"I Survived Project 2025" | Tia Levings | TNE Podcasts

追加: 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]Hey friend, thank you so much for watching this podcast interview. As always, make sure to like this video and subscribe to the channel. And please enjoy this conversation from the new Evangelical Podcast Archive.

[00:00:39]Tia Levings, it is good to have you on the podcast. Thank you for making time.

[00:00:42]It means a lot. And welcome.

[00:00:44]>> Thank you. And I've been very much looking forward to this conversation and I I hope we get to all the goodies.

[00:00:50]Well, I I I I think we're going to I mean, the book that you wrote is called A Well-Trained Wife: My Escape from Christian Patriarchy, and I was like, okay. Um, you know, what's interesting is a lot of what we talk about sometimes is kind of like out there, like, hey, there there are these people out there that believe in the Quiverful movement and they want to take over the country and they believe in patriarchy. It's not every day you have someone on the show who's not a scholar of this stuff, isn't a theologian, is a embodied lived experience of growing up in a world like that that can share what their experience, what that was like and and kind of why what what led you to leave and everything. So, I'm I'm excited, if that's the right word, to have you on the show because I think your story is so powerful uh for for many many reasons. So, yeah, again, I really appreciate you you making that time. I mean, how you I'm sure you told this story quite often. you wrote a whole book on it. How do you usually go about the beginning of this? I mean, do you want to kind of give just some of your background and kind of start at the beginning and we can walk through it?

[00:01:50]Does that work for you?

[00:01:51]>> Sure. Sure. I will say like from the outset, the reason why a memoir is so important is that I'm living I lived through what project 2025 brings. So, if your listeners are familiar with what's coming in the government and what's currently unfolding, um my story is not just a oh well that happened and now she's out of it. It's it's a both end.

[00:02:15]It is a deconstruction story and it is a literal story of of escape and what happens at the extreme of this spectrum that we're on. Um but it's also foroding and and a forewarning of what's coming and what it's like to actually live in the patriarchy. I often say that how the patriarchy wants to run the country is how they run their homes. And so that's why it's so vital that we look at what well what is it actually like to be in um say for example what's it like to live in Speaker Johnson's home? What's it like to live in um you know our Supreme Court justices homes where patriarchy is so entwined with their Christian nationalism that it can't be separated out anymore.

[00:02:53]>> Um that's not a new phenomenon. It's just on the national mainstream stage.

[00:02:57]So >> I Yes, that makes a lot of sense completely. And I I appreciate you. I mean, >> I say often that I don't like sounding hyperbolic, but this is not hyperbole, right? This is real stuff and that is embodied and it it should scare us to get us motivated to really do everything we can to resist this because you're right, Project 2025 and many other movements are incredibly terrifying for everyone except for abled white men accentury essentially, you know, and that is a problem.

[00:03:23]>> And it's actually not very good for them either. I mean, on the surface it does.

[00:03:27]It looks like, oh, they'll have all the power, but that's not healthy and it's not advancement. It's of civilization.

[00:03:33]It's not progress, >> right?

[00:03:35]>> Um, >> this is um it's important to know like when you're watching like The Handmaid's Tale and you feel that pit in your stomach that it could be real, it's I always say my story is like the prequel to The Handmaid's Tale that this is it's really happening. It's playing out in real time. And um it's important I think to hold a a both and um kind of parallel here.

[00:03:58]>> Um where I often start with my story is the subtitle that they'll go escape escape from Christian patriarchy. What does that mean? Right?

[00:04:06]>> Because they don't really think it's literal and it is it does involve a literal run at midnight with my children narrowly escaping a murder suicide. So there is this like very specific graphic visceral escape and then there is the 10 15 year journey I spent deconstructing patriarchy and escaping it in my mind because it is um it's here and I think I spend every day actually more afraid that the life that I worked so hard to escape and risked my life and my children and lost everything to escape is actually coming for us now. It's actually coming for my neighbor. It's coming for my friends. it's coming from my country. Um, like I ran so hard and so fast and I, you know, did all this work, but um, at the end of the day, it's possible it's just going to be our national norm. Um, and that's that's what terrifies me more than anything.

[00:04:58]>> 100%. 100%. So, so maybe we'll start here. Where did you grow up and like how did like give us some of that backstory like like where where does this take place in the US? Are we talking like New Jersey where I am? Are we over in Boise, Idaho territory? like where are we in this story?

[00:05:12]>> Yeah, the majority of the book takes place in Jacksonville, Florida. I and this is the most relatable portion of the book. Um, and I started here for a reason. I grew up in a um Southern Baptist mega church in downtown Jacksonville, Florida in the 80s and 90s. And that was politicizing and becoming more um fundamentalist as I matured. So, you know, I moved there in ' 84 from Michigan. Um, I spent my first 10 years in Michigan, which I think is really formative for my character, um, and my personal coping mechanisms and perspective. But we moved to Jacksonville when I was 10, and it became this like just what you do.

[00:05:49]That's what good Christians do. They join a big church. They join the big flashy powerful church. And I entered what um, a lot of um, evangelical listeners will relate to in purity culture, modesty culture, just a good youth group. group. I mean, it was so hard to deconstruct in the beginning because >> I went to a wealthy church that made sure we had a good time and my my youth was ski trips and choir tours and I played in the orchestra and it was six days a week and it was so much fun. And so for a long time I couldn't see how that groomed me for the decisions that I made in adulthood that got me into such high extreme fundamentalism um because it just seemed so wholesome and mainstream which is exactly the point.

[00:06:30]What do you mean by that? By by by by by looking back now you see that there are things that were grooming you to what would end up you know leading you into a more fundamentalist extreme of this?

[00:06:39]Like what what kind of things are we talking about? Is is it just purity culture? Is it modesty culture? Is it you want to be a good submissive wife and let your husband lead that kind of stuff? Or was were there other things happening as well?

[00:06:49]>> Kind of all of the above. I mean I was groomed as a woman in a complimentarian society to subjugate myself. And so by the time I was 19 and I get married young to the person who shows up and says, "I want to marry you." I'm ready to interpret that as, "Well, God's he's God's best because he's he thinks God told him to marry me." And now it's time for me to get my mind around that. And I'm gaslighting myself when I when I meet like abuse, for example. Um, I felt like little as much if God is in it and that we can fix anything through prayer.

[00:07:24]And so I blew past red flags because I'd been conditioned to re reward them, reframe them and and uh and accept this life. And so I I married very quickly. I met somebody who um was very charming, would not have been able to keep that act up for very long, but we were very much strongly encouraged from the pulpit to have short engagements very quickly so that we could stay virgins for our wedding day. Like everything hung on your virginity for your wedding day. And so um there wasn't a lot of time for discernment or letting things play out and let someone show who they are. You know, let them you a lot of times with narcissistic personalities or or just um any kind of mental illness at all and they can't keep it up themselves. So if you let them have enough time, they will reveal who they are, their character will be there. But um there's in that in a culture where it's do it quickly, get get engaged quickly, get secured quickly. Um it it's one of the ways that the system itself plays against health.

[00:08:23]Um doesn't mean to it's not like they're not trying to get you looped in with abusers. They're just refusing to look at this at how their behavior sets the stage for that.

[00:08:32]>> Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense.

[00:08:34]That's really helpful. So So you're part of this big mega church that's part of the SBC network in Jacksonville, Florida. Someone walks to the door and essentially says, "I choose you, Tia."

[00:08:43]and you go, "Okay, this must be God's best for me." Because to your point, and I let me just say the story I tell, it's it's a little more light-hearted than this, but it's similar. I had someone who I was not attracted to in any way tell me, I you know, God told me we should get married.

[00:08:57]>> And I was so in I was so conditioned to think that people are hearing from God in that way that for a couple days I was nauseous, sick to my stomach, thinking, "Oh my gosh, like I have to get my head around this." And I I just can't and I'm I'm terrified. Now I look back now. I mean, I was like 18, you know, it didn't work out, which is fine. It's It's funny now, but in that moment, for those first few days, I'm like, it never dawned on me to say, "Well, God didn't tell me. I just believed it." Right. Exactly. So, I Yeah. So, I mean, it's again not a one for one, but I have a similar Maybe in the same pool. I'll be at the shallow end of something happening where I was like, >> "Oh, but God told you, but but I I I'm not sure how I don't feel this way at all towards you, but now I have to believe it. And now I'm envisioning my future with this person. I'm just getting all worked up." So I understand how that can happen.

[00:09:43]>> Take out the obvious gender parallel there and let's look at authoritarianism.

[00:09:48]As young Christian kids, we're conditioned to not think. Like if someone tells us God said it, then we believe it. We are not conditioned to be able to debate or argue what somebody says God says. So I had the double whammy of that with gender of of a man a man said this. And then um my you know was it was blessed by people I respected and and elder people you know that except for one guy one pastor dared say I don't think you two should get married.

[00:10:17]>> Um but it was too late.

[00:10:19]>> Now I at this point in the story with your faith were you kind of like an allin I want I want to be the best Christian I know how to be. I want to be all in for Jesus because I I see I hear a lot of similar patterns and I'm one of these people who who also was all in for Jesus. you know, looking back, I'm like, "Wow, I could have been on a pretty radicalized path." So, was that where you were at at this point? Is that part of why it was maybe not easy, but but why you had no problem going along with this is God's best, I want to be all in for God, you know, my whole life exists to serve God and serve my future husband, etc. Is is that kind of the the theology at this point?

[00:10:50]>> Kind of, especially externally. I go into the book about how I learned to compartmentalize and split myself so that >> um the parts of me that I struggled to surrender um were always in deferment to what I what I knew was right. I was a very good rule follower and I had been um groomed to fawn you know and and obey rules in exchange for love. So I really did believe that if I didn't obey the rules I wouldn't be loved.

[00:11:16]>> Um and my structure all signals pointed to that. you know, you have to be obedient in obedient culture to get um >> to get love and to get acceptance. So, >> um I in the book I'm very transparent and I share my struggle with what that was like and what I had to give up in order to push myself into that box. But I think that's also a really important point because I think when we're talking about coercive, high control environments, we tend to other the villain and make it sound like the big bad other did this to us and maybe not look so much at how well we also did this to ourselves and this is why we did it to ourselves and um and what conditioned us to self-subjugate and self gaslight so thoroughly that we would choose against oursel even when it came to matters of safety and happiness.

[00:12:01]Like if someone had like take your example, you spent three days nauseiated about it. But what if the outcome had been different and you decided, okay, I'm going to get married because this person said it. And >> um and that entire those daily choices that you would have had to make in order to stay in that life chips away at your personhood over and over and over again.

[00:12:19]So that you know, we see the divorces now. We see the ones where they're in their 30s and 40s and they're like, I'm just been unhappy since day one, >> right?

[00:12:28]>> Um yeah, 100%. I mean, I I agree. I think the only reason why it didn't work out is because of the gender difference, right? Because I as a man was able to say, "No, sorry. I can't do it." Right?

[00:12:37]Like there the the same power dynamic is not in play here. Um so I I'm with you on that.

[00:12:43]>> Okay. So you get married at age 19, you said.

[00:12:46]>> Mhm.

[00:12:47]>> And are you still involved in this in this mega church at at this point?

[00:12:50]>> Oh, it was my whole life. It was my whole life. I was in the orchestra. My parents were in leadership. Um like I said, six days a week. I performed in multiple services. is I mean it was my whole world and it was a world within a world you know that verse um be in the world but not of it we had a whole separate society and we came up in a time when that we had everything if we wanted a different bookstore we could have it if we wanted a different movie we could have it still today you know there's still a parallel I call them Russian nesting dolls were like a country with >> Totally Feature films for families bro I I got all those movies I I got the VHS's sent to my house all I I can name you a dozen of those off top of my head that I watched And right now, congratulations.

[00:13:30]By the way, today as of this recording, God's Not Dead 5 trailer just dropped.

[00:13:34]So, there's a fifth God's Not Dead coming out. So, you're right. It's # bless. It really is um a parallel economy of sorts of of this underground world that if you're not in it, you know nothing about it. If you're in it, you know everything about it. And so, so, so far in the story, okay, I'm tracking with you. And so far, I can I can relate to different experiences. Okay. Yes.

[00:13:56]mega church culture, this culture, that culture.

[00:13:58]>> When do we start going from like what is pretty much, I hate to say it, but standard SBC fair overall to like this really intense what you said earlier, this extreme on the one end of the spectrum patriarchal nightmare that that that that you found yourself in >> very slowly and we and very slowly but very very easily. You're a parent.

[00:14:19]>> Yeah. Yes. I have two kids under four.

[00:14:22]>> So, you've experienced newborns. Um >> we I have >> I have I have Yes.

[00:14:30]>> Yes. Well, I very quickly um found myself pregnant.

[00:14:33]>> Um at this point, I was surprised by that. I was on birth control pills. I was newly wed. Um I have a violent sexual history with my husband, so it wasn't anything that I expected to be pregnant.

[00:14:45]>> Um and I was really trying with my whole heart and soul to be a good Christian wife. And I had a volatile spouse who was very devout. Um but he also was very erratic and um I my mindset was that I can fix this. So when my baby was born, I had been a nanny and babysat and I was very good with babies. I was not worried about infant and child care. What I was worried about was how to keep my baby quiet at night so that my husband could sleep so that we wouldn't have increased violence. Um and so it was that mathematical. I need help. Where am I trained to go to help? I go to an older, wiser woman according to Titus 2. And in my church and in churches all over the country at this point in the story, which is 1996, Bill Gothard's IBLP was spreading within churches. And the Gothard's um evangelism method, if you saw shiny happy people, they did a really great map of this where people would go to these conventions to to attend a bib uh biblical principles.

[00:15:42]Basically, it was institute and basic life principles. And this was all about the Bible. So it crossed all kinds of denominations.

[00:15:49]>> Yes. and their method was to evangelize within churches. So, not only were we a culture within a culture, but now we're a church within a church. And so, there was Gothard homeschoolers on the rise in my mega church. And we knew them by their um I call them their special Christian hallmarks in my book. Um long skirts, big families, homeschooling, alternative lifestyles. They're like the ultra-conservative, which at that point was still interpreted as ultra holy, um, special Christians in our church that just did Christianity a little step harder than the rest of us. Um, they're very beautiful on the outside. Who doesn't love rows of shining children, um, little obedient babies, you know?

[00:16:29]So, I thought, I'm going to a professional mother. She's got 10 kids.

[00:16:32]They're all redheaded. Um, they look just like me. and she's going to tell me how to be a good mom and and be a what do we call it? Um, keepers of the home.

[00:16:43]She's going to she's going to help me be a good wife. And uh, she mentored me.

[00:16:47]That's why I have this video series. If anybody's familiar with my social media work, I have a series called things my Gothard Fundy mentors said I could skip to have a quiverful. And so my lessons began in >> the things that quiverful families just don't do because their focus is on having as many kids as they can have >> and they're very practical. So this overlaps the tradife surge that we're seeing now. It's the same thing with different language and it is a simplified back to the land, back to the simple, complimentarian, clear roles, um, lifestyles that help you prioritize procreation because you can't send your kids to college and and use disposable diapers and, um, commercial baby food and put them in public school. You can't do all that and have 18 kids. You have to make certain choices that facilitate that kind of quiverful mindset. So um for me it started very very practically homeschooling, home life, home motherhood, basically motherhood, the things I wanted for myself because I was having babies rapidly by now. Um but my there's two big things that were missing.

[00:17:53]>> Um >> because I had a dysfunctional sexual life with my mentally ill husband, we only had sex about once a year and I was on contraception, different contraception methods that failed over and over again. So, in 14 years, I have nine pregnancies, five live births, four surviving children, and only one of those children was like, I want a baby right now. Please give me a baby right now. So, I can just tell you that some of my story is very like um external and um very clear-cut. This is the progression of how it goes. And then there are just things that happened in my life. I was a fertile person, married to a fertile person. And and I think children are supposed to come when they're supposed to come. I very much wanted five babies.

[00:18:39]And I think I think my willpower and my love for them overwhelmed contraception. I think that's >> a pretty dare I say miraculous series of events, you know, based on what it >> Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So So, so you always you did want multiple children.

[00:18:58]That was like part of who who you are as >> T. Maybe not one a year, but Yes. Yes.

[00:19:02]>> Right. Right. Okay. And so, and I'm sorry if I missed this when when some of the audio cut out earlier, but this person who's mentoring you, is she encouraging you like, "Yes, like this is what you should do. Just like have baby after baby." Is is is she like someone you're working with like like almost every week you see you're at church and oh, so and so, so good to see you. You know, she's a part of your life kind of mentoring you in this.

[00:19:22]>> Does she use the wordful? Is is is that language that that is used on the inside of this or >> not as a movement, but definitely as a goal. So, um, the the the verse in scripture is, "Children are like arrows unto the Lord. Happy is the man that has his quiver full of them." So, if you want to go into war, you want as many weapons as possible.

[00:19:40]>> And if you're fighting a culture war, then you want dominionism. You, it's dominionism through population.

[00:19:46]>> So, we were encouraged to um have as many babies as possible, one right after the other. And it's important like my mentor, I talk about her in a singular fashion, but there's about 10 12 goth women at this point that are all sending the same message. And it's not in violation of what I'm hearing in the mainstream church, the the mainstream evangelical movement. My pastor was president of the Southern Baptist Convention. So, I have really a foot in both worlds. And this narrowing just seems like a more holy way to be devout.

[00:20:19]like we're just really surrendered to God.

[00:20:21]>> Well, that's what's so interesting, right, is I I totally see this pipeline of how you can be in like a typical evangelical mega church and you can say these things of like, you know, I just want God to bless me with with as many children as possible. They go, "Oh, that's so great. I I we yes, have as many babies as you want." They might not be thinking or even aware of the term quiver or what it means in that world, but it's a very easy progression if you want to follow God, you know, especially as a woman, right? and you want to you want to be like Eve and be like the the birther of humanity, so to speak. Okay.

[00:20:52]Well, then I to do that, I need to follow God better and have as many kids as possible. It's a very easy >> slope. It's not it's not a far leap at all to go from that to where you ended up, you know, one step at a time.

[00:21:05]>> Especially when there's no counter information. So, one of the things I do in my work all the time is say, uh-uh, know them by their fruit. What is it actually like to live in a quiverful home? what of what abuses and neglects are being covered up. And so if you listen to survivors and you center survivors, um you're hearing stories of parentification, education neglect, extreme poverty, sibling incest in the case of the Duggars and so many big families that I know. It's a common problem. It's like it's an it's a very poorly known secret that it's a open secret. Is that what they call it? when everyone knows it happens, but um you're just supposed to like tighten control, you know, to make sure it doesn't happen. Um centering survivors will tell you everything you need to know about what it's really like to live in the quiverful movement, but that was not information that I had available to me. That if it was all idealism, the whole thing was um either scriptural backup or what Mr. Gothard said or what God wants for your life.

[00:22:05]And it was this one pastor leads to another pastor kind of chain of influence. And we're all trying, you know, we're all in this endeavor together. That's one of the >> curses blessings of congregational experience is that you are in this together. And so I felt very affirmed and my struggles felt like not that unusual. Everyone's having them. But there was no evidence of what what is this outcome actually like? Is this going to lead to really happy, healthy children? Because any outlier was vilified and cast off. So there's no there's just no access to proof is in the pudding or fruit from the tree.

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[00:23:39]>> What was you said that your ex-husband was abusive physically, I'm assuming also emotionally. What was >> and spiritually? All of all of that.

[00:23:46]>> Yeah. Just just an abuser. He was capital A, you know, just all all of the above.

[00:23:52]>> 14 years, nine children, right? So, um >> nine pregnancies.

[00:23:56]>> Nine pregnancies. Apologies. Thank you.

[00:23:58]Nine pregnancies. You mentioned earlier on in the conversation, you said that that one of your biggest concerns was keeping your newborn quiet so your husband wouldn't wake up and set him off. So now you're doing this for not just one, but multiple children at some point over the course of so many years.

[00:24:12]>> What was that like? What did it do to you having to walk on eggshells in your house knowing that at any moment he could go off and do something erratic that could hurt either you or your children?

[00:24:23]>> I got really good at hypervigilance.

[00:24:26]really really um studied at every step of the process in the cycle. I own most of the violence myself because I thought it was my fault, my sin, my uh reaction, my like I did something wrong to cause it, my worth. Ultimately, we get down to my worth as a human being, which is just underscored by the theology. His theology was narrowing. We we eventually land in Calvinism in in very high control reformed Presbyterian congregations. And so >> like like Joel Webbon.

[00:24:56]>> Exactly. Exactly. This is the to my point that it's like in the mainstream and they can talk about it. My deepest secrets I used to hide and now they're on social media being promoted as an ideal. It's terrifying to me.

[00:25:10]>> Um but yes, exactly like that. And so I usually internalized most of it and learned to navigate it and assumed that that was my duty as a supportive wife.

[00:25:18]He had a hard time struggling with um and managing his life and organizing his life. should have had doctors and medication and resources, but we were, you know, the parallel secret here is in the evangelical world that we were in, you weren't supposed to rely on psychiatric medicines, doctors, therapists. Um, and they were overtly forbidden in our god environment. So, um, he didn't have the resources that he needed and so the help me role escalates. You really do have to help your husband control himself.

[00:25:49]Um, was this all and forgive me again when you cut out it may maybe I missed it but um were you is this all happening while while you're part of this mega church in the bubble in the bubble or are you part of a new church now that's smaller a little more intimate like like where where are you in the journey church-wise with all this at during these like 14 years >> where we're at in the timeline is we stayed in the mega church until our megaurch pastors um really had a problem with this this movement within their church not using the church nursery and the year was You weren't using the church nursery.

[00:26:20]>> No, you're not. No, it's family. You're familiar with family integrated church movement.

[00:26:25]>> You know, I got to be honest. I hear a lot of stuff. I am not familiar with that term. So, let me tell you, you're going to teach me something today.

[00:26:32]>> Family integrated church movement was a countermovement. Again, started in these conservative circles and and influenced mainstream evangelical churches. And it was for families to sit together in church. No more Sunday school. It was the father's role to teach his children.

[00:26:47]And so you have family I know exactly what you're talking about because there are a few people on Twitter doing this >> Yes. Yes. Follow who are promoting this.

[00:26:55]Yes. Home church >> and family churches. That's where >> there's a term for this. There's a term for this.

[00:27:00]>> Absolutely. You can Google it. You will >> just to be clear to the audience. The idea of home church is not necessarily bad at all, but what you're talking about is a very specific flavor. Oh my gosh. Okay. Wow. Okay. Sorry.

[00:27:11]>> Long before Partridge. Long long before that. Yes. Yes. I'm connecting dots live on the air with you. Okay. Oh my god.

[00:27:18]Okay. Sorry. Did not mean to interrupt.

[00:27:20]>> I believe the origin is Doug Phillips of vision forum. I cannot confirm that is I would have to go through the way back machine to find the blog post.

[00:27:28]>> But the family integrated church movement was a push to have disband the Sunday school movement. It was a failed experiment was their was their position.

[00:27:37]And that um it was the father's job to teach his family. And so at the very least you're sitting together in church so that you can see dad con endorses what we're hearing from the pulpit. At the very least >> um we had a multi-million dollar nursery at First Baptist. We had 11 city blocks of buildings and so our pastors were not happy with their Sunday school program not being complied with and they did not like the sounds of little children interrupting worship.

[00:28:01]>> It became such a tense war because now like is this church pro- family or not?

[00:28:07]you know, they they sw they changed the conversation.

[00:28:10]>> Very powerful men eventually pushed that out. And so they moved the whole Gothard like church within a church, which at this point was not just Gothard. It was um kind of like the homeschooling movement as a whole on the rise in in evangelical world in the late 90s, early 2000s. I was picked up.

[00:28:29]>> Yes, you're probably a child in this movement. Picked up and moved to to various smaller churches. And so there was a small country church. They took over. Now in my story, big things were happening. I had my third baby had a heart defect. Her story is in the book.

[00:28:43]She was born with a heart defect. And um it was ultimately fatal. We went to Atlanta for two months which changed my life. Her name is Clara. I talk about her all the time, but she's a huge pivot in my ability to hear myself think and what I really believe and what I'm willing to say or not say because in this world, I was not allowed to really openly grieve or focus on it too much. I was expected to move on, have the next baby, um give God the glory, celebrate that she's in Jesus now, you know, blah blah blah. And I was like, there was no no room to really mourn. a little, you know, they give you a little couple months a week or something. Yeah, couple months. But I was broke. I was completely broken, cracked open. Some of it was beautiful, you know, I was beautiful. My I felt fully alive for the first time and I really understood life and death. I had never lost anyone before my daughter. So, um, >> yeah, that's >> the whole experience is is is an intense part of the book.

[00:29:42]>> Um, and I spoil it for two reasons. I want readers to be ready for it, but I also want to show how impactful it was to go through such a viscerating um spellbreaker. I mean, my mental escape really does begin with Clara's death. And it what takes me another seven years to get my body out, but the mental questioning and challenging and thinking for myself really begins at that point. So, we were at this small country church when that happened. So, just to tie that together is um I don't want to be careful about giving a play-by-play spoiler of the book, but but as far a benchmark goes, this is 1999. We're at a smaller church and it's now one of those congregations where everybody is of a like mind. And you'll hear like the like mind language come in a lot because of course you want to worship with people who think just like you do, >> right? You don't want you don't want your ideas challenged.

[00:30:37]>> Of course, that would be a problem. that would be liberal or something at at this point for you and the church you're in.

[00:30:44]Is it political broadly? Like meaning I understand that there are people out there who are like this is how we want to live. This is us for no more. Here it is, right? And for many reasons it that can still be very problematic because it affects people as as you're telling your story, right? You're you're proof of this.

[00:30:59]>> Got that? And we should address that.

[00:31:02]But it seems like over the past couple years, and you you you and I mentioned this off air, we've seen this kind of grow to well, not just me and my family or my church, but like really America and like all churches and all of society should be kind of underneath this like quiverful patriarchy uh you know kind of Joel Webbon and uh movement.

[00:31:22]>> Did you hear a lot of politics in in the early 90s 2000s when when you were in these small churches? What what was the vibe?

[00:31:27]>> Yeah, this is another reason why I do the work. This is so intentional where we are today. The seeds were planted in the early 2000s and it really started um overtly for me right after at Y2K. Y2K was a huge um galvanizing fear-based situation where all the prepping came in and all of the like um Armageddon talks seemed very um immediate. Um and and they it's important I think to remember all of this is latches on to our fears.

[00:31:59]um what we're what we want to be prepared for down to our eternity. But certainly if we get left here and we have to do any kind of coping um dominionism which at the heart of this fundamentalism is seven mountains mandate. Yeah, >> I don't know if your if your listeners are ready for that, but if they >> they if they listen, they should be they should be very very aware of they should be aware of R.J. Rush Juni, seven mile mandate, Lance W uh Lance while now and and and also Christian Reconstruction.

[00:32:27]They should be aware of all those things at this point.

[00:32:30]>> This is okay. So it's that's this in in a lifestyle movement. And so while you might look at the outside and think this is just about how devout you are with your family life, at its core it's all of those things. And so they planted those seeds, the the conversations really started shifting to raising future politicians, >> um ra grooming your males. And this this becomes um a very subtle dividing point that I that I hope everyone latches on to. When you're focused on grooming your young sons to become future leaders of America to make America a holy nation so that we can then take dominion of the globe, you are also neglecting the rel the education of your daughters because they don't need education. They need to be put into this other track. And so it's like a um you split you split the equality stops. Like if there ever was equality, which there never really was.

[00:33:25]um it becomes more profound and distinct at the at the point of educating your kids. And so the there was a lot of pressure um to be very patriotic, to know our founding fathers, our our original documents. And it was not this is so important. It was not because they value religious freedom for all or they they value the freedoms that we have constitutionally protected. It's so they can have them. So in order to take control so that they can then remove them because their model of government is what they're going to replace it with. So when they talk about religious freedom, they are not talking about we're going to have plurality and we're going to have the Muslim commandments on the wall or anyone else. Like there's not that's not what they mean.

[00:34:09]>> Yeah. No, come on. Of course not. I mean all you have to do is is listen to to Doug Wilson one time when he says that villain in my story.

[00:34:19]>> Oh, okay. Yeah. You know, it's interesting as you're talking I'm like this sounds very much not this is not N.

[00:34:25]This is not New Episcopic Reformation.

[00:34:26]This is Doug Wilson Reconstruction RJ Rush Jr. 2.0 reformed a Presbyterian kind of world that we're in right now even though there is some overlap in some weird ways. But you're absolutely right. I mean, Doug Wilson and I' I've we had a a journalist who worked with us for a while actually interview him for a podcast segment and we have him on on video on audio saying in his lifetime he wants to see Christ as Lord put in our constitution. Like this is not about religious plurality. This this is not about about democracy. This is not about giving people autonomy. This is about quite literally taking what's going on in your small church back in the '90s and mapping it on to laws in America.

[00:35:06]replacing American laws with what what they would call as biblical law, right?

[00:35:10]Which is again very debated, but yeah.

[00:35:12]No, totally. I'm This is It is crazy to Anyway, I'm I'm It's not about >> because you know yourself. Yeah.

[00:35:19]>> I am so I'm impressed and I'm I'm grateful that you get the connection because I haven't even mentioned Doug Wilson yet, but that you could recognize his footprint. Of course, we were reading him. We were going to the homeschooling conventions and buying his little books and I >> Yeah, he he has a whole he has a whole home school curriculum. Canon Canon Press published a case for Christian nationalism by Steven Wolf who's a kinist which means essentially he wants people to stand in their own ethnic boundaries. Does that sound familiar anyone? I mean if you take it's it's all there. This is not like secret right? We're not looking at like I had to go undercover in Doug Wilson's shirt on Twitter. He's going on he's going on on Tucker Carlson and saying this stuff to millions of people. So anyway, yeah, continue on. I always say that with um >> when there's like a um a counterargument that there it's just as bad on the left or just as bad anywhere else. No, I'm like no, no, no. You don't understand.

[00:36:08]This is systematized. They meet every Sunday. They share their strategies openly. There's conventions full of the same things. It's it's so deep, so long, such a long game. And the only real hope I think we have at freedom is individual minds seeing through it. Understanding that actually no, that doesn't give us the outcome that they're promising. This is not heaven on earth. Wilson's world is oppressive to women and children and it ruins men, destroys psychological health.

[00:36:36]>> Totally. Not to mention, he's a slavery.

[00:36:38]He's a slavery apologist. He married off a known pedophile to someone in his church. Like the dude is problematic.

[00:36:44]And for the record, I can't say who it is. There are churches that are very conservative in that area who have a real problem with Wilson because they know what he's trying to do. So even in his own tribe, there are people defective. But again, this is not a Doug Wilson, you know, conversation and and that we meaning we well we what I'm trying to say is we don't have to park here if you don't want to, you know. I mean, I'm happy to talk about as long as you want. But yeah, I mean it is absolutely the world that that we're breathing and to see it come more and more public. And again, when Tucker Carlson interviews someone, that's a big deal. And the fact that Doug Wilson was on Tucker Carlson to tell you how normalized this movement is getting uh in the American psyche.

[00:37:18]>> Yes. And I'm I'm disturbed by it that Wilson is my number one biggest villain in my story 20 years ago. This was um I think we started reading him in 2003 around the same time we learned of the Duggar family. And that he is actually more popular and has a wider reach now.

[00:37:35]>> Totally.

[00:37:36]>> Is mindboggling to me because he looked like an old fart back then. He looked like an old antiquated Michael Pearl.

[00:37:43]That's how we learned about him through Michael Pearl. Um I thought, well, this guy, you know, like when I escaped in 2007, I thought these old guys would eventually die. They're all still publishing. They're all still popular.

[00:37:55]Their their works are still being shared and they're actually in the court now.

[00:37:59]So So and there are new and there's new faces that are younger than me that are doing this. You have Joshua Hayes who's a big part of this now. You have William Wolf as a part of this. there are people who are my age or younger who are totally allin who areworked with these people uh pushing it even farther you know so I I I I never really buy the well the next generation is more progressive like there's always going to be your far right people who are going to carry the torch and we have it just is what it is we have to be aware of >> especially when they're those are the children of the movement that those are the babies that were chosen they were they were conceived in order to fight this war >> and they were raised in order to be the weapons against the west this is the quiverful come to to come to life. Um, so I don't know where we want to jump back in to the to the overall story, but that is where it ultimately leads.

[00:38:45]>> Well, yeah. I mean, we left off you had this this tragedy happened in your life that that you said in in a way really woke you up to like being able to think for yourself for the first time and really start saying like not the first time, but really starting to listen to your inner voice, maybe is a better way of putting it. I I am curious, you know, maybe we while we have a couple minutes left, we can talk about some of like your your your way out of this, right?

[00:39:08]Because you're obviously in this world.

[00:39:09]Your whole family is established there.

[00:39:11]Your children are here. You have several children, etc. And now you're starting to wake up internally and saying, you know, I'm not going to buy this anymore.

[00:39:19]Something is way wrong. A couple of my questions are maybe we can start here.

[00:39:23]What were some of the things that you started to really wake up to that that you were like, "No, something is way wrong." like what were some of the elements?

[00:39:31]>> Yeah. So, my story gets a lot more a lot more violent and high control from that point actually because really it isn't it can't it can't abide by a woman who starts to have opinions. Um I started growing and learning and there's this wonderful thread in my story of how I >> um self-educate and I and awaken to knowledge and support and I it's it's a really wonderful part of the book. Um but the that then now we have more conflict right because the high control really can't handle um a woman who who knows her mind and even though I was trying to be such a good I was using my strengths in a progressive Christian way to know you know to be the best wife and mother I possibly could be and there's finally joy in life coming back into our lives. Um the control increases over and over again. and I end up in a um in a covenant church that believes in wife discipline and it is part of the hardest part of the book. I know the look on your face and bless you. Um >> I'm afraid for any more details that you discipline your wife. It means you spank your wife the way you spank your children. And it's and the again it's one of those extreme moments that is there on the page. The progression is relatable. You're going along, going along, relating, relating, relating, and then what? This happens. And I can promise you my inbox, anytime I talk about it, my inbox is full of metos. So, it definitely does happen and is part of this choice. People who choose this life are opening themselves up to that expression of it. And it might not be their plate and their cup, you know, that might not be what they're handed, but it does exist and it is a part of this world and it is happening actively in those congregations that we just talked about. It is part of that. And the thing is no one will talk about it.

[00:41:17]That's that's where my work comes apart is that I lived through it, escaped it, did the psychological work it took to talk about it without retraumatizing myself. And the reason why I share it is because I know how far it goes and I know that I almost died in it. And I don't want that for my fellow American.

[00:41:33]I don't want that for my fellow Christian. I don't want that for the progress of our time, you know. And so the idea that I would live through all that and then not say anything about it and just watch it happen was unconscionable to me. It was like a double trauma of like I lived through it was bad enough, but now to be silent about it is just creating more harm, perpetuating more harm, which is what patriarchy I think does. grooms, perpetuators, and then perpetrators. Um, and I didn't want to be that. Like, as I woken woke to my own complicity, >> I started wanting to not be that person.

[00:42:04]Um, and not the o the book opens with my come to awareness that, um, I'm grooming. I'm creating the next generation of women, men who hit women, and women who stay with men who hit them.

[00:42:17]>> And I'm not willing to do that to my children. So, um, so the escape process begins. And it is it is a process of concentric circles. You know, there is the the visceral physical escape and there's a lot of mental escape that has to happen and then there's the fallout from trauma itself. Like trauma recovery and trauma healing is an entire whole new process. So much so that I'm writing a second book on that just this it's called the soul of healing and it's >> it's how you come back from something like that so that you can get to the place where you talk about it openly and and share. Um it's it's a whole another thing. So, um I think it's complex and deeply personal and deeply transparent and the feedback that I'm getting particularly from men who read it is that it's extremely cathartic and they feel validated. So, I I think that it's a good choice that I made to share. Um >> yeah, I don't I don't know where you want to take the rest of the question, but that's that's where the the work goes. What was it like when you finally escaped um physically? You mentioned at the beginning that that your escape was a real escape at midnight. You know, that was like it was a real thing.

[00:43:27]>> So, you escape, you find your body somewhere not in that world, somewhere safe, quote unquote.

[00:43:33]>> And now your mind and brain probably starts catching up and is like you're thinking to yourself, what did I just go through? That's got to be a Mount Everests size obstacle to to to climb and get to the peak of and then kind of descend, right?

[00:43:49]>> It was >> what what I mean I'm not asking for all the details. I'm sure you detail it in your book and you're writing a second book which I which for sure we'll have to have you back on to talk about this in more depth, but >> what was it just really >> I'm sure they were full of aha moments.

[00:44:06]And when you had those moments, what did that feel like for you when you were like, "Holy I've been abused. Oh, I was not only was I being groomed in a way, I was now starting to groom my own children." Those are massive aha, like lifealtering, life shaking moments.

[00:44:23]>> Yes.

[00:44:23]>> What was that like having those awakenings?

[00:44:27]>> Fortunately, I had those awakenings as language was becoming available for them. So I think that just as the the fundamentalist movement in evangelical churches unfolded according to my character arc and age, you know, was a child, the reverse happened when I got out. I got out in 2007. We didn't have the term religious trauma yet, but it came shortly after. Um, and we didn't have exeangelical, but that came, Instagram came. So like the tools that I needed were available to me as I was making those discoveries and having those ahas. And it was like an excavation deconstruction process because I didn't know I was abused. I didn't use that language. I didn't um >> once I once I accepted that I'd been abused, I was very focused on the individual my husband was and I didn't want to look at the system we came from and how that >> acted. And then I for a long time thought that it started with my wedding.

[00:45:19]And that's not true because there's a reason why I stayed with him through an abusive dating period and why I let him choose me. what what made me what made me comply to someone saying, "Sure, I'll marry you because you said that I'm supposed to marry you." There's all a process for that. So, you know, when we get eventually back to the my earliest religious trauma, which is heaven and hell teaching at four years old. Um, and so that that deconstruction language and having those kinds of tools available as we went, um, I'm so grateful for because it would have been so much more daunting without verbiage. It's a big part of my work now is just learning to and helping others um name their experiences. Just finding out the words of what to call what happened to them sets it's like a key in a in a lock. You know, this is what will unlock the way forward if you know what to call it.

[00:46:08]>> What um where are you with faith now? I mean she I'm sure it's loaded to question but I mean no one would ever fault you at all. In fact, many might actually celebrate if you were like, I have nothing to do with the church or the Christian God. People would be like, I I I freaking get it. Like, you know, respect. It makes sense >> for for for you. Are you somewhere where you're like, you know, um some people might say, hey, in my journey, Jesus really held my hand through it all. And other others might say, >> if Jesus was there watching, why the hell didn't he do anything? Right? So, I can see how people can have both reactions. Where are you with faith now based on on where you're at and and based on your story?

[00:46:46]>> Yeah. I'm going to answer the question then I'm going to explain why I answer it this way. Okay.

[00:46:49]>> So, okay. What I say is that I'm spiritually private now. And I say that because privacy for something as deeply fluid and personal as spirituality was denied from the very beginning. We were supposed to have this very public profession and and we're supposed to stick to the decisions of early childhood. You know, I got saved when it's a 5-year-old and I'm supposed to stick to that and then I'm supposed to bear my spiritual soul on demand. And I don't do that anymore. So, um, I give my the gift I give myself is a private spiritual experience. Um, >> as far as congregational worship, I don't understand why I would need that anymore. I think I've had quite a lot of that. Um, if Jesus and God are truly omnipotent, then they are fine with my questions. And there's just a lot of beautiful spiritual discovery to find along the way. And I just try to be open and curious and deeply anti-funddamentalist. I am someone who loves that question because I want to answer you right. I want to answer in a way that you will accept me and I have to be aware of that in myself that no as soon as I say it I'm putting myself in a box and someone else is feeling like oh you're the either in this camp or this camp and those are polarities. So I really try to avoid those. My work is dedicated to staying curious and open and looking for fundamentalist thinking in our entire like my entire in culture, entertainment, politics, spirituality, all of it. Um, binaries are very comfortable.

[00:48:15]>> I really love that answer. I think that's a really beautiful thing to say.

[00:48:20]Actually, I've reclaimed that part and it's private and no one needs to know.

[00:48:22]And I'm like, that's great. Like, I'm all about it. So, I appreciate that. I think that that that's a really good answer. Well, the book comes out August 6. So, we're going to release this right around that that launch date. So, friends, if it's before or slightly after, please pick up the book. It's called A Well-Trained Wife: My Escape from Christian Patriarchy by Tia Leings.

[00:48:41]Tia, I mean, there probably could be an entire documentary or even movie based on your story, based on the little we talked here. I think at some point it would be good to good to have you back on for a part two, maybe after the book comes out, talk about about more of the healing process because I think a lot of people, you know, you never fully know who listens to a podcast, right? I mean, I I don't know. I don't have names and faces behind whenever I say post and who listens to it, but I do know for a fact that there are a lot of people who find us who >> maybe were not in in your exact situation, but are in high control patriarchal environments in their own flavor. The last thing I want to ask you is what would you say to someone who's currently in a situation like this?

[00:49:19]Maybe they're listening, they're going, "Oo, I see a lot of red flags now based on this conversation." What is your advice to them?

[00:49:26]Spend some time with what kind of questions you're allowed to ask. And if you're allowed to ask questions, because if you're not free to say no, then you're not free to say yes, it's non-consensual. That's number one. Um, and that touches everything. But curiosity is the biggest threat to high control. And if you're allowed to be curious and sit with someone who's different than you without converting them, if you're allowed to read a book without threat to your all powerful God, great. You're probably in a safe place.

[00:49:54]If stuff's restricted because it's so threatening to you or the big bad other is going to get you, um, then you need to start looking at fruit. Follow the fruit. That's this is that is a biblical tenant. It's a comfortable place to start. Know them by their fruit. Applies to everything. Um, and start looking at some of the outcomes and survivors of these ideologies.

[00:50:14]>> Yeah, I love that. All right. Well, Tia, thanks for coming on and we'll talk again soon.

[00:50:19]>> Yes. Thank you.