His position on Gender Affirming Care is ILLOGICAL || JOVAN DEBATES

追加: 2026-05-13

[00:00:09]Coming up next is Daniel. Daniel is calling about topic number four, gender affirming care for minors. Daniel from Arizona. Daniel, if you can hear me, please provide me with your age and pronouns.

[00:00:22]>> 29 and him.

[00:00:26]>> All right.

[00:00:28]>> No problem.

[00:00:29]All right, Daniel calling about topic number four. So, Daniel, I do believe that uh gender I I believe in gender affirming care for minors because it's been shown to help reduce distress and improve well-being when done under medical supervision. Do you disagree?

[00:00:45]And if so, why?

[00:00:50]>> I would say I disagree probably 90% of the time. I'm sure there's circumstances that would would make sense, but I think most circumstances would not make sense for most children because we don't even trust children to smoke, drink, drive.

[00:01:08]Uh what is the other? Like most things you can't even do. You can't enlist in the military. There's most things you can't do. Like smoking once isn't going to ruin your life or drinking once isn't going to ruin your Really quickly, just really quickly, I can you can drive at 15.

[00:01:25]>> Well, sorry. I meant like my bad. I should have specified like you can't rent a car.

[00:01:30]>> Like, >> sure, you can't rent a you can't rent a car until you're 25.

[00:01:34]>> Should we up the age of driving to 25?

[00:01:38]>> No. But I mean they don't trust kids to like do that but we want to trust them with their bodies to like mangle and chop up their bodies at such a young young age where bodies >> aren't one day they want to be a firefight fire and the next day they want to be a police officer and the next day >> Daniel I just want to I just want to confirm here you understand >> that per like current standards of care you can't get surgical interventions like bottom surgery till you're 18 Oh, so you're just talking about drugs.

[00:02:11]>> Well, I would be talking about the type of gender affirming care that's age appropriate, which >> Oh, okay.

[00:02:18]>> under 18 is going to be things like social affirming care, uh, pubertal suppressants, HRT, and then top surgery.

[00:02:29]>> Top tops. What do we Oh, like like chest area kind of thing.

[00:02:34]>> Yes. surgery to your top.

[00:02:37]>> Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's why Okay.

[00:02:39]That's what I just want to make sure. Um All right. But then I guess I haven't looked into it too much. Um >> do you know of like any negative effects of those >> um medical treatments you were just describing?

[00:02:53]>> All medical treatments have negative side effects. The conversation needs to be be about are those do those negatives outweigh the benefits? And in most instances of gender firmare, they do not.

[00:03:05]And in most one more time, sorry. In most >> in most instances of gender affirming care, the benefits outweigh the negatives like 100 100%.

[00:03:15]>> Okay. Okay. And is that like do you would you say that's for like 100% of the kids that feel like confused about the g their genders or is there like a threshold or is it like >> it's going to be about for 97% of people. We know that the regret rate of gender affirming care sits at about 3%.

[00:03:38]So it's 97% of people they they what's the word I'm looking for? Uh they don't regret this care. So that means that this care is beneficial to them.

[00:03:51]>> Well, what's the what's the threshold for determining when that's the appropriate move to make?

[00:03:58]>> Well, that would be determined by doctors.

[00:04:03]So, who knows? It's going to be different. It's going to be different for every person.

[00:04:07]>> Your doctors tend to be the ones that recommend specific types of care >> or if you want the care, your doctors will evaluate if that care is appropriate for you.

[00:04:20]Is it based on any like biological anomalies anom anom anomalies with that person or is it just based on their um mental state?

[00:04:33]>> Is it based on sorry is it based on any biological anomalies? I don't know what you mean by that.

[00:04:40]>> Well like like her herafodites right I for I think that's not the appropriate term anymore. It's not >> but yeah but is if it's if it's just based on more of a mental state >> so you would be talking about >> you want to constitute >> you would be talking about interex conditions so this would be differences in sex development um oftent times surgical inter intervention is used for interex conditions um but those are typically done much lower in age. Um, unless the the condition isn't found out until adulthood. Um, when it comes to gender affirming care, that typically isn't happening because of some interex condition. Like when we're talking about transition care, >> I guess. Yeah. My thought process is like, why are we just leaving it with a doctor? If it sounds like it's more of like a mental state kind of thing, wouldn't we want to get like a therapist or psychiatrist probably >> involved in that situation?

[00:05:47]>> So I see the confusion doctor.

[00:05:49]>> When I say doctor, yeah, >> they are included in that because they are also doctors.

[00:05:55]>> Okay. Okay. Oh yeah. I just thinking like medical doctor. Yeah. For >> Yeah. Okay. Um what was it? Uh, sorry I was I lost my train of thought on one thing I was trying to say. Um, so if we're if we're thinking that just a medical doctor Well, I guess again, so we're just saying it's an individ individual basis.

[00:06:27]Like would you say that if a child was to say one time and one time only like, "Hey, I think I'm the wrong sex." Is that the right move to just act on that?

[00:06:37]>> No, because current standards >> current standards of care require six months of consistency, persistency, and insistency on that gender identity. So, if they do it one time, no, they wouldn't be recommended for care.

[00:06:55]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:06:58]I'm glad I'm talking to you though because I thought people were pushing a little harder for more extreme cases.

[00:07:03]But sounds like there's some uh logic and reason behind most of these people that are actually talking about this. So that's good to hear.

[00:07:10]>> Yeah, we've had we've had pretty concrete standards of care for like the last seven years, eight years.

[00:07:18]>> So >> well, do you do you think that it's more of a fad for most kids? I mean, I know growing up and >> if it was a Fed, we would see we would see much higher drt transition rates, but we don't >> or people are like too afraid right now of like community whip like like whiplash or whatever or back um that's not the right word like um just getting like yeah alienated from the community if they were to detrans. You're more likely to be alienated from your community if you are trans >> than you are if you are not trans.

[00:07:59]>> So they've already experience the alienation coming out as who they who they like are.

[00:08:06]>> Well, then they can get alienated by the group that they that only accepts them now if they if they backpedal.

[00:08:12]>> Well, the other group start accepting them again.

[00:08:16]>> What?

[00:08:17]>> The other group typically would start accepting them again. So they must go from one group to the other.

[00:08:22]>> Yeah, possibly.

[00:08:23]>> Yeah. Unless they're like a part of like a religious fanatic kind of group originally or something like that. But yeah.

[00:08:34]All right. Well, I guess I'm glad that I talked to you because it actually sounds like more reasonable than I thought. So, >> all right. Well, then Daniel, do you agree minors deserve access to gender affirming care?

[00:08:49]I believe in certain circumstances. Yes.

[00:08:52]Yeah. I mean very few but for certain circumstance circumstances make sense.

[00:08:59]>> So your position hasn't changed much.

[00:09:02]>> No. I mean I still have my concerns personally and with my family and others that you know it could be it could be a fad for certain people like it was with the gays and the lesbians for a while there. But that that kind of thing is a lot easier to to backpedal out of if you don't think you're actually gay or lesbian.

[00:09:23]Getting hormone um hormone treatments and all that other kind of stuff could be >> Sorry. Maybe I just wasn't alive in the ' 90s. I was, but maybe I was just not conscious, I guess. What do you mean when it was a fad for people to be gay and lesbian?

[00:09:44]Well, yeah. I mean, I've seen it growing up, too. A lot of people when I was at school were just like acting like they were gay or lesbian just because they thought it was cool, but they they were still actually straight, but they would just act like they were or they would like be by for like a month and then they're like, "Oh, never mind. That's not my that's not the thing I'm into."

[00:10:03]It's like whatever. You just did it for >> Well, was it for likes or were they just exploring their sexuality?

[00:10:11]Also, how do you know they're not still by and they didn't just get backlash for being by, so they just went back to saying they weren't by anymore?

[00:10:20]>> Yeah, I guess that's true. But I just Yeah, it's what people talk about when they or if you're involved with them sexually, too, and you're like, "Yeah, obviously that's not the case."

[00:10:34]>> Okay.

[00:10:38]I don't know, man. I mean, there's lot a lot of fads. There's always a fad with kids and this seems to be the fad right now for most kids.

[00:10:44]>> No, I'd say the fad right now is like 67. I wouldn't say it's being trans.

[00:10:50]>> That's true.

[00:10:53]>> That 67 is annoying as hell.

[00:10:55]Yeah. I don't I don't know what else to say, man. I mean, yeah, I still I'm still iffy on it myself. I I can see what the numbers say, but who knows? I mean, it's still Maybe it's still too early to tell. Maybe the numbers will skew dramatically in the next couple years. I mean, They lie about data all the time.

[00:11:10]>> They haven't even remotely used cigarettes were good for you too back in the back in the day.

[00:11:17]>> But that's because big tobacco as an industry made massive profits off of cigarettes.

[00:11:25]>> Well, medical industry is making a lot of money chopping up kids or giving them hormones or whatever, right? I mean, >> you know that you know that like it's very rare that a child receives medical gender affirming care. They're really not making that much money off these kids.

[00:11:39]Yeah, but if they really get it rolling just like they did with with with cigarettes back in the day, right?

[00:11:44]Cigarettes weren't popular popular at first, but they when they got it going, that's when they started making the money.

[00:11:49]>> Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. What if the government stepped in and they said, "We're going to handle gender affirming care. We're going to remove the profit incentive out of it completely for big pharma, right?

[00:11:59]We'll handle it all. Big pharma makes no money off of this. Doctors make no money off of this." Now, do you support it?

[00:12:07]Well, that okay, that's tough because we all know that government still makes money one way or another. They shouldn't. I know they shouldn't, but they're gonna they're >> in the scenario I'm giving you, they don't. In the scenario I'm giving you, they don't make any any profit off of it.

[00:12:21]>> Yeah. Well, they Yes. In theory, well, in practice, they shouldn't, but they're going parameters of the hypothetical is that they make zero dollars off of it. That's the parameters of the hypothetical I'm giving you. So, if it was the case that the government made zero dollars off of this, would you now support gender affirming care for minors?

[00:12:48]I think maybe a higher threshold. Like 6 months might not be enough. That might be tough. But I get it because you might miss the window to where it it's more it could be um more complicated for them at that point. So it's a it's a sensitive topic for like six six is really six months long enough. I don't know it there's just too many variables still that don't that maybe haven't been properly addressed.

[00:13:16]>> What variables specifically?

[00:13:19]>> Well like yeah like the six months is that really appropriate? Should it be a year or two? But but I can understand, right? Like you could miss the appropriate window to where the drugs could be the most effective. Are the do the drugs actually have like do we know all the side effects now or could there be more side effects that we aren't aware of yet? Because obviously these people haven't been alive.

[00:13:41]>> Let's say there's 50 let's say we go 50 years into the future.

[00:13:45]>> Okay.

[00:13:46]>> Mhm.

[00:13:46]>> None of this everything is the same.

[00:13:48]None of this has come. There's been no none of that. Now, you would support gender firming care for minors.

[00:13:57]>> 50 years in the future, we know that the drugs aren't have like like massive side effects. We know that um you know, people aren't making a ton of money off of it. We know that there isn't a high rate of um what's it called? Uh like re not rejection like like you had the right word. I'm sorry. I forgot what it was. Like backpedaling, but yeah. Um, and then uh what was the other variable?

[00:14:26]Um, there was another variable that I think I I had, but yeah, I just Yeah, like six months still. So, but like maybe they'll maybe they'll get a better number. Maybe they'll find out it's eight months.

[00:14:38]Maybe they'll find out it's a year.

[00:14:39]Maybe >> this is my issue. This is my issue with with the rejection of the care is every time I I assuade this position, you're still like, I don't know, I don't know.

[00:14:51]It feels like you just don't you feel icky about the care. It's not about any of the actual numbers. It's I could quote to you all day studies on the positives of gender affirming care, how we see a positive dec uh a positive reaction to it, how there is benefits both mental health and overall outcomes from the people that take it. It's just that you don't like it. You just feel icky about it and that's your objection.

[00:15:14]>> Well, yeah. I mean, yeah, you could probably say that. I mean, it's just so new. It's like it's still I feel like it's in its infancy, right? Like there's >> we've been doing these treatments since the 90s. This isn't new.

[00:15:26]>> That's 30 years of data.

[00:15:29]>> I know.

[00:15:31]>> Yeah. But, uh I don't know. like just just accepting it wholeheartedly could I feel like have massive re repercussions, right?

[00:15:40]What if people in the debate universe in the debate universe >> this is called a slippery slope policy.

[00:15:48]>> Okay, you're saying we shouldn't do this thing even though there's mountains of positive evidence for it because what if somewhere down the line something majorly negative happens but you can't really show how that negative will happen. It's called a slippery slope fallacy. It's like, okay, but it's just it's just a facious argument.

[00:16:09]>> I know. Well, it's it's tougher with this one because like saying we should lower the age for smoking to 17 by one year, it's not going to be lifealtering probably as much as, you know, somebody getting hormones or, you know, surgical treatment, right?

[00:16:24]>> We make lifealtering decisions for children daily.

[00:16:29]>> Daily. M >> some of which that are permanent like we do it all the time but for some reason this lifealtering decision people have issues with >> well I mean yeah I mean like vaccines you don't really you can't really see the signs right early of like the repercussions of it right just some days somebody might start showing symptoms right if you're doing gender affirming care right then you're you're messing with somebody's reproductive abilities you're messing with you know how they see themselves how the world sees themselves and maybe that might affect them later down the road like right now they accept it but what if they don't later or what if other people don't accept them like it's just what if it makes it harder for them on life I mean it obviously does make it harder >> again Daniel we have the regret rates they don't regret these they weigh these benefits and negatives and they find that the positives outweigh the negatives overwhelmingly M >> I guess yeah, I guess I'm just not fully slow s sold on it and you know I understand that you want to sell me on it, but >> it's not it's not about selling you on it, David. It's about at least getting you to the point where you acknowledge that your reason for not liking it is just because you find it icky.

[00:17:46]>> There is no solid reasoning here. It's just I don't like it because it's kind of weird to me.

[00:17:56]>> Yeah, I guess I guess it is. It's just I don't know like it it it argues against like biology and and like science, right? It goes against everything that we that we we know that like is the norm. And that's just how society is, right? We're we are hard to transition. And it's not like people are trying to be mean about it. It's it's just it's it's tough, right? Every transition in society is tough for people. It's tough on people. Like I'm here talking with you because I'm trying, you know, to understand. Um I'm not gonna flip the coin in a day, you know. Um that's so I mean I guess maybe just try to understand that's where people coming from a little bit.

[00:18:36]>> Sure. One of the things that when it comes to stuff like this is it's very hard for someone to logic their way out of a stance they didn't logic their way into. You know what I mean? So, I'm not asking you right now um like to change, but I'm saying hopefully you sit with this, maybe come back and listen to the call later and just recognize that you're not making a stance from any logical position. You're literally just going, I don't like it, so therefore we shouldn't do it.

[00:19:13]Yeah, I guess I could I can understand why why you see it that way and I I can understand why that you know doesn't sit well with people so I can respect that.

[00:19:24]>> Okay. Well, then move on to the next call then. David or Daniel, whatever your name is. Sorry.

[00:19:30]>> Yeah. No, you're good, brother. Daniel.

[00:19:32]>> All right. Um have a great rest of your day, sir.

[00:19:36]>> Yeah, sure. Thank you for calling in.

[00:19:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. Take care.

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