What Saves? The Church? Or, The Gospel?

Added: 2026-05-06

[00:00:00]Yeah. Yeah. Let's go straight at it, Doc. What saves a person, the church or the gospel? Because depending on your answer to that question, you will shape how people understand conversation, assurance, conversion, grace, obedience, and even who they think is in and who they think is out.

[00:00:23]Well, and and for a lot of people that's raised around the Church of Christ, um, and their teaching, this this question isn't theoretical.

[00:00:33]>> Yeah.

[00:00:34]>> It's personal.

[00:00:35]>> Uh, because many of us were taught in ways whether directly or indirectly uh to believe that being in the right church was the central issue.

[00:00:47]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that if uh in fact if the the church is right and the structure is right and the name is right and the worship is right then the steps are right and therefore salvation is basically secured because of that.

[00:01:03]>> But we need to ask is that the gospel or is that a system >> and if salvation is being framed uh mostly in terms of church correctness or being right?

[00:01:15]>> Yeah. Have we unintentionally shifted attention away from Christ himself?

[00:01:22]>> Yeah, man. Listen, today we are talking about what saves the church or the gospel. Listen, this is unfiltered and unapologetic episode number 10, season finale. It will, you already know. It's going to be everything we told you it was going to be because we know we stepping into high water right now.

[00:01:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hope you got your popcorn. Hope you got your Skittles and your M&M's and your Diet Coke >> and your peanuts and whatever you snack on.

[00:01:52]>> Listen, this conversation matters because bad theology doesn't just produce bad arguments, it produces confused people. Yeah.

[00:01:59]>> And so today it's going to be really heavy.

[00:02:01]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, let's let's just be honest, be plain. Um the church does not save.

[00:02:10]>> Yeah.

[00:02:10]>> The gospel saves.

[00:02:12]>> Yeah. Yeah. More importantly, God saves us through Christ and the benefits of that salvation are received through obedient faith and in response to the gospel.

[00:02:24]>> And that matters because the church is not the savior. No. Uh Jesus is the savior. The church is his body. It is his people. His he is the redeemer of the community. But the church does not replace the Christ who purchased it. And I think that's really at the core of this conversation where I want you to hear us clearly. This is not an attack on what it means to be the church, but more so this is to address the posture the church take takes in how we play as an agent of salvation. Sure.

[00:02:58]>> Uh and uh and I think that's really important conversation to explore.

[00:03:02]>> Sure. Sure. When you shift ownership of or responsibility of salvation from Christ to the church, right, >> what you're really doing is shifting it from Christ to the people.

[00:03:18]>> Yeah.

[00:03:18]>> And you idolize yourself as your own savior, right? So it's really an important theology. So the distinction here is huge. Yeah. um uh when you idolize or or or uh prioritize church alignment more than Christ uh you become deeply religious without ever understanding grace, faith or the gospel itself.

[00:03:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so as I ask many people that I sit down with uh and even as it gets to the core answer of this question uh does the gospel save? And it sounds right. uh but here and we have to explore deeper what in fact is the gospel because if we're vague then there'll be a lot of vague everywhere and everywhere else.

[00:04:09]>> Yeah. So let's just start off you know um being direct and honest. The gospel is not find the right choice and do the right things in the right order.

[00:04:21]>> Yeah.

[00:04:21]>> The gospel is not lay your hands on the TV.

[00:04:25]>> Yeah.

[00:04:26]>> Right. The gospel is not purchase this prayer tower.

[00:04:30]>> Yeah.

[00:04:30]>> Um that's not the gospel. The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ.

[00:04:35]>> Yeah.

[00:04:36]>> And what he has done or what God has done rather in Christ Jesus. It is his sinless life. It is his sacrificial death. Yeah.

[00:04:47]>> It's his burial. It's his resurrection.

[00:04:50]It is his lordship. His victory. Yeah.

[00:04:53]is his call for sinners to repent and believe and submit their lives to him.

[00:05:00]Yeah. That is what the gospel is.

[00:05:02]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so therefore by that is it's simply an announcement >> uh before it becomes instruction. The gospel is news before it becomes law.

[00:05:12]It's what God has done before it's what we must do. Uh and I think that's really what we have to spend some more time peeling back the uh the layers of the onion. Uh because at the end of the day, we have to know what the gospel is and might you know if you have a critique with this start there.

[00:05:32]>> Start with whether or not our positioning here is right. Uh and right based upon your understanding the Bible, based upon your understanding of what the scripture says, what the gospel simply is. And what I've also noticed, Dave, is this is that we've conflated what the gospel is. M often times when I'm sitting down and I'm asking people what is the gospel? Somebody might say the gospel is the word of God. Somebody might say the gospel is this or the gospel is that and I'll say stuff like yeah the gospel is the word of God. But it's more something that is more specific. It is a specificity of the the word of God. And the specificity of the word of God says the gospel is the good news about Jesus Christ. That's what the gospel is. Now associated with that gospel, we also get into the other doctrines of the church per se. Uh but I I think that when you deal with the gospel, you have to deal with it in its entirety. It's not just about what we do, it's about what Christ has done.

[00:06:32]>> Yeah. No doubt. No doubt. As a matter of fact, um what Christ has done. And let me just say because I know some people think young preachers are getting too liberal. So let me give you the Bible. 1 Corinthians 15 in the Bible >> um outlines what the gospel is. 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and then Romans 6 will outline the our response to the gospel. Right. Yeah.

[00:06:57]>> Um and so what we're not trying to do is we're not trying to um make the human response irrelevant. Yeah.

[00:07:06]>> Um uh but it is simply that a response.

[00:07:10]It is because God acted first that we respond to what uh God did for us.

[00:07:17]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And therefore, obedience is not the gospel, but the gospel calls us to obedience.

[00:07:23]>> Uh and so when we deal with uh some of the questions or some of the prompts that we could even spend some time pulling on, have some churches reduce the gospel to the response plan. uh uh and that's what we we could spend some time talking about that even as it relates to in our own tradition we deal with the five steps of salvation uh what gets lost when the gospel becomes merely steps instead of Christ's saving work you know we become more fixated on what we're called to do and we fail to recognize what he has done >> you know and therein you know in so many ways we walk within even the Christian uh uh community the Christian uh um uh ideology or worldview and we walk in it almost with a type of mentality that re-resurrects law.

[00:08:14]>> Yeah.

[00:08:15]>> You know, and we fail to recognize that we're not here based upon keeping a law, but we're here based upon the grace of God uh which is a gift of God in and of itself. Man, I remember uh years ago I I don't nearly get as approached by this as much as I used to cuz I I guess I don't go to those kind of churches anymore. But I was I was preaching at a church and and I remember I had a sermon literally about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

[00:08:43]>> But I didn't give the five steps, you know, he believe, repent, confess, and be baptized. Right.

[00:08:49]>> And and an old woman approached me and said, "I didn't preach the gospel."

[00:08:54]Yeah, >> because I didn't respalized >> and warped in our view of what the gospel is that you can hear the death, burial, or resurrection of Jesus >> and still think a person hasn't preached the gospel because they didn't say here, believe, repent, confess how the church of Christ says come to Christ, right?

[00:09:26]That our call to Christ becomes essentially it be it replaces the the call to the of the gospel. uh it replaces the news rather of the gospel and thereby the call of that news. Sure.

[00:09:39]>> Uh which is I like what you did when you went to uh Romans 6 of course for those who are wondering uh 1 Corinthians 15 I think it's verse 1 through 3 or 4 uh where Paul says moreover brethren I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you the gospel which you stand you heard you receive whereby you also are saved unless you believe in vain. uh and talking about keeping in memory of those things which I preached unto you. And then he says, "And how I declare unto you Christ died according to the scriptures and how he was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures."

[00:10:13]>> Then he goes a little further. He says, "And how he was seen of Cphus and the 12 and all these other things." What does that what does that do? And I think that there's more there that Paul is arguing in the context of first Corinthians, but >> essentially the message is Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. That is in fact y'all the good news of God.

[00:10:32]That's the good news of what God has done through his son.

[00:10:35]>> And Romans 6 says how one is called to believe that. That if we believe the gospel according to Mark 16:15 16 Jesus says go into the world preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Now that's where we get off on talking about the importance of baptism. And therefore, I would argue baptism is essential.

[00:11:00]>> Baptism doesn't save.

[00:11:01]>> Yep. No doubt.

[00:11:02]>> Baptism is essential. Baptism doesn't save. What saves? The gospel saves.

[00:11:07]>> And baptism becomes essential a part of that plan of what God has done. How?

[00:11:12]Why? And why? Because the the baptism is where we do what we believe. Sure.

[00:11:18]>> Well, what do we believe? We believe Jesus Christ died, was buried, rose again. Romans 6 according to what you've said is where the Bible says when you know uh shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How can you who are dead to sin continue therein any longer? Know ye not as many of you as were baptized into Christ or baptized into his death. You were buried with him in baptism and just as he was raised uh even so you shall be raised into the newness of of the father. And so when you get into this, baptism is essentially where we obey.

[00:11:52]>> Yeah.

[00:11:52]>> It's where we obey what Jesus Christ did. All of it is predicated on the gospel of Jesus Christ. And if that's not the case, then anything you're doing in baptism becomes only a ritual of getting wet.

[00:12:04]>> That's right.

[00:12:05]>> All right. So that's what we hold to.

[00:12:06]That's what we now we got to say that because if you don't say that, many of our Church of Christ brothers are going to come at our head, you know. But but but but this is what I'll say. At the end of the day, it's about what the Bible teaches. Never about what the tradition substantiates.

[00:12:25]>> Sure. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. Yeah. The baptism, >> repentance, confession, all of that is a response to the gospel. Yeah. You can't get around that, you know. And so when I hear the good news of Jesus Christ and what he has done, it ought to prompt me >> Yeah.

[00:12:43]>> to do something, right? Acts chapter 2 um um when when they heard this they were pricricked in their heart and said men and brethren what shall we do? Yeah.

[00:12:53]Right. It is it is a response to the gospel of Jesus Christ. All right. So in this conversation um this is where it gets in incredibly important in church of Christ spaces uh in particular because many of us were taught very a very strong connection between obedience and salvation.

[00:13:12]>> Yeah. And to be fair, obedience matters.

[00:13:15]>> Yeah.

[00:13:16]>> Right. And and but how are we understanding obedience, I think, is is the question that we need to ask.

[00:13:23]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, let's say uh say it really I think we got to get it clear. Uh the belief that if you do what the word instructs or commands, you will receive what is promised. Uh that principle is not automatically wrong. In many biblical contexts, that's exactly how covenant responses work.

[00:13:43]>> And that's what I want to get at the heart of. If you do literally what the word instructs or commands, you receive what is promised.

[00:13:51]>> Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. No doubt. No doubt. But the problem comes when that truth is flattened into a mechanical formula.

[00:13:59]>> Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:14:00]>> Right. when salvation begins uh to sound less like trusting Christ and more like um uh correctly completing a doctrinal transaction and and it and quite frankly that's where legalism lives because legalism is isn't just caring about obedience. Legalism is treating obedience as if its power lies in precision itself instead of in the Christ to whom obedience uh is responding to.

[00:14:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. And and in legalistic environments.

[00:14:37]>> Yeah.

[00:14:37]>> People can can start asking questions like did I say the right thing?

[00:14:42]>> Yeah.

[00:14:42]>> Did I understand enough?

[00:14:45]>> Was the church correct enough? Yeah.

[00:14:48]>> Was my baptism done enough? Yeah.

[00:14:51]>> Uh in the proper way by proper people with the proper theology.

[00:14:57]A and before long assurance is no longer in Christ.

[00:15:03]>> It's in perfect theological sequencing.

[00:15:08]>> Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a difference. There's a difference uh when we look at it. What is the difference between biblical obedience and legalistic system building? M uh how do people move from trusting Christ to trusting their own doctrinal precision?

[00:15:23]>> Uh can someone defend truth while actually missing the heart of the gospel? Uh which I really think often times happens. And so yeah.

[00:15:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this brings us to one of the hardest questions.

[00:15:37]Um, what about this mindset that says the right church teaching what what's right saves?

[00:15:47]>> Yeah.

[00:15:48]>> But the wrong church teaching what's right doesn't save.

[00:15:51]>> Yeah.

[00:15:52]>> Can I say that one more time? Yeah, please. This question, this mindset >> that some people have that says the right church teaching the right doctrine is what saves.

[00:16:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. But the wrong church teaching the right doctrine doesn't save.

[00:16:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is where I think uh some inherited uh theology starts uh to expose its cracks.

[00:16:20]Uh if a person hears the gospel, believes in Christ, repents, confesses him, and is baptized in submission to what scripture teaches, what exactly are we saying? Save them. you know, and uh and and their accurate understanding of uh ecclesiology, you know, or their obedient response to Christ. I think which one of those is it is it either of those that that's actually saving?

[00:16:47]>> Yeah. Yeah. Because if we if we say that only the right church can produce a valid response, >> then we have made the institution the gatekeeper of grace and salvation in a way that scripture doesn't do. When really >> um only Jesus >> Yeah.

[00:17:07]>> I feel a word coming. Only Jesus >> um can save and does save.

[00:17:13]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if we and if we need to be even uh I think we got to be careful uh because I want you to be clear. I want to be clear with you. Yes, we are saying doctrine matters and uh and yes error matters too and yes the church matters >> but we are willing to admit that sometimes our formulations go beyond what scripture actually says. Yeah. No doubt.

[00:17:37]>> And that's the problem.

[00:17:38]>> No doubt. No. No doubt. No doubt. So if if someone I in honest sincere obedience and submission to Christ um obeys the gospel, are we really prepared? Are we qualified? Are we capable of invalidating their response to the gospel just because it happened outside of our approved label?

[00:18:07]>> Right. and and and and I've got I I've got a a serious issue with making that claim and it deserves serious scrutiny.

[00:18:17]And so is a person less saved?

[00:18:20]>> Yeah.

[00:18:20]>> Because of the hands of the person that baptized them.

[00:18:24]>> Yeah.

[00:18:25]>> Even though the person being baptized was baptized in obedient faith, right?

[00:18:30]How does that invalidate their salvation?

[00:18:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think that's I think at the core of this conversation. I I then go back to restorationist history.

[00:18:41]>> Uh where we know that uh what we know as the church of Christ in America context comes out of this restorationist history. Alexander Campbell, Barton W.

[00:18:53]Stone, of course, there are many writers that speak to this. Richard uh Hughes, uh Leonard Allen, those are some of my favorite who who talk about these issues of of restoration uh and go a little bit deeper with it. But you know, some questions that we tossed around when we were at seminary, when we were at Southwestern and other places is at some point the right church language can become a way of protecting tradition >> more than defending truth. Yeah. Uh and uh and so for me uh when I start to kind of get at pulling at the thread of that conversation or that question, I'm left to think about it's almost like what came first, the chicken or the egg?

[00:19:32]>> That's right.

[00:19:32]>> You know, and so then if we're if we're dealing with tracing church of Christ history and restoration this uh era, then who baptized the first disciples of Christ? Who baptized the first believers of the church then? Uh, and were these people rebaptized once they said, "Okay, well, we walk because Alexander Campbell, B Stone, B Stone, what comes out of the uh, I think Presbyterian and uh, Alexander Cameron, Thomas and uh, and Thomas Campbell, his father, they come out of Baptist, I think Bapt Presbyterian. Well, Baptist and Presbyterian. So, it's a mix, right?

[00:20:11]CLC.

[00:20:11]>> Thomas was Presbyterian. Alexander was Baptist. Yeah.

[00:20:14]>> Right. Okay. And so um and so then what what we what we deal with with that is is you start to look at the fact that did they start over when we get into this renaming and and I know that there's more to this story right you know that you can really look at it academically scholastically uh and historically but here's the point you know if we're mechanical then you know and literal and legalistic then I think we're going to place a lot of emphasis on each step, each move, uh who's responsible, whose hand it is, who does the baptizing, all these other things. And I think that's where we go a little bit too far.

[00:20:54]>> Yeah, absolutely. Man, I I'll tell you yesterday I attended um a funeral at the Primitive Baptist Church down in Mount Area, Arkansas. M >> and I had heard about the Primitive Baptist, done a lot of research, done a lot of reading um on them and um I knew that they do not use mechanical instrumental music. But as I was sitting in in uh that funeral service yesterday, um they did not have um uh they did not have um instrumental music. They did.

[00:21:34]They They had one microphone at the pool pit. Yeah.

[00:21:38]>> Did not allow women to >> use the mic, right?

[00:21:41]>> Use the mic at all. Like, yeah.

[00:21:43]>> You know, they had to stay down on the floor, not come up to the pull pit, all that kind of stuff. And I thought, man, this looks so much like, man, this looks so much like >> um the old Church of Christ. Yeah, >> it it it looked vastly different from your church or my church, but if you grew up in the old church of Christ, >> it the structure, the flow looked exactly like that. And I don't know what the preacher preaches about salvation or anything like that. But my question is, you know, for those who are staunchly legalistic is if perhaps their preacher teaches a doctrine about salvation that lines up with your doctrine of salvation and if they worship without mechanical instrumental music and and don't even do what some of the more conservative brethrens in our fellowship, you know, lament about is in terms of bass mics and praise teams and things of that nature.

[00:22:50]>> If somebody came from over there, >> would you deny them?

[00:22:54]>> Yeah.

[00:22:55]>> Being a part of your fellowship because of who baptized them?

[00:22:59]>> Yeah. And I think that's I think for me, you know, if we if we're honest, I think that's the problem that I have with, you know, I I I applaud the need to defend the faith, >> you know, um and uh I admire the faith of men and you know, with Church Christ.

[00:23:22]So, uh I mean I had some of my best teachers were women. Mhm.

[00:23:27]>> Um I always tell folk my first pastor or preacher was uh Dr. Joyce Kathy.

[00:23:34]>> Mhm.

[00:23:35]>> Uh uh Southwestern Christian College.

[00:23:38]Now she didn't call herself that she was oily. You know, she was oily. No doubt.

[00:23:43]>> Another one uh uh Dr. Phyllis Davis.

[00:23:46]That's right. you know, the historian, you know, and uh these are are women who have been very >> uh uh who have played a very profound role in my own formation.

[00:23:57]>> Uh and so, but back to the men because that's how we typically are led and we need to have a whole conversation about that too, not just for our Church of Christ listeners, but but I I want to really speak to to uh some other issues there.

[00:24:11]But what I'll say is that in conversation, one of my one of my teachers used to say, uh, Dr. Onelius Krenshaw, uh, God rest his soul, man. That's the expositor himself.

[00:24:25]>> No doubt.

[00:24:26]>> Where he would say, Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

[00:24:28]He would say, >> "Everything I teach, I believe, >> but I don't teach everything I believe."

[00:24:35]>> Sure.

[00:24:36]and and that has been the way we've kind of postured ourselves even today. And I really think that that's really the issue for many of the people today.

[00:24:47]Let's be honest like like older preachers, seasoned preachers, you know, let's let's talk about this, you know, let's have a conversation.

[00:24:54]>> Sure.

[00:24:55]>> Is the issue really the fact that we're abandoning the teaching of scripture?

[00:25:01]Yeah, >> that's what's said.

[00:25:04]Or is the issue the fact that we are ignoring the etiquette?

[00:25:10]>> Yes.

[00:25:11]>> The etiquette of hey you might believe it >> but don't teach everything you believe >> because it creates a problem within the system.

[00:25:22]>> Sure.

[00:25:23]>> I think that's the conversation man.

[00:25:25]Man, I would love to get if we could find somebody honest enough, >> I would love to get, you know, a couple of them on the the the program who would actually admit, man, I believe exactly what you're saying, but >> but I can't teach that, you know. I man, that would be so dope if we had because I have sat with a lot of older preachers >> Yeah.

[00:25:51]>> that if you get them in private >> Yes, sir. They will affirm what these quote young preachers believe, right?

[00:26:01]But but they will never say anything about it publicly.

[00:26:06]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:07]>> Uh for whatever reason, you know, man, >> and let's be honest, man, you we make this an issue of young preachers.

[00:26:13]>> Yeah.

[00:26:14]>> But y'all, come on. Let's be honest.

[00:26:16]Like, we had >> we had many influences before we ever got to this space. Like Paul, I'm reminded of even Paul's words when he talks about, you know, to the to the shepherds, you know, take heed of the flock of which the hol holy ghost have made you overseers and how grievous wool shall enter the flock coming from some of you.

[00:26:36]>> That's right.

[00:26:37]>> Uh and and this and this notion idea if we're dealing with and treating elders is that some of the people who aired per se, that's what we're saying happened is we're were older. We had older influences. Yeah. like don't make young preachers the issue when at the end of the day we had uh mentors and and influencers and and people who came before us but matter of fact they they walked so we can ride.

[00:27:07]>> Yeah. And I think that's the challenge today. And so are we riding so rapidly, especially in an age of social media where everything that you purport or you you say it it it it it travels fast, right? It travels fast. Uh and therefore maybe the fear is >> well if you say that then what else?

[00:27:29]What other theologically does it upset?

[00:27:32]And I think that's the challenge.

[00:27:33]>> Yeah. And and another another thing I'm probably going to get shot for this but unfiltered and unapologetic. So >> another thing is I well first of all I don't like systems at all but >> I could almost understand if I saw the benefit in the system.

[00:27:54]>> Yeah.

[00:27:54]>> Right. Like but when the I don't see the benefit of the system and the system continues to um keep people out so that a certain people can stay in.

[00:28:10]>> Yeah.

[00:28:10]>> Um I I don't see the benefit of that.

[00:28:12]Um, but even more so than that, I almost think that the culture has changed to such a degree.

[00:28:23]>> That, >> excuse me, people have access >> to information.

[00:28:29]>> Yeah.

[00:28:30]>> At their fingertip tips.

[00:28:32]>> Yeah. You know, I I remember, you know, and this probably happens every Sunday and I just don't know it, but I I remember specifically preaching at one church um in Dallas and I made a claim about a text um historical claim and soon as I I made it, um I looked over and saw three people pull out their phones and Google it like right there.

[00:28:58]like >> because that that speaks to the degree of how much people have access to information and how quickly they have it. And so for our generation, I I don't even think that we have the liberty >> to tow the party line anymore >> because the folk that we are dealing with are smart enough to say that don't sound right. You know, and and they'll go research it and even if they don't research it, they will just not believe you. and dismiss you.

[00:29:28]>> And this and this is not Let me be clear. This is not an appeal uh to people because of fear.

[00:29:35]>> Right. Right.

[00:29:36]>> Let's be clear. Like I >> No doubt.

[00:29:39]>> Look me look wherever wherever the camera is.

[00:29:42]>> I literally do not teach anything I don't believe can be substantiated by scripture.

[00:29:48]>> No doubt.

[00:29:48]>> You know, I don't nothing that I said, nothing I teach do I believe I can't prove it. My people know that >> that if I say it, I believe it can be proven. Y >> now whether you agree with it that's a whole another segment that's a whole another question you know but then even when we get into biblical interpretation which I think we should spend some time in another segment it's another point and maybe even an off segment from this that it's not just biblical interpretation >> you got to look at the history of biblical interpretation >> and so when you get into biblical interpretation >> it's not whether or not one is hermeneutical I mean or or exoggetical expositional or whether one is topical or whatever. It's really >> through what lens do you interpret scripture period. Yes.

[00:30:35]>> You know, because I think all methods employ some level of exogesis. All methods employ some level of hermeneutics, you know, even if it is a self-derived hermeneutic, right?

[00:30:45]>> Uh and so look, let's let's shift it a little bit. This is not a call to minimize the church.

[00:30:51]>> Uh we are not saying that doctrine doesn't matter. We're not saying that churches era is harmless. We are not even saying obedience is optional. What we are not saying is well is one church as good as another church in in every way. We're not saying that, right? We're not saying that all churches are are equal in are fair because I think we all know that there has to obviously be churches that teach error. Sure. You know, that's not what we're saying.

[00:31:16]>> Sure. Sure. No doubt. There absolutely are there are churches that teach error.

[00:31:21]Um but the church matters because Christ died for it.

[00:31:25]>> Yeah.

[00:31:26]>> Um and that's another way of saying that is that those who are believers matter because Christ died for you. Yeah.

[00:31:34]Right. Yeah.

[00:31:34]>> And truth matters because God has spoken truth. Obedience matters because faith that never submits is not biblical faith.

[00:31:46]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:47]Yeah. And so therein uh uh there is still a crucial distinction and the crucial distinction that needs to be made is this is that the church is the community of the saved.

[00:31:59]>> It is not the independent source of salvation.

[00:32:02]>> No doubt. No doubt. And the gospel is a saving message.

[00:32:05]>> Yeah, that's right.

[00:32:06]>> Christ is the saving person. Faith is the trusting response to that message and that person. Obedience is the living submission that flows from that trust.

[00:32:21]And and the church is the body formed by those who belong to him.

[00:32:26]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:27]>> So, so here's a couple of questions. How can we strongly uphold the church without making the church the savior?

[00:32:35]>> Yeah. That's something I want I mean I think it'd be good for you to ask answer those questions. You know, how do we do that? you know, uh, how do we defend truth without turning tradition into the measuring rod of grace?

[00:32:48]>> You know, I think those are things that we have to think about.

[00:32:50]>> Yeah. And how does a gospel- centered view of the church or what does a gospel- centered view of the church sound like?

[00:32:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then uh maybe the real issue is not whether we believe in obedience uh but maybe the real issue is what kind of obedience we're talking about here. M so so there's a kind of obedience that is deeply >> uh biblical >> um humble respons or responsive um trusting submissive to Christ grounded in faith and born from hearing the gospel.

[00:33:31]>> Yeah.

[00:33:32]>> But but there's also a counterfeit version.

[00:33:34]>> Yeah.

[00:33:35]>> There is performative obedience. There is anxious obedience. There is self-protective obedience. There is traditionbound obedience. And there is obedience that's more concerned with being technically right than spiritually surrendered to Christ, >> you know. And and so therefore, when you look at it, how I would kind of distinguish them is one person may say, "I obey because I trust Christ." Mhm.

[00:34:03]>> Whereas another person say, "I do these things so that I can be certain that I've met the system."

[00:34:09]>> Yeah.

[00:34:10]>> And I think >> and if that's the case, >> those are not the same.

[00:34:14]>> Those are not the same. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:15]Yeah. The gospel does not call us to less obedience. It calls us to deeper obedience.

[00:34:21]>> The kind that flows from faith and not fear. Because the the the the when we are focusing on on the latter opposed to the first, what we're literally doing is we're making salvation our act and not the based upon the act of predicated upon what Jesus has done.

[00:34:40]>> Sure. So couple questions to think about as we wrestle with that and as you wrestle with that at home. Are some believers obeying from faith while others obey from inherited anxiety?

[00:34:54]H >> or or here's another one. How does fear distort conver conversion? Yeah.

[00:35:02]>> And assurance.

[00:35:03]>> Yeah.

[00:35:04]>> Yeah, man. That's good. You know, and and I think this conversation and I I hope that we are that we are approaching it in in enough or at least in depth.

[00:35:14]But I I really want you to consider, man, that this conversation is really critical. M >> you know I and the reason why it's so dangerous is because it it teeters on the line of well preacher if you're saying that then are you essentially saying then there could be Christian Christians in other churches >> you know and y'all for those of our audience uh our listening audience who is not who are not church of Christ uh then this becomes a conversation for you to to understand that we come out of a tradition that is as held to ourselves being the only one. Now, crazy thing with that is we're not the only ones that hold to that type of view. We're not the only tradition that's done that.

[00:35:54]>> The uh the other side of it is for our listening audience who do come out of the church, why are we so threatened >> by the fact that the word produces what it says?

[00:36:07]>> Yeah.

[00:36:08]>> Why are we threatened? And I think that's where we get into the conflation of the gospel. That's where we make the gospel everything else. Mh.

[00:36:18]>> Not just your obedience.

[00:36:20]>> Yeah.

[00:36:20]>> We would say uh excuse me, we would say you have to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, be obedient to the gospel of Jesus Christ by baptism.

[00:36:31]And then uh you have to go to the right church. It has to have the right teaching. You have to what? What? And we base that off of Acts chapter 2:42. They continue steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and prayer, fellowship, breaking bread from house to house or whatever, sharing their food with gladness. And he goes into a whole lot of other things that that that we don't do, you know, cuz he that's all obviously if if that's the apostles doctrine and he's doing it contextually, he goes into everything else they were doing, sharing and selling their goods, making sure nobody had need, you know, and all these other things that that they're doing. And and what I'm what I'm essentially saying and for those of us regardless of your your your hermeneutical lens is just really think about what the biblical text is saying, really think about what the biblical text means. Yeah.

[00:37:24]>> Matter of fact, >> before you can think about what it means, you have to think about what it meant for those when it was written.

[00:37:30]>> That's right.

[00:37:30]>> The the classic statement is the things that were written a four time were written for our learning. Mhm.

[00:37:36]>> Uh uh right. Or the classic statement uh and I I don't know if that's it. Uh >> the scripture can never mean what it never meant.

[00:37:43]>> Right. Exactly. Right. And then uh another side of it is is that uh when we when we look at and that just I just completely had a brain fart there. But uh I know man it's crazy. But when when I also think about it, I think about some of the things that we talk about even hermeneutically and I think I said this in another episode where I was talking about the law first mentioned.

[00:38:05]>> Yeah.

[00:38:06]And I was I was uh in my doctoral program at Duke with a uh Old Testament scholar uh Dr. Ellen Davis. And I had mentioned the law of first mention. And this is I'm mentioning this as you know a a principle of exogesis, a principle of hermeneutics. And she says, "I I don't think I've ever heard that before." And that blew my mind because some of the things that we do, you know, even to substantiate or to strengthen our postures and positions are still moves that have been humanly constructed that make good logical sense.

[00:38:53]>> But you have to still ask yourself the question, is that what the Bible is doing?

[00:38:58]>> Yes. Is it what it's doing? And so for fear of this conversation, you know, I hold to the view and this is where I guess it gets a little bit scary and uh and I do realize that preachers can be cancelled and it's okay, right? It's okay if you cancel uh me or whatever and say, "Well, you can't come to church because we can't have someone holding that view." First and foremost, I know how to go and preach what you believe.

[00:39:25]>> That's right. That's right.

[00:39:26]>> Uh which man, this is so crazy. like uh the com I think about conversations that we had like with the Dr. Evans of the world, right?

[00:39:35]>> And the things that they would say to us, Dr. Maxwell, the things that they would say to us in private, >> which we know we could not go out and just say it because they're giving it to us as like a nugget or jewel to hold on to. And now this etiquette, you didn't >> hold to the preacher etiquette. That means don't talk about stuff that you can't necessarily teach because it doesn't align with everyone in the tradition. Anyway, man, I I just think uh we really have to think deeply about how we approach this conversation.

[00:40:08]>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think about our our southwestern days and uh you know, people would come and say, you know, y'all y'all don't y'all don't preach what them old guys preach.

[00:40:19]And >> I'd be sitting there thinking, who do you think taught me?

[00:40:22]>> Yeah. Right. Who do you think taught me how to study and read? And you know, where do you think I got this information from?

[00:40:30]>> Um, I remember days of spending hours in the library.

[00:40:35]>> Yeah.

[00:40:35]>> At Southwestern reading and going through books and d and and reading Dr. Maxwell's books on church history and things of that nature. He didn't hide the truth. He didn't hide that information, >> you know. He put it in a book. He put it in the book >> and and um and it caused me to think critically >> which was an introduction to >> the real issue and I think that's really the at the core of problem you know that's why we spend so little time dealing with church history it's not a it's not even a a part of the curriculum that we teach uh today when we're when we're discipling somebody we don't spend any time I don't know if you you get it as a new convert I don't know if you get it even as a a longtime member do we spend time really walking church history, moving from first, second, third, fourth century. All we do is even with Dr. Maxwell's uh uh church history outline, I can't forget it. You know, it it begins with this uh what does it do?

[00:41:33]It it starts with this um >> uh in the fullness of time. That's right. In the fullness of time.

[00:41:40]>> Yes, sir. Uh and then it moves to the dark ages and then it moves to uh the uh renaissance and uh and then you go to the restoration and then you go to I mean reformation and then you go to restoration and in each of those segments it's it's etched in my mind >> you know but but even still there is so much that we don't spend time with. We chalk so much off to the dark ages.

[00:42:05]>> That's right. We we we we say and write so much stuff off to the dark edges and say, "Well, we have no Bible for that.

[00:42:12]We have no historical record for that."

[00:42:15]And and really we do.

[00:42:17]>> We just don't uh accept it. We just don't uh hold it as validated truth.

[00:42:24]Yeah.

[00:42:24]>> And and so therefore, anything that happens after Revelations or after we see and that's how we see the Bible, Revelation's last book written. Anything that happens after that, we say, "Okay, well, everything else is dark ages."

[00:42:38]Yeah. It's during this time that the church experiences this great falling away. Yeah. This apostasy that takes place of sorts.

[00:42:45]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Matter of fact, I I I don't I I don't want to be remiss because there are other scholars out there even within our fellowship that have written about um church history. Dr. Edward Robert, you know, he has great material out there on church history and you mentioned him earlier, uh, Leonard Allen, you know, and other other guys. And so the information is out there, but the truth is that most people in the pews are not searching out that information. Um, it is the responsibility of the one who preaches.

[00:43:23]>> Yeah.

[00:43:24]uh in many cases to introduce their people to the truth of of the information. And this is why I think you know kind of moving back to what we are talking about this is why it is important to have people who are not afraid yeah >> to present and teach truth in a way where we're putting it out there where people can get an understanding of it. I want to move to this issue though that um of really about why this conversation matters and and you asked a question earlier where you were you know talking about um the heart of the conversation is are there Christians in other churches >> and I just want to briefly address that because I actually see and this is debatable we can you know but I actually see that There is only one church. I believe that. And that's the church that Jesus established.

[00:44:23]>> Yeah.

[00:44:23]>> So just because there's a building with a name Yeah.

[00:44:27]>> and people in it and because just because you got a church charter or or you are registered as a church don't mean you're really a church.

[00:44:37]>> The only church that exists is the church that Christ established. Yeah.

[00:44:44]And uh it is only consisting of people who have believed the gospel and answered the gospel's call in obedient faith. Right. And so if you belong to Jesus, you're in the church. Right.

[00:44:59]>> Yeah. And you said so much there, man.

[00:45:01]And and I I wanted to I wanted to hold one thought and then I got another thought. Uh but this is what makes this conversation dangerous because as as two >> uh Church of Christ preachers I guess you still Church of Christ but a lot of folk a lot of folk don't wrote you all but >> but uh but for me >> what I am saying is it's not the church that saves.

[00:45:26]>> That's right.

[00:45:26]>> It's the doctrine. It's the gospel that saves.

[00:45:29]>> That's right. And do those other things matter how one carries out their, you know, how one lives out their disciplehip? It does.

[00:45:39]>> But going back to it, you talk about Christians in other churches, you know, and and you may even argue whether we're giving a definitive answer, but I want you to answer it. I think that's where we are. We're we're we're tossing it out there for you to do your own self introspection, but I think this is the way you you have to look at it. And I think about that in terms of our models of disciplehip. Today there are a number of churches that don't necessarily subscribe to denominational affiliation.

[00:46:08]>> And the category for that is non-denom.

[00:46:11]Yeah.

[00:46:11]>> There's a lot of churches that proclaim theirelves to be non-denominational.

[00:46:15]>> Y >> and often times what I have found to be true for non-denominational churches is that they are very gospel centered. Mhm.

[00:46:24]>> Uh they're very gospelcentric in the sense that the gospel is at the core of salvation.

[00:46:31]>> Mhm.

[00:46:31]>> The need to disciple one. Mark Matthew 28 Jesus says he go into the world uh uh make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit teaching them to observe whatsoever I've commanded you. Mh.

[00:46:49]>> And when I think about it, I was thinking the other day about what is the difference between going to a church, between presenting yourself to say that I want to be saved, that I'm coming for to be saved, and then that church immediately puts you in a disciplehip class, >> a disciplehip process, >> of which once you complete it, you then become a candidate for baptism.

[00:47:16]>> Right?

[00:47:17]What's the difference between that and what we tend to do within the COC is we will invite a person to study if they're interested in salvation >> and then we will study with them as long as they need to study >> before they come to a space and place of saying I definitively want to obey the gospel.

[00:47:38]>> Yeah, >> it's the same thing.

[00:47:41]>> Yeah, >> it's the same thing. The only difference is is one church uh defines it more distinctly whereas another church does it more informally. But it's the same process and and and what matters at the end of the day is what's been taught.

[00:47:55]>> That's right.

[00:47:56]>> And what has been taught is not my church tradition. What's been taught is not you go, you know, we used to teach these identified markers. What does the church look like? You go to church and it doesn't have instrumental music. You go to church and it has communion on Sundays. You go to church and they don't have women up. You go to church and you know these are the things that we used to say which means we're putting those things before the gospel.

[00:48:19]>> No doubt >> we put those things before the gospel and we still teach gospel but we're no longer gospel centric.

[00:48:27]>> That's right.

[00:48:27]>> We're traditional centered.

[00:48:29]>> That's right.

[00:48:30]>> It is the tradition that saves us and it's not the word of God.

[00:48:34]>> That's right.

[00:48:35]>> It's not the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I dare anybody to debate uh debate me as if that's wrong. It's not wrong. You can't you can't refute that.

[00:48:45]>> No, man. I actually have a church member at our church um and uh she shared with me this story about how she had attended this uh congregation that was not Church of Christ. It was something else. They had studied with her. They taught her the gospel. Um but for whatever reason they refused to baptize her and she said that she had left them but she was convicted that she needed to be baptized and she had went to multiple congregations and uh they wanted to take her through a process or whatever like you're talking about study disciplehip all that >> and she was convicted that she needed to be baptized and she did not get baptized until she walked into the Harlem Church of Christ in New York. Um, and Dr. Shabbaz baptized her, you know, or whoever was preaching that day, they baptized her that day. And um, so her point was, she jokes and says the Church of Christ was the only per only group that would baptize me. Right. And so my point to that is her initial teaching didn't come from us. Yeah. it came from somebody else that >> she was convicted of a need to do this >> and you know for whatever reason there were obstacles where they didn't or wouldn't or whatever >> but she fulfilled that conviction >> um in church of Christ water. Yeah.

[00:50:17]>> Right. And so I guess does it mean that because it was church of Christ water that somehow now she is saved because it was water her teaching came from somewhere else.

[00:50:28]>> Yeah. And and and and that's why I'm saying that all that matters is is it is the teaching biblically sound?

[00:50:34]>> Yeah.

[00:50:35]>> And when we say biblically sound, we're not talking about biblically sound of that which appeals to your preference.

[00:50:40]>> That's right.

[00:50:40]>> Or that which appeals to your own posture, but is it biblically sound? Can it be tracked and traced in scripture?

[00:50:46]Yeah. Uh can it be is is scripture is it does it have a scriptural root, you know, and and mechanism for which we are are are pursu in pursuit of obedience to it. You know, when I think about this is even in my my sitting down with various candidates who are interested in salvation, you know, my my teacher taught me uh Thomas uh Thomas uh was was was probably the most profound and in informative or formational teacher I had as it related to uh evangelism. And he taught me in our 101 that you know there's a basic method because we know what the Bible says as it relates to how the earlier church >> were coming to the church uh into the church then you know so we have a method of asking people you know how were you you know like you're interested in membership you're coming to the church okay great let's talk because I have a responsibility to make sure to over as we oversee for your soul to make sure that where we we are following scripture that we are believing what the Bible teaches.

[00:51:50]>> And so I ask questions. I say, "Hey man, how were you saved?" And then >> I've always been surprised or not really surprised, but it's when I sit down with somebody and they say, "Hey man, you know, I uh grew up in this church uh years ago and I heard the gospel of Jesus Christ that know Jesus died for our sins according to scriptures and I was baptized." Mhm.

[00:52:14]>> And my question is, if a person says that, >> then what do you do with them?

[00:52:22]>> If they say that, if they tell you that's what they did according to our views and our religious tradition, >> what do you do now?

[00:52:32]>> Welcome, brother.

[00:52:33]>> Yeah. Right. Right. Or do you say, well, who told you that?

[00:52:36]>> Right.

[00:52:37]>> Or do you say, what church did you get that from? you know and if and if they then identify oh that it wasn't a church of Christ you know not not to say not even to say Christian church which is of course a big debate within our tradition today uh then you know you well you did it but they didn't teach you something right >> and then the question I have to ask is what didn't they teach right >> that's right >> they taught you the essential thing the thing that is the non-negotiable they taught you that >> and now we get into that's when we conflate the gospel now We say, "But the church has to be this and it has to be that and it has to teach this and it has to operate that way." And that's why I'm just saying, is that Christ's law or is that our law?

[00:53:18]>> You know, based upon how we read scripture, based upon the the biblical lens through which we interpret scripture, is that the way Christ intends it or is that the way we feel comfortable with it?

[00:53:29]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Listen, >> I I need y'all to have our back. Not Not that you know we care much about it, but >> I do. But but Type it in the comment section. Say, "I got your back. I got your back." Because somebody gonna come shooting. Yeah.

[00:53:45]>> Um and >> and we ready for it, too. I mean, we ready. You I mean, it's been a lot of chatter >> that's happening, but it ain't really hit us yet.

[00:53:53]>> No. Well, we from the nook if you generation. Come on. Let's go, man.

[00:53:57]Let's go. Let's go if you but boy. All right. On the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, listen. We hope this conversation has been appetizing for you. Uh we hope that it's helpful to at least get you to think uh more introspectively, theologically, biblically, you know, and to think about what what is sound doctrine, right? Like like I was reading last night Timothy where Titus uh 2 1-8 where he was saying, you know, to him, teach those things that are proper for sound doctrine. And then he goes on to say, teach the older men and teach the older women. Teach the younger men and the younger women. That's sound doctrine. No doubt.

[00:54:35]>> You know that's sound doctrine. And so these are things that I think we have to really think about when we say sound doctrine. Are we saying doctrine that aligns with our tradition or are we saying doctrines that align with Bible?

[00:54:47]>> Yeah.

[00:54:48]>> You know, cuz if you're teaching doesn't come from Bible, then it ain't biblical and it ain't crystal centric. That's right. But if your what you're teaching is biblical and it comes from Bible, then that's sound doctrine. That's right. You know, and the problem is is when we try to categorize it or we try to monopolize truth, >> we think that we have the monopoly on truth and that becomes a problem and and for for even greater and further theological discussion and conversation.

[00:55:16]>> Yeah. Sound doctrine is healthy teaching. Any teaching that makes you and I whole and healthy Yeah.

[00:55:22]>> is sound doctrine.

[00:55:24]>> This is the 10th and final episode of the season. season, man. Listen, y'all.

[00:55:32]>> Man, >> we we are appreciative, man. We got almost 300 subscribers in our first season. That is a little over maybe eight weeks or nine or 10 weeks. We've gotten over 300 of y'all who have subscribed to our page, who have liked it, who have followed it, you've engaged. Listen, listen. Y'all been watching the video and some of y'all watching and you ain't engaging. Some of you watching and you're not pressing likes. Some of you are engaging and you're not subscribing. Help us out.

[00:55:58]Help her. Help help a brother out. Help help some brothers out. And we ask that you right, we ask that you subscribe. We ask that you continue to follow us. We ask that you continue to share. If you find this uh conversation to be theologically uh stimulating and and sound and refreshing, we want you to continue to support us. Be prepared for season two. I promise you, you don't want to miss us with where God has taken us.

[00:56:26]>> And let me say this. Thank you. of you sub subscribed on YouTube or or or followed us on Instagram, but we're also on Spotify. We're also on >> Apple Music um all of our platforms. Go like us, go subscribe, go follow us, go do whatever.

[00:56:47]Uh and engage us on those platforms, too. And send this to five or 10 people uh and uh say, "Watch this, listen to this, and subscribe." I'm excited for season two. We're working on what we're going to be talking about for season two. We got some dope stuff, >> man. Our dude, uh, Jamal, good people, BD, man. He's been blessing us, y'all.

[00:57:10]He's put this together for us. He know that it was a vision I had and we had and he said, "Listen, man. I want to make it come alive." And so everything you see, even down to the Instagram page, the YouTube page, the Spotify, Apple Music, Maul has helped us big, man. And we want to recommend them. If you're trying to do something like this right here in the RDU area, hey man, reach out to us. We'll certainly make sure you get his information. Uh, and matter of fact, we'll drop it. He'll drop it in the in the link here so you in the in the comment section so you can follow him. Listen, this is a ministry that we want to continue to make sure grows. So, we want your continued support. Thank you for following us all season long and we can't wait to season two. This is unfiltered and unapologetic. Listen, this is your boy Pastor O, the real theologian for the public square and I'm here with my man >> DB Watkins. We'll see you.

[00:58:03]>> Peace. Unfiltered and unapologetic.

[00:58:06]Unfiltered and unapologetic.

[00:58:09]Unfiltered and unapologetic.

[00:58:11]Unfiltered and unapologetic. unfilled.