PHIL HAY'S LEEDS UNITED VERDICT: TWO YEARS ON | The Square Ball

Añadido: 2026-05-10

[00:00:01]The Square Ball podcast.

[00:00:06]Hello there. Welcome to the show. This is the West Stand, our guest show on the Square Bowl that you'll find normally on a Monday and a Friday on YouTube if you want to watch and if you want to listen, it's in your podcast app as well. Guests from the world of lead United who you might find hanging about in the West End. I'm Dan Mo and with me is Michael Normanson.

[00:00:21]>> Hello Daniel.

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[00:01:29]Our guest, just like old times, welcome back to the studio, Phil Haye.

[00:01:34]>> Thank you. I I should just say I don't hang around the west stand these days.

[00:01:39]If I did, I'd probably get moved on or >> arrested. But you were >> for for Burnley. You were you were drafted back in.

[00:01:45]>> Yeah. Um and it was great fun, you know.

[00:01:48]It was I have to say this like people at Leeds are really really good to me and they were very good to me on Friday night and it was a bit like old times generally and I always find the vibes in Ellen Road great atmosphere was as I remembered Twitter became a bit old school as the as the evening went on which was was a good old good old laugh Twitter's really weird these days I haven't used it for months like used it properly I haven't really used it properly since I um stepped away from all the the lead United stuff and it has gone like completely weird. I know there's lots of stuff on there that people hate and lots of like offensive or um derogatory stuff, but it is also just like peculiar. There was a point in the second half where I flicked on to the main feed to, you know, just have a look at what else was was being said and what was going on. And the thing at the top of it said, "Would you like a larger penis?" And I was like, "Well, ideally, yes, but not not right now." You know, but I was like, "What? What is this?

[00:02:44]Where's the where's all the LUFC content?" It just was was nothing. But the notification section started to become much more like, you know, 2018, 2019, that sort of time. It was it was really funny. It was full of people being decks. Like I um which was great.

[00:03:01]I I put on the I tweeted the um the photoshop thing that somebody had sent me which said Le United Burnley won riot police called as angry fans uh barricades glory hunting journalist Phil into Ellen Road and my eldest who she's only 14 but she got in touch with me sent me a WhatsApp she said oh my god like are you okay I said just a wind up and the the thing that >> the thing you need to know about the Noble Lead United vase is, you know, they're they're a bit like this and um and and they're, you know, they sort of play up all the time. Um I will say this though, like it moving away from that job has let me do other things with my life, you know, so I've been able to bit more family time, time with friends.

[00:03:47]>> Oh, look at me. I'm all healthy and got a really good work life balance. Phil, this is the thing you see and kind of pay some attention to people I've neglected over the years. Get to follow another team who are um actually my own.

[00:03:59]And what Friday did remind me of is that every single game at Leads is so intense. Like every single week, every single day with the club is is really intense. And I think when you're doing football writing, there are only so many times you can go to to the well. Um and that's kind of where I was in 2024. I was I didn't feel like I had much more to draw on. And I was kind of worried that I would end up going through the motions or worse than that, we'd end up sort of actively disliking the job, which wouldn't be good for me, wouldn't be good for people who are who are reading. Um, >> at that point, we were doing two shows a week, weren't we in here? I wonder if that's what did we do. You >> think that's that's what was tipping tipping over the hang with us twice a week?

[00:04:40]>> Probably.

[00:04:41]But >> come on. Hey, more more. So, it's a it's a really long-winded way of saying I don't miss it, but I loved being back on Friday because it was ace.

[00:04:50]>> But you miss that kind of the atmosphere, that kind of thing.

[00:04:52]>> In the in the thick of it. Absolutely.

[00:04:54]>> The buzz of it is great, isn't it? Yeah.

[00:04:56]At it best. Can I just ask by the way, you mentioned you following your own team. You were spotted on the telly.

[00:05:00]>> Indeed.

[00:05:00]>> Um in the late game celebration, I think it was at hearts.

[00:05:05]>> I think in your trademark um cap looking a thousand yard star stare on your face so is the croaky voice related to that by the way. Yeah. Yes.

[00:05:14]>> Calling Rangers fans bastards.

[00:05:15]>> Uh, yes. And other people as well.

[00:05:18]>> I bet when you thought you're going to get to spend more time watching Hearts, you didn't imagine a league title would be within grass would be part of the deal here.

[00:05:26]>> So, I was on the waiting list for I forget how long it is now, but it feels like I was on it for about five or six years um at hearts. And the reason I got on it was that because there was a waiting list, you started to the penny started to drop that that if you got, you know, find yourself in circumstances where you could actually go and see them, which I really haven't been able to do in the 20 years that that I covered leads, um, you might not be able to get one because there are too many other people who are after them. So I got on the waiting list. It felt like about four or five years. Um, at one point I messaged them and said, you know, where am I on the list? Thinking I must be pretty close to the top. when I was about 2,100 or something like that, which was going to be something like 5 to 10 years in order to to get to the top. So, I was thinking, well, that's, you know, I'm going to going to have to play the long game here. And then last summer, out of the blue, I got an email saying, "Hey, you've made it to the top.

[00:06:16]If you want a season ticket, fill your boots." So, like, I'm not a religious man, but I would just like to thank um the big man up high for his sense of timing because it's been absolutely amazing. Absolutely unbelievable. Um, and I mean Monday was was madness like it was it was going off in our end because there were a few Rangers fans there. It got really hostile. It got really nasty which I think was black.

[00:06:40]>> No, black belt filh was well behaved.

[00:06:42]>> Was it taekwond do you think kickboxing?

[00:06:45]Yeah. No, no. I I just didn't watch you know um like the coward that I am. Um but it was it was just what we needed in the second half and it made a big difference to the atmosphere and everything else. Just for the benefit of anybody who's not um fully aware of what's happened in recent weeks. Hart's currently top of the the Scottish Premiership. Three points clear, three games to go. That's right.

[00:07:03]>> You've just beaten Hibs on their own patch, which was the same day as the Cup semi-final.

[00:07:08]>> That's right.

[00:07:08]>> Um which uh mixed fortunes on that day, should we say, in this room.

[00:07:13]>> Um and then you've beaten Rangers 2-1 at home in the most recent game. Um up next, Motherwell. H >> up next is Motherwell away, followed by Faluk at home.

[00:07:21]>> Motherwell.

[00:07:22]>> Yes. Yes. Five.

[00:07:23]>> Motherwell away. solid. Yeah, >> you just play you played Motherwell at home actually a few games ago, didn't you? But given the way that the split happens in the division this year, you play um the teams in the top half a lot.

[00:07:32]Uh so yeah, it's Motherwell away uh Falerk at home and then >> final game of the season.

[00:07:38]>> Celtic away.

[00:07:38]>> Celtic away.

[00:07:39]>> Yeah, that's the big fly in the ointment. And that's why you're not going to get me to say it.

[00:07:43]>> All right. I will say that leads are safe, but I won't say that hearts are winning the table.

[00:07:47]>> This is what I find really interesting like and and we've chatted periodically about this about how you uh you consume hearts versus how you consume leads. And it's the difference, isn't it? Because you retreat into that kind of irrational headsp space that us fans have about leads, whereas you can be quite objective about leads, but I don't think about Do you know what I finally understand? Do you remember the night of the Barnsley game when when it looked like leads were basically up? There didn't seem to be any way. They still needed things to happen and they still needed a point here there or West Brom to lose it at Huddersfield which they did. Um but there seemed at that point no way in which it wasn't going to happen. It was kind of um fat play and inevitable. But we sort of tried to tease out a be Elsa some quotes about you know it would be great if we win the title. I just wouldn't do it you know.

[00:08:30]It's like no I just don't think that we're there. And I I think I finally understand why that was and and also that that he wasn't he wasn't messing about like he probably actually felt that that if he sat there and said, "Yeah, well, you know, we're pretty much there." Um and in the way that Farer kind of did on Friday after the the Burnley game, he didn't say we're safe.

[00:08:52]Um but he did sort of say 43 points, we just need to finish this off now, which I think is totally right. I think I think 43 points see them right. Um no problem at all this season. But yeah, I I I totally get it because that's exactly where I am as well. I still think we'll get stiffed at the end.

[00:09:07]>> You say you say that, but the next fixture this weekend, Celtic Rangers.

[00:09:11]So, Rangers have got the chance to do the funniest thing to Celtic. Now, they're probably going to be a little bit too far off it, aren't they? Because of the the nature of the gap. So, as long as you win, as long as you win, then you're fine.

[00:09:20]>> I think they're out. Um, but the the one of the bonuses for us is that both of those clubs would probably prefer that we won it as opposed to either of them.

[00:09:30]my enemies enmy.

[00:09:31]>> They would rather win it themselves, but if it isn't going to be either of them and considering how tight the I think they're both of them 55 or something like that over over the years and considering how tight it is between them for titles one um without getting into the whole thing about whether this rangers incarnation is still the same as the old one. Um they would rather that neither of the you should have saved that joke for grace comes on. Um they yeah so you know Rangers are not going to you would think make it particularly easy on Sunday in saying that if they play like they did in the second half against us then Celtic go win that game.

[00:10:05]>> Um Graeme actually said I messaged him and said how are you after yesterday's game has Phil been in touch about it? He says no he hasn't which is good because my head fell right off.

[00:10:13]>> I've made it I've made a del I made a deliberate point of not coding him about it and the reason is because >> it's not it's not over yet. Oh, like I I suspect like if it all falls apart. Um I saw somebody hips persuasion saying it's going to be a jam bottle job if it happens, which is quite quite funny for them. So let's, you know, let's see.

[00:10:32]>> Um and yeah, so Celtic Rangers this weekend and then Motherwell again do the joke. Motherwell Celtic um after that.

[00:10:38]So Motherwell are going to have a big saying where this goes and then yeah, Celtic hearts on the final day of the season. I might even watch.

[00:10:44]>> Yeah, why not? Why not?

[00:10:46]>> I might even I think it's live on Sky Mother World game 8:00 Saturday night.

[00:10:50]>> I hear it's a very high standard of football up there.

[00:10:53]>> Um well, speaking of the standard of football, what did you make to to leads versus Burnley then? Where where do you see leads as you revisit as you know a couple of years having uh after having kind of given up the patch full time?

[00:11:03]>> I think they're a really good team or at least a good team. Um I I wrote about the game obviously for Saturday morning for the Athletic and I was saying that they're they're effective and they're just kind of pleasingly efficient within the limitations of the squad, the strength of the resources and also within the limitations of like Farcus philosophy and and tactics. He's not reinventing the wheel, is he, with with what he's doing, but they are watchable and they deserve to stay up and and they will stay up. Um >> is that definite?

[00:11:34]>> Yeah. know they do you honestly think on 43 points to get anyone down there?

[00:11:37]>> No, I don't. I don't feel I don't.

[00:11:39]>> No, but I know but I know where you come >> in the same way that you won't commit to uh Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But you know the the aggression at the start of the game was definitely there but it was also controlled and I just thought it set the tone. Got an early goal but set the tone really nicely. Um if you were going to be critical at all you would say it got a bit um ragged and wobbly in the second half after the hour. Um I didn't think the game management and the substitutions were like perfect um at that point. Is um is Nemeta on the left a thing? Um >> it kind of has been.

[00:12:13]>> It's the just playing off Calbertt Lewin thing. I think >> it's because Okafer typically fades massively after about an hour and then he tended to be the one with favor. So he he does sort of play Oafar's role but he does it a bit differently. Yeah, I he I mean he's got the physique and the style of a center forward, Nichcha, and it didn't really seem to to add much to the team him him being in that position.

[00:12:34]Um, but it was a really strong win and I I just think Valka and his players have have done a cracking job this season.

[00:12:41]Done exactly what needed to to be done.

[00:12:43]I think recruitment wise, they've pretty much nailed it, haven't they, with making sure that they were strong enough coming up not to not to go down again.

[00:12:51]The one thing I thought coming away, I was I was mulling this over on on Friday night as I was writing, is that I feel like VA has probably squeezed just about everything out of this group of players.

[00:13:02]Um, I think this collective unchanged probably can't get an awful lot better than this, but I think it could definitely get worse. So they are going to have to and I'm sure they will but are going to have to heed the lesson of 2021 when the club and a lot of people and and me included I think kind of overestimated the ability of that squad to sustain the level that they'd been >> in well caner touched on it when he came in in as our guest didn't he and he was like you know we you the problem the problem that newly promoted clubs face is that you just cannot within the was within the PSR rules >> um churn your squad fast enough like the limits are set up in such a way is that you just cannot spend the money now we're moving into a era now with squad control ratios which are a little bit probably loose and will favor leads because we've got high commercial revenues all that kind of stuff. Um I sus I suspect that um churning the squad now is probably well within their their thought process cuz they know you need to don't you need to start adding that little sprinkling of magic.

[00:13:56]>> Yeah, definitely. But I think if you look back to that summer they had the um the dance with Connor Gallagher, didn't they? That didn't work out. Um and had they signed him I think he would have made a difference. So, I think they would have been a better squad because of it and potentially better team. Um, people like Philippo who came in, I know Philpu became a big cult hero in the Championship, but he wasn't really cutting it at all in in the Premier League and they just missed on on various fronts and and I think yeah, financially weren't in a position to there's that famous quote, isn't there, from Radani of Belsa saying to him, you know, you either change me or you change the squad. Um, and no, didn't didn't do either. I mean, they were never going to change Bea. they didn't really have the money to totally overhaul the squad. So, they were stuck in a like stuck in a bit of a corner with that. I don't see them failing to acknowledge that this time and I don't think they'll they'll be sort of shy in the transfer market. It's not to say it will work because obviously transfers a bit of an unknown unknown quantity when you make them and they don't always always pay off, but they won't sit on their hands because I think they'll realize themselves looking at the squad that there are areas where it needs to needs to change. like the goalkeeper feels like a little bit of a movable feast. Um, and you probably I mean is what's the feeling with Perry?

[00:15:08]Is it a kind of busted flush situation or does he just need a a kind of summer to reset?

[00:15:14]>> I wonder if there's if there's money for him and we can kind of get our money back or near enough in summer. I think they'll move him on. But equally, I think >> given he's the the only in contract goalkeeper for next season at this stage, they might see what happens next year.

[00:15:29]>> Yeah. Yeah, cuz I think his cup performances have been actually pretty good as well, but he's not he's not let us down in a in a few games, has he in the cup?

[00:15:35]>> Maybe maybe it's a confidence thing.

[00:15:37]That's the thing. Like Farer touched on it, didn't he? He sort of said um he's had a bad moment cuz he's cuz like Lucas is he's quite intelligent and quite perceptive >> and um I think maybe that there was just a a sort of a pressure thing. It's a big move for a keeper into into the highest profile league in the world and he maybe needs a bit of time to adjust. That said, he's not brilliant with his feet and his distribution. I think possibly isn't quite >> I don't think I don't think either of them are.

[00:16:04]>> I don't think it's I don't think it's bad. I just don't think it necessarily fits this team that that well, but um but equally he's probably not as bad as as people have have said at times.

[00:16:13]>> No, possibly not. And Darlow makes some cracking saves actually. Like some of the his highlights real from this season is is really impressive. But whether that's a long-term answer, I'm I'm not so sure. Um they were mega clinical on Friday. Like they really really did take the chances. But again, I think if I was following this club regularly and you were offered another center forward up front, you know, a bit of additional um goal scoring prowess, then I would definitely take that as well.

[00:16:37]>> I suspect there'll be all the talk is about becoming a trading club. I think there'll be more churn than we expect this summer. Maybe maybe sort of four big headline signings, but also some other ones as well.

[00:16:46]>> I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's the way you have to operate. you know, speaking to uh people at the club at the end of the window last summer and they were saying like the operation last summer was all about bringing the floor up, not necessarily extending the ceiling that much higher, but just making sure there was a minimum standard in there, which I think we we've hit pretty well. I think I would say based on the evidence, >> I think the floor of the squad as well, when you look at the team that went down, >> we had some pretty pretty poor players in that team on reflection anyway. Some of them who maybe you hoped would step up, but you know, you got the likes of like Greenwood and Bait and H. It was extraordinarily young, wasn't it? It really was.

[00:17:19]>> There was promise in those players, but actually you can see how it's played out for most of them a few years down the line and they a lot of them are well some of them are not even championship players and as it's turned out they're league one players.

[00:17:29]>> Maybe a little bit of a hangover from the BL era when you put faith in all those young players and you could turn water into wine. Yeah. That actually you end up with this young squad of of filler players if you like, not to be disrespectful to them. um who just actually when it comes down to it in in the hands of other coaches uh are maybe not quite up to snuff.

[00:17:46]>> My guess would be as well that it's quite difficult to enhance yourself in a season where it's all going horribly wrong. You know, it's not not great stuff. I can think of bait getting substituted at West Ham, I think it was, and him just never really maybe he just wasn't good enough and was never going to cut it here, but um never really managing to find his flow or to get into a run of games that that made a difference to to him. So it is a different squad now and a lot of like a lot of players who I would say are hitting a good steady six seven eight every week or most weeks which is why they're in the position that they're in.

[00:18:18]Um but they haven't looked to me at all like a bottom three side for much of this season. I know there was the there was the period in November wasn't there where everybody was was after far and I know why they were and I don't think that could have gone on indefinitely.

[00:18:33]you know, I think at the that point in the City game, something needed to change either at halftime at that point or in the the week that that followed and it did and he he switched to that different system and and it's worked.

[00:18:44]Um, but really they've they've had this in hand. It's it's been it's been impressive. Um, I don't it's not been as comfortably impressive as the 2021 season when they I think they got to 50 51 points, but it's been in a lot of ways as good an achievement. I think >> I think we should we should have had that a number of points truthfully.

[00:19:03]>> Well, I think that's a I think that's fair to fair to say. I I would again without having been right on the scene, it feels to me that there are more games in which leads have kind of been robbed of points that they should have had than than games where they've robbed them themselves. They've been a bit of both from time to time, but I think the balance is in that direction. So, it's a like the last two seasons have shown incredibly difficult to stay up when you get promoted. So, they've they've smashed it really. I'm going to be a massive hypocrite now. Um and uh because we always take the piss out of Jesse Marsh for talking about underlying numbers, but according to the underlying numbers, um we should be ninth. Now, the middle order of the Premier League is very very very compact.

[00:19:39]>> When you see underlying numbers, what's that based on?

[00:19:42]>> So, they they reckon um analysis shows that it's basically expected goals for and against is the most accurate measure of the quality of a team. Apparently, it's the one that translates, you know, it's the one that translates. That's what they say. Yeah.

[00:19:52]>> Yeah. Most most closely to um like where you should be. And we are currently 14th but should be ninth based on um expected um points.

[00:20:01]>> Yeah.

[00:20:01]>> Is about the size of it. Again the caveat there is there is a number of kind of teams on the in the um low to mid-50s there. Brenford Bournemouth Newcastle us 67 89 um as it is there. Uh Brighton just below us as well. So we should be about middle order. So we should be about where we finished under be. So on a similar points total right now according to the performance.

[00:20:20]>> But that's what that's what you got to do isn't it? you you get promoted, you stay up and then you your next I know people start to think okay so you want to push on to big things but the the next stage of it is to get yourself into that wedge of clubs in the middle who are never really in trouble but are only kind of dipping their toes into the possibility of European qualification and you know I know Palace won the FA Cup last year but aren't really threatening for for trophies they tend to go to your clubs in the top six or seven um but I it doesn't feel to me like it's going to be impossible for leads to bridge that gap, you know, to get into that pack with um with Brighton and Brenford and and others, but they will again have to get the recruitment right this summer. Um and I guess there will come a window if they if they do stay up season upon season where they will want to edge, I would think, a little bit more towards flair players as opposed to players who are it's not that they don't have ability. Um, I mean, Stack I'm I've I've liked a lot this season and I think there is a really good mixture there of physicality but also the the ability to play and and get on on the ball. Um, but you do need finesse to to claim the league eventually and I I think that'll be on the minds >> and in theory the anyway the second season it becomes much easier to recruit, doesn't it? because you're not you're not having such difficult discussions with people where their agents are going, well, you'll be favorites to go down again. Cuz ne at the start of next season, we there's not a chance we'll be in the favorites cuz it'll be the the three that come up will be the the three favorites to go down.

[00:21:46]We'll probably be in the mix with >> I guess the likes of maybe Sunderland, Palace will be in that next group up though, won't we? Where you start the season at maybe seven, eight to one chance of Glegation rather than kind of evens, which I think is about where we started this season.

[00:22:00]It's a it's a really good point and I think the the the bonus you have as a team who've already stayed up is that before you even get going Ipsswitch Coventry next season and whoever else it might be could be Hull could be Milwwell quite easily one of those is going to go through to the the playoff final in the championship need to get themselves into a position where they can at the very least compete which Ipsswitch weren't really able to do last time round um a lot of promoted clubs haven't been able to do so the ground to make up before they even start whereas leads are are going from quite a stand in stock.

[00:22:31]>> What sort of a sales pitch are you giving to um to players? Because I think they'll do what you said there, Phil. I think they'll go for a few sort of difference makers this summer. Add that little bit of extra quality on top of the kind of the more workmanlike approach that's been put in place this season. But so what's what's the sales pitch to um to players that you're trying to recruit? Now, >> I think the sales pitch is that you there are lots of ways to go at it. You tend to earn better in the Premier League than you do in any other league elsewhere, even if you're mid table. I mean, do you remember when Leeds were after um Charles de Kettler um back in the day and he wanted to go to Milan and he ended up going to Milan, but Milan found that deal really hard to do because Leeds were basically in a position to stump up the money more easily than they were and and they were a bit mystified and they are a bit mystified in Italy how it is that a club like Milan couldn't really of you know were able to compete in the end but weren't able to just say no I'm sorry we're Milan we're having him and that's the end of it you know in the way that like Barcelona would rafinia or Manchester City would with Holland or something like that. It's just like we we've got all the clout so he's our player. It was a struggle for Milan to to get that done. So the wages at less will be good I would imagine. Uh potentially be better next season cuz another flood of TV money coming in. So you you'll be offering good contracts.

[00:23:44]You've got the stadium coming. Um it's going to take time and you know there'll be players who come in and go without seeing that new stadium because it's not going to be finished overnight. Um, but also I think you could you can reasonably say to players and and potential targets that you've got a foothold now and you can show them what you're planning for the summer and you can show them like what you're intending to do and what your recruitment model is and what your recruitment ideas are going to be from from that point onwards and you can you can put together a good pitch for them. There'll be some players who go elsewhere because they will be offer more money or they'll be going to clubs who are more successful or or higher up the food chain. But I would have thought if they're sensible this summer, they'll have a good chance of getting the targets that they want.

[00:24:26]>> Py Sha's a good example of that as well, isn't it? Like Leeds could have easily competed on a financial footing with um with Marseilles. Marseilles obviously had the higher level of football and there was sort of family influence trying to get to to the south of France and all that. Um but leadeds were always in a position to compete like financially just it wasn't quite attractive enough last year, but I suspect this year is the year when you can start to land those targets.

[00:24:47]>> Yeah. But then the the best recruitment departments, pretty much every recruitment department, always have second and third choices or at least fall backs, other other alternatives.

[00:24:55]Um, which again is is the way to go. I don't think they've missed him this season. You know, maybe they would have been a slightly better team again and maybe going forward he would have developed more rapidly than than others who are in that squad. Um, but they they got what they needed. Um, Calvin Leuen's been a a great signing um on a free Goodmanson. I was it was a shame he was injured on Friday cuz I was looking forward to seeing him properly in in the flesh. I was saying like I you you'll tell me because I don't really know but um Stark looks like a bit of a shout for player of the year and I would say Gmanson as well like they're the two I've I've most enjoyed watching when I when I've seen leads. So they kind of struck gold there and I think those two are players who can stick around for a while. You know they might have to make changes in other positions but those those two are good players. Actually, we were discussing, weren't we, who who the potential square ball player of the year is, as voted for by our our members. And actually, because Gmanson wasn't on the sheet in front of us because he hadn't played at the weekend, we didn't think about him, did we?

[00:25:47]>> How the How the hell has he got no assists this season? Every time I see him, >> I bought that ball at Old Trafford, which Calvin Lewin got on the end of right at the first minute. That should have gone in.

[00:25:58]>> Yeah. And this is the thing like leads get great like quality play and quality ball out of him down the left side. And so I was just researching through the squad before Friday's game. No goals, no assists. And I was thinking, I don't really understand how how that's happened. Um, but I think, you know, these things always balance out and and over time I think you'll get plenty plenty out of him. Yeah, I think he start would be a good shout. Calbert Leuen definitely in the mix. A lot of people on Friday were saying Aadoo's had a really really good year. They've just been super solid, haven't they?

[00:26:27]>> Just return to the stadium question as well. Um, I know it's going to be it'll be a couple of years till the new West Hand is done. Um, however, you are now in the position where you can show it to someone and say, "Look, if you're here in another couple of years time, if you see out this contract, we're going to be playing in front of, you know, 47,000, 50,000 people." So, it starts to become a real tangible thing, isn't it, that you can show to people.

[00:26:49]>> Well, that was always the issue, wasn't it? Um, back in kind of 2020 2021 when there was the talk of redeveloping the ground, there was the talk of a inner city training ground over on the Matthew Murray High School site moving away from Thor Arch which is has never happened.

[00:27:05]Um, >> wasn't even big enough that was it in the end when they looked at it?

[00:27:08]>> They did the feasibility study and then it it went nowhere after that. Thor Park's interesting actually because the lease on that must be up in 2029. I think it was 25 years >> when we had Caner on. Um, we asked him about that and he said they can't discuss the details of it. Um, but they'd come to an arrangement.

[00:27:27]>> Ah, okay.

[00:27:27]>> With the with the with the landlord. So, he said that but that's all I can say about it.

[00:27:30]>> Yeah, I thought that would be the case.

[00:27:32]Um, as far as I remember, you're not allowed to build property on that land anyway. So, I'm not sure it's a case of leads move out and suddenly you get massive housing developments there.

[00:27:41]Although, yes, I guess these things are always there to there to be challenged and there to be changed. But yeah, when four or five years ago talking about the stadium and the um the training ground, it was a bit um went pie in the sky because the intentions were there. But if people have been saying, "So when's this going to happen?" You know, when when we be playing in front of 60,000, the answer would have been, well, you kind of hopefully soon. Um whereas now you're right, you can say to people is actually up and running and the plans are there and it's gone through the council and we we kind of know what we're doing and I'm assuming the funding is is in place as well. So a good it's a really good selling point. Um but I say again I we'll totally miss Ellen Road as it is now. It won't be the same for me.

[00:28:24]>> When you went back on Friday, what was it that you kind of did miss? You sort of touching on that that sort of uh intense feeling that atmosphere.

[00:28:30]>> It's cuz we're so close to it, you say?

[00:28:33]>> Yeah. It's just been in the thick of it.

[00:28:35]I think you'd kind of hard to put your your finger on. Like I said, Twitter is really funny when it gets going like that. It's a it's a right old laugh. Um and I do kind of miss that as much as I don't miss the site generally. Um but the atmosphere is just it's just uber positive no matter how it is. Even if it's even if it's like spiky in there or it's fractious and people are getting at the team and people are getting it. um the club themselves. It's just an event um and it's always an occasion and I I can think of so few times particularly recently where I've gone in there and there hasn't been a bit of a buzz like it's always always just there and I do miss that as soon as got back into the ground I was like it's nice being here.

[00:29:19]It is like it's really really good fun but that doesn't mean that I want to go back to Tuesdays in Swansea if you know what I Nor do we to be perfectly honest.

[00:29:29]>> I've just realized like looking at the calendar this is we're one year on this this week as we record this after Solomon's winner at Plymouth which I remember getting to sort of springtime towards the back end of last year and going I am absolutely knackered >> and there are still eight games to go >> this like if we were in the Premier League now this would be done.

[00:29:49]>> Yeah.

[00:29:49]>> Obviously it's the same time frame from like the there's only a week's difference between the EFL and the and the Premier League. It's um it's a week later, isn't it? The Premier League kicks off, >> but even still, it's it's roughly the same time frame, start of season to end of season, but the the Championship season feels so long cuz there's just so much of it. This year has felt comparatively relaxing. Maybe because we've done all right, I think is part of it, but the difference is night and day.

[00:30:12]Um and I think that relentless kind of Yeah. that weekend, midweek, weekend midweek that you get counting them up, it's like it happens 13 times across the season. You get those double game weeks.

[00:30:22]It's >> Yeah. Absolutely. And and what are the NFL about to do? They're going to increase the championship playoffs from four to six, which I I can see why they want to do that. Um I hope it doesn't I hope it doesn't disrupt it or kind of take the sting out of it cuz they're really good and and you do look forward to them every year. Um but I think as I think it's easier to enjoy them neutally than it is to be involved like by that point you're absolutely digging into your last reserves of energy. um because it's like it's been 10 months and and as you say it's not like 10 months with long stretches off. You do get the international breaks in the Championship season, but then that forces it to go Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday constantly. Um and it's a it's a lot to a lot to wade through.

[00:31:05]>> I'm sure expanding the playoffs won't result in every team from about 15th upwards all overting themselves in January as they as they all get or only only five points off the playoffs or you get to the playoffs. Well, you never know. by Sammy Schmodics.

[00:31:19]>> It'll it'll just be even more of that, won't it?

[00:31:22]>> I I don't think I'd have done it personally. I think I'd have left it as it is, but football gets twitchy, doesn't it? Never never very good at sitting still.

[00:31:30]>> Get rid of all of my pull that ladder right up. Power up here.

[00:31:34]>> No more promotion and relegation. Thank you very much.

[00:31:36]>> Franchise model.

[00:31:38]>> Obviously not.

[00:31:39]>> Spurs. Spurs on Monday then. Uh what do you think's uh at stake for leads? Um assuming assume let's let's pretend it's going to be done by then. Is it Phil? um can lead to go there and play with some freedom. I just I've got a good feeling about Monday and maybe it's just because there's a general good feeling around at the minute or not? I don't know.

[00:31:54]>> Yeah, I mean I I was getting the impression from some of the um staff around Den Road on Friday night that they were very much hoping that the last three games would just be games they could enjoy, which I think they they probably will be able to. What's the stake for Leads? Um I suppose a little bit of money depending on league position, which always pays you more if you're higher up the table.

[00:32:11]>> 3 million per place.

[00:32:12]>> N it's worth having. Um, and I guess if you're invested in the idea of West Ham going down or the idea of Tottenham going down, then you'd want results to go a certain way. What I can't really work out is whether Spurs winning at Villa means they've turned a corner or are now any good because Villa's team was just weird and seemed to be totally designed to carry them through to the um, Europa League semi-final rather than than make anything of that particular fixture. Um, but I think it'll be a hard game. Does deservia whip them up for that?

[00:32:46]>> Yeah. Well, they have to, don't they? I mean, there's no two ways about it. We just have to make sure we we match their energy and a crowd that's going to be um It's ironic, isn't it? It's kind of kicked the atmosphere properly back into life when there's something at stake.

[00:32:56]>> Yeah. And plus, I mean, >> plus like up the road, you've got Arsenal who are probably going to win the Premier League title, are going to have a shot at the Champions League. It is absolutely not the season to go down, is it?

[00:33:06]>> No. Um what would you do, Michael, on on Monday, like team wise, keep it as it is? He he tends to stick rather than twist as far >> given we've had a nice long rest. You'd imagine if everyone's fit he'll probably go for the same again.

[00:33:17]>> Yeah, >> I feel like we do owe Spurs one.

[00:33:20]>> Well, earlier in the season, not just generally.

[00:33:21]>> Well, just generally I feel like they because they they saw off bit else, didn't they? They got us relegated.

[00:33:26]There was the game there where Harry Kane assaulted Melier and V chose not to look at it. There's just been a few if that was mad. That cool.

[00:33:35]>> You watch it. That's getting disallowed.

[00:33:37]Oh, it turns out it's not. All right.

[00:33:39]Well, fine. Yeah, I don't know. It feels like there's been a few games there that >> in even the game earlier in the season, I felt we were a little bit unlucky to have um >> better than them for a long spell.

[00:33:49]>> Yeah, I've some some weird things. Well, I keep missing us play Spurs, all those games you're describing. I've had I've had like back issues and um CO and stuff on the get yourself down there on Monday.

[00:34:00]>> Keep missing them.

[00:34:01]>> An awful long way. We don't need to be going back to London. We went for a cup semi-final. That didn't work out. Let's leave it for a bit.

[00:34:05]>> Just applied for a West Ham ticket today, >> right?

[00:34:08]to go watch us over the over an expanse of of tennis court or whatever it is you get to do from the away in there. So, we'll see. We'll see. But, um yeah, I feel like we owe Spurs. Let's just let's make it interesting down there even if it doesn't involve us. That's what I'm saying. Just the sport of it. Yeah.

[00:34:24]>> Yeah. Well, I mean, >> what a luxurious position to be.

[00:34:26]>> How much are the we end going to enjoy it if it's all going horribly wrong for sports? This is the point I was trying to make to be the eldest when she was on to me about the Twitter post. That's kind of how it is around here, you know.

[00:34:37]>> Just a set of bastards, aren't we? I mean, we have >> in the most affectionate way possible.

[00:34:41]I'd love you less if you weren't.

[00:34:43]>> We we be we genuinely have are going to have a big influence in in much the same way the mother are going to have a big say in the in the Scottish League title.

[00:34:49]We're going to have a big say in the in the relegation fight across the next uh next three games, but but the chance to just be dreadful about it to somebody.

[00:34:56]>> Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, it was a night of unprintable chance on Friday, wasn't it? or like or match day as you'd call it in less basically. Yeah. Um so yeah, it hasn't changed.

[00:35:09]>> And and quickly with one eye on on the summer, um you've got a right gig this summer, >> [ __ ] >> Yeah, I know.

[00:35:16]>> Where you going?

[00:35:17]>> I'm off to Los Angeles uh for five weeks for the World Cup with a with a little John up to Vancouver for the last >> Sounds awful, doesn't it?

[00:35:25]>> Sounds awful. And you say you don't want to go to Swansea?

[00:35:30]Um, so yeah, well enjoy that. Yeah, we've been recording. We've been you're actually we're going to bank a load of So we do we do the Phil Hey years, which is a a members show where we sort of look back on all the stuff that happened over the 18 years of um of you covering Lead United. And we've got into some fun topics like it's nice to reminisce and laugh about stuff like we did one about uh it was the MK Dawn's game in uh in 2008 that that's coming out in the uh next couple of weeks. Transfers that never happened. Uh you've even picked we've picked picked a bald 11 that's coming out in June. But we've been banking those basically to cover your absence. Um, so yeah, if you want to become a member, have a look at the squareball.net/ plus if you want to enjoy a little bit more, Phil. So yeah, we probably should go and crack on with that, shouldn't we?

[00:36:08]And >> yeah, let's do it. That's why I'll be wearing the same t-shirt.

[00:36:11]>> Abs. Yeah, we'll be wearing the same t-shirt for for five weeks if you're watching the video version of it. Um, yeah. So we'll we'll go bank a load of those. Um, if we don't see you in the meantime, Phil, um, here on the free feed, it would be good to get you back on at some point, maybe after the World Cup to um to talk about it, about how much you struggled >> the party.

[00:36:27]>> Yeah. with with your 5 weeks in in LA being a bachelor for for 5 weeks. I bet you just want to sleep, won't you?

[00:36:32]>> Well, I think that's it. Yeah, it'll probably take 5 weeks to sort out the jet lag.

[00:36:35]>> Yeah. If you could choose for hearts, by the way, just out of interest, do you would you rather have it confirmed in the Falerk game that your final home game or would you rather actually, assuming you're going to win it, would you rather win it at at Celtic?

[00:36:47]>> I would rather it was confirmed at the Fal game. Yeah, without a doubt. I can't go, you know, uh logistically I can't make it. So, my best man's taking the seat, which I'm really pleased about, actually. There's nobody I'd rather be there more apart from me. Um, >> when when did when did Hearts last win the league, Phil? I'm sure I'm sure you know I'm going to have a long wait.

[00:37:04]>> 1960.

[00:37:05]>> Oh, well, all nice and dead the next time then.

[00:37:09]>> Well, if it does happen, however you get to enjoy it, do enjoy it, please. Thank you very much. In much the same way that we for us >> that we did uh >> we did last year. That was fun, wasn't it?

[00:37:18]>> This it was about this time last year that we were we were doing it all the dancing through the city center and on the low fields and stuff. I hope you get your chance to do it. Cheers. Catch up soon. Yeah.

[00:37:26]>> Yeah.

[00:37:27]>> The Square Ball podcast.