Burnham To Review Early Release Scheme As Potential Release Of PC Harper’s Killers Sparks Outrage

[00:00:00]It was revealed overnight that the two other people who were in the car who were jailed for 13 years in 2020, that's Jessie Cole and Albert Bowers, might be released halfway through their sentences. So, we know that the early release scheme has sort of been a point of contention for quite some time. Uh the Conservatives had to put in their sort of brand of it uh just before they left office because of prison capacity.

[00:00:21]Labour continued it but added some sort of um some conditions to that. But, it's all set to change again in September, which is why there's the possibility and there's now this deadline of September where these two people might be released halfway through.

[00:00:35]>> Let's cut straight to the political chase. Andy Burnham says he will review the prisoner early release scheme. This comes after outrage at the news that two of the killers of PC Andrew Harper may be eligible to be released. The Prime Minister spoke to journalists a little earlier.

[00:00:52]>> I feel uh for the family, it's uh an appalling crime um that was uh committed. The main perpetrator uh will not be uh subject to any uh early release. Of course, others involved um have uh have potentially been identified. But, uh I've spoken to the new Justice Secretary. We will review the policy together and make further uh statements in due course.

[00:01:19]>> Andy Burnham there. Well, Ollie Cole is newsroom reporter for The Times. Ollie, remind us what the case of PC Harper's killing involved.

[00:01:26]>> Uh yeah, so this was Oh, hang on. I'm on this microphone over here. Give me a second.

[00:01:31]>> Let's get the right one.

[00:01:32]>> There we are. Um so, this goes back um to uh a case uh that people might remember where PC Harper uh was killed after um being dragged along by his ankles in a tow rope behind a car. Now, um the driver of that, as Andy Burnham said there, uh isn't up for early release. But, it was revealed overnight that the two other people who were in the the who were jailed for 13 years in 2020. That's Jessie Cole and Albert Bowers might be released halfway through their sentences. So, we know that the early release scheme has sort of been a point of contention for quite some time.

[00:02:08]The Conservatives had to pull in their sort of brand of it just before they left office because of prison capacity.

[00:02:13]Labour continued it but added some sort of some conditions to that. But, it's all set to change again in September, which is why there's the possibility and there's now this deadline of September where these two people might be released halfway through.

[00:02:27]>> As you say, the early release scheme has been very, very contentious. Everybody can understand why it is incredibly distressing for the families of victims if they know that prisoners are part of this early release scheme. But, obviously the reason for doing it is because of reaching capacity across our jails. So, at the same time we have to ask of this new Prime Minister, how does that part of the problem get solved?

[00:02:52]>> Yeah, exactly. And in the short term, there might be a little sort of political and prison capacity window that Andy Burnham can act within. So, at the moment there's around 3,000 spare prison places on the prison estate. And that's after years of the estate running really hot, being up at sort of 98, 99% capacity pretty much month on month. So, there is a slight potential political window here for Andy Burnham to look at that again, which is what he's promised to do today. The the difficulty is that this change in the scheme from September means that people on standard determinate sentences could come out earlier. So, after 40 or 50% of their term, prisoners due for release at the 67% point will be let out at 50. They might if they behave badly, they might get you know, denied release. But, the problem is it's not discriminate. So, once you get hit September, there actually isn't that mechanism that we've seen before to say, you know, people on manslaughter offenses or serious violence offenses or sexual offenses now are sort of outside of the frame of that possibility happening. So, that's where that sort of slight window of opportunity politically and through legislation could be managed. And that's where Andy Burnham and Alex Norris, who's just started now, is just a secretary and immediately has this on his plate, will be trying to work out, you know, what happens if we take this group of people out, what happens if we take that category of people out, and does that still balance with making sure that we've got enough capacity in our prisons before we can get more up and running, which as we know is a is a much longer-term headache.

[00:04:26]>> Yeah. Okay, let's talk about some of the other stuff around today. Andy Burnham was meant to be spending the day talking about caps on bus fares. It's only day two.

[00:04:34]Uh we've got another cost of living measure as he's promised. Tell us a bit more about this one.

[00:04:39]>> Yeah, so this is sort of um Andy Burnham's attempt quite early on in his premiership. And I think this is interesting from a sort of how um political this Labour Prime Minister is compared to Keir Starmer over the last two years. Because if you think of the big standout moments early on in Keir Starmer's premiership, the first one that we all remember was that winter fuel moment. So, that, you know, everything is going to be much worse for a lot longer than we thought, and you things will be good again, but uh not for some time. And that really set the government off on quite a sort of downward negative foot. What you can see here is Andy Burnham is trying to play the political campaign a little bit more quickly, especially early into his premiership and into the summer. So, um yesterday we had the VAT uh coming off electricity bills uh from October. Uh from next year and throughout next year, you've now got this £2 bus fare cap. And this is on individual journeys, so it won't apply in London where there's already a sort of cap uh on certain days and amounts of journeys you can take.

[00:05:38]But this is a flat £2 cap. It's something that Andy Burnham introduced in Greater Manchester when he was mayor.

[00:05:42]It's something the Tories then brought in uh under Boris Johnson. Uh Rishi Sunak sustained it. Keir Starmer put it back up to £3, Andy Burnham is now turning it back again. But you can see these are the sort of things that as far as the Burnham government is saying, "Look, a lot of the problems that the country faces are quite long-term." And that is going to be the big challenge for the for this government now is how do you actually balance the books in the third and fourth year of your administration against all these this rush of good news that you're playing at at the moment.

[00:06:12]But what he's trying to do at the moment is say, "Look, let's get you a bit of breathing space. Let's get some of this out ahead of the summer." It is difficult the funding for this £2 bus cap though because it's essentially the way they're funding it as far as most of us can make head or tail of it. They're essentially moving something from one piece of bit of a spreadsheet into another bit and almost spending the money twice. So that question of how >> Hang on a second. You're talking about the money going again and again. So essentially it comes out of >> I've had to spend a long time this morning working this out, but there is we basically we currently give grants to other countries to help them tackle climate change in the climate crisis through our climate agreements.

[00:06:51]So that money is given as a grant which means that when it comes to the Treasury in the books that money is spent. It's gone and it's never coming back again.

[00:06:59]What they're going to do is they're going to change that grant into a loan so that that money technically is coming back to them. But obviously we don't know over what amount of time, we don't know on what terms, we don't know what interest is going to be on it and we don't we're not aware of you know how long a gap we've got to fill, but it means that technically that money isn't down as already spent cuz it's loaned and you can spend it again. So it's a bit of Treasury trickery going on here.

[00:07:24]>> Okay. So we're basically spending a Christmas bonus fund in the summer before we know that the Christmas bonus fund is full.

[00:07:32]>> Yes, if you like. That that there we go.

[00:07:34]>> Okay. Do you know what? I'd [laughter] also be very interested to hear from our listeners about bus fares themselves because as [clears throat] you said we're operating in London, is quite complicated actually the bus journey thing in London. Quite often you have to take three different buses to complete your journey, which means that I'm afraid I'm quite ignorant about how much people are paying for bus fares. I would very much like to hear what this actually means to you and certainly if you're using buses to commute, then a £2 cap could mean an awful lot because the criticism yesterday Ollie was 45 quid is 45 quid. It actually works out at, you know, somewhere between 1 and 2 pounds a week for families with the VAT on electricity. So, it's a great start, but actually not huge. 033 003 2353 is our number this afternoon. And all of this Ollie, if we just pull the lens back a little bit, is underlining how hard it is to control the narrative as Prime Minister. Andy Burnham's had to do a little bit of naughty step action already, hasn't he? And and of of course it's complicated. I mean, in a way it should be complicated. You shouldn't be able to just deliver a message that lands all great.

[00:08:46]>> No, exactly. I I I think that, you know, there there is a there's going to be a difficult process here where Andy Burnham has essentially been, you know, campaigning in campaign mode as both a mayor outside of Westminster and then campaigning to become Prime Minister for quite some time. And, you know, a couple of number 10 insiders have already told me, people who've been through out a few administrations, that it's already becoming quite clear that Andy Burnham is having to get used to the reality of government and that is a totally different reality that you have to operate in.

[00:09:17]Like you say, he's had to sort of slap down a little bit Wes Streeting, the health secretary, and Siobhan McMood, the home secretary, today over some comments they made in the back of number 10 Downing Street. They went out and had a sort of cup of coffee after cabinet meeting yesterday and so that some of that audio leaked. They made a joke about releasing prisoners.

[00:09:37]What's interesting about it is there's a sort of like I I'm really torn on this as to how much does it stop us electing people who are just normal people if we come down on things like this, which is actually the reference and this is I only I picked this up immediately cuz I'm a political nerd, but if you think everyone around the cabinet is also a political nerd, then you can sort of understand where this comes from. Ken Clarke and Theresa May, there always used to be this joke uh, that Theresa May when she was Home Secretary and Ken Clarke was Justice Secretary, Theresa May way back to 2011-2012 used to say, "Well, you know, the thing is with Ken is I lock him up and he lets them out." And that is the sort of relationship between Home Secretary and Justice Secretary. So, the pair are referencing that joke. The problem is the context as we started this conversation is you've currently got an early release scheme that is perhaps getting even more broad and too broad for public tastes coming down the track in September. You're not talking about it uh, and you've just been reappointed to cabinet and you've made a joke in that area. That's where it leaves perhaps a bit of taste in the mouth, but but it is difficult because if if you are a Westminster type, you end up referencing things that a lot of other people don't really understand.

[00:10:48]>> Yeah, and and there is a dark kind of humor involved in politics, involved in many places actually, many workplaces, but I absolutely hear you because then when it comes out into the open, it has normal oxygen around it, it can feel [clears throat] really, really offensive. Uh, Ollie, thank you very much indeed. That's Ollie Cole. Let's turn our attention now to the north. One surprise addition to Andy Burnham's government is the Scottish Labour leader, Anas Sarwar, who's expected to resign his position to become a minister in Westminster. Let's talk to Daniel Sanderson, who is The Times's Scottish political editor. Uh, Daniel, thank you for your patience.

[00:11:25]Tell us a little bit more about what you know about this and and why Anas Sarwar would be important to Andy Burnham's government.

[00:11:34]>> Well, I think I've he's seen as a talented politician, you know, he's he's uh despite the poor election result um a few a few weeks ago, he's seen as someone who can, you know, perhaps sell Britain on a on a global stage, which perhaps explains why he's being made a a business minister. But yeah, our information is, you know, this is all come together relatively relatively recently um very few people knew about it. Like we got wind of this sort of yesterday afternoon. We were asking people if it was true. Um They were denying it, but it turns out they they they just didn't know about it. So, yeah, a real shock um and it's it's it'd be very controversial, to say the least, in Scottish Labour.

[00:12:20]>> So, Sarwar was the first big Labour name to call for Keir Starmer to go. And on the day he did that, there were quite few mutterings about whether or not Wes Streeting might have had a little chat with him. Other people who wanted to throw their hat into the ring might have had a little chat with him. That seemed to be the direction of travel, but of course we changed now, haven't we? Do you think it's more likely that he had a chat with Andy way back then, or is Andy only chatting to him relatively recently?

[00:12:45]>> Yeah, well, it's well, it's an interesting thing about that. I mean, on that I think it was a Monday when he um when he had called for Keir Starmer to quit. Um and he was pretty open. He said he'd spent the weekend, you know, taking soundings from people across the Labour Party. Um we don't know for sure he spoke to um we he spoke to Andy Burnham. We know he did speak to Wes Streeting, but we're trying to find out, but I I don't think it would be a surprise at all if he if he did. I mean, um you know, they they they we know they were they're fairly close. They've got a decent working relationship, you know, Anas as leader of Scottish Labour uh and Andy at the time as mayor of Greater in there was an obvious sort of uh sort of overlap there. So, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had spoken, but I think the idea that, you know, this was all sort of some sort of plot going back to then is probably is probably a conspiracy too far when you think back to, you know, back then in in February, Andy Burnham wasn't really seen as, you know, one of the front-runners.

[00:13:49]>> No, I mean, I defy anyone to have had a very clear master plan of British politics [laughter] over the last 5 years. So, anyway, Daniel, uh how big a problem does this leave for his Labor colleagues?

[00:14:01]>> Well, I think it's going to be it it it it's seen as potentially a a pretty big problem in Scotland, you know, it means that there's going to be uh a leadership contest. And if there's one thing Scottish Labor know how to do, it's it's how to have a divisive uh leadership contest. Um there's all sorts of ideas that are already floating around around, you know, breaking ties with um the UK party perhaps having some sort of new offer on the constitution, which would potentially be very divisive, you know, the factionalism between left and right of the party up here.

[00:14:39]So, there's that which which is causing a lot of concern. And, you know, there's just real anger, I think, at um at the timing of this, if not the fact that Anas Sarwar is stepping down. I mean, he spent weeks um telling everyone that, you know, there was no prospect of this, that he was staying for the full term. And, you know, there's a feeling perhaps that he's feeling upwards a bit having just led Labor Scottish Labor at their worst-ever performance at a Scottish Parliament election.

[00:15:10]>> So, if you were a betting man, Daniel, on whom would you be placing a little flutter?

[00:15:17]>> Uh I think the front-runner is uh a guy called Michael Marra who is the current finance spokes spokesman.

[00:15:27]Um He's He's more of a centrist or you know, he's he's a very bright, very ambitious, but there is likely to be a challenge from interestingly because Anas is leaving that the next person on the regional list gets in and that's Monica Lennon who is more on the left of the party and has stood for the leadership before.

[00:15:46]Anas actually beat her fairly narrowly in 2021. So, you know, she'll have a lot of support.

[00:15:52]Paul Sweeney, who's a Glasgow MSP, he's um seen as one of the few in the Hollywood group who's particularly close to Andy Burnham. So, you know, if if Burnham threw his weight behind him, um that could be significant. So, it's pretty open at the minute. I think uh Michael Marra is the early early frontrunner, but um yeah, all to all to play for.

[00:16:13]>> Thank you very much indeed. That's Daniel Sanderson who is The Times's Scottish political editor.