AGNOSTIC Says the Universe Was "Created" ?! feat. Promise

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-20

[00:00:00]Hi everyone, thanks for watching. Most of the content on my channel is supported by generous patrons, but made available for free to the entire world.

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[00:00:15]This clip, however, is from one of the many programs that I do on YouTube, on The Line. And if you liked it, feel free to visit, like, subscribe, and watch The Line Network live. Thank you. John in Texas, pronouns he/him. John's an agnostic who wants to explain why he's agnostic and not atheist.

[00:00:36]Something had to create the universe.

[00:00:38]Oh.

[00:00:40]How do you know that's true, John?

[00:00:41]>> Can you hear me?

[00:00:42]Yeah.

[00:00:44]Well, that's that's why um I'm calling. So, I grew up believing in God.

[00:00:52]Then I had doubts.

[00:00:55]Then I was atheist.

[00:00:57]But then I just leave a like a.1% chance that could be something because I'm sorry. The only thing I can't John, do you think an atheist is someone who's absolutely certain and that there are no gods and who denies any possibility that there could be a god?

[00:01:17]Um No.

[00:01:21]No, I think well, atheist I when I was a atheist, I just basically said, "No, I don't believe." I was like >> I'm not asking so No proof of God. John I don't believe there's a god.

[00:01:32]That's it. That's why I'm an atheist. Do you believe there's a god? Right.

[00:01:38]I don't think there is, but I There you go, you're an atheist.

[00:01:45]Okay. But Okay, all right, so let me ask you this.

[00:01:49]If when the universe is created how can something >> Where's the evidence Where's the evidence that the uni- the evidence that the universe was created?

[00:02:00]Well, well, all these scientists, I mean, there's they talk about the Big Bang and how there's this mass, I mean, then the energy, then it just exploded and then the universe exploded. So, but we had to get here somehow, so we don't think that >> Okay, that's not that's not an answer to anything that that's not an answer to anything I asked. I You said the universe was created. Science does not make that claim.

[00:02:24]Where's the evidence that the universe was created?

[00:02:27]Well, science makes a claim about the Big Bang, right? I mean, they they claim that >> Big Bang The Big Bang is a mathematical cosmological description of the expansion of the universe. It does not in any way claim that the universe was created.

[00:02:42]Okay.

[00:02:44]Okay. Okay, but okay. But let me ask you this. What Do Do you have any idea how all of us got here? How the universe How the moon, the Earth, the solar system, all that stuff. Do you have any idea how that got here?

[00:03:00]Yes.

[00:03:04]What would you say that is?

[00:03:06]Well, the current best scientific descriptions show that the planets in most solar systems and probably ours formed gravitationally from the remnants of the accretion disk of the formation of the sun. And whether or not our moon was something that was formed from that or was some other stellar body that was captured, I personally don't know because I don't spend much time um looking into that.

[00:03:31]>> that's I'm I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You asked me a question, I was giving you the the answer. And that is, while we don't have a full explanation for the origin of absolutely every bit of change that's occurred uh specifically, um you asked if I had any idea. And so, the answer is, yes, I have some ideas, but we haven't solved all all the questions, and at no point does Big Bang cosmology claim that the universe was created. So, where's your evidence the universe was created?

[00:04:00]Well, that's I'm just going by what what the history like the scientists and say stuff about the I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm I'm I'm never ever ever ever ever going to let you misrepresent science, John. You're not going on science.

[00:04:17]Science does not make any sort of claim that the universe was created. Science is based on methodological naturalism, does not make claims about the supernatural at all.

[00:04:27]So, where is the evidence >> when I what's the name Where is the evidence that the universe was Where is your evidence that the universe was created?

[00:04:37]Okay, let me just ask this. I don't have I don't have the >> me let me get an answer, John. Let me get an answer to the question I've now asked you four or five times while I've repeatedly answered your questions.

[00:04:47]Where is the evidence for your claim that the universe was created?

[00:04:54]Well, I don't have the evidence. That's that's the crux of the situation. So, >> do you believe something without evidence?

[00:05:01]Well, that's the crux of that's why I'm I'm I'm I'm calling because we're here on on Earth, right? There's there's other planets >> Why do you believe something without evidence, John?

[00:05:14]Well, I believe there's planets because there are planets. I can see the planets. There's a sun. I can see the sun.

[00:05:19]>> Why do you believe something without evidence? I didn't mention planets in my question at all. You're advocating for a position and you are advocating for a position and when asked for the evidence, you acknowledge you don't have evidence. If I don't have evidence for a position If I don't have evidence for a position, I don't assert that position.

[00:05:37]Why are you advocating for a position that you do not have evidence for?

[00:05:43]You're You're misconstruing to come of what I was talking about.

[00:05:46]>> misconstruing. John, John, you claimed the Earth with that you claimed the universe was created, correct?

[00:05:54]Correct.

[00:05:55]And then I asked you what your evidence was and you said you didn't have any, correct?

[00:06:00]And that right, and that's why >> Correct? I'm I'm sorry. When I I asked you what your evidence was and you said you didn't have any, correct?

[00:06:12]Correct. That That's That's correct.

[00:06:13]>> say that you are advocating for a position for which you do not have evidence, I'm accurately reflecting what you said and I'm not misconstruing a [ __ ] thing, am I, John?

[00:06:25]Correct. So, but here's the thing.

[00:06:27]>> accuse me of mis- Then why did you accuse me of misconstruing what I clearly did not [ __ ] misconstrue, you liar?

[00:06:34]You're You're trying to lead this to something where I'm I'm not trying to make my main point.

[00:06:41]>> you accuse me of misconstruing something that I didn't [ __ ] misconstrue?

[00:06:47]I didn't, but you're you're trying to you're trying to make >> liar, John. Rewind the tape. You accused me of misconstruing this.

[00:06:55]Well, you're taking it somewhere where I'm not even talking about >> You're a [ __ ] liar, John. You know what I'm going to do, John? John, I'm going to save you from public embarrassment. I'm going to stop talking to you now because I [ __ ] hate liars and I hate people who argue dishonestly >> Okay, but you're not letting me get to my point. You're not letting me get to my point.

[00:07:11]>> I I You're a [ __ ] liar. I did not I did Hang on. Hang on. I'm going to let you talk to Promise and see how she deals with a [ __ ] lying piece of [ __ ] who just accused me of not letting him get to his point when I repeatedly asked you for your point and I answered your [ __ ] questions and then you accused me of [ __ ] misconstruing something I didn't. You're a liar, John, but Promise may do better with you than I do cuz I [ __ ] hate you.

[00:07:36]I'm I'm sure I'm sure she will because you sound like a lunatic because I have >> John, I hate John. John, John, I I don't Pardon of me hearing this, I feel like there might be a communication issue happening on both sides. I don't know.

[00:07:47]Maybe not at all. Maybe I'm the one who's confused. So, I want So, John.

[00:07:51]John. John.

[00:07:53]John, I'm in the middle of speaking, so just let me get to my point, please.

[00:07:57]So, I would like to ask you, do you know what created means? Because created implies a creator, and I don't I'm wondering if you don't understand that that's what you're saying over and over again. Because like, I wouldn't say the universe was created.

[00:08:13]I would say that it's it came to be, or I would use some other term, because I don't think there is a creator. Do you know the difference between those? Are you or are you maybe just using the word created, and that's not what you mean?

[00:08:25]Well, maybe I'm just saying how the universe is. So, if I if you're saying I'm saying it created, and it shouldn't be created, we can go by your your your verbiage. So, let me ask you this way.

[00:08:38]Do you think that the universe has a creator? Do you believe that the universe has a creator that created it?

[00:08:46]Okay, thank you. That is the That's my main question. Like So, that's why I have this small percentage, because I can't get to the I can't For everything else out there, something has to come from something else. Like, something can't come from nothing, right? That's how I've I've always thought.

[00:09:08]So, we're here on this planet. There's a sun. There's the the universe. There's solar system. There's other planets.

[00:09:15]Other galaxies.

[00:09:17]How did that get here? Because what However way you may think, it's here.

[00:09:22]So, So, how did something get created?

[00:09:26]>> Okay, let me see if I'm Let me see if I'm catching what's what's going on here. Because I don't I think you're coming off like you're trying to argue a point, and now I think I'm realizing I don't think you're arguing a point. I think you're confused. Is that true? Is that you trying to say like, I don't understand. I I don't know where this all came from, so therefore I feel like I have to remain not an atheist. Is that what Is that what's this conversation is about?

[00:09:53]>> because I'm not I'm not arguing. Like what's what's your co-host I I like your co-host. I like what he's saying. He can >> I love Matt. So and I think that there was some things said that I if I were the one talking to you, I also would have thought you were being argumentative cuz when you're in the conversation in the flow of conversation, it goes very differently.

[00:10:11]The only thing is I'm sitting here being lazy doing nothing, and I happened to catch the created word, and I've talked to somebody very recently who used the word created when they didn't mean it.

[00:10:20]So I think it went down an argumentative path that apparently neither of that wasn't what was happening. I don't know.

[00:10:26]Anyways, let's get to that topic. So would you say that it's fair to say you're calling in to ask us, how do you get over the fact that you don't understand where the universe came from?

[00:10:39]That's exactly my point. Yes, correct.

[00:10:43]Okay, I don't know where the universe came from. I don't know what happened before the Big Bang. And that's and I'm content to leave it there. There are um people like Matt and Forrest who can give you a way better answer, and I think give you some of the specu- not speculations. I don't know what you would call it. Hopefully Matt will help me out in a second, but for me, I still definitely don't believe there's a god. But I have no idea what may have, you know, been the first cause or what the origins and all of that are.

[00:11:18]Right, and that's and that's why I have I leave like a 0.1% chance because it's something was somehow formed or whatever the universe um and how can something be formed out of nothing?

[00:11:37]I don't know. It's just out of or whatever. It's because it's starting from zero. That's that's the only thing I can't fathom or see.

[00:11:45]>> Personally, I I don't think there To me, it seems like there probably wasn't ever nothing. Cuz once we start defining nothing, then it like it is something.

[00:11:56]And I think that we just haven't figured all of that out yet.

[00:12:01]Right. But I like your your Instagram videos and things like that. I like I just discovered you today and all that stuff. So, yeah. So, you you make a lot of sense.

[00:12:14]Your co-host makes a lot of sense, too.

[00:12:17]But >> He's who I learned from. So, so if I'm making any kind of sense, it's because I've had some really good teachers. And that's the thing. I started from a position where I I had no idea. But I had to sit back and be honest and just say, "Well, I don't know." And then I had to go one step further and be honest and say, "And I don't believe." So, I actually, crazy enough, I stopped believing in a god before I was willing to be like, "Oh, maybe evolution is true." Because I had been so indoctrinated against it. And yet I was still able to let go of my god belief because I was being honest.

[00:12:55]Because to me, those two things don't have to stay intertwined. I I either believe that there's a god or there isn't. And the other things about the universe are are other issues.

[00:13:06]Right. Yeah, and that's and that's a little like that when you're agnostic, you're basically saying I'm not saying there is or I'm not saying there isn't.

[00:13:13]It's just like there's no proof kind of either way, but I No. I'm like 99.9% like Jesus.

[00:13:23]Agnostic is not some middle ground between theist and atheist. You don't even know what agnostic means.

[00:13:30]Okay, can you tell me?

[00:13:32]Yes.

[00:13:33]In the same way that knowledge is a subset of belief, gnostic and agnostic are subsets of positions. And so, the positive position of there is a god, a belief, you can be convinced that you know that there is a god, in which case you would be a gnostic theist. Or, you can say I believe in a god, but I don't necessarily believe that I know that there's a god, which means you would be an agnostic theist. The notion that there is a middle ground between being convinced that there is a god and not being convinced is a logical fallacy.

[00:14:07]There is no middle ground between I am convinced of X and I am not convinced of X. Those are direct logical negations.

[00:14:15]There is a difference between there is a a middle position between I am convinced X is true and I am convinced X is false. And this is why at the beginning when you said you're not an atheist because you originally left 0.2%, but you since changed that to 0.1% cuz I'm anal and take notes on stuff.

[00:14:35]Um I have no idea what percentage I leave for a possibility that a god exists because nobody's ever demonstrated that anything supernatural is possible, let alone plausible.

[00:14:48]But that doesn't mean it's impossible. I don't have to believe that it's impossible.

[00:14:54]And as an atheist, I remain unconvinced that a god exists, but that doesn't mean that I'm convinced that no gods exist, although I seem to be largely convinced that no gods exist as far as the ones I'm able to be presented with. There is no middle ground between I believe it's Tuesday and I don't believe it's Tuesday.

[00:15:12]Agnostic addresses knowledge.

[00:15:15]Theism and atheism address belief.

[00:15:17]Knowledge is a subset of belief.

[00:15:22]Got it.

[00:15:24]Thank you.

[00:15:27]Uh Yeah, I just um I've always I don't know, I just always had this always like that it's a universe and all that stuff. It's just always made it difficult where it's like, well But you don't know. Yeah, I like that.

[00:15:48]>> Yeah. When somebody When somebody asked me Matt, what's your explanation for the why there's something rather than nothing?

[00:15:56]Well, my answer is, I don't know. I don't even know how there could be a nothing.

[00:16:00]Uh science doesn't propose there is or was a nothing. It would be absurd to say that there was a nothing that something could act on. It's one of the most obvious problems with the various god models is that some of them have a god acting on a nothing. And you even said it a little earlier, you're like, something can't come from nothing.

[00:16:16]Nobody's proposing that something came from nothing except for the theists who are posing uh proposing that their god can make something come from nothing but itself. Science doesn't claim that something came from nothing. Science doesn't claim that nothing in its in its true sense is possible. The closest it gets is is um uh a mathematical nothing where the values cancel themselves out, but you don't seem to be well versed in what science has to say at all about big bang cosmology, about uh the formation of stars and planets or any of that. And so you just look at it all as a big mystery. And so for me, when somebody says how did the universe come to be? My answer is, I don't know.

[00:17:04]But your answer should definitely be I don't know because you don't even know as much about it as the people who studied it for years. I'd recommend tuning into something like Skeptalk on Monday night.

[00:17:16]Um and uh [ __ ] yourself, Garland. Um anyway, sorry, I got distracted by somebody in chat saying religion must have really hurt me. No, it didn't. I never had a bad experience, not once.

[00:17:33]I had no I have no I do not suffer from religious trauma. You know what I suffer trauma from? Stupidity and lies.

[00:17:41]And in the case where John, in his confusion, desperate to to try to make something clear, isn't being precise, and then when I walked John to the precision of you said this and you said this and those things are in conflict, um John falsely accused me of misconstruing it because he wanted to talk about something that wasn't what he actually said.

[00:18:07]And Promise got there, so congrats.

[00:18:12]I But yeah, I would it's all just about the universe thing that that's Oh, but yeah, I I basically agree with what you both say, you know, like um and like in the thoughts on all this, it just I don't really think there's a god or anything like that. I I I don't buy that. I I'd always kind of just left a small chance because of unanswered questions, so that's why I'm like, I I don't know. So >> I I would say don't leave a small chance or a big chance, just be open to whatever is true. So, for me, I'm an atheist, but if I ever have reason to believe that a god exists, I would like to believe that because I want to believe true things.

[00:18:59]Um and I don't have to, you know, like leave a little bit of space. I don't have to leave a little bit of space for all kinds of beliefs of mine that could change over time because I just have to stay consistent as a person who values truth. That's all I have to do. So, I would advise you to to look at it more that way and it sounds like you're off to a cool place with it and just trying to learn more and I would encourage you to do that. I think you'd really like um like Matt said listening to some of them or like the Skeptalk hosts and stuff too who talk about all of this um and you know, maybe call in with some of your questions that specifically relate to the universe um and see what they have to say.

[00:19:42]Got it. I I appreciate both of you answering.

[00:19:47]Thanks, John. Thanks, John. Thanks for calling. Good luck.

[00:19:50]All right.

[00:19:51]Bye.

[00:19:52]Keep asking the questions.

[00:19:56]Yeah, it So, John's an unusual case because he's calling to say, "Ooh, here's why I'm a agnostic and not an atheist." And right off the bat the second I hear that I'm like, "Oh, clearly the person doesn't, you know, >> Right. know the terminology here is miss something.

[00:20:11]And so then when it was like, "Oh, well, the universe was created. Something can't come from nothing." I'm like, "What am I This is all like the most basic thing."

[00:20:22]And yet somehow I I misconstrued it um but all it really was was kind of what I said at the beginning when I asked him, "John, do you think atheist is someone who absolutely rules out any possibility that there's ever a god?" And I'm not convinced that we got an answer for that, but it's clear that he stuck with that the whole time because he's like, "I leave a 0.2%. I leave a 0.1%." Which now you're just making up numbers and throwing them around. Uh I don't know you know, don't even try to call and say I don't I haven't ruled it out.

[00:20:53]And that's fine.

[00:20:54]>> Yeah, I have a feeling that it's somebody that probably hasn't maybe ever listened to the show before because I know I posted this and so sometimes we get new callers and I wonder if they you know, it's why we we have to have like uh something formed at the beginning of the call. Is it a question? Are you making an assertion? And often times we have somebody that I don't think they even know what they're coming to us with.

[00:21:22]But my laziness of just sitting here not doing anything paid off because I was like my weird OCD is picking up something with the word created not being used exactly right and that's going to bother me and now I have to find out. So Hi, thanks for watching. If you enjoyed that or if you think you have better arguments for the supernatural or God, the Sunday show is live at 2:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. every Sunday on the line.

[00:21:45]Links below.