Bitcoin Is the Black Belt of Personal Finance

追加: 2026-05-13

[00:00:07]Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. How are you guys doing today?

[00:00:12]>> I like that one. Raf >> works for everybody.

[00:00:16]>> I I literally just came up with that. I was like, "Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening." I did it when I did my own live streams, but it's a couple of months ago that I did that and I was like, "That's a nice one." because other people live in other time zones.

[00:00:29]But yeah, >> but listen to this Robin. You're you're right because right now it's morning for Forest, >> it's afternoon for Rajad, Jor, Brandon, and it's evening for Robin. So >> Yep.

[00:00:40]>> It's It's true.

[00:00:42]>> It's the worldwide show. That's it.

[00:00:44]>> I like that one. I like that.

[00:00:45]>> Global show.

[00:00:46]>> It's a global show, and it only has facts, so it has to be true.

[00:00:52]>> True.

[00:00:54]I meant I I uh named that episode today.

[00:00:57]Bitcoin is the black belt of of personal finance. For some reason today, I was thinking about karate and and fighting and how it's unfair if you come to a fist fight with a gun. if it's unfair to to come to like someone is trying to wrangle you and you just have the better tool whatever it is the the the long stick and the other one just has fists like whatever the the analogy is and that's how I look at Bitcoin because I was just back at the family uh the the past weekend and I talked with people about finances and I was like I I have if I'm doing 50% % worse in my job than than you do, I will be better off in life because I have Bitcoin and you you like keep your things in in fiat. And that's why I like that that's was kind of the inspiration I had for this talk uh about Bitcoin is the black belt of of personal finance.

[00:01:58]>> Yeah. What's interesting about that too is um I would say part of where the analogy might fall apart is if you get in a fight with somebody and you have no skills and they have a black belt and they know how to fight, it's very obvious. But if you like, you know, I'm I'm kind of thinking about the the Punter Jeff Coffeezilla um discussion again where coffee can just say I don't think Bitcoin's going up by 30%. Right.

[00:02:30]And it's it's it's almost like the bit the Bitcoin black belt isn't like kicking his ass right now. Just isn't just like showing him that he's completely wrong. It's this subtle sort of long game where you know five ten years down the road you just end up being right and everyone has to concede right they get tapped out by Bitcoin at that point because it's just like oh yeah you were right you know it just took a little bit of time and took me probably forgetting about Bitcoin for a couple of years while it did its thing in the background and built purchasing power for you.

[00:03:06]I think there's a a good example actually happened today. Perfect uh kind of timing, but somebody some random person came into my live stream this morning and they're like, "Gold is shit." Or sorry, Bitcoin is [ __ ] If you would have uh it went from 126 to 80K, that's like taking $3 and all of a sudden it's only worth $2 and all these things. And it's like he he was right.

[00:03:27]Like the he was factually correct with that. But what he's missing there, and that's kind of what I pointed out to him, is like you can kind of cherrypick any point in time and even even Forester, it's like when we get back to 126 and then 226 in fiat terms, nobody's going to say you were right. Nobody's going to say, "Oh [ __ ] I should have got Bitcoin." They're going to wait for it to come down again. It's going to drop from 226 to 150 and then they're going to just keep saying the same thing because they don't understand what's happening here. And and that's that's the whole point is like to get a black belt, it takes a lot of work. You can't just show up at somebody's place and pay for it or spend a 10-minute lesson to get your black belt. It takes a lot of time. And that's kind of what I I tried explaining to him is like you're you're still seeing the world through a fiat lens. And 126 to 80, yeah, it's gone down, but nobody should be buying Bitcoin with money that they're going to need in the next four to five to 10 years. I I think that's what people get the most wrong in Bitcoin is that they're like, "Oh, Bitcoin's going up or somebody told me about Bitcoin. I'm going to take my $500 savings account, which I might need in 6 months from now or a year or whatever. I'm going to put it in Bitcoin and then when it goes down, I'm going to panic sell it or I'm going to be mad at whoever told me to buy it. So, I just think that if people kind of went with a much longer term lens of Bitcoin through the Bitcoin lens and said, "Whatever money I'm not going to need, I'm going to leave this in here for 10 years." Nobody would ever be disappointed in terms of the result of that, assuming, you know, nothing crazy happens. But just historically speaking, what what I expect to happen here is that you got to put in the time to understand it, but you also have to take a longer term lens at this and use Bitcoin, use money to buy Bitcoin that you're not going to need in the next five years. Like it's really not that complicated.

[00:05:13]I I think part of being a black belt in karate is what however you say it uh part of being a black belt is going through different situations and understanding okay this is what would happen if this person attacked me in this way >> and that's exact I I actually like I really like the I really like the the analogy that Robin came up with because that's exactly what's happening with Bitcoin right when you have different kinds of FUD like let's say for example Jor the guy who you the guy who you who came to your to your live stream, he said, "Oh, Bitcoin dropped." Maybe somebody who's new to Bitcoin, maybe they'd be like, "Oh, maybe that's something that means that Bitcoin is [ __ ] Maybe I shouldn't own Bitcoin because of that." But because you've gone through it so many times, you're like, "Okay, you're you're an idiot for even thinking that cuz it it h I mean, we expect the volatility."

[00:06:06]>> Yeah.

[00:06:06]>> And that's partly what being a black belt is about, right? You go from being a white belt to being whatever the the belts in between are. I don't know what they are, but >> yellow, orange, >> there you go. Brown, whatever it is, but basically you're going through them and you're getting different kinds of experience. You're dealing with different kinds of opponents. And I think that's part of in a way I think that's part of um that what's it called?

[00:06:29]the Dunning Krueger effect where if you're a white belt, you're so confident, you're thinking, I I can kick people and I can do this and but you're like at the peak of Mount Stupid because you're going to get your ass kicked.

[00:06:39]Whereas if you're a black belt, you don't want to fight other people and you don't want to like you don't want to get into conflicts, but if you do get into conflict, then you're going to kick their ass.

[00:06:48]>> Mhm.

[00:06:48]>> Right. And that's exactly what it is.

[00:06:50]So, with uh with you brought up uh the Coffeezilla uh interview, Forest, uh I think if it was a a white belt and if it was somebody who hadn't studied Bitcoin the way that Jeff has, maybe they'd be like, "Oh, yeah, everything you're saying makes a lot of sense and it would be emotional for them." But if you're a black belt, it's more logical and you're thinking more about where this person and you're play you're where what this person's next move is going to be.

[00:07:15]you're thinking more about uh you're playing chess rather than playing checkers. And that's exactly what Jeff did. He kind of countered every single thing that uh Coffee said and he it was like all the stuff that he said was pretty much irrelevant. It was just all based on feelings and he knew how to counter it.

[00:07:34]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's wild. I mean, you guys made so many great points right there and I I just think of time horizon in so much of this, too. And it's it's wild to me why so many people and it's probably just people looking for something to hate on Bitcoin. You know, you're you're trying to confirmation bias, right? Like so many people have made their decision on Bitcoin, whether it's they spent, you know, 3 seconds or a minute or uh 30 minutes looking at Bitcoin and like okay cuz it's easy, you know, like the humans, we don't want to do work. We're path of least resistance.

[00:08:02]So it's easy when like who was the guy on Patrick McDavid that went on like a month or two ago and I I know we talked about him but he was that actor and he was like [ __ ] on Bitcoin for like 15 20 minutes and like he just sound like a [ __ ] like for from a Bitcoiner perspective the guy had clearly put in very little work but then like you have millions of people that are like oh yeah like I knew it confirmation bias and it's like oh yeah like yes I don't have to do any work like I knew this was a scam and then you have the same guy the same guy if you would have turned around and talked 15 20 minutes straight about how amazing Bitcoin was and the property and what it does to fix society and the re you know reorient the architecture of society and the incentives still you have had 99% of people been like oh what a scam like no there's no way like it's just too much work you know let's go to zero it's a ponzi and so it is it's fascinating like the paradox that we we kind of live in and it's and George I think you and I talked about this yesterday but the the time horizon again messes with everyone it's the also the um the feedback loops right like when someone crosses the highway and they they see someone get hit by a car it's like an instant feedback loop are like, "Oh, okay. I'm not doing that." Or playing Russian roulette and then they see someone, you know, take themselves out and like, "Oh, okay. I I shouldn't do that." But for money, it it's it sucks because it's such a long feedback loop. And you have this world where they can scam you with the currency printer.

[00:09:18]We can go decades, we could go centuries, and where people are just like they can't make the connection in their head because the feedback loop is too long and they can't see it. It's too obiscated. And it's the perfect sinister evil plan. probably the most evil plan that you could ever have and and the devil knows that and and that's the game that we we are all we're on this chessboard. Most people just don't know they're on that chessboard and and that's the unfortunate part and that's why we all show up every day to to educate people hopefully and you know convert people over to that this new world. Um so you have to get into the breach. You have to the fatal funnel that we've talked about before like Bitcoiners we didn't wake up one day as a Bitcoiner. You have to go through the the the experience, the work, the pain, the sorrow, blood, sweat, and tears. Put in the work, you know, get dragged through the mud, get burned, get rugpulled. All of us have these different stories of these things happening to us. And that's what makes you a Bitcoiner on the other side in in some way, shape, or fashion. So, it's, you know, the crypto crowd, you know, the altcoin bros, the meme coiners, all the, you know, the GMC or GME, the AMC people, all that is just people. I saw a guy the other day and I mentioned this somewhere that he was AI bro on YouTube and he's like I was one of the biggest NFT influencers blah blah blah. Now like a lot of us have gravitated to AI and just like said it like as matter of fact like he was pumping his own like how good he was. It was like you didn't see anything wrong with anything you just said there which is just so wild to me where it's like we're just we're so like lost right now unfortunately and just like this forth turning and so obiscated so so removed from reality and truth that people you know hundreds of thousands of of subscribers on YouTube and he can't see it. He's just jumping from one thing to the next saying, you know, God love him because the incentives of fiat are as such. It's the sand is going through your hands. So you're trying to figure out any way you can make a buck and he doesn't even see the error in his ways that if you just took a few minutes to change the money that didn't steal from you, all society starts flipping its incentives and how it's structured. So here we are, boys.

[00:11:08]Here we are. It's it's a good lesson there, too, I think, because if you really think about it, think about all the all the things that we've been through, the five of us. And and I mean, you compare it to a black belt, you don't really get a black belt unless you've probably got gotten [ __ ] kicked a couple times, right? Like really, I don't think anybody would just get to that point of of that status without having gone through some some stuff.

[00:11:30]>> He's a good teacher.

[00:11:31]>> Exactly. And I think that the other thing too there is the is the education part of it because that's what I said to the guy in the stream this morning, too.

[00:11:38]They said Bitcoin hasn't changed. The protocol itself hasn't changed. In fact, from now to 6 months ago, Bitcoin is actually probably much more powerful.

[00:11:46]There's probably more people who understand Bitcoin. But you're measuring in the fiat system through that lens.

[00:11:52]And there's a big disconnect in education there. And that's really what fluctuates that that's the whole thing that's going up and down is because nobody understands this thing. Some people see it as speculative. Some people see it as investment. Some people think it's something they can buy and flip in a week and they get burned. They just don't understand. They don't know what's going on here. And so that's really what's going up and down. Bitcoin is not changing. It's the rest of the world that's that's slowly catching on to this thing. But that, you know, with volatility comes conversations like this where you can see, okay, well, it's come down. I can buy more real units for the fake units that I have here. It's good.

[00:12:28]But you have to go through the the time to understand why that's a good thing.

[00:12:31]Because, you know, if you're relying on this to pay your rent next month, you haven't done the work to understand what Bitcoin is. That that's not what this is. It's something that it's like farmland to me. And you don't buy farmland and try to flip it in a week from now. Even though you could with Bitcoin, it's has the same kind of characteristics and properties as something like farmland. And so that's how it should be treated. But it does take a lot of time to get there, I think. and you know the lessons that we've learned through the through the shitcoins. It's crazy to me when I think about this all the thing all the YouTube videos I've watched, all the podcasts I've listened to, all the things I've done, if I just would have bought Bitcoin only and I would have put it into a cold card with a passphrase and put those in a couple different locations, I would have way more than I have otherwise. But instead, I tried to accelerate things. I tried to take a shortcut. And that's really what fiat is to me. It's it's people trying to get take shortcuts because that's how the world works, right? That's how the fiat system works.

[00:13:28]But if I just would have bought Bitcoin and did a very simple setup and just did nothing else, I would be miles ahead of the cryptos, the the lending against the trying to time going up and down and wasted so much time and energy doing that too. It's just so simple but so difficult, too.

[00:13:45]>> Yeah. And again, the analogy of karate is perfect because a lot of these moves are simple, too. like you know how it's pretty easy to just like throw a punch, but there's a lot into that and you have to show up to the dojo and you got to practice your kadas to really understand and to move through the through the belt system as well. And and it's the same thing with Bitcoin. You think Bitcoin's simple, that's because you're a yellow belt, a white belt, and you're uh at the top of Mount Stupid, as Rajot said. And um you know, you just you don't know what you don't know. And there's so much to learn here with Bitcoin. There's so much to know and um what's nice about it once you get through the other side is that you're on the side of truth with Bitcoin. And so like you you see the push back, you see the people calling it a Ponzi saying there's no intrinsic value and it honestly starts like you might even start being the brick wall that they're yelling at because you just start to phase it out. It starts to like not be relevant anymore. you just you're just like, well, you're just wrong.

[00:14:50]Like, you're just wrong about these things. It's so obvious you haven't studied. Um, you're right that it's volatile in the short term. Like, that's what you have over this asset. Like, that's what you know. Like, okay. And we all accept that. We all know that and we all position accordingly to best suit our life and and to hopefully have more sats at the end of the month than less, right? And, you know, uh that's really just it, right? It's It's not that hard.

[00:15:19]And it's actually like I I don't know.

[00:15:20]I've been going through this thing lately where I'm just like I'm almost tired of talking about Bitcoin because it's just so obvious. Like it's just seems like it's just so obvious to me now that it's like >> so true.

[00:15:31]>> Okay. A lot of people don't get it. And I can try to help those people understand it more. And and that still is very fulfilling and worth doing, but there's certain times where I'm just like it's just so cut and dry. It's so clear that it just almost feels like I don't need to talk about this anymore.

[00:15:48]>> There is um um in Karate, it's probably not a daily routine, but there's a famous thing where someone has like bricks stacked on top of each other and they have to kind of punch through it.

[00:16:00]Like do you do you guys know what I'm talking about?

[00:16:03]>> The karate.

[00:16:05]>> Yeah. And so like when I look at that, I feel like I could never do that. Like my my hand would break. I would would hurt myself. And then I see people just like doing that. And maybe the analogy here is that the brick wall is kind of the fiat system. And you you don't think this will have a break. The network effect is too strong. The it it is just too dominant and too apparent for people to actually go through there and have like the sky behind the brick wall and see the light behind the brick wall. But I think it's possible and I think we we can we can jump through there. to make an analogy with karate in the brick wall.

[00:16:46]>> Robin, the other thing with that too is like I I would say the same thing. If you put a couple bricks in front of me right now, I wouldn't be able to do it.

[00:16:54]I know that because I I probably wouldn't have the strength. I probably wouldn't have the technique. My hand is too sensitive probably from being in the fre on the computer all day here like a nerd. But uh I guarantee you if I spent some time every day for the next six months or a year or two years, I guarantee you that I could break those bricks because I'd have more strength.

[00:17:16]I'd know the technique and my hand would be more hardened to smash those bricks.

[00:17:22]But it's the same thing is I I feel like Bitcoin people looking outside at Bitcoin, they think, "Oh, it's way too hard. I don't know what that what I'm doing. I don't understand it." And it's like, okay, well, you just got to do a couple, like I said, very simple things, but it takes time. It takes time to even know what those things are. It's not something you can learn in a 10-minute video and just be all good or somebody you can call and say, "Hey, put $100,000 into this." I mean, you could, but you're not really getting the true the the aspects of Bitcoin, the the real superpower of Bitcoin there. So, I I think that what you got to do in that case is just kind of understand that everybody's been through it, but it takes time. Proof of work. I It's It's one of those things. The core principles of Bitcoin is proof of work, but you you cannot shortcut anything. And uh I would actually like to try smashing some bricks right now.

[00:18:11]>> Is there anyone brought a really interesting question up? Uh where is it? Here it is. Um because it's actually a question I also got from from other people already. Why is the volatility if the supply is fixed? Why do we have such a huge volatility if Bitcoin is supposed to stable thing?

[00:18:32]Bitcoin is supposed to new digital uh gold is supposed to be this a very stable great conservative kind of thing to buy. It's it's an amazing question. I just want to uh push it to to you guys because I think it's an interesting topic to talk about.

[00:18:49]>> I think I think it's volatile because there are different players, people who have different in incentives. Uh some people want to be traders, some people want to be making quick money with Bitcoin, other people are using it as a wealthb buildinging uh foundation for their future. And for those people, the price doesn't really mean it doesn't really matter if it's volatile to them.

[00:19:10]If if the price goes down, then they're actually happy because they get to buy more. And I'm one of those people. I know that if the price were to go down, I'd be happy because it means that I can get more Bitcoin. Why why is that a negative to me? That's a that's only positive. And I know there are other people like that as well. There are people out there who don't quite understand it. They just want to trade it. They just want to gamble with it.

[00:19:31]They see it as a gamble, so they treat it as a gamble. And I mean that that's just it's like that for every market, right? Even houses, if people could day trade houses, I guarantee you that houses would be like going up and down 15% a day. So >> yeah, I think sorry tokenization.

[00:19:48]They'll try.

[00:19:50]>> They will try with tokenization. Yeah. I just wanted to add to that um to to just think about like those players and to just realize that everybody is dis the reason there's volatility is everybody is disagreeing with what this thing is worth right now or in the time frame that they're buying and selling it in.

[00:20:08]>> So there's that's what traders are doing. That's what they're doing as a job. there is saying I believe that this is going to go up or down by certain amounts within a certain time frame and I'm going to position myself to benefit from that move. So that's and it is acting as a trading instrument for that based on the characteristics and understanding of uh these other the other players that they're trading against of what that asset is. Um it's also like there is not there it's sort of what's interesting about Bitcoin is Bitcoin is 100% monetary premium and monetary premium is derived from the the sound principles of money and also the belief that something has those principles and Bitcoin does when you begin to understand it but what backs all that is belief so it is it's a hard thing to quantify whereas Like if you had natural gas, you're trading natural gas. You say, "Okay, well, what's the energy demand? What's the what's the is there's going to be a winter storm, there's going to be more electricity needed, which means there's more natural gas." Like, there's more things to try to quantify. And when you have all that information, the the price is less volatile because that information is known. Whereas with Bitcoin, it's the belief that this is going to be valuable in the future and is going to be a neutral monetary network. And that's very hard to quantify. So it's really just a mismatch which creates the volatility of every individual player in the market believing different things about Bitcoin >> which is the >> sorry sorry Robin I was just going to say this because I think it's very simple when you think of this. You said why is it still volatile when the supply is fixed?

[00:21:57]>> So when you're determining the price there's kind of two components to it.

[00:22:01]There's supply and there's demand. So you have one component there, the supply aspect of it that's not going to change.

[00:22:08]That's fixed.

[00:22:10]And so what's changing then is the demand for it. And that's kind of what Rajat and and Forest said, the demand changes. People see it as different things. Different people want it at different times, different time frames.

[00:22:21]So when the demand is changing, that's what makes it volatile, right? Because really simply, price is based on the supply and demand of an asset. If there's a lot of demand for something, the price is going to go up, assuming the supply stays the same. If there's very little demand for something, but the supply doesn't change, then the price is going to go down because there's less people who want to buy it.

[00:22:42]So, very simply, we have the supply part, the demand part fluctuates, but it's based on needs, timelines, all these different things. And I would say a misunderstanding what this asset is.

[00:22:52]That's a big part of the demand part.

[00:22:54]And I I just wanted to add because there's there's two main components why I think it's volatile because there's there will come a point where Bitcoin is barely volatile in purchasing power. The first point is nature is volatile, life is volatile and and things in general like fluctuate. It it's not normal for something to be stable. And you say, "Yeah, the euro might be stable, but it's only stable because we put prices on there." I've uh if if you if you go down to a local shop uh and look the the prices up the last I don't know 18 months they probably increase it two or three times. It's not it's not also uh stable in that regard. It's just stable because it's a little little bit more sticky. So if Bitcoin ever becomes or like when Bitcoin becomes a unit of a transaction, a unit of unit of account and people have to change the price on things, it will be a lot more stable quote unquote depending on of course in what you measure it in. Uh so that's the first thing. The second thing is it's very young. It's in the in the in the discovery mode. We are still in the very early innings of what Bitcoin uh is trying to do. If if Bitcoin is successful and when Bitcoin becomes successful, it has a potential totally addressable market of every single person on planet Earth. And now how many people actually understand Bitcoin? How many people are actually in Bitcoin? And so the volatility that we currently have is some is a sign of being early. And the interesting thing is this is actually a positive thing for you as an individual. If it's it's not if it's no longer volatile, crazy moves like doubling your money in two years wouldn't be possible. You would get 8% maybe 5% maybe 10% a year uh if it's high. you wouldn't get the 20 30 maybe 40% a year kagers and assets that have uh a natural natural volatility built in and not a mechanism that artificially makes it less volatile and more stiff is usually worse assets.

[00:25:06]If you think about even an airplane, like an airplane has those wings and they're also volatile and they need to be volatile. If they would be stiff, they would break in midair. It has to be volatile to be a stable good asset. And this is kind of the uh the point of volatility being actually a good thing for an asset for financial asset because it's gives reflexivity. It gives it um an an interest to to talk about. So yeah, that's that's the last point probably that I want to make is vol volatility brings interest and debates and haters and bulls and uh that's why there are so many people talking about Bitcoin. Uh some hate it, some love it. Um but the the point is everyone talks about it.

[00:25:54]>> Yeah. And just to give another perspective on this or like from a different angle is humans are humans and fiat are volatile, right? And so you guys have kind of mentioned this basically, right? alluded to it and explained it. Bitcoin isn't changing.

[00:26:08]You know, Bitcoin doesn't change. It's just Tik Tok next block every 10 minutes. So, when you you see like the mirror like the law of polarity where it's like you can't have good without evil. You can't have evil without good.

[00:26:17]You can't have left without right, up without down. And that's this contrast this mirror. That's like the stable coins for instance, will be pretty amazing because I I think it's going to teach a lot of people wallets and exchanges, but you're still going to have this contrast with the other side of the coin, which is Bitcoin, and you're still going to have your purchasing power melt away. So people are still going to see this this phenomena happen and while they're learning about the the digital currency realm I guess and because people don't like this perceived volatility. So they they think Bitcoin's volatile which you guys all just explained that it's not actually Bitcoin that's volatile but they're going to come into stable coins which is the volatile thing. And this we talked about feedback loops a few minutes ago where it's just it happens on such a long time frame that the average person doesn't understand it. So they don't see it. So they're going to learn the process and they're going to see their life being melted away in contrast to Bitcoin. And then the thing I think is important to talk about future forward is these the you know the panic of 1907 which was largely heralded as one of the big things to get to people you know for years they're trying to get the Federal Reserve the third Federal Reserve here in America. And these panics are what are just natural events in free markets and the people at the top don't like that. It's a way to just get power. Hey, I'm just going to get more power over people. And you know, a lot of people have heard the mayor Armchild Rothschild quote or or or this quote, which I'll share, which is largely attributed to Henry Kissinger, who is Secretary of State, I believe, with Richard Nixon. But from the numerous times I've looked, it's not actually, no one can actually verify it's his. Kind of would make sense that it's his, though. So, it's kind of weird that it's it's not, but um it's who controls the food supply controls the people. Who controls the energy can control whole continents, and who controls the money can control the world. And this is just the game they've known for millennia. uh literally millennia of hey I can control people through the money supply and and deceive people and and so this is this process going back to again the humans and fiat are volatile not Bitcoin and do the properties change have they changed and so moral of this whole story is that in a free market you still have ups and downs even on a Bitcoin standard you will still have ups and downs but they will be way less pronounced because the Federal Reserve or the central banks or the Kissingers of the world or the Roth child they come in and they use fear emotion right like you humans sell through emotion not logic logic does not work so you they come in times of fear and panic panic of 1907 you know whatever you know fill in your your chaotic event and then they sell you something sell you something a patriot act you know whatever it is to get control arrest it wrestle it away from the people and while the people's heightened emotions are there when's emotions go up intelligence goes down and so we have these simple ups and downs that will just like in in a in a Bitcoin standard world you will still have these ups and downs just typical logistics constraints like oh the truck didn't make it today to deliver some food so guess what the prices went up a sat you know everything across the board just went up a sat cuz the truck didn't show up but a a central planner looks at that and says oh my gosh that's an injustice we need to implement some type of subsidy some type of regulation some type of thing so these things don't happen and that's how we always get into this fiat you know, circus that we devolve into as society. So, you're going to have these little ups and downs over time, but they're going to be a fraction of what we deal with now. But it's okay. That's the free market doing its thing. Then it balances out. The truck comes the next day. Prices then come back into equilibri equilibrium. Then everything was five sats, a loaf of bread. Now it's four sats. It's back to four sats again.

[00:29:45]And so that's that's this world that we are are entering. And you're going to still have a little volatility because you look at like the the fires going on.

[00:29:52]The Spencer Pratt videos has been going, you know, like crazy, you know, going viral obviously, right? So there's a good thing if if every house, as George brought up before, if every house was just say a million sats, but all of a sudden a thousand of them in LA burned down, well, what happens? Now there's less supply on the market. So now they go up. So now builders are like, "Oh shoot, I want to build some houses because now I can get more sats. Now it's 1.1 million sats or or whatever it is to buy to build a house." And they're like, "Shoot, I'm going to do this." And then once that evens out and it goes back to a million, it's like, "Okay, a couple builders go back offline." and then things balance out again. But instead, you have the LA mayor, you know, some quack come in and they're going to be they're giving you regulation and they're doing this and these arbitrary arson and firefighter things where the government's constantly creating the problems and then we've got the solution. We're going to give you free things. We need to, you know, spray currency into the air. So anyway, this is this is these different lenses that you you know we all kind of mention which are so important because this is these are the classes. This is why you know the the title is so apppropo Bitcoin is a black belt of personal finance because you just don't learn this stuff in school. No one actually takes the time to learn these very simple basic things. They've got us in 202 and 303 classes that mean absolutely nothing and disounted flat cash flows and the things that most people never ever in a million years need to know.

[00:31:01]These are the simple things that the average person has to know so we don't make these mistakes over and over again.

[00:31:06]>> If if we if we kind of think back to like this is uh everything we've talked about so far is kind of supply demand, right? So kind of think about it through that lens for a second here. The truck not showing up with the chips, that's a lack of supply, right? that brings down the supply. So, the price goes up. When you think about it this way, we know the supply and that's what makes Bitcoin super interesting to me because in the fiat system, we don't know what the demand is going to be like. We also don't know what the supply is. So, it's like a a real guessing game to try to price anything, right? And it's funny, but it's it's like true. It's and it's crazy that we just kind of live in this insane world and we accept that as reality, but like in Bitcoin, we know what the supply is. That never changes, right? That never changes. It might go from 20.02 02 million to 21 million in the next 114 years. But really, it's not going to change that much. But the demand is going to change. And so, right now, let's just say that there's a 100,000 people in Bitcoin who understand Bitcoin. That's the demand. 100,000.

[00:32:02]So, when 5,000 of those people decide that they want to sell that, that's 5,000 less demand. That's 95,000 people now who want Bitcoin. It goes down.

[00:32:11]Price goes down. Less demand, same supply, price goes down. But when you extrapolate that out into millions and billions and all of a sudden those 5,000 people don't want Bitcoin anymore, nothing changes because the the pool is so much bigger. Now the people who want Bitcoin, that number of of people has grown significantly. And so these these day-to-day changes, week changes, they don't really impact the price at that point, the fiat price of Bitcoin because there's just so much more demand. But basically what we've what Brandon just talked about there was that this uh it's still so very small that any changes in demand actually have a big impact on the price. Whereas as that demand of people who want Bitcoin goes up and up and up, even if a couple people decide they don't want it, it is not going to change, right? It's it's kind of a one-way street going up overall. And so we are going to eventually get less volatile, but it's all just kind of goes back to supply and demand. And it's just a really easy way to think about the world through that lens. And it makes way more sense when you're on a Bitcoin standard because the supply doesn't change there. So, it's a lot easier to price things.

[00:33:20]Yeah, it's a it's a it's a fascinating like if if you think about the the volatility of of of Bitcoin being a feature for early ones that I think that's always uh the thing I come back to like you should see it as a as a strength thing. Sure. You said in the beginning uh that it's now a lot better than 12 months ago.

[00:33:43]>> Yeah.

[00:33:43]>> And what when did we had the alltime high? like 6 months ago, 7 months ago. I don't even like roughly October. It was It was like uh like seven six months ago, something like that. And >> Robin, I don't know if it's better, but there's more people there's more demand.

[00:33:58]>> Yeah. Like there's more people that understand it because the people that got out of Bitcoin in in the last six months because the price went down, they didn't really fully understand it.

[00:34:11]>> Agree.

[00:34:12]the people that completely went out. And so we definitely had new people joining in. And so if you just think about Bitcoin as a network, as a financial uh network, there are more people now coming in. There are more people now in the Bitcoin. It's more decentralized.

[00:34:28]It's uh more it's more resilient. It it it it added another year, another month, another day on the network where it showed how strong it is.

[00:34:41]And then the price went down 50%. I I mentioned that in the in the recent podcast I I I posted with with Peter Dunworth where if you love a toast oven and the toaster oven is something like you you really you really like it and you wanted to buy it and now the toaster oven goes down 50% in price and they added a new feature to it and it's just like better than the previous one and you're like yeah now I'm like I kind of I'm kind of skeptical now like why should I buy it? Like it just went down in price. you're not you're not doing that. Like if if something if something that you love it goes down in price, you buy it more, not less. And so I I don't get the whole people loving Bitcoin when it goes up and hating Bitcoin when it goes down. I'm actually curious if you have the because you all also have YouTube, there's a feature where it shows when you like a person's uh comments a lot. Like it's a purple thing that shows up next to their name. if you like uh a person's comments a lot. I have one or two guys that I liked a lot uh last year. Now they're hating on Bitcoin and I'm like interesting. So they left a lot of great comments on Bitcoin content last year when it was ripping and was going up and now I mean it's just like two or three people but now they're actually negative on Bitcoin and they flipped and they're like this doesn't make sense. This is bad. This is bad. And I'm like oh like why? Like what has changed in Bitcoin fundamentally?

[00:36:07]Yes, the price has gone down. So has the volatility. We had we had that volatility in Bitcoin price since since Bitcoin like if you don't like that about Bitcoin like you haven't not done your homework whatsoever. Like like you haven't even started there because I think price volatility is something that everyone knows about Bitcoin. Even if you have no clue about Bitcoin, everyone hears about this crazy pricing. So that's just interesting for me why people love it when it goes up and hate it when it goes down.

[00:36:38]>> The funniest thing to me, the funny thing to me is that people say um Bitcoin is volatile, but gold isn't and gold is extremely volatile. Like if you've seen it the last few days, >> even even the bond market, Raj, yeah, I mean the bond market and gold the last couple years. Yeah. Really volatile.

[00:36:54]>> Everything's volatile. And people try to say that Bitcoin's too volatile for me to hold, but I mean it's volatile just like everything else, but it's the returns are much higher because it's more volatile. It has more upside.

[00:37:07]Whereas, let's say, for example, with the stock market, it's consistently giving you 10%. But I mean, it's volatile, but it's not as volatile. But again, it are you okay with getting inferior returns just because you're you don't want to deal with volatility? It's your feelings at the end of the day.

[00:37:25]Like when you when you understand the fundamentals, you're you're going based on logic. When you're just going based on volatility and you're thinking, "Oh, I think it might go down." You're just going based on your feelings and you're using your emotions. Anytime I've made an emotional investing decision, I've always ended up regretting it.

[00:37:42]>> I think it's And someone just said here too, I love it. Like in the gaming world, you call them casuals. Yeah. And that's and so that's that's exactly what my answer is going to be. Just summer soldiers. You know, Thomas Payne wrote about this, you know, in common sense, you know, 250 years ago. And this is just some people are there for the some people are there for number go up and just like what's in it for me and they haven't graduated to that next level.

[00:38:04]They haven't seen maybe the wizard behind the curtain and they're very shallow surface level with it. Uh, and then there's revolutionaries. There's the people are like, "No, no, I'm good.

[00:38:13]We're done here and we're all going to hang separately or we're going to hang together." And they've kind of seen past that curtain. And that's people that have probably done the work. They put the work in. They've seen behind the curtain and they've they put their hours in. Like we said earlier, they've gone through the gauntlet, the fatal funnel.

[00:38:27]They've had the the nicks, the bruises, the scrapes, the blood, sweat, and tears. And that's that's the difference.

[00:38:32]You know, that's that's really the only difference I see cuz like you guys just said, I mean, Bitcoin hasn't changed.

[00:38:36]You know, number one has a property has changed. I you know, I talked to Parker Lewis about like half our podcast like a couple months ago and he we just kind of kept coming back to this where it was like nothing has changed. Zero has changed. So like you can ignore reality all you want. Does not matter. Right?

[00:38:50]the old iron ran quote, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. Like it's it is what it is. I mean, just do the homework and and that has not changed until or unless his thing was every time you start an argument with Bitcoin, you have to that you have to come back to the that first principle of has anything changed? Okay, if it hasn't, then you know everything flows from there every single time. It does not matter. And so to me, it's just summer soldiers, you know, and I forget exactly how we phrase it, but it's the the winter winter soldiers and and summer patriots, I think, or something like that. And it's which one are you?

[00:39:20]Are you a wartime general? You know, are you here for the actual revolution? Are you here to change society? Or are you just here for yourself and you is the number go up? And to your point, Robin, guys are here for Oh, I'm I'm off the like we said earlier, I'm off to the AI.

[00:39:34]I'm AI YouTuber now when I was just a big NFT YouTuber. It's like, man, you've completely missed the boat, you know, like you were out in left field. And that's that's a lot of people. That's most people, you know, and that's most people. And that's why this this fight is is so hard. you're just down in the mud slinging it out and and most people are just like nah they the country the the was there's a guy a couple years ago and it was when they were you know a lot of the cancelling going on five years six years ago during co and all that and there was a this big football player and they were trying to cancel Chick-fil-A and this was the greatest response ever it's my response all the time and it doesn't always work because you kind of have to know the context but they were trying to cancel it and someone was like calling him out and he had like a video of him like that's what it was they had a video of him eating Chick-fil-A based like middle fingering everyone and be like f you people were whatever. His caption was chicken too tasty. And it's just like sorry like don't care. Don't you know too long didn't read. Don't care what you say. Like chicken too tasty. Like you, you know, you can scream and cry and [ __ ] and moan all you want. Don't don't care. So >> yeah, >> there we are, gentlemen.

[00:40:31]>> And the thing is too is the the there's some pretty powerful market participants that really love that there's emotional players in here. They love that because that they're taking advantage of your emotion. You cannot you probably if you're new to this, you should you should do the George Castanza. You should do the exact opposite of what your intuition is telling you to do, right? You should do the exact opposite of the way you feel. When you feel when those commenters on Robin's video are now talking trash about Bitcoin, they should be buying it. And when they were talking positively about it, >> maybe they should have been a little cautious, right? You know, that that's what I'm going to say there. Um, yeah, just do the opposite of what you feel.

[00:41:16]>> George Castanza, I mean, frick, there there's there's a lot to get into here.

[00:41:21]I mean, when we're thinking about gold and bonds being volatile, it's the same kind of thing. It's like, has gold changed?

[00:41:29]Has bonds changed? Or maybe, maybe maybe.

[00:41:34]Fiat world is crazy. Again, going back to what I was just saying there, the supply, we don't know what the supply is. We got this thing going everywhere.

[00:41:41]Is there uh 100 trillion? Is there 900 trillion? Is Nobody knows the supply.

[00:41:46]So, how can you fairly value anything?

[00:41:48]Gold isn't volatile. Bitcoin isn't volatile. Bonds aren't volatile. Fiat and people's emotions are volatile.

[00:41:54]That's what it is, right? And I think I like your I like your toaster of an analogy, Robin, because when you think about it this way, too. I was kind of thinking through it myself. A lot of people out there, if you've if you have this like um let's say it's a Weieber a Weieber toaster oven and you've studied it and you know all the specs, you know what it heats at, you know what it cooks your favorite bagel at, you put in the time to understand that, you're like, "Okay, it's $100. Next day it's $50." If nothing changed, if they didn't remove any of those features, then you're happier than a pagan [ __ ] You're like, "Okay, I get 50% off." Just like Bitcoin, right? But there's also people out there who don't know what they want.

[00:42:30]They don't understand the difference between a Weber and a Sheber. So the Sheber, they're looking at the Weber, they're like, "A hundred bucks? Oh, that's a lot." They look at the Sheber and they're like, "She's five bucks. No brainer. Why would I pay $100 when I could just pay $5 for it?" And it's the same kind of thing. It's because they don't understand what they're buying.

[00:42:50]They don't understand what they want out of it. They don't understand the need for it in their personal situation. And so it looks different from everybody, but it all kind of goes back to the black belt and actually putting in the work to understand what you're buying it. And then if fiat goes crazy up or down, you're buying either way because you know what you're doing. You put in the work to understand that you have your black belt in Bitcoin. So >> one thing we haven't mentioned, one thing we haven't mentioned too much about Bitcoin is that it's just a really small market cap as well. It's very liquid. But if you thought I mean we've compared it against gold and bonds. If we look at those markets and if we think that they were the size of what Bitcoin is and they had the inflows and outflows that they have, >> they would probably be very volatile as well based on that. So there is just this thing about and we've sort of alluded to it and mentioned it but the fact that we're just in this stage with Bitcoin where it's 16 17 years old and it's young and it's small in market cap too and it doesn't take as much capital flowing in and out of it to affect the market in a volatile way. It's liquid.

[00:44:01]It's highly liquid. It's 247. It's arguably in some characteristics the most liquid market in the world. But yet there is thin spreads. There is the ability to if a lot of buying came in it would push up to this new chunk of sellers and that is volatility. That's US dollar denominated price volatility from just the size of the market alone and the fact that we are in the adoption cycle. like Bitcoin is not recognized as a store of value and it goes from uh collectible to store of value to medium of exchange to unit of account. We've got a long way to go to see Bitcoin actualized and I I think people still just see it as a collectible and it's sort of being pitched as a store of value, but people don't buy that still.

[00:44:49]They don't believe it and so it's more of a collectible at this stage and it that just shows how early we are in the adoption cycle.

[00:44:58]This goes back to um Jorah. We were talking about this yesterday, right? You know, flipping the the chart upside down and that's because, you know, we always talk about when people grock Bitcoin, when do they get it, what price? And it's really just a saturation point. Uh going back to this, you know, this revolution that's happening, this peaceful revolution, and what what number of Bitcoiners do we need to get to? And it's not it's only a couple percent. It's not many because hyperinflation comes from a loss of confidence of the currency. It's not like, oh, we printed too much. We could print another quadrillion dollars in the United States and if people believe it still then it doesn't matter like it'll just keep going to what's her name I don't know if it was uh Stephanie Kelton that wrote the MMT book I'm pretty sure um you know to to her point like yeah if people believe it then you you could go add infinitum like into infinity like you could just keep going if people believe the lie but at some point someone questions it someone enough people question is probably the better way to say it and you have that saturation point of the the marbles on the piece of paper or the paper towel and keep dripping the water and what how many drips does it take for the marbles to finally fall through and that's it.

[00:46:00]So the dollar USD to dollar conversion where it just goes to zero like George brought it up yesterday and it's literally down 100% 17 years. The dollar is to Bitcoin down 100% lost all its value. Every single every single piece of value that the dollar had against Bitcoin is gone in the last 17 years and that's going to continue happening. The next 17 years will be the same exact story. If you have held your dollars against and had no Bitcoin or short Bitcoin, you lost another 100% again.

[00:46:25]You will just keep losing over and over and over again. And at some point it's just when does the saturation point to what force is saying that gradually and suddenly you know throwing up Parker Lewis again uh now twice in the show but his book gradually and suddenly right we get to a point where there's a couple percent of the population whatever it is who have gone on to the network they've left the dollar we have wars going on because people are leaving the dollar for decades now right Gaddafi Saddam Hussein it's because they're leaving the network you can't you can't people because no one in the world would ever ever on their free will choose to use the dollar or currency that stole from them. Any fiat currency, no one would choose that. No human, no sane human being would choose that. And so you have capital controls in the United States, which are the $600 and under now they've been trying to do the last couple years.

[00:47:08]Or you go to the bank and you try to take out 10,000, they're questioning you on what's going on. Those are capital controls, you know, inside like, hey, you better not leave our network cuz then we lose value. And so that's that's the them telling you right there or the wars externally and fighting all over the place because they're trying to keep people in the dollar network. And again, it just it shows you right there. People have already made their choice. They've already flown to Bitcoin and that will just keep increasing as education increases. People keep waking up and they realize that and then hyperinflation happens with only a couple percent of people. Probably it's somewhere around there because they've left the network and the dollar starts quickly losing value even faster because the network is losing its participants and it starts going the other direction where Bitcoin keeps gaining up into the right network effect. The dollar keeps losing value or losing its network effect over time. And so again, this is the thing. I fought with Mike Green about this the other day. There's so many people that think that it's just going to go forever. Like it's just going to like keep happening like we're we're just like what what we live today is just going to happen infinitely into the future. That's just not how life works. And we've gone through hundreds hundreds of thousands of different fiat currencies all gone to zero in human history. But we've gone through thousands of them. Many world reserve currencies. And somehow again we make this mistake of thinking this is going to happen forever to what today is hap you know. No, we all die someday. All currencies die, life changes. It's entropy. And that's the thing that Bitcoin is basically routing around and fighting against and is the the the least entropic of of all things out there. So that's that's the battle we're in.

[00:48:35]>> I think what also Park Lewis once uh told me in a podcast was because I asked him the question like what does this whole suddenly moment trigger like when are we getting to this like hyperbolic moment? And I liked his answer because he mentioned that we have Argentina as an example, how a currency dies and they just make a new one up. A currency dies, they just make a new one up. And then there other countries that give up on making a new currency and they just plug into a bigger network like the US dollar, like other bigger fiat currencies. And so you kind of have this feeling that this play just keeps on playing over and over again. But what happens once one of the big ones, one of the chief free nations like a US dollar, uh, euro, a yen, one of those currencies hyperinflate. And this is kind of where I'm thinking it's a breaking point of the fiat system when one of the very big currencies all of a sudden no longer uh work and there's no higher bigger better fiat currencies that they can plug into in the system. That's I think for me personally the the breaking point of fear because if if the currency of some small country that we don't even know a currency that we don't really care of breaks it nobody cares in the bigger global financial system but if the US dollar or the euro the yen one of the big ones if they break and they have a hyper in in inflating um rate of inflation Then we move to uh do a a state where people are actually in shock and pain and actually are afraid of what's what's there to come.

[00:50:27]>> Yeah. Now there's this push towards stable coins and stable coins are just backed by US bonds. They're no different. there's there's just a digital uh crypto rail wrapper of US dollars and they hope to export US dollar debt to other countries with worse currencies.

[00:50:46]Um and you know even the term stable coins is sort of like a 1984 term like you know like uh war is peace right it's like what what's stable about this currency that is collapsed over its entire existence there's nothing stable about its purchasing power um maybe the Patriot Act or the Inflation Reduction Act.

[00:51:08]>> It's exa Yeah, exactly. It's this double speak. It's the exact opposite of what it is. And it's it's gaslighting and it's influencing and it's it's an attempt to trick more people into holding this garbage for longer so that they can extract more value out of you by holding it. And how long can that last for? like, you know, it takes us like waking up and and breaking out of the fiat cult, but then we have kids and we we say, "You know what? You're not even getting into the fiat cult. I'm explaining to you the problems. You're you're ch when you do chores, I'm paying you in sats. You can convert those back and forth to buy whatever you want, but you're getting paid in SATs. You're understanding Bitcoin." And then you know these people these these people like us we end up starting to make laws making changes having demands that are Bitcoin related and everything shifts. I mean this is just the way things change over time.

[00:52:04]Like it takes a long time but we can't we can't keep having this failure of currency happen that we've seen forever.

[00:52:12]And Bitcoin is the ultimate solution to this problem that has plagued and been part of the downfall of almost all historical great empires and civilizations.

[00:52:25]Yep. Think about it this way too because uh Forest I like what you said there because Bitcoin will eventually be worth a substantial amount we believe anyways economically and with economic power comes influence. And I always think back to like Yellowstone where if you think about like the ranchers and the farmers out there and what they had to do uh in terms of like once they actually once their land and their net worth was sufficient enough, they started to maybe not pay politicians but like be more active in politics because otherwise these dweebs would tell them that they're, you know, they got to tax their cow farts or [ __ ] like that. Like so you have the it only lasts for so long though until somebody with economic power comes in and says, "Hey, you know, we're going to we're going to do things our way because we're the ones who have the economic power here." But it's not something that happens over 10 years or 20 years or even 30 years. Like it's it's a very long drawn out system, but eventually it's like nature. You can't really fight nature. You can fight it for a while. You can cheat it for a while, but eventually it always comes back to nature. And that's really what I see playing out with Bitcoin. And unfortunately, we have to be the ones who kind of go through this transa this transition. I don't know if I'd say at the forefront of it, but kind of considering how many people are understand Bitcoin or talking about Bitcoin only stuff. Not NFTTS, not gambling, not uh AI [ __ ] It's Bitcoin.

[00:53:49]It's sell money. It's not a real sexy topic, but it's the most important thing I think we can be talking about. So, I mean, with that, it's like you got to have some patience. You got to lower your expectations. you got to change your your time zone or your time preference that you're going in and it's going to play out because it it has to.

[00:54:06]It's it's not really our opinion here.

[00:54:08]It's just the way that things go.

[00:54:11]>> Yeah. And you mentioned it, you know, it's unfortunate kind of the the position we're in, but also we're kind of fortunate because again, we're at the we're at the early stage of this, which means we can acquire a lot more. I do believe that um the world a sort of globally the standard is going to increase as we as we adopt more Bitcoin and and Bitcoin becomes what backs things like what you know like STRC is basically like a bondlike equity instrument that is backed by Bitcoin.

[00:54:40]It's not Bitcoin, but it's creating this sort of ability for people to get some value, some extraction of the value of Bitcoin that MSTR is seeing the full value gain from. And so, like, Bitcoin is going to sort of slowly integrate and become what backs everything. And then it's just like, well, why do I even have this intermediary? Why do I have something that isn't Bitcoin at this point? And that's what people will eventually wake up to. And, uh, life will be better for it. Um, and you know, we'll probably not I mean, maybe we'll be alive, maybe not. Who knows when, you know, uh, fully Bitcoin backed, but >> um, we we have the opportunity here to live through the relative early adoption of this monumental historically changing asset.

[00:55:29]And we can capitalize on that. We can take advantage of that.

[00:55:34]>> Isn't that freaking awesome? Like, isn't it like so cool that we live through I personally think Bitcoin plus AI is the biggest upgrade to humanity ever? Like those two things together is is just huge. And we live we just happen to live in the very time where those two things just got started. I I I sometimes look back I'm like that is freaky. Like that's really cool.

[00:56:02]It it kind of had to happen at the same time though because without the internet being a certain speed and and bandwidth and capacity, Bitcoin couldn't have worked. And so we're kind of at the point now where it's even better and we can do things like AI. But yeah, I saw a comment in the chat saying we can be patient. we have to get people out of the fiat system, which I I actually agree with because one of the things that scares me most in Bitcoin is how comfortable people are. Even though they're struggling like big time financially, they're just like, "Okay, well, I got my cell phone, I got my Netflix, I got my sports, you know, who really cares, right?" Even though, you know, I would say we're much less free than we were hundred years ago. We have more technology. We have more distractions. People are people just don't really care. It's like, you know, we talked about this yesterday, I think, but like Brandon was talking about UBI and how it's going to be so bad, but it's like what's the alternative? Like people starving and dying on the streets. Like I I don't know what the the best play forward here is. It's like in a best case scenario, everybody kind of figures this out and we just ditch that system. But I don't think that's a I don't think that's reality.

[00:57:12]>> So I don't know. It's something I >> will always be among you.

[00:57:16]>> What's that?

[00:57:16]>> The poor will always be among you.

[00:57:18]>> I know.

[00:57:19]>> That's just, you know, it's a fact of life. I mean, it sucks because none of us want that. That's why we're here. I mean, like again, we we've we talked about this before, like all of us here, everyone in the chat, everyone who shows up to Bitcoin content in general right now, whether you're producing it, creating it, writing it, you know, streaming, you're in the chat. You clearly care. You know, like that's you, especially in the bare markets. But and and this is why I was saying this earlier, too. We only need a couple percent of people to wake up. it this is not because most people will never wake up. The poor will always be among you.

[00:57:46]The weak, the blind, the lame, the sick, the suffering, like that's always going to be the case. But I I do believe that is our our mission. You know, God gave us the ability to come talk about these things and the the passion inside of our hearts, the fire inside of us to come do those things. And everyone's called to do different stuff. And um and so it's just waking up that couple percent that need to hear, the eyes to hear or the ears to hear and the to see. And and things change rapidly change because it's not it's not going to be 50% of people look look at the fiat system now, right? We've talked about this, right?

[00:58:13]It's happened a thousand times and it's that humans, we keep going falling into the same trap over and over because most people don't learn. They don't know the system they exist in right now. So, it's just this is something where you need a couple percent. We have it. But I I do believe it's going to happen in the next like decade. Maybe maybe two max, but it just science progresses one funeral at a time. But this this is changing quickly.

[00:58:33]I And we had the first baby boomers turn 70. I think like 10 years ago, you know, I I I believe the f Yeah, the first one.

[00:58:39]So over the next 10 to 20 years it's it's which is which is suddenly and it's going to happen very quickly where like Robin just mentioned AI mixed with Bitcoin what's happening people are scared right now you mentioned UBI right Jorah I mean all these things are happening people are going to be looking for solutions more and more and more now and they're going to find stuff like this they're going to find the books you know someone in the chat saying they they wrote a book and there's all these you know there's going to be more of this content more of this people are searching for these things and this is why this is so important because they people want answers they Most people h humans are smart overall. We're made in God's image. We we we've been desensitized to many things. Fiat has desensitized us and to a lot of stuff going on, whether it's through illegal or legal drugs or the commercialization of things like you guys just mentioned, all these things that have made us just kind of distracted, but we're going to figure it out and and it's going to happen quickly because like you just you guys mentioned, I think it was four or somebody. The young kids, they're not even going to know. They're not even going to know the old system, you know?

[00:59:34]So like and like my oldest kids, we have we have uh four right now and we have the oldest one's nine and they don't they know the difference between the systems like they'll never be in that old system. So call it another 10 years, 15 years max and they're like real contributing members to society potentially families. It's not long.

[00:59:50]It's not long and the the world just shifts completely.

[00:59:54]I think too with that, Robin, you kind of mentioned how fortunate we are right now and I agree with you and it's one of those things we we also I think we've talked about this analogy before too, but it's like when you consider going you consider your ancestors here and Robin it's a little bit different for you because your ancestors stayed over there but ours they they made the journey across the ocean right and it's kind of easy to think about but if you actually put yourself in their shoes how difficult that would have been to go to a different spot and kind of uproot everything that you've ever known and take a risk because the first couple boats coming over, they weren't sure what it was going to be like over here.

[01:00:31]They had no idea, right? They didn't have like a they didn't have somebody in in uh North America as we know it now on Zoom saying, "Here you go. Take a look around like a realtor." It's like they just kind of hopped in the boat and and took the risk. But they were the ones who were rewarded the most because they took that risk. And that's kind of how I see Bitcoiners right now today is nothing's guaranteed. We we haven't we haven't had it easy. In fact, it's been very difficult from uh the ups and downs of Bitcoin to how much [ __ ] we've taken from our friends and family, the government, the control systems, all these things, bank accounts being frozen. It hasn't been easy. But we we're going into this with a blindfold on, expecting, hoping that on the other side of that ocean is better land, better opportunity for us. And we're going to be there first. We are here first. And so the ones that come after, they've already kind of seen what's going on here. And I wouldn't even consider myself somebody who was on one of the first boats.

[01:01:29]They took a lot of [ __ ] They had it way worse than us. We kind of now, we know now. and people who are here getting in in 2024, 2025, 2026, they know that people are living over there now that, you know, communication has made its way back there that that uh Wall Street's here, that countries are starting to mine it. Like, it's not going anywhere now. So, it's much more safer to hop on that boat knowing what's on the other side of this. But the ones who were here earlier, the ones who were in the first boat, think about how much their lives have changed financially. buying Bitcoin for $1 and selling it for $100,000 wasn't easy. It was very risky, but they got paid. They they they got the reward for the risk that they took. And I I just think that that's such a good analogy just because of Bitcoin land scarcity, um uncertainty, and risk and reward. It's just how I think about it.

[01:02:19]>> I love that. like the the early adopters also because it's >> I it's it might be a hard topic change but I think about that a lot how the Bitcoin community also changes because the people now that come into Bitcoin are very different kind of people than the people came into 2012 in Bitcoin just made me think when when you were talking because if you came into Bitcoin with full force in 201 let's say 14 and you put most of your money into Bitcoin, you were kind of a lunatic like like you you you had to be a little bit of a freak. Yeah. Like just to just to buy like like a 100 bucks of Bitcoin.

[01:03:01]Yeah. Like that's that's that's that that wouldn't count as a lunatic. But if you would have gone all in to Bitcoin in like 2012, 134 where there are so many unanswered questions. Think about all the amazing things that came afterwards like the block size war. We've we've figured out how resilient Bitcoin is. Um uh like all the different kind of nation states coming in, the the companies coming in, the individuals coming in, the regulatory question because back then it was still a question like how will the regulatory framework look at it? Is it actually um safe from being banned? Is is a is a ban from a nation still possible? I I don't think this question was cleared up in 2012. I I don't I I don't I don't think it was a clear answer to that question. So like if you came in that early, you came into a country where you saw like, oh, there's a chair and there's nothing else like and and now you come in a country where there like there streets and there are houses and there's lights and there's electricity already.

[01:04:04]>> Um and it's a whole like it's way more convenient now to be a Bitcoiner.

[01:04:08]There's a lot of like you have a lot of um soldiers u walking next to you on the front line of this this Bitcoin revolution. You're not alone. You have tons of tons of podcasts. You have tons of tons of books. You have people maybe even like in your real life that you know that actually have Bitcoin and you just never talked about with him about Bitcoin. And so like you now are in a world where Bitcoin is already kind of in the mainstream.

[01:04:41]You see it on CMC. You see it everywhere. And so if you're in that world, you bring in a lot of different people because now going all into Bitcoin is still a bold move. Like don't get me wrong, like just putting all your money right now and go going all in Bitcoin, it's still a very bold move.

[01:04:59]But it's a different level of boldness uh which you have you wouldn't need to do uh 10 years 15 years ago. So I'm wondering how the Bitcoin community actually might change in the next like five four three years because you no longer have to be that bold as 10 years ago to come in the community.

[01:05:23]If if you think about it this way too, it's like when when the the Bitcoiners who were here in 2012, 2013, they showed up and like you said, they saw a chair, but it was it was the soil. Can we grow things here? Can we build on this land?

[01:05:36]Where's the where's the water? And then 10 or 20 or 30 years later, other people showed up and they're fighting over what type of material they should make the roads out of and what and what kind of paint they should use on the buildings.

[01:05:50]And that's kind of where we are right now where we're fighting over these these things, but the foundation's been built already, I think. And it's more certain that we can have life here on this planet. And I think that that's with with great reis uh with great risk comes great reward. And I think that that's kind of what we're seeing out right now. So, I agree that it's it's a different lens when you first show up in Bitcoin. Just like stepping onto new land, it's the exact same thing. I think >> I have here one question. I think you brought it up to me.

[01:06:20]um that I want to highlight maybe for for the last part of the the podcast the personal finance kind of a a black belt that we can get. It's a question about line of credit, Bitcoin loans, uh what are you going to have experience borrowing against your Bitcoin? There's a lot of different options which is also uh to the previous point that we just made. It's amazing that we continue to have more and more options in the Bitcoin ecosystem. Think about what you could have done financially with your Bitcoin 10 years ago. Like nothing. The banks didn't see it. There was no lending or borrowing uh platforms, not as a lot of different options. What are you guys thinking about uh line of credit, Bitcoin loans, using a Bitcoin as a collateral and as asset?

[01:07:08]>> Well, there's kind of multiple reasons why somebody might want to do that. Um, personally, I do have a a Bitcoin backed loan with Letin. It's relatively small and there's sort of like all of these kind of things you need to think of when you do something like this. Like you need to think of what's the actual position size, how much collateral have I put up, am I over collateralized because there's a margin call capability with an assetbacked loan. Is it what percentage of my entire stack is it? Why am I doing this? Is it just for consumption? because then if it's for consumption, you're just kind of hoping that the Bitcoin itself out appreciates the cost of capital, which has proven to work in the long term, but then there's sort of term durations you have to consider for rolling these things or to refinance and all of that. So, there's tons to consider. So, it's really hard to sort of just give general sort of information here about um doing that.

[01:08:00]But um what I'll say is you have the ability to do that now. And within like the within one year I think letin went from I think 12.9% non-rehypothecated um collateral loan cost.

[01:08:17]>> I think it was like I think it was like 13.4%.

[01:08:19]>> Yeah. Okay. So 13.4 and now now it's what like 11%. Right.

[01:08:24]>> 11.5.

[01:08:25]>> So it's come down. So what I'm what I'm trying to paint the picture of is that >> these are rapidly developing markets and there's a whole other risk factor of custodianship too that I didn't even mention. But um it's a pretty simple innovation to lower the cost of capital as these things become more uh attractive and more um usable. But there's going to be further innovations in this space as well. So, the longer you can wait, in my opinion, to do something like this, to use your Bitcoin, because you have to think of like taking on a Bitcoin back loan is extracting some of the fiat value out of it. You're just doing it in this wrapper that might be tax efficient and, you know, has all these other um slightly complicated aspects of it, but it's going to be easier and better and to do this in the future. So the longer you can wait in my opinion >> the better off you'll be doing this. Um but you can do this now but it's just understand each one of those risk factors.

[01:09:31]>> Yep.

[01:09:32]>> Interesting.

[01:09:32]>> I I just brought it up. Yeah. Go ahead.

[01:09:36]>> Just the one thing that um Forest mentioned there which I think is very important is like thinking about it. You also kind of got to figure out your your non-KYC stack and your KYC stack. And it's kind of I agree with Forest that I'm just not there yet. I think the longer you can wait before you need to use a loan against your Bitcoin, the better off you're going to be because rates are going to come down. Um, and as the price of Bitcoin goes up in fiat terms, you're going to have to put up less of your Bitcoin as collateral. And so, as Bitcoiners here, obviously, we want to maintain possession and ownership of our private keys. And so when you have to give it over to the bank, you know, at this point, if I had to take a loan against my Bitcoin, it might be a substantial amount of my stack and that's a huge risk to me.

[01:10:20]Whereas if I can wait five or 10 years from now, if I have to put up 50% of my stack now to get the loan I want, maybe in 10 years I have to put up 5%. And that's much easier for me to stomach given 5% of my stack, the keys to the bank, versus 50% of my stack. So the longer you wait, but now you can kind of take advantage of this time where you can organize your Bitcoin KYC, non KYC, keep your non KYC away from the lending part and just really start to structure and prepare for that time in the future.

[01:10:51]I I agree with Forest. I don't think we're there yet, but there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Bitcoin is going to be it is pristine collateral.

[01:10:59]It's just not really recognized by the market as as that yet.

[01:11:04]It's a time of Bitcoin where I mean it's different for people like if you are now six or seven years old you might look at my answer and saying like like I have a different life but if you're anywhere near your working time and you you have in your prime time this is the time where you put your head down and work as hard as possible to get as many sets as possible and don't play with them and Don't uh lend them out and don't borrow against them and don't give up your control over your private keys because if you do you might lose them. If you do you might have bad consequences. you have to pay high rates because I do think there will come a point where you have very attractive very low rates of Bitcoin backed uh credit where you might be in a position to use one two 3% of your stack to pay a for a whole year of your uh expenses just with with that and you might not even need to sell them. I mean, at that point, it might also be an worthwhile conversation to have if selling might just be a more uh emotionally less disturbing uh uh method of of of dealing with things.

[01:12:27]>> There's also like there's a lot of innovation happening in this space too.

[01:12:30]So like um I think recently it was in the states you could use your Bitcoin as uh an asset to be able to get a down payment for buying a home. So it wasn't directly like borrowing against it, but it was sort of saying, hey, this this asset I have is valuable and I can borrow against it in this real estate structure and there's no margin call with that and the interest rate would be tied to what you pay with a for a mortgage. And so it's like these kind of things become more acceptable and and the the infrastructure gets built out for it. that might even make sense for somebody in um as it develops too. So it might not look like what we're looking at today where there's these uh sort of neoinancial groups that are crypto adjacent or cryptonative that are doing this, but it's going to just look it's going to be tied into what we already have existing and and so much more.

[01:13:30]>> What do you think? I know you're kind of you got your microphone muted because you're coughing, but what's uh what's your thoughts on this?

[01:13:38]I I feel like so we're uh the with the loans uh just going back to that I I think that taking the loans is probably a really smart decision because I mean you're not selling your Bitcoin. Your goal is to just have as much Bitcoin for as long as possible cuz I mean if you sell your Bitcoin, you're giving away your upside potential.

[01:13:56]>> Mhm.

[01:13:57]>> Right. That that's the key that I I and and some actually something I wanted to mention. Um, I I do a lot of one-on-one calls with people and I've noticed that a lot of the people who have almost like a poor mindset, the first thing they ask me is when do I sell my Bitcoin?

[01:14:11]>> Yeah.

[01:14:12]>> But the people who are wealthy, they they don't think of it that way. They think, I need to keep this Bitcoin for as long as possible. And that's what fiat has kind of gotten us to, right?

[01:14:22]Because fiat exists, we need to find ways to use fiat to our advantage. It can be printed out of thin air, so why not? I think on a Bitcoin standard when the world actually goes to Bitcoin, fiat currencies all die. At that point, loans won't be available. So, you can take advantage of it for now, but at some point that may not be the case anymore.

[01:14:43]So, what I would say is, uh, what you guys said is great. Um, don't do it right away. Don't don't do it right now.

[01:14:50]Make sure you have a significant stack before you start borrowing against your Bitcoin. Uh, if you borrow early, you're taking a lot of risk. you could potentially lose your entire stack and I don't think that's worth it.

[01:15:03]>> Yeah. I mean, you're taking you're definitely taking on risk and people have done really well with it. Like I I I've listened to an interview with the the guy from Leen, the the CEO, and he said there's people that have taken out loans and they literally just refinance it every year. They've never paid it off. They've never closed out their loan because the Bitcoin out appreciates it.

[01:15:22]And maybe they took that Bitcoin, the the fiat they got from it and bought more Bitcoin. So, it's a way of sort of leveraging and and all of that, but just um I think where people can get tripped up here is really not understanding it enough and just kind of saying, well, oh, well, it's tax advantaged or it's I can take some of the money out and um I can buy more things with it, right? It's just it's it's sort of like it it sort of seems like a thing that's like almost too good to be true. And if the and it is a good system and Rat is right that like >> it is a good idea. The math works out.

[01:15:59]The math checks out. But there's all these caveats of what is your term duration? How much extra Bitcoin do you have? How able are you to add collateral if Bitcoin drops down by a big amount?

[01:16:11]Are you able to come up with the fiat amount to pay the loan off? Like there's all these caveats that managing a loan um you should you should recognize if you're managing a loan um especially a secured loan like this and you could maybe look into nonsecured loans. People have access to a you know character-based loans um where there's nothing backing it and you have the ability to default on it and they're not going to take your Bitcoin. Um so there's a lot to think of with that.

[01:16:43]There's a lot of terms to understand about your debt and um you are ultimately putting your Bitcoin at risk in a couple of different ways. The margin call being one and the custodial situation of it also being one and all of that should be evaluated. That that's such a great point for us because you know I kind of think of everything through the lens of a farmer and it's the same kind of thing. It's like you you want to lend against you you almost want to use Bitcoin as like your last resort option, not not your first resort, right? And I think that's where people get this wrong. It's like just because you can take out a loan against your Bitcoin doesn't mean you should, right? Like Forest said, characterbased perfect. And I think of of of like a farmer where if he had to go to the bank and he needed some some money for something, whether it's a a new hot tub for his wife or a new quad for his kid, whatever it is, he the last thing that he wants to put up is his land, but maybe he loans against uh a semi or uh or the corn that he has in one of his bins. Maybe he uses those as collateral versus his land. And I I think the land is almost like the last case uh last case option for him to lend against. And it also really depends too on how much money you have coming in. What's what's your harvest looking like this year?

[01:17:58]Because if you're just using it to buy things versus invest in something, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And think about like an early farmer where he has just a little bit of land. He just started his operation and he's maybe using that land to put back into his farm to invest into more equipment so he can produce more and then buy more land. He's not using that, you know, half section of land to buy groceries next month. So, it really depends. But once he has a huge operation, then it just like, okay, well, I got enough. It doesn't really matter now. I don't want to sell this land, but this land is going to appreciate. I have enough money coming in. And I'm laughing, but it's just like, where are you in that stage?

[01:18:36]What's your what's your farm looking like right now? Is it a couple acres or is it a half section of land? Those are two different conversations to me.

[01:18:43]>> Yeah.

[01:18:46]>> Oh, are you drinking moonshine?

[01:18:48]>> I'm drinking moonshine every day.

[01:18:51]>> It's not a water bottle. It's moonshine.

[01:18:55]>> You can't even looks tasty though.

[01:19:00]>> What is that?

[01:19:03]Good job.

[01:19:04]>> One one thing one thing that um is really fascinating to me, so just along these lines is how more people in the real estate world haven't groin and how more Bitcoiners haven't grocked real estate. Um actually I I understand why Bitcoiners haven't grocked real estate quite, you know, quite as much because, you know, a lot of us tend to be like, "Hey, it's just Bitcoin. It's going to destroy everything else." And I understand that obviously, but especially real estate people not getting Bitcoin. And where I'm going with this, I think I've talked about this with Rajot before, you have this world where, you know, we talk about the kagger of Bitcoin being 30, 50, 80% a year or whatever or, you know, every year. Uh, and there's there's one way to have an infinite return and it's through real estate. You know, using other people's money, go raise money, buy a piece of property. Again, hard to find deals. There's a lot that comes in.

[01:19:53]That's why I left real estate mainly because there's city risk and municipality risk. These cities are going bankrupt, etc., etc. But there's a lot of big operators, a lot of big players. I know that, you know, Grant Cardone, some of these people have like dipped their toes in the water, so to speak, and uh and talked about it. But in just the true sense of uh whether it's these loans, you can loan to yourself, and then go buy real estate with it or whatever it might be, but go raise money from other people, and then have nothing in the property, go fix up the property, refinance it, put renters in there, and then pull all the cash out, pay off your investors, or pay yourself off. It's a Bitcoin loan. and repeat the cycle over and over and you're and then not only that then once you have the cash flow say it's the 100 bucks a door on the property you're putting that in Bitcoin every single month and this like double whammy triple whammy leverage of like zero money in the deal so you're infinite return and you keep leveraging all these it's wild I I if I had time and and and all kinds of you know if I just well if I had time uh then I would I would be doing this uh this is what I would be doing because that's what I was doing and uh just life is such that I I not doing it can't into it right now, but over the last few years, but I'm just stunned that more people haven't done this or grocked this in in the Bitcoin or the real estate world and in some Bitcoiners. I'm surprised people haven't kind of dipped into that world and said, "Hey, I can literally because you guys talked about paying off the loans, right?" And Forest talked about this. If it's for consumption, then yeah, I mean, it's you're going to have to be careful.

[01:21:14]You're kind of just banking on appreciation of Bitcoin and that's fine.

[01:21:17]It's going to go up over a long time horizon, but you have liquidation risk, all this. But in with real estate, you can have no money in the deal and the the tenants, the residents paying off the Bitcoin, the the loan you had, the investors loan, whatever it might be, and you were in it for nothing or or very little, and you keep acquiring real estate properties, you keep acquiring, you know, you you hold your Bitcoin, and you're acquiring more Bitcoin with the cash flow coming in each month from the residents. So, that to me is is very confusing. I I don't know why we haven't seen a bigger explosion in that. It just goes back into everything I think we're talking about of the the volatility, the perceived volatility scaring people off, uh people not doing their homework, etc., etc., etc. All the FUD which emanates from the top in my belief. A lot of it from nation states. Uh I I think a lot of the FUD we see really emanates from there. And um I guess that's why it just what an unbelievable strategy and just so few people uh doing it. It's wild. Would you would you do that over cuz one thing I've been seeing a lot lately is STRC makes more sense than real estate just because you don't have to deal with the tenants. You have a guaranteed return. You don't have to worry about the city risks, things like that.

[01:22:18]>> If if you were going to go down that and you don't need the time either, Brandon, like that's that's your main holdback right now.

[01:22:24]>> Like how do you how do you view STRC versus real estate? Like is it is it a is it a fair comparison? Is would you still rather have real estate and why?

[01:22:34]So I would and again this is why it's tough. I would rather have real estate just because that was my game for 10 years and I know it well. Um and this is yeah I think for the average person STRC is probably better in saying that though this is like sailor's doing this right this strategy. So people might know it as the burr strategy. It kind of got famous in the last 15 years as being called the burr strategy but this this strategy has been played for a long time. This is what Robert Kiosaki built the rich dad poor dad thing on for 30 years is this exact strategy. Then it became the burr strategy with bigger pockets over the last 15 years as millennials started doing real estate and internet became a thing. And so sailors doing this with b business. You can do this with business too. You could come in and flip a business or you know re you know um be car Ion and you know leverage buyout raise money and then go take over a business clean it all up and then either run it or you could sell it off for a higher amount or whatever.

[01:23:21]People do this in self- storage. They do it, you know, all over in real estate and apartments and like so this is this is a strategy that's used all over the place. And for me, I would the reason I would like real estate more or I would do real estate more is just because of tax advantages and and literally having paying no taxes even that maybe even getting if you're doing cost segregation analysis on your properties or things like that, there's a chance that the government's paying you to own real estate, to own Bitcoin, everything if you're doing it properly. That being said, you know, again, it's something I did for 10 or 15 years. And you'd be surprised how many investors and real estate investors don't even do cost segregation analysis or like even go down the rabbit hole of just doing, you know, 100 hours of of studying of again all this comes back to just proof of work, right? Like studying, you know, the tax law is designed in America to and in really every country to benefit real estate owners because the government needs people owning the real estate. And so there are all the loopholes and incentives there. This is this is go back to the Trump thing of like, oh, you paid $765 in taxes, $765.

[01:24:19]He's like, yeah, that's because I'm smart. And but the thing is the tax code's there for everybody. That is the the insidious part about it in a way where like that this is goes back to schooling and like why are we taught these things in school and this is how I 15 20 years ago came about all of this cuz I was really mad. I stumbled upon those books and 20 years ago and I was like the hell like I've been asking these questions for years and no one had any answers. That's because the school system is designed to not teach you any of this purposely. Uh they don't want competition at the end of the day. So I got the kids all over the place back here. So guys, can you please please >> my kids going nuts nuts upstairs, too. I can hear.

[01:24:55]>> Good thing you got the brick wall. I mean, this is wild wild times we we're living in, boys and girls. Um so again, to me it would be real estate just because the tax advantages and when you're deploying it properly, you're paying zero tax. um legally paying zero tax and and so to me that's why and I I don't want to get into the paper world of of of of that but for the average person again it's a lot of education a lot of experience needed generally to do this and it ironically this is why I got out at the end of the day because you realize if I'm doing this for 10 years and there's no one behind me even doing this anymore they just start investing with you and you're like okay well no one's going to get ahead by oh let's teach people real estate I mean you can't and that's why you have to fix the money fixing the money is the thing that every person in the world can do they can understand they can get on, you know, get on board with and actually reorient the the structure of society.

[01:25:45]>> Well said. Um, I should probably go, guys. I don't know if you guys want to continue on, but uh I got to roll out.

[01:25:50]>> Yeah, I can deserve.

[01:25:52]>> Yeah, we could probably wrap things up here right away, but yeah, you can go give her hell for us. Yes. Thank you.

[01:25:56]>> I maybe we can do uh one more round of um because I I think we didn't do it last time but we did it previously. One nugget of information, one thing that you guys uh got from last week, something that you want to share and we just do a quick round with everyone and then we kind of uh wrap it up. Does someone already have something? Sure.

[01:26:21]You you you seem ready. I no I like that qu I I like your question Robin but I I like the Midwest pickers question because this is a real this is a real thing right now whether if you're if you're kind of the capital allocator of your family right now. Yeah. Maybe you have some Bitcoin already. Maybe you already have a house. It's like okay well where do I go next? What what's what's going to be better in 10 or 20 years from now? So I'm interested to hear what you guys think from just maybe real quickly because I I think we should uh wrap up here and get to that question from Robin. But would you guys rather have in 20 years beach beachfront property in California or one Bitcoin?

[01:26:58]And maybe people in the chat too definitely one Bitcoin.

[01:27:04]I I've heard so many I've heard so many negatives about beachfront property. So for example, there was a guy who basically said I would not I would rather not own beachfront property. He used to own beachfront property and he sold it cuz it was just really annoying.

[01:27:18]I mean, you're you're living next to water, like salt water, and that salt water is like adding it's rusting up everything that you have and the mist and it's messing you up. Um, I don't know. I don't think I'd want to deal with that. Um, there's >> there's >> just that part of would be really annoying. I mean, other than that, I mean, I don't really care for a beachfront property after a little while. I mean, even if you let's say you have a nice view, it's not like you're going to look at it every day. you get used to it.

[01:27:47]>> So like I I look at similar than than Russad. Um I mean it's a kind of hard comparison because beat from property um if you live in it or you rent it out or whatever you're doing with it. It comes with work as Rad said there's a lot of negative things that come with living next to salty things. um the cars are are worse, the the house like you have to deal with like all all those things. Um and Bitcoin you just have like like there's there's nothing to do with that. Of course, you have to safeguard your Bitcoin and this can be expensive or maybe it's is maybe it isn't um depending on what kind of strategy you're doing with with how you keep your Bitcoin and how much you're doing uh versus how much you're outsourcing. But keeping Bitcoin is so much easier than keeping a house. Like 100 times easier.

[01:28:43]And so I would always choose Bitcoin if it's the same equal value like if you like one house equals one one beach property. Um if the question is like what do you think will be more valuable in 10 years? One Bitcoin or one beachfront property. I mean, almost all of the Beatron properties will be less worth than the one Bitcoin. I think there might be some like crazy nice beatrron properties that are huge and like amazing. Like there there might just be like really nice beatrron properties that are so huge that are definitely worth more than a bitcoin, but it's not that many. Like there's a lot of shitty beatrron properties that already now are not costing that much and definitely not uh one bitcoin in 10 years.

[01:29:30]So uh the question itself is already like no I don't want to deal with real estate that kind of >> two for two bitcoin >> reat robin both bitcoin >> randon >> yeah no I mean I would absolutely take one bitcoin it's it's going to be worth more in USD terms or if USD is not here then it'll be just more purchasing power one bitcoin will absolutely you can buy two three beach houses at that point.

[01:30:01]Um, you know, that alone and then again back to the real estate thing too because I see some of the comments in here and it kind of dovetales back into this question of yeah I mean again for the average person I I think that Bitcoin like doing the stretch thing or or whatever it might be and then recycling that far easier you know way way way easier you know way better than trying to go get into real estate. It's a lot of as again like I left when I left real estate I was spending like five or 10 grand a month getting properties like that's how much I had to spend each month just to acquire you know one one or two properties a month that's how just how much competition there was you know just the markets you're in or whatever you know it just crazy people to you're employing just wild like just truly wild so um for me it's easily one bitcoin because and that was the other thing too that's why I mentioned city risk and m municipality risk all these different things or the entropy of the property, all this stuff.

[01:30:54]And so in a in a different time and and place, I would do real estate just because I have the knowledge already of how to do it and say things were cheaper. I could, you know, there's different ways that I would be doing it in in a sense. Uh, long story short, but yeah, I mean, even for me now, this is again why I one of the reasons I came to the conclusions, you know, 8 to 10 years ago of Bitcoin was, holy cow, like this is insane. The the level of of cost, time, energy just to acquire a property or two was so egregious that you just kind of look around like there's got to be a there's got to be there there's something wrong here. uh and I already had the prior knowledge I guess of gold and silver and being in that world and real estate and reading the Mike Maloney and you know all these guys from the past in monetary history. So Bitcoin became something very quickly you kind of gro. So again to answer the question, yeah I mean one bitcoin for sure the ease and simplicity and then in 10 20 years from now then it will make sense to then you know take your one bitcoin and buy whatever you want right then you're going to be transferring that for three beachfront properties or five or two or or one really massive you know 300 acre estate on you know in Miami or or something like that like right like it's going to be something where when it makes sense you want to do what you want to do great you build your citadel or whatever but that's that transfer when when the time is right and I've always joked just to land the plane here that I'll know when we kind of have hyper bitcoinization or when that when society is healed from um Marty McFly and Back to the Future 2 when you have Biff Tannon's pleasure paradise which I've given this example before when everything is on the alternate time continuum and Biff has destroyed everything with the sports almanac and everything's just on fire and you got you have a shotgun across your chest because you're just going to get gas and you're like you don't know who's going to come carjack you. Well, when society is healed it will be when the tenants of those properties are paying you in Bitcoin. That to me was when it would be kind of safe to step outside and go back into the wild, go back into real estate.

[01:32:42]Some of these legacy assets, PE ratios have come back. Cap rates have come back into, you know, the ROI and these different asset classes will come back in uh in and re been reigned in by Bitcoin. So, to me, that that's kind of what I'm looking for to eventually venture back out of the house and and into the legacy asset world.

[01:33:00]>> I love that. I love that um thought of of when you should be looking at other options because I think it makes so much sense because that essentially means that Bitcoin has been >> weaving into the mainstream already, which means >> there's there's much more demand, which means the price and the pursing power of that Bitcoin's much higher. So, we got three for three. I'm not going to challenge you guys here. I'm going to go four for four as well. I'd rather have one Bitcoin because, you know, a beachfront property in 20 years will probably cost you less than a million sats. So you hold on to that, you get a couple or even better, I think for me anyways, like I live in my paradise right now. I'd much rather live where I am right now than a beachfront property because there's no hurricanes here.

[01:33:38]There's no sharks. There's no uh crazy people, you know, chasing gators outside my door. But I will say that, you know, as a Bitcoiner, I'd much rather just hold my Bitcoin. And if I want to rent that beachfront property for a couple weeks every year, I can just do that. I can let somebody else worry about the hurricanes and the cleanups and the property taxes and the the mayor and and what color hairs she has this week. It's just there's too many uncertainties, too many things out of my control for real estate. I'm sticking to Bitcoin in my purple uh cold card here.

[01:34:14]>> Amazing.

[01:34:15]>> Oh, good.

[01:34:16]>> I love that. Thank you so much for the question because I think this is a like it's just a nice perspective switch from what what would I choose and how much do I think will will Bitcoin be valued at and what actually uh what actually what kind of perspective should I put on Bitcoin? Uh you guys have time for the last question?

[01:34:37]>> Yeah, I'll go because I was kind of thinking about it. So I started using I've been kind of experimenting with different be VPNs for the last couple months I'd say. Uh, but I I finally came across one I think that I'm going to stick with. And it's uh it's it's from Obscura. I don't know if you guys have heard of that before. I think it's called Obscura. Should double check that.

[01:34:56]>> But they use kind of a different way.

[01:34:57]And I'm not even going to try to explain how it happens, but it seems much more legitimate. Instead of all the traffic going through your VPN provider, it kind of I think it masks it or goes clear. I I don't know how it works. I shouldn't have tried. But you don't need an email.

[01:35:13]You don't need a phone number. you can pay in Bitcoin. It's very easy to do.

[01:35:17]And uh I've been looking for something like Obscura for a while. And I believe that they're Bitcoiners, too. Obviously, if they accept Bitcoin, they're probably Bitcoiners. But uh VPNs are going to be pretty important. And I think that uh it's worth a shot. You can even try it out for like one month just for like 5,000 sats or something like that. So that that's my recommendation for the week.

[01:35:37]>> Yeah. And I just put in the chat >> Yeah. I just put in the chat, too. Um, you know, Ben Parn is going to be has a new channel he's starting in a couple months, uh, sovereign sessions, which is this is, you know, really feels like to what Robin you were saying earlier, right, with Bitcoin and AI. I I feel like the we can all feel it like the new plank going forward is going to be how do you keep yourself private, secure, you know, free, whatever you want to, whatever you want to call it. Uh, so that's Ben's channel, I think, starting in August where it's going to be all this stuff like the VPNs, the local LLM, uh, you know, all the different, you know, stuff that we're all just kind of starting to get into and figure out like, hey, how do we operate, uh, in this new world we're about to enter where the walls are closing in all around us. So, um, that's going to be really interesting because that just feels like the the the logical next step for many of us Bitcoiners.

[01:36:27]>> So, >> great chat. Awesome chat today, guys.

[01:36:32]Fa, what do you got?

[01:36:36]>> Oh, man. Uh, I' I've been cough. I I just I keep getting sidetracked by these coughs. Um, I I think so. Actually, I wanted to go back to what we were talking about with the loans.

[01:36:49]>> Okay.

[01:36:50]>> I think that's that I think that part's important. So, I think it's important not only to to take loans the right way, but also know what your liquidation numbers are, >> right?

[01:37:00]>> So, like when you would get liquidated, right? And that's something that a lot of people don't quite know. I I had a call with somebody who uh he had eight Bitcoin and he used four of that bit four of those Bitcoin for a loan and he got liquidated. He lost four Bitcoin >> and now he's never going to get it back.

[01:37:17]And the the crazy thing is that he got liquidated just under 60K.

[01:37:24]And the reason why he got liquidated was because he was at work and he couldn't access his accounts. So, I mean, the way that I look at it, I I feel like you should have a massive buffer between where you're going to get liquidated and and where you're you're just safe and where you are right now. uh for him unfortunately the price went just below his liquidation price and he got he he got automatically liquidated. So I think that's important uh just and just going back to what we were talking about I think that part is really important if you're going to take Bitcoin back loans you need to know when you're going to get liquidated. Good thing is that with uh >> we're not affiliated with them at all.

[01:38:02]Uh but with I I use Lein personally. The good thing is that on their site it's actually pretty pretty easy to see when you would get liquidated. It shows you uh based on your interest like how much interest you're paying uh how much it increases over time your liquidation price and just keeping that in mind is key if you want to borrow against your bitcoin. Borrowing against your bitcoin is actually let's go back to uh just buying bitcoin. Buying bitcoin is the easy part. Holding it is the hard part.

[01:38:31]If you're going to borrow against it that that combines everything. So, it's like that's like that's the black belt of Bitcoin, right? The borrowing against Bitcoin is the black belt of Bitcoin. If you don't know how to do that properly, then you're going to get your ass kicked by the other black belts like the exchanges and the lenders.

[01:38:50]>> Yes, >> I love that.

[01:38:52]>> I love that point. And and the best time, >> sorry, Robert, really quick, the last thing I'll chime in with, the best time to do if you're if you're going to go the Bitcoin loan route or you you need to or whatever it is, um the best time to do is now like like in a bare market.

[01:39:06]Um you know, obviously none of this is financial advice by any of us, but the best time, you know, we saw a lot of people get liquidated because they took out loans at 110, 120, 126, whatever. Um and then they get liquidated at 90, 80, you know, 70, whatever. So, you know, the best time is in a bear if you're going to do it. just you know FYI. So, >> and whenever you like as Rashad said and I just want to reiterate that whenever you're taking out a loan, think about Bitcoin crashing 80%. Will you still be fine? If not, you might not want to do that. Like like think about a crazy situation like because you never think about that's going to happen or it's it's a crazy thing. But people usually do those fancy financial engineering things when it's the height of the market.

[01:39:53]>> The height of the market is like 200k, 250k and it's maybe I don't know January 297 we had like 280,000 and people like let's go all in. Let's get a borrowing and some Bitcoin. I just pay 10% uh interest and that's fine. Then it drops down to 100K or drops down to 90K and they get liquidated. Bitcoin goes back up to 400k and they miss the whole thing. Like I I really want to avoid that situation. So think very hard about that's why my default is usually don't do it >> because if you if my default is don't do it, the people that will still do it will do more research. They will dig deeper. They will try to prove me wrong and they'll do more homework. So my default is always like like just don't do it. You will burn yourself. Um, even though I know you can do this strategy very profitable, you can do this strategy in a very efficient way. Uh, because selling Bitcoin is obviously a bad thing. It's a it's you lose the asset, you might have to pay taxes. So like it's it has all like it's very bad.

[01:41:01]So holding on to it is the important thing. So it can be a very good thing to do. Uh, but be very careful with it because the risk of losing it all is very real. Now I want to uh bring bring it back to the question that Joe was saying. Uh my small nugget of information this this week is drinking water. It's actually a question I get a lot. Why do I have such a huge mug and I have it since >> soon? So big.

[01:41:31]>> Yeah, it's it's it's bigger my than my hat. So it's like it's it's it's really like it's one liter. So it's like it's a huge thing. It's actually heavy also.

[01:41:38]like it it's a workout also for me every single day just putting it up because the mug itself is empty already heavy and now it's empty but with one liter of water in it it's it's it's quite heavy actually but I have that because I never drink enough water if I if I don't have it on my desk if I just have the one small glass or like a small mug or something like that I fill it up once drink it and that's it if I have the big one I drink the whole thing it's already one liter I fill it up again, I have a second liter. And then I usually try to drink like as much as possible like with a third one. So that's the whole story why I have this. And why I say that is drink as much water as possible and stop drinking water like 3 hours, 4 hours before you go to bed. Uh it's just way better for uh sleeping and like you'll have issues with going to uh going to pee at like 3:00 in the morning uh and all of that. Like I had those issues and then like I just stopped drinking anything like 3 hours before sleep and there's no more issues with like uh having to go to pee at 3 in the morning and then no longer being able to sleep afterwards.

[01:42:52]>> We're just throwing a diaper. Amazing.

[01:42:55]>> I learned all here. That's what Bitcoiners do. We educate about everything in life.

[01:43:02]That got me, dude. Like, just throw in a diaper. Like, just drink water till the last moment and just throw in a diaper.

[01:43:12]>> Oh [ __ ] Good uh good show today, boys.

[01:43:14]Uh big shout out to >> Great job. Great show.

[01:43:16]>> Um Forest and Brandon for both having to deal with some background noise and and getting through it. So, that's that's uh props to you, man, because there's a lot even minimal amount of things going on out here still distracts me. So, I can't even imagine what you're uh dealing with back there. So, >> click on the mute button. That's all.

[01:43:35]It's always on perpetually.

[01:43:37]>> And also, thank you, Rashad, for sticking with us having a cough. Like, uh it seems like you you should take some risk.

[01:43:45]>> It's horrible. I hate it. It's so annoying.

[01:43:49]>> Now, we just got to uh next next time we get together, Robin, we'll have a we'll have a drink of moonshine together.

[01:43:55]Actually, I'm coming to Prague. Did I tell you that >> you come to Prague? Awesome. Are you coming to Vienna, too? It's so close.

[01:44:02]>> I'm thinking about it. Yeah, I'll have to talk to you. I'm I'm I'm 99% sure I'm going, but yeah, we'll uh So, I'll get to see you. I'm assuming you're going, right?

[01:44:12]>> I'm there 100%.

[01:44:14]>> Heck yeah.

[01:44:16]>> Awesome. Uh wait, I'll I'll do one more thing. I almost forgot it. Today we have our uh >> uh BTC mastermind channel and there's a lot of people actually watching there.

[01:44:28]Uh um it was actually the same level as most of our uh YouTube channels which is amazing. Uh we have now also almost 30 people watching the the brick walls looks so cool here in the small thing if you see it here. Um and so if you haven't known like we do this every Tuesday there will be more chats.

[01:44:48]There's actually if everything goes according to plan there might be actually this first day a second round table if I get it together.

[01:44:58]Um I don't want to promise it but there might be a new thing coming up that is just on that channel. Um uh and so this is a new channel where there's roundts uh and where we will show up every uh Tuesday once and uh yeah it's uh it will be the future home of of that conversation and I'm looking forward to it and at some point we'll probably stop uh streaming it on on the other channels.

[01:45:27]>> What give us a teaser who's who's the who's the other squad?

[01:45:33]It's we I want to have one that is fully focused on the the strategy and the stretch and the the the treasury company space because I think it's a very important one. uh one that I completely underestimated, one that I dismissed way too much and um I talked with Chase Palm, with Adrien Morris, with with people uh uh that that really know know the stuff with strategy and and treasury companies way more than than I do. And uh we might just uh uh try uh how it is working this first for the first time ever. And yeah, looking looking forward to it.

[01:46:14]Cool. I was looking for naming, but that'll do.

[01:46:17]>> Love it. Love it. Great stuff, guys.

[01:46:20]>> Then, thank you so much and we'll be back uh next week on on on Tuesday.

[01:46:26]>> Thanks, guys. Thanks, everybody. Looking forward to it.

[01:46:29]>> Thanks, guys. Great chat.