Episode : Stop Putting Out Fires—Fix the System

[00:00:00][music] >> Welcome to the Cabrera Lab podcast.

[00:00:05]>> What's up?

[00:00:06]>> How's it going?

[00:00:07]>> Excellent.

[00:00:08]>> Nice.

[00:00:09]>> Really really good.

[00:00:10]>> Awesome.

[00:00:11]>> There's a lot going on, but it's awesome.

[00:00:13]>> lot going on.

[00:00:13]>> Okay, listen.

[00:00:14]>> Speaking of which, >> What?

[00:00:16]>> I think this episode >> Yeah.

[00:00:19]>> is going to be the last episode in this studio.

[00:00:23]>> That is very exciting. Which means >> episode will be coming from our studio in Montana.

[00:00:30]Because we are moving.

[00:00:33]>> Westward expansion.

[00:00:34]>> Yeah.

[00:00:35]>> [laughter] >> Manifest destiny.

[00:00:37]>> Manifest destiny.

[00:00:38]>> Uh to Montana.

[00:00:40]>> Yes.

[00:00:40]>> So, it's both kind of like >> Yeah.

[00:00:43]>> What's the old saying? Don't cry cuz it's over.

[00:00:47]Smile cuz it happened. Yeah. And and it's an exciting shift.

[00:00:51]>> It's an exciting shift for us.

[00:00:53]>> Yeah.

[00:00:53]>> Uh professionally, personally.

[00:00:55]>> Getting back to the mountains.

[00:00:56]>> Yes, we may we have always said at a certain point in our lives when our children at a certain ages >> Yes.

[00:01:03]>> we would head back that way.

[00:01:05]>> Yes, and the kids are coming.

[00:01:06]>> And I had promised you that you would have mountains in your view at some point in your life. So, now we are.

[00:01:12]>> Cuz on the East Coast, it's just hills.

[00:01:14]That's a distinction.

[00:01:16]>> Well, >> there's no mountains on the East Coast.

[00:01:18]>> There are what some people call mountains, but they're just different than the ones out there. Let's not be like >> on top of it, it's not a mountain.

[00:01:25]>> Listen, remember I summited that mountain in New Hampshire before I turned 50, and that to me was a mountain.

[00:01:31]>> Well, that was Mount Washington, and that that's kind of like close to a mountain.

[00:01:36]>> So, let's be careful with how you say things.

[00:01:38]>> I'm sorry.

[00:01:39]>> Right?

[00:01:40]>> Yes.

[00:01:40]>> Cuz I climbed a mountain. It was a small mountain.

[00:01:43]>> Well, it was it's a >> But it was a mountain.

[00:01:45]>> It Yeah.

[00:01:46]>> Yes, so that's exciting because there'll be a new look >> Yes.

[00:01:51]>> to the studio.

[00:01:51]>> Yes.

[00:01:52]>> And we'll be the same, but different.

[00:01:55]>> But different, >> yeah.

[00:01:57]>> All right, so listen, I was having a conversation with somebody that I know and respect very highly, a leader.

[00:02:02]>> Yeah.

[00:02:03]>> That we've been working with for a long time.

[00:02:05]>> Mhm.

[00:02:06]>> She was describing some She wanted me to do sort of a live sync it through on a phone call. So we did a So we're going to reproduce sort of what we were talking about here because I thought it was a really interesting question.

[00:02:16]>> Okay.

[00:02:17]>> She's in a place that has several different divisions.

[00:02:21]She's the head of one of them. And there's all kinds of issues across division division to division communication, which also is happening desk to desk, person to person.

[00:02:34]>> Mhm.

[00:02:34]>> So it's starting to permeate their culture that they have a communication problem across many different levels.

[00:02:40]>> Got it.

[00:02:41]>> She's also starting to sense that all of this conflict at the local level is sort of distracting away from the larger purpose and vision that they all share.

[00:02:50]>> Mhm.

[00:02:50]>> And when we were talking, I said to her something that you and I had talked about earlier, which is the instantiation versus the pattern.

[00:02:57]And I said, "So you need to see the pattern across these levels of scale, not just focus." Cuz she said that everyone's trying to solve the person to person at the local base level communication problem.

[00:03:09]>> Mhm.

[00:03:10]>> And they're focusing on every single conflict feels like a different conflict, but it's actually the same conflict. Do you get what I'm saying?

[00:03:17]>> 100%.

[00:03:18]>> And so I thought it would be interesting to talk about why it's so easy for us to stay at that instantiation level, the local level when we're trying to solve problems, and not sort of see it as a larger fractal.

[00:03:34]You know what I mean?

[00:03:35]>> Mhm.

[00:03:36]>> Am I making sense cuz you're giving me a funny face.

[00:03:38]>> No, you're making total sense. Um I'm I'm worried I'm going to go on a tangent that seems not related to what you're actually asking.

[00:03:47]>> You're worrying about that now.

[00:03:49]>> Yes.

[00:03:49]>> 100 and some episodes in.

[00:03:50]>> Yeah.

[00:03:51]>> [laughter] >> But it'll come back around, I promise.

[00:03:55]>> trust you. We're going to go on a bike ride. Let's go.

[00:03:57]>> So, it's important to understand I want to do like a thought experiment.

[00:04:03]>> Okay.

[00:04:04]>> Imagine if you couldn't and never and didn't and had never heard of a metaphor.

[00:04:13]>> Okay.

[00:04:14]>> Or an analogy.

[00:04:16]>> Okay.

[00:04:16]>> Right? Like it's so hard to even imagine.

[00:04:20]>> Yeah.

[00:04:21]>> It would be an almost impossible for a human in this day and age to imagine a time or a place or a situation where they were not aware of this thing we call a metaphor.

[00:04:35]>> Mhm.

[00:04:36]>> A metaphor is that something is some other thing. So, this thing is this thing.

[00:04:46]>> Mhm.

[00:04:46]>> That's a metaphor.

[00:04:47]>> Mhm.

[00:04:48]>> And an analogy, which is very similar to a metaphor, that this thing is to this other thing as in the same way that this thing is to this other thing.

[00:05:04]>> Mhm.

[00:05:04]>> A is to P as B is to Q, let's say. Yeah, sorry.

[00:05:08]>> And and what's really important here is an analogy is this whole thing on the left, this relationship, is like this whole thing on the right, this relationship.

[00:05:19]>> Mhm.

[00:05:20]>> Right? And of course a simile is the same as a metaphor where it's just A is like B.

[00:05:27]>> Mhm.

[00:05:28]>> And the reason this is so important is because what these things reveal is a common structural pattern.

[00:05:39]>> Yes.

[00:05:40]>> And if you didn't know about this pattern >> Mhm.

[00:05:43]>> then every time you heard a metaphor or an analogy or a simile, you would think it was something totally new. And you would you would mistake what the person was saying. Like Shakespeare, for example, said, "All the world is a stage." He was making a metaphor.

[00:06:00]>> Mhm.

[00:06:00]>> Right? All the world is a stage. Is the world is a stage.

[00:06:05]>> Yeah.

[00:06:06]>> And the men and women actors, the players.

[00:06:12]>> Yeah.

[00:06:12]>> Another metaphor.

[00:06:14]>> Yep.

[00:06:14]>> And then he said they have their their exits and their entrances.

[00:06:18]>> Yes.

[00:06:19]>> Right? He's talking another metaphor.

[00:06:21]>> Yes.

[00:06:22]>> Right? And inside of the metaphor, a nested set of analogies.

[00:06:27]>> Yes.

[00:06:28]>> Right? Amazing. Yeah, it's part of the really special part of the brilliance of Shakespeare. Well, so he's just nesting analogies inside of metaphors and metaphors inside of analogies. And all that comes from seeing the structural pattern, not the instantiation.

[00:06:46]>> Yes, 100%.

[00:06:47]>> That's the crux.

[00:06:48]>> I see your connection. We want everyone in the world on the path to pro. White belt, yellow belt, blue belt, landing in the PST credential.

[00:06:57]>> The professional systems thinker credential. And that's not just personal, it's also part of a wider vision of 8 billion systems thinkers above the standard, which is the professional systems thinker or PST.

[00:07:12]Count yourself in, do it, and let's change ourselves. And when we change ourselves, we change the world. The connection I'm trying to make is not just the pattern, cuz a a pattern is just a repeating instantiation. An instantiation is, you know, this thing happens, an instance.

[00:07:30]>> Mhm.

[00:07:30]>> An instance happens.

[00:07:32]An instance of X, and then another instance, and then another instance.

[00:07:37]>> Mhm.

[00:07:38]>> And anything past two is a pattern.

[00:07:41]>> Yes.

[00:07:42]>> So this is the pattern. The instance is different than the pattern. And in order to see the pattern, you have to see the structure. Struc- That's why structure is so important. Or another word for structure is organization.

[00:07:54]>> Right.

[00:07:55]>> When we say M equals IO, we're talking about mental models or meaning is equal to the information organized.

[00:08:05]>> Mhm.

[00:08:06]>> So, when we organize information, we make meaning. And organization is made up of these four patterns.

[00:08:13]>> Right.

[00:08:13]>> If you don't see the patterns, if you don't see the struc- They're structural patterns, you don't see the underlying structure, then you get confused by the instantiations.

[00:08:24]And this is honestly happening to all humans all the time. We're constantly thinking that different that instances of the same thing are totally different when they're actually just repeating patterns of the same structures.

[00:08:44]And then you used the word, really important word, fractals.

[00:08:47]>> Mhm.

[00:08:48]>> Fractals are just patterns that are going across part-whole.

[00:08:55]>> Levels of scale, yeah.

[00:08:57]>> They're structural patterns that are going across levels of scale.

[00:09:01]>> Mhm.

[00:09:02]>> The instantiation that we're seeing at the individual level and the instantiation that we're seeing at the or at the departmental level >> Yep.

[00:09:11]>> of silos, right?

[00:09:13]>> Yep.

[00:09:13]>> So, department, department, department, silo, silo, silo.

[00:09:17]>> Mhm.

[00:09:17]>> And at the individual level, two people communicating, conflict, conflict, conflict.

[00:09:24]>> Mhm.

[00:09:24]>> Or conflict, conflict, conflict across the silos, that is a structural pattern that is happening fractally across scale.

[00:09:36]>> Yes.

[00:09:37]>> And what it communicates to you is it's not really about all the instantiations, it's about the culture.

[00:09:42]>> Yes, and here's the problem though. We start to solve the instantiations as if they're all different.

[00:09:50]>> Totally.

[00:09:50]>> We miss the fact that we have a problem that's a pattern of behavior across [clears throat] our culture.

[00:09:58]>> Yes.

[00:09:59]>> People struggle to move beyond what's right what's happening today. What's right in front of me A to B or you know, this department to that department. And so I I get as a leader I'm like, I've got to solve this problem.

[00:10:14]>> Yeah, this is what putting out fires looks like. You're putting out fires while you're dragging a muffler that is sparking behind you and creating fires.

[00:10:27]>> Yes.

[00:10:28]>> At some point you got to solve the pattern. Otherwise, you will be putting out fires for the rest of your life.

[00:10:34]And by the way, you're the the structure the structural patterns are creating those fires. And there's no limit to the amount of fires that can be created.

[00:10:45]It's a it's a fire creation machine.

[00:10:48]>> Well, and that's why you get workhorses that are demotivated, frustrated, feeling ineffective, lacking efficiencies.

[00:10:58]>> But you know what they are?

[00:11:00]They're busy.

[00:11:01]>> They are busy.

[00:11:02]>> They're busy and and they feel like they're working hard.

[00:11:05]And they are working hard. They're putting out fires.

[00:11:08]>> too hard.

[00:11:08]>> And they're busy. And this is why busy should never be the litmus test for effective.

[00:11:17]>> That's true. That's true. 100%.

[00:11:19]>> Because when you're effective, you go to the you go to the you understand the fractal, you understand the patterns, and you fix the systemic structures that are leading to those patterns and all those instantiations.

[00:11:33]>> Yeah.

[00:11:34]>> And this is as true in organizations as it is in life. I mean, we've talked about it before. It's like if you if you if you in your life are you know, you date this person and and you know, you have this train wreck of a relationship and then you have another train wreck of relationship and another train wreck of a and but the problem is that's three relationships. This one was named Bob.

[00:11:55]This one was named Frank and this one was named, you know, John.

[00:11:58]>> Mhm.

[00:11:59]>> And so you go, well, Bob is not Frank is not John. And you're like, yeah, but there's a pattern.

[00:12:03]>> Of the type of relationship I get into.

[00:12:05][clears throat] >> might as well be Frank, might as well be John.

[00:12:08]>> Which means >> Cuz it's a pattern.

[00:12:09]>> this conflict might as well be this conflict, might as well be this silo.

[00:12:13]And so let's go back to what you said earlier, which is you said something I can't remember how you said it. Solve for the pattern or something. I can't remember.

[00:12:19]>> Solve for the underlying structural pattern.

[00:12:21]>> So how do you do that if you're talking to a person and saying, this is my life.

[00:12:25]How do they do that?

[00:12:26]>> the first thing you do is you learn the moves and DSRP because those are the those are the ontological structural patterns that are universal across all these structures.

[00:12:39]And so if we if we learn those, it's a lot easier to see the patterns. It's a pattern seeking language essentially.

[00:12:47]>> Right.

[00:12:47]>> That will help you see the patterns.

[00:12:49]That instead of instead of Frank, Bob, John, or whatever the words were, you're you're going, oh, relationship, relationship, relationship, structure, structure, structure, what I'm attracting, what I'm attracting, what I'm attracting, what I'm attracted to, what I'm attracted to, what I'm attracted to, change the signal, change the signal, change the signal, >> Mhm.

[00:13:13]>> attract something different, attract something different, attract something different.

[00:13:16]>> Right. In this case, then it seems to me the commonality is the breakdown of relationships at this level, this level, and this level.

[00:13:25]>> Yeah.

[00:13:26]>> Which means to solve for the pattern.

[00:13:28]The pattern is the relationships are failing, the relationships aren't there, the relationships are whatever you want to say.

[00:13:35]>> Yeah, the pattern is there's no shared mental models.

[00:13:37]>> Right.

[00:13:38]>> That's the pattern.

[00:13:39]>> So, to solve for the pattern is you have to say we have to do something.

[00:13:42]>> mental models.

[00:13:44]You got to work on what is the mental model that we need to share, and let's let's work on getting everybody on the same page.

[00:13:50]>> Mhm.

[00:13:51]>> And if everybody's sharing the same mental model, they will be on the same page even if they're not in the same room, the same the same building, the same whatever.

[00:13:59]They will be on the same page because they're they share the same mental model. That's the power of culture.

[00:14:05]>> Right. So, that means the unit of analysis for the solution for her >> Mhm.

[00:14:12]>> is the culture articulating this mental model she wants shared across her her division >> Mhm.

[00:14:19]>> among the divisions.

[00:14:21]>> Yep.

[00:14:22]>> And at every level of scale, right? At every level of that fractal that we were talking about.

[00:14:26]>> And you know what's really ironic?

[00:14:29]In most organizations, not this person's but in most organizations, if you said, "Hey, solve get everybody on the same page. Take the time to build the right mental models that are shared and get everybody to share those mental models." They would say "That That takes a lot of time and we're busy."

[00:14:51]>> Yeah, that's true.

[00:14:52]>> That's what they would say.

[00:14:53]>> Yeah.

[00:14:54]>> "We're busy. What are you busy doing?"

[00:14:55]"Oh, putting out fires."

[00:14:56]>> Mhm.

[00:14:57]>> That's what they would say.

[00:14:58]>> Yeah.

[00:14:59]>> That's what they would say.

[00:15:01]>> Yeah.

[00:15:01]>> And that's that will be the reason why they don't fix the pattern. Is that they're too busy putting out fires.

[00:15:09]>> Right. And you and I >> Which the pattern is creating.

[00:15:12]>> Yes. And they're in this circle of >> And then you're in a circle >> ridiculousness.

[00:15:16]>> of ridiculous busyness.

[00:15:18]>> Right.

[00:15:18]>> And exhaustion, and demotivation, and extremely costly. Like it doesn't get any more costly than that.

[00:15:25]>> No.

[00:15:26]>> Right? I mean cuz you because you're making all those things externalities.

[00:15:30]Imagine just putting out fires and starting new ones and putting out fires and starting new ones and putting out fires and starting new ones. It never ends. So it starts to be demotivating.

[00:15:40]It starts to be exhausting. It starts to be just like a grind.

[00:15:44]>> Mhm.

[00:15:45]>> And what is And all of those things are externalities of cost. We don't factor those in when we factor in how effective we were at fighting this fire and that fire and this fire. We're not factoring in the cost of our entire firefighting force is exhausted. Our entire fighting firefighting force is ineffective.

[00:16:04]>> Yeah.

[00:16:05]>> We don't We don't factor those in in the cost.

[00:16:09]>> Right.

[00:16:09]>> cost is immense.

[00:16:11]>> Yeah. And I think one of the things that people have a hard time understanding is you can people say all of the time they're fighting out they're putting out fires blah blah blah. This came up, that came up, blah blah blah.

[00:16:25]I think what a lot of people don't know is that you can actually design your systems to not ignite in the first place, right? To reduce that use it as spark on a muffler or something. That's what I >> Absolutely.

[00:16:37]>> Um and I think the question is, okay, well what do you have to do to do that? You have to take a step back. You have to actually see that you're in a pattern, a structural pattern of problems, issues, however you want to say it.

[00:16:51]So first you have to recognize that there is a pattern.

[00:16:54]>> Totally.

[00:16:55]>> Then you have to say, okay, what's the common structural breakdown that's manifesting across levels of scale from this pattern. Well, in this case we see it's all in the relationships, like the RDS barbells.

[00:17:08]>> Yeah.

[00:17:09]>> Well, that's where you're seeing it manifest, but it's really in the it's in the lack of sharedness of mental models in this particular case.

[00:17:17]>> Right, but are you saying then yes, culture share we want a shared mental model in the culture around that, but the sort of on the ground work is you've got to you've got to focus in on all of these relationships attending to oh, what is the relationship between these two and how do I concretize it? How do I develop it? What's the relationship between these two people? How do I concretize it? How do I develop it, right? Here across these two people I don't know. It seems like >> Well, what and what is the mental model of this relationship?

[00:17:47]>> Right.

[00:17:48]>> Right? How do these two departments interact? And does this person and this person share that mental model? This person may never may never actually interact with this person. This interaction may never happen cuz this person's in this department and this person's in this department. But if they both share the same mental model about how these two departments should work together, they will effectively be working together.

[00:18:15]>> Yes.

[00:18:16]>> Because they share the same mental model.

[00:18:18]>> I love that. I think that's really smart.

[00:18:20]I think that's really good. I think >> They never have to even know each other exists and they're working together.

[00:18:26]They're on the same team. They're they're not just getting a paycheck from the same company.

[00:18:33]>> Right.

[00:18:33]>> They're on the same team because they share the same mental model and they might never talk and they might never know each other.

[00:18:41]>> Yeah.

[00:18:42]>> But they share the same mental model of how these two departments should work together.

[00:18:47]>> And that shared mental model of how they work together affects how they do their work at their desk and affects the strength of that relationship in and of itself.

[00:18:55]>> Yes.

[00:18:56]>> Which makes the work better.

[00:18:57]>> Yes. Imagine imagine if you had a a you know, if you had a big lake and you had a rowboat that was super long >> That is yeah.

[00:19:07]>> And let's say you that you had like a a blind black black screen that cut the rowboat in half.

[00:19:14]And you had a person back here and a person up here. They're never going to meet each other.

[00:19:18]But they're two oars. If they have the same mental model of where they're going, they're going to both they're both going to that tree, then they might never know each other. They might never see each other. They're not purposefully coordinating.

[00:19:34]They're not talking to each other and saying, "Hey, we got to do this do different." But they will they will effectively and efficiently get to this tree in almost a straight line because they will adaptively correct for the shared mental model of the goal.

[00:19:52]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:19:53]>> Even though they can't see each other, aren't talking to each other, etc. That's the same thing here. The power of shared mental models of being on the same page is is absolutely That is what culture is. Culture is mental models shared by some statistical >> I think also um >> group >> the importance of culture cannot be overstated.

[00:20:17]Especially in today's world where teams are so distributed >> Totally.

[00:20:21]>> geographically.

[00:20:23]>> Culture is your superpower as an organization. The problem is people think it's this amorphous thing.

[00:20:29]They people think that they don't they're too busy to build it.

[00:20:32]>> Yeah.

[00:20:33]>> You're too busy not to use that superpower. That is your superpower.

[00:20:38]Culture will trump all other things.

[00:20:41]>> Yeah.

[00:20:41]>> If you if you build it >> Yeah.

[00:20:44]>> If you don't build it it'll make the boat go in circles.

[00:20:48]>> Yes, but think about it also literally to this example.

[00:20:52]If you don't build it and you don't focus on that pattern, you're just going to live in that hellish nature of instantiations >> It's Groundhog >> over and over and over again.

[00:21:03]>> Day.

[00:21:04]>> And that will be very demoralizing.

[00:21:06]>> Yeah, I mean it it I mean that's what the being at the instantiation level is Groundhog Day.

[00:21:12]>> Yeah.

[00:21:12]>> Right? It's the you're living the same day over and over again. You're putting out the same fires.

[00:21:18]And you're not seeing the pattern, which is that you're living in a you know, in a fake world.

[00:21:22]>> Yeah.

[00:21:23]>> Whatever that movie was.

[00:21:25]>> Truman Show?

[00:21:25]>> Yeah.

[00:21:26]>> Yeah, I mean, but I think it's like, you know, so many times I hear people say same stuff, different day. Same stuff, different day. And I I I just want to say stop.

[00:21:36]>> What I would say is different stuff, same system.

[00:21:39]>> Different stuff, same system.

[00:21:40]>> Different stuff, same pattern. Different stuff, same pattern.

[00:21:44]>> Oh, yeah, yeah. I get it. Yeah.

[00:21:45]>> the every one of the things is different, but what's the same is the pattern. You got to flip it.

[00:21:51]>> Yeah. No, I like that.

[00:21:52]>> You want to see that the thing that's the same >> Yeah.

[00:21:56]>> is the pattern that underlies all those different instantiations. Cuz the instantiations will be dressed in different clothing. They won't look the same. That's how that we get tricked by the instantiations. They look different.

[00:22:09]Today they're wearing blue. Tomorrow they're wearing red.

[00:22:13]They look different.

[00:22:14]>> Yeah.

[00:22:14]>> So we think of them as different, but they're not different. They're the same manifestation of pattern. Which means that your system structure is determining those instantiations.

[00:22:25]>> Yeah.

[00:22:26]>> So find the look for that.

[00:22:28]>> Yeah.

[00:22:28]>> And in order to do that, you have to become skilled at seeing structure.

[00:22:35]>> Yeah.

[00:22:35]>> That's fundamentally what the moves in DSRP is about is just increasing your skill at seeing the underlying structural patterns of things. So that you don't miss it, because otherwise, it's like living in a world without understanding a metaphor.

[00:22:52]>> Mhm.

[00:22:52]>> Without understanding an analogy.

[00:22:55]Without understanding a simile.

[00:22:57]Which are simple little structures that underlie these things. But if you didn't know about those structures, you would just think, "What the hell?

[00:23:05]>> Yeah, everything >> is a stage? No, it's not.

[00:23:09]>> Cuz you'd be scared.

[00:23:10]>> What? The world is an Is it It's a stage?

[00:23:13]>> Yeah, you'd be confused all the time.

[00:23:16]>> What? That makes no sense. Like, it's hard to even grasp what that would be like.

[00:23:21]>> Yeah, it's hard. It's It's It's hard even in this moment to think about what would that feel like, what would that experience be not to have an understanding of the underlying structure and how it can repeat.

[00:23:34]>> Yeah.

[00:23:35]>> You know, so interesting.

[00:23:37]>> like you wouldn't understand There would be so many things you wouldn't understand if you didn't understand metaphors.

[00:23:43]Like, so many things.

[00:23:45]>> Yeah. So, we have to force ourselves, remind ourselves I shouldn't say force.

[00:23:49]We should remind ourselves when we have that moment and we're saying, "Oh, here I am again. Here I am again."

[00:23:55]>> Yeah.

[00:23:56]>> Here I am again, whether it's in personal relationships, professional issues, problems, team divisions, whatever. When you hear yourself say, "Here we go again. Here I am." Stop and say to yourself, "Hmm, let's look at the last three times I was here and what's the thing that's across them structurally? What's the commonality and the pattern? And then let me think about how do I solve for that pattern rather than the instantiations?"

[00:24:21]>> And just as a quick litmus, if you're too busy, you're not too busy.

[00:24:27]>> You're too busy You can't be too busy because you're going to be there forever.

[00:24:31]>> Yeah, being too busy is the excuse we get all the time.

[00:24:35]And that is just That's just like putting That's the cherry on top of I am not seeing structural patterns.

[00:24:41]>> Yes.

[00:24:43]>> That's like, "Oh, you're Yeah."

[00:24:45]>> and I won't be in purgatory forever.

[00:24:46]>> Yeah, you're in purgatory.

[00:24:47]>> Yes. Yes, and it's comfortable.

[00:24:50]>> Groundhog Day. You're >> Partially cuz it's comfortable.

[00:24:52]>> Yeah, that's the That's the crux.

[00:24:54]>> Yeah, you got to push yourself out of that, for sure.

[00:24:57]>> Capiche?

[00:24:59]>> Capiche.

[00:25:01]>> That's a wrap.

[00:25:02]>> [music]