W zborze traktowali ją jak powietrze a nie była wykluczona - Rozmowa z Ala - cz1

Ajouté : 2026-05-19

[00:00:00]And he ordered my mother to beat me. The elders of the congregation, the elder of the congregation told your mother that you should beat them, then things will be nice at the meeting. To be polite.

[00:00:11]I prayed and why me? Why do these things happen to me? Maybe you don't want to? Maybe I'm better off out of this or I don't have to live at all. I was sitting there when I got out. I have no one outside the church, no one will talk to me. Well, that's simply the end of life. Well, in the morning I find out that there is a war and who called me first? My friend, who is not a witness, because he came to work and found out that there was a war and on the other hand, you know, I wrote to my friend, read it and silence.

[00:00:41]Ala, what was it like for 5 years of being among people who were formally your spiritual family, but in practice treated you as if you were complete strangers, as if you didn't exist? Well, it was terrible back then, because it was the teenage years. I was a teenager who needed attention, needed friends, and it turned out that I had everything the other way around. It's not known why they did it, because I know that there was just some group of so-called pioneers, clergy people who decided that I should be thrown out at a meeting because they didn't like something there.

[00:01:17]I didn't know what it was about, why, but the fact was that, as I say, I was unofficially excluded.

[00:01:25]Exactly, because you know, for many people who have heard about witnesses somewhere, they know that witnesses practice ostracism, that someone is excluded, and they don't maintain contact with such a person. Well, you weren't excluded, were you? So where does this ostracism towards you come from?

[00:01:44]Honestly, I still don't know, I don't have an answer to this question, because I only know that they did it on purpose, because one sister, years later, said that they did it on purpose, that the whole congregation didn't greet me, you know? I could be standing with my real sister and talking to her, and someone could come up to this, my sister, and say, hi, how are you, maybe you could come over? And I'm standing next to it and I'm not there. Just such an empty space. Do you remember a moment that had the greatest impact on you?

[00:02:18]Impress is a bit of a bad word.

[00:02:22]Maybe it hurts when you go to the gym and they ignore you.

[00:02:26]This was still at the beginning of this, because over time, no matter how it sounds, I got used to it a bit, and I had, let's say, my own pattern for it, because at the beginning it was like I go to a meeting happy, but my mood immediately drops, I feel like crying, I don't want to go. Because I come, I can approach someone, greet them, and they turn away from me.

[00:02:47]It was like, you know, at the beginning when I came, I was like, what's going on, what happened, you know? Well, because these are people who have known me since I was a child, because I was there since I was a child, you know, they saw me running under the table, and suddenly they turn away, they don't even want to say hello. That was awful.

[00:03:06]You know, when I think about this situation, we're kind of talking about it in a light way today, right?

[00:03:14]And you also talk about it with a smile, because you have to accept it somehow, but at that moment it was definitely much more painful.

[00:03:22]And if it were one person, you might think, I don't know, someone got angry at you, you looked at them the wrong way, they got offended, and here we're talking about a kind of systemic ostracism, more people.

[00:03:36]Mhm.

[00:03:38]And I don't know if it was that everyone in the congregation turned away, or just some of them.

[00:03:43]You know what? I think it was 95%, if not a little more, because only a few people could say hello to me there. I think you could count on your fingers how many people there could have approached me, said hello, as if everything was okay, who weren't affected by what others said, because I also had a friend like that, she knew me there too and she stayed at our house, lived there for a while, she even once told me how she defended me from those who started saying something about me and she defended me. It was a handful of honest, sincere people who seemed to still be talking to me and could say hello. But most of them, like 95%, I did n't exist for them.

[00:04:24]You know, I'm curious about this thread because, first of all, it seems unnatural to me, but it shouldn't have a place in any community.

[00:04:37]Basically, ostracism is something that causes physical pain. in a person it is not just that someone will be sorry. This is researched and measured, but my point is that it doesn't even apply to Jehovah's Witnesses.

[00:04:52]If you are with them, then they are theoretically, not, as the saying goes, wholeheartedly behind you, right? And here we have something that you are the witness of and you are the experience of. I can't find an explanation other than the one that comes to mind as to why this is so.

[00:05:10]I know different churches, different stories, and maybe I'll tell you, and you'll tell me if it fits what happened in your church, that there's often some charismatic elder who, you know, maybe a lot, to whom everyone listens because he has some position, sometimes it's money, but most often he just has a lot of persuasive power. If he said it, everyone follows it. And that 's the only reason I think this could happen, even though the organization officially says it should n't.

[00:05:51]Well, no, no.

[00:05:53]This was not the elder's fault.

[00:05:57]It started with one sister who was a pioneer and she gathered a group of people around her.

[00:06:05]My mom thinks so and some of the people I've told about it, you know, you know, this female jealousy thing, I don't know what it was. she was 10 years older than me, I was 15, I didn't even think about boys, and she was the kind of person who gathered only boys around her, she needed attention, and I, let's say, grew up with boys and could talk to them about various topics, laugh there, an open child. And a teenager, you know, maybe something went wrong in her head, that boys, that she gets along so well and so on, and because of that she simply started fighting with me.

[00:06:51]Well, if you were both adults, it would still be understandable. Some kind of jealousy appears in people. But here we are dealing with a young girl, a teenager. Because you say that there are no boys in the church and it is often the case that the boys are more interested in the girls in the church than the girls are interested in the boys in their heads, because yes, yes, that's what it seems to me.

[00:07:17]Rather, of course, these are just my assumptions, but what I mean is that young sisters in the congregation tend to think more about moneymaking. Yes. I don't know if this is right.

[00:07:28]At that moment my dream was a remote control car. You know, I liked cars. I dreamed of having a car like that because it was expensive, we couldn't buy one, and it was my dream, not some guys' or anything else's.

[00:07:47]We will return to this moment in your life and this growing up a bit in the grain in Ukraine.

[00:07:50]However, I would now like to jump ahead a bit to a moment that is a bit difficult. War breaks out in Ukraine, you lose your job, and you find out that your mother is trying to take her own life. There are so many things that fall upon you that you could break down, fall apart, and at such a moment it's important that someone is there to support us.

[00:08:18]Do you then feel the love that Jehovah's Witnesses pride themselves on? Do the church elders provide it for you?

[00:08:26]Not any. No one called or wrote an SMS.

[00:08:33]I found out later that the wife of the elder in that meeting I was already in, she knew about my mother, because she was also with me, you know, it was three or four months later, so how is your mother feeling better? Well, it's obvious that this person knows about it. Well, fortunately, if so, you know, is it better or not, because I told one of my sisters, she felt sorry for them, but it was also later, and this is the moment I remember, because I first found out about my mother, it was Sunday, the war broke out on Thursday, and then they released me on Monday. So it all happened in one week. So I remember that I even wrote to these people who I thought, who I thought were my friends.

[00:09:24]It was me who was simply ignored, as if I had been read. Was it that dragging on that trauma you were experiencing earlier, it was dragging on you all the time? Um, sometimes I have the impression, but here in Poland it was easier at the beginning, because then this sister who, uh, didn't like me in Ukraine came to Poland to my meeting and, to put it briefly, she made it so that no one talked to me. I was afraid of the church because it would still be a Russian group.

[00:10:03]Well, unfortunately, a lot of people from my city have traveled to the city where I live. And so it turned out that we were in the same church again.

[00:10:12]So you were in a Russian-speaking congregation in Poland. Yes.

[00:10:15]Yes. Back then it was still a group, now I think it's an okay meeting. I don't know how long, because there are fewer people there now, so how long is unknown. But oh well. For a moment I thought to myself that I don't know, maybe this treatment was partly due to the fact that it was a church in Ukraine, a slightly different mentality. I don't know, I tried to explain it to myself this way, because now this situation, well, you're in Poland, when the war breaks out, you're already there, you're in Poland, but in general you're still surrounded by people who, for example, were with you from that church.

[00:10:55]And do you have contact with brothers from the Polish congregation, or, because it probably works on the principle that this group operates under the care of such a local congregation.

[00:11:06]Well, it was working then, now it's not working as a separate congregation, but they cooperate, I still had contact with those brothers, but you know, at the beginning I didn't know Polish well either.

[00:11:18]We met somewhere there, but he also, well, it wasn't that great of a contact that they could write to me and ask how you're doing. It was more about me writing, asking, maybe there will be some dialogue, but not for long. They did n't even invite me to the ministry very strongly from that church, as... Well, as long as I was a pioneer, because I was still in Poland for the first six months, I think, and they invited me to meetings there and I could arrange to serve, but then when I left, I almost disappeared from the radar.

[00:11:54]Oh, you know, I'm asking a little about it, firstly to understand, secondly to show that it's not quite like that, that maybe Jehovah's Witnesses very often say that they are the only true organization because they fulfill the words of Jesus. By this will they know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.

[00:12:20]This is not the first time I have heard a story about this love not actually existing. And I asked if anyone was with you at the time, and it turns out that no one from the church was, but there is a theme of these evil people from the world who are still showing you support. Yes, I'll tell you, there was a moment that I do n't know how to say it, even nicely, that the world turned upside down, let's say it like that, because my whole life I was told that those in the world were bad people, that they had no love, that they would want to lie to everyone. You know, throughout my life I have had these words of Jesus, which said that they will recognize you by the love between you. And I haven't felt this love for almost my entire life, and for me it will always be love. So where is this love? Well, where? I even remember praying to God at one point, listening, maybe you don't want me to be in this organization, maybe I'm not a good fit for this one, because I don't see this love. Well, well, well, damn, well, when everyone talks at meetings, all the guards and comments are giving, you know, love, love, help, love, it's not here, and here, you know, the day the war started, I find out in the morning that the war is happening, you know, they find out at the meeting too, and who called me first, my friend, who's not a witness because he came to work, found out about the war and called me right away and what's the matter, listen, I just found out, I came back from an exam there and I found out here at work, and how are you, how are you feeling, is your family okay, you know, and that's the question. If you need help, call or write at any time, talk to me or do something else, just call. And on the other hand, you know, I wrote to my friend and silence, they read it and silence and yes, okay, and this is true love and this is this hatred from the world and at that moment, that's probably what had the strongest effect on me, that I sort of stopped being completely in this religion, in my thoughts, as if with my head, because I was simply starting to get to know the world around me. And that's an interesting thing and I'd like to connect these two threads to that moment of the outbreak of war and we'll come back to that in a moment.

[00:14:49]Okay, but first, one thing, because this friend who is calling you, this is the story related to this blablakar. Yes.

[00:14:59]Yes. Exactly. And why is this interesting to me? Because many people who were raised among Jehovah's Witnesses have a certain fear of people from outside, that for example they will do something bad to them and so on. You know, it 's also like that some people have a more anxious personality and, I don't know, they see worst-case scenarios, they won't take a BlaBlaCar because someone will kidnap them and so on.

[00:15:27]Some people don't, but if this one is brought up in an organization, it causes him to be closed off to certain experiences, to certain sensations, he goes on this blah blah ride and the purpose of such a witness will be, and let's give testimony during this. And from what you told me earlier, it kind of happened that you had the courage to make friends with strangers and something cool came out of it, and then you receive support from such people.

[00:16:03]Generally speaking, you know, I was a bit afraid to ride a blobakar, but then it worked out, it was cheaper, it took me to where I wanted to go more. And this was the kind of person we just chatted with on the way. She was an open person, calm, you know, there was no tension even in the conversation, and we started talking about work, because I was looking for another job related to IT at the time and he was working as a programmer in one company. So we started talking and actually contacted each other on Instagram because of this job, so I could send my CV there. maybe he can help me, see how it works. And then we just did it in a friendly way and I went back with him too, because I think he liked talking too, so he offered to take me back.

[00:16:54]You know, this is really cool and you see, I came to the right place. I was also afraid to go.

[00:17:00]Well, well, I was afraid. Well, I don't know, I don't know to what extent this is typical of a witness, and maybe people who are listening to this conversation will relate to it, because it interests me, because I am a bit of a person who has a fearful personality and I have to put in a little more effort to muster that courage. Eh, but it turns out that it's not just me, and it 's nice that sometimes we dare to trust that I'm going to say something that every witness will now cover their ears, to trust that the world is not that bad, right? The second thread I wanted to return to is the moment of the outbreak of war.

[00:17:51]You are already in Poland, you are in the congregation, that is, in the Russian-speaking group.

[00:18:03]War breaks out.

[00:18:05]What else do you feel then? You are a believing witness then.

[00:18:09]It hurt. What's more, it hurt that my family was there and still is.

[00:18:16]I was very afraid for them, and it hurt that I kept hearing about helping brothers from Ukraine, brothers from Ukraine, going somewhere to the border, and those brothers and sisters who already live in Poland, who are local, you know, they were pushed away.

[00:18:33]I even talked to one friend, she's also from Ukraine, and we're talking and I say: "Listen, it's kind of sad because they're shouting that we're helping brothers and sisters. I have nothing against this help, but those brothers who are local, they also need help, because they have family there, they also need some attention, maybe not all of it, but at least those five minutes. And it turns out that you write for help, but they don't even remember you, they don't pay attention to you, and you need it too. Did I understand correctly? You mean those people who stayed and didn't flee Ukraine? I'm not talking about people who are already in Poland from Ukraine, who were already in Poland, even in the same meeting.

[00:19:18]A lot of people who had, have family there. In Ukraine, but they didn't have the aid that needed to be given.

[00:19:25]And did you ever have anything like that, where you thought, I don't know, maybe Armageddon is already starting? Did you have such thoughts as a witness? I don't know, I heard, there were moments, oh, when the war started here, it was probably Armageddon, Armageddon, but somehow I didn't think about it. I was more thinking that I hoped my family was safe, that nothing would happen to them. I really wanted them to come to me, so that they could simply have a better life, and on top of that, I had additional worries, let's say, for my mother, for this job, and honestly, I don't remember ever thinking that Armageddon was coming.

[00:20:08]And I already know.

[00:20:09]Earlier, you said something like, you wondered if the congregation was n't your place, that you prayed to Jehovah, that maybe you didn't see this love, that maybe it was... but I don't know, you felt it was your fault, that you didn't fit in the congregation, or that maybe you were doing something wrong, since... Don't you feel this happiness and don't you experience the love they talk about?

[00:20:34]Yeah, right. I thought something was wrong with me. I thought maybe I'm a person who doesn't need to be in this organization, who doesn't deserve it, and I'm just here because there's a rebirth in it, you know, and maybe I'm not doing everything, or maybe I just don't deserve to be here. And I prayed about that, and why me, why are these things happening to me? Maybe you don't want to, maybe I'd better get out of this, or I have to live at all.

[00:21:02]What's the point of living then? Because I knew then how I'd get out. I have no one outside the church, no one will talk to me. Well, that's just the end of my life. Well. Well, there's no point then.

[00:21:13]You know what, it's a bit like that, you're simplifying it a bit. It's fascinating for people who were in the church and left, and probably in other high- control groups, this mechanism is similar.

[00:21:29]But what you're saying isn't so-so, you're speaking so lightly. I understand why, because I understand these feelings, that it seems to you that leaving is The end. Because that's the only truth. Besides, the words of Jesus, which the witnesses use. Lord, Lord, where will we go? After all, only you have the words of eternal life. So if not, then it's nothing. It makes no sense. Nothing.

[00:21:55]I'm curious about your experience and why this motive, that you blame yourself for why it happened this way. I don't know, maybe today, with hindsight, when you think about it, you'll find the answer. Why did your thoughts back then, or was there something you only notice today, cause you to feel this anger, this rage, that you directed it towards yourself? Why didn't you direct it then, that it was this sister who did it, that she didn't like me or something, that others were using ostraca against you, even though you were a grain of wheat?

[00:22:37]Why, even though these were external factors, did you blame yourself for it?

[00:22:47]Interesting question, because I took everything personally, because everything that went wrong, I thought it was my fault, because you know, from the beginning of my upbringing in the so-called truth, it's like this: You're doing something wrong, there are no blessings. If there are no blessings, then things are bad in your life.

[00:23:12]And I simply connected it, so to speak, that if something bad is happening to me, it's most likely I did something wrong, because after all, if I do well, I have to be happy and have what I need, or what I want. These blessings are few, and it turned out to be the opposite, and I also think that at some point the words of that sister who had just started this war had an effect, because I don't remember how old I was then, whether 15 or 16. I was hurting, and I decided to approach her after the meeting and ask what was going on.

[00:23:57]Well, following Jesus' advice.

[00:23:58]Yes, following Jesus' advice.

[00:24:02]My mistake was that before the meeting I told her I wanted to talk to her.

[00:24:07]Okay.

[00:24:08]Mom also said, why did you do that? She had the entire meeting to prepare her lecture.

[00:24:15]But we sat down in the smaller room.

[00:24:21]I still remember this large window overlooking the main hall, like an aquarium.

[00:24:26]You know, everyone sees lice. And I kind of wanted to ask what this whole situation was about. I did n't have time to ask when she just attacked me with such pressure, you know, that you know, you 're not the center of the world and that not everything revolves around you. And all these kinds of texts, you know, after which I was left speechless, I couldn't say anything because I just started crying and crying so hard, and she, you know, sat there and practically screamed at me. Others knew it. I remember my mom standing with an older one and saying this to him. So what?

[00:25:01]You see, this is a normal conversation when one person is shouting at a child. But the older one, the older ones, were on her side, it didn't help.

[00:25:11]And it's terrible. The worst thing is that it's not really clear what's going on.

[00:25:17]Yes.

[00:25:19]And you know, today you probably don't really care to find out either, because it's kind of the past.

[00:25:27]You know, it's a bit interesting, what was it all about? It was just typical curiosity, was it worth it at all, was this topic? who traveled there in their own little group, was he worth simply destroying another person's life?

[00:25:46]Especially a child, right?

[00:25:51]You know what, we'll get to your process of awakening, leaving, and these ruptures in a moment, but I'd like to return to your childhood and why it's interesting, because many of our guests shared this perspective of growing up in Poland and being a Jehovah's Witness in Poland and what it was like when we had the only true Catholic religion around us.

[00:26:19]Right? And in Ukraine, what was your upbringing like in the congregation and what was your school like? And because, you know, it was a bit exotic for us after all.

[00:26:32]Well, yes. You know what, growing up was actually quite peaceful until that period of unofficial exclusion.

[00:26:42]I was, you could say, in the congregation from birth, because my mother met the Witnesses there. Oh, God, it was '93, I was n't there yet. And she was going to a bigger city to visit her family, and at that time, it happened that there was a meeting. Some kind of international one or something? She simply ended up on a bus with only Witnesses. The whole busload of Witnesses was going to a convention. They took her there because she and my older sister were there, and she was someone who actually liked the Bible until then. I liked studying the Bible. She had a lot of questions. They kind of hooked her with questions, answers from the Bible, and somehow it all worked out, and she was one of the first to meet the Witnesses in my town, where I was born. And when she was already pregnant with me, she was an unmarried woman, I think, and a year later, an unmarried woman, and basically, because she was pregnant with me, she didn't get baptized and got baptized later. So I was born in that town, and for the moment of my birth, growing up until I was 15 or 14, it was a small group, and it was really like a family group. Everyone helped each other meet somewhere, help each other out. There were moments when, you know, you can't watch TV there.

[00:28:01]It's evil, there are some movies, it's evil, the TV is best covered with a blanket just because it looks nice, and that's it.

[00:28:10]But that would be a local view for you. Do you think it's more common, or was it something like that in other parts of Ukraine, I think it was everywhere?

[00:28:21]You know, here I remember things like that, so it was around the 2000s, I also remember situations back then where some brothers felt a little superior because of it, because for example, they had a verse in a frame on the TV, "Turn away my eyes, so they don't see what's worthless." There's this fragment, I don't know how it's translated, um, well, in the New World translation, it was like that, because it was already in the New World translation in Russian. Did you use Ukrainian or Russian in your everyday life? It was Russian, because for a long time, a very long time, it was a Russian meeting, not even Ukrainian. Then they forcibly transferred us to Ukrainian, and that's how we used it in Russian. Well, there was also the Syntaginta, older Bibles. Then they switched to this New World Translation.

[00:29:13]Yes. I'm asking, I'm asking about Poland, it was in '97 when this New World Translation was published in Polish. I don't remember. Well, I don't even remember, I don't know which one in Russian, but Russian is more popular than Polish.

[00:29:29]And it's not just Russia, because sometimes not everyone realizes that Russian is only in Russia. Yes. No, not many countries. But getting back to the fact that there really was something like that, well, no television, although you know, it was more of an overinterpretation, like let's throw the television out the window because the devil is there, but they also said that about the internet, like it's bad because it attracts bad company. Then there was the issue of social media, that no member of the governing body has an account on any social media, and maybe, you know, this process of secularization will continue, uh, with witnesses on this matter.

[00:30:09]But you know what, this school still interests me, and it's There's no such thing as religion in school, just like in Poland.

[00:30:14]In Ukraine, there's nothing like it.

[00:30:17]We don't have such a subject.

[00:30:18]Everyone simply has their own, like their parents are Orthodox and so on.

[00:30:23]Maybe someone wore crosses there because their parents gave them to them. It's like there's no such subject in religion school.

[00:30:28]Do you know why I asked? Because in Poland, it's so characteristic that Jehovah's Witnesses don't attend religion classes, so they're immediately different from everyone else.

[00:30:38]And are there situations in this culture where you're somehow different because you don't do what others, what most people do, and because of that, you expose yourself to the ridicule and mockery of your peers.

[00:30:55]How are those school days condensed? The worst holidays are the preparations for New Year's Eve, when sometimes classes, for example, our class is decorating the Christmas tree this year and I'm not going, I won't decorate, or I 'll just sit there somewhere, and some people looked at them strangely, why, because, well, because, well, they kind of knew I was a witness, but I was also a little afraid to talk. So that there wouldn't be any accusations against me or insults. I actually got through school relatively calmly, even though I was the only witness, but not entirely properly, as I understand it. So, okay, a double life, so we're talking about some sins here.

[00:31:42]Well, I recently confessed to my mom, and some of them too, that for a year or so, a safe space, no one helped decorate the Christmas tree, because I always liked all the shiny ones. And I helped a little, because everyone was pushing it.

[00:32:00]I know I was different too, because every Thursday they had this party at school and these dances, you know, typical for kids to have fun. Well, we had a meeting every Thursday.

[00:32:12]Oh, and I couldn't go. Plus, every Thursday we had cleaning at school. Each class had, when it was warm outside, we cleared the leaves, because it's like a party every Thursday for a while. Every Thursday and cleaning too.

[00:32:28]Yes. Yes.

[00:32:29]Oh, and because this school had a very large territory and it was a school associated with the treatment of children, who often suffer from tonsillitis, various lung-related issues.

[00:32:41]And what kind of school are you talking about? Primary school.

[00:32:44]In Ukraine, there's only one school, Aha.

[00:32:45]12th grade.

[00:32:46]And up to Aha. We have our school, it's a nursery. And those are little ones, like five years old. And from the sixth grade, I started school when I was five, first grade there, five years old, first grade, and you're like 12 years old in that school.

[00:33:05]Now it's 11.

[00:33:06]So, children start school at different ages.

[00:33:08]Well, sometimes someone goes at seven if their parents decide, but five years old is generally first grade. And then the first four grades are like little kids, so they don't really bother them much in those schools yet, and then we had a celebration there, I think, the transition from fourth to fifth grade.

[00:33:31]Then there's ninth grade, when you can go to what's called high school and learn a trade there, and you can go to 11th grade, and then you finish that secondary school, I think, or something like that, and You can go to university.

[00:33:52]Okay. So, you're just stuck with the same people for 12 years?

[00:33:58]Yes. Unless you're going to a different school, because for the first four years I was at one school, then to the other because I was sick so often, they sent me away.

[00:34:10]I remember, I was terribly stressed.

[00:34:12]These changes were more frequent here.

[00:34:14]See? Well, I was there when we had middle school, so after sixth grade, I had three years of middle school, then high school, and for example, Sara also went to music school, so part of it was three years at one school, then another, then another, so there were a lot of changes.

[00:34:33]Okay. I thought when I said, "Tell me about your sins and a safe space," I thought you were going to come out here with some cigarettes or something, or something else.

[00:34:44]And you with the Christmas tree.

[00:34:46]Wait. Well, the main sin was that at the beginning of school this year, we didn't have a sort of all- class meeting, and they were marching out with the Ukrainian flag.

[00:34:59]There was a march with the flag. Everyone stands for the anthem, hand to heart, and four people carry two flags. And I think it's been bothering you for years that I was marching with that flag. Why did you do it?

[00:35:16]You felt it was wrong, but they did n't praise you for it, because I was good at marching. My march was good. I got good grades, though, and they told me I was doing well. And you know, I liked it so much that they praised me, after all, that I was only afraid my mom would see it, because all sorts of parents would come. Luckily, my parents didn't come to something like that.

[00:35:43]But there was such a fear that someone would tell my mom that your daughter was there with the flag.

[00:35:50]But you were afraid, afraid that your mom would see. And did you have this inner conviction that Jehovah saw it?

[00:35:57]Yes. I was so ashamed. Then I prayed terribly, saying, "I'm sorry, Jehovah," and then I did it again.

[00:36:05]Well, it was really tiring for me, too, you know, it was also a struggle, but They praise me for it. I finally get some attention, at least in the sense that people like what I do, and then they don't. And so, you know, first I do it emotionally, because everything's great, everyone's watching, praising that it's going so well, and then the emotions subside, and so, God, Jehovah, forgive me, and I cried, and oh, did you have anyone you shared with that you were doing this, that you were leading such a double life, or did you just keep it all to yourself? I always kept everything to myself.

[00:36:44]Here in this whole story, we're leaving dad out. And wasn't dad a witness?

[00:36:47]No, he's still not a witness, and he's a very nice person.

[00:36:52]Oh, no, you didn't feel the need to tell him, or were you afraid dad would tell mom?

[00:36:57]No, I just had a certain personality, so I prefer to keep it to myself than to talk.

[00:37:05]So I doubt he would tell mom. But I do n't know, I somehow didn't feel like maybe telling dad that, just because I could. So what? And nothing.

[00:37:21]Hey, do you remember, because my mom was still a witness, well, when you were pregnant with you, even before you were born. I kind of wanted to ask about my dad's reaction to that.

[00:37:34]Perhaps you've heard in stories, or did my dad, I don't know, say, "Okay, you'll be some kind of witness there," or "And later did you see, I don't know, support it, oppose it?" My mom initially said he was against it, but I think it was also partially related to the fact that my mom's two brothers, two guys, would come to college, and because there was no one from the next town, they'd just come to study with her. And at first, my dad was angry, and I think it really worked, because some guys would come to his wife's, talk, and he'd sit in the next room, all happy. And there was also one who really encouraged my dad to study, and it even turned into a real Armageddon. My mom says my dad was like never before. That was the first time she saw him so angry that he wanted to kick his brother out, simply because He says something to Dad, that it's Armageddon, that you're going to die. And Mom says, "This brother runs out, puts on his shoes, goes out the door, closes it, then opens it, and you're going to die in Armageddon. Close it, run to Dad." My, I can't imagine her dad being so angry, but Mom says his eyes were shining, he told them never to come again. But then he just started getting used to it a bit, because his sisters started coming too. Later, he even boasted that Mom had changed, that it was only with him, because they also told stories about how at the tables where they gathered with friends, someone would say that someone had cheated on their wife, or that their wife somewhere wasn't cooking, and mine always did things like that in front of me because she was a witness. Well, in short, he preached, but unofficially.

[00:39:25]Okay. And for years later, he sometimes participated, I don't know, for example, in the souvenir, he would fall asleep. At the souvenir. Mom said that a few times. She took him. He was just sleeping, started snoring, and they said no, better not.

[00:39:39]So, obviously, because he'll die in Armageddon. Well, even if he's asleep in a souvenir.

[00:39:44]Well, what about you, but years later, because that brother who was shouting so much, no, because he was going to Russia, probably to earn money, and he was building a house. The eternal construction of this house, as far as I remember, how much he built, and once he came to visit us and we had a chat. I said, "Listen, you're putting so much money into this house, aren't you afraid it'll burn down in Armageddon?" He simply took revenge on him. And he just stood there, not knowing what to say.

[00:40:15]Okay.

[00:40:16]You know what, it's interesting, it's interesting how you talk, I try to translate it into our relationship here, and it's like what I know. So I wanted to ask about something else, because you're baptized at 12.

[00:40:39]Yes, 12. So you're somewhere in that age range. Fifth grade, more or less, because that's how I'm counting. Sixth.

[00:40:46]Fifth, sixth. So why did you decide to be baptized and then do it secretly from your mom?

[00:40:53]Mom is still angry that the elders.

[00:40:55]I thought you'd say your mom still doesn't know. No, your mom is still very angry that the elders allowed something like that. Um, generally, I wanted to give her such a gift, but the main reason I wanted to get baptized was that my friend from the meeting who was there probably a year older than me, he just had to be baptized.

[00:41:16]He had to, he had to, because we were baptized at one of the meetings. I found out that he would be taking all the questions, that he came there and would be taking all the questions at this meeting. Yes.

[00:41:27]Damn, why can't I take it when he can? I want it too. So I went to the elders and said that I wanted to be baptized. So, at that moment you made the most important decision in your life, as witnesses say. He's clinging to the word that he had to, or do you mean, I don't know, someone forced him, or just no, no, in the sense that he was planning to get baptized.

[00:41:50]So it's a matter of translation. Yes, yes. A matter of translation. Eh, okay.

[00:41:54]Motivation. There are two interesting threads here, because one is your motivation, the other is that your parents don't know.

[00:42:05]Yes.

[00:42:06]And I often hear that baptism is the most important decision in life, but no one, we don't baptize children, and here we're even dealing with something that happens without the parents' consent, although they'll say that my mother found out about it right before the baptism, when I was packing my things for the meeting, I packed my swimsuit there, and she asked: "What do you need it for?"

[00:42:31]Now imagine that she tells you: "No, I do not agree to you being baptized." It's unthinkable for me because the pressure is so great. What will they think of her as a mother.

[00:42:42]Two, you've already gotten involved in this, so you have to, because you, as a child, don't understand why yet, because you want to, because that other one and your friend from church or your friend, your acquaintance, it sounds as if you were already adults, right? What?

[00:42:59]Well, yes. a friend, well not even a friend, just another kid.

[00:43:03]Another kid is getting baptized too, so I'm getting baptized too.

[00:43:07]I told you earlier, before this conversation, that these motivations intrigue me a bit, because, for example, I was baptized because I liked another girl from the congregation and she was baptized, she was a pioneer. I thought to myself that if I wasn't baptized, she wouldn't want me, because don't be unequally yoked. Well, you can't.

[00:43:30]I was 13 then, and when I was baptized I was 14.

[00:43:33]After all, you were a bit older than me.

[00:43:35]That's why I said that the boys were more interested in girls than the girl was in boys, because she wanted to be a pioneer, and I, you see, I was already thinking about getting married.

[00:43:45]Well, well, yes, you're right.

[00:43:48]And that was my motivation.

[00:43:50]Well, you know, in the meeting there was also a constant talk about getting baptized, getting older there, so that you could pioneer more into the ministry there. Back then I really liked going to the service, because, you know, the children are going, who would say no to a child?

[00:44:04]Everyone at my place took these publications, all these guards, buklet and always oh thank you, thank you. I remember once, buklety were said.

[00:44:13]Buklets. Well, somehow small treaties happen.

[00:44:17]About treaties. Well, they changed the names. There were treaties, then some booklets and I can't keep up anymore.

[00:44:24]It's just my curiosity. I like the ones like this, like No.

[00:44:27]Well, there was one time in the service with one of my brothers. I went into service and started preaching to the lady. She, oh thank you, you are so nice. I'll take it from you.

[00:44:38]If he were talking to me, I wouldn't take it, but I'll take it from you. You know, so you played, they take it from me. Cool, everyone. I can pioneer here. Well, well, praise. Oh god, that's cool. And that's when you'll also be encouraged to take up pioneering service there. Then I will be able to spend some love hours, and you know, they will announce my pioneer service at the meeting, and everyone will hear there that I am trying here. And additionally, Hey, so you had something like this: if I become a pioneer, I don't know, they'll notice me, maybe I'll be different, maybe.

[00:45:13]If I become a pioneer, I will call it a bit imprecisely, but my position in the congregation will be better.

[00:45:21]But before that, you carry this flag here, you march. Did you think that if I became a pioneer, I would make amends to God for the sins I committed?

[00:45:31]I wore the flag after my baptism.

[00:45:33]Okay.

[00:45:35]I had been carrying the flag for a few years until I finished school and I was already a trained witness. Well, yes, 12 years in total, and for a long time, well, back then, that's how it was done, I was a pioneer, sometimes I took this pioneer, this pioneer, this pioneer for 50 hours, about a month, it was hard, but at school, I carried the flag, then when I was baptized and participated in various... And how do you look at that baptism today?

[00:46:03]Well, you know, I've summarized this motivation a bit here. Um, you wanted, I don't know, because this friend wanted, do you feel today that you were the person who was fully aware of the decision he was making?

[00:46:17]No, not at all. Now I think that children should not be baptized at that age because you don't know what's going on there, you don't know where it leads.

[00:46:31]Yes, okay, because they take it there, they encourage it there.

[00:46:34]Cool, cool. There they will congratulate you on your baptism. I remember when I was baptized, the gathering was in an open stadium, you know, sunny, hot, and I was here in the pool, the water was so nice, everyone was jealous. So what? Well, they congratulated me and that was it. And this child will do it more for attention, either because they say so, because they tell you to do it, or because I will have more attention. But overall it's not a conscious choice that you know what it involves. Exactly. Was there anyone who made sure you understood the burden of this decision?

[00:47:12]NO.

[00:47:14]Even the older ones who asked about me, it was a question, well, they knew the answer to that question and they didn't ask if you were sure or anything, right? It was just a question, an answer, and a few times, I think they refused me, because there was a question about blood that I couldn't answer, so I prepared myself and went again. But if you compare it to my sister, for example, she had to know every verse in this question, in this book, no, because I don't remember how many questions there were, and they asked her to know every verse by heart, and she learned these verses by heart. I was so relaxed that I just wanted her to get baptized.

[00:47:55]Well, yes. Well, now sit at this meeting for two hours and listen to a five-year-old child and he didn't like it that I, you know, was just doing this with my legs, that I was sitting there but my legs were moving because, well, I have to get this energy out somewhere, no, and he told my mother to hit me.

[00:48:14]Who said that?

[00:48:15]Older. Wait. The church elder told your mother that because the child was swinging his legs, you should spank him, then he would sit nicely in the meeting. To be polite. I didn't run around the room, nothing. I just sat there and my legs were moving. Yeah. Well, like a child. Well, what can you expect from a five-year-old child who has to sit for two hours. And after all this time, my mother is now very sorry about it. She regrets terribly that instead of talking, she sat down.

[00:48:42]But she didn't beat you before?

[00:48:44]No, I don't remember that. I was too little, but she didn't hit my sister for that, you know, my sister was a very calm child, so she didn't need to be hit somewhere. She was like that, wherever you leave her, wherever you put her, she lies there, but with me everything was the other way around. And she was given such a scolding that if I were to listen, I would have to be beaten.

[00:49:05]And I was beaten very often, very much, because, you know, it didn't help much. How persistent I was and I even remember a story when I was, I don't know, maybe 7 years old and we did n't have a classroom at that time and we rented a room with desks because there was a university there or something like that.

[00:49:27]Well, I did something wrong and mom let me get out of it. I took this desk and you know, there was such silence in the room, this desk, well. Everyone saw it and finally my mom took me out of some bush somewhere and picked it up. I received the news.

[00:49:42]I went back into the room and said, "They were just telling me these people from the meeting." She said, "Ala," I came in and her eyes were full of tears but none of them were leaking. She was so, you know, she took it up. I endured it, but it was simply standard, meaning everyone, everyone, everyone knew that my mom was dragging you out to beat you. And no one reacted, yet everyone approved of this behavior because my mom had straightened you out. To discipline children to make them obedient, and at home we had this white, varnished, wide belt, you know.

[00:50:20]And when I saw that my mother wanted to hit me, I would either hide the belt and then get hit a little more than usual, or over the years I had this method, because we had a chair that stood in the corner and I would hide under the chair so that when my mother hit me, I wouldn't be the one who got hit by the chair. Well, a little less.

[00:50:43]Yes.

[00:50:45]You know what, this really moves me. I know that now speaking like this is a bit of a joke. It's a pity that Sara isn't here, because Sara would have explained well how this mechanism works at this point, but perhaps she or one of the listeners will add it in the comments.

[00:51:05]However, when I listen, I know how much pain and grief there is in it, because I myself experienced violence at home.

[00:51:15]And what I remember, I won't say that if my dad wasn't a witness, he didn't beat me. When he stayed, he started beating. But in my mind as a child, a teenager, it was like this, when I became a witness, it intensified.

[00:51:36]I remember situations where, before I witnessed it, I was actually being beaten very severely, I wouldn't call it beating, I was just being abused, no. What I remember is that it intensified when he became a witness. it was curtailed by my mother, who, in a kind of, I don't know, despair, sometimes beat me, but it was curtailed because it didn't hurt me anymore. I was already big. When I was, I don't know, 13 or 14 and she took a belt and wanted to hit me, it made me laugh. I remember that I probably reacted like that once, I laughed at her, even though it hurt me, but I laughed at her, I said: "What are you doing?" Yes.

[00:52:29]And then I guess it was over.

[00:52:31]However, my father was a strong man who, even though I was a boy, still used violence and I was somewhat defenseless in this matter.

[00:52:47]Well, you see. My dad wasn't a witness, but in my entire life he only hit me once, and not so hard, when he was angry, but just out of emotion, you know, because he pierced his finger, and I made that sound and it seemed kind of funny, and he kind of slapped me in the face, but then he apologized profusely, and he'd never hit me like that in his life.

[00:53:11]For me, I remember it hurt the most when, you know, at home my mom would beat me with this belt, and when I went to college with her, she would study the Bible with someone and tell me how to deal with children, because then a publication came out that you have to talk to your child, talk, explain, and you know, and she, I'm sitting next to her, she says, well, if your child does something wrong, talk to them, why did they do that, so I'm sitting there like that, stop, I mean, you can talk, why is she beating me at home? And that was for me, at that moment, I remember it was terrible. I couldn't listen to it, because listen, mom, and you do it differently at home. Is that what you told her?

[00:53:51]No, that's what she said in her head. This is what I find unpleasant in life.

[00:53:55]Well, now my mother is very sorry for behaving like that, because she says that back then she was really just listening to the advice from her elders, she believed them, and I regret it very much. Well, I said that, well, it was what it was, but at least some memory of how I hid that belt remained bittersweet. Well, that's an interesting thing, and I mean, I have very ambivalent feelings, because on the one hand, I'm glad you said it, that it resonated, and at the same time, I'm so sorry that you experienced it and were able to talk about it, that this experience is not yours and it's really very sad, but I hope that the fact that we're talking about it openly, that the fact that children in Jehovah's Witnesses congregations experienced violence, today it's definitely less, is thanks to people like you, for example, how you're talking about it today, what we're doing here, other former witnesses, especially those who know what it was like and that there's a conspiracy of silence. Yes. I remember it sometimes happened that during a meeting, an elder would come out and come up to the podium and tell us how the Bible says to discipline a child and that it's okay to slap him, because then the child is obedient and the Bible talks about the source of discipline. For me it always worked the other way around.

[00:55:35]Well, you know, this narrative of the watchtower was changing even when I was a witness, that is, 10 or 12 years ago, and it was already visible that the watchtower was not saying "hit the child" but was starting to write about such upbringing in love.

[00:55:56]talk, explain that the horn of discipline is not entirely literal, but perhaps it is some kind of metaphor, and when analyzing these articles, I often said in conversations with other brothers in the congregation : "Well, from this you can't conclude that we should beat children."

[00:56:18]And I was such a promoter of not hitting children. I told others and the elders in the church said that I had apostate views.

[00:56:30]You understand? My deviation then as a believing witness was that I convinced others based on an article from the Watchtower.

[00:56:38]No, the governing body does not allow hitting children. It's like always when you stand out with something, you're the one who's bad.

[00:56:46]When Sara left, they said she left because her father didn't beat her. If he had beaten her, I heard in one lecture, she would still have been a witness.

[00:57:01]Listen, he beat me, my mother beat me. It didn't help.

[00:57:05]Me too.

[00:57:07]I'm leaving, my mother is leaving, and my sister is leaving, and my mother is just stressed because she beat me, and she's just crying, saying she's sorry, and crying, saying she's sorry, because that's what I'm saying, although, I won't lie, it helped me a little with some things.

[00:57:22]I learned to sit in a meeting. When I went to school, my dad said: "Well, it's good that you went to that meeting with her." Well, maybe he didn't know much about this beating, but at least at school I could easily sit through those 40 minutes. That was a plus, but it didn't help to stay in the so-called truth.

[00:57:45]You know, such violence causes us as children to develop certain mechanisms and to somewhat suppress our feelings, but sometimes some people wonder, well, if he has DHD, he can sit, because we are afraid of certain things, so we are, we have to adapt to the environment we live in, which sometimes poses a real threat to life, because such situations also occur.

[00:58:17]The elders in the congregation had a very strong influence on how you experienced violence in this case. But there is also a theme in your story where your clothing is monitored and what you wear is commented on. Have you experienced What are you experiencing in this matter? Do they try to humiliate you for how you dress? Should you control the fact that you cannot dress in a certain way? What was that all about? Well, that was it, I remember, that was it too