Multiple Paths, One Asset: Spend, Borrow, or Hodl? | Bitcoin 2026

本站添加: 2026-05-06

[00:00:00]Let's go. You guys have brought a bit of the crowd in. Um, this is going to be a fun panel. You guys, like Jack at Strike and Miles at Cash App and Square, you're kind of pushing the Bitcoin for payment side very strongly right now. And I think we should take a step back to start off with, Jack. Like, Bitcoin has had this dominant narrative over the last few years of being a store of value, but to me, Bitcoin is freedom money and it has to be used as money.

[00:00:25]Like, why do you see that as such an important thing? Uh, well, rule number one when you're on a panel is you don't ask the moderator questions back, but I'm going to break it. I think when I was thinking about doing the panel, I think you got to define money. I think a lot of the debate and a lot of the controversy is because people have different definitions of what money is.

[00:00:46]I have my own. I'm happy to go, but I'm more curious firstly to define money before we understand why or why not you should be using it a certain way. So, I'm gonna answer that question with another question.

[00:00:59]>> Let's go. But, so, Bitcoin is money.

[00:01:01]Like, Bitcoin already works as money, but people aren't really using it as money as much as I would like to see.

[00:01:06]So, like I' I've traveled all over the world like doing the podcast, I I've been to developing countries, and that's where I've seen Bitcoin actually being used as money. Um, but I think in the West, we see it as this like store of value thing. And so that's what I mean really when I say when is Bitcoin going to be become money is like when is Bitcoin going to be used as money by people as in to buy things like when when are people going to go out and spend sats not dollars.

[00:01:28]>> Yeah. So I so my definition of money to be super succinct or at least I'll try.

[00:01:34]I never am but I'll try. Um money is uniquely the market good that you don't consume.

[00:01:41]That's it. So if you Danny grow bananas and I have apples and we want to directly exchange bananas for apples, that's called the coincidence of wants.

[00:01:50]You coincidentally want what I have which are apples and I coincidently want what you have which are bananas. Now if you're growing bananas and I want some of your bananas and you don't want my apples, well I'm shit out of luck. What do I do? Well, you want blueberries. So I go find someone who has blueberries. I exchange my apples. I now have blueberries. I go, now what was the money in that scenario? It was the apples. I use the apples to transmit value. And so for me, money is the market good. I don't live in it. I don't eat it. I don't fly it. I don't drive it. So when people use real estate as money, I think that's bad money, right?

[00:02:27]So Bitcoin to me is perfect money. I can't wear it in a rap video. I can't put it in jewelry. I can't eat it. I can't live in it. I can't fly it across the ocean. It's a market good that's perfect for allowing me to save and then later exchange the value I've created. So the two use cases in my opinion for money are saving and then later exchanging. Why is the exchange part in the west lesser used than in other I think things like Gresham Law like for strike payments for us are way more popular in some of the emerging markets. lending for us in the United States is the biggest product we have and it's not even close. And I think things like uh Gresham Law are going to naturally play out. Um so I don't know if that answers the question, but I I I don't I don't I don't know if using money implies you need to spend it. I have a personal opinion of why I want that to happen and why I inevitably think that will happen, but I don't think it's a violation to use Bitcoin with like a line of credit or a loan and spend the depreciating debasing shitcoin dollar.

[00:03:35]>> Yeah. No, that does make sense. And you you did at least partially answer the question cuz like holding Bitcoin is still using Bitcoin. Um, but Miles, like you at both Cash App and Square have done tons to try and push this forward as a I guess maybe currency is a better word, as something that people are using in exchange for goods. And Square rolled out Bitcoin payments to every merchant in America, which is absolutely amazing.

[00:03:55]I need you to bring that to uh to Australia. But like with this, let's go. Let's go. um with this I think there's um in my opinion there's always been like a chicken and egg problem with this where like I I've seen restaurants and bars and and things like that in my in my city put the Bitcoin accepted here sticker in and then over time people aren't really using it cuz it requires a Bitcoiner to go out and basically sell Bitcoin to these merchants and try and explain why it's good money. Um like how do you see that chicken and egg problem in what you've done?

[00:04:29]>> Sure.

[00:04:31]So at Block, one of our company missions is to make Bitcoin everyday money. And I think in implied in that is the title of Satoshi's original white paper, peer-to-peer electronic cash. And so maybe we're biased because we run a consumer app and we run a large merchant app, but I think that payments use case feels embedded in the original mission of Bitcoin uh to us at least and embedded in the foundational premise of our company as well. And I think the title of this panel is probably it's a little it's not not rage bait is an exaggeration, but I actually don't think there's that much of a debate here. I think Jack and I both agree that that's a really important use case, the payments one, but it's one that's going to take the longest to achieve.

[00:05:24]>> It's to me it's the one of the like maybe the hardest thing in the world to overturn and put in place a new global financial system. And I think us as Bitcoiners, while we're low time preference a lot of the time, interfacing with the community sometimes it's like, "Hey, come on. Come on guys, make it happen. Make it happen. And it's something that's going to take a long time. And we need to be really deliberate and intentional about how we're doing that. And so we didn't launch Square payments for many, many years. Even though people on Twitter or when I first joined Block almost 9 years ago, people were asking when are you guys going to do it? When are you going to do it? But I think we need a certain saturation point of enough people having Bitcoin wallets of the infrastructure being in a strong enough place and also the broader cultural and regulatory and the like the whole broader situation.

[00:06:18]It's not something that we're we can do just overnight. And so I mean I I Jack and I go really far back to be honest. Like I there's many years where it was like you, me, Odell, Marty pretty much shouting into the void on Twitter alone. And um I want to bring up kind of like the origin story of Strike that we talked about at the end of last year for the first time in in many years, but at the end of 2019, you reached out to me um because we were buddies and you were working on Zap I think at the time, but we wanted to do this collaboration where we pull from the linked bank account in Cash App and we send a lightning payment. And I mean that was a very ahead of its time concept. And that's essentially what formed the foundation of Strike. And congratulations on all your success. I'm so glad that you ran and did that independently. But I think I think payments is kind of core to your to your mission as well and your ethos.

[00:07:21]And so I don't think there's too much of a debate here. I think in the current reality, one of the products that we're seeing really take off right now is using that kind of original strike uh vision of spending your dollars over the lightning network. And what that means on Cash App right now, when you walk up to a Square merchant and you scan the Bitcoin QR code or we just launched Tap to Pay, which everybody should go try out today or tomorrow. Um, because we're really trying to make the payment experience as seamless as possible, as good as Apple Pay. But when you do that from Cash App, you'll get the option of paying with your Bitcoin balance or paying with your dollar balance. And we've seen an explosion of adoption of using that dollar balance because there's no taxable event. You you don't burn down your your stack at all. And for the merchant, it's the same thing.

[00:08:12]They receive Bitcoin. There's 0% processing fees. And for me, it's a really interesting primitive for the future because currently within Cash App, you need to be a Bitcoin user to have that optionality. But you can imagine a world in the future where whatever every every single month there's like 55 million people using Cash App that aren't using Bitcoin. But you can imagine a world where those customers can scan that QR code. They can pay with their dollars without even having to think about it.

[00:08:43]The merchant receives the Bitcoin that they want. There's no Visa in the middle and there's no transaction fee for the for the merchant. And so all parties kind of win there. And um it's it's something worth thinking about. It it feels like a really strong rail for the future. And what I love is that it keeps Bitcoin in the mix. It keeps Bitcoin moving and giving it that velocity, which I think I truly believe. I think Jack truly believes that we need to keep it moving. We need it. We need it acting like peer-to-peer electronic cash in order for it to stay relevant and for us to win in the long term.

[00:09:16]>> Let's go. Um, I think one of the the really interesting things that I've seen and only quite recently really like strike strike and zap before that have been pushing this Bitcoin as payments thing and obviously Block have as well. Um, but it feels like a lot of things have come together over the last few weeks.

[00:09:32]Um, I saw David Marcus' announcement today with LightSpark which is awesome.

[00:09:36]Are we moving from a world where like to pay in Bitcoin was always kind of a hack? Like you could do it but it it required there was a big barrier to entry. it was a little bit hard to everything kind of falling into place and the world being ready for this now.

[00:09:49]>> Uh I think so, but I I I I don't know if I'm repeating myself, but I think it's it's the challenge is not technology.

[00:09:58]I really don't think now famous last words, right? So, there's some developer out there like you, but um I don't think uh the the story of humanity is engineering a better world. uh we're good at making the world a better place and we find our way. I'm not worried about that part. The difficult thing in getting payments adoption for Bitcoin is actually consumer behavior.

[00:10:23]>> You know, these card networks have all of us uh right where they want us. People use their their MX card, their Chase Sapphire card because they get free flights, airport lounges, Napa Valley wine, cash back. And the way that works is they charge the merchant 3, four, 5% and then they share that with the consumer. So they're effectively holding merchants hostage and bribing the person at checkout to use their option instead of Bitcoin. And then you also have a currency that's being actively debased and actively abused to bail out awful government decisions. Uh and so of course people are going to elect to get rid of the worse money as opposed to the better money which is Gresham's law. So I actually think it has more to do with human behavior than it does. And so the idea that Miles and I are working on that the 2019 idea that I had, it came from uh me trying to understand why Bitcoin was better than gold. believe it or not. And the reason Bitcoin is better than gold is because Bitcoin is uniquely both a monetary asset lowercase B. It's a bearer instrument. It's a commodity, right? But it's also a monetary network, uppercase B. What's the gold monetary network? There's no, it's us. My human legs are the gold monetary network. The gold monetary network is if I need to get gold to Nigeria, I better take my ass to the airport. That's what the gold monetary network is. and and Bitcoin was both. It was able to achieve transaction finality without me having to deposit it to the government, which gives me an IOU. And in 1971, they said, "What's yours is no longer." And it was the this monetary network idea. And I was like, "Holy crap." And this was 2019. I was however many years old. And I said, "Wait a second. So I can the equivalent of throwing a gold bar from here to Nigeria in less than a second and at no cost. Well, that's kind of cool. And if the person wanted to send Naira or dollars or euros or pounds, well, they can give it to me. I'll turn it into the faster gold. I'll throw it to Nigeria in less than a second and for free, and I'll convert it back into the currency, no problem. Bitcoin's a global liquid, salailable asset. It's easy to get in and out. And so, it's this idea. My passion for using Bitcoin as payments is actually to dematerialize the chokeold that card networks and centralized entities have on our ability to facilitate settlement. That's what I want to be free and open so that a David Marcus can launch what he wants. So that Miles can launch what he wants. And ultimately as an American, what do I want when I go check out? I want all the greatest entrepreneurs in this country to compete to give me the best wallet to check out. And right now, I don't have access to the Visa Rails. I don't have access to the Mastercard Rails. They're abusing these merchants and treating them unfairly. And so, if we can use Bitcoin, this network as an open, interoperable. It does the job that Visa does. It does the job that Swift does.

[00:13:29]And we let everyone compete at the edges, drive costs down, be innovative.

[00:13:33]There'll be millions of wallets. If your favorite color is pink, if you like this, of course, why not? But right now, there's not a lot of options. You can either get a Visa or a Mastercard.

[00:13:42]That's it. So, anyway, I think it's a consumer problem. So, now if we have this network implemented, it works. How do we change consumer behavior? Do we need to give them more Napa Valley wine?

[00:13:52]If so, who's going to pay for that? Is Dorsy paying for that? I assume not. And so I think it's a good consumer behavioral thing, but the long arching vision is using the network to free ourselves of an abusive relationship with corporations that I think have created duopoly uh and open up competition and innovation to what is core to money, which is value exchange.

[00:14:13]So I could be being naive here. Um cuz airline miles are cool, but money that goes up forever is cooler. And is is one of the consumer habits that needs to change like this idea of opportunity cost with Bitcoin. Like I can go to the shop and I can spend dollars or pounds or euros or whatever and all of that money could also be Bitcoin.

[00:14:31]>> Yes. So, so I actually think it's it's a dangerous game to try and interpret in my opinion and this is where Miles and I I'm happy to debate you. I love I love Miles like a brother. So, debate or no debate, I'm I'm down for whatever. I I personally find it to be a dangerous game to try and interpret Satoshi's white paper as a particular intent or fact. Um, and I find Bitcoiners sometimes uh contradict each other. They say, "Hey, uh, why aren't you using Bitcoin the way I think you should?" And I was like, "Whoa, I thought this was about property rights. Are you telling me how to use my property?" And so I think as a form of property rights and and the other contradiction is I love when Michael Sailor borrows fiat to stack more Bitcoin, but you don't like when I borrow fiat to go to Whole Foods?

[00:15:18]What the fuck? So, I think that there's a slight contradiction there. You know, if you have access to cheap depreciating shitcoin dollars and someone's willing to lend it to you, which is a luxury service, a 100 years from now, no one's going to be willing to lend you pieces of crap paper. Um, then I I think that that's a fine use case. Um, and and it solves for a lot of the it keeps Bitcoin off the market of being sold. Um, it allows people to grow wealth. I mean, it changes lives. If you can find a way to hold an asset that's averaging 30% year-over-year, you can change you and your family's life if you could do find a way to do that for 3, four, 5 years. And so, I don't necessarily have a problem with that. I think if Bitcoin is property rights, you know, you'll find different pockets of the world finding value for different reasons. No one's wrong. It's no one's job or role to determine what Bitcoin is and why it's valuable for them. Um, so that's my broadstrokes opinion. serving a global user base. We see different behaviors everywhere and they're all right. No one's wrong, I guess.

[00:16:22]>> And I I actually don't disagree with that at all. I feel like from the block perspective, we have a bit of an obligation because we have both sides of the counter to and we have the luxury of being a diversified company where we can play the long game on Bitcoin and we don't have to optimize for short-term profits immediately because we think in the long run this is going to be the biggest opportunity to have a global payments network. most there's not a lot of companies that have that luxury and frankly I think if we weren't doing that I think it'd be it would be a real threat to Bitcoin and so I think we take a lot of pride in that but I have no problem with lending at all on the cash app side of the house uh actually across block we've originated over $220 billion in like helping out consumers in helping out small businesses and across Afterpay as well. And so there's real economic value that can come from that. And I think as we like it, I look at your guys lending business and I'm I'm jealous, you know, and like we'll probably do that shortly. And we think that's really important. But I think given where we are in the market over the last few years and feeling it feels to me like we're in the midst of this big paradigm sha change and if and if block is not doing this I think there's real danger for the world.

[00:17:52]Bitcoin is the only truly censorship resistance money that there is right now. And as we're moving into this AI world, and as we're moving into every single thing being recorded and watched and permissioned, I truly think that if we don't preserve peer-to-peer digital cash right now, it's a right that we're going to lose and we're going to lose forever. And so I take that as a responsibility to lead the charge. And the the beautiful thing about Bitcoin is it's not just us, benefiting, it's the whole community. And so Strike is interoperable, Phoenix is interoperable, and we're laying the groundwork. We're thinking on a really long timeline, and we have the luxury of of of being able to do that because we think it's the best long-term decision in the long run.

[00:18:38]But if you look if you look towards the future, if you ask any government right now, like would you if if something new came out of nowhere and they're laying down the laws and the financial laws, does anybody here think that they would like institute this concept of cash? To me, it's a relic from an earlier time and one that we need to cherish because from my view, it looks like around the world, every government wants to get rid of this. They want they want to see every payment. They want to control every payment. And I think that's a really scary thing in the AI world. And so that's that's my personal opinion on why I think it's so important. I think on a long enough time frame, it's going to pay out and it's a really important thing for human freedom in the long run.

[00:19:22]>> 100%. Um, just to quickly switch this uh over to the borrowing against your Bitcoin conversation. um Strike, you've done an amazing job there at trying to get those rates as low as possible, but they're still relatively high and I understand that there's a cost of capital for the people that are actually lending the dollars. Um but as Bitcoiners, we often talk about as being the best form of collateral ever. Like on the lender side, there's never zero risk, but risk is pretty low. Like it's 24/7 markets.

[00:19:48]You can liquidate things. Um when do you think the broader market will wake up for that and the the rates will go significantly lower? Well, I don't think people understand what how the market works. Um, it doesn't matter how risk-free the return is. Um, what matters is if I have a billion dollars, you're asking me to lend it out to get 1% return. Well, I'm better off buying a US bond. That's risk-free because those guys can print it out of thin air and they're willing to give me three and a half, four, four and a half%. And so it doesn't matter that Bitcoin is as pristine as it is. That's never going to be a disagreement for me. What matters is the market of people that for whatever reason have fiat in the first place. If you've got billions of dollars of fiat, what the fuck are you doing? So you have this weird market of call it fixed income investors or institutional investors cuz by the way, you know, Bitcoin is so niche, right? um you you think you're doing well and then you hear that Miles has lent out a quarter trillion dollars. So if you want to scale these markets and you want to lend out a lot of money, um finding capital that's saying I I could be getting 30% year-over-year on average by owning Bitcoin, but I'll forego that opportunity so that you can borrow against it. How much do I need in return for that relationship? I mean, let's use Michael Sailor and strategy for example.

[00:21:19]Michael Sailor used to be borrowing money at 0%. Do you think that he got sick of that and preferred 11, 12, 13%.

[00:21:27]Danny, do you think that he just prefers a higher number?

[00:21:30]>> Absolutely not.

[00:21:30]>> Probably not, right? He's doing it because there he ran out of people willing to give him money at 0%. And so if you're going to ask someone in the crowd, hey, don't buy Bitcoin, buy Stretch. Well, how much are they going to demand from you to take that deal?

[00:21:46]Turns out what Michael Sailor's paying is kind of what the Bitcoin lending rate is. So it's what how much do you have to pay someone to say I'm not going to buy Nvidia. I'm not going to buy anthropic.

[00:21:57]I'm not going to buy Bitcoin. I'm not going to buy really nice real estate.

[00:22:00]I'm going to lend it to you. I know it's pristine collateral, but people need to appreciate that's what the market is made up of. Ultimately, once we get into implicit government guarantees and Bitcoin finds its way, seeps through the cracks like universal acid, as it always does, and ends up conquering the inner walls of all these institutions, we'll start getting really cheap dollars from the Jamie Diamonds of the world, but we're just not there yet. And so, that's why there is so much more that I want to talk to you two about, but we're running very low on time. Um, one of the things just like from my perspective that I've seen like Bitcoin is in a bare market, price is quite low, but I've never been more bullish on the stuff that people are building. Like I think it's absolutely awesome the developments we've had over the last 6 months. Um, what a time to be in Bitcoin, guys.

[00:22:48]Maybe we'll have to do a podcast and get into this more deeply.

[00:22:51]>> Deal. Let's do it. Damn it down.

[00:22:52]>> All right. Thank you guys.

[00:22:53]>> Thanks, guys.

[00:22:54]>> Give it up for these two.

[00:23:02]Every year this community comes together to celebrate, to debate, to build what comes next.

[00:23:14]And every year the stage gets bigger.

[00:23:21]Sound money center stage. So, where do you go to celebrate the next chapter in Bitcoin history?

[00:23:31]You come home.

[00:23:34]Nashville, July 2027.