Can a Person Really Shipwreck (Lose) Their Salvation? (Calvinism vs. the Bible/Church Fathers)

Added: 2026-06-02

[00:00:00]There was a woman in our church who was the daughter of a Nazarene minister and she came up to me one time and said, "Doug, would you please preach on John 15 sometime. I'm the vine, you are the branches and then if you abide in me, if you don't abide me, you'll be taken away and burned."

[00:00:17]>> Mhm.

[00:00:18]>> Uh would you please preach on that sometime? And at the time, I was a Calvinistic Baptist and the thought bubble above my head was not on your life. I'm not >> [laughter] >> Right.

[00:00:29]>> I'm not going to preach on that. I couldn't make that fit with my the version of Calvinism that I held at the time. Same >> Well, it's tough because Calvinists love the Gospel of John where Jesus will talk about, you know, everyone that's in my hand, I will not lose. There's a lot of language that in John and they also like Romans chapter 9. There's a lot of language that they'll they'll throw into their predestination Calvinist paradigm.

[00:00:54]So, when you get into these things where it's like someone's been abiding in Christ, but then they can they can stop.

[00:01:00]Someone can actually be enlightened by Christ, baptized, be a believer and then do the unthinkable and deny Christ?

[00:01:10]Cuz this is the language of scripture.

[00:01:11]It's all I mean, St. Paul talks about his possibility of shipwrecking his faith. It's there in scripture big time with great intensity. It can be very challenging for a Calvinist.

[00:01:20]>> Because in order given the system that I had at the time, >> Uh-huh.

[00:01:24]>> I could not preach on that without twisting the text.

[00:01:27]>> Uh-huh.

[00:01:28]>> I would I would have to say these branches that are taken away were never in the vine.

[00:01:34]>> Uh-huh.

[00:01:35]>> Or it was tumbleweed caught in the branch or a kid's Frisbee that got stuck in the branch and that's what was taken away. Um but the text is very clear. I'm the vine, you're the branches and there are some some of the branches are taken away and burned. I couldn't at the time >> They're grafted into the body of Christ.

[00:01:54]Like these are actual branches in the body of Christ.

[00:01:58]But at some point in their life, they fail to produce fruit and they fall off the vine. Which, I mean, from an orchard perspective, this is very common. A farmer prunes his apple trees. He prunes his peach trees. Oh, do you know what?

[00:02:10]This branch it's producing like distorted fruit.

[00:02:14]It's producing fruit that never fully ripens. And that's that's the catch.

[00:02:16]Even in this kind of metaphor, if you know farming, if you know orchards really well, even when Jesus says a branch that doesn't produce fruit, he's not saying that there couldn't be any kind of something on it, right? He means a full out ripened fruit in which the world can partake in and taste and see that the Lord is good.

[00:02:37]So, they may have fruit that's happening, but it becomes corrupted and then eventually the branch dies. This can be challenging for a Calvinist that doesn't believe that someone can be a true believer and then fall away. When you get into the fathers, I mean, they're I mean, the dominant consensus is that when you're baptized, you're regenerated. You're not just in the body of Christ through some kind of external covenant or some kind of just external criteria. No, like you your soul has been regenerated. Like you've experienced like you have the Holy Spirit. You've been you've tasted and you're illumined. The book of Hebrews comes it talks about this. People that fell away after they had already tasted and were enlightened. That's the language of baptism.

[00:03:18]And then they fell away. So, he doesn't really want to go that direction of baptismal regeneration cuz then you do have to admit they're just full members of the body of Christ who just fell away. And they don't want to go there.

[00:03:30]But the fathers are all comfortable with that model.

[00:03:33]>> People who fall away fall away from the covenant. They're they're in covenant with God. Christ is the head of the church. Um when Christ is purifying the church such that the end of this process without spot or wrinkle.

[00:03:48]All right?

[00:03:48]>> Yeah.

[00:03:49]>> The spots and wrinkles are removed.

[00:03:52]Okay, the the fruitless branches are removed.

[00:03:56]>> Mhm.

[00:03:56]>> Uh so, as far as the elect concerned, that number cannot be increased or diminished by anything.

[00:04:03]Everyone that God has determined will be saved at the end will be saved at the end.

[00:04:08]But, there are visible members of the visible church who fall away from their attachment to Christ. But, it was never a salvific attachment to Christ.

[00:04:18]>> That right there, he is rejecting flat out baptismal regeneration.

[00:04:24]Because when you're baptized and regenerated in the waters of baptism, whether you're an infant or babe, you know, infant or adult, in the early church, they they simply saw that that is partaking of salvation. And so, he's rejecting the the massive consensus of the fathers.

[00:04:40]And they are rightly dividing the word of God. Like, they're rightly dividing the scriptures. If you look at some of the earliest fathers, they knew the apostles themselves. And that's where it's being handed So, he's departing from the fathers.

[00:04:52]This is the reality. At the same time, he realizes that if he wants to take the scriptures seriously, he has to readily acknowledge that people that fell away were part of the body of Christ somehow.

[00:05:04]So, he's kind of in the squishy place.

[00:05:06]Like, yeah, they were part of the body of Christ, but they weren't partaking in salvation. Interesting. Orthodoxy just never goes to where he goes.

[00:05:14]>> So, does an does an apostate or a reprobate church member who falls away, did he ever have any genuine connection to the Christian faith at all?

[00:05:26]>> Mhm.

[00:05:27]>> Um and I would say, yes.

[00:05:29]So, he is uh an apostate who fell away from something genuine um in falling away from grace.

[00:05:38]>> He says that there are something genuine that they fell from, but they never partook of anything salvific. A A of that just doesn't really make sense. Doesn't really come together very well. But I at least respect that he's making some kind of attempt that goes beyond your typical Calvinist scheme, which is trying to like push away certain Bible passages to the side.

[00:05:59]He's at least making an attempt, but in the end I think it falls short because he just won't embrace patristic, conciliar, baptismal regeneration, what we find in the scriptures, the fathers, and the councils.

[00:06:08]>> Assurance of salvation can never be attained by looking inside.

[00:06:13]Okay? Um is assurance of salvation is always look away to Christ. You look away to Christ. Um Martin Luther said, "You don't know if you're Christian? Well, say your prayers, man."

[00:06:24]You know Uh so >> That's That's actually kind of an Orthodox response. You know you're connected to the vine, you're abiding in Christ by actively praying, by actively partaking in the grace of the sacraments, by actively worshipping, by participating in the way that Christ has pioneered. Right? So, the book of Hebrews will say, "Christ has pioneered the way, we walk it."

[00:06:49]Ephesians chapter 2 will talk about how that he has prepared a way of good works for us to walk in.

[00:06:55]And so, that's how you confirm that you're staying in the faith is by abiding in Christ. So, it's interesting that's where he goes. Hey guys, I just wanted to share a few books with you that have left a big impact on my life.

[00:07:05]One of them is Bearing God, the Life and Works of Saint Ignatius of Antioch, The God-Bearer by Father Andrew Stephen Damick. Many people have a paradigm shift when they begin reading the letters of Saint Ignatius of Antioch.

[00:07:16]Well, this little book by Father Andrew is so helpful in navigating his letters and summarizing the key theme. So, I think you'll enjoy this book. Another book that's very popular that left a big impact on my life is The Religion of the Apostles by Father Stephen De Young.

[00:07:30]This is quickly becoming a classic. It's helped people sort of understand how the Old Testament and New Testament have a continuity [music] with the early church, the church fathers. I've also had Father Joseph Lucas on the show. I think this is going to be a classic. It just came out last year, [music] How to Read the Holy Fathers, a guide for Orthodox Christians. And it takes you through the different genres, different styles of writing by the church fathers, because you're going to read poetry and hymns differently than you're going to read Advices to Heretics. So, check out these books and more. Many of them are by Ancient Faith Publishing. All right, guys, we'll see you next time. First Christian hymnal. Dr. Shoemaker dates most of these hymns kind of 350 to 400s.

[00:08:08]Not just like a little bit of hymns that are praising the saints, but I mean like robust, complex hymns. Yeah, they're not just in Jerusalem. Like they're showing up universally. I'll be doing a mini-series, probably five or six classes by theme that show up in this.

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[00:09:02]>> The beginning of Ephesians, we read of the recapitulation of heaven and earth in the person of Jesus Christ. He unites all things in him. And then you The end of Ephesians, we read about male and female reconciled, [music] harmonized, and put in right order through the work of Jesus Christ and through the imaging [music] of the divine bridegroom in the life of the particular human bridegroom.

[00:09:25]>> This first episode is going to be free [music] to all of you, and the rest will be for paid subscribers. Seraphim, thank you for preparing this uh Bible study through Ephesians.

[00:09:44]>> Uh