Not Identifying | Ajahn Sumedho | 07.05.2026

Added: 2026-05-11

[00:00:08]Well, good afternoon, Lumpur.

[00:00:10]>> Good afternoon, John.

[00:00:13]>> Uh, well, thank you again for taking the opportunity to uh say answer a few questions and talk some dama with us.

[00:00:20]Uh, today being May the 7th, 2026.

[00:00:25]So um just following on the session that we had last time talking about the relinquishment of the body and also uh mentioning the relinquishment of the mind or identification with the mind. Uh you said that I've done that. Uh I was wondering if you could say a few more things about that uh in regards to the identification with the mind subsiding long ago with meditation. Can you talk more about that and how meditation helps with this?

[00:00:58]>> Well, like the word meditation is used for so many different things, you know, mental things. So it's uh you know the Buddha's instruction is to see the impermanence of sankaras or forms and so just by reflecting on the impermanence of thoughts or memories or images in my mind just observing how they come and go. They are very fleeting.

[00:01:38]Uh you're much aware that they they are sankaras rather than kind of give them any importance.

[00:01:48]And then you by a lot of body reflection you begin to notice that your body is is very much in the state of change.

[00:01:59]Especially at my age you very much aware of old age. in once youthful form is now an aging one. And then you ask yourself the question, who is it that observes this this changingness? Who who can what is it that can the body observe itself?

[00:02:23]and uh and of course you realize that it can't the body is and its senses are very changeable and impermanent dependent on other conditions.

[00:02:37]So you just have this insight into the second noble truth that the Buddha taught about letting go of of conditioned phenomena.

[00:02:51]So in terms of letting go uh who lets go you know who who is it that can let go of phenomena can the thoughts or memories they they just fleeting ghosts or shadows that cross consciousness and then the the senses themselves you know just my weak vision and poor hearing is is very much you realize sensory consciousness is very ephemeral, untrustworthy and changeable.

[00:03:32]And then as you realize the emptiness of thoughts and memories and images, then you have the insight into pure consciousness or the deathless So it's uh it's just a way of investigating the experience of being alive, being having a form, being told that you are the form. You know, from the day you're born, you're instructed that you are the body. And so you you grow up and you you and the society uh affirms this that you are a separate form.

[00:04:24]And um so we import emphasize personality like in my generation of Americans. It was very much the the idea of being having a personality meaning likable characteristics and uh whether you male or female how you look whether you're good-looking or not or plain or handsome or beautiful.

[00:04:57]all reinforce a sense that what you are is what you look like, what you think, what your talents might be, you know, because some people are very good at music or engineering or various other occupations that others are not. So um you you have this reinforcement of the separateness the separateness of being a separate person in a world of different people who you like or don't like or whatever. So the the whole world of of discrimination [clears throat] just by investigating thoughts, you know, you have positive ones or negative ones. You have moods that are positive or negative and they and they change according to other conditions like the weather. You know, you can see on a bright sunny morning, you feel more positive and it gets overcrowded and rainy and then you can complain about that and and uh uh but if you're the the observer, the bu the Buddha observing the way things change, well, the mind, the mental states can't watch, you know, they're they're very changeable and you create yourself by your thoughts, by your memories.

[00:06:50]So, your personality is very changeable. You know, it's it's it's uh something that has no permanent resonance. It's according to whether you're successful or a failure or appreciated or not. or we get lonely, you get lost, you you can carry grudges and for a lifetime, you know, if you're not mindful, but being aware of of the ephemeral nature of phenomena, then you lose that sense of being identified with change.

[00:07:39]And what's left is pure conscious awareness is Pluto recognizing Dharma the way it is. Dharma is ultimate reality but Dharma doesn't have any form doesn't have any characteristics.

[00:08:04]So you then but the the real what people refer to the real world is very much what they think and see, hear, smell, taste, touch and feel. So you know they the the real world is to most people the an illusory world to someone whose refuge is in dharma which has no form but it is the witness to form.

[00:08:37]So you begin to understand like dhamma is as we chant in morning and evening pujas is apparent here and now timeless well you can't imagine timelessness you know just you know the imagination try to conceive timelessness because everything that we see here smell taste touch think and feel is time bound and everything you know with space and and time you you get the arisal of forms. But is space am I just space? I you know I can perceive space with my eyes but what I can't perceive is consciousness that has no characteristics.

[00:09:36]It's it's invisible.

[00:09:40]I can see perceive forms.

[00:09:44]Earth, fire, water, and air. I can perceive space.

[00:09:49]But I can't perceive consciousness.

[00:09:54]the pure consciousness the dharma I can't perceive I has no perception so you have this word dharma which we've adopted from the palari language into English or dharma and you know we use that but what do we mean by it and so we we give it the best possible possible supreme thoughts you can create in English like the absolute or ultimate reality. But those are just hyperbolic words that taking the English language to the its most uh extreme and perfection, you know, but it's not you can't you can't perceive consciousness because that's what you are.

[00:10:55]It's like trying to look for yourself and uh you look at the body and you think, well, that's what I've been told I am and I have I'm I feel this body and it's like this and so you can perceive the body. You can perceive sensory experiences like how the eyes are are the experience our experience of consciousness but it's impermanent because the eyeball is a very delicate form like I have to have eye treatments every so often just to keep my vision from not disappearing totally or hearing smelling, tasting, touching, these can all be lost or or you know dissolve and decay.

[00:11:56]But pure consciousness dharma can't you can't perceive it, you can't define it. You can just learn to rest in it and be the pure consciousness itself.

[00:12:18]>> [clears throat] >> So as you referred to often in say in the in the chanting in the Buddhist world, we often we hear this word dhhamma and it you know we use it as like profound and ultimate and uh is it more is that a little bit misleading where potentially is it more subtle and a bit more simple?

[00:12:39]>> Well, with words you can't All you can do is point to it. It's like this.

[00:12:50]And the word bu you know the mantra in this Thai forest tradition is Buddha is witness to consciousness. It's Buddha that knows Dharma.

[00:13:05]So we use the word Buddha or Buh taking refuge in in a witnessing the way it is. Dhama is apparent here and now and timeless.

[00:13:23]And so the more you you just put yourself in the position of the witness, what'sever happening to you, good or bad, right or wrong, true or false, pleasant, painful, whatever, it's like it's the way it is.

[00:13:46]And as you do that more and more, then begins to sink in sink in that you're you're not what you've been told or what you think.

[00:14:01]You know, it was a big relief when I realized I'm not what I think I am.

[00:14:13]So I I found that a great relief because I'm a very critical person >> and I think of myself in oftenimes very critical ways as a person and as a habit you know it's a karmic habit but it's it's not You know, it's just a habit.

[00:14:42]It's an empty phenomenon.

[00:14:46]It's not who I really am. And so I know who I am now.

[00:14:59]And I'm not anything or any form.

[00:15:05]So if you and it's you know you know this for yourself you're not just adopting uh the words >> I am actually nobody no thing nothing or nobody where we were discussing being famous.

[00:15:34][laughter] So famous you have people crawling over the fence to come and see you [laughter] which we don't support and advise.

[00:15:47][laughter] [clears throat] It often seems that uh people are you know they they say practice really hard like say on a on a technique like you mentioned using the word bhau or anapana and these sorts of things but it seems that there's like a a subtle change of perspective or the way that we hold say these techniques and Buddhism in general which um which it seems what that you're pointing to in your teachings.

[00:16:19]>> Yeah. Well, there's so many teachers and techniques, you know, so they you've got to develop genres, you've got to develop mindfulness, you've got to get and or my technique is the better than the rest. And and so you you know you're filled with information from pe from our jobs who are you who you respect and but so you anything that you must do you know observe that this feeling that you as a person must get somebody is like this and so I intentionally think I have to get somebody and then then I using the that word must which is like absolutely necessary to get enlightened. I have to become enlightened through practicing hard and listening to this these these concepts that you hold about meditation about yourself about what this teacher said that teacher said.

[00:17:44]So I remember [clears throat] learning the mahasi sad technique and uh if the r watching the rise and fall of the stomach and uh the teacher poo pooed oni from watching the nostrils.

[00:18:06][snorts] So my first initial teaching was you've got to watch your belly. [laughter] which was okay, you know, was the beginning, but it was this this kind of coming from your first teacher that you that it's the only way to enlightenment is watching the belly. You begin to see that that trying to just watch your belly all the time is impossible.

[00:18:42]And then you anopani nostrils is better than watching the belly or I mean which is better which is useless you know is up to personal opinion.

[00:19:02]So anything that says you must do this or you mustn't do that, you know, you become aware of these kind of imperatives how they affect you because you're coming from a thinking that I'm an unenlightened person who has to become enlightened and then we look to teachers to guide us who we believe or assume they are enlightened. and know what they're talking about.

[00:19:35]So we tend to not see that the the kind of compulsiveness that that telling you telling you you must do something put the how you emotionally react to that particular grammatical structure >> and only you can see that you you know you can see how if I tell you you must do watch your belly Then you can at least be aware of how whether you believe that that it's the only way or whether you doubt that you know that belief is like this or doubt is like this.

[00:20:18]This is real practice. This is developing the path.

[00:20:27]It's learning to trust in awareness.

[00:20:31]And that's uh what I encourage people all the time to trust it.

[00:20:39]And these little p pins that I give out.

[00:20:42]It's the way it is. It's like this >> is a way of just observing, not judging the way it is, but it is this moment at this moment.

[00:20:53]You're sitting here, I'm sitting there.

[00:20:56]It's like this.

[00:21:00]And can you put a name to it? You know, you can try to find a word to describe the way it is, but that's not necessary.

[00:21:08]Just to trust the awareness that at this moment is like this. The what you're hearing, what you're feeling, how my words affect you is like this.

[00:21:22]And that is real ba now or meditation.

[00:21:28]Some may hear that statement it's like this almost like it's passive like there's there's nothing to do just to say uh anger is like this or unh wholesome mind states are like this. So how does this relate to right effort in in Bana?

[00:21:47]>> Well, right effort is to be the witness.

[00:21:54]This witness anger or bad moods are like this without judgment.

[00:22:08]You know, because soon as you pass judgment on it, then you're lost in the sar and the world of duality.

[00:22:20]But if you just learn to just let go, not try to get right effort or in fact right effort is absolutely no effort.

[00:22:29]It's learning to trust in your awareness of what you're feeling. Like this is an experience of feeling. You you have a form that's a sensitive form and you've got to live with it till it dies.

[00:22:46]And [clears throat] so it's going to experience pleasure, pain, praise, blame, success, failure, all these changing conditions because that's the nature of the forms.

[00:23:01]The male forum is like this.

[00:23:06]And you're not saying it's better than female form or anything, but it is the way it is. And you have to trust in your just your simple awareness is like this rather than whether it's good and bad, right or wrong, male or female, or any any adjectives or concepts you might form around the way it is. You don't have to describe the way it is. It's just just trust your awareness alone because this moment can only be like this whether you describe it or not and then it changes >> then it becomes something that seems to be a memory which is equally unephemeral and unstable.

[00:24:04]So we're using awareness almost as to witness any of these say first arrows which are which arise in our in our mind and in the effort is not to fire the second arrow and the third arrow on and on.

[00:24:19]>> [clears throat] >> You don't have to know who shot the arrow or whether it was poisonous or right.

[00:24:26]>> It's like this, >> right?

[00:24:30]>> So the the effort is just abiding in that awareness into seeing it as empty phenomena.

[00:24:36]>> Just awareness. M um and say through our through our practice say day by day uh what are what are some of the signs um [snorts] that we can see that the identification of the mind is starting to relax or to release.

[00:24:57]Well, as you trust awareness, then that's you that's the path.

[00:25:09]You're developing the path.

[00:25:12]Just trust that. And when your mind starts saying, is this really the path or am I right or is it wrong or just that's the way it is. It's doubt.

[00:25:27]Am I enlightened or not enlightened? Or am I on the path or not on the path? These are doubts [snorts] where what I'm encouraging you is to just trust that bhau is the ability to witness the way it is. It's not the judge.

[00:25:52]You're not saying you're good or bad, right or wrong because it's it's forms, you know, it's just right or wrong, good or bad, true or false. They're words. They're saras.

[00:26:12]So, you can't define dharma with words because that's what you are. You can't define yourself where you can define yourself as a person like your j and you know you use our passports and ID cards and passwords accordingly because that's a convention but it's to you.

[00:26:51]And so you you're just learning to trust puts you in a sense of [clears throat] trusting rather than trying to get caught up in doubt and worry and ambition or self-criticism or You know all the forms of like what is worry about the future? It's about you know you can imagine anything for the future.

[00:27:29]What is it you know what is climate the climate change going to do to the world and and what's going to happen to the United States?

[00:27:47]You know these are worrisome thoughts but you're aware that if you want to worry then you start thinking about possibilities of changing in the wrong way of nuclear war or more wars or climate disasters.

[00:28:11]You could imagine anything up to your ability to imagine.

[00:28:18]So the future is is really right now and you aware is just unknown. You don't know the future.

[00:28:29]It's about being here and now.

[00:28:33]And the future is imagined like tomorrow is an imagination that I'm sitting here right now and finding out what's happening tomorrow is like this.

[00:28:49]But here and now is present and true and isn't it's you know it's developing the path where practicing now to get enlightened in the future is a delusion.

[00:29:08]what's to get enlightened in the future and you know you think if I really practice hard [sighs] and uh get everything right then I'll get enlightened in the future but all of that is imagination you know in terms of the reality of here and now the future is what you imagine Because dharma is apparent here and now.

[00:29:42]It's not about the future or the past.

[00:29:49]So that's why [clears throat] to trust awareness and the word p isn't about attaching to to some idea of Buddha but of just the witness to dharma.

[00:30:10]So I say the word Buddha as as a kind of reminder of trust awareness cuz you're already dha you're you know it's not something lacking in you that you've got to get but it's something you don't notice because you're so conditioned to see yourself with forms with values with right and wrong good or bad male and female. And so it goes on endlessly, you know, how we create endless problems between race or religion or male and female.

[00:30:53]You know, you listen to the news and it's endless conflicts that will go on forever. There's never going to be world peace because the world that we create is not peaceful in its very self. It's it's imagined. It's not reality.

[00:31:13]Where peace is apparent here and now and timeless.

[00:31:21]You don't have to look for it because you'll never see it.

[00:31:28]But if you stop looking for it and learning to trust awareness, then you'll realize you're who you really are. You're not what you think or been told you are.

[00:31:44][snorts] >> So, Lumpur, just uh maybe a final question. You're often referring to Sakayai in many of your uh your talks and maybe you could say, how is Sakaya the same or different from identification with the thoughts or with the mind?

[00:32:04]>> That's what it is.

[00:32:09]It's it's the first letter and it's a very important one to to understand to really see what you think and believe.

[00:32:22]Belief is another thing we so easy to believe in things that that people tell us or disbelieve.

[00:32:35]They say it's like, "Oh, that's real, that's true, or that's false."

[00:32:40]But belief is is is a a condition that is impermanent and empty.

[00:32:53]So whatever you believe in is empty phenomena.

[00:32:59]Whether you believe in God or don't believe in God then you know both are beliefs.

[00:33:07]What is God? What do you mean by God?

[00:33:09]And then you start investigating you know what you've been told God is or that there isn't any God. This is this is you believe what maybe you prefer one view over the other but it's still operating from belief which is words and teachings given to you by somebody else where learning to trust your awareness itself is very direct very here and now and that you can trust and That's developing the path, the eight-fold path cuz then that's right understanding which is the basis for afold path perfect understanding.

[00:34:08]It's not about being right. [laughter] >> Very good, Lumpur. Well, thank you very much for uh spending some time with us today and uh we'll look forward to another session in the future.

[00:34:24]>> Yes. Thank you very much. I do.