Caller Who Struggles with LOGIC Defines GOD as Logic | Forrest Valkai & Promise

Added: 2026-05-26

[00:00:00]Let's talk now to Tim, who's been on hold for a very long time and then we'll talk to our last call after that who's been on hold for just about 10 or 15 minutes shorter.

[00:00:09]Let's talk to Tim who believes that the existence of logic and its properties prove the existence of God. Tim, you're on the line with Forrest and Promise.

[00:00:18]How you doing today?

[00:00:19]I'm fine. Thank you, Forrest. How are you?

[00:00:23]Never had a bad day.

[00:00:26]Yes, I hear you say that a lot. Good for you. Hello, Promise.

[00:00:30]Okay, before I get into my my position on logic and why I think it it proves the existence of God. I'd like to can I say something about the caller Egg from UK?

[00:00:44]Christian caller.

[00:00:45]>> if you really want to.

[00:00:47]Yeah. I think that a lot of times the atheists are trying to refute a position that's that's not actually true. So, you're really just tackling trying to tackle a straw man in regards to God's knowledge. Most Christians are taught the classical theism view which holds that God knows the past, present, and future exhaustively.

[00:01:10]And I think that the laws of logic frankly prove that to be untrue. The future hasn't happened yet. It's the aspect of time which is a change You So, do you >> You'd have to have that debate with them. We're trying to talk to you and find out what it is that you believe and see if we agree with it or not and if we think it's reasonable. So, Just want to be clear, what you also just said does directly contradict Egg's view of God.

[00:01:33]So, you and Egg should have a good conversation. Talk about whether or not God knows the future. That'd be a lot of fun.

[00:01:37]>> Right.

[00:01:38]I will going to go there. I just want to make the point that a lot of times Christians call up and they they have aspects of theology frankly that are in error and it's really difficult >> they're Christians and there's 40,000 denominations of Christianity and they're highly individualized.

[00:01:54]>> I also I think you're going to regret starting this phone call by telling us how wrong other Christians are. I'd rather you just tell us what you think and we can figure out if we are going to put you in the same category. So, let's just go there. I I know I was a Christian so I deeply understand that all of you think that each of you knows better and is a better Christian and has the better theology than the other.

[00:02:15]That's like kind of part of the whole thing is that you're the you're the one that actually knows what God really wants because the problem is he doesn't make it very clear. So, you each have to be subjectively figuring it out. So, I'm eager to hear your position, what God you believe in, why you believe this God exists.

[00:02:32]Right. I think that the laws of logic do necessarily guarantee that that God exists because God is logic.

[00:02:40]But, one last thing about about time, there's only two views. It's a rough thing to say.

[00:02:45]>> among Christians. One is that God is outside of time and the other one is that God is time and guarantees that it's it is what it is.

[00:02:54]Okay.

[00:02:55]Okay. So, the laws of logic in my opinion >> You said what I'm sorry, could you please repeat that last sentence? I'm sorry, I just don't I don't think I understood that. Could you repeat that again, please? Sure.

[00:03:05]The laws of logic prove the existence of God because the laws of logic are both immutable, irrefutable, and I believe even if evolution is true prove that the laws of logic are fundamentally primary to human beings coming on the scene through evolution that the laws of logic are are therefore transcendental.

[00:03:31]And since God is logic in my view, logic comes down to three fundamental laws.

[00:03:37]This is a a reflection of the Trinity and also teaches us about God's perfect rationality.

[00:03:45]>> Wait a second. Before we get before we get into the theology part real quick, Tim. Are you just saying that are you just saying that God is logic? Is that your whole argument?

[00:03:56]Like logic is real so therefore God is God exists?

[00:03:59]>> I can't tell if that's a an actual statement or if that's just like a kind of a summary.

[00:04:03]>> Right. I know. That's what I'm trying to find out.

[00:04:05]>> Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:06]God has three primary properties, truth, love or morality, and logic. Each of these properties each of these attributes have a trinity that support them.

[00:04:20]Truth is um eternal, universal, and exclusivistic in nature. Love or morality is what you do, how you do it, and why.

[00:04:31]And logic has the three the three fundamental laws, another trinity.

[00:04:37]So, not only are the laws of logic immutable.

[00:04:43]Okay, that and tran- that's transcendental. That proves that that God exists.

[00:04:48]It's impossible for language to have You're talking about You're describing logic as immutable and transcendental because it's this thing that's like this governing force over the uni- Well, it you you haven't said that we're governing. So, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But, like it's this thing that like is a fundamental characteristic of the universe. Nothing illogical happens in the universe, right? And I would agree with that. As far as I know, the universe is a logical place. Um but what I'm curious is what's the difference? Why are you using the word logic here instead of like some other like physics or or even chemistry, especially when you're talking about logic as a necessary predication for the evolution of humans? That would apply to literally every living thing ever, including the beginning of life which isn't necessarily evolution. So, like what why are we picking the word logic as the target here?

[00:05:40]Because they're they're provably immutable. You have to use the laws of logic to make an argument that the laws of logic don't exist.

[00:05:50]Sure, but that's not what I'm asking. I you you're talking about the laws of logic being a transcendental thing. I'm I think Let me say can we agree? Like I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about logic in terms of like the way that we reason things out, right?

[00:06:07]When we talk about logic in that way, can we agree that they're not like a physical object, right? They're just kind of the rules of reality as best as we understand, right?

[00:06:18]Right. So, then why not replace the Sure. So, then why not replace the word logic with the word physics or the word chemistry?

[00:06:31]Because they're not physical in in any way. They're non-physical realities.

[00:06:37]Right, but with because they're non-physical they're like you could I guess you could claim that they're like not contingent on anything. You could try to go down that weird, you know, what was that? That was Aquinas's whole thing. But, like the fact is we live in a physical universe and I without logic like I I can say I put logic aside for a second. I can say I'm not a logician.

[00:07:00]But, as a if I were a physicist, I can now trace back everything to the beginning of the of the universe as we know it and everything follows like a totally normal expected physical trajectory and I can take that all the way into hard determinism if I want to, right? And I can call now physics transcendental because while physical matter is surely physical, the laws of physics are not a physical thing. They're as transcendental as logic. I'm just trying to figure out why logic is like the thing you're latching onto here.

[00:07:33]Well, I think that there are realities that are that are created realities and then there are realities that are just part of God's nature like logic. God is love.

[00:07:44]The Bible says you know, God is good. God is logic. And it's just no accident that there are three fundamental laws. This this is a reflection >> Bible says God is logic?

[00:07:57]Well, no. It actually doesn't say that.

[00:07:58]It says God is love.

[00:08:00]I mean, God >> Okay. I must have misheard you. I thought you just said the Bible says God is love.

[00:08:06]Yeah. Yeah, God is God is logic.

[00:08:09]How did you reach that conclusion? It's one of the three immutable aspects of his character and being.

[00:08:20]You there? I I feel like there's like a massive jump here.

[00:08:25]And I'm trying to just hammer it down because what I'm getting what I have in my notes is that I I I understand you have said God is synonymous with logic.

[00:08:34]But, I'm just trying to follow like the the logical progression here. So, I'm just writing logic exists therefore God exists and that in then I have this huge gap and then I have and so Christianity.

[00:08:49]You know? And like I still don't fundamentally understand why we're using God as the sticking point, but I really don't understand how that then necessitates Christianity being the God claim that we know is real. So, like I'm happy to go wherever. I don't want to like try to sidestep here, but Well, let's go let's go a little bit further with this into a tangential aspect of this argument. Um there are God the God of the Bible is triune. He's Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

[00:09:20]Now, we know the Word is Jesus Christ.

[00:09:23]And he's triune. There are if God is indeed the nexus or creator of all things, you would expect to see um trinities everywhere in the physical and non-physical world. For instance, time. We got into this earlier. I wanted to say that time is what it is. That's the law of identity and it's composed of three different aspects, past, present, and future. Space is a trinity, depth, width, and height.

[00:09:50]Um let's see. Water is a trinity. That's it.

[00:09:54]But, Tim, you're we're doing this we're doing I'm going to I'm going to try to help this call go go somewhere because we're you keep adding on a bunch of stuff. So like you're really eager, I think, to get into your theology of how you found out that there's Trinity.

[00:10:09]There's three of everything, which I know plenty of Christians who don't believe that the Trinity is biblical. So and we haven't gotten there yet. We haven't even gotten to the Bible yet.

[00:10:18]We're just getting to the existence of a God. So let's stay over there and then maybe we'll get to the part where you can share some of your theology about how like therefore it's really cool that I see three of everything.

[00:10:28]We are so not even close to being able to go there yet. So I want to get back to what Forest was asking you about.

[00:10:35]I've got a a note here about numerology and how there's threes everywhere. I'm going to put a pin on that. It's all This is a a wild ride for me, Tim. This is also the first time I've ever heard anyone call Jesus the word. I've never heard those terms used synonymously either. I don't know if that's a new thing for you, Promise, but that's a new one for me. No, I've heard that one.

[00:10:52]John, the Gospel of John, chapter 1 Yeah. defines Jesus as the word. The word became flesh and dwelt among us.

[00:11:01]>> Well, that's That is some people's interpretation of it, but there's some biblical scholars that will disagree with that. Well, then I'm going to read then. No, so that's But Tim, that's my point. But Tim, my my point is let's not even get into those weeds. Like you've taken us into the weeds over and over and over again. I just want to get past the first point, which is like what is your evidence that God is logic? And we still haven't gotten there.

[00:11:26]Well, I gave you a quite a bit of evidence that the the creator is triune and he has No, no, that's an asser- So let me explain. That's an assertion.

[00:11:36]Also, uncreated realities like the laws of logic or truth. No, no, none of that's evidence. So telling me that you have decided something is not actually evidence. I want to know like how Why should Forest and I believe that God is logic?

[00:11:55]Well, um they're they're immutable facts of of reality.

[00:12:02]Okay? Since there are transcendental truths that actually exist, and these three logic These three laws require a mind to apprehend them.

[00:12:12]Um I not naturally assume that that the laws of logic are reflection of God's necessary being.

[00:12:23]Did God create logic?

[00:12:27]Yeah, just like morality. Morality is a necessary aspect of reality. Tim, Tim, you've just made so many assertions that now we have 17 other things that we have to get evidence of. Yeah. I'm writing that down. That's a whole other thing, dude.

[00:12:42]>> Yeah. Tim, Tim, did God create logic?

[00:12:46]No, it's a necessary aspect of his being. He is logic. Why? Why? Why? Why is God logic? Because he's the maximum perfect being.

[00:12:57]All laws All laws that are actually lawful and and principled in nature um either come from God or they're they're reflection of his being, which is truth, love, and logic.

[00:13:09]>> in a circular argument over and over again. When I ask you a question about logic, you respond with God. When I ask you a question about God, you respond with logic. Help me get the connection point. I would love to be convinced that this is real. Times are getting dark. It would be super cool if there's a God and somebody could provide me evidence that that's true. Here's your chance. Can you tell me why I should believe that God exists? If you think God is logic, then explain to me that connection point cuz you still aren't doing that.

[00:13:36]>> Transcendental realities are real.

[00:13:39]That's why you should believe God exists. Okay? There wouldn't Why call those transcendental realities God?

[00:13:46]Yeah. All right. You wouldn't There wouldn't be transcendental realities if there was no uh ultimate reality.

[00:13:53]>> think Tim, what you're what you're doing So Tim, what you're doing is the equivalent of this. Hey, these headphones exist, therefore God exists.

[00:14:01]And I'm actually showing you even more evidence.

[00:14:04]That is not what we're talking about.

[00:14:05]We're talking about spiritual realities.

[00:14:07]A headphone is a material object.

[00:14:09]>> to prove that it's a reality.

[00:14:11]Tim, you keep you keep just saying as a proof that logic is fundamentally prior to human beings coming into existence. Yeah. Tim, no you didn't. You You You just keep saying this could not be any other way and we don't believe you.

[00:14:29]I It It's a transcendental thing existing does not mean that a God exists. There could I don't know. Like I I'm asking, could Is it possible that a transcendental thing exist without a God? I would say yeah. If we're using the word transcendental the way that you are, then like yeah, for sure. But you just keep saying as if one necessitates the other and all we're asking is for you to expound upon that necessity.

[00:14:54]Substantiate the necessity of a God that that we can You know, we we agree logic exists. Great. We agree that logic came before humans, I guess, in this particular scenario. I'm cool with saying that for the sake of argument.

[00:15:09]Now, how does that get us to therefore there must be a guy that is the arbiter of this and not just that's the only possible way the universe could exist and so it does.

[00:15:23]Am I back on?

[00:15:26]Yes. Where did I get hung up on?

[00:15:28]Nope, you're back.

[00:15:29]>> on? Can you Hey Tim, can you tell me what What did Forest just ask you? Nope, Tim, do me a favor. What did Forest just ask you?

[00:15:38]Yeah, he just asked me how do you get from the transcendental realities of the three laws of logic to God?

[00:15:46]What's the bridge? They're one in the same. That logic necessarily is a component eternal component of God's God's being a a an attribute that he himself >> said cannot change. You have said those words, but it doesn't change anything.

[00:16:03]It's It's like if you were to call in It's like if you were to call in to argue with me about evolution and I said, "Well, look, humans exist and humans couldn't be here without evolution." I need to substantiate that.

[00:16:16]I can't just say humans and evolution are one and that we go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. Like it It has to be this case. I have to show you evidence of it, right? So you claim that logic is evidence of God because logic can't happen without God and God can't happen without logic.

[00:16:32]Build the bridge. How do How do we get there? I think that the universe does have rules of logic and there's no God governing it. I think that the rules of logic are transcendental or whatever.

[00:16:42]They They're all encompassing throughout the whole universe and I don't think there's any God involved. Tell me what thing I'm missing here.

[00:16:52]Well, in my opinion, that's like um looking at a bloody fingerprint on a nice nice and a um murdered person and and saying, "Well, it doesn't necessarily say it necessarily mean that that fingerprint is from the murderer."

[00:17:08]Um it's obvious you either live in a God or a not God universe.

[00:17:12]>> It could be the person themselves. It could be their fingerprint. So you're It could be somebody else who passed by. It That's abso- It could It doesn't necessarily mean it's from the murderer.

[00:17:22]It strongly suggests it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. You need to build evidence for that. Plus, that's that's one line of evidence. The three laws of logic are irrefutable evidence that God exists because they're transcendental.

[00:17:35]>> here refuting them. I'm here refuting them because you have not actually provided us evidence. You have told us just plug the plug into itself and you'll get power. I'm not getting any power. It's not working. I need you to actually provide evidence for any of these claims that you've made and you've made so many, but we're just asking you to provide evidence for the first claim that you made.

[00:17:57]Yeah.

[00:17:58]I believe that that the three laws of logic are a reflection of the Trinity, the God of the Bible.

[00:18:05]We know.

[00:18:06]>> that you believe that. Why should we believe that? I'm not finished making my statement.

[00:18:11]>> Well, quit repeating yourself then. Say something new.

[00:18:14]universe or a not God universe, correct?

[00:18:17]Either God does exist or he doesn't exist. The fact that there are three >> It could be a different God, but either a God, sure. to apprehend them and those three same three laws are provably fundamentally prior to the existence of human beings. That points in the definite direction that God exists, not a not God universe.

[00:18:38]>> Period. No, it doesn't.

[00:18:40]>> see, this is This is the the crux of the issue. I have faith. I look at the evidence. I I side in favor of God.

[00:18:48]>> Wait, why do you need faith if you have evidence? You look at the same evidence and go into denial.

[00:18:53]What's the What's the faith for if you have evidence?

[00:18:57]I'm sorry. Say that again, Promise.

[00:19:00]How do you define faith? Let's Let's do that. Do you define it like kind of how the typical Christian says with just hoping things unseen?

[00:19:07]Mhm. I define it the same way that God the Bible defines it. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[00:19:16]Right. So then why do you So So let me finish my question for you. You asked me to repeat it. So faith is is supposed to take the place when you don't have evidence. That's what that definition is saying there. But then you just proceeded to tell me you have That's what you just read to me and that's what is being said there. So you just told me that you have faith and evidence. Why do you need the faith if you have evidence?

[00:19:45]Well, I think that biblical faith rests on evidence. It's not just a leap in the dark. It's a leap into the light.

[00:19:51]>> Why?

[00:19:52]Why? You're just saying stuff now. Why do you need a leap if there's a bridge?

[00:20:00]There is a bridge.

[00:20:01]I don't know. And you don't need the leap.

[00:20:03]That's what she just said, Tim. So now why do you need the faith if there is the bridge? Now that we all agree that there's a bridge, why do you need the faith?

[00:20:16]Well, that's a good question. I can't I'm not going to answer that today. I don't I think the reason that you have faith is because you don't have good reasons to believe and the faith is having to take the place of the lack of reasons, which you have so far presented to us a lack of reasons and that's it.

[00:20:33]the laws of logic prove the existence of God. You think that the laws of logic just dropped out of the sky and it's just a cosmic accident.

[00:20:42]I assure you. We know that's We know that's what you're asserting. You've said it 30,000 times, Tim. But you don't know what we believe and you just demonstrated that.

[00:20:54]Tim, ask me what I believe about the universe.

[00:20:57]Tim, ask me what I believe about the universe. Me, an atheist. Okay. You please tell us all.

[00:21:03]I have no idea. I don't know about the origins of the universe. I have no idea.

[00:21:08]Okay, are you ignorance is a virtue?

[00:21:13]No, not at all. I I want to know and that therefore I won't make up a lie. I won't make something up just to say, well, I know something cuz that would be arrogance. So I don't want to be arrogant. So instead I'll be honest, which I do think is a virtue.

[00:21:30]Mhm. Can I respond?

[00:21:33]That's the whole point of a conversation.

[00:21:36]I'm not being arrogant when I tell you that 2 + 2 is 4.

[00:21:40]Okay, and the laws of logic >> when you can't show your work.

[00:21:44]You are being arrogant when you can't show your work for that time.

[00:21:48]Precisely. Tim, you demonstrate that 2 + 2 is 4.

[00:21:53]You can demonstrate that 2 + 2 is 4. You can show your work. So right, it is not arrogant that 2 + 2 is 4 cuz you can prove it.

[00:22:01]You cannot, however, you cannot, however, demonstrate that you know the guy who created the universe and you know about the things he wrote in a book. You can't demonstrate that, so that is arrogance.

[00:22:16]Okay, well, um, you know, all I can tell you is that the the God of the Bible once once you become a Christian, if you No, thanks.

[00:22:27]Well, that's okay. No, Tim. I was a Christian and I did and I did remain faithful and a God never showed himself.

[00:22:34]So now you're just preaching. I'm honestly ready to move on to our last caller because this is You have repeated the same thing over and over again and I don't feel that you're being honest. I think you're being the most honest when you just said what you just said, which was starting to preach because I don't think you actually have Speaking of logic, I don't think you have logic or reasons to offer us for how you reached your conclusions. I think that is based on faith. I think the most honest thing you could say is that you just believe this Maybe it's because of how you grew up. Maybe it's because of a personal experience you had. Maybe it's because you haven't really fully approached this topic with skepticism, just like the fingerprint on the knife.

[00:23:10]I don't know what it is, but I don't think we got to a place in this conversation where it's going to be productive for the rest of the call, which is why I think it's an if Forest good with it, we'll move on. If you want to call back sometime, I think that would be great. Forest and I will both be hosting different shows here and there. Um, so we can It's not like I'm not willing to have this conversation, but go back and listen to it and then you'll hear maybe I hope you'll hear where you failed to deliver anything to get the conversation going.

[00:23:35]So since we're this late into it, I think we got to move on to our next person.

[00:23:39]I'm fine with that. Yeah, it's it's just been it's just been endless repeats of assertion rather than evidence. And every time we No, you're still here. I'm just just reiterating. Every time we ask for evidence, you give us the same assertion rather than evidence. And the one time we got to a really good question, you literally said, "That's a good question. I'm not going to answer that." So I don't see the point anymore, Tim.

[00:24:02]Well, I I not going to I I didn't say I didn't I wasn't prepared to answer that exactly, so Right, cuz it's all script. You should You shouldn't have to rely so heavily on the script. You should just be able to think.

[00:24:15]>> I'm not relying I'm trying to Yeah, I'm I'm done. I'm done. Especially that you know, morality is a necessary part of reality. That's a huge claim. Yeah, I wrote that down with a cat but no way. And then also >> claims we were getting was a Wow.

[00:24:34]Why? And then well, there has to be, you know, there's this maximally perfect being. Okay, I can think of a maximally silly being.

[00:24:42]Does that exist because it's a logical possibility of the the What's What is the maximally silly God? I want to worship it. I'd be all about that guy.

[00:24:53]Maximally silly. That's a good mug.

[00:24:55]Eric, do you want to learn how to Mongolian throat sing? Check this out.

[00:24:59]No, I tried. No, keep that to yourself.

[00:25:03]Anyway, thanks for watching that clip.

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