God Isn't Morally Responsible for ANYTHING He Does?? | Forrest Valkai & Seth Andrews

Added: 2026-05-10

[00:00:00]Let's talk to Danny. Pronouns he him who wants to talk about why it doesn't make sense not to believe in a god. Danny, you're on the line with Forest and Seth. How you doing today?

[00:00:11]>> Oh, hi. Okay. Um, I'm doing fine. Um, okay. I wanted to talk about something because you both have claimed to be atheist, right?

[00:00:26]>> We have claimed and so we are.

[00:00:29]Okay. So, you are but you're not saying that you know that there is not a god.

[00:00:37]Is that true?

[00:00:38]>> We haven't true. Yes. We don't believe there's there is a god. There is no good reason to believe that there is a god.

[00:00:44]It doesn't make any sense to believe that there is a god. However, to make the positive claim that there definitely is not one would require access to powers and observation that we do not have. So like for the same reason that I can't say that there is not for certainly not a teapot floating on the dark side of the moon, I can say there is, you know, no good reason to say that that exists and there's no good reason to say a god exists.

[00:01:07]>> Okay? So if we can't go by what we believe in as a sure thing, then truthfully, how can we really live that belief?

[00:01:20]uh the same exact way that you live the belief that there is no Easter Bunny.

[00:01:26]Just you go about your life living and this concept doesn't affect you in any way. And if someday someone proves to you that the Easter Bunny is real, you would change your life accordingly, mainly by being terrified. Uh, and if they prove to you someday someone confronts you and asks you to demonstrate their whether or not the Easter Bunny is real and and tries to argue with you about it, you'll be thoroughly confused and annoyed. So, that's how we do it.

[00:01:52]>> Oh, well, uh, okay. Well, you know, if I was an atheist and I really felt that there was no God, I would feel that if I was showing good morals to this society and I was being friendly and everything, it would be criminal for me because I would be at fault for a lot of bad crimes have happening like children being killed or being raped because I didn't take the initiative to kill what evil there was and I didn't make the judgment call on doing something about it because that's something that I don't do. I don't do those bad things. So that's the thing.

[00:02:41]>> It would be criminal for me to have good morals.

[00:02:45]>> That's not true at all. Um you not participating in those evil things is good enough. you helping to stop those evil things is better. But you can't do everything. You can't be every judge, jury, and executioner for every single one of these crimes. You can't go investigate every single crime. What you can do is contribute to a society which has structure and which has people who actually work in law enforcement, actually work in criminal justice, actually work in the legal system, and actually keep things sane and civil and help hold those things together. And there's a lot of different ways to do that. There are a lot of critiques about the way that we do it. Do we critiques about the way other people do it? Lots of people who sit down and deal with the theory of this. You could be one of those people. There's lots and lots of ways for every single one of us to make this world a better place and be moral while doing so. But here's the gambit for you, Danny, is that if you believe there is a God, then that God is responsible for all those bad things that you're complaining about. At the very least, he's complicit in it.

[00:03:47]Because while you and I, I like to say, if you or I saw a child being raped or a person being murdered or an old woman being mugged, we would do something to stop it, we would either step in and intervene or we would call somebody else who could. Your god sits there with folded arms and says, "Go ahead and have your fun. I'll torture you later." And that's simply not good enough for me.

[00:04:05]And if the child who is being raped doesn't believe in him and worship him his whole, then that child also gets tortured as well. Not a good moral system, right?

[00:04:14]Well, gee, you know, I mean, here you talked a whole lot and the deal is is that you're wrong because >> the truth of the matter is God did not create us. He created the perfect human being >> and we are part of the creation of the fallen world. So, we are part of his creation, but he didn't create us.

[00:04:42]>> Sounds like you're a Christian, Danny.

[00:04:44]Is that right?

[00:04:46]>> Yeah.

[00:04:47]>> Okay. So, just really quick, is God all knowing?

[00:04:51]>> Yes.

[00:04:53]>> Great. So, then he knew exactly what was going to happen. He knew that we were going to be fallen. He knew all these things were going to occur and he didn't make the universe in a different way so those things didn't happen. Why not?

[00:05:07]>> It's true. But that doesn't mean that he made it happen just because he knows. I have >> no no no Danny that's not the question.

[00:05:15]Essentially a version of this is why would God create anyone he forneew would end up in hell? Why would he do that?

[00:05:23]Why would he proceed >> with a failed plan when he forneew it would fail and fall?

[00:05:32]strictly because he is given that creation life and that was his right to do that. But it doesn't mean that he >> did it because he could.

[00:05:42]>> So he did it cuz he could.

[00:05:43]>> And it doesn't mean that he made it happen.

[00:05:46]>> No, no, no. Hang on.

[00:05:47]>> No, it does. It absolutely does. If I if I have a set of dominoes, if I have a set of dominoes and the very last domino falls on a button that launches a nuke.

[00:05:56]If I push the first domino, cuz it's my right to push dominoes all I want, and I know what's going to happen that is going to launch a nuke at the end. I launched the that I did that. I launched the nuke. I am responsible. If God knows everything that's going to happen and he is infinitely powerful, he could make the universe any way that he wants. He could change anything that he wants at any time. He knows how to make a universe where he doesn't violate anybody's free will and everybody is moral all the time and nothing bad happens and nobody has to go to hell. He knows how to do that. He is all wise, all powerful, all knowing, everything.

[00:06:31]And yet he made this universe where 10,000 children starve to death every day. And he did it on purpose.

[00:06:37]>> Well, >> you can't blame anybody else but himself.

[00:06:41]>> Okay. Well, I can answer that, but I can't overtalk you because I'm going to have respect for your show. I'm not going to >> Oh, thank you.

[00:06:51]>> be rude. But the simple fact is is what you said, it's actually pretty weak really. And not only that, >> tell me why.

[00:07:02]Because if God knows all things and there's innocent children getting killed or whatever, okay, at one point in time, Hitler was an innocent young boy. But what he grow up to be? If God knows all things, he knows what innocent child will turn into a real monster and cause chaos in our world. And if they got killed, he knows that. We don't know that. What if you could go back in time and find Hitler back when he was eight or nine years old and you're the only one that knows he's going to become this guy that is going to try and rule the world and have everybody killed except for a white uh a blondhaired blueeyed person? Would you do anything about it or would you be like a no or not? You know, >> yes, I would do something about it.

[00:07:56]>> You would do something about it.

[00:07:57]>> Oh, okay. You would do something about it. And that's the thing. Yes. You would be in a situation to either go to prison for or is that >> you start shooting at people that want to kill you.

[00:08:09]>> Why would I go to prison?

[00:08:10]>> Trying to arrest you.

[00:08:11]>> You You'll go to prison.

[00:08:13]>> I wouldn't let him take me to prison.

[00:08:15]>> I'd be like, "Hey, I did you."

[00:08:19]>> Boris didn't say he would murder the 8-year-old. He said he would take a preventative measure >> to expose and prevent the 8-year-old from becoming the adult that would try to ruin the world.

[00:08:32]>> That's educate I would educate Hitler. I I would help him. I would care for I would give him the care that he needed as a child to not become a monster. I would change the course of his life in such a way. I would introduce him to more people. I get him involved in more charity work. I would do things to make him a better person. And if I saw that he was going down that path, I would stop him. I would do things that I had to do non-lethally until I was forced to do something else when he was an adult, like there's a gradient. There's a lot of steps that can be taken. And I am not all powerful. God is. So God sees this horrible thing happening. And rather than doing anything to stop it, with his infinite power, at any time in his life, God sits there with folded arms and says, "Yeah, a few million people need to die, but at the end of the day, they're going to worship me, so it's okay."

[00:09:20]>> Well, I know what the Bible says, and he did warn people. If they didn't follow his way, we would get blamed for the things that our ancestors did. uh the people that were created after us and everything uh we would get blamed for bad things that other people did. So because we're leaving our hand ourselves in the hands of evil which you don't believe in Satan but that's the whole point >> is Danny Danny >> he did do what he did >> I would like to explain it >> participate a little bit in this conversation as a co-host if that's okay Danny first of all I'm a little concerned because it does sound a little bit like you are being played at the wrong speed are you doing okay over there. You doing all right?

[00:10:15]>> Well, I would say I'm doing all right, but >> Okay. All right.

[00:10:21]>> I'm not totally all right because I'm guilty of sin and I am worthy of death just like >> Okay. Hang on, hang on, hang on.

[00:10:32]I want to draw us back to the original point.

[00:10:37]Let's say that Satan exists and Satan has imbued the world with evil with a capital E. Ah, who created Satan?

[00:10:47]>> If Yahweh created all things, then he created Satan. Yeah.

[00:10:57]>> No, he didn't create Satan. He created Lucifer.

[00:11:01]>> All right. So let's say and again if we go back to the Old Testament we're going to we can get into the semantics of Satan which means adversary blah blah blah but okay he created Lucifer who rebelled became the fallen angel blah blah blah why would he create a being that he forneew would fall from grace and then fuel all of the sin and evil and horrors and genocide and pain and death and torture that would follow if he knew it was coming. All he had to do was not create Lucifer. And being God, he had that option. I wonder why he made Lucifer anyway. Can you explain that for us?

[00:11:42]>> Well, yeah, I could. And I don't think it's really going to do any good.

[00:11:49]>> Come on. The I am a quiver. I cannot wait for the explanation.

[00:11:55]Danny, why did God create Lucifer knowing he was creating his own arch nemesis?

[00:12:03]>> Well, you know, he had to deal with the simple fact that his creation turned turned against him.

[00:12:11]>> But hang on, hold on.

[00:12:12]>> I disagree with your premise. A God who is omnipotent doesn't have to do anything. Nothing restrains or dictates anything to God. He didn't have to create Lucifer. So why did he make him?

[00:12:29]>> Well, you know, you got a point there.

[00:12:34]>> He does. He really does.

[00:12:37]>> That is hard to answer, but you know, >> he is.

[00:12:40]>> That's not something for me to judge because he is my he is uh the creator of all. Why is it not for you to assess whether or not it makes sense and is right or wrong? Why have you decided that you are going to opt out of this critical moral question?

[00:13:05]>> Well, I'm still going to say that we're responsible for what we do.

[00:13:11]>> I got nothing.

[00:13:11]>> And I got nothing else. It's we're we're back. I have nothing.

[00:13:16]>> This This is what happened, man. It's Danny. You You literally just discovered >> you literally just arrived on your own.

[00:13:27]>> You literally just arrived on your own at the same conclusion that we've been giving you this whole time that God is ultimately responsible. If God makes everything, God oversees everything, God is all powerful and all knowing and could do anything he wants, then absolutely every single bad thing that ever happens, ever ultimately falls back to him. The buck stops there because somewhere down the line, it was his domino that set all of this in motion.

[00:13:57]And when you were pressed on it, you first said, "Might makes right. He's the creator. He can do whatever he wants. I don't get to question it." That's not how morality works. And then you switched to saying, "Well, no, people are responsible." And you just forgot everything we just covered. I don't understand, man. It sounds like you were bashing your head against this wall and and and every time you realize the wall is there, you just bash your head against it harder to prove that it isn't.

[00:14:24]Well, then I guess I need to ask if I was to commit go out and commit a coldblooded murder, am I responsible for doing that?

[00:14:36]>> Yes, absolutely you are. And you should be held accountable.

[00:14:42]>> Okay. So, I agree.

[00:14:46]So, >> but you think >> But you think that there's a But you think, Danny, that there's a God and a devil that are ultimately responsible for all of these actions and put the devil put sin in the world and and that he's twisting you and we live in this fallen corrupt. And so, you're not responsible because you sinned because the world's fallen because Satan put sin in your heart because the blah blah blah blah blah. Like, it's it's not just you.

[00:15:14]We're saying it's just you. You're in this alone. There's nothing else after this. And what you do matters and you are responsible for it. Which one of us do you think has a better moral system here?

[00:15:28]Well, I don't really know exactly what said because I can't hear you that good because I don't have you on speakerphone. I can hear you better on speaker phone.

[00:15:42]>> So, >> okay. I couldn't hear you that clear.

[00:15:45]>> Good.

[00:15:46]>> Yeah.

[00:15:47]>> Just like do you I don't know, man. Do you want to keep going? Because like we can ask the same question in different ways. No, >> I'm good. I'm good.

[00:15:53]>> Yeah, >> Danny. We I think we we landed on the same point, which is that God is ultimately responsible for everything.

[00:16:03]And when you came to that point, you dodged it and you made excuses for it and you did the thing that we talked about at the beginning of this show. We talked about divine command theory and how might makes right. God in the Bible commands slavery, commands genocide, commands all manner of evil, and commits these things as well. And your argument is it's good because God did it.

[00:16:29]>> Can I say one last thing before we hang up?

[00:16:33]If you can understand atheist, >> okay, you being an atheist, I would say you should make that judgment call because somebody should be the judge and I feel if I was an atheist, I should be the judge of bad things if I am living a pretty good moral life. So >> let let me ask you let me ask you one more question. Let me ask you one more question, Danny. If any person, if any person in this world had the same track record as your god, that they knowingly made somebody that they knew was going to hurt millions of people, that they knowingly made people that they knew were going to become genocidal maniacs, that they knowingly allowed people to rape and murder and hold slaves and all these things. If any human being did the same things your god did, would you call that person evil or mighty?

[00:17:28]Uh well, no, I would not call that person evil.

[00:17:33]I'd call that person God.

[00:17:36]>> Ah, and there's there's the the roots of it. There's the the meat and potatoes is that you worship something.

[00:17:43]>> Everything.

[00:17:44]>> You worship something.

[00:17:46]>> You did. You did. And you answered in a terrible way. You worship something that any rational thinking moral person would rightly call morally just undefendable. And that's where we're at, man. Have an awesome rest of your day, Danny. Feel free to call back anytime.

[00:18:01]>> Okay. Thanks a lot. Bye.

[00:18:03]>> I think you would have sounded even more authoritative on this forest had you been wearing glasses. I do miss about you.

[00:18:09]>> Definitely agree. Adds a dimension.

[00:18:12]>> I could have pushed my hair back. I could have added glasses. I could have been so much prettier than I could have had some scruff going on. Divine command theory is, you know, it's it's moral because God, right, God decided he he issued it. Therefore, who are we to question? It's an abdication, I think, of moral responsibility. I had an a conversation with an apologist, you know, and he was a a guy who was he was genuinely interested in how I got to where I got, and we were talking about God, and I began to go through the laundry list of all these other things and the problem in the Old Testament, blah, blah, blah. And it came down to, well, who are we, right? God made the ant farm and we are the ants in it and he can burn us with the magnifying glass because it's his thing and because we are mere insects. And it was this weird really a dehumanization, a devaluation of our own worth. And uh I find that tragic. And and again, I go back to when I look at believers who have this point of view and say, "Well, if if my child dies on the operating table or is killed in a car wreck or I end up with cancer or the tsunami wipes out a quarter million people in a single day or or whatever, well, you know, I mean, God, he can do what he wants. Who are we to question?" And I always uh look him in the eye and I say, 'Well, actually, you are someone of value and your question also has value. You know, don't abdicate your responsibility. Don't give that up to say, is it right or wrong? Does it make any sense? These are critical questions, I think.

[00:19:47]>> Yeah.

[00:19:48]>> And um so anyway, um that's my two cents.

[00:19:53]>> I agree. They're critical questions that they're critical questions that people as dug in as Danny >> just refuse to acknowledge exist. You know what I mean?

[00:20:03]>> I am a little worried for Danny. He was he was moving pretty slow on the vowels and consonants. Do you think he was lit?

[00:20:09]I mean, I know we're just guessing, but do you think the guy had >> had been partaking something?

[00:20:15]>> It's tough to say. It's tough to say.

[00:20:18]Okay. Um, but like I think that the most telling moment wherever Danny was at, you know, however many hands in or or or joints in Danny was, I think that the the main thing that I think needs to be remembered is that your your gambit was perfect. Where where does evil come from? Well, it comes from Satan. Who made Satan? God made Satan. Did God know that Satan was going to be this thing?

[00:20:43]Yeah, of course. Okay. Why? And you could hear the hamster, you know, choking and and and and gasping for air on the wheel for a minute. And then he just said, "Well, God can do whatever he wants." And then he said, "Well, I'm not, you know, who am I to cuz you know, where's the blah blah blah?" And then he ended on, "I can't hear you anyway."

[00:21:05]Which I don't think was true. Um because he was, it was funny that he wasn't able to hear us, but he the whole time was answering really really articul whatever. Uh, >> sorry Danny. We're very sorry about your choking hamster, >> which does sound vaguely naughty. I think if you say just >> you can choke your hamsters. Just do it off screen.

[00:21:26]>> Hey, thanks for watching that clip. Did you know we saw what you were doing when you watched it?

[00:21:33]>> We saw all of it. All of it.

[00:21:37]All of it.

[00:21:38]>> All of it.

[00:21:40]So, you're going to want to pay us hush money over at patreon.com/calltheline where you can buy our silence and watch our patron exclusive