When Your Child Chooses You Back

Added: 2026-05-31

[00:00:05]Welcome to Voices of Adoption, where we share unique perspectives, actionable advice, and meaningful stories of birth parents, adopes, adoptive families, and other members of the adoption community.

[00:00:17]I'm Donna Pope, executive director of Heart-ToHeart Adoptions.

[00:00:21]>> And I'm Nathan William, founder and former CEO of adoption.com.

[00:00:25]>> Together, we've been part of thousands of adoption journeys over the past 25 years. and we're so glad you're here.

[00:00:31]>> Let's begin today's conversation.

[00:00:37]>> Welcome to Voices of Adoptions. We're super excited to be here with Brian and Landre, who I'm going to call Lala.

[00:00:45]We're excited to have them here with us today. Um they've got a fun story a lot rotating uh surrounding kinship adoption and and that's something we don't hit a lot of on this and so that'll be fun to talk with them about that. Let me tell you about them. Brian and LA, they're co-hosts of Everything Not Black and White and and I'm excited for them to explain why they named their podcast that. But there they explore nuanced conversations around family identity, relationships, and lived experiences with an honest heart. And and I think that's super important that everything we do in this, we want it to be just as honest we can.

[00:01:26]They're a married couple with a deeply blended family and adoption is not just part of their story. It's a recurring thread that has shaped who they are, how they love, and how they define family.

[00:01:38]So Brian and Lala, welcome to our podcast.

[00:01:42]>> Thank you, Donna. We're so happy to be here.

[00:01:45]>> So Brian, let's go ahead and just start with you. Tell us a little bit. Now, you've got a picture behind you. Tell us about that picture and how that applies to our show.

[00:01:53]>> Well, this one here is my biological and this one here is my adoptive one, but just as much my kid as this one for sure. Um, I adopted Azie uh when they were young, six, seven years old. And and um we've just had a great time ever since. A great kid. I'm so thrilled.

[00:02:10]>> Okay. And so how old was the one you adopted? And say his name again.

[00:02:15]>> Azie. A U J I E. Yep.

[00:02:18]>> Okay. And how old was he?

[00:02:20]>> Is is six years old, seven, if I recall correctly. I'm terrible.

[00:02:23]>> So when we when we met when we met, he was six and then the official adoption happened when he was 10. We wanted him to be double digits. So, we said, "Hey, we want you to understand what adoption is like and you get to make a choice, too." And that was important to us that he got to be a involved in that process.

[00:02:39]As much as we were wanting him to be adopted, he had to be wanted wanted to be adopted, too.

[00:02:44]>> You know, I love hearing that because one of the challenges that adopes will often mention is that they had no choice in the matter. And they they didn't they they had no choice in the matter. Now, you know, when we're kids, we're, you know, we don't really know what's going on, but the fact that you gave Azie that choice was really important. What had happened with his father, with his biological father?

[00:03:09]>> Yes. So, so AI is my biological child.

[00:03:11]And so, I actually when So, his father and I literally broke up when I was two months pregnant. So, his he did not want anything to do with us as a family, which is totally fine. And so I took on the role of being a single mom. And I say I was a single mom, but I had a community of people behind me, including my mother and my sister who were amazing in helping me raise Audi up until 6 years old. And then when I met Brian, you know, one of the things that was so attractive to me is how much he cared about being a father and not only being a father to his biological son, but like a father, a community father. So he was a father figure to a lot of kids. And so that made me submit in my mind I wanted him to be not only in my life but also in Azie's life.

[00:03:58]>> So Brian, how did you feel about it? And and as a single mom, I've got to tell you, I have dated a lot of men. When they saw that I had kids, they're going, I'm out of here.

[00:04:11]>> Yeah. I I think luckily for me my uh experience was with my mom being a single mom until I was about 14 15 16 years old and uh seeing her go through what she went through and then getting married and um of course I was at that rebellious teenage stage. So me and my uh stepdad at the time didn't really have a great relationship but it grew with time as I matured our relationship matured. Uh, but with with Azie, it it was so easy. The kid, I mean, once me and LA decided we're getting married, she's like or AI's like, "Can I call him dad now?" And we're all like, "Hold on, wait till we get the ring on the finger and this and that." But the kid has been the easiest kid to get along with. And soon as we got married, from that point forward, it was dad and has never looked back.

[00:04:58]>> That just makes my heart so warm. I I just love that. And And what a wonderful thing for him. And then you had another son too. H how old was he?

[00:05:09]>> Uh he was older than than Az. So A's A is uh >> So Jason was 11. Yeah. Jason was 11 when we got married. So yeah. So he he's Jason will be 29 this year and Aussie just turned 24.

[00:05:21]>> And so how did Jason feel about this?

[00:05:24]>> That's a great question. I think I think he was excited. It's just a blended family. I believe I had just gone through a divorce not so many years before that. So, there's a lot of emotional stuff he was dealing with at the time from from all levels. Um, but he I think he was excited to kind of take on that big brother role and he played it pretty well. So, I think I don't want to speak for him, but >> yeah. No, I think that's right. You know, I think I was so interested in Don and I I do love that question because, you know, the way Jason felt as a young 11year-old and how he feels as a 29year-old are very very different. you know, as he and Azie have matured and grown together, they're really great friends. And even Azie's girlfriend, so Jason is a hair stylist. I'm going to say that. So Jason's a hair stylist, and Aie's girlfriend goes to Jason to get her hair done, which is amazing. And so they have this bond that's so cute and wonderful. So when they're together, they really play up that that that the the sibling thing that it's never he's never said, "Oh, that's my stepbrother."

[00:06:23]He's like, "That's my brother." Like, right? And that's not, you know, so that's what's really important to us is we never Yeah, I don't even call Jason my stepson. I call Jason my bonus son because it's a bonus that I get to be in this relationship with with Brian and I got this beautiful oer son with with me, too. So, it feels really good to have our family dynamic the way we have it.

[00:06:45]>> Now, what's so interesting about you guys' story is Brian, you were adopted >> when you were 15. You were you were adopted and and then Leila you were adopted and so tell >> so so my sister was >> Oh yeah your sister was adopted and so you guys have had this kinship adoption flowing through everything. So so Brian start with you. How was that for you as a as a 15year-old?

[00:07:10]>> It it was interesting. I I didn't actually get adopted at 15. That's when I my mom got married again. So, as I grew up into an adult, my dad asked me uh I think it was in about 20 21. He asked me if he could adopt me, which was unusual for that age. And I thought it was the great greatest thing I could do, you know, take on his name because my dad was absent, much like Azie's dad from the day of conception pretty much.

[00:07:35]I never met the guy. And I thought what a cool thing to take his last name, which obviously I handed down to my kids and and obviously share with my wife now. Um, but yeah, it was fun being in court and the judge had to go through his regular questions and one of the questions he asked me is, "Do you feel safe at home with your dad?" And, you know, we all we all kind of chuckle. We had a good laugh at it. And um, at the end of the thing, I got a little uh mallet with a little blue ribbon on it and stuff like I was still like a little kid. So, it was a very unique adoption, but it was it was it was fun and I'm glad to carry his name to this day.

[00:08:10]>> So, that's really unique. You were 21 years old.

[00:08:14]>> Yes. I was I was much older.

[00:08:16]>> So you were very much an adult.

[00:08:18]>> Yes.

[00:08:18]>> And yet you wanted this man to adopt you.

[00:08:22]>> Yep.

[00:08:23]>> And And it's because you didn't have a father figure and you loved him and you felt connected to him and you actually changed your name to be his son.

[00:08:33]>> Yep. It felt like the right thing to do.

[00:08:35]As much as time is I mean just spending one day with me is one more day than my real father ever did or my biological father ever did. So, you know, that's the least I could do is take his >> Did your biological father know about it?

[00:08:46]>> He passed when I was uh 11 12 years old.

[00:08:49]So, he's out of the equation.

[00:08:51]>> Okay. All right, Leila, tell us about your sister's story.

[00:08:55]>> Yes. So, my my mom was a single mom uh of my sister and then she met my dad and then her and my dad got married and then they had me. Um, and so when they had me, my dad was like, at the time I was like, well, these are both my daughters and so we need to make it official. And so he adopted my sister. So again, like we all had the same last name so that we all felt like we were connected as a family unit. Um, and that was really important because my we have a unfortunately have a a a theme of of original men leaving a picture. So my my sister's biological father, he she met him one time um as a as a young person and then he just decided he didn't want to have anything to do with the family.

[00:09:40]And so with my with my dad being in it, it gave my sister that feeling of being as a unit in a family. Um and she's I mean really the best sister you could ever hope for and imagine. She actually acts like my mom more than my mom does cuz she's very super protective. And I'm like, "Girl, I'm married with grown kids. I'm I'm okay. I promise you I'm okay. But she's just very protective.

[00:10:03]But she's been the absolute best sister.

[00:10:06]And again, we don't talk about being halfsisters. We are sisters. You know, we share the the the mom and the dad whether the biologically things happen or not, but we are very much sisters and we will ride hard for each other.

[00:10:19]>> So this this theme here that you've got here that I don't really care that who the genetic material came from. I this is my family. These are my siblings.

[00:10:33]This is my son. Um how did that you get to that point to do that? And what does it take to to have that total openness and and not have these barriers and these different names for different people?

[00:10:49]>> Okay. For for me it's everything. Donna, I love this question so much because, you know, we always talk about family is is a chosen. So, we have friends in our lives that we call family. Like, it does the bloodline doesn't matter. It's like how do we care for each other? How do we truly see the humanity in each other?

[00:11:08]How do we see each other's spirits, their their being, their authenticity?

[00:11:13]We always talk about we are all human beings, not human doings. So, it's not about what you do, it's about who you are. And so we welcome people into our lives like that. And so it was super important for us to have a household even as a blended interracial family, which we are. Even as a blended family, we wanted everybody to feel secure in who they were, to feel like they could be their truest, most authentic self and they'd be accepted and loved. And so we have that house. We call it a house of empathy and a house of love because anybody who walks through our doors needs to feel that that connection point. And so it's super important to me that we have that throughout our family, but also as our extended family and our community is really important to us as well.

[00:11:55]>> Yeah, I echo that. I mean, I think what what helped us along is all the experiences, the travels, the vacations, the taking the kids to school, like all those little things add up and before you know it, you've got a history with that person. And I think that only uh helps uh embolden and helps uh strengthen that bond with those experiences because we go for it. We look back, hey, you remember when you did this, you remember when you did that? And um I think it's just a a cold process and I would recommend anybody that's really up for it to give it a try.

[00:12:27]>> So Brian, many people would ask this question whether they would ask it or not. Do you love your boys differently?

[00:12:36]Absolutely not. I We got the kids back no matter what they do, no matter what they like. One went into hair styling.

[00:12:43]Uh he wasn't he wasn't a great high school student, but he found his niche in hair styling and we supported that all the way. Uh the other kids into uh theater and the performing arts and they went to college for film and social media and all that. And you know, whatever they want to do, we had their back uh regardless. And we'll always be that way. We tell the kids every day, uh you know, if you get yourself in a sticky situation, come home. You always got a place there.

[00:13:07]>> Isn't that so valuable? If that is family, and I hate to say it, but it's when things get really bad, it's that safe place to go home to and someone is there. So, so Brian, even when you were 21 years old, you felt that need for permanency, that need that I am the son of this man, even as an adult. Yeah, absolutely. And uh you know, I I didn't see like the two of them ever separating. So, I'm like, "Hey, this is a sure bet." And uh he's my dad. He's helped me work on the cars and you know, we've worked on plenty of outdoor projects. He's taught me exactly how not to do everything when it comes to home improvements. Like, I should shut the breaker off. Uh he's taught me that the hard way. So, I love he let me shock myself a few times. Uh but yeah, we we've grown through all these experience and just just so happy that that he's my dad today. Yeah. And he's taught Brian so many things that we now teach the kids. I mean, one of the things, Azie, our our youngest, just bought their first adult car. Like, this has been such a big deal. And they went through everything. They put the down payment on themselves. They went and researched it with with dad and then they went and bought it. And then literally the first week they had it, we were they were driving by a construction zone and something hit the bumper and put a hole in it.

[00:14:30]>> Oh my gosh. This kid was wrecked.

[00:14:33]They're like, "Dog gone it. I just spent all this money. I haven't had it for a week." And Brian is so wonderful. He's just like, "It's okay. Calm down. Let's figure it out. Let's research where to get the bumper. Let's fix it. We'll do it." And so they fixed it together. And so it was so lovely. And so Brian has always done that. He teaches the kids how to do oil changes and how to change tires and how to be on the lookout for things so that they know how to take care of things if they get into an emergency situation. So he's done all the amazing things that a dad would normally do for his kids. He's done it for both of our kids and we've been so fortunate and the kids are so grateful for it too.

[00:15:08]>> For sure. That that Okay, I want to go to this question because your podcast is called um not black and white. Let's see. Let me let me say it right. Um you better help me with it.

[00:15:22]>> Yeah, everything's not black and white.

[00:15:23]>> Not black and white. Okay. You are an interracial couple. Black and white.

[00:15:28]tell us about why you decided to start a podcast and what do you hope to accomplish with your podcast?

[00:15:35]>> Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the big things for us is that, you know, we're the same age, right? So, we were born in the same year. We're like six months apart in age. And what we both realized is how much we had in common, how much we had different. We were both raised by single parents. I was raised in the south in Georgia. He was raised in Midwest and Ohio, you know, but there was a lot of similarities, but then there's a lot of differences, too. And so one of the big things that we wanted to focus on when we got married was exploring all of the commonalities with all the differences and learning from each other. And so that made us think, hey, you know what? I bet you there's a lot of people who feel like the the division between them is so vast they can't find a way to connect and talk.

[00:16:14]And we're like, what if we created a platform that people with varying experiences and perspectives can come and people can learn something? And if you have an open heart and open mind, how can you learn about somebody else's lived experience? And so that's why we created it. And it has been something that has enriched our lives greatly, being able to talk to so many different people and learn about their journey.

[00:16:35]>> I love that. I love that, Brian.

[00:16:38]>> The best part about the podcast is giving people a voice. It just lets them know that they matter. And, you know, we'll take the time, you know, on the backside. You guys know how much effort it takes to get stuff edited and posted.

[00:16:49]It's a little bit of work. Uh, so for us to take that time, give them a voice, I mean that just that just melts our heart. We love doing that.

[00:16:56]>> We love it.

[00:16:56]>> And what's important to me is giving you guys a voice.

[00:16:59]>> Oh, thank you. And no, that's really important because you have such a unique voice. So there, you know, as an interracial couple, tell us some of the challenges that have been there with those differences and how did you overcome those challenges with the similarities that you have?

[00:17:20]Yeah, absolutely. Well, Brian, I'll let you talk a little bit about some of the pieces and I'll jump in with that.

[00:17:26]>> It's probably been more interesting for me because Landre was the first black woman I dated, then I married. So, a lot of the things that popped up in our relationship over the years was new to me. Like, it it was all first time goound. Um, but it really opened my eyes to some of the challenges that she has faced in her life because all of a sudden I'm in this this new realm uh of viewership of the world. And we found multiple challenges uh with racism and uh you know people looking at you is that your kid you know because they look different than you. And uh it's been challenging. Probably the most the probably one of the most disappointing times I we had well I had two but I'll bring up the one is we just bought a brand new house and my family helped me move in and LA was on work somewhere and I was like well I'll surprise her I'll get everything moved and she'll be thrilled to debt that we're in the new house and all the furniture set up.

[00:18:20]Well, uh, the gentleman behind us saw that just me and my white family moving everything in. And then, uh, I was talking to him and, uh, he come up to me and we're talking about the neighborhood, how nice it is, and is, and he, he just subtly mentioned how nice the neighborhood was to all the n-words moved in. And I had to I had to choice what who >> my backdoor neighbor. He had never met my wife yet.

[00:18:47]So his first comment to me was, you know, the neighborhood is good till all the nwords move in.

[00:18:52]>> Who are the n-words?

[00:18:54]>> Well, I can't say it.

[00:18:55]>> Black people. The black people. The very the very negative, ugly word that some people call black people. That's the n word.

[00:19:04]>> Oh, the in word. Yes.

[00:19:06]>> Oh. Oh, I thought you said inward like as opposed to outward. Okay. So the in Oh, so he said that to you?

[00:19:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He said, "Have you not met your wife yet?"

[00:19:17]>> No, >> he had not met me yet. He had no idea.

[00:19:20]>> Just turn around him.

[00:19:22]>> You know what? Everything inside me did, but uh I know that's not the right thing to do. We just moved into this neighborhood. Um what I did was call a friend of ours who's African-American and I say, "Hey, here's my situation."

[00:19:34]He's a male and I was like, "How should I, you know, deal with this?" I let it go for the moment. and he he and I talked about it and then I just came to the the resolution that what I'm going to do is let him meet my wife and when he meets my wife he's going to be shocked first of all and then he's going to be humbled I hope and that's exactly how it worked out and when he met my wife I I just sat back and smiled because I knew he was uncomfortable as all get out and I just enjoyed the show and I still at this point did not tell my wife that this had occurred because we just moved in I don't want her to have a bad impression of our community.

[00:20:10]And uh the next day he come up to me.

[00:20:12]He's like, "Hey man, you know, I just want you to know I'm not a racist." And I'm like, "Yeah, you kind of are.

[00:20:17]>> You're not a racist." Bologoney, you just showed you were a racist last night.

[00:20:24]>> That's one of the challenges I have because I I can present myself as as for lack of a better word, like a maggot type. You know, I got the goatee. I'm white build and um you know, that that gives people a false impression that they can say whatever they want around me. I mean, I've had multiple times where I' I've had to uh take a step back and address it in a in a professional way and not just, you know, shoot off the handle because I I think that's counterproductive.

[00:20:48]>> So, how did you feel? Well, you didn't know the story at the time.

[00:20:53]>> I didn't know. Well, here's what's so funny about it, Donna. Like, I we've lived in this house for eight years. I only found out last year after he passed away. So, our neighbor passed away and Brian was like, "I got to tell you something. And I've been holding it for a while. I'm >> like hold her the whole time. That is the whole time.

[00:21:13]>> Good.

[00:21:14]>> So, but but then you you when you preface it like I got to tell you something. I've been holding for a long time. I'm like oh lord, what am I about to hear and but he just said uh that's what happened. So he told me the story and I'm like I'm glad you didn't tell me cuz I would have been furious.

[00:21:32]>> And that's not how I wanted to start off, you know, a new home and a new environment. And uh I'm glad I was able to keep it to myself and protect my wife and our neighbor for that case.

[00:21:41]>> Well, >> yeah, you protected the neighbor. Facts.

[00:21:44]>> And so you've dealt with those things all along the way. And and so what are kind of some of the strategies you've learned? Now, you mentioned that sometimes you intentionally come across as somebody who could be racist and and you do it maybe not on purpose, but to play that little game with them.

[00:22:01]>> I mean, I got all the check marks.

[00:22:02]T-shirt, blue jeans, I drive a Ford F-150. like like, oh, he's one of us, you know, we can say whatever. But, you know, the fact of the matter is is as a white person, I never had to deal with those type of issues because never it never, you know, people say stuff like whatever, you know, it didn't bother me because I wasn't in a relationship. Now I got people I love and care about, including our our son. And now I take it a lot more personal. And I look at I think of myself as a young man and there's probably things that I've said that were inappropriate and I said, "What would have been better for me at that time?" And what would have been better is if someone would have pulled me aside and said, "Hey, this is how you made me feel. This is what you said.

[00:22:39]This is why it's offensive." And I've done that on multiple occasions now with people. And I have gotten much better of a reaction by doing that and educating them. Uh because a lot of people don't know I'm married to a black woman than I do by just snapping off and and going off on somebody. So >> that just warms my heart.

[00:22:59]Just so you know, I I am the adoptive mother of two biracial boys. And um my oldest especially identifies himself as African-American. And he will often say to me, and he probably is right that I don't understand.

[00:23:18]No, he's right. I don't understand. But I care. I care about what he feels. And I and I watch and I see and sometimes I think, honey, calm down. You're you're kind of going a little over the top on your feeling of being put down.

[00:23:37]But on the other hand, I see times when I think, hey people, treat him with respect.

[00:23:43]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:23:44]>> And and some and so I don't know that we always understand, but we can always care and try to understand. Leila, what's your thoughts on that?

[00:23:55]>> Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. And that's the thing, you know, and I say this to my friends because, you know, I we one of the beautiful things about the relationship that Brian and I have. We have such I call it the the cornucopia rainbow coalition of friends. We have black friends, white friends, gay friends, straight friends, Muslim friends, Christian friends, atheist friends. We have literally when you talk about everybody under the sun, we choose to be in community and we choose to be in relationship with people because we want to see who they are, their heart. I don't care what labels they have. We want to see their heart. And so that's what's really important to me is how can I stand as an ally to other people who are different than me as well. You know, there's a certain amount of privilege we all have in different ways, right? You know, some people might have a race privilege or or a gender privilege or even a soio economic privilege or an education privilege. The the the key is if you have a privilege that is, you know, exalted versus one that is condemned, then use your privilege for the good of everyone. Use it for the good of the community. And so that's how we look at it. And I love, you know, people who are allies, accompllices, you know, all those people who just say, I'm going to stand here with you. And like you said, I may not understand, but I care enough to try and I'm gonna be here with you. And that's how we live our lives and that's how we want others to be, you know, welcomed into our world as well. So, it's really important that you ally somebody else who is in a different situation than you if you have the power and privilege to do so.

[00:25:24]>> I'm going to emphasize that just a little bit more and let you emphasize it more. this idea that okay, maybe I have white privilege, maybe I have financial privilege, maybe I have gender, okay, okay, maybe I recognize that, that I do that. So now I'm working with somebody who may be struggling in a little way.

[00:25:46]How do I stand with them? How do I extend myself in such a way that I can benefit them? Thoughts on that?

[00:25:57]>> Absolutely. Yeah, I first of all, I love that question and thank you for bringing it up and bringing the heart to it. You know, I I often say the work that I do is like nothing about us without us. And what that means to me is that if you're going to make a decision about anybody's life or livelihood, they need to be actively involved in that decision. So, you can't just be making decisions for them. You have to ask them what they need and put them in the center of it.

[00:26:21]And so when you show up as an ally because you might have privilege to somebody, you ask them what would support look like to you? If I was going to value you and stand with you, what does that feel like to you so that you're understanding what they need?

[00:26:34]Because a lot of times you they don't need you to speak for them. They need you to amplify their voices or they need you to create space for them to have that opportunity. You don't always have to fight their battles and you don't have to speak for them. You just need to clear the path so that they feel like they can speak and they can show up in their most authentic way. And so that's what I really encourage people when you stand as an ally, you're asking that person, what does support look like and feel like to you and how can I be that for you in in the the worst moments of your life and also the best moments of your life.

[00:27:04]>> Oh man, I love that. Brian, >> that's why I let her do all the talking.

[00:27:09]She's so well spoken.

[00:27:12]>> No, that was really good. Well, and I I think about it and because as someone with in the adoption community, I work with women who are considering doing an adoption plan and they are in some of the most vulnerable, some of the hardest situations in the world. And and I often think I'm I should never swoop in and try to make decisions for them. Never.

[00:27:39]but they need support and help in such fundamental ways. How to do that while not disempowering them in any way. Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's and I love that you think about that, Donna, because not a lot of people think about that. You know, I I do a lot of work with nonprofits here in the Columbus, Ohio area. And one of the things we always talk about is meeting the needs of the clientele. And there's a lot of programming that goes on that people think, "Oh, I think this would be good for this person. I think this would be good for the community." I'm like, you think, but you're looking through your lens. What do they think? Right? And so, it's really a practice. And these are well-meaning people. So, don't don't get me wrong. What I know they're well-meaning. They want to help, but they're doing it through their vision and their lived experience, not the other person. And so, to be the most effective, you have to literally take the ego out of it. You It's not about you, it's about them. So, what can you do with your power and privilege to support them in the way they want to be supported?

[00:28:42]>> Oh, I just love that. And okay, and and in fact, I want to even go so far as to say, let's role play. Let's >> because because sometime it's really hard to get your ego out of things.

[00:28:56]Well, I'm going to go help them because I'm so valuable and I can do it.

[00:29:00]>> But instead, go up and say, how can I help you? And then they go, well, I don't know how you can help me. Well, let's look at your options. Le let's look at what options that you have. Um, you could do this, you could do this, and you could do this and say it in such a way that you don't try to sway them one way or another. And and then, okay, if you chose this particular way, this is what might happen. If you chose this, this is what might happen. And then honestly be able to say, and whatever you choose, I will support you in it.

[00:29:33]>> Absolutely. That's exactly right. It's that it's that old proverb that talked about, you know, if you give a person a fish, they'll eat for the day, but you teach a person to fish, they can eat for a lifetime. And so, that's a bit of it.

[00:29:45]It's like we have skills. All of us have skills and abilities that could be useful to other people. you know, one of the the the non one of the corporate uh partners that we use, they like to do a lot of give back, community give back, which is wonderful, and I love community give back. But sometimes it looks like painting, you know, a a a gymnasium or cleaning up a playground or or something of that or planting flowers. And I said, I love that. That's beautiful. But if you're in an accounting firm, why aren't you teaching people how to budget? If you're an accounting firm, why aren't you teaching people how to think about retirement or their or their or their or how do they do their taxes? Like, talk about the skills that you have that will benefit this person beyond a day, right?

[00:30:25]Don't think about the day of just cleaning up the campus or doing things.

[00:30:28]Think about a skill that you actually have that could be meaningful to this person that would literally change the trajectory of their lives. You got to start thinking like that. So, it's a matter of yeah, that person may not know exactly what support they have, but what skills do you have that you can offer to them and let them make that decision.

[00:30:44]So, it's just like you said.

[00:30:45]>> No, I I love that, Brian. Your thoughts?

[00:30:49]>> Uh, yeah, I was going to Yeah, conversation's great because through conversation, you get to know people and you know what they need and um and then you can help address, you know, whatever situation you need to address to help build them up and and pick them up. But, uh, I'm more of a visual learner. So, one of the things I do is I'm more of a if I see something, let's do something.

[00:31:07]And and we're talking about ego and privilege. And we had an incident in our our neighborhood. We had a we're 55% African-American in our community. And um we had an incident where there's a bunch of young kids around the corner who play basketball all the time. And we see them out there playing, but visually I was watching and I'm like, man, those kids having fun. You know, I I used to play basketball when I was a kid. But they had a broken backboard and there was a giant hole in it and like so every shot they had to shoot they had to hit it right in the bucket or just it just didn't count.

[00:31:38]>> I had to go chase the ball. Yeah. Lots of chasing. Lots of chasing the ball.

[00:31:44]>> But you know what I said? There's a bunch of kids who aren't getting in trouble. They're they're playing, you know, on the streets playing basketball.

[00:31:49]They got a broken hoop. And I told L, let's do something. They they didn't have to tell me they needed anything. I said, let's do something. And so we went and bought them a brand new uh basketball hoop and sat. And this is where the ego and the privilege come in check because I could have rolled up there as a white guy like, "Hey, you know, all these little black kids, I'm the white savior. Let me give you a basketball hoop." And I chose not to.

[00:32:10]And I asked my wife to come with me, had her knock on the door, had her off of them the basketball hoop, and I stayed back. Um because you have to you have to have an awareness of how that might present itself. And we just we just had the time of our every time we drove by them and we seen them playing and they were going oh it just it just tickled me to death. But you know understanding you know where you stand how it might look uh is important as well as the communication side of things. You know, I I I think and each of us I as we're listening to this, I hope each of us, and I'm going to do it myself, have to ask ourselves, can I do better at this? I I love where Brian, you stood back. You stood back and and and and you let your wife go forward. You let your wife do the negotiations so that they, you know, they felt comfortable. They felt like they weren't being saved. they they've how can we extend ourselves in ways that doesn't make us feel like oh look how good I am how do we do that um so that we benefit others without a grandizing ourselves >> yeah well something you said earlier was about empowering people you know here's the thing and that people want to to have things done with them not to them I mean I I talk about this in corporate spaces all the time because it's you make all these rules and policies and procedures, but you don't talk to the people who it's going to affect. Like people don't don't want that. There's a level of autonomy that people want to have because that autonomy builds pride.

[00:33:47]It builds confidence and it helps you build resilience because then you know if something happens that's, you know, challenging, whatever, you can get through it. You don't always need to be rescued, right? And so I think that's a bit bit of it. It's like watching somebody and then saying to them, what does power feel like to you? What does autonomy feel like to you? You know, when you make a decision, how does that make you feel? When you have a lot of information to make a decision, how does it make you feel? When you have very little information to make a decision, how does that make you feel? So, you're trying to really, you know, assess where that person is and then where maybe you can help them boost their confidence so they can feel empowered and their voices are heard, you know, versus you just taking over and say, "Well, I think this is going to be best for you, so I'm going to go do this." Right? That that does that takes their power away 100%.

[00:34:34]And so it also, you know, is something that Brian and I talked about today, learned helplessness. If you if you do something and you take their power away, then they're just always going to be like, "All right, well, somebody else is going to just tell them what to do or what to do anyway, so I don't have any drive or get up and go to go do something because it's going to be taken away from me anyway." But you give them that power. You let them build that confidence in themselves, and then they will be able to take on the world and anything that comes at a challenge, they know where to get support from, but they also know they can handle it.

[00:35:03]>> Yeah.

[00:35:04]So in your podcast, as you've gone done your podcast, how have you seen these principles play out?

[00:35:13]>> That's such a good question. I mean, we have had some of the most amazing guests, yourself included, but just learning from different people in their in their places. I mean, we had a young lady who was a power lifter who had a stroke and her whole left side of her body is paralyzed, but she's a powerlifter. I mean, how much encouragement does that make, right?

[00:35:39]When you think about somebody who is saying, "I don't care what you say my limitations are. I'm going to show you what I'm made of." I love that. You know, we had a young man who um has a Japanese um heritage and his grandfather was a part of the internment camp during World War II, lost everything and and they had to rebuild from that. So, that's a perspective that a lot of people don't think about. They think, "Oh, Pearl Harbor was such a long time ago, World War II." No, this is affecting people still today, right?

[00:36:07]We're still talking about these things, right? And so I think that's what's been so beautiful to us is that there's been things that we've learned ourselves. So to make us better people, but then we've also hope that the audiences who are listening are also learning and becoming better people because we feel like anybody if they're listening to our podcast, they already have an open heart and open mind, right? And so they're coming in to be be transformed. So we always want to offer them that ability to be transformed.

[00:36:34]>> I love that, Brian.

[00:36:36]>> Yeah. And we we in our podcast, we actually settled one of the greatest debates of all, whether the toilet paper goes up or down. And we came to that conclusion. We're interviewing a young lady, uh, Jenna was her name, and she suffers with arthritis. Is that correct, Ba?

[00:36:51]>> Yeah, she's arthritis. And yeah, she has really challenges with using her hands.

[00:36:55]>> So, you know, like when you go to a public restroom, they have the big shell around it. And she was telling us how she can't bend her arm to be able to reach the toilet paper. And I never thought about that at all. So I asked her the question, well which which is a proper proper way? And you'll have to listen to our podcast to find out. But she told me, >> well, I was trying to figure it out. So you had trouble bending your arc. Would it be better to come from the bottom or would it be better to get in there and come from the top?

[00:37:21]>> Yeah. Yeah. So basically that that's it.

[00:37:23]So you flip it where the paper rolls down, not under. You pull it down because it's easier for her to be able to hold with one arm and pull it with the other. So she can't reach under it.

[00:37:31]So you know what's so funny? After she said that to us, I cannot go into a public restroom and not look at it and say, "Is this able for somebody who's in a wheelchair who might have a challenge, mobility challenge with their hands to be able to to do?" And then I go talk to the manager and say, "Hey, what might be better is if you turn this in a different way or remove this casing because somebody in a wheelchair who has low no mobility with their hands can't reach the toilet paper." So, it's like it makes me more of an advocate at that point. I'm super excited. You're cracking me up because I can just see you going in. Now listen here. This is You need to fix this. I I love that >> she mentioned the uh the toilet paper so thin that when the last person uses it, you sometimes you just got to spin the roll till you find the edge. And she she don't have that ability to do that. So now for that, you know, I always pull a little bit out just for the next person.

[00:38:22]>> So So it's there. So Brian, I have to ask you, how has it been being married to this dynamo here? Oh lord. I'm just trying to keep up, man. I just I told you she's bouncing around the city all day today. So this probably this first time I've seen her since 8 o'clock this morning. I probably won't see her till 10 o'clock tonight.

[00:38:39]>> Oh, that is fun. That is so fun.

[00:38:42]>> He's the greatest, Donna. Let me tell you.

[00:38:44]>> Is he?

[00:38:45]>> He's the greatest.

[00:38:46]>> You seem like a good balance to each other.

[00:38:50]>> Well, it's funny that you say that because one of one of our friends, he calls uh Brian the rock and me the balloon where I lift Brian up and he holds me down. So it's good. So like we have that stability and support and that's 100% the truth. Like he is my backbone. Like there's nothing I can do in this world without his support and him always there to cheer me on. He is one of the my biggest fans, my biggest cheerleaders and I'm so grateful that I have we are in each other's orbit. It's really important.

[00:39:18]>> A that's nice of you. The same the same thing. I mean it's it's my partner and um you know I I couldn't imagine life without her. It's been so exciting 18 years now. It's been been a blast.

[00:39:29]>> Wonderful.

[00:39:31]>> And your kids are doing well.

[00:39:33]>> Oh, so good. They're entrepreneurs. They are doing beautiful things in the world.

[00:39:39]You know, like we like Ryan was saying, Jason owns his own salon, has been a successful entrepreneur for six years now, which is so beautiful. And AI is just now finding his footsteps. You know, he's graduated college two years ago. Has already been working on documentary films. He's up in Toronto right now doing film festivals. So, it's like to see our kids growing up and just being these well-rounded, beautiful leaders and and citizens of the world.

[00:40:06]It's so amazing.

[00:40:08]>> Shameless dad plug here. Uh Aie was working on a set with A&D for Monster House, so keep an eye out for that series coming out.

[00:40:14]>> Okay, we will. So, kind of in conclusion, if you were to give advice to people that are either considering a kinship adoption or are considering that they will be adopted by by a a parent, what would you say to them?

[00:40:34]>> That's a great question. Um, I would say keep your heart and your mind open. You know, there's so much in this life journey that happens that's unexpected, that's so beautiful and amazing, and it takes you on a journey that you could have never have hoped for or imagined.

[00:40:51]So, always just keep yourself open to the yeses of the world, and don't worry about the nos.

[00:40:56]>> I love that, Brian.

[00:40:58]>> Yeah, I think uh I think it's just understand is it's a it's a long-term process. Don't don't get into it uh get upset over something that might have happened one day and let that ruin the relationship. You got to be willing to grow uh with the adoption as much as the child is being adopted grows with you.

[00:41:16]And uh just be patient, understand love's going to come with that. You know, me and Aussie, we click like that.

[00:41:20]Me and my dad, it took us till I was an adult where we're we're click a little better. Um so be patient and allow the growth to to happen naturally. It'll happen.

[00:41:28]>> No, I love that. You guys, thank you so much. Thank you for being a part of this. Thank you for helping us as listeners see the world a little differently. Just just see the world not in black and white, but see not just the black and white issues, but the whole what does it mean to be family issues. Thank you for sharing those with us.

[00:41:51]>> Awesome.

[00:41:52]>> Thank you for having us, Donna. We really appreciate it.

[00:41:57]>> Thank you for listening to Voices of Adoption. I'm Donna Pope >> and I'm Nathan William. Every voice in the adoption triad deserves to be heard and understood.

[00:42:06]>> Visit voices ofadoption.org to subscribe and access additional resources and then join us next time as we continue to build bridges through conversation.