Why Mohammed Hanif uses satire to write about Pakistan | Scroll Adda

追加: 2026-06-04

[00:00:01][music] [music] >> I think it's a good state for a writer to be in, right? You can't be happy writer.

[00:00:13]>> That's what we were told and that's what I and sadly I think it's true.

[00:00:18]>> Is comparisons of the target Joseph Heller Joseph Heller come together up to >> So he one day sort of called me a pawn shop Shakespeare. So I think that was a good comparison.

[00:00:30]>> You had a line in an interview that says if you want to write about Pakistani politics, you have to write about it abroad.

[00:00:37]>> Living in London, you have you know that nobody's going to come knocking at your door to arrest you because you insulted like your field marshal.

[00:00:44]>> What is it about political satire that attracts you so much?

[00:00:48]>> I guess I'm very scared of authority. I think it's a way of dealing with that because in real life you can't take it on, [music] can you?

[00:00:56]Your prime minister Modi ji is whole hug game. Even the the way he sometimes dresses. Wasn't he on wildlife program once?

[00:01:05]>> I'm glad you said Modi ji.

[00:01:06]>> I I don't know if you remember or not there was this thing called Aman Ki Asha between Times of India [music] and this Jang Group. I was part of that racket also. Can you do like a bit of Aman Ki Asha in your newspaper because >> I think the only Aman Ki Asha left is now the Coke [music] Studio comments section.

[00:01:26]>> If myself and Chetan Bhagat have to resolve this India-Pakistan issue then you might as well forget it.

[00:01:33]>> What is the impression of Mr. Bhagat?

[00:01:34]>> Mr. Bhagat?

[00:01:36]>> [laughter] >> You're saying the Urdu translation of Khes Exploring Mangoes got you into trouble?

[00:01:40]>> There were raids by the intelligence agencies. They were like on booksellers, bookshops, my publisher's house at 2:00 a.m.

[00:01:50]>> What was in your book that got them so angry?

[00:01:53]>> It was something very filthy which is actually not in the book.

[00:01:56]>> So, basically Operation Sindhur last year has led internally in Pakistan to [music] a strengthening of army rule.

[00:02:03]>> Yes, it has. Even the army's critics, right? Some of them would say that, "Okay, it has its problem, but who is going to save us from Modi ji? This army." So, yeah, thank you, India.

[00:02:17]>> [music] >> I remember reading a case of Exploding Mangoes almost greedily in 2010.

[00:02:31]Here was a new desi writer nailing political satire.

[00:02:35]Since then, Mohammed Hanif has written three more novels masterfully blending politics and the absurdities of life.

[00:02:42]He so captured the genre that some have called him the Pakistani Joseph Heller.

[00:02:48]Hanif has a new novel out. It's called The Rebel English Academy.

[00:02:52]And he'll be talking about it and much more on this episode of Scroll Adda.

[00:02:57]Hi, Hanif Saab. Thank you so much for joining.

[00:02:59]>> Thanks for having me.

[00:03:01]>> His comparisons of the tug game Joseph Heller, Joseph Heller say to you.

[00:03:06]>> [laughter] >> Who would you like to I mean, one is Joseph Heller, but who do you compare yourself to as your models for writing?

[00:03:50]>> I I'm very impressionable. So, my job is to cut the path uh uh uh I see like to hear. So my foreign was just like no one but not shut up.

[00:04:00]My little bit short of 11 something. So he one day sort of called me a pound shop Shakespeare. So I think that was a good comparison.

[00:04:09]>> So you grew up in a small town in Punjab. I play I play air force officer to be a house key one say.

[00:04:17]Or about Do you think my show I don't want to give me a yacht and it's quite been quite a journey. Did you expect living in Okara as a 22 year old key as up is my comfort home.

[00:04:30]>> [laughter] >> I put any you can say my comfort home you can say who I got to know how much you want to join my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort So many people may tell me what can I make my comfort home you can say So I play my comfort home So my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort So my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say So my comfort home you can say my comfort So my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can So my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort So my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can So I drifted into journalism.

[00:05:21]So my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my And then after you do journalism for long enough, you kind of uh either you get disillusioned or depressed and uh So and I'd always read novels, loved reading novels and then if you do it long enough then I have to hear what you have to say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort home you can say my comfort Uh it started and that's how uh that's how it continues.

[00:05:52]>> But, how did you get this idea key Air Force to journalism is a huge gulf. But, after the market and make us give me my mother writer give me some guy writer.

[00:06:06]>> So, I was uh uh Pakistan uh Air Force had like great libraries.

[00:06:15]Uh so, whenever you wanted to disappear from the grid, you went and hid in the library because uh nobody was going to come looking for you in the library because you don't go to go join the Air Force to read books.

[00:06:30]Uh so, I became one of those people who just uh read a lot to escape from the harshness of uh harshness of that life.

[00:06:40]So, at some point I realized that uh this reading and writing thing this kind of suits me. Uh but, because I had grown up, I hadn't been through a uh a sort of normal education system where you do your bachelor and then your masters and first you kind of, you know, read classics and then somebody in a class teach tells you about literature.

[00:07:05]So, I was basically self-taught just libraries and picking up random books and and reading them. So, I didn't know like how and where uh to start. So, I had a friend who was working in a fashion magazine. So, I got a job in a fashion magazine. That was my first and and turned out that I was uh actually uh quite good at looking at clothes and interviewing models. Then somebody told me this is not real journalism. You need to do like, you know, more.

[00:07:40]So, I got to sort of what you call political reporting, crime reporting, which are usually the same thing I think in India uh uh too. So, I did that and then uh and I kept doing that and people sometimes would say nice things. I'm sure you're used to it.

[00:07:59]Uh so, journalists when they see their byline, they get a kick out of it. So, and I'm sure you still do and I still do. Uh so, uski adat see pad jati hai. Uh so, wahi karte karte uh then I always want to write a book. So, uh but had like no ideas. Kya likhna?

[00:08:17]And then this uh had thing had happened, this uh crash in which which killed I Gen. Zia and and a bunch of other uh generals. Mhm. So, as a journalist, I was curious, like, you know, sort of oh, this is the biggest mystery of my life. Every journalist wants to do like a big story. So, I thought this was a big scoop. So, I dug around, interviewed tried to interview people who were around, who might have known uh what actually happened. And either people weren't talking and the ones who were talking were just completely bullshitting me uh because uh so, it it became quite obvious that there were like cover-ups to cover cover-ups to cover cover-ups.

[00:09:01]Uh so, I realized that as a journalist, I'm never going to be able to uh crack it. So, I thought so, this is a ready-made uh murder mystery plot. So, what if I try and uh uh do it, dissolve it in a fictional uh kind of way. So, it started like one of those jokes that you kind of do in newsroom and then they kind of go on and on and on. That that's how the my my first book started.

[00:09:29]>> But tell us the truth, how did he actually die?

[00:09:33]>> [clears throat] [laughter] >> I think you have written the book, but what is the actual They're are complicated beasts. I've done my bachelor's in avionics.

[00:09:43]But still when I'm sitting in a commercial plane or when I used to sit in Air Force planes, I never quite believed that this thing would work because there are like a hundred thousand different parts. So one little kind of wiggle and the thing can go down.

[00:09:59]So I realized at some point that maybe all these theories that I'm kind of working up or I've heard or I'm making up, maybe they're all wrong. Maybe there was a there was an actual malfunction, you know, technical failure.

[00:10:16]But then you try and write a novel about a broken cable in an airplane's wing and you won't go very far with that.

[00:10:26]So I think that's one of the possibilities and I kind of think that might happen, but that's not that's not too much fun, is it?

[00:10:31]>> That's not too much. That's Nobody's going to write a novel on Mr. Zia's death on a cable fault.

[00:10:39]But I want to stop This is very interesting because I don't think a lot of it has been explored. I want to go back. You said you grew up in a village in Punjab in Pakistani Punjab. What is the name of the village?

[00:10:49]>> Village doesn't have a name, but it has a number. It's called 2 by 4 L.

[00:10:55]Some of your listeners readers might remember that in 1910-20s they made these canal colony colonies in in our part of the Punjab.

[00:11:07]So they brought in settlers from East Punjab because they thought that they were very hard working people and us natives were just just very very lazy and did not believe in this kind of agriculture and cash crops.

[00:11:20]So they gave numbers to these villages.

[00:11:24]2 by 4 L means that it's on the left side of the canal. So similarly you'll have villages with R and and various other.

[00:11:32]So, most most villages did come up with a name for their village, right? So, most villages have names, but the people in my village were so so hard working that they never actually got around to naming their own village.

[00:11:48]And we are we are we are okay with the 2 by 4 and we call us Do Chuks. So, that's that's where I grew up. Our family was into farming like every other other family.

[00:12:03]Education was like, you know, an exotic thing. Once a year, some boy from the village went to college.

[00:12:10]But, it wasn't something that we kind of aspired to do.

[00:12:14]But, I was one of those bookish types, you know, sort of who who read stories and read books.

[00:12:21]So, I think that and then there was this urge to run away from this this dull boring village life.

[00:12:30]>> 2 by 4 L.

[00:12:33]I'm very interested in your language journey. So, you grew up in in a in a completely Punjabi environment. And your home language is Punjabi. And you've done journalism in Urdu.

[00:12:44]And you write novels in English. That's a fantastic range. I I don't know very few I know a lot of South Asians live in multiple languages, but you you've actually worked in multiple languages.

[00:12:54]You actually now do even Punjabi journalism. I love your vlogs in Punjabi. My Punjabi is not great, but I can understand 80% of it.

[00:13:04]I'm sure I miss out some nuances that you're putting out.

[00:13:08]So, I think it's fascinating. Like, tell us like what Like, which language do you think in?

[00:13:13]You think in Punjabi, Urdu, English?

[00:13:16]>> I'm trying to think now and what language I I I think you know, obviously, when I'm I'm writing in Punjabi, I think in Punjabi. When writing in Urdu, I I write in Urdu.

[00:13:28]When I'm trying to write in English or speak in English, then I speak I think I think in like various languages and they kind of some part of my brain translate them.

[00:13:40]So, in Pakistan, Punjabi is not taught in schools.

[00:13:44]So, my home language is still it's Punjabi. All my friends do we when we speak we speak in Punjabi. So, when you go to school at the age of five or six, suddenly you have to learn Urdu.

[00:13:56]So, a five, six-year-old has a vocabulary because he knows things. So, all that knowledge that you've learned first five, six years of life becomes redundant. And then you learn Urdu and then you go to college where everything is taught in English.

[00:14:13]So, it's a In a way, it's a sort of if you go if you don't go through like the posh education system, if you don't go through go to posh private school, this is a kind of a normal regular journey for people from my background or my my generation that you will end up I'm sure in India also most people are bilingual.

[00:14:39]And because of this added So, I think if you call this an advantage that I'm able to uh uh work in three languages, it's it's it's a result of bad education. I think that that I have gone through. If I had gone through like a a posh private school, I would be learning English from from age five and then I'll be that that will be my my language. But, because I've kind of you know moved around quite quite a bit, Punjabi I have journalism I've uh I started recently. You know, char panch saal ho gaye. So, so that in a way is a kind of a discovery of sorts because uh so I've been doing this journalism forever, like 30 years, and writing books for 15 years. So, nobody in my village because I don't do TV.

[00:15:38]People only see journalism on TV, so they've always been a bit suspicious.

[00:15:43]But you know, sort of he lives in Karachi or sometime in London. Kabhi do teen saal mein TV pe nazar aa jata hai.

[00:15:50]You know, he got an award but what is it because they've never kind of seen my work. English journalism they kind of you know, don't care about.

[00:15:59]Uh if I'm writing in Urdu even they don't have access to that. But since I started doing this Punjabi thing, I have in my own village finally recognized as a bonafide journalist. Like people shop and people in parks and streets.

[00:16:18]Oh, that oh you have that person and suddenly people watch your watch your videos. Which is kind of a which is a nice feeling. And the other thing about is that you do journalism in English and I've done journalism in English or you write novels in English. So, there's like a certain kind of person who or who who is your reader, right? And it's like it is very limited. It comes from certain class. They're mostly like-minded like-minded people.

[00:16:48]But here suddenly it's like completely different kind of audience. Security guards at banks, like you know, policemen, pan ki dukan wale. So, so you have like a completely different kind of feedback and interactions from from these people.

[00:17:07]>> So, you're saying your Punjabi journalism actually has a lot of mass appeal in Pakistan. Like it's it's very >> Yes, I said this is the first time as I said I've been a journalist uh my life.

[00:17:16]This is the first time that I'm actually uh uh recognized some >> [laughter] >> first time actually people take me seriously in my own >> own village.

[00:17:27]>> I mean the the the system you described exists in India also. In many Hindi states, people will have different mother tongues. Pahari hoga, kisi ka Awadhi hoga, etc. They go to school, they have to learn Hindi, and then of course if they need to, you know, reach another elite tier, what you Pakistanis have a lovely term, burger.

[00:17:45]So, if they want to become burgers in India [laughter] so, they'll have to learn English.

[00:17:51]>> From roti to bun kebab to burger.

[00:17:54]>> [laughter] >> Exactly.

[00:17:55]>> That is the journey.

[00:17:56]>> That is the journey. So, that's exactly Do you think this is an unfair system though that, you know, a language as big as Punjabi in Pakistan has no has no literary world?

[00:18:07]>> It messes up uh a lot of people's uh education. I knew, for example, I went to primary school in my village. There were some very bright boys.

[00:18:18]But as soon as they went to high school, and there was like this serious Urdu learning because in all of you were being taught in Urdu, but even Urdu was being taught in Punjabi. You know, the teachers themselves uh couldn't speak properly. So, this So, half of them would never like, you know, cut it in high school. And then by the time they start learning English, then most of them would never uh be able to crack that. And then, you know, sort of uh another 50% is is is left is left out. So, I think the system is kind of designed in a way to keep people out rather than, you know, sort of to get uh them education. I mean, I'm seeing uh lots of very wise successful uh people who uh who who just do all their business in in Punjabi, and they are they're doing fine, but you never see them like you know sort of either in these with these so-called educated classes or in the literary world.

[00:19:22]So yeah, that that so obviously it is it is very unfair.

[00:19:25]>> Yeah, totally. And when I think there's a big scientific consensus that at least initial education should only be in mother tongue as far as possible. You know, as you said if you send us 5-year-old and teach him in a language that he doesn't know, >> And nobody speaks it at all. Nobody >> Nobody speaks it at all. Yeah, yeah. I remember I done a piece a long time back and there was a Kashmiri teacher who said you similar to in Kashmir they used to learn Urdu, but the thing is at home nobody speaks Urdu at all or English.

[00:19:53]>> Yes, yeah.

[00:19:54]>> The government Kashmiri people there. So yeah, we know other languages like Dogri and so on. And she said there was such a big just to teach that kid a little concept it used to be such a big effort cuz he was a smart kid or she was a smart kid.

[00:20:08]But You have you have another level of abstraction which is more than language you have also now an abstraction of geography.

[00:20:19]You are Now you are sitting in I think London.

[00:20:23]You don't live in Pakistan anymore. How has that been for you? Do you think it affects your writing because so much of your writing is rooted in Pakistan?

[00:20:32]Is rooted in It's not rooted in I mean it interacts with the West. We all interact with the West, but it's rooted in Pakistan. Do you think that's affecting you badly? Has it improved you?

[00:20:42]What has it done to you as a writer?

[00:20:45]>> I I think it gives you distance if you are writing fiction.

[00:20:51]So which is a good thing. It gives you physical distance and distance in terms of in terms of time. So which is a good thing. As a journalist it's a bit of a a handicap.

[00:21:04]You need to be uh on the on the streets, you need to be uh you know, uh talking to people or interacting with them uh on everyday basis, even if you're uh not reporting. Uh so, that is a disadvantage, but uh I was in Pakistan for about 12 years, so I've recently uh moved here uh because of family reasons.

[00:21:31]And uh but I go back quite uh quite frequently. Uh so, it I don't think it has had uh much impact. Of course, uh you're less scared when you're uh uh uh sitting uh in London and writing about Pakistan. Uh you are uh probably sometimes or that's how you flatter yourself that you can see things more uh objectively.

[00:22:00]Uh uh but uh yes, you miss uh you miss that daily interaction that you have with people when you are uh living there.

[00:22:11]>> Do you miss talking in Punjabi and Urdu?

[00:22:13]Like >> Yeah, I But um all my closest friends, we talk in Punjabi.

[00:22:22]Uh in my family, some of them we speak in Urdu or English, a mixture of languages as people do.

[00:22:29]Uh uh but yes, there's a level of comfort like when you are amongst your own people. Uh there's a level of comfort, but there's a level of despair as well because you end up hearing people's stories of their miseries uh that they have to uh live through.

[00:22:52]Uh but yes, here I there's obviously a level of comfort when you're talking uh in your mother tongue because there are lots of references that you don't have to explain to uh explain to anybody. You will say a one line or you will and they will get the the whole kind of background and and what you try to >> Well, luckily you're in London, one of the world's greatest Punjabi cities, so not it could be worse.

[00:23:19]>> [laughter] >> Yes, yeah, yeah, you come to Heathrow Airport and seem like you've come to Ludhiana. So, yeah.

[00:23:26]>> Yeah. And yeah, you over hear so much Urdu, Hindi, and Punjabi. I think just walking around London it it it can be quite quite interesting.

[00:23:34]>> Uh no, yeah, London that way is is one of those cities where you find lots of Indian Pakistanis and there are lots of people of older generation who speak no English and they live in big comfort.

[00:23:45]>> I want to come back to what you said you went So, you you you went back to Pakistan. You were actually in the UK for 12 years, '96 to 2008, and then you moved to Pakistan for more than a decade. How was it?

[00:23:58]I don't know, you know, foreign return, was it was it a shock?

[00:24:02]>> It was like this this is like such a typical case of a buyer job there. I came here because I came here because I had a job there. My plan was that I'd stay there for a couple of years. London would be like nice.

[00:24:15]Uh but then two became four and four became six and before you know you think, "Oh my god, I am now an immigrant or an expat or whatever." And you don't like that label. So, I we went back and we were there for for 12 years.

[00:24:32]And it was great in the beginning as it's usually is.

[00:24:38]There was a period of transition. Some bad things were happening, some good things were happening. We had had a martial law of General Musharraf. So, he was like on his way out. So, then this happened. There's like a suddenly of optimism, however fake Uh is. there's a lot of excitement, openness that you can now talk, you can say things that you didn't used to.

[00:25:06]Um you also had written my first novel which was a a bit of a uh a bit of a success in Pakistan. So you become this minor celebrity. You kind of go to festivals and people recognize you in bookshops, etc. Uh so it was very pleasing. You suddenly become like, you know, something like people want your opinions on on stuff. So so yeah, that it it felt nice. And then you kind of hanging out with your old childhood friends, walking the same streets. So uh so yeah, it was it was great.

[00:25:42]>> Do you miss Pakistan now? You've been back for quite quite a few years now.

[00:25:45]>> Well, as I said, I go back quite a lot.

[00:25:49]So it is not that kind of missing that you had when you knew that you were stuck here because I I still might go back. We are like I think we're like one of those ungrateful immigrants that you know, if if we find some work in Pakistan, go Pakistan, find some work in London, we'll come to London. If you're in Pakistan, we'll curse Pakistan. If you're in London, we'll curse London. So we will be unhappy wherever we are. There used to be this great Urdu poet Munir Niazi.

[00:26:29]So his couplet, let me see if I can remember.

[00:26:32]I don't think I know the lyrics to Munir this song. I don't know the lyrics to Munir this song. So I think that's the kind of state of state of mind.

[00:26:40]>> I think it's a good state for a writer to be in, right? You can't be a happy writer.

[00:26:44]>> I That's what we were told and that's what and sadly it's true.

[00:26:49]>> I'm going to you said something very interesting and I'm going to pin put a pin in it and come back to it later about having the freedom to talk about Pakistan while sitting in the UK. I want to but don't jump into your craft as a writer what you said.

[00:27:02]You've you know you're seen as this master of satire. When people read Muhammad Hanif then the name they immediately the first thing that comes to mind is satire.

[00:27:12]Especially political satire. What is it about political satire that attracts you so much? Is it is it like a very good medium to tell the stories of Pakistan or am I reading too much into it?

[00:27:24]>> I think journalists like us we have to name names like you know we have to put things in in in category. So when uh I'm writing a novel for example mhm I don't wake up every day thinking oh today I'm going to write satire.

[00:27:46]Uh but obviously there's a certain way of looking at uh mhm at power at society at authority.

[00:27:57]It's kind of uh uh how they interact. So I think that's probably I have I'm I guess I'm very scared of uh authority.

[00:28:08]Uh so I have like that uh that lifelong problem. So I I think it's a way of uh dealing with that because in real life you can't take it on can you you know. So you kind of try and do it on the page.

[00:28:25]And if it turns out to be uh funny uh I think that's not that's not a bad bad thing.

[00:28:34]Uh but this as I said is not uh the plan. I find the the way we kind of way our powerful people uh uh, assert their power and then fumble uh, I think that is uh, I find that quite funny and scary at the at the same time. Uh, I mean, for example, your uh, your Prime Minister Modi ji, if you kind of, you know, sort of uh, watch some of the things that he does, it is funny, right? You know, sort of his whole hug game. Even the way sometimes he he he dresses. Wasn't he on a wildlife wildlife program once? So, so that those bits are funny. You don't have to You don't have to use satire to see that it's funny. But on the other hand you see that what is uh, actually happening and that is quite scary. Uh, so I think I live somewhere between these two or two realities that uh, or or this thing is scary, but maybe you kind of make yourself laugh to deal with it.

[00:29:44]And you hope that you will get get away with it.

[00:29:47]>> I'm glad you said Modi ji. Uh, but uh, but you basically what you're saying is that satire is a sort of shield for you.

[00:29:55]You can You can say the things that you want to say. And then if someone comes after you, you'll say, "Ah, I'm just I was just I was just joking." Is that [clears throat] what you're saying?

[00:30:03]>> getting Yeah, yeah. But now I think they're getting wiser. They They couldn't uh, they get the They get the joke. I I since we're talking about uh, jokes, I My first book that you mentioned, The Case of the Missing Mango, so it was translated uh, 10 years after it came out in English.

[00:30:23]So, it was lying with a publisher, the Urdu translation. And I was trying to reassure him. I said, "The book has been out for 10 12 years. Nobody's ever bothered me. Like, you know, I'm fine.

[00:30:34]It's being taught in some schools and colleges." Uh, so he was like, "Yeah, you may be right, but you don't know. Sometime it takes some 10 years to get the joke.

[00:30:45]And And when the book came out, we got into a lot of trouble. So, he was in in a way right. So, you would this this this excuse that we kind of pretend that oh, we only will get away with it because we only joking. So, we used to be able to get away with it, but increasingly I think it's it's it's difficult like they don't laugh at your jokes. They they say you're you're not funny.

[00:31:12]>> Tell us more. You're saying the Urdu translation of "Case of Exploding Mangoes" got you into trouble?

[00:31:16]>> Yes, yeah.

[00:31:17]They were raids by the intelligence agencies. They were like on booksellers, book shops, my publisher's house at 2:00 a.m. 2:00 a.m. in the morning.

[00:31:29]etc. >> And this is happening what around 2018?

[00:31:32]10 years is that, right?

[00:31:35]>> Yeah, it was uh Yeah, it was 2019, I think. I I don't remember exactly, yeah, but it was like 5 5 5 6 years ago. Yes, yeah.

[00:31:44]>> Did you face any heat?

[00:31:48]>> Yeah, so you see how the system works is that they went to my publisher's house. They raided the publisher's manager's house.

[00:31:59]They went to book shops and picked up all the books. And then I get a message that don't you think we know we don't know where you live? I don't know what you think, but he know, but we respect you so much that we can't even ring your bell.

[00:32:18]So, that's a way of that's another way of of of of of threatening somebody without threatening them. That we respect you so much that we can't even threaten you, but we know where you where you are. So, then we had a meeting with them.

[00:32:35]And they kind of They were very >> And when you say them, you mean the Pakistani army?

[00:32:41]>> Pakistani intelligence people. Yeah, that's cuz you you never know they're in civvies, so you don't know like what what rank or what they are. But they were responsible people and they said they were just carrying out their orders and there's nothing personal. So I kind of said like still what's the problem? And they said oh when your book came out in English, it was very funny and fashionable.

[00:33:00]Uh but you know, sort of in Urdu these things sound vulgar.

[00:33:05]I was like okay, yeah. You have a point.

[00:33:07]So so >> So what were I but I'm curious what what what was in your book that got them so angry?

[00:33:15]>> Uh they won't tell me and what they told me I don't think I can say on your podcast because I'm sure there there are families and nice people who listen to this.

[00:33:28]>> Right. Got it.

[00:33:30]>> It was something very filthy which is actually not in the book.

[00:33:33]So >> Right.

[00:33:35]>> I was like what are you even talking about? It's not in the book. They said but it is in your book.

[00:33:42]I said like then some some readers have filthy mind like you know they can just make up stuff that you haven't even written.

[00:33:47]>> So it was nothing to do with the army.

[00:33:49]It was based on morality. Is is is am I getting that right? Like is it was based on moral considerations?

[00:33:56]>> Yes, completely. Matters of taste.

[00:34:00]>> Right.

[00:34:01]Wow. Okay, that is I mean I haven't read the Urdu but I've read Kissing the Mirror of Exploding Mangoes in English and I do not follow this but clearly there's something >> think this happens in India as well that there's stuff that you can say in English but you can't say the same stuff same stuff in Hindi or Punjabi like you know so there are levels of kind of you know sharam o haya. There's like parda.

[00:34:23]There's like you know uh uh you can say sex in English and you know sort of nobody will bat an but you sort of try saying it like that in Punjabi and then see what happens.

[00:34:35]>> 100% There's actually a very good I'll send it to you later. There's a very good uh stand-up called Biswa Biswa Kalyan Rath. And he has a lovely stand-up of uh doing erotic talk in Hindi versus English. And he's saying the same thing that you say in English sounds so sexy, but as soon as you say it in Hindi they sound vulgar, right?

[00:34:54]>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:56]>> So, exactly. And I think it works actually across many things. I think English language journalists in India, probably true even for Pakistan and South Asia in general, we I think have a shield which is greater than uh Hindi language journalists and Bengali language journalists, right? But I don't want to like Please, this is not an invitation to test out the shield, but I'm just saying in general in theory, I think we have a greater shield than uh say a small-town Hindi journalist in Bihar.

[00:35:26]So, I think it works on many levels, both on morality, but generally English is seen as a language of power, so you can say bad things across >> [laughter] >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're cool.

[00:35:40]And uh if you say the same things in in in and if you're looking at native languages, then you're kind of, you know, just >> 100% You spoke about something very interesting that the first time you are being recognized in Pakistan because of your Punjabi vlogs.

[00:35:54]You know, you know, you you are a now you know, pretty well-known novelist, but I think a large part of your readership actually resides out of Pakistan.

[00:36:05]What is that like? Does it affect you as a writer when you're sitting down to >> So, what's the what's the mayor of that?

[00:36:11]Like, for example, it might be true about uh mm novels that are uh okay, I've been published here in America and various other countries, so probably uh that is true, but we we read novels from, you know, sort of all over the all over the world. So, I I don't think that kind of changes the way you write novel, right? It's a very intimate, personal thing. You can't be guessing that, you know, sort of what is somebody sitting in a suburb of Berlin kind of will get it or not. You can't You can't worry about that. It's like that really deeply personal thing.

[00:36:54]As far as the journalism is concerned, I I would think that most of my readership is in Pakistan, especially with Urdu and Punjabi or diaspora. So, I I don't really I haven't really because you can't really second-guess that what is your reader going to like or not like or or or So, I I haven't kind of bothered too much about it. You have like a close circle of uh friends and readers and haters. And you kind of think that if it pleases them, if they're if they find it engaging, >> [snorts] >> if they say it's good, then, you know, sort of maybe it has a place in the wider wider psyche.

[00:37:39]>> That's very interesting because I think as journalists, we are very different because we are always very cognizant about what we're writing.

[00:37:45]>> As journalists, we completely know our readership. We know who who reads crawl like, you know, mostly they're they're people like, you know, sort of who are like-minded or people who kind of, you know, want to torment you and they're they're basically stalking you.

[00:37:57]They put your name This This This guy is kind of after us. So, so you know your you know your readership. With novels, you have like you have no idea like who where it's going to end up at what time and what point in their life. So, I I And you can't I I I can't can't second-guess that that I should write to this person's uh sensibility. Once the publisher told me that you know who reads most of your books? I said, "Who?"

[00:38:34]He said, "German women."

[00:38:37]I said, "Really?" He said, "German women like who are 50 plus." I said, "Why? And how do you know this?" He said, "Because they are the ones who have time and money."

[00:38:47]Uh and they have less uh work. So, I can't sit on my writing desk and think of a German woman in a suburb, like you know, what is it that she wants from me?

[00:39:03]Because that can't happen.

[00:39:04]>> Are you though on the subject of writing?

[00:39:08]Do you want to move beyond the Pakistani political satire novel?

[00:39:13]>> I always I always do that. Once I tried to uh tried to set a novel like in a planet far, far away, like in space and like after page five, it started look like Karachi.

[00:39:29]Uh so, ho ho Uh and similarly, I kind of think that, "Oh, I should write like a happy story."

[00:39:34]And then by page 13, somebody's dying or being tortured. Uh so, I guess I must have uh my either limitations or my interests.

[00:39:46]Uh but yeah, I'm always uh thinking of moving beyond beyond this, like you know, sort of uh this place and and thinking of thinking of other things, but you know, sort of kind of pulls you back somehow.

[00:39:59]>> You spoke of your leadership amongst German women in their 50s.

[00:40:04]You're also very popular in India. I don't I have no stats to back it up, but generally based on anecdotal information, I think in my in my circle, you would be a highly recognized writer.

[00:40:15]What do you feel about that?

[00:40:16]>> Tarif kisko uh achhi lagti hai duty?

[00:40:20]>> But I I used to go to come to India a lot like for my first two books. They were like festivals in every city and so So I was like always on a on a junket and I would get uh uh to hear lovely things about uh my books and meet some lovely people, some very strange people also. I remember this I was at a festival and then there was a Q&A session.

[00:40:50]Mhm.

[00:40:51]Person sort of stood up and asked me if I was circumcised and I wasn't I wasn't I've never heard that kind of literary question uh before. And uh mhm but generally people have been nice. I I don't know if you remember or not there was this uh thing called Aman Ki Asha between Times of India and this Jang Group, this media group from Pakistan. They kind of They were collabing on bringing India and Pakistan together through dialogue and through uh through meetings and so I was I was part of that racket also for a bit so I come to gone to Mumbai and they >> [snorts] >> uh said schedule have a session with you and Chetan Bhagat.

[00:41:44]Uh which we did which was lovely but I was also thinking that if uh if myself and Chetan Bhagat have to resolve this India-Pakistan issues then you might as well might as well forget it.

[00:42:02]So yeah, I have some lovely memories of of India and I'm I'm glad to hear that people still want to want to read my stuff.

[00:42:12]>> No, I'm that's a fascinating anecdote about Aman Ki Asha. Aman Ki Asha of course is now it's it's attacked in India. I think the only Aman Ki Asha left is now the Coke Studio comments section.

[00:42:24]>> [laughter] >> So >> Yeah, no, it's it's it was a racket as I said it was a racket and I knew I was part of it because got a free beat to go to go to Mumbai who can say no to that.

[00:42:39]But yeah, even then it was it was a bit of a it was a bit of a racket smoke screen like Times of India Jung Group like I told editors there was meeting I said can't you first ask your open open writers to kind of calm down a bit before can you do like a bit of Aman Ki Asha in your newspapers?

[00:43:00]And then maybe we can I mean Chetan Bhagat can fix the rest but but no that that didn't happen. They were like very very nationalistic role like you know sort of empty India and then Times of India also say anti-Pakistan. So so they didn't they didn't change anything on that back front we just want to have like a like a little session with writers and and a party afterwards which is not a bad thing. I I am not complaining.

[00:43:25]>> What is your impression of Mr. Bhagat?

[00:43:27]>> Mr. Bhagat >> [laughter] >> I I think [snorts] he sells a lot of books. He was very very honest.

[00:43:36]And he said we will create some controversial I'll ask you controversial questions. I said like what?

[00:43:42]So he said I will ask you why are the Mum- Mumbai actresses so much in love with uh Pakistani underworld dons?

[00:43:56]And I said I thought they like loved Imran Khan or Fawad Khan nature.

[00:44:01]Which So he named somebody called Abu Salem.

[00:44:06]So I said isn't he Indian?

[00:44:08]He said, "But you know what I mean."

[00:44:10]>> [laughter] >> So, so this this conflating sort of Indian Muslims with Pakistanis was like quite blatant even in those in those good times uh good times uh as well. Uh but but yeah, he's he was like uh he's like a force of nature and idiocy and kind of, you know, so >> He has he has he has he has absolutely changed book publishing in India.

[00:44:39]>> Yeah, yeah. Everybody Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:44:41]He's writing for Yeah, he was quite blatant about it that he's writing for people who don't read and there's a big market There's a big market uh for that.

[00:44:50]>> It is the biggest market.

[00:44:52]>> [snorts] >> I want to come back to what you had earlier said that, you know, in fact about writing about Pakistan in the UK. In fact, in 2018 you had a line in a Guardian interview which says, "If you want to write about Pakistani politics, you have to write about it abroad."

[00:45:09]>> You know, when you're talking to journalists, you should you should you should think before what you speak. I was living in Pakistan.

[00:45:16]>> Right.

[00:45:16]>> And was writing about Pakistan from Pakistan books as well as as well as journalism. So, I don't know what the context was, but obviously uh as I said earlier, when you're kind of living in London, you have you know that nobody's going to come knocking to your door to arrest you because you insulted like your field marshal or you kind of, you know, similarly uh I'm sure it's probably true about uh India as well from what little I know. I had like an Indian friend visiting. We were sitting in a pub and every time she she wanted to mention Modi ji's name, they would lower their voice and I had to I had to say, "Don't worry.

[00:45:55]Nobody's going to do anything here.

[00:45:58]Khul ke baat kar lo."

[00:45:59]Uh so, obviously those kind of uh psychological uh fears are less.

[00:46:09]So, in a way, it becomes might become easier.

[00:46:16]Because you all kind of feel this this sense of safety, personal safety.

[00:46:23]Because uh Because there are people who kind of are in in jail or facing court cases for for just simply doing a tweet or writing an article or doing a social media post.

[00:46:35]Uh so, obviously, it it helps that if you have that physical distance.

[00:46:42]>> Thank you for again saying Modi ji, but have things gotten worse? So, if you're talking about India in the last 10 years, I think there is no doubt about it that things have gotten worse. Do you think things have gotten worse in Pakistan? It seems like the army is kind of on the ascendant. Again, Mr. Khan is in jail or was it always like this?

[00:47:02]>> Yeah, so again, allow me one more time to use uh uh Modi ji's name because I think what we have now is the field marshal, he's he's Modi ji's gift uh to us.

[00:47:18]We've had our our problem, civil military problem. There's always this search for this this this balance, but what happened last year, now we have no way to go.

[00:47:30]>> You're talking about Operation Sindhu.

[00:47:32]>> Yeah, and obviously, they they they keep going on about Pakistan being a hard state.

[00:47:38]And which means that any critics although ostensibly you have a democratic uh uh government, but people are in in in in sort of jails and facing court cases for just doing a mild criticism of of of the of the state of affairs in the country.

[00:48:02]Uh it's because they feel uh hm they feel strong to have they feel emboldened that they they can deal with the uh with this uh 10 times bigger uh neighbor. Uh surely these uh these these little uh human rights activists or these lawyers or these journalists like you know so they are they are no problem. They can do whatever they want to do with them.

[00:48:24]>> Remarkable thing that you're saying is that basically operation Sindoor last year has led internally in Pakistan to a a strengthening of army rule.

[00:48:34]>> Yes, it has and uh to an unprecedented uh uh level uh because uh what is the even the army's critics, right? Uh which are many in Pakistan.

[00:48:48]Uh some of them would say that okay, it has its problem, but who is going to save us from Modi ji? The army.

[00:48:56]So so yeah, thank you, India.

[00:48:59]>> What do you think about Imran Khan? Do you feel Do you feel what's happening to him is unfair? We've had reports that he's he's he's been in solitary confinement.

[00:49:08]>> He's a definitely he's a uh political uh prisoner. Uh uh There should be no doubt about that.

[00:49:17]Uh and the state uh I think uh has the capacity in Pakistan every single prime minister at some point in their career has gone to jail. That is a almost like you it's a resume requirement. It's a job requirement. Uh that will happen to you if you want to rule Pakistan. You will end up in jail. Uh at some point.

[00:49:37]Some have been in jail twice. Some have been in jail twice. Uh but how the system worked was that at some point after a few years uh the army will have to make a deal with them. And somehow either they will go into exile or they will return to power.

[00:49:54]Uh because let's put it this way that state did not have the capacity to keep a popular leader in jail for a very long time.

[00:50:05]Uh but I think now it does. And now that's my fear. That's my That's my suspicion. Uh because uh Uh what Imran Khan thought that his millions of his supporters will just uh will just tear everything apart uh and bring him out. Uh some of them did come out. They were thrashed very badly. Some are in prison, some are ran away, some are just sitting at home and sulking. Uh so that uh did not happen. Uh so since then uh I think uh they they think that they can keep him in there for as long as they want. They don't need to make any deal with him.

[00:50:49]They don't need to give him any any concessions.

[00:50:52]>> Given this, do you fear for Imran Khan's life?

[00:50:55]>> I don't fear for his life. He's probably fitter than you and me ever will be. And you know, sort of like when you send these uh uh health freaks to jails, what they do, they have all the time in the world uh to So uh So I I don't fear uh for his life, but I I do fear like that uh uh that he could be in jail for for a very very uh long time.

[00:51:21]>> That's some uh trademark Hanif Saab dark humor to end this interview.

[00:51:27]Thank you so much for joining us, uh Mohammed Hanif. This was a lovely interview. I really enjoyed talking to you, and I'm sure our viewers enjoyed listening to you.

[00:51:35]>> Thank you, Shaid. Thank you very much.

[00:51:37]Thank you for having me.

[00:51:39]>> Guys, if you like what you heard, please go to scroll.in/contribute so that we can continue to do independent journalism in India. Thank you for watching.