What An FBI Veteran Sees In The Nancy Guthrie Case

Added: 2026-05-27

[00:00:01]This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Brusky [music] and Robin Dreke.

[00:00:09]Now more than 100 days after Nancy Guthrie was abducted from her Tucson home, Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos made a striking admission recently. He is no longer communicating directly with the victim's family.

[00:00:24]What does that mean for this? There's a lot of ways to to read that. A lot of people have been talking about it online and over on Break the Case with Jennifer Coffindaffer, who happens to be with us today.

[00:00:38]I'm curious Jen as we begin discussing all this and this development of Nanos no longer in direct communication with the Guthrie family including Savannah and her siblings.

[00:00:52]What exactly what exactly does that mean? I know you've been tweeting a lot about it in this last week.

[00:00:59]Well, you know, it's interesting Tony because these are spontaneous utterances that Sheriff Nanos is so well known for.

[00:01:09]And I really think he wishes he could just rewind and either not address that question or address it more opaque.

[00:01:19]But basically to me that's just saying they don't want to talk to him. Because I've never been in in a situation ever where the family doesn't want to talk to you or you don't have the lines of communication and remember he does say they're speaking with the FBI. So it says a lot.

[00:01:37]Yeah, and you know me like always I just looked up the stat on this. So this only happens where the sheriff breaks contact with the victims victims family like only 15 20% of the time max. I mean it's it's kind of like that office if anyone ever watches The Office the sitcom where they give Michael Scott a practice run first with They're a phone and it's fake and then he hangs up and he starts again and it's better the second time. I think that's Nanos and incarnate. He really needs a do-over on everything he says.

[00:02:02]He needs a mute button. That's what he needs. And he he needs to he needs to exercise the mute button and then take a second before things come out of his mouth. Some people just don't really have that very well. I feel like he's one of them where it's like maybe well-intentioned but let's let's learn how to message more effectively.

[00:02:20]>> You think that'd be the self-awareness aspect of it because he's been able to hide I think behind a lot of successes in the past by his department I think and also like Jen always says is that, you know, you always go down to the people on the ground doing the gritty hard work and he's got some decent people, at least in the past he has. And but in this one, no, he is way as an outlier by breaking comms with the with the victim's family.

[00:02:43]He had said it works both ways. Um okay, I guess that, you know, that makes sense if the the family doesn't want to to speak with them. I get, you know, we're getting into the territory of of conjecture and opinion, but why did why I mean uh maybe I have some ideas, but I'm curious what yours are, Jen. Why would they not want to be speaking with the local sheriff that is heading, you know, the investigation into the disappearance of their own mother?

[00:03:09]Well, when I've seen this happen in the past, it's typically because the family keeps wanting more information, wanting more information and I've seen this before in a lot of missing cases actually and maybe that is what accounts for your statistic there where uh law enforcement would just close it off uh in missing cases because they're constantly being irritated or they get irritated with all the questions. But [snorts] I don't think that's the situation here. I really believe it's because uh they have lost faith in perhaps uh how he's communicating with them and they'd rather just hear from the FBI and at least have a a understanding of the messaging.

[00:03:52]And how do you think that's going?

[00:03:53]Because I know FBI's not lead on this, you know, we're in a supporting role.

[00:03:57]How much new information do you think they're able to give the Guthries and is it relevant to them? I mean, and whose point on that do you think? Because they're not they don't have a command post on site anymore. So, is it going to be out of the field office that's local there? I mean, what do you think?

[00:04:10]Well, absolutely the first thing in any missing case is that I did as a case agent, one of the first things was I wrote that EC to get the victim witness coordinator involved and have a very specific person that is trained to manage people who are, you know, going through the grieving process and who are very upset, deal with them. And that way the case agent never really has to deal with them at all and the victim witness coordinator then can speak with us and then we can kind of filter through them in a very manageable way to the family that's understanding for their needs.

[00:04:45]So, that's what I think how it's happening. Yeah, the victim witness program is amazing. It's important. I remember when I stand up I'm in even John Douglas in one of his books, was it him or Gavin de Becker? Either way, I think it might have been Gavin de Becker's Get the Fear. Both of them I think talked about the importance of that and how it was stood up. I wonder, I'm going to look it up right now, whether Nanos's department even has one.

[00:05:06]Is there anything here that that, you know, could it impede the investigation with them not having or is this more just again, like you said, it's it's Nanos speaking out loud? I'm if there was some sort of development or some reason they needed to communicate with the family, I would imagine that line is still open. I mean, I guess the FBI is there, but if for some reason Nanos's department needed to communicate, there's other people there other than Nanos. And Nanos didn't say the department's not speaking, he said he's not speaking with them. So, I'm wondering again, I mean, as you said at the beginning, is this just really there's not a lot of of of grit to this statement other than Nanos speaking aloud and everybody going, "Huh?"

[00:05:50]Yeah, you know, I think that the FBI is likely the overall conduit on on this case between with the Guthries. And I think uh Sheriff Nanos, I doubt if he's going to give them a call based on what he himself said. So, uh I would look that if he has a question for them or information he needs, I think the FBI is that conduit. Yeah, and and they do have a um victim witness department inside of Pima County. So, yeah, and looks like they've cut them off as well.

[00:06:21]I- I- In other cases here, obviously there's a microscope on this one and we're all looking at it. I mean, how often do sheriff's departments continue to communicate with families when we're at 100 days here? We don't really have any leads. We don't have any suspects.

[00:06:37]Um I know Nanos has said uh that the family is cleared and and I'm no way saying that the family has anything to do with this, but we still don't know who did this. Um and when you don't have that answer, are they are they typically still sitting there having conversation Is there if you have nothing to share, I guess why would there be much communication if there's no developments going on? Wouldn't this just be kind of par for the course on a case that essentially is starting to it appears go somewhat cold and and we'll get to maybe it is, maybe it isn't in a moment.

[00:07:10]Well, you know, Tony, always these families want to know information. Uh so, it's not that the information is going downhill from the family to law enforcement, but rather they are begging for information to go uphill to them.

[00:07:25]And it has to be limited because depending on where their pointer is in this case, if there even is one as to a possible suspect or theory, uh they're not going to want to share that typically with any family members for fear that it would get out and released.

[00:07:41]Um so, but nevertheless, typically there's a lot of communication Tony behind the scenes between that victim witness coordinator and sometimes the case agent or the lead detective just to say, "Listen, we're working on this.

[00:07:53]We've got seven DNA samples." You know, something uh to give them some peace of mind that it's being worked hard behind the scenes is typically the solution.

[00:08:04]Yeah, I also we had heard early on that the Guthrie family hired a PI, I believe. Um, do you know uh is that still person employed or they still doing something behind the scenes? Do you have any idea?

[00:08:15]You know, I haven't heard a lot about him. I have that footage where he's confronted and it was really unclear to me whether he's doing PI work or whether he was doing sort of security work. It was a little bit cloudy.

[00:08:29]Uh and of course we've heard nothing about it and I just have to believe if he was really if they had somebody and he was really snooping around, we would be getting that leaked out from neighbors that are being approached and so on. Uh so, I just have my doubts as to exactly what a person in that capacity is doing. Why wouldn't they, you think, have a PI on this? Cuz we just got off of uh Tony and I chatted with the one that was handling the Corey Richens Corey Richens case and they really need him. Oh my god, he was good.

[00:09:02]Um, any idea why they wouldn't want to have their own PI? Again, cost I know, but at this point, you know, I know they're they're if you're willing to put up a million dollars to help recover your mother, I would think that they'd be able to and willing to do something with a PI or maybe there's just nothing there that they think it's not worth it or they were told it wasn't. I mean, what are your thoughts?

[00:09:20]You know, I think when it comes to PIs, first of all, I think some of them, as long as they're I'm I believe you should get one that's foreign law or former law enforcement. I made that very clear with a long in a in a case like this, somebody with a long history of violent crime and kidnapping type experience, um, homicide experience. And uh not, I tell [clears throat] you, some of the people that just throw up their hand and say, "I think I'll be a PI." They don't have the contacts, they don't have the time behind the tiller, as I always say.

[00:09:52]Having said that, I think the good ones can be really good and do a lot of good for these cases, uh especially when they're willing to be private eyes.

[00:10:03]>> Right.

[00:10:04]And it >> Fortunately, the ones we tend to see are are not very private. And uh so, it's possible they do have somebody working behind the scenes. I tell you where I would have them working if I were the family, I'd have them working in the cyber space uh regarding those emails and then also in the big space. I just think those are possible leads that have just we don't hear anything about them and and that, you know, requires a very serious expertise. That's where I'd be spending my money, but it's difficult to get a PI when the Bureau is so heavily involved, I believe, because I think they are doing so much right now behind the scenes.

[00:10:44]Lots of questions uh still uh and and not a lot of answers. Your thoughts in the comment section on Substack and YouTube as we continue to work our way through uh our conversation on this case. Sheriff Chris Nanos uh says the focus has shifted heavily to digital evidence and DNA. He's talking about thousands and thousands of surveillance videos and an unidentified DNA contributor that could still crack the case. Jennifer Coffindaffer, retired FBI special agent, is uh back with us to help us walk through what is happening behind the scenes and where the next big break is most likely to come from. I think this is what everybody is is is waiting with baited breath for.

[00:11:25]Hopefully, there will be this big break.

[00:11:28]If there is to be a a break or some sort of break, even a small break at this point would be welcome beyond the speculation that we've all been doing now for roughly 5 months.

[00:11:40]Um if we're going to get a break, where's it going to come from, Jen?

[00:11:46]You know, I still think the number one piece of evidence is porch guy's face.

[00:11:52]I know somebody knows exactly who that is and it could be that they just don't know about this case. I think often times we think because we're true crimers and newsies that you know, there is information that that everybody knows what we know, but but people don't. They're so busy with their lives. So that could be one of the cases. The other thing of course is they're scared to death to say anything.

[00:12:18]Um but nevertheless, I think that's number one. Number two, I do like the videos, uh but again, this is nothing new. They've been doing that from minute one trying to figure out what I cannot fathom is in this time frame we have from 2:30 in the morning, such a finite time frame. If I find it odd that they cannot narrow down at least some image of a vehicle. The hair, I think is problematic, although you know, I always try to be optimistic because hairs are transient. As we've discussed, that thing could be from a grocery store clerk that got on the bag, that got in there. You know, it's they're so transient, but we have to remain hopeful that if they even are able to decipher who it is via genetic genealogy, which could take months, that it comes back to somebody that's related to porch guy.

[00:13:11]Would you ever Not would you ever, are there any interviews you actually redo again or that you direct like that private eye or anyone else to re-interview or even the FBI at this point with with what they know now cuz and we discussed this early on, you know, once you get a little more data, when you re-engage people, you have a little bit more directed questions you can ask, you get a little bit more baseline, a little more understanding.

[00:13:33]At this point, do you think they should or have already gone back and re-interviewed any specific people or in the surroundings or even, you know, workers, anything that you think would break it on the human side versus the cyber side?

[00:13:46]You know, when you look at the videos that we've seen over and over again of the different canvases that have been done in both Annie's neighborhood and in Nancy's neighborhood, it's to me kind of concerning. I mean, they were out there so many times uh different canvases. And so, I would not want to do that because I think what happens is over time people's memories um tend to get uh not only stale, but they tend to sort of almost imagine things that happen.

[00:14:18]>> memories start. Yeah.

[00:14:20]And and that's a that's a huge problem.

[00:14:23]Um so, I would be reluctant about those kinds of people.

[00:14:27]Uh I think it would be very interesting to make sure that I knew from the church group that she was close to and anyone else she's close to that maybe we don't hear about. Anything that Nancy might have said.

[00:14:40]Uh I know these questions had to have been asked, but if if anything has if somebody's remembered something along the road. Now, when That's a lot different than uh I think the neighborhood canvases. I think that that could be important. Yeah, I agree.

[00:14:56]Leakage over time after you reflect is uh really key and critical cuz those little those teeny little wobbles can be noticed in hindsight so much clearer um when you actually have some distance from the emotional attachment to it. Um I'm also curious I I Tony, I know you're going to say something.

[00:15:10]>> You're good. I'm also curious I You know what I'm really shocked at and Tony, I know you're looking at this too cuz it's your hometown in in sense of Walmart headquarters. I'm really shocked they haven't been able to come up with any anything for purchases on that stuff. Are you, Jen?

[00:15:25]Well, initially, I would have agreed, but Walmart is so huge. I did a deep dive into that.

[00:15:36]It it It's amazing how many millions of customers a day. I think if you look at that, it's it's unbelievable. And then, of course, I was tracking even Mexico.

[00:15:46]Because Mexico, I believe Walmart is their biggest retail retailer. And I just think there's so much to go through on this on these backpacks since they're only made there. I still don't think that's a dead end, though. I agree >> I really don't think it's a dead end. I just >> There's so much to go through, so many receipts uh to try to narrow down. Um so, whenever you're dealing with millions and millions of receipts to look through on that on that backpack, it just is going to take these analysts, and that's who's doing it, everybody.

[00:16:19]It's It's not the people that are the investigators. I believe that work is all being done behind the scenes by the analysts. And I know this happened after we both got out, you know, we there was no such thing as AI being employed with us in law enforcement before we retired.

[00:16:35]But, do you think that they have the ability to take all those receipts and plug it into an AI family cuz I mean, my computer could probably suck that in and look at it in 5 seconds and kind of see if there's a grouping of any purchases like that anywhere. Do you think they have that resource now that they're using or no?

[00:16:49]You know, I think Walmart has that.

[00:16:52]Yeah, there you go. Right.

[00:16:54]Kind of like with Google, you know, they're the technicians. They know their systems the best.

[00:16:59]I would be very convinced that Walmart is working hand-in-hand with the bureau to try to see if they can narrow that focus down.

[00:17:07]I mean, you you you'd really have to I mean, backpacks alone are going to be a very broad brush to find.

[00:17:16]Uh it literally is the biggest retailer on the planet.

[00:17:20]You'd be looking obviously you'd want to be I think looking in the Tucson general area. There's only so many Walmarts there. You I have no idea what the number is, but I'm going to guess 10 to 20 stores? Somewhere in that general number. I don't know I think we got 10 to 20 here in Northwest Arkansas.

[00:17:36]But you're talking that you're looking at those receipts. So you got the backpack then maybe we're looking at at other equipment that may be used or may have been used or or clothing that may have been on said person. If you can find all those things and narrow it down to one single purchaser, but then you're also going to be relying on how did they purchase the product?

[00:17:59]Was it on a credit card? Was it cash?

[00:18:03]Um Was it even in a Walmart? But if we're just at a Walmart where they're getting it, then you would have to be also looking at okay, you have the information. You have likely if it was bought in store, your camera or multiple cameras that would be on that person buying.

[00:18:20]And if they paid with a credit card that would put some information there. But here's maybe this is a legal question, but you guys can probably answer it too.

[00:18:28]What sort of rights do purchasers of products have with something like this to not have their identity given over to the FBI or criminal investigation for something like this? I mean does that take some sort of a court order or subpoena or something to Walmart to reveal customers identities and purchase history and such for people that have not been charged with a crime?

[00:18:57]Subpoena.

[00:18:58]Okay.

[00:18:59]>> I mean there's there's multiple kinds of subpoenas, right? There's a grand jury subpoena and then we also have admin subpoenas, but those are typically just used in narcotic and organized crime trafficking where literally as the case agent you write it out and your signs off on it, and you go serve it.

[00:19:15]So, the subpoena process, even if it's a grand jury subpoena, is extremely easy.

[00:19:19]You just have to be working with the local United States Attorney's Office, and you can get one in a couple of hours.

[00:19:26]Yes, they're going to have to do that 100% just to have the legal authority. And then secondarily, whenever you're doing a case, you were doing it as if you were thinking about trial. Yeah. Do a case any other way than that, worried about what this is going to look like in trial, that's how you have to do all these cases. So, they're going to be dotting these eyes, crossing the tees, for sure, Tom. And typically what we do is is funny as you're saying that James like, "Wow, a lot of times I just go in and ask a source." But the trial thing is what you got to watch out for. And so we we would typically ask ahead of time, "Is this something we'd be able to get if we had this?" So that we're not going to waste time on the paper, but yeah, 100%.

[00:20:07]What about this? In terms of the evidence, and we're waiting for a break here of some sort. And sometimes sometimes in many cases that go cold and it takes years to solve them. It's not that it it could have been solved if somebody had looked the right way or looked under the right hole 5 years ago.

[00:20:27]It's it's that the technology didn't exist for us to be able to examine the evidence and the information at that point in time. What should they be thinking about right now in this investigation that maybe we don't have the technology for quite yet, but maybe coming up 5 years down the road, 10 years down the road, that may be able to help identify more information about who was on the porch, who was in Nancy's house that day, that maybe we're just not quite there yet on. Or have we have we checked the boxes and we're going as far as we can in terms of identifying people through you know, mitochondrial DNA and things of that nature. Are there things on the horizon that we should be thinking about here? Preserve them because this may be our our lynchpin 5 years down the road if we're still at a dead end.

[00:21:17]This is one of my favorite questions because one of the biggest things is this mixed DNA sample, which is not the hair. It's be something else where they're according to Nanos in an interview he said more than two contributors. And right now in DNA they cannot separate out more than two. They can do two but they can't do three or more. And that is one of the biggest things they're working on. That's going to be the aha moment that I think is around the horizon that could help with this case.

[00:21:50]We don't know whether that's spit, which I still think because he had that bite light there has to be a spit all over that place because when you put it out took it put it in took it out it's on his gloves and then now he transfers it.

[00:22:06]Um Again, we've talked about all all forever be just dumbfounded as to why they did not take the vines.

[00:22:16]Because that was commensurate with him putting bite light in and out and then touching the vines and then obviously we've also talked about how he stood over the mat and they didn't take the mat. It's not that I don't think they didn't process it but there's so much more that could have been there if they just ended up taking a few swabs. So very concerning there but that's the piece that I think if they truly have this mixed sample could crack the case down the road.

[00:22:41]On the technology side aside from the bio genetic kind of stuff that's going to keep advancing that they'll do better at. I'm also looking at vehicles. You know, vehicles being wired and vehicles being connected kind of like smart car you know, the whatchamacallit Teslas are. That is getting more and more prevalent. So I also think that as time passes in the future, us being able to track every single vehicle in and out of an area and then establishing that timeline and then look for for you know, blips kind of like we look for cell phone traffic data in and out of an area, but it's easier to turn off a cell phone than it is to turn off a car if they're going to use some sort of vehicle. So, I think over time our ability to kind of zero in and and to vehicle anomalies in an area unless they did everything on foot, which I know one of the theories out there is one of the abandoned houses or house for sale or whatever, but I still think vehicles in the future is going to be even more helpful for us.

[00:23:34]Yeah, and and and crossing the data with with the vehicle uh, information, the vehicle technology information that's showing it where a vehicle was, where it's not. I mean, all I mean, if you have number one, they'd have to have a vehicle that does that.

[00:23:46]Not all vehicles are capable of that.

[00:23:48]Um, but but if they did have one that was, um, Uh, again, I mean, I I I I I too am am a bit baffled here, Jen. I mean, at some point there's going to be cameras, there are cameras that show comings and goings from this general area of town. Um, >> [laughter] >> I I I I I I maybe yeah, maybe, but I I guess how how have we not gotten anywhere with the vehicle yet? I mean, I I maybe that's the $10,000 question that nobody really knows the answer to. But I am kind of baffled that that there's not at least been like a pool of people that have been looked at or have they? Was that the first arrest that we saw in those first couple of days where they detained people and it turned out they had nothing to do with this?

[00:24:33]Uh, you know, was that there was that the initial lever that was pulled and it turned out the obvious ones that were on the cameras were not in fact the people.

[00:24:40]I don't know.

[00:24:41]I think those first two people were in the spotlight because of their appearance and people in their circle somehow thinking they were porch guy, but by not only the way they looked, uh, but also different things going on in their lives uh, that you know, in terms of their jobs, in terms of um uh the the delivery situation, one losing their house, another being apparently a little bit in the criminal world, things like that. And so, they had to clear them cleared up one way or the other that they were involved or they weren't involved. But, back to this car notion.

[00:25:21]So, there is a map out there and you can go about 23 minutes and basically get out of that neighborhood and avoid lights.

[00:25:32]So, if you turn your car off, you could just be tooling around and even if people have Nest or Ring, and again, these cars are way off the road where you would be going. There was only one portion of this roadway where there was a school and there were a couple lights there.

[00:25:51]But, if you're all darked out, blacked out, which that's what I would be doing.

[00:25:56]>> [snorts] >> Um you can get you can go a long way without hitting road. But, sooner or later, you have to hit a road. You have to hit a highway or thoroughfare to get out of it.

[00:26:08]>> [snorts] >> What about cell phones? I mean, that was the other thing here. I mean, I initially early on, it seemed you know, I don't know, I had a lot more confidence they were going to figure this out at the early stages. I think a lot of us did cuz the thought process was, okay, combine a couple things, the digital purchase, the digital history.

[00:26:24]If we could find that combined with cell phone tower data of somebody in the area. Cell phone tower data has done a lot for other cases. I'm thinking of Coburger. I'm thinking of Okay, we were able to show that your vehicle pinged here. If there was a cell phone, there's only so many cell phones that pinged off of a tower that is close to Nancy Guthrie's home.

[00:26:43]So, if they had a cell phone, one of those pings belongs or several of the pings belong to the people who were at that house.

[00:26:50]Um Uh but then the the thought process of tracking all of those pings down might be a little difficult. I I suppose you could you could I don't know. You could cancel out some of the folks who have always been there every day where their phones are just charging at night and pinging and and you could see the the the pattern there. I don't know.

[00:27:10]It just seems like there should be a way to cipher through this data and and see some of the the the outliers that are not normally pinging in this area and go, "Okay, let's let's parse through these folks and see what we can find."

[00:27:26]I don't think they used any cell phones.

[00:27:28]I don't think they had them in the area.

[00:27:30]I agree. I really think it was a two-way radio. Yeah. HD and and these are so you can use these so well covertly. Where you just to squelch. You just have to squeeze it and you can say yes and squeeze it twice and say no. Yeah.

[00:27:50]So they're critical and I tell you that photo, I can see the antenna.

[00:27:55]Yeah, you you were you've always said that you thought that that is a a two-way, right?

[00:28:01]Yep. I'm really convinced of that. And I'm with you. You know, just just the the vibe you get off of that.

[00:28:08]This if they even had cell phones, him or multiples, these would be burners. These would These would be something that would probably be bought in that Walmart purchase and that and and then their use of them These do not look like cell phone users to me.

[00:28:23]It's not because of being sleuth, I just don't think they have the capability.

[00:28:26]>> [laughter] >> But who's not a cell phone user today, Rob? I mean I mean I don't even You'd be surprised. So when you are and Jen has much more experience doing criminal activities than I did in the bureau.

[00:28:38]>> Yeah, give me expand on that. So anytime we did an operation, I mean I kept upstairs in my house here. I had like four or five burner phones that were bought from random places over a period of time. And if you're about to do an operation, we would activate a burner phone. And and then we would activate it in a and we would use activations from other places in the country. So it'd mask it. And then when you bought it with, you know, an undercover ID, it's masked even more.

[00:29:02]So I mean, use of burner phones for operations like this and this is just a couple of wonks like me doing it. So and if you have someone that's doing criminal activity, that's exactly what you're doing. And then all you do, you know, so then if you think about it, first you're using burner phones that were purchased in other areas around the country. And then if they had maybe three marbles rolling around upstairs and not two, they turn it off in the area. So they do a co-burger, which was a He was using his own phone but turn it off, which is obvious as living hell. Um, but these guys, if they're turning them off just like co-burger and their license someplace else and it's it's very very hard. So even if they did even if they were able to identify a cell phone blip in the wobble, being able to track it back to an individual because if it was purchased somewhere else in the country, it was initiated, you know, it's just so easy to get a burner phone and not in true name somewhere else.

[00:29:53]That's why.

[00:29:55]And I mean and and and that tells us more about the suspect themselves then as well. I mean, you have your We see so many cases where the suspect's cell phone is literally their cell phone. It's registered to them. That would tell us that somebody thought far enough ahead to be using a burner device for whatever their purpose was here. That That's some level of sophistication. Not doesn't take much.

[00:30:18]You can go to the Dollar General and buy your burner phone.

[00:30:21]Um, but it is it is a thought process.

[00:30:23]It's more than just I'm, you know, I'm running around here this weekend and I'm going to go rob some stuff from old people and this went horribly wrong. It does show a level of of planning and sophistication and a certainly a concerted effort not to get caught.

[00:30:39]You know, listen. This guy is likely a mope as we called them in the FBI.

[00:30:45]>> I agree. Uh but this mope did a lot of things right.

[00:30:50]Whether he got enough of television uh whether he thought, "What do I need for my costume?" and he put it together cuz that's what it looks like with the mismatched holster and the uh you know, it's a cheap affair definitely that he's rigged out in.

[00:31:07]But he thought through everything. And then he had a lot of factors that helped him uh environmentally.

[00:31:14]That how that's obscured with all of those trees, the deepness and darkness of night, all of that played into this.

[00:31:23]And you know, I've been more and more believe that this could be, you know, something where the puppet the puppeteer is more very organized. Um I've talked about wrench attacks. Uh this being a modification of one of those um It would not surprise me.

[00:31:42]And and that's what I want to get into uh here next. Your thoughts uh in the comment section on Substack and YouTube on where things are at with the evidence in the Nancy Guthrie investigation. Go ahead and drop it there. The links are in the description. A growing theory in the Nancy uh Guthrie investigation centers on something called a wrench attack. Highly organized crypto extortion schemes that use violent home invasions and kidnappings to target wealthy victims and demand crypto currency ransoms. These operations are run by sophisticated networks as they almost impossible to trace. Jennifer Coffindaffer, retired FBI special agent, is with us to help explore it. I know I I had never heard the term wrench attack until I saw you were posting about it uh this week. Explain to me uh more about what a wrench attack is and how this might fit the profile of what's going on here.

[00:32:35]Well, there's different versions of wrench attacks. So uh initially and the whole premise is when you have cryptocurrency, there is no way to get to it except for by having the passkey.

[00:32:50]And so the premise is listen, we can't get their crypto. The only way to get their crypto is to beat it out of them with a wrench. The wrench comes in because literally a cartoon about this attacking somebody with a wrench [laughter] and it kind of stuck.

[00:33:04]So just so you know that Yeah, the the genesis of it, yeah.

[00:33:09]>> It's not high some highfalutin thing.

[00:33:11]It's just no, it's a cartoon of a beat someone with a wrench.

[00:33:14]>> It's a >> [laughter] >> Tasmanian Devil attack is the next one.

[00:33:17]You're like okay.

[00:33:17]>> Wile E. Coyote.

[00:33:19]>> Yeah, super genius.

[00:33:20]>> TNT attack, yeah.

[00:33:22]>> [laughter] >> It's like a TNT attack. So the whole idea is that nobody is going to protect their crypto passkey when they're getting the hell beat out of them with a wrench or other objects. So that's that's where it comes from. And so by the way and check these stats, but in 2024 there was 813 million dollars paid in cryptocurrency for ransoms.

[00:33:49]And 2023 1 billion [clears throat] over 1 billion paid. So while we don't hear about it a lot, I I don't normally see this out there. We don't talk about a lot of kidnappings for some reason. I think because they always resolve quicker.

[00:34:06]Right, the person is dead, they get the people, they don't get the people, but you never hear about it. And so but this is what kidnappers want because you can't trace it very easily at all.

[00:34:18]It's very difficult and the money is instantaneously in your wallet and then you can get rid of it instantaneously.

[00:34:25]So for these reasons, this is what kidnappers use and there's kidnappings all over the world all the time. I've I've got the numbers.

[00:34:35]Oh, good. Did you confirm what I said?

[00:34:37]I'm going by my memory. Yeah, 2023 1.25 billion, uh 2024 813 892 million, 2025 uh 820 million.

[00:34:49]Already. In cryptocurrency ransoms.

[00:34:52]People >> industry.

[00:34:54]>> [laughter] >> It's an industry, people >> Lori Vallow did the wrong thing with this whole, you know, life insurance [ __ ] huh?

[00:34:59]>> [laughter] >> Sorry. Kind of the wrong business, Lori.

[00:35:03]Yeah, it's um it's it's the future. It really is the future.

[00:35:08]>> Future of [laughter] ransoming.

[00:35:09]The future of kidnapping. We should do it like a a corporate video. The future of kidnapping is here. Introducing wrench attacks. We could like get like some interesting spokespeople for it, you know, it'd be exciting, yeah.

[00:35:23]Little B-roll in there. Um Those are big numbers. So, okay, so so wrench attack, I get the concept. I I I get okay, you're getting beaten with a wrench and they want your password. I'm guessing Nancy Guthrie doesn't have a crypto wallet and a password.

[00:35:36]Um so so so walk me through how it connects into here. Okay, so how it connects into here and I actually uh found another case that so far I've deep dived. I'm sure there's many more out there and there's many more cases that we don't even know about, right? Because they resolve with payment and so forth.

[00:35:54]But nevertheless, the one I looked at was actually somebody who did have cryptocurrency and they kidnapped the father. Okay.

[00:36:02]They kidnapped him, they took him, and they actually kept him in an Airbnb.

[00:36:09]And I am telling you, it would not surprise me at all if porch guy got an Airbnb.

[00:36:16]Got it Got it where?

[00:36:18]An Airbnb. He had to have some place to take her. Right. And so in this other case I was looking at, they got an Airbnb and they tortured this poor man.

[00:36:31]Uh they actually cut off his finger uh before he ended up being rescued and he survived. And uh but it was the son that had the money. Yeah. Much like in this case. So, I saw this parallel. It's not that they just go in and beat the person with with the crypto.

[00:36:49]They beat the relatives of people with the crypto. Now, do we know that Savannah Guthrie and her husband, who jointly they're worth about 40 or I'm sorry, 45.6 million or yes, million dollars? Uh-huh.

[00:37:05]As you know, when you are a high-wealth individual, you are going to have your assets handled by other people. You're not going to have your your password like your crypto like it's handled by an investment company, you know? Right.

[00:37:19]Right. But I'm just saying, I think it's highly possible that their investors had invested in crypto. Okay.

[00:37:28]>> not been denied and it hasn't been supported. We don't know. But I could definitely see that that could be probable, particularly because crypto ex- has been exploding. Uh it's on the down right now a little bit, but do you see where I'm going with this that >> But they never exercise that lever though. They never went to them with anything of like here's Nancy and here's a wrench and it's coming towards her head unless your crypto password or or anything of that sort. That that's that's where it kind of like doesn't that word falls apart or am I missing something here? I think you're missing something because porch guy is a mope and porch guy screwed this whole thing up.

[00:38:14]I think she was unconscious when she left out of there. I think she was alive because we see the aspirated blood. I found this picture that's away from the picture people are trying to focus on, the one where there's a lot of drops, which never convinced me, but when you look further away, you can see Did I say [snorts] aspirated? I mean meant expirated. Everybody else keeps saying aspirated. I'm like, it's expirated blood. Expirated expirated blood on that porch, so we know she was alive, but was she conscious? What went on in there from 2:12 to 2:28?

[00:38:47]And was there I think there was a physical assault of some nature. I'm not talking about beating her to death. I'm talking about a few blows. She had to to have been bleeding internally for her to expirate blood.

[00:39:03]So, for these reasons, I think porch guy either A overdid it or B just you know, got too rough with her. And and I think she passed and it's it's terrible. So, now their whole scheme is blown. Okay.

[00:39:15]It's also interesting. Um good good interesting idea on the Airbnbs. I looked this up. Holy cow, there's about 3 to 5,000 active Airbnbs within a 100-mile radius of Nancy's house.

[00:39:27]I wonder how many Airbnbs are used for crimes.

[00:39:31]Let's look at that stat. Uh but but really yeah, it'd be interesting.

[00:39:35]>> [laughter] >> But okay, so we're essentially the the thought process goes porch guy is the mope. He's he's a low-level level player in this to just go get her. Really doesn't have a a dog in the fight other than he's getting a paycheck for doing this job.

[00:39:50]Overdoes it, kills her, so they they never are able to to exercise their demand for the money because she's dead, and they totally screws the whole thing up, and and they don't want to get caught or have somebody turn on them and go, "No, I'm a low-level mope. It's these [ __ ] over here who are doing this and and I was working for." So, they kill mope. Nancy's dead, and whoever's doing this is in a different country. So, there's not a lot of uh not a lot of things to trace. Is that kind of the direction?

[00:40:23]That's that's the overall overall premise. And you know, I put out there several weeks ago about that maybe porch guy is dead, and and then now it's kind of catching on.

[00:40:34]Uh but I I I don't necessarily think that they would even need to kill porch guy, but I wonder if they paid porch guy.

[00:40:46]And and I got to tell you this, too. I'm more convinced than ever that maybe only porch guy was there that day. There could have been somebody in the car, but I mean in and around that house, I really believe when you look at the data, right? We can't be influenced by anything else but the data. No one else is seen on any of the video or camera footage. No one.

[00:41:09]>> think it's just him.

[00:41:10]I do, too. You didn't know? Yeah, I do.

[00:41:13]And that two-way radio >> he didn't react I mean, none of his reactions were when he was startled by anything. First of all, he wasn't much startled, and when things gave him pause or anything, I mean, he was not looking around for affirmation or confirmation from anyone else in any of those things. That that that indicates to me there was no one around to have that with. Um so, yeah, I'm with you on that. I think he was solo. Not maybe solo acting, but solo there.

[00:41:37]Yeah, how does on a little bit. Just cuz both two doors were open, and so I keep wondering was there a person dressed like him? Were there two actors dressed similarly? I have not That's potential.

[00:41:51]>> not given up on that or or not given up. I have not released that as a possibility, for sure. Yep. So, you got a mope that in in a in a scenario like this, are are are these people in a in a wrench attack where it's it's the mope that's going in and doing this? How how tied in to the the handler are they? Is this is kind of like a side hustle in the criminal world where it's like, "Hey, so-and-so over here has a job, you know, you want to do it?" Or these are these trusted lieutenants of the higher the one that's pulling the cords or or what? Cuz my my question would be, where do you find mopes? And and look into that community and go, "Hmm, you know, and the I don't know." That's that's kind of where I'm at.

[00:42:36]They're not tied in at all, Tommy. Take the case that happened the day before Nancy was abducted. Two kids, 17, I believe, and 18 from California, they drove over 600 miles, they drove only an hour or so north of Nancy Guthrie, and they went into a house of individuals that they believed had cryptocurrency, dressed alike in FedEx outfits. They were given a thousand seed money from eight and red, who they were communicating with in over signal. This is a classic classic wrench attack.

[00:43:10]These two kids are, you know, sadistic.

[00:43:12]They tie the the people up and start beating the hell out of them, but because they're unsophisticated idiots, by the way, who never even knew one another, they left There was child of theirs that was upstairs, and I don't know how young, but there was a a minor upstairs, and he calls the police in hiding, and the police come and break it up before, you know, they ate crypto key and B or B killed these two.

[00:43:43]That is a classic wrench, you know, look at that statistically, and I know we talked about this a little bit earlier.

[00:43:49]This happened an hour and a half, maybe, away from her house the day before.

[00:43:55]I mean, to think that these attacks don't happen is just people That's a whackadoodle thought. They happen, and it's it's tracked. Where do they find them, Tony? They find them on the dark web. If you've ever been on the dark web or had a case involving the dark web, you can hire murderers, you can have kidnappers, you can get a hold of about anything.

[00:44:19]And the Bureau is heavily, and always has been, deeply embedded in the dark web in a undercover capacities Yeah. and has many cases out of the dark web. And I think that that's where they find these people. They're willing, they raise their hand, they want to be Batman and Robin for a day if you want to call it.

[00:44:36]Oh, I'm sorry. I mean, they want to be What [snorts] are the other two? The Green Goblin and uh the Joker for a day and get a big payout cuz they're statist- or sadistic idiots.

[00:44:50]Yep. Have they ever I mean, what about using the dark web against the dark web?

[00:44:54]About recruiting folks within the dark web to to They Those would be the folks that have the most knowledge, the most understanding, the most connections within because they actively work within it. Is there any flipping people in that world?

[00:45:07]>> Oh, yeah. Uh to for a case like this?

[00:45:11]Oh, yeah.

[00:45:13]Absolutely. And there's undercovers and uh people that, you know, within the Bureau that are very good. And [snorts] again, this is a place too of a lot of child exploitation.

[00:45:26]>> So, uh I've I've trained them. You know, so inside the Bureau and other agencies as well. So, I do a lot of communication training, a lot of interviewing, and undercover training. So, I've done a lot of training um just not in the Bureau, but other federal agencies for people operating on the dark web for just these things. Not just these things, but anti-terrorism things cuz yeah, like Jen was saying, this is where transactions happen within a lot of anonymity. And that's why you find all the child predators online there, too, cuz they think they can operate with anonymity.

[00:45:55]Um unbeknownst Well, they know it that that the law enforcement is trolling around in there, but there's a lot of nooks and crannies they try hiding in.

[00:46:04]How are that I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I to access the dark web or what it looks like. I don't even know what to think of there, but obviously I know it exists. How do people um how do they why I guess why do they use it when they know the FBI is lurking around in there? Is it just they can't help themselves and they're taking their chances or are there other places that these folks linger that that should be looked at?

[00:46:35]Well, first of all, the use on the dark web is millions. I mean, it's not a small place it's easy to hide and get away with a lot and um you know, not all the fishing ends up catching the crook, but there's a so many successful cases, Tony. But, that's that's and I know from somebody like me who is Occam's razor that this sounds very wow, but it's really not.

[00:47:02]It's really it's really not. You have sophisticated ring that get mopes and they kidnap and or beat people. And I'll tell you one of the biggest reasons that I'm talking about it so much as a possibility is because these emails and the Bitcoin you have the best of the best for 112 days, I think we're on and they not crack who got into six different time three different servers in these emails.

[00:47:37]You they can't crack it yet. And by the way, that's another possible in to solving this. And then of course, the Bitcoin.

[00:47:45]The FBI does Bitcoin cases all the time.

[00:47:48]Nothing here.

[00:47:51]And you know who's tickling the wire?

[00:47:53]The bad guys are the ones seemingly tickling the wire. We're not doing it.

[00:47:57]So, where it sits right now, Jen, uh where would you if you're in charge here and you're you're putting resources on this case, where you where would you have them look right now?

[00:48:10]Oh, I would have them all over again these email the the server where that email was sent to these media sources.

[00:48:19]You have three different sources, which I think is good, where they would have come in through. I would I would be paying the best of the best outside of the bureau to get this hammered out and figured out whoever invented the system for each of those media companies where you can send a note. I would have I I would be working night and day with them to see what they can resolve. Also, I would have the best of the best Bitcoin experts there are out there to figure out the this wallet that was opened and and where it was opened and how it was opened and who it traces back to. It has to trace back to somebody.

[00:48:59]Yeah. Even if Wait, I'd be all over that side of it.

[00:49:03]And the question is the question is does that just lead back to a scammer or does that actually to the person who did this?

[00:49:10]You know. Well, look at how the FBI reacted based on them believing it was related to the abductors. Look at everything they did, five different appeals to and the orchestration and BAU and what Savannah got through to said herself.

[00:49:27]I believe those two first two notes are real because she knows what's in them.

[00:49:31]And I believe they're real from everything.

[00:49:36]When I say real, not real for ransom.

[00:49:39]Look, they knew they were likely not going to get it.

[00:49:42]But if you follow these groups, they just keep pounding and pounding and pounding. All The other thing is that I find interesting is everybody keeps saying the second six notes aren't related?

[00:49:56]It's so dumb to say that. We don't know.

[00:49:59]They can't figure out those notes, either.

[00:50:02]So, they have a lot in common. They can't find them, who who wrote them.

[00:50:07]They You asked for Bitcoin as well.

[00:50:11]And they were equally obscure about the whole thing, and nobody else is doing that. At least notes to these media companies. So, my whole thing is, how can you not say that they're all connected?

[00:50:22]Yeah. So, so, Jen, if if if it's a sophisticated Bitcoin group that has done this before, you know, at the higher level targeting, and but you said you you don't think, you know, they they ruined it because she she wasn't able to give a sign of life or proof of life. But again, that approach, I'm going to discount the approach being off from typical ransoms.

[00:50:47]But the Bitcoin is very common from what we're seeing from the numbers.

[00:50:51]But again, I'm trying to struggle with, so why did they even do it then if there wasn't a hope of it, if the two were the first two were real, if they didn't expect to get the money? But then we'll reverse it if if we think it was targeted for for torment against Savannah, why then, except if the guy's dead and he's acting alone, why then aren't we getting more leakage going on right now? So, if we have Bitcoin on one, um why why that methodology if they didn't think they're going to get it? And if it was the other to torment Savannah, why aren't we getting more there? Any ideas?

[00:51:26]Okay. So, the first half of your question, look at the two kids, right, that we cited that we have a lot more information on. Right, these two kids, and they're being tried as adults, from what I understand. So, they didn't get anything there, either.

[00:51:41]But they're just willing to These people are horrible. They're like the people try to get ransom paid in all these missing cases. That's just happens with every missing case, right? But this is an all new level and um So, hopefully that answers your question.

[00:52:02]This is just one of the many attacks they're have done and going to do and they know that most of them aren't going to work out. But man, the ones that do end up to be 183 million last year and 1.

[00:52:15]2 billion in 23 and already up to 100 billion or million, I'm sorry, in 2025.

[00:52:21]So, you know, you keep casting the line.

[00:52:25]Okay.

[00:52:25]>> And you don't care who's left and then you hope that if you keep beating them and beat them that at some point maybe they'll get desperate and you'll get something. I'm the one suggesting actually to tickle the wire, but I think it's worth it if if this keeps going on unresolved.

[00:52:43]Yeah.

[00:52:44]Lots of thoughts uh on on where this is uh heading and where it's at and obviously uh we'll keep watching. I saw one of our viewers said you have a uh you have a crypto expert on on Tuesday, is that right?

[00:52:58]I do. I've had him on before. He's amazing. He actually is in the thick of it. He doesn't talk about it. He's not just a, you know, he's a professional.

[00:53:07]Every day he works with Bitcoin. He is in charge of all this Bitcoin distribution and all creating and I mean, it's unbelievable. I did a show with him already, but the problem was it was up here.

[00:53:21]Okay. I mean, it was Yeah. If you listen to that show, it's like, "Whoa, what?"

[00:53:27]And I kept trying to decipher and break it down, but we're doing just a question and answer Tuesday at 10:00. Okay. The viewer, so it's down at our level.

[00:53:37]Yeah. Okay, great. Break the case. Yeah.

[00:53:40]>> a little out of my cuz I don't understand any of it.

[00:53:43]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, I uh I have a small wee brain on this. I know. I I feel the same way.

[00:53:47]>> in stacks of cash, man. That's my only thing.

[00:53:49]>> [laughter] >> Stacks of cash.

[00:53:50]>> rain. Yeah, you're uh yeah, I mean, so check that out. Break the case, Jennifer Coffindaffer, on YouTube, wherever you get podcasts. Press subscribe and check it out uh so you can learn more. I'm going to watch and listen, too, cuz I need to it's an area that that I could certainly be more knowledgeable on in terms of understanding how it all functions. So go and check that out. Uh also, Robin's latest book, It's Not All About Me, is available wherever books are sold. Go and check that out. And your thoughts in the comment section on Substack and YouTube. We'd love for you to weigh in and give us your two cents. We'll continue the conversation there. Until next time, for Jennifer, for Robin, for Todd, I'm Tony Bruski. We will talk again real soon. Want more on this case and others?

[00:54:31]>> [music] >> Then press subscribe now, and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage [music] from Tony Bruski and the Hidden Killers Podcast.