Anselm Maina:Vapes and nicotine patches need to be cheaper than cigarettes because they are the safe

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:01]This is the Situation Room, the only way to start your day.

[00:00:08]>> But let's go to the proverb.

[00:00:10]However black a cow is, the milk is still white.

[00:00:14]However black a cow is, the milk is still white.

[00:00:18]Dr. I, how would you interpret it?

[00:00:22]>> Yeah, thank thank you. Thank you.

[00:00:25]My interpretation is that uh the purpose >> of a cow is to produce milk.

[00:00:32]>> Mhm.

[00:00:32]>> And it doesn't really matter whether the cow is black, white, orange.

[00:00:38]Uh at the end of the day, what is uh critical is the end result.

[00:00:42]>> Mhm.

[00:00:43]>> [clears throat] >> Uh that's my interpretation.

[00:00:45]>> All right.

[00:00:46]As of how you interpret it.

[00:00:48]>> Um I would concur with Dr. I here.

[00:00:51]>> Mhm.

[00:00:52]>> Um how would I interpret that is whatever something is supposed to whatever something is coming from, it doesn't change the outcome if the thing itself has different characteristics. Yes. So, the cow is white, black, yellow, the milk will always be white.

[00:01:14][clears throat] >> Mhm. Well said. Well interpreted.

[00:01:18]>> All right. Um World No Tobacco Day.

[00:01:21]Let's start with you, Dr. Uh Kanyeki, what are we talking about here? There seems to be a scientific approach to then be able to quit tobacco use. Tell us what you're saying.

[00:01:30]>> Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Uh the World No Tobacco Day >> Mhm.

[00:01:33]>> is uh a day that was uh passed by the member states of World Health Organization when the World Health Organization in 1987 passed a resolution that uh we need a specific day uh >> [snorts] >> so that uh we tell uh the whole world and the populations living therein the effects of tobacco, the risks of taking tobacco.

[00:02:02]And the first World No Tobacco Day was commemorated in 1988 and that day was actually set as May 31st uh every year. So, it's a global celebration day.

[00:02:17]And uh this year, similarly, it will be on May 31st.

[00:02:21]>> Mhm.

[00:02:21]>> And each year, there is a theme.

[00:02:25]And uh the theme for this year is unmasking the appeal that is uh nicotine and tobacco addiction.

[00:02:34]And uh we are looking forward to eat because uh uh the whole day is supposed to educate the masses and see the best measures thereof uh that we can reduce the smoking rates and assist those who smoke to quit.

[00:02:49]>> Mhm.

[00:02:51]Yeah. So, we talk about um tobacco consumption and reducing the same um in in the country today and pretty much across the globe. But one would say, what are some of the things you'd wish Kenya adopts today to help in addressing tobacco consumption in Kenya or lowering the same?

[00:03:12]>> Um thank you very much.

[00:03:14]One thing I'd wish for Kenya to actually accept is that they need to put the science first.

[00:03:20]>> Mhm.

[00:03:20]>> Follow the science.

[00:03:22]It will lead you to the evidence that we see.

[00:03:26]We had um the 2007 Tobacco Control Act.

[00:03:30]And what a better time to have this conversation with the World No Tobacco Day being 2 days away and our uh the bill is there with the National Assembly.

[00:03:39]From 2007 when it was enacted the vapes and the nicotine pouches didn't exist. So, it was kind of progressive at its time.

[00:03:49]But now we are here to say, look, the science is here. It clearly shows that there are safer alternatives and less harmful products that adult smokers who have tried to quit over time and have not been able to quit because of the addiction and the number of years of the period that they've been smoking have been told look, here is a safer alternative that you can use because now, if you look at it in a way that someone has been smoking 10, 20, 30 years and I come and tell you quit cold turkey way, it might not work.

[00:04:24]>> Mhm.

[00:04:25]>> But meeting people where they are is what will work and we'd like for Kenya to adopt the science and follow the evidence. Thank you.

[00:04:35]>> So what are those ways that work and let's get into the science [clears throat] now because I mean talk to folks who've been smoking forever and they say well, you know what, all those things, it doesn't just quite do it for me. So what's the science that can be applied towards quitting because if we're going to say no world, no to tobacco, that means that people will stop smoking cigarettes, whatever the case may be.

[00:04:55]So what's the science behind this?

[00:04:58]>> So the science is um independent bodies, research bodies.

[00:05:03]Uh for example, the public uh health in gland they did a research and they realized that 95% of um vapes and nicotine pouches they're 95% less harmful than the tobacco. Why? Because when you smoke the tobacco the burning, the combustion is where the problem starts and that's where the toxicants uh are released most and that's why you now start getting the lung diseases, the cancer and the heart disease.

[00:05:34]>> Okay.

[00:05:35]>> However, on this other side, the nicotine has been extracted and it's been put in a in an e-cigarette and in a nicotine pouch.

[00:05:42]>> Mhm.

[00:05:42]>> There's no combustion. There's no there's no combustion. It's only uh a delivery model of the nicotine. So, with that science in place, we are able to have Thank you. With that science in place, we are able to have a better society, and we are able to help adult smokers quit smoking, the traditional combustible smoking. Yes.

[00:06:05]>> So, am I hearing you say that you would rather folks vape and or wear a nicotine patch than smoke a cigarette?

[00:06:18]>> What I'm saying is there are less harmful ways to deliver nicotine.

[00:06:24]That's what I'm saying.

[00:06:25]>> Okay.

[00:06:26]>> With the smoking, the combustion, the fire is the problem.

[00:06:29]>> Mhm.

[00:06:30]>> Because that's where tar is released.

[00:06:32]>> Yes.

[00:06:32]>> With a nicotine pouch, there's no tar, there's no carbon monoxide.

[00:06:36]>> Mhm.

[00:06:36]>> But with a cigarette, it is. However, if this um adult smoker has been unable to quit entirely, >> Mhm.

[00:06:44]>> there are safer ways of which you can be able to access nicotine, >> Mhm.

[00:06:48]>> and uh which are less harmful, and the science has shown that they're actually less harmful, and now they're able to even uh kind of uh have better lives as they continue with their day-to-day.

[00:07:00]>> Okay, because in a smoker's world, Dr. Kanyoke, it's the nicotine that is quote-unquote the high. It's the thing that you feel better with, not the not the combustive um aspect of it. That is just in order for you to get the nicotine into your system, right? So, if you're saying that you can do away with the combustion, which is what causes the problem, then it's still okay to have nicotine in your system.

[00:07:27]Because that's what you're after.

[00:07:29]>> Yes, let let me let me let me go back and say that uh Kenya is a member state of World Health Organization.

[00:07:38]And Kenya has ratified the Framework Convention for Tobacco Control. Tobacco Control is very critical [clears throat] uh because as we all know, cigarettes are the only products out there in the market that if used as intended will kill you.

[00:07:55]And uh 50% of uh users of cigarettes end up dead.

[00:08:00]So, there are many ways that have come up brought in by WHO to try and combat or reduce uh the risks and uh fight tobacco control.

[00:08:14]And uh what you are saying is if you go back to that Framework Convention and you look at the definition of tobacco control, you realize that tobacco control as defined by Framework Convention of Tobacco Control by WHO says uh it encompasses a range of supply, demand, and harm reduction strategies, all aimed at reducing the risks and usage of tobacco.

[00:08:44]What we are saying is that nicotine is the most addictive substance that you can ever find.

[00:08:52]And uh we need to have harm reduction strategies, especially targeting the users of tobacco uh in such a way that those strategies are scientific, evidence-based, so that we assist our smokers to quit tobacco.

[00:09:10]And uh our target is the smokers who are smoking, uh they need to be provided with safer alternatives. Uh let me also emphasize that there is no safe product.

[00:09:23]There are always risks, but what you look at are the relative risks in terms of which is more harmful than the other.

[00:09:32]And uh without a doubt, when it comes to combustion of cigarettes, they are more harmful. Uh we know that cigarettes and tobacco have more than 7,000 cancer-causing agents. And what we are saying is that we need to embrace science.

[00:09:47]We need to take the approach of uh risk proportionate. Uh we do know that uh in the risk uh a proportionate spectrum uh of nicotine, uh cigarettes are the most harmful.

[00:10:03]And the least harmful uh in that uh a proportionate uh a spectrum are are the nicotine uh delivery systems. Uh the electronic cigarettes, the nicotine patches.

[00:10:17]And a lot of science has been uh put into this to prove actually that uh this is working.

[00:10:24]And I can just give you an example. If you look at Public Health England, as as as uh it was earlier pointed out, they did a research which showed that uh electronic cigarettes are 95% safer than combustible cigarettes. When you burn a cigarette, uh you're consuming so many substances.

[00:10:44]And as the father of uh harm reduction stated, Professor Russell, people actually uh smoke for the nicotine, but they die from the tar.

[00:10:55]And uh what we are trying to say is that we need to educate our people that uh uh we need to adopt science. We need to adopt these safer alternatives uh into assisting our smokers to quit. And on the same note, we need to see how best we can protect our youth and children from uh these products because we don't want our youth and children exposed uh or commence the use of these nicotine products because of the addictiveness.

[00:11:25]>> Yeah. Anselm, um so we we look at um nicotine use in the country, uh tobacco use in the country, and uh there has been different ways that has been handled before, and majorly Kenya has handled that through syntax, always adding taxes on tobacco every other year. But, that understanding people still go and buy and consume.

[00:11:46]And we've seen that as well, they have been pouches that have come in, and we also have seen the government ban some because of the content they do have.

[00:11:57]But, we've never really sat down as a country to look at how we can use modern ways to address the problem. You know, we've done it through the tax and everything, which has not worked. But, would you say now that has is this conversation being held on that high level of government including science in this conversation? And if not, then how do we start having this conversation as a society?

[00:12:26]>> Um, thank you.

[00:12:27]This conversation has been had in uh, the United Kingdom. It has been had in Japan. It has been had in New Zealand.

[00:12:36]And they have seen that where you can't stop demand, you what's the best way forward is to control the harm, which is now the tobacco harm reduction. And they've been able to, for example, in Sweden, uh, we we can now see that, um, there there's a drastic rate, uh, a drastic rate of the smokers up to 5%.

[00:13:00]Therefore, there if they are if they haven't been considered, uh, a no a no smoke uh, country, they should have been by now because 5% of the average, um, citizen is a very very small number. And why they've done that is because they've embraced harm reduction.

[00:13:19]Now, if this conversation is happening there, where I come in as an advocate from Africa Consumer Education, I'm telling the consumers and I'm also telling the regulators, look, let us sit on the same table with the different stakeholders.

[00:13:36]The adult smokers, their voices need to be heard because they're the consumers.

[00:13:39]And if the if a blanket ban is done on these flavors, then the guys who are going to be hurt the most.

[00:13:45]Yes.

[00:13:46]And we understand where they're coming from. They're trying to restrict it to children, which is fine and we concur.

[00:13:52]And there are ways um which we're going to talk about that we can do that.

[00:13:57]However, as much as we're trying to restrict the children, we can also not punish the adult smokers. And if you have proper regulation and very strict enforcements, it can work and it will work.

[00:14:09]>> Yeah. Dr. Ari, you see, this conversation most of the time is being held around this time, right? And the example you give of Sweden and European countries, you find that beyond um reducing um um the effects, right? Um what you're talking about, what they've done is this is a constant conversation that has painted um that nicotine use as being something that is useless. Because I remember there's a time I visited and they said, "Anyone who's seen smoking is seen as a very useless person in the society." And that has made people to stay back because they don't want to be seen in that bad light. It is not what Kenya would do, but speaks to the constant communication and engagement with the public on the need of stopping that we do not see happen in the country today. In terms of sustaining this conversation, what are we doing? What must we do?

[00:15:08]Instead of just waiting for the day globally for us to talk about it.

[00:15:14]>> Yes, thank you. The I I agree indeed this is a conversation that has to be kept alive from the first day of the year to the last day of the year.

[00:15:24]And uh I'm happy because as we speak right now, we we we have discussions on the Tobacco Control Amendment Bill, which currently is at the public participation stage. And we encouraging all Kenyans to get a copy of this bill.

[00:15:42]It is live.

[00:15:44]So that we have an engagement on what this bill is all about and see what amendments need to be put in place. How do we entrench science >> Yeah.

[00:15:57]>> into this Tobacco Control Amendment Bill? How do we focus on the smokers?

[00:16:02]>> Yes.

[00:16:03]>> Because smokers have been left to their own peril by being told quit or die, which is no longer workable. Smoking is a real addiction, which must be handled medically and scientifically. And this conversation needs to continue.

[00:16:23]We need to be tolerant to each other and listen to each other than being dismissive in whatever approach be the government, be the harm reduction experts, and we see how best we can engage this talk even as we steer the direction of regulation. Regulation is very important as I earlier pointed out. But at the same time, we need to focus on the smoker. Let us not punish the smoker in the name of regulation because they will be left on their own and they will have no one to assist them.

[00:17:03]>> Mhm.

[00:17:04]Why has it been so difficult? Because usually, in order to solve a problem, you have to look at the difficulty of it. Why has it been so difficult to get people who smoke off smoke?

[00:17:16]>> I know.

[00:17:18]>> Um >> I would say that this conversation or rather consumer education is also one of the things that hasn't been done properly.

[00:17:30]>> Mhm.

[00:17:31]>> Because we look at the West and the the science is clearly showing that um there are products that are way less harmful than the cigarettes that you're smoking, but it looks like here in Africa it's like we don't have that information. And that's where we come in as a as a as an advocacy and do consumer awareness and also educate consumers.

[00:17:54]Because here you're talking on behalf of the adult consumers, right?

[00:17:57]>> Mhm.

[00:17:57]>> And you're telling them, "Look, I know you've been struggling to quit uh the traditional way of smoking um uh cigarette.

[00:18:07]Now, the science has shown us that we have an alternative. We have safer alternatives that you can use that will help with the cessation of the whole entire product and then therefore you'll be able to have like better lives.

[00:18:22]Instead now to a point where if the government, let's say for example for the bill, >> Mhm.

[00:18:27]>> they come and say which is actually what the bill is saying. It's saying that they they want to ban a total blanket ban on the flavors.

[00:18:35]>> Mhm.

[00:18:36]>> These flavors is what help adult smokers switch to the safer alternatives because they're palatable.

[00:18:42]>> Mhm.

[00:18:42]>> Yeah. Now, if you ban them, we will just now um go back to where we were. We will now promote more cigarette smoking because now they don't have a safe alternative. They they have nowhere to lie to to lean on in a way that they're able to access these safer products.

[00:18:59]>> Mhm.

[00:18:59]>> Yeah.

[00:19:00]>> So, [snorts] one of those like you mentioned before is is is the vapes.

[00:19:03]>> Yes.

[00:19:03]>> Are there any contraindications of vaping?

[00:19:08]Are there any What are the risks of vaping as well? And if you did a comparison between that and the traditional cigarette smoking, what would be what would that look like?

[00:19:19]>> Well, let me start by saying that research has shown that electric cigarettes, the vapes, are 95% less harmful.

[00:19:26]>> Mhm.

[00:19:27]>> We're not saying that they're 100% risk-free. We're saying they're 95% less harmful.

[00:19:33]Now, when these products are regulated, consumers will be able to access safer products in terms of e-cigarettes and the nicotine pouches >> Mhm.

[00:19:45]>> because they contain nicotine.

[00:19:47]If that doesn't happen and they're able to access these products in the illicit market, you'll find that the nicotine dosage maybe in those e-cigarettes that people are buying in the black market is what now becomes a real issue because it's unregulated and it it it no longer becomes a safe product for you.

[00:20:09]So, what we're saying is I'm not telling you this is a risk-free product. I'm telling you because this is where you at, you've been unable to quit, I'm telling you it's less harmful than the traditional smoking that you have been doing.

[00:20:24]>> Mhm.

[00:20:24]>> Yes.

[00:20:25]>> You know, Dr. Ari, we look at vapes as uh at the moment um being it is scientifically driven pretty much, right? But um we equally look at focusing more on um adults who have been unable to quit, right?

[00:20:43]But on the other hand, many would say that we see young people jumping on vapes as well, which is counterproductive on what it is we wanted to achieve. So, what would you have to say with regard to those who are saying, "Whatever it is you're trying to achieve is not working out because you're seeing more young people getting into it anyway."

[00:21:03]>> Yeah, absolutely. I I I I concur with that, uh at the same time uh uh harm reduction as a principle, it's it's a pragmatic principle of trying to reduce harm.

[00:21:15]And if you do recall, just to take you back when the era of HIV AIDS and the introduction of condoms, >> [clears throat] >> just to give an example, uh there were so many counter arguments that uh condoms will promote immorality, uh but from a public health angle, it was very clear that using a condom was safer. Uh it did not necessarily say that it was 100% safe, but it was safer uh to use a condom. And even giving another example of IV drug users and the methadone program run by the government uh Ministry of Health uh that targets users of opioid opioids and needle exchange programs, uh there were quite a number of counter arguments that this will promote >> Mhm.

[00:22:04]>> What we need to do in as far as safer alternatives for tobacco is to come out with regulations that will protect the youth and children from access.

[00:22:16]And as harm reduction society, we are saying that if you do not use these products, if you do not smoke, please don't start.

[00:22:25]Uh we advocate for those who are smokers of cigarettes and who want to quit. And we are saying that they need to be given that opportunity to use these safer alternatives uh that will assist them to quit. Just to give you an example in England, in the UK, they have a program called Swap to Stop uh whereby the government of UK uh is providing free electronic cigarettes uh to cigarette smokers.

[00:22:58]You walk in into a clinic, they have uh cessation clinics all over. You walk into a clinic and you get a free vape, a free regulated vape.

[00:23:11]And then you're followed up in that clinic.

[00:23:15]Number one to ensure that you you you put down your cigarette. Uh because without a doubt the the cigarette is more harmful uh than the electronic cigarette they are giving you. And this has been done through science.

[00:23:30]Uh at the same time if you look at Japan, they are coming up with regulations of protecting their youth uh from smoking. For example, some of the electronic cigarettes have biometrics. You know, for for you to use that, you must put in your fingerprint and other modalities to try and protect the youth from accessing these products.

[00:23:53]And uh that is what we are advocating for, focusing more on the smokers of cigarettes to try and assist them quit uh by use of these harm reduction strategies. And that is what we are saying we need to distinguish uh between combustion of cigarettes and these safer alternatives.

[00:24:12]>> Mhm.

[00:24:15]Is the factor that you have big influential rich companies that are pushing tobacco use and its sale a factor in the inability of governments to uh stop or push harder for the stop of sale of cigarettes?

[00:24:44]>> Um well, um I'd say harm reduction is not an invention uh by the industry.

[00:24:53]It's an invention that has been used um in the various industries that we have here in our country, we've seen alcohol harm reduction. We've seen, um, uh, campaigns on HIV prevention, and also the drug programs.

[00:25:09]So, where I speak, uh, representing the adult smokers, is that we are here to follow the science and the evidence guided by it.

[00:25:21]And the science clearly shows that we we do not want to go back to the days of traditional smoking.

[00:25:30]We want to live in a day whereby we are able to access safer and regulated products with the support of the government, whereby any product that is being imported or manufactured is regulated by the bodies that are supposed to be doing that, and the consumer the end consumer is able now to access this safer product.

[00:25:50]>> Mhm. But, what I'm saying is that the manufacturers of tobacco products, specifically cigarettes, are deep-pocketed companies.

[00:26:00]Do they have any influence over the prolonged use of cigarettes in jurisdictions whereby there's influence over governments and their policy as well?

[00:26:11]>> Well, you see, um, about the manufacturers, I'm here on behalf of the consumers, the adult consumers of these products.

[00:26:22]So, what my point here is is that we're not going to come here and say that these products that are being, um, brought in the country or manufactured in the country, >> Mhm.

[00:26:36]>> that are here to now cause harm or also to benefit certain people. No, we are here to say that adult consumers they have the right to access these safer products because the science has shown them, and just because that uh, maybe the same person who was the same person was importing the cigarette or making it the same person who's doing the safe alternative.

[00:27:03]That one has no correlation with the consumer at hand. The point is that these guys are supposed to be able to access a safer regulated alternative.

[00:27:15]>> Dr. Terry, when you still talk about manufacturers and and alternatives that are there in the market, you realize that the manufacturers would not want to see anything that would get them out of business. So, one would argue that manufacturers would want to maintain the status quo because that is how they make their bread and butter.

[00:27:34]But for this conversation as well to be there, the manufacturers must be front and center. Why? Because regulators are in in one way or the other. So, are we seeing manufacturers changing how they're doing businesses and are embracing new ways of of of selling this product? Are we seeing them investing in science to lower tobacco use?

[00:28:03]>> Let me just say that if you go back to World Health Organization and the Framework Convention, it's it's quite clear which Kenya is a member state.

[00:28:14]It's it's quite clear on involvement of the industry and the government. We know very well that the cigarette industry is legal in this country.

[00:28:23]>> Yes.

[00:28:24]>> But it is incumbent upon the Ministry of Health to educate Kenyans and bring up measures to reduce the risks and morbidity and mortality associated with cigarettes.

[00:28:43]On the issue of these new products, let me just give you a short history. The first e-cigarette was actually produced in China in 2003.

[00:28:55]Not even by the industry.

[00:28:57]Uh, by a pharmacist >> Mhm.

[00:29:00]>> called Dr. Hon Lik.

[00:29:02]And uh, the purpose or what drove him to produce this electronic cigarette uh, was because he was a chain smoker and he had seen his father die out of smoking.

[00:29:15]And uh, it clearly tells you that this innovation is not an innovation from from the industry or whoever. It It's something that is innovative. And uh, we have so many players coming up with these inventions. And the whole idea is to focus on the smoker.

[00:29:35]>> Mhm.

[00:29:35]>> Uh, to try and see how best uh, they can be assisted to quit smoking. Uh, let me also take you back in as far as taxation is concerned.

[00:29:46]And then we know very well that uh, the Ministry of Health does receive about 2% uh, of taxation from all these products in a special tax called solatium.

[00:30:00]And the purpose of that, as defined by law, is to assist in educating the public and lowering the risks uh, of tobacco use and getting to see how best uh, can uh, the number of smokers uh, go down. How can we assist these smokers medically to quit smoking?

[00:30:23]So, at the end of the day, these innovative mechanisms uh, that uh, are out there, just like we saw with COVID, we we we had so many uh, innovators coming up with vaccines. And uh, the whole idea is that they are driven by the desire uh, to see better outcomes.

[00:30:41]>> Mhm.

[00:30:42]Uh, harm reduction being pushed by the organization is not just for you, right?

[00:30:47]Government as well is involved.

[00:30:48]Non-governmental organizations are in that space. So, then one asks the question as this is focused on the user, right? Um, what is the role of government then in this conversation? Because if government doesn't invest in it, it would be one would assume a tad bit difficult for you to achieve, um, your goals. So, how are we working together both as ex- as stakeholders in this space to ensure that the overall goal, which is to, um, lower the effects of the same are achieved?

[00:31:24]>> Thank you. Um, the government role mainly is regulation.

[00:31:29]>> Mhm.

[00:31:31]>> You see that when these products are available in the market, the government bodies, let's say KEBS, is supposed to regulate on these products as safer alternatives.

[00:31:45]Look at it, um, when you're talking of a flavored cigarette and a flavored, um, nicotine, uh, product, which is a alternative, those are two different things.

[00:31:57]Because this cigarette, as much as it's flavored, there's still combustion, right? And that that's where there's the vast harm.

[00:32:05]Now, on this other side, the safer alternative, which, yes, has nicotine, there's no combustion, it's less harmful, right?

[00:32:13]Now, there's no way you will regulate, um, a bicycle the same way you regulate a truck.

[00:32:19]>> Okay.

[00:32:19]>> It doesn't work. It doesn't make sense.

[00:32:22]But we are saying, let's come together on the same table and discuss the different The committee has the different, um, members in it, but I don't think the committee has the consumer voice. We are saying involve us.

[00:32:40]Let's show you the science. Let's show you the evidence that we have. We have seen it work here, and I believe it can also work here. Therefore, Kenya as a country can take this opportunity to be the lead in a in the change of tobacco control act, and hence the other countries now can be able to follow suit.

[00:32:59]>> Yeah.

[00:32:59]>> in Africa.

[00:33:00]>> Is that concerted conversation taking place where everybody who needs to be on the table is actually on the table having the conversation, or are we still waiting for an invite?

[00:33:09]>> You're waiting for an invite.

[00:33:11]>> Okay.

[00:33:11]>> Yeah.

[00:33:11]>> It sounds like something a little bit more serious to wait and say we have to be here if we're going to move anything because that's goes to my previous question whereby who's controlling this conversation, and others who need to be in the conversation if we're waiting for an invite, it may not ever come.

[00:33:29]>> Yes, and that's why we need proper public participation. Yes, and which is what back to when it was in the Senate, and it that's what we are actually asking for now that it it's in the National Assembly. Let's have proper public participation so that we are able now to we are not actually defying the the the tobacco control amendment. We want it to go through. However, we just need to change those few things.

[00:33:55]Include us.

[00:33:57]Give us ample time for this proper public participation to happen, and then thereafter even when it comes to the products being retailed outside whether online or at point of sale.

[00:34:11]When someone is involved in a decision-making process, they take it as a responsibility to make sure that they follow the law.

[00:34:18]Yes.

[00:34:19]>> What are the challenges from where you sit because there's obviously a crossover here between medicine medical practice and policy making, and of course the law. What are the challenges that you see to getting to this place where actually there will be no tobacco use?

[00:34:39]>> Well, one one of the main challenges is misinformation.

[00:34:44]We have a lot of misinformation out there.

[00:34:48]Let me put it very clear that nicotine is not tobacco.

[00:34:55]Nicotine is a constituent of tobacco.

[00:34:58]>> Mhm.

[00:34:59]>> Nicotine is not carcinogenic.

[00:35:02]It does not cause cancer.

[00:35:03]That has also been stated by WHO.

[00:35:08]And what we're trying to say is that we need product differentiation. You cannot lump these safer alternatives in the same boat as cigarettes. And that that is the conversation that we need to have that uh we must embrace science.

[00:35:28]We must look at what science is telling us.

[00:35:31]And how best can we take this approach?

[00:35:34]As a harm reduction society, we are for regulation.

[00:35:38]But we need to have our voices heard. We need to see how best can we assist smokers to quit.

[00:35:46]Because we've been having this conversation for many years. And when new products come on board that have been proven effective elsewhere, from Sweden to Japan to the UK, it's something that we really need to have a conversation on. And see how best can we tackle this issue of tobacco control as envisioned by framework convention of tobacco control, which clearly had harm reduction strategies in its definition of tobacco control.

[00:36:20]>> Mhm.

[00:36:20]Doc, I'll still remain on that. And you'd find anyone who's smoking and just have a conversation, they'll tell you I mean Jerry Bukanchinda. I tried despite them trying, you know.

[00:36:35]And here now we're looking at centers of help if if there any place where individuals can just get together and even have a conversation about it as well as how is price of these scientifically led inventions then the price of that inhibiting many from quit because cost is also a factor.

[00:36:58]So, does this conversation then needed to get to a point where um if we are importing, we have tax rebates because it is helping the overall health of the country. At least the kind of conversations that then we must be having with the government with parliament in terms of having a solution that covers everything.

[00:37:21]>> Yes, indeed and the first conversation is to ensure that whoever gets in is safe.

[00:37:27]>> Mhm.

[00:37:28]>> Because as we speak right now we have so many products out there in the market with very high nicotine content simply because they are not regulated.

[00:37:38]>> Yeah.

[00:37:38]>> So, from a point of safety, we must begin by ensuring that these products that are available out there are safe.

[00:37:49]They have the recommended because we have the recommended nicotine levels that will assist smokers to quit.

[00:37:58]>> Mhm.

[00:37:59]>> And that's where we need to begin as we progress towards embracing some of these products for tobacco control.

[00:38:07]>> Yeah.

[00:38:08]>> Yes.

[00:38:08]>> Yeah. Awesome. Are we saying in a space where you are right?

[00:38:13]They the smokers who are there and they're saying awesome, yes, I want to quit but in the event that that is the conversation that someone then is having with you, what next steps do you take because there's someone who clearly needs assistance. There's someone who clearly wants to stop. There are alternatives that perhaps they are not aware of. So, talk to us about the um level of disinformation being with the public and if at all you would record that people know about these alternatives that are there.

[00:38:48]>> Thank you.

[00:38:50]Um that's what we would call consumer education, right? That's what we would call consumer education. So, I'm able to um talk to you and let and tell you that these products that you have been consuming, I understand uh that you're addicted and you're trying to quit, right? Now, there's evidence and there's science that has shown there's a safer way um to access the delivery of this nicotine.

[00:39:20]Now, when it comes to the common one inch, you're able to use dialogues where they can be able to that relatable with, you know?

[00:39:30]You kind of compare now the harm reduction with maybe their day-to-day lives. You talk of belting up when you're driving. You talk of um putting on a helmet when you're on a boda boda.

[00:39:42]The same now with that trajectory, you're now heading now into the harm reduction space of the product that it is that you're trying to get them away from. And you find now that they'll be able to understand, oh yes, this one um is bad. It's not good. Here, we have the safer alternative which um you'll get the same whatever it is that you're looking for because nicotine is in both.

[00:40:08]Um is in both products. However, one way of consuming it is safer than the other.

[00:40:14]So, please try and consume these products, these safer alternatives, as a way to help you put down that cigarette.

[00:40:22]>> Mhm.

[00:40:22]>> Yeah.

[00:40:23]>> Yeah.

[00:40:23]>> For healthier future, even for our nation.

[00:40:25]>> What about the cost factor? Which are more expensive, and would one would the cost factor be an encouragement or turn-off to then making the change?

[00:40:35]>> Well, we need we need these products um affordable.

[00:40:39]Because we can't say that we will only cater for the the middle to the high income earners who are the smokers, and we know a very good percentage of the low-income cadre are more into smoking, and the number is going up. But if you're able to come up with ways where these products can be able to reach the low-income person and the high and the middle-class person, will be able it will be a game-changer.

[00:41:07]So that now whether you're talking of the e-cigarette or you're talking about the vapors, whoever is in whoever is in control of that, they're able to say that, "Look, um we have this product in this type the same way you go to the the shops, and you can buy margarine for 10 bob, and you can buy margarine for 500 bob, right?"

[00:41:28]>> If you if you can be able to do that, we're able to solve a problem. So let's keep it in a way and have a conversation where where do we meet these people where they are.

[00:41:37]>> Mhm.

[00:41:38]>> But are they cheaper? At the moment, are the alternatives that you're speaking of cheaper than what's available right now?

[00:41:46]>> What's available right now?

[00:41:48]Um >> Cigarettes?

[00:41:49]>> Cigarettes.

[00:41:50]>> Okay, let me ask it like this. Are vapes and all patches cheaper than cigarettes today?

[00:41:56]>> No, today they're not.

[00:41:57]>> Okay.

[00:41:57]>> Yeah.

[00:41:58]>> Mhm.

[00:41:58]>> Today they're not. And that's why we are saying they need to be.

[00:42:01]>> Mhm.

[00:42:02]>> And why they need to be is because they are safer.

[00:42:04]>> Mhm.

[00:42:04]>> Yeah. You can't have um a product that's safer than the other more expensive than the harmful one. It's not right, even from a consumer perspective, right?

[00:42:13]>> Mhm. But if you're able to come up with ways where these products are able to be accessed by the by the consumers with the different colors that they're they're they're in from the high to the low, it [clears throat] would be a very progressive um situation whereby everyone is able to access help.