What If You Had More Options for Breast Cancer Screening? | Over 50 and Flourishing

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[00:00:00]Hey, it's Dominique. Before we get into today's episode, I am so excited to invite you to my over 50 and flourishing tour called Behind the Curtain. This show is going to be an intimate in-person evening where I'm opening up about the moments that you saw online and what was really happening before, during, and after. These are the thoughts, the fears, the decisions, all of it. We'll laugh, we will get honest.

[00:00:24]We will talk about navigating life's transitions, letting go of guilt, and stepping fully into who you're meant to be. But more than anything, this is about community. Coming together in person, connecting with each other, and realizing you're not alone. And there are interactive moments throughout the night. You're part of this experience, not just watching it. I truly believe that your next chapter can be your most exciting one yet. and I can't wait to connect with you in real life. To find your closest stop and get tickets, click the link in the show description or in my bio on Instagram, Dominique Soxa.

[00:01:00]Looking forward to seeing you there. Hi there. Today's guest is somebody who has completely challenged the way that we think about breast health. Dr. Dr. Jen Simmons is a former breast cancer surgeon who spent years inside the traditional medical system until she realized that the way we screen, diagnose, and even treat breast cancer might not be serving women the way she feels that it should. She made a very, very bold decision to step away from surgery and instead focus on empowering women with better information and as she hopes, more options. She is the founder of Perfection Imaging, the author of the Smart Women's Guide to Breast Cancer, and she's the host of Keeping a Breast podcast, where she's on a mission, as she says, to help women take ownership of their breast health. We are going to have an honest, open conversation about this journey, and I encourage you to keep an open mind about it, and then you get to decide where you align. Let's welcome Dr. Jen Simmons to the podcast.

[00:02:09]Hey, Dr. Jen. For those of us watching on Facebook, I have to say, first of all, I love being able to share a screen with you because I have so much that I want to talk to you about today, but I also love the fact that we are channeling various shades of pink. So, I encourage everybody who's listening to come over.

[00:02:24]>> I really like yours, by the way.

[00:02:26]>> I really like yours. It pops.

[00:02:27]>> Oh, thank you. That's sweet. That's >> Well, it's true. It's true. I have so much that I want to discuss with you on this subject. You popped up in my Instagram feed a while ago and I was really really intrigued with not only what you're doing but what you're saying and you are a bit against the establishment in terms of breast health, breast screening, all the things. Um I'm just going to throw out there too that I am as well and I will share my story with you as we kind of converse and talk about you. Um, I think we all we all come from different experiences and backgrounds and walks and and I'll just come out and say there is no right way, but there's what's right for you. But the only way to know what's right for you is to know what's out there and available to you. And I don't think that story gets shared as readily as I'd like to see it shared. And that's why you're here today. So, I just kind of want to hone in at first a little bit on your journey. I mean, you were a breast surgeon for years. What what made you kind of step away from traditional breast surgery?

[00:03:32]>> Well, Dominique, first of all, thank you for having me on today.

[00:03:36]>> These conversations are of the utmost importance, and you're 100% correct in that they're not happening enough, frequently enough, loudly enough.

[00:03:46]Um, my friend JJ Virgin calls me a contrarian, but not for the purposes of being a contrarian, >> but for the purposes of calling it out when we've got it exactly wrong, >> right? And breast cancer is one of those spaces. So, I really didn't know a time in my life where I didn't know about breast cancer. It was absolutely part of the fabric, the thread, the tapestry of my family, if you will. And growing up, I had a first cousin. Her name was Linda Creed. She was a singer songwriter in the 1970s and 1980s. Brilliant, beautiful, larger than life, lit up every room she walked into, The Queen of Mottown Sound in Philadelphia.

[00:04:29]>> She wrote 54 hits in all. And her most famous song was The Greatest Love of All.

[00:04:35]>> So she wrote that song, right? Like >> iconic. Yeah. She wrote that song in 1977 as the title track to the movie The Greatest Star Muhammad Ali. But it really received its acclaim in March of 1986 when Whitney Houston would release that song to the world. And at that time it would spend 14 weeks at the top of the charts. Only my cousin Linda would never know because Linda died of metastatic breast cancer one month after Whitney released that song.

[00:05:04]>> I was 16 years old and my hero died.

[00:05:09]her life and ultimately her death gives birth to my life's purpose because I never want another woman, another family, another community to have to suffer the way that mine suffered. And so I did the only thing I knew how to do. I became a doctor, the first doctor in my family. I became a surgeon. I became the first fellowship trained breast surgeon in Philadelphia, the first encoplastic surgeon in Pennsylvania. And I did that really well and for a really long time. And I did it long enough for my aunt to be diagnosed and long enough for my mother. And then at 46, it was my turn to hear those words.

[00:05:44]>> Wow.

[00:05:45]>> And sitting in the office of my friend and colleague and physician and him telling me that I needed surgery and chemo and radiation and all the things that I say all day every day without hesitation or reservation. But when these words are coming at you, >> it has a different impact.

[00:06:04]And it was my first experience, literally my first experience as a patient. I had never been one before.

[00:06:12]>> Yeah.

[00:06:13]And while sitting in that chair opposite from the doctor and all I can think about in that time and space, despite the fact that I am a cancer surgeon running a cancer program, all I can think about in that time and space, all that I could hear was that there's something more. Go find it. And I had no idea what this something more was. But you can call it God. You can call it universe. You can call it whatever you want to call it. I >> I'll call it God.

[00:06:50]>> I'll call it God.

[00:06:51]>> I mean, I'm I'm a deeply religious person, so I call it God. But there are some people who are totally uncomfortable with that as an explanation. And so you can call it whatever you feel comfortable with. But I'm telling you that despite my conventional medical training, the fact that I was operating well within that conventional medical system, I couldn't quiet this voice.

[00:07:19]>> And so it sent me on a journey.

[00:07:22]>> A journey which was entirely selfish. It was how am I going to heal myself so that I don't leave behind two boys that aren't done me raising them yet and that this this life that I have dedicated myself to and on that journey because God is good I very early on discovered functional medicine >> and it was for me the bell that you couldn't unring Like once you see it, you can't unsee it. And once you use something to heal yourself that makes so much sense, all the stuff around you that you had been doing previously that doesn't make sense becomes unacceptable. So it was really the first time in my career where I had even asked are we doing things the right way? And one of the biggest, most egregious things that came up for me was, are we screening for breast cancer the right way? And the answer was a resounding no.

[00:08:39]>> What led you to believe that?

[00:08:42]>> You can start with the obvious that we are literally using a test that causes cancer to screen for cancer.

[00:08:48]>> Sure. It's radiation. Yeah, it's a radiationbased test. So in every scenario, you can ask the question, does radiation cause cancer? And the answer is a resounding yes. Right? It is a known carcinogen. It is classified as a known carcinogen. And yet if you ask any breast imager if mamograms cause cancer and they say no. Mhm.

[00:09:17]>> Now, I don't think that we have the exact number. I know that we can attribute at least 5% of the cancers that we see every single year to mamogram.

[00:09:33]Whether or not the the real answer is more is very very difficult to decipher.

[00:09:40]But because breast cancer is multiffactorial, however, I think that it is absolutely undeniable that we shouldn't be using something that contributes to the disease state to screen for the disease state. And it is especially egregious in the area of mutation carriers, right? people who have already declared by virtue of their genetic susceptibilities that they cannot handle extra environmental insults. Right? They just don't have the DNA repair mechanisms >> in order to handle extra environmental insults. And what do we do with those people? We screen them early. We screen them often. We essentially guarantee that they are going to develop the very disease that we, you know, allegedly want to protect them against, >> right?

[00:10:41]>> And when you look at the data on mammograms, it is exceedingly clear that from a population standpoint, there is no benefit. And in fact, from a population standpoint, we are hurting about a hundred times more women than we're helping.

[00:11:02]>> You know, Dr. Jen, a lot of people are going to have a tough time hearing this.

[00:11:05]>> I know >> because it goes against the narrative that has been spoken for decades about how we look for and potentially treat >> breast cancer. The term save lives is used in association with mammograms.

[00:11:22]There there is a narrative that is built around it. What you're saying flies in the face of that narrative. Now, my background is journalism and I have always been taught to question things, right? Question the why and look into that. And for me, there's always a red flag when you have one thing that's being pushed and promoted, told the only way. And I'm going to get into my story and I I know my story resonates with a lot of other women because they've been through this similar situation. But when you have only one way and the narrative is such that this is the only way to detect and I think about just the medical industry in general and the funding and the money and and I'm like why after all these decades do we only have just one way that's covered by insurance and this is the gold standard to me it reeks of monopoly and we know what that looks like in business. It never leads to anything good and it certainly doesn't lead to freedom of choice or necessarily anything better entering into the market. And I think this is what you're speaking to as well.

[00:12:34]>> So just going back to your very first point, why aren't we allowed to ask questions, >> right?

[00:12:40]>> Why aren't we allowed to explore other options? Why are we met with so much disdain when we say we don't want a mammogram? Why do they care so much? Why is it so important to them? Right? And you want to believe it's because they want to save lives and they really believe that that is the way to do it.

[00:13:06]>> Mhm.

[00:13:06]>> But if that were true, show me the data. Show me the data of what the last 60 years of screening with mammogram has done because we don't have less breast cancer, we have more. And we don't have less deaths from breast cancer. And this is the important point that no matter how many mammograms we do every year, the same number of women die of breast cancer. No matter how many mammograms we do every year, the same number of women present with aggressive disease and mammogram is having zero zero impact on the people who have aggressive disease on the women who are going to die of breast cancer. Mammogram has zero impact on that population. So all mammogram has done is identify at least 20 to 30% of the women diagnosed with breast cancer every year that don't need a diagnosis that would have never developed the disease that would have never been impacted over their lifetime. However, the money that it generates in screening them, in doing their diagnostic studies, in doing their biopsies, in treating them for breast cancer, and then in treating them for all the other disease states that breast cancer treatment brings about.

[00:14:43]>> You're talking about an amount of money that at this point we just call it too big to fail. And that is exactly what's going on.

[00:14:52]>> Yeah.

[00:14:53]>> Is that this this beast needs to be fed >> and that's that's exactly what's happening. It is not for the greater good. Now, do I think that the providers are consciously seeing this? Absolutely not.

[00:15:10]>> Right. I I agree with that. I I agree. I think that they truly believe that they are saving lives. I think that there are women out there who have been diagnosed with, let's say, early stage cancer feel like, my goodness, this mammogram saved my life. Um, so I I don't believe that a lot of people's intentions about this are sinister in any way in any way. I I think a lot of people truly believe that this works. It saves lives. It is it's the gold standard. It's what we have. I think what you're saying is we're using something that causes cancer when exposed to over time. You're also saying we are overdiagnosing and treating people whose bodies may in fact remediate the cancer because and I've heard this said many times by many doctors that we have cancer cells in our bodies all the time and there are c all the time and there are certain things that will trigger it to grow and become an actual tumor and then oftentimes when our body is fighting the good fight it will take care of the cancer on its own.

[00:16:15]So, and we have studies to prove that, right?

[00:16:19]>> We have autopsy studies on women of all ages, 20 year olds who died of other things, of things unrelated to breast cancer. They were in car accidents, they overdosed, suicides, what, whatever it may be, if you look at their breasts under the microscope, 20% of them have breast cancer by microscopic standards. Now >> do 20% of them have the disease? No.

[00:16:46]Absolutely not. Nothing like it.

[00:16:49]>> Nothing like it. Mhm.

[00:16:51]>> By using mamogram, we can get people into this system by recognizing these microscopic changes and do biopsies that you know if all you're looking at is cells instead of the totality of the person, you can say, "Yeah, this person has evidence of breast cancer, but they don't have breast cancer."

[00:17:18]>> Differentiate between the two. How what do you mean by that?

[00:17:20]>> They don't have a mass. They don't have any signs or symptoms of disease.

[00:17:26]>> All they have are some cells under the microscope. And that does not a breast cancer diagnosis make. And when you take that woman who does not have the disease, but all she has is microscopic evidence of breast cancer, and you then put her through the paces of breast cancer treatment, you will forever change her life. And not in a good way. Not in a good way.

[00:17:53]Because the treatments for breast cancer actually increase your risk of cardiovascular disease by 65%.

[00:18:03]Right? This is not a nominal increase.

[00:18:06]This is a major major increase. It increases your risk of neurogenerative disease. Unless anyone forget like we already have an Alzheimer's epidemic.

[00:18:16]>> Mhm.

[00:18:17]>> Right. So, we don't need to contribute to it and it increases your bone loss.

[00:18:24]So, less anyone forget, we have the same number of women die every year as complications of a fracture. as we do of breast cancer. So, how can we ethically or otherwise diagnose a woman with something that would have never affected her in her lifetime? And we have studies to prove this. This is not Jen Simmons going off on some crazy tangent. I'm just the messenger. I'm just the mouthpiece. I'm just the person that was brave enough to stand up and say, "Wait a minute. We're not getting it right here, guys. We're not.

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[00:25:21]Dr. Were you coming to all of these conclusions during the time where you had to choose how you were going to move forward with your breast cancer treatment?

[00:25:30]>> No. And I had thyroid. No. This all happened years later because what happens is when you start to see one thing, >> right?

[00:25:42]>> Then you start to see the next.

[00:25:43]>> The curtain gets pulled.

[00:25:45]>> Yes.

[00:25:45]>> Yeah.

[00:25:46]>> So, you know, had you asked me in 2016 how I felt about vaccines, I would have looked at you and said, "Of course, we need to vaccinate our children." Right?

[00:25:57]>> Because that's what I was taught. I was taught mammograms save lives. Vaccines save lives. I mean, and we were especially taught not to question that.

[00:26:08]>> That that was the science is settled, >> right? That's the science is settled.

[00:26:16]>> No one asked for the studies because we were told the science is settled. Like, why would I ask for the studies?

[00:26:23]And then your your blinders come off because of your own experience. And now you're like, "Okay, I want to see the studies."

[00:26:34]>> You know, as it turns out for vaccines, there aren't any, right? Like they simply don't exist.

[00:26:42]That's like Jack's magic beans, right?

[00:26:47]>> Unfortunately. Yes.

[00:26:49]>> Unfortunately.

[00:26:50]>> Yeah. For except for the data that's out there now that says that they don't do anything like what we were told they do.

[00:26:58]And in fact, they probably do the opposite.

[00:27:02]>> Um, but with regard to mammogram, the studies tell a very different story than we're told. So the the kind of landmark study that everyone in the world's mamographic screening program is built on is a study out of the UK in the 1960s and it was an invitation to screen study that was issued to people who I guess at that time were paying attention to their health because how else would you respond to an invitation and they were compared to the general population. So women who were invited to screen versus women who were not screening because it was the 1960s and who was screening for for breast cancer with mamogram, right?

[00:27:52]So it was an easy study to design >> but you have healthier women coming into the invitation to screen. So it's bias from the start. But what they notice is fascinating, which is that in the women that were invited to screen as compared to the women who weren't invited to screen, >> there were um four women in the invited to screen group that died of breast cancer as opposed to five women out of a thousand in the not invited to screen group, the general population group that died of breast cancer. And so from that study, they said, "Oh my god, look what mammogram does. It reduces your risk of dying from breast cancer by 20%." We should be screening everyone.

[00:28:43]>> What they didn't say, and you know, it doesn't account obviously for the bias that those are healthier women anyway, so they they should die less of breast cancer since breast cancer is an environmental disease and a metabolic disease. Mhm.

[00:28:57]>> But what they didn't say was the same number of women died of cancer in both groups. 13 women died of be of cancer in both groups. So the distribution was a little different in that group. But there was no overall survival advantage at all. And at the end of the day, if there's no overall survival advantage, if we're not saving lives, what are we doing? Now you can make an argument that well maybe it's not saving lives but it is saving breasts and that's a noble cause right if mamogs actually save breasts but didn't save lives you would say well I think that's a really good reason to to continue to do them but when you look at the data and what has happened since the advent of screening mamogram is that the masectomy rate has gone gone up by 20%.

[00:29:56]So, we're not saving lives and we're not saving breasts and women hate it. What are we doing? What are we doing? Well, there's a lot of fear um involved in all of this and the decision making as well, which I know often leads to that choice of mastctomy. It's like if something's in there and I don't want to deal with anything potentially growing, lob them off. And I think a lot of surgeons would probably agree and and say to a woman, >> you know, okay, if that's your choice, I'm gonna do that for you and support you.

[00:30:30]>> They would except that it doesn't save lives.

[00:30:33]>> And so it is the responsibility of the surgeon to mitigate that fear >> and to supply them with the truth so that they can make an educated decision.

[00:30:45]Because I will tell you, having been in that position for thousands and thousands and thousands of women, you cannot prepare a woman for the loss of her breasts. I don't care how good you are at your job and how vivid a picture you try to create, you cannot prepare a woman for the loss of her breast. That is something she will never wake up for another day in her life and not remember that she had breast cancer.

[00:31:20]>> And so as I as I went along in my career, I really I mean I was still a surgeon but I was very discouraging of mastctomy and I used to say to people of course there were people with cancer all throughout their breast and it wasn't a choice.

[00:31:37]>> Sure. But when it was a choice, I was always very clear that there is no survival advantage to mastctomy.

[00:31:45]>> And if you have your breast removed, no matter how good the reconstruction is, there will never come a day for the rest of your life where you won't remember that you had breast cancer. It will define you for the rest of your life.

[00:32:01]This is a very heavy burden to carry.

[00:32:04]And >> sure, >> later on, it was part of the reason why I wrote my book, The Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer, because women at every step along the breast cancer journey are making totally uneducated decisions.

[00:32:22]And they're not, it's not because they're uneducated, it's because they are not given the information in order to make that educated decision. Right?

[00:32:31]And sometimes it's just because the providers don't have the time or the headsp space or the bandwidth or whatever it is to give them that information. Sometimes it's because the providers just plum don't know it.

[00:32:49]>> They just don't know it or they're not thinking about it. They're not trained on it. But what my biggest objection is is that women are given a diagnosis and in the space of a day or two are asked to make these decisions that will affect them for the rest of their lives. And I don't know if you've ever had really something very traumatic happen to you, but you cannot think in that time period. And it's very intentional. This is an innate physiologic response because we only know two states. We only know safety and danger. And if we're in danger, we only understand primitive dangers. So, we don't understand that we just got a diagnosis and we really need to think hard about what we want to do.

[00:33:39]We know that there's a saber-tooth tiger chasing us and now is not the time to think. Now is the time to run, run, run like hell. So that's all we are physiologically capable of doing in that time and space. And yet we're asked to make probably what is one of the most important decisions of our lives, >> right? In the most emotional time as you state. Um you know, you mentioned all the things that can cause this and lead up to these quick decisions. And I will also say insurance companies factor into many things as well as screening. And I want to talk about that because that's that's part of my journey. And I also want to talk about the the next follow-up question to you after I share this story is, you know, what do you feel are the alternative best screening methods for breast cancer because there are many out there.

[00:34:30]>> Um, Dr. Jen, when I was in my early 20s, I had a lump in my breast and I went in, my OBG sent me to a breast surgeon, felt around. I got a had to get a mammogram at like 24 and dense breasts and I had a um a fibro benign fibroadinoma but the size of a golf ball.

[00:34:55]>> So they go in remove it test it everything benign everything fine. I am told at that point at the age of 24 that I should go in and have a mammogram every year because I'm quote high risk.

[00:35:08]I have no history of breast cancer in my family. I have a history of women in my family growing benign tissue and and tumors and things like that, but no cancer. So now I'm told to do all this.

[00:35:22]So immediately I have fear and panic in my life. Like, oh my gosh, I am I'm, you know, I'm destined for this. I'm doomed for this. I'm teed up for this. I'm different. And I start doing this year after year. And year after year, I'm going in for my mammogram. And after I get the mammogram, the radiologist says, "I can't read what's in here. you need an ultrasound.

[00:35:42]Like, okay. They do the ultrasound.

[00:35:44]Everything's clear. So, I'm like, huh?

[00:35:48]You know, at this point, I'm, you know, getting older and wiser, and I'm like, why don't we reverse things? Why don't we try the ultrasound first since I'm always getting sent there anyway, and if something off shows up in the ultrasound, then maybe we go in and do the mammogram. Well, Dr. I was hit with flatout nos from radiologists, screeners, insurance. I even said I will pay cash out of pocket to do it this way for the very reasons that you discussed. I didn't want to continue to expose myself to radiation, which I knew over the long haul was going to be problematic. So, I'm trying to flip the script on this story. And you know what? I'm not allowed to flip the script.

[00:36:32]So, I opted out out and I went the other route of doing her scan and doing ultrasound first and finding a way to do that first and then should anything show up weird or abnormal, find another way.

[00:36:48]But for me, mammogram was last choice in how I screen because it it rire of a system that had gone ary not for the ultimate care for the women, but this is how we do it. And I didn't like that I didn't have a choice in the matter.

[00:37:05]>> What do you say about that?

[00:37:07]>> So, I'm I'm gonna send it right back to you. Like how do you feel about the fact that your the system >> has decided what you can and can't do for your body? Like your medical autonomy.

[00:37:24]>> That's right. I was angry. I was angry.

[00:37:27]It made me mad that I I pay for insurance and here I am now having to pay out of pocket for something that should be covered. And even when you offer to pay out of pocket, you still get heartache about it.

[00:37:43]>> I got a hard no. Even when I offered to pay out of pocket in a major medical hospital, I got a hard no. Anytime I have asked for the reversal, I have had the look of shame from technicians who say, you know, mammogram is the best way to screen for things. Like we we can agree to to disagree. I know I know my breasts. I know my tissue. I know the pattern here. I'm I'm trying to honor my body, but nobody wanted to hear it. So, and and all of this, you know, this conversation may be um jarring for a lot of women to hear. Maybe some of them are like, "Hey, right there with you. Maybe some of them are hearing this kind of stuff for the first time." And all I'm saying is is because you and I are speaking to something that is completely opposite to what the system preaches, keep an open mind. Keep a curious mind and learn and then make the best decision for you, which is what I had to do. But I was really disheartened and disappointed in the whole process.

[00:38:47]>> So they are still in the like because I said so parenting phase.

[00:38:52]>> Yeah. Right.

[00:38:52]>> That's what it felt like.

[00:38:54]>> Yeah. But that that's essentially what it is. Like if you if you ask them to just tell me why.

[00:39:03]>> If you dare question them, they get very angry. They get very defensive. That is always the red flag for me.

[00:39:12]>> Like me, too.

[00:39:13]>> We're just we're just having a conversation here. What are you so upset about?

[00:39:19]>> And they're furious. I mean, I have radiologists you DMing me on Instagram about how horrible I am. Say, listen, >> you don't we don't have to do it in the back alley.

[00:39:31]>> Let Let's do it out in the open. Let's have a discussion. Well, I'm not having a discussion with you. I'm not having a debate with you. Why?

[00:39:40]>> Why won't you have a discussion with me?

[00:39:43]What are you afraid of? What are you afraid of talking about? What are you afraid of hearing? And that's what it comes down to.

[00:39:50]They are deathly afraid and virtually incapable of hearing or seeing the truth because it would mean that what they have done for all of these years wasn't the right thing even though they did it unknowingly. Listen, I can't count the number of mammograms I ordered in my career. I was a surgeon for 20 years. I mean, I'm still a surgeon, but I'm not practicing as a surgeon, >> right? I can't count the number of mamograms. Listen, if you are not embarrassed by something that you did six months ago, then you are not learning. You are not >> right. Where's humility, right? We we all make we all do things that we learn and grow from.

[00:40:36]>> And we do the best that we can do with the information that we have at the time, but as the information changes, so must our minds. But it comes down to this Upton Sinclair quote for me time and time again. And it says that you cannot teach a man something when his livelihood depends on him not knowing it. And that's where they are. That's where they are. You cannot teach the blind to see. But anyone who says, "I don't want to do that." And gets questioned and gets a lot of push back, you should run. You should run away from that >> because when it doesn't make sense, it's because it's wrong.

[00:41:22]>> It's because it's wrong and they're just hiding behind because I said so or that's just the way we do things.

[00:41:30]>> Well, if that's just the way you do things, but they're wrong, stop doing them, >> right?

[00:41:36]>> Stop. We know better. Stop. And there are better ways. Now, the the conventional system does not want me to talk about the better ways, but frankly, Scarlet, I don't give a damn.

[00:41:53]>> Right. All right. I I hear you. So, Dr. Jen, what are the better ways in your opinion?

[00:41:59]>> Well, you started off by saying, "I know my breasts."

[00:42:02]>> Right. I know my breasts. I know my body. Everyone should feel that way.

[00:42:08]There is not a woman out there who does not think her breasts are lumpy. That's okay. Own your lumps. It's okay.

[00:42:15]>> Just examine yourself. See what you look like. See what you feel like. You don't have to do it every day. You don't have to do it every week. Once a month is enough. Look and feel and make sure that you know what you feel like when you're normal so that you can recognize when there's been a change. So, I think everyone should be examining themselves.

[00:42:34]>> And when you say a change, I I've been told that breast cancer is hard. that it feels. Is that right?

[00:42:41]>> Yes.

[00:42:41]>> Or no, it is.

[00:42:42]>> Yes, it it's hard. It's unyielding. So, the fibroadnoma that you had in your breast, usually you can wiggle that around. It's like there's a marble in your breast and you can roll it around.

[00:42:55]>> That is not true of breast cancer because what happens with breast cancer is, and this is why we call it invasive, it's because it invades the tissue around it. So though you can feel a lump, you cannot separate it from the tissue around it. So the whole kind of breast moves together when there's a cancer.

[00:43:15]>> But there are different forms of cancer.

[00:43:17]So sometimes it will feel like a lump and sometimes it will just feel like a thickening >> like your breast is just thicker in this area, right? And sometimes it will start in the ducts and it won't present as a lump at all but that you'll start to have nipple discharge.

[00:43:38]>> Right?

[00:43:38]>> So there are lots of things that we should be looking for. We should feel a lump. We should feel for thickening. We should notice if we have nipple discharge. You don't have to check. It will come out on its own.

[00:43:50]>> And then you should look at your breast and look for dimpling or bulges or skin changes or any of those things. Right?

[00:43:57]Those are the clinical signs of breast cancer.

[00:44:02]>> But beyond that, because I'm not so much about detection as I am about prevention. And we are in the age where we can do that now. We can find breast cancer before it becomes a disease, before it becomes clinically evident.

[00:44:20]And we can do things like the tear test where we measure a sample of your tears.

[00:44:27]You don't have to poke your eye out or anything like that. It's just a tiny lmus paper that you put inside of your lid and close your eye for five minutes.

[00:44:34]>> And we can look at the tears and look for these inflammatory proteins that are highly highly predictive of the early stages of breast cancer. And I hear critics of this say all the time, well, these aren't specific to breast cancer.

[00:44:52]No, they're not. But they have been clinically validated that when they are both elevated to a critical level, it is highly predictive of breast cancer.

[00:45:04]>> So it's not going to be something else that's causing this. And if they are elevated, you are at risk for breast cancer. And that is opportunity. Now, everyone needs imaging to make sure that they don't have breast cancer right now.

[00:45:18]But this has a 93% sensitivity for breast cancer. It's better than any other imaging other than MRI. Better than any other imaging.

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[00:50:08]Speaking of imaging, because I know that's going to be the next question for the first time I've heard about that tear test, which is fascinating. And of course, inflammation is the known cause of all disease, whether it be cancer or autoimmune. So looking for inflammatory markers in your body in any way possible, I think is the first thing anybody should do.

[00:50:28]>> But I'm 100% certain that this technology is going to transcend. That's how we're going to screen for colon cancer. It's how we're going to screen for autoimmune disease. It's how we're going to screen for prostate cancer.

[00:50:40]It's how we're going to screen for everything.

[00:50:42]>> But right now, it's validated for breast. Okay. Well, I mean, at least it's a start and it's the first I'm hearing about this, so I know I'm going to start researching and do a deep dive because that's what I like to do. But a lot of people, I mean, we are taught and it's been burned in, you know, image, image, scan. So, if a woman wants an image, wants to see something, what do you recommend? What I mean, you said MRI. I mentioned ultrasound. What's out there? What's available? And it's not to say that a mammogram should never happen, but it I think what you're trying to get across is that it doesn't have to be your first line of defense.

[00:51:17]Is that >> Well, I don't think I don't think a mammogram should ever happen for screening purposes.

[00:51:22]>> Okay.

[00:51:22]>> I reserve mammogram for okay, we know there's something there. You need the help of a breast surgeon. You need to speak their language. They're only going to talk to you if you turn up with a mammogram. Get a mammogram. Right? That is my that is where mammogram lands for me now >> happens right >> what I do for imaging and I have uh an imaging center in the suburbs of Philadelphia and I'm opening up six more right this second is a lot um but we're using QT which is circumferential sound waves transmitted through a warm water bath that creates a true 3D reconstruction of the breast without pain compression or radiation.

[00:52:06]>> Got it?

[00:52:06]>> So, in what feels like a spa visit for your breast, you get imaged for breast cancer. And this is a the most thoughtful patient centered approach I could have ever imagined. I wish I imagined it right. I am just the champion of the technology. I did not invent it and I am never doing imaging alone because imaging alone is not the thing that's that is the old way of thinking where >> where disease has already developed and we're going to pick it up then so I am always doing a history to look for those things that I know put you at risk for breast cancer. I am doing a metabolic screen.

[00:53:01]Right? So, what do your what do your body composition metrics look like? What do your your markers look like? Where are you from a metabolic standpoint?

[00:53:14]Because that really matters because that is one of the major major precursors of breast cancer is metabolic dysfunction.

[00:53:22]>> Dial that in a little bit more could that could be kind of like a big vague thing for a woman listening right now.

[00:53:27]So, when you say metabolic markers, what do you mean specifically? So we are looking at things like triglycerides, HDL and the ratio of it. It should be one to one. We are looking at a high sensitivity C reactive protein. We're looking at your blood pressure. We're also looking at some body compos composition metrics. So we are looking at your waist circumference. We're looking at your uh waist to hip ratio.

[00:53:55]And we're taking all of that into account in that are you metabolically healthy or are you metabolically dysfunctional? Where's your glucose?

[00:54:05]Where's your insulin? Where's your A1C?

[00:54:08]We're thinking about all of this because it matters. So, if I see something on your imaging, but your metabolic health is spoton and your tears test is negative, I'm gonna say that thing on your imaging is nothing >> and let's follow it >> as opposed to someone who has a whole lot of metabolic dysfunction and has a tears test that is that has a a critically positive result.

[00:54:40]Now that same thing that I'm seeing on the imaging I'm like >> that looks different now >> might be something >> might be something >> you know in this metabolic testing that you talk about Dr. Jen, it's not like this is some fancy pants blood work that's getting this is basic blood work that you're talking about that happens in everybody's annual screening.

[00:55:00]>> It should happen in everyone's annual screening.

[00:55:03]>> I don't know that it is happening in everyone's annual screening, but it should be happening in everyone's annual screening. And if we monitored people's metabolic health, if we if we screened for metabolic dysfunction with the same commitment that we're screening for breast cancer, this world would be a far different place >> because if we picked up metabolic dysfunction in its infancy, we would miss out on a lot of chronic disease.

[00:55:35]>> Absolutely. because everything you mentioned essentially boils down to lifestyle. I mean your your you know your ratios all of that a healthy lifestyle a healthy BMI a healthy body that's getting rest that's moving that's eating properly has healthy and balanced numbers. Now, it's not a a 100% determiner that you won't have disease, right? But it certainly does minimize the risk for sure, >> right? You can have good metabolic health and still get mold illness.

[00:56:08]>> You can have good metabolic health and still have parasite burden. You can have good metabolic health and still have cavitations in your mouth from having had root canal surgery 10 years ago or 20 years ago. That kind of thing, right?

[00:56:23]It doesn't preclude having disease, but all else being equal, if you have metabolic health, everything else is better. Everything else, as Maria Forlio would say, is figure outable.

[00:56:36]>> That's right.

[00:56:37]>> Right.

[00:56:37]>> That's right. You know, I'm curious about something. You mentioned this new technology for breast screening. Um, you so soundwave, is that correct?

[00:56:46]>> What's the difference between soundwave and ultrasound? Yes.

[00:56:50]So when you're when you're having your typical ultrasound, the handheld ultrasound or even the automated ultrasound, that's all reflection ultrasound. So the sound beams are coming out, coming back, read by the transducer, and and that is the image that you're getting, which is still a fairly low resolution image. So, you're still going to have a lot of false positives. And the ability of that to um follow people is very variable because you have a new technician every time and someone's going to put the calipers in one place or another. And the way that you measure volume on that is length, by width, by height, right? As opposed to true 3D imaging that comes from both transmission and reflection, we are collecting 200,000 times more data points than MRI. So, a lot more information goes into the algorithm.

[00:57:53]It's way beyond my pay grade to understand how it computes all of this, but just suffice to say that it creates a true 3D reconstruction of the breast.

[00:58:05]So in in terms of being able to follow something, the variables are simply not there in that it's very repeatable and it measures a true volume. So it's not length by width by height, but it can see all the little indentations and interdigitations and create and calculate a true volume.

[00:58:34]And so from that we can measure a doubling time.

[00:58:39]>> And we know that cancers or things that we need to worry about have a doubling time of less than 100 days. So if you have a lesion that's doubling in less than 100 days, you know that needs attention, >> right?

[00:58:53]>> Right. This is the person that you are do not pass go, do not collect $100, like go right to the breast surgeon. If you have something that has a greater doubling time, like I had a woman this week who has a lesion in her breast, there's no doubt she has a lesion in her breast. We've seen it now three times.

[00:59:11]>> And it has a doubling time of 700 days.

[00:59:15]So, you know, every two plus years it's doubling in size. This is not anything for us to worry about. This is never going to hurt her in her lifetime. And >> how do you know that? How do you know that definitively? Is that because cancer just grows that quickly compared to non-cancer?

[00:59:35]>> Yes.

[00:59:35]>> Okay.

[00:59:36]>> Yes. Cancer that you need to worry about. Again, >> we all have cancer.

[00:59:42]>> Cancer, right? I got you.

[00:59:43]>> We all have cancer. There are no exceptions to this rule, right? Like none of us are perfect and every one of us are going to reproduce cells and not do it right. What was that movie with Michael Keaton?

[00:59:56]>> Copy. Uh carbon copy.

[00:59:58]>> Yeah.

[00:59:59]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:00]>> Remember like version three?

[01:00:02]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:04]>> Right. Like we're all going to do that.

[01:00:06]>> Sure.

[01:00:06]>> We're all going to do that. And for most of us, thank God, it's not going to matter.

[01:00:14]>> Like >> we just don't go on to get cancer, to get the disease, >> right?

[01:00:22]Having cellular microscopic evidence of something is not the same as having the disease.

[01:00:30]>> And we need to start to make that distinction because treating breast cancer is not benign. It's not it it forever it will shorten the duration of your life and not because you're dying of breast cancer because you're dying of cardiovascular disease or neurodeenerative disease or osteoporosis and it will significantly diminish the quality of your life because once you take a woman's hormones away and that is happening whether you have a hormone hormone negative cancer, in which case you're going to get bombarded with chemotherapy, or you have a hormone positive cancer, in which case they're going to give you anti hormonals.

[01:01:18]>> And so estrogen is the hormone of life.

[01:01:24]>> So when you take away the estrogen, because that's what all of the all of these drugs target, specifically estrogen. They're not targeting progesterone.

[01:01:33]But when you take away a woman's estrogen, she can't think. She can't sleep. She's anxious. She's depressed.

[01:01:40]She has palpitations, increased cardiovascular disease. Her bones ache. Her joints ache. She's gained weight. Um, she's tired. She doesn't have the energy she used to have. She's getting yeast infections, urinary tract infection. She has no libido. Her relationship is significantly suffering or gone by now.

[01:02:05]>> And Life does not feel like life.

[01:02:10]So if you give them a sign that says, "I survived, but this is what survival looks like and feels like."

[01:02:19]>> This isn't it.

[01:02:21]>> Right. Like >> as my son would say, "Mom, that's not how it works."

[01:02:27]>> And so that's the title of my next book, The Forgotten Woman.

[01:02:31]>> Yeah.

[01:02:32]>> Wow. you know, >> literally we have literally forgotten about these women.

[01:02:37]>> Yeah, there are so many layers to this.

[01:02:39]There are so many layers from from the screening the screening options which we have been talking about. Um I'm assuming in the book that you're going to write if you haven't already discussed this, but you know your what did you choose to do when you were diagnosed with breast cancer? What was your protocol? And if you were diagnosed with that same cancer today, would you do the same thing or would you treat it differently?

[01:03:03]>> So I had thyroid, which is another cancer that is totally totally totally overdiagnosed.

[01:03:11]>> And the problem with it is that everyone gets told that they need their thyroid gland removed, >> right? and everyone uh is put on thyroid hormone replacement and it's never right again. And the amount of metabolic dysfunction that is suffered because of it because the thyroid is the master >> of our metabolic health that starts the slippery slope of the rest of your life of chronic disease.

[01:03:43]>> And I didn't realize that at the time. I only had God to protect me. Because how the how the conversation actually started in my head was why would God give me this organ that I cannot live without >> only to take it out and have it replaced by something that did not come from God and make it make sense. And I couldn't.

[01:04:12]And that's why I didn't I didn't treat.

[01:04:15]And my doctor told me I would die. Wow.

[01:04:18]>> And I don't blame him for telling me that because that was the right thing to say, I guess. Um I mean, he wasn't right, but it was the right thing to say in that he was telling me what the standard of care taught him to say. Now, it worked out for me, and thank God it worked out for me. for women who are going through a breast cancer diagnosis.

[01:04:45]I I want to be clear. I am not saying not to treat. I am saying take a moment, take a breath, take a pause, read my book, The Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer, because in here has all the questions that you should be asking and getting the answers to before you agree to treatment. And I'm not only talking about, you know, what's going to happen to you right after surgery or during chemotherapy. I'm talking to you about what the rest of your life is going to look like and what the impact of these decisions over time look like.

[01:05:28]And I'm especially addressing the 800B gorilla in the room that is estrogen does not cause breast cancer and giving women hormone replacement after breast cancer does not lead to recurrences. It just doesn't. It's a narrative that the pharmaceutical companies would very much like you to believe. They would very much like you to believe that hormones cause cancer because if you are not taking hormones and let's even put the I mean we don't have to put the cancer thing aside but if you if you don't take hormones after menopause you are set up for a world of pharmaceuticals. You're set up for sleeping medications. You're set up for anti-anxiety medications. You're set up for anti-dopressant medications. You're set up for um bone medications, for reflux medications, for arthritis medications, for weight loss medications, for antibiotics, for your bladder infections, for lubricants, for I mean I can go on and on and on, right?

[01:06:46]So you can either do hormone replacement or you can take 6 7 8 9 10 pharmaceuticals.

[01:06:55]Now I know what I chose but most women if you don't know or understand that bioididentical hormones are do not put you at increased risk of breast cancer or anything else. If you believe that they're going to make you more likely to get breast cancer, you're going to choose the pharmaceuticals all day long, right? If you don't know, you can't see.

[01:07:27]You can't see it. and until someone calls it out. And you know, there's a there was a great paper last month, March of um 2026, that basically absolved estrogen of the blame, >> right? How long did that take?

[01:07:45]>> Yeah. So, unfortunately, it took 23 years.

[01:07:49]>> It took 23 years to absolve estrogen of the blame. And now we've had two decades of providers who are un or undertrained.

[01:08:01]Right.

[01:08:02]>> Yeah.

[01:08:03]>> So even though I think hormone replacement is having a moment, if we decided tomorrow universally that hormone replacement is safe, who's going to do it? What are they going to use? How are they going to dose it? How are they going to deliver it? How are they going to follow it? Because the only thing that our current providers are trained on are birth control pills.

[01:08:29]>> They don't know anything beyond that.

[01:08:30]And birth control pills are are part of the problem.

[01:08:34]>> Sure.

[01:08:34]>> Birth control pills are part of the reason why we have all the stigma around hormone replacement because they can jane contain progesterins.

[01:08:45]>> Tin correct. And not progesterone.

[01:08:46]>> That is the cancer-causing agent.

[01:08:48]>> Yeah. Yeah. I you know what Dr. Jen, I've had so many um good friends who have left the OBGYn world um as they went through menopause themselves and realized that they were doing such a disservice to their patients who were in that space because they didn't receive the adequate training and now it wasn't until they were in the throws of it, which sounds so similar to your story too in just a different way. But many of them have have crossed over, you know, big names that we all follow on social media who were like, "Wait a second, you know, this isn't right. This we were not told. We we were now having to learn and dig up and really understand and do the studies and and we're finally finally helping women in an arena to tee them up for at least good health for the rest of their lives." And I feel like in a way you're that person in the breast health space who's kind of waving the flag and saying, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, the way we've been doing things may not be the best service to women." You're questioning it. You're throwing out data and information. You're saying, "Well, why don't we try this other way of screening, or why not look at the whole woman and the metabolic picture? Why not look at, you know, the information that you're getting from the tear duct screening?" So you're you're throwing out, you know, the language is very similar but in a different lane. Yes.

[01:10:11]Exactly. Common sense. Um, you know, and I know that these types of conversations can be very scary to hear because when you are questioning an establishment, when you are questioning what you have been told for decades upon decades of how to do things, um, it can be frightening and a little disheartening to even sit there and question, wow, you know, was I really told what was best for me? Um, or is that just what the system produces?

[01:10:40]>> You know, we don't have to go back and rehash it.

[01:10:43]>> Yeah. Right. This isn't about me saying, "Told you so orh" or anything like that.

[01:10:50]>> Like, I'm grateful for the Mary Cla Havers that are out there using their voices and changing things. And I'm sure she is exactly who you were referring to in >> when she went through her own journey and realized, wait, maybe we're not exactly getting it right. And I think the the point is not to so much go back and blame, but to get to that place where you realize, hey, maybe we're not exactly getting it right.

[01:11:21]>> And and call that day one.

[01:11:24]>> Yeah.

[01:11:24]>> Right. And just move on from there. Call it day one. It's okay to have a day one.

[01:11:31]>> It's okay. Right. It doesn't mean you didn't do anything wrong before, but it is wrong to not move forward, to not progress, to not commit yourself to learning because we don't have it all figured out. No one has it all figured out, >> right?

[01:11:54]>> And you know, we were really taught in medical school that most of what we learned won't be true in five years. And yet somehow we forgot that and we took it all as dogma. And that's where that's where we are. We have a lot of dogma, very little facts to back it up. And people have just decided for whatever the reason that they're willing to go down with the ship.

[01:12:22]>> I am not. I am all about making this world a better place. And part of why I left surgery wasn't because I didn't love it or I wasn't good at it or anything like that. It was because being a surgeon for me was playing so small.

[01:12:42]Yes, I would help thousands of women, but I was playing in a sandbox that was so small and I knew that I wasn't impacting women in the way that I wanted to impact women. And it was only by leaving and putting myself in a position where I could affect millions and really shining a bright light on the places where we're getting it wrong. And I just knew that my purpose I was very much put here by God to change the conversation around breast cancer to change the way forever change the way that we diagnose that we treat and that we survive breast cancer.

[01:13:29]>> Yeah. I you know what to me information is everything. Getting information being informed finding the right sources of information. You know, for a lot of women who are listening to this podcast or watching Dr. Jen, this may be the first time that they are hearing the words that you're speaking, which fly in the face of what they have been told for a lifetime.

[01:13:51]>> I see.

[01:13:52]>> Yeah. What would you encourage women to do to be the best advocates for themselves in this arena? Um, what should they do? Where should they start?

[01:14:03]Where can where can they go for more information so they can make the best most informed decision for themselves? I I am all about this is not about telling women what to do, how to do my way may not be her way. That's none of this. It is being informed and educated and then making the right choice for you. Hey, that's why I got into the news business in the first place is because I believed in that paradigm of hearing all sides of the equation and then deciding where I align. And I still hold true to that today. I'm not here to spoon feed anybody anything. I'm here to educate and inform. So for a woman who's like, "All right, you know, you've piqued my interest here. Where do I start?"

[01:14:46]>> Yeah. Well, first I want to tell everyone that whatever decision you made yesterday, last week, last month, last year, last five years, you made the best decision with the information that you had at the time.

[01:15:01]>> Absolutely.

[01:15:01]>> And today is another day. So I agree with you. I think it is all about getting the information and then tapping into your intuition and doing what's right for you. And what's right for you may not be right for everyone, but the only person that you need to answer to is you. People ask me all the time when they come to perfection, well, what if my doctor doesn't accept this as imaging? And I say, do you do you accept it? Because if you accept it, that's all that matters. We can't worry about what your doctor thinks. Your doctor needs to worry about what your doctor thinks. We can only worry about what you think. Not not to put pressure on people, but the patient really is the doctor of the future. You're no one is going to know you better than you know yourself.

[01:15:54]>> No one. So, as much as you go to see that doctor that you've known for years and you see them every year, the the amount that they know you is directly proportionate to the amount of time that you spend with them. So if you're spending 15 minutes with them a year, they don't know you.

[01:16:14]>> Yeah.

[01:16:14]>> They don't.

[01:16:15]>> You know you and you need to dial in and trust. And if you are if your Spidey sense is going up when you decide that you want to have an ultrasound and you go and you are being pressured to have a mammogram and the hair is standing up on the back of your neck, there's a reason.

[01:16:36]>> Question it.

[01:16:37]>> Right? If they're if the behavior is unusual, question that. Trust your intuition.

[01:16:47]Uh and literally, you know, for everyone, I wrote the smart woman's guide to breast cancer. It's not just for the woman going through a breast cancer diagnosis. Of course, it will help her because it will give her two things. It will first give her the information that is involved in the decision making for treatment and how to build her treatment team and the questions to ask and what all the treatments are about. Yes.

[01:17:18]But everyone who gets a breast cancer diagnosis gets a treatment plan. But what everyone needs is a health plan.

[01:17:26]And that is really primarily what is inside of that book. And with that health plan, you're not only preventing a recurrence or helping you to reverse disease, >> right?

[01:17:39]>> But you're also preventing a primary diagnosis. So it's not just for the woman going through breast cancer treatment. It's for her sister, it's for her mother, it's for her cousin, it's for her neighbor, it's for her teacher, it's for her colleague. It's that that's who I wrote it for.

[01:17:55]>> Right.

[01:17:55]>> It's an overall disease prevention book is what you wrote. Yes.

[01:17:59]>> Yes. Because at the end of the day, breast health is health. And the same exact things that we're doing to have healthy breasts are going to give us a healthy brain and a healthy heart, healthy skin, healthy bones, healthy joints, healthy gut, healthy libido, healthy mood, healthy everything.

[01:18:17]>> And that's what we all need, >> right?

[01:18:20]>> If not the truth.

[01:18:22]>> Yeah. We have so much more power than we think. We cannot farm our health out to the conventional medical system because they don't know how to make us healthy.

[01:18:32]>> It's not a goal of theirs.

[01:18:34]>> Yeah, >> it's just not. Your doctor might be kind, might be wonderful, might be there might be a lot of accolades, but your doctor is not there to make you healthy because your doctor is not working for free. And there is no way for your doctor to get paid. There's no way for hospitals to get paid. There's no way for anyone to get paid currently if you're healthy. They only get paid if you're sick. And the entire system is designed >> for you to get sick.

[01:19:05]>> Yeah, >> that's exactly right. But we can choose, >> right? Well, exactly. Exactly. And and that's ultimately what it comes down to.

[01:19:16]it comes to education and then choice and sticking to your guns about your choice because there's a reason why you think and feel the way that you do. And I think you and I are both here to open up to have that conversation and to maybe validate a woman who has thought all along, you know what, I' I've felt this way or I've thought this way and I've never been able to put it into words or understood why, but but now I get it. So, you know, if something feels off, generally it is. Yeah, >> question it, look into it. Um, you mentioned your center where you offer this new way of detecting for breast cancer. So, it's in Philadelphia. You said you're opening six more. Where are your locations? Just for those who might be interested.

[01:19:59]>> I'm not going to say yet, but if you follow me on Instagram, Dr. Jen Simmons, D RJN, the there's a Jewish thing that we don't put things out into the world. We we don't talk about the birth of the baby until the baby is born, >> right?

[01:20:16]>> And so, um, if you follow me at Dr. Jen Simmons, I promise not to keep it quiet once they're open, >> but they're in very, very, very major major major major cities.

[01:20:26]>> Okay. So, coming soon to a city near you is what we can say, right? Yeah. And what's the name of it?

[01:20:32]>> It's called Perfection Imaging. And perfection is spelled with a QT in the middle. So, perfection I imaging.com pqt io n.

[01:20:41]>> Got it. Which is the name of the machine itself, right?

[01:20:44]>> The m the name of the machine is QT, but we're doing so much more there.

[01:20:48]>> Yeah. Well, you know what? I I honestly and wholeheartedly appreciate just the honesty of this conversation. Not everybody may agree with it and that's okay. Um that's life, you know. We we are blessed to live in a society where we can have these conversations and people can agree, people can disagree and and lucky us is all I have to say.

[01:21:12]So if you >> My husband always asks, "Would you rather be right or happy?" And I say, "I'd rather be right."

[01:21:22]>> Well, in this case, when it comes to health, I can kind of understand that.

[01:21:25]And being right does make you happy in the end.

[01:21:28]>> So Dr. Jen, so happy to have you and and this conversation. I know that um it's just going to open up a firestorm of questions and comments which people can leave here if they're watching us on YouTube. Um and and I just appreciate you. I I appreciate just the fact that you are questioning things that you your own personal life and experience has made you think about things. But really what I picked up on in the beginning is that I get the sense that you have a God mission in that you want to have impact that this isn't about, you know, what can I do for me, but what can I take what I have experienced and learned and how can I embolden and empower other women to better inform them, educate them, and maybe make better decisions for themselves. So, you know, I admire and applaud any woman who gets on that mission because it is indeed mission work and I I think it's noble. So, um thank you. I know you've probably taken a lot of heat for your positions and uh yeah, I know I I know I take heat too for a lot of things. So, it's a space I'm familiar with as well. Um but that's okay. That's okay. Um I'm so grateful grateful for you. Grateful for the conversation and uh and I wish you all the best. Thank you so much and thank you for having me today. It was wonderful.

[01:22:48]>> Thank you. What an honest and enlightening conversation for sure. If anything, um maybe sparking some thought in you and hopefully some time to research and to find information that maybe aligns with your belief system.

[01:23:03]But I really do appreciate thought leaders on this podcast and I'm always looking for more in any arena that caters to women over 50 and flourishing.

[01:23:13]Um, big thanks to Dr. Jen. Thanks to you for being here. You know, this podcast is made possible by you and you being here and you sharing Over 50 and Flourishing. So, if you are listening like Apple, Spotify, whatever, wherever you listen, I would love it if you wouldn't mind just taking the time to rate, review, subscribe, and share Over 50 and Flourishing. Maybe there's a woman in your life, like Dr. Jen was saying, you know, maybe breast disease isn't your thing, but a friend, a co-orker, a colleague, you know, somebody who could benefit from the information. That's kind of how I feel about the content on this podcast. Maybe there's somebody in your life who could benefit from this conversation. So, sharing is caring that we know. And if you're watching on YouTube, you can leave a comment below. Leave a comment for Dr. Jen. Um, give me a thumbs up and also some ideas of what you would like to see on this podcast. But I always appreciate you being with me on this journey. It's a joy for me as a journalist. Um, you know, that's something I get to take with me whether I work for a news outlet or not. But I get to bring my desire to ask questions and desire to learn and provide information to you, the viewer, uh, to help you be better informed about the decisions that you get to make in your life. So, thank you for being here and I'll see you next week.