Keep Your Christianity Out of Politics? Think Again.

Added: 2026-05-28

[00:00:00]What are our options on laws? Who gives the laws? Whose morality are we going off of? If you have people involved, it's just going to get corrupt. As I thought, I said, there has to be something we can follow that is always true, that is always right, and is always designed to benefit people.

[00:00:27]Should Christian morality be enforced by law, or is that religious extremism?

[00:00:32]That's what we're talking about today.

[00:00:33]But before we get started, make sure to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell so you never miss an episode. Kirkles, I can just hear it now. Uh, Christian nationalism, theocracy. This is a really good subject and I highly recommend that you watch this whole thing because many people make the argument, you know, even the founders, even Jesus himself would not want Christian morality to be legislated. But you have to understand that there's only so many options for how we get our laws. This is a deep dive into that. And you will be smarter than all of your friends if you understand this topic. I was having a conversation with my friend Matthew. And Matthew, he's kind of a guy who just knows a bunch of random facts. And he was telling me in the car while we were going to get some Mexican food, he said, "Did you know there used to be laws that were called seduction laws? Essentially, it was illegal for a man to pursue or seduce a woman who was in a marriage already. He could literally go to jail for doing that." I was like, "Well, that sounds like a good law. That sounds like a law that should still be in place today."

[00:01:48]>> But with that, there's a big moral claim that adultery is wrong. But that was implemented into our laws and our judicial system itself. So, I did a deep dive into laws that used to be in place in early America that aren't in place today. And I want to go over a couple of those. And some of them are honestly kind of shocking. This is fascinating to me because I can think of some laws right now that are no longer on the books. Actually, there's some laws that are on the books right now that would be shocking to you if you saw them in some states and yet they're just not enforced. So, let's get into it. And and and this hopefully is going to help us to understand uh whether or not we should have any laws and if we're going to have laws, what are laws? Who should determine what's illegal and what's legal and how should they be punished? I think the first one we can go over is the adultery law. That was a law that was in place from the 1700s up until the mid to late 1900s. Wow. Actually, in some of the states where it was illegal to commit adultery, to have sexual relations outside of one's marriage >> and you could go to jail or you could pay super super heavy fines.

[00:02:58]>> So, that's a big moral claim, which is it is wrong to be unfaithful to your spouse while you are in a marriage covenant. And that does sound extreme to us today like you can't make a law saying you can't commit adultery. Oh yes you can. And they're like no you you can't do that. You got to let people do what they want especially because now it's all about love is love and and and you can you know say that this is not the person I love. Kenny Loggins had a song about that. I did it for you and the boys cuz love should bring you joy and not the imitation that your mama and daddy tried to show you. Right. Or how about the guy from Beartooth the band.

[00:03:33]He just came out the other day. said he was a Christian, but now he's come out as gay. So, he left his wife of 14 years. And we would never say it's illegal. We say it's it's coming out as your true self. And his wife feels compelled to support him so that she doesn't seem anti-gay. Have a friend who did the same thing. Left his wife and his four kids after over a decade of being married so that he could be with guys. Another one was the seduction law which we previously talked about which is where it is illegal for a man to pursue or seduce a married woman. Yeah.

[00:04:07]>> So it's similar to the adultery law.

[00:04:09]Another law that was actually legal for a long time was slavery. So it's the opposite of a law that was illegal. It was legal to own other people. And another law that followed up slavery becoming illegal was segregation. that it was illegal for >> African-Americans to walk into certain restaurants or sit in certain places where it was designated for only white people.

[00:04:36]>> So, there's segregation laws and some of the segregation laws didn't actually get >> dissolved up until the civil rights era in 1960. So, that's that's pretty recent that those laws >> Yeah.

[00:04:47]>> were still in place. Another one that we can go over is the prohibition.

[00:04:52]>> No alcohol.

[00:04:53]>> No alcohol. And that was a huge huge thing. And a lot of people did not follow that law.

[00:04:59]>> No. I I was in that cave here in Tennessee where they had these this underground speak easy. And during prohibition where you couldn't get alcohol anywhere else, they had like secret stashes of moonshine and white lightning down inside a cave in Tennessee and they had like, you know, dance floors and restaurants and distilleries down there. It's actually pretty cool.

[00:05:17]>> Yeah. And even today in Tennessee on Easter, Thanksgiving, and Christmas, you're unable to buy or sell alcohol.

[00:05:25]>> That's right.

[00:05:26]>> And that's carried over from blue laws that were based on the prohibition where essentially it's it's there number one for religious observance and along with kind of carrying that old old idea of temperance along with drunkenness being a bad thing, which is a moral claim.

[00:05:47]Another thing that they also said when I was looking it up is that on holidays a lot of people drink and a lot of people drive. So, it's also a safety thing. But that I just thought that was interesting that here in Tennessee we actually are still living under some of those old moral laws.

[00:06:03]>> James, I got a question for you. What about anti-sodomy laws? Weren't there laws about that?

[00:06:09]>> Yeah. during Obama's administration um that administration was the one who pushed for gay marriage becoming legal and I think it was Oberfeld >> the decision by the Supreme Court that actually wrote that into law where a man and a man or a woman or a woman could get married under the law and it was recognized >> but anti-sodomy laws I mean even forget the marriage thing just just sodomizing a man was a violent crime that was punished >> yeah I think uh that got overturned actually once again very recently 2003 and it was Lawrence versus Texas where that finally um was erased but you could go to jail for being gay >> for committing sodomy.

[00:06:55]>> That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And and I Wow.

[00:06:58]Till recently >> once again moral claim. So, James, the big question is, should those things be enforced by the government that if you're seducing a woman that you're going to be punished, if you commit sodomy or if you commit adultery that you're going to go to jail.

[00:07:15]>> Well, I think what you're saying is a criticism that a lot of people say, "Don't bring your religion into my politics, >> right? Don't your religion doesn't affect me. So don't bring your Christian virtues, your Christian morality, and put that into law because I'm not a Christian. And it's a bad claim because every single law that we have is based on a moral premise. It's based on something that has to do with morality.

[00:07:43]For instance, murder. We have laws against murder because we believe that it is morally wrong for one person to go and intentionally take the life of somebody else.

[00:07:55]>> That's right.

[00:07:55]>> We have laws against theft. It is wrong for one person morally to go and steal someone else's property and take it from themselves if they don't pay for that.

[00:08:06]And there's not a contract or a negotiation involved.

[00:08:09]>> All of that makes total sense. And when we stop and think about it, it's because there is a moral code that's being violated.

[00:08:16]>> I think that the real question isn't should morality be in law because morality already is in law. And the question we should actually be asking is whose morality and how far should that go?

[00:08:29]>> Yeah, that's right. That's right. Should your morality dictate the laws that apply to me? Well, why yours? Uh why why not why not my laws? Why are not the things and and my values? Why can't those things be the law? Um and if somebody else makes the law based on their values, where does that leave my freedom?

[00:08:50]>> Yeah.

[00:08:50]>> Am I free to be me and do my thing or do I have to always do your thing? I mean, James, think of any law. Can you think of any law that's not based on some someone's morality? Let's just go with one that seems to be like pretty benign.

[00:09:03]Like you it's against the law to run a red light when you're driving. There's a law against that. you you'll actually get a ticket.

[00:09:10]>> Yeah, I would say >> why is that?

[00:09:12]>> I think the the moral statement behind that would be that if you run a red light, you could get in a car accident and if you get in a car accident, you could take someone's life or injure them. And injuring someone or taking a life is a bad thing. And so we're going to prevent that thing from happening.

[00:09:29]That comes with a premise believing that that's a bad thing. That someone else dying even on accident is a bad thing.

[00:09:34]>> That's right. And animals don't have those kinds of laws. like, "Hey, if you go take the life of another animal, you're going to get in trouble and we're going to throw you into jail. All the other lions are going to going to punish you for eating that zebra over there."

[00:09:46]No, they don't have those kinds of moralities. They they they have a different law of the jungle. It's basically eat or be eaten, kill or be killed. It's survival of the fittest, which is interesting. That's sort of the evolutionary premise that uh if we actually embraced, nobody would want to live in this world.

[00:10:02]>> Yeah. And when I was thinking about this topic, I was sitting on my couch and trying to wrestle through what are our options? What are our options on laws?

[00:10:11]Who gives the laws? Whose morality are we going off of? Number one is you have a governmentbased morality and government that enforces all of the laws based upon what they believe is right.

[00:10:24]>> Yeah.

[00:10:25]>> And I think we have other words for a government-based morality, which is monarchy.

[00:10:32]One of them is monarchy where you have a king who just says, "I'm the king. I believe this is right. You all do what I say."

[00:10:39]>> Yep.

[00:10:39]>> Or you have a dictator >> and there's like history is fraught with so many dictators.

[00:10:45]>> Yep.

[00:10:46]>> And we even have dictators nowadays that are >> controlling countries around the world.

[00:10:50]Y >> a couple examples of those are Mao Dong, you have Pulpot, you have Adolf Hitler, and you have Kim Jong-un. Kim Jong-un is still here today. And I think we can see how that goes. Throughout history, when you have consolidated absolute power, 99.9% of the time is going to corrupt absolutely. And the atrocities that have happened under dictatorships.

[00:11:17]The evils, the pain of the populations is insane. And I don't think anybody wants to live under a dictatorship. You can make the argument that you can have a good king, but I think in general we know that when people have an immense amount of power, most of the time that's going to corrupt what they do and they will actually use that power to take advantage of weaker people for their own personal gain. So I think most everybody would agree monarchies, dictatorships are a bad thing. it's not a good idea and it never really leads to anything good except for the person in power. And so I was thinking of the next one. I was like, okay, let's have a society that is based upon the popular vote. So like the people make the choices. Let's have it just the society itself is the one who decides what's right and wrong. And I think again with that you have an issue which is if the majority of people want something they have to have someone to enforce what they want >> which essentially is a government and you're still handing the power over to a small group of people that are enforcing what the populace wants. Yeah.

[00:12:36]>> This is the idea of socialism, right?

[00:12:40]democratic socialism. We as the people elect a representative and that representative has the power and distributes the wealth >> to to the masses.

[00:12:51]>> And we can see throughout history how that's gone. Joseph Stalin was a socialist. Vladimir Lenon was a socialist. Fidel Castro was a socialist.

[00:13:01]When we think of all those people, we don't think of socialists. We think of communists.

[00:13:06]>> We think of dictators. We think of people who committed genocides in their countries, but they were all operating under the same system of socialism, social equality. Yeah. That's why people say that socialism is just baby communism. Socialism is is like a teenager that wants to grow up and become adult communism. And that's really what it is is the difference is that communism straight up says, "I'm in charge. I'm the dude. I'm in charge." Or us, this big group is in charge.

[00:13:38]Socialism says, "No, the people are in charge, but they've put us in place to implement their wishes. It's not our wishes, it's their wishes, and that's what we're doing." Problem is, once you give them the money and the guns, they can control the people and do what they want. So, it's essentially just um veiled communism, and we like to call it socialism.

[00:13:59]>> Yeah. And it's an interesting thing. If you look at all of the countries in the world and all societies that have tried to implement socialism, it works on a very very very small >> scale when it comes to like a village or maybe like a neighborhood. But as when that idea grows, so does the chance of it turning into communism. And if you look at all the countries that are socialist, >> they're either bankrupt or they're extraordinarily corrupt. and it has turned from a government for the people to a government that controls the people. So if we deduce that socialism or a monarchy is not a great way for us to make our laws, what other options do we have? I say option three is individual morality.

[00:14:46]>> So essentially what is right for me is right for me. You can't say it's wrong, but I also can't say if you disagree with me that you're wrong. Essentially what that turns into is anarchy, right?

[00:14:56]It's it's the idea of all of the purge movies. So there's one so there's a government and there's laws and all of that, but for one day of the year, everybody can do exactly what they want and there's not really a moral argument that you can make against it. And they purge all of their desires on this day.

[00:15:11]>> You can't there's no laws to break on that day.

[00:15:13]>> Yeah. And so during the purge, there's a bunch of murder, there's a bunch of theft, there's a bunch of buildings and destruction and pain that happens during this day. And I think a really good example of individual morality is actually what happened in Haiti. Haiti used to be one of the biggest slaving colonies in the world and it was controlled by the French and it was also one of the most profitable in the entire world at that time. And in 1806, there was a revolution that took place where the Haitian slaves or the slaves that were on the island of Haiti, they took over the government. They killed the French. They pushed them off the land and they actually revolted and were in full control of Haiti. And because they didn't have an actual government that they were able to institute, it turned into anarchy and it turned into chaos. And even up until this day in 2021, they had their president assassinated. And there is no legitimate government there and is one of the hot spots on the entire world for violent crime. It's controlled. I think I read a statistic that said 80 to 90% of Haiti is controlled by gangs, >> not even the government.

[00:16:43]>> And it just turned into survival of the fittest. What is right for me is for me what I want I will take.

[00:16:49]>> Yeah. It's it's it's essentially like it's the purge every day. Yeah.

[00:16:52]>> In Haiti, >> except for whatever kind of laws they can they can enforce, but it's not much.

[00:16:58]And based on an individual morality claim, you cannot say that anything is wrong.

[00:17:05]>> That's right. That's exactly right.

[00:17:07]>> Right. If I if I want to do the most evil thing imaginable, you cannot say to me that is wrong because to me it's right. Right. There's nothing wrong with what Hitler did if that's what Hitler believed was right. And nobody wants to live in a society that believes in individual morality.

[00:17:26]>> That's right. We say that we want to live and let live. Let everybody have their own morality. Your truth is your truth. My morality is my morality, right? And don't push it on each other.

[00:17:37]But the Bible speaks about the kind of chaos and anarchy that you talked about that nobody wants to live in when every man does what's right in his own eyes.

[00:17:45]No bueno. Well, James, if we can't go with a dictator like Mao to make our laws based on his morality, and we can't go with socialism because all the people ultimately, well, they could all decide to have a a really bad set of values like slavery. We don't want that. And they've got to rely on some powerful form of government anyway to implement their morality. And we don't want to go with anarchy, with individual morality.

[00:18:10]What where does that leave us? But first, I want to talk to you about red truckmen. Have you ever wished that there was just a place you could go to be with other men of honor who want to create a culture that promotes families that honors God that actually helps you to drop into your purpose here on earth?

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[00:19:31]So, James, what other option is there?

[00:19:33]That's the question that I had also which it looked like to me if you have people involved it's just going to get corrupt. If you give power to certain people or just people in general they're going to take advantage of that and they're going to essentially >> take advantage of other people as well.

[00:19:51]>> Yeah.

[00:19:52]>> And as I thought I said there has to be something that is transcendent over people's morality. what I think in my faulty mind or what I feel in my faulty heart. I have there has to be something we can follow that is always true that is always right and is always designed to benefit people.

[00:20:14]>> Yeah. A king who's not corruptible. A king who will never take a bribe. A king who's not looking to serve himself but maybe even will sacrifice himself for the good of his people. Where do you find a king like that? We find them in Jesus. That's right. This is the idea that actually was implemented when they founded America. It's the idea and belief system of what we say in our pledge of allegiance as Americans. We say we are one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

[00:20:52]They knew that we have to have God that we are under. Not the government, not our communities, not morality of the guy next to you or the guy who's sitting on the stage. They said, "No, it has to be under the morality of God and based upon the morality of the one who is always good and always true and always here to benefit the people."

[00:21:17]>> Yeah. to benefit our lives, to transform our wickedness into goodness. And we can follow that, but we can't follow each other. And I think that a lot of Christians are actually scared to talk about this topic, to talk about Christian morality being implemented in law because the word Christian nationalism has been so demonized in the media and by the left. And I think we need to have an understanding and it's actually going to equip you if you have an understanding that all law is based on morality. The question is whose morality are we choosing? Yeah.

[00:22:01]>> If you frame the question that way then you can actually have a intellectually honest conversation on whose morality is best, who do we go with? Yeah, >> I think that the case for a morality that is based upon the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of the Bible is the morality that leads to the most amount of flourishing among people.

[00:22:27]>> Absolutely 100% >> 100%. But at least you can get there.

[00:22:30]But if somebody says, "Don't bring your Christianity into politics," right?

[00:22:35]Freedom of religion or freedom of speech.

[00:22:38]>> Yeah. Separation of church and state, >> they're making a moral claim in that saying that that's what they value above what you value.

[00:22:44]>> That's right.

[00:22:45]>> And that's that's not a good argument.

[00:22:47]So don't allow them to pull that card on you.

[00:22:50]>> That's right. Because they're essentially making the same religious claim that they're accusing you of making. Don't bring your religion and your religious morality into this world with your laws. It's like, okay, well, if you want me to do that, well, why do you get to do it? You get to bring your secular humanist or your communist or your socialist value system and you want to turn that into a law that you want to slap on me as a Christian. So, what you said is right. It's not about uh whether or not somebody's morality should be the basis for the laws. It's just whose morality are we going to pick? And what we say is I think the person with the best values with the purest heart is the most good being in the universe and that is God. And he gave us laws right here.

[00:23:36]>> Yeah. I would rather trust someone who is perfect, who never is unfair.

[00:23:43]>> That's right.

[00:23:43]>> Who never is cruel for no reason. Who never tries to take advantage of an innocent person. I would rather trust in that and have our laws laws reflect that and protect that and defend that rather than trust somebody who acts different or feels something different because they haven't had coffee that day.

[00:24:04]>> Yeah. Or they got a bribe from another country. Exactly. And because they're getting paid off. James, what you're saying though kind of sounds to some people like you're promoting um you know, Christian laws. That sounds like you wanted to be a Christian nation and that kind of sounds like a theocracy.

[00:24:20]How far do you take the moral values of Christianity, turn them into laws and apply them to everybody in a country?

[00:24:29]>> Yeah. I mean, because where we're running into is the idea of if you have a essentially you can turn this into a Christian monarchy, right? Like a theocracy.

[00:24:41]>> Yeah. Right. that that is a religiousbased system that also is almost like a dictatorship. It's like you can't do this and you can't do that.

[00:24:50]So, how does freedom also mix into this?

[00:24:53]And how does free will play into this?

[00:24:55]Yeah.

[00:24:56]>> At the end of the day, >> I don't have all of the answers. I don't think anybody has all of the answers.

[00:25:02]And I think this is the exact problem that the founding fathers came to in America where they knew that there was no perfect system. But what they did is they made a system that was governed by the moral principles of God. And they tried their best to make the power not localized in one small group of people, but they added checks and balances into our system. I think if you went back and you talked to Thomas Jefferson or Samuel Adams and you said, "Is this the perfect system? Is this an incorruptible system?" They would say, "Absolutely not." No, there is no incorruptible system when there's people involved. I think our laws should protect what is good, punish what is bad, and promote what is true.

[00:25:49]>> At the end of the day, it's not going to be perfect. And there's a lot of issues that I don't think that you should go to jail for if you have a disagreement or you live different different lifestyles.

[00:26:00]>> But I do think that when it comes to core foundational principles of life, liberty, and property that those things should not be dictated by what you think I should have, what property I you think I should have, or >> if I should have life or not, or if I should be free and have liberty or not.

[00:26:19]I think that has to come from a transcendent morality and I want ours and I'm happy that it is based upon the laws of God. So this whole idea of pluralism and live and let live everybody just you do what feels right to you. It may sound really loving and generous. It may sound very enlightened but it's not. This is going to go back to your example of Haiti. It goes back to the pagan ways of every man doing what's right in his own eyes. leads to the people ending up demanding a king who will bring in law and order but then the king becomes corrupt and then they overthrow the king and it goes back to tribalism again and it's just this cycle. So really the only perfect government that is going to implement the perfect laws that are really going to protect what is good and punish the bad and promote flourishing is the government of the kingdom of God in Christ and that is fully expressed in heaven. And there will always be problems wherever there are people. And so we're doing our very best right now.

[00:27:22]And um I I'd love to just uh reiterate what you said today with this quote from that's been attributed to Alexis Dtoqueville. He was a French um historian. He was a political scientist, a journalist. And he said, "I sought for the secret of America's success.

[00:27:40]I thought I would find it in her ample rivers and in her harbors uh where so much business was taking place for their economy and it was not there. I thought I would find it in her boundless prairies in her fertile farmlands. I thought I would find it in those deep mines in uh her vast world commerce and in the halls of Congress in her constitution or democracy itself and it was not there. He said, "I examine everything, but it wasn't until I went into the churches of America that I discovered the secret to her genius and to her power. America is great because she is good," he said. And if America ever ceases to be good, speaking of morality, she will cease to be great.

[00:28:27]There it is.

[00:28:28]The only way for us to be good is to have our hearts transformed by the spirit of God and the belief in the gospel which makes us new creations. And then from the heart, people can govern themselves.

[00:28:45]And we don't need tyrants. We don't need socialist governments. and anarchy won't be a thing because people are doing what's right voluntarily because they love God and because they love their neighbor. That's the perfect system and that's what we're striving for. Well, thank you guys for watching. Make sure to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell so you're notified when the next episode comes out. And leave us your questions if you have any from this episode in the comment section below and we'll try our best to read those on a future Monday episode. Have a good day.