The Most Tragic Middle-earth Childhood : Children of Húrin #2

追加: 2026-05-27

[00:00:00]Before the rings of power, there were the Sumemerils. Before Sauron, there was his master Morgoth. Before Aragorn and Arwin, there was Baron and Lucian. Join us as we explore Tolken and all the ages of Middle Earth with your hosts from the one ring.com, Jonathan Watson, and Michael Grumbine.

[00:00:24]>> Dude, it is a big week. Big week. Well, no, I take it back. The past week was a big week. In fact, today was a big day.

[00:00:34]>> Okay. I mean, I agree with you on some of those things, but on a more personal note, because my daughter graduated from college this week, so >> Oh, wow.

[00:00:41]>> We were We were We were out in Wyoming for that.

[00:00:43]>> So, did you drive? Did you drive?

[00:00:46]>> Yes, we drove.

[00:00:46]>> Oh, what the heck? No way.

[00:00:48]>> Yeah. One day there, one day back, 17 hours in the car. It's awesome. Not 16 hours in the car. It's not awesome.

[00:00:55]>> Very diplomatic world word.

[00:00:57]>> Uhhuh.

[00:00:58]>> Yeah. Yikes. Living I'm living the dream, man. I'm living the dream.

[00:01:01]>> Wow. Well, that's not at all what I was thinking about when I said it's awesome.

[00:01:05]You know why it's awesome? Because I got an email today uh that I've been waiting for for a long time, which is which which told me that the Exploring Tolken app was approved for the Apple App Store.

[00:01:16]>> Yes. Our AI overlords love us. That's awesome.

[00:01:19]>> Yeah. Yeah. It was actually it was so annoying. So, I hunkered down earlier this week and so it's what? Today is Friday, the 22nd of May. Um, and and so by the time this comes out, I'll have released it. You'll be able to download it and we're going to actually look at it here in a second, too. Uh, but it was it was annoying because there are all these little rules in there and I had no idea what all these little rules were and researching it. You don't know like they change rules all the time about like the things you can do and can't do and everything like that. One of the things I learned sadly is that when you when you integrate Patreon into your app and you have uh a login to it, there are all these little rules that go around it that you have to implement for their to because it's considered a social network. So, I was just like, forget it. I'm not going to do Patreon integration. So, we don't have very many Patreon subscribers. Most of you all use the website because it's it's cheaper and easier. I don't know if it's easier, but it's cheaper at least. And u and so if you have Patreon, I'm sorry. I'm I can't I'm not going to take the the the days that it's going to take me to figure out like what I have to do in order to make Patreon work on here. So, uh if you're a Patreon subscriber, email me, Jonathan.com, and I'll see what I can do to get you the app and to get you the login for the app on there, too.

[00:02:27]But, um it'll just be through through it'll just have you create a a user on the website. In any case, here, check this out. Look. Bam. There you go. There is uh well, there there's the app right there. Um, >> I like I like our silhouette that we went with.

[00:02:44]>> Yeah, I'm glad you when you when you posed for that. That was pretty amazing.

[00:02:47]>> Yeah, that's what I look like is a I look like a massive hobbit these days.

[00:02:52]>> Exactly. So, check it out. All you have to do is download Exploring Tolki and you actually get the app. Now, what's the idea of the app? The idea of the app is number one, it's a podcast player.

[00:03:01]You can play all of our episodes, every single one, all the way back to 2022.

[00:03:06]Um, whether you're a member or whether you're a uh just a regular user, you can listen to every single podcast. And what's really cool is it tracks every single one you've listened to. Um, and it works as a background. Imagine it's just a regular pod podcast player. So, if I click play this episode right here, right, you got the little player right down there at the bottom.

[00:03:27]>> Um, and then when you click on it, you get this here. You can skip forward 30 seconds, 15 seconds. These are settings you can change in the settings part of the app. You can set a sleep timer on it if you want to. Um, you can increase the playback speed. Uh, you can uh share it.

[00:03:43]This isn't going to work because it's a simulator on my Mac right now, but uh you can share it to like podcast. You can connect it like, you know, different Bluetooth stuff just like your Apple stuff does. So anyway, and then once you've once you finish listening to it, let's say you get to the end and then you go down, it will actually tell you, look, you listen to it right there. Now, here's the other cool thing. Not only is it like, okay, your latest episode, great. I get a list of all the episodes.

[00:04:04]No, no, no. You also get, if you go to the episodes tab, you get all the recent episodes. You get you can click on video and you'll get them also. You can just click on this and watch them on YouTube.

[00:04:15]You also get them by series. So, if you want to listen to easily listen to all 38 episodes of the Sylmerelion, all you got to do is go to episodes the >> See, that's very cool. I'm gonna use that feature >> and listen to it and then it'll track with every single one you've listened to and all you got to do is go through at your own pace.

[00:04:33]>> I'm totally not going to use that feature because I don't listen to myself online. I actually don't. I I used to I used to listen to episodes that we had done just to say see how annoying I sounded. So like what can I do that's less annoying next time? But I gave up on that.

[00:04:48]>> No. No. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. This this will disabuse you of the notion that you'll get any better. Just keep listening. Actually, if you listen to the early episodes, you'll real realize uh how much practice we've had and how much we've improved in this whole situation of podcasting.

[00:05:00]>> Oh, is that right?

[00:05:00]>> Here's the other cool thing you've got.

[00:05:02]So, if you're a member, um if you're not a member, you can now simply become a member. It uses Apple subscriptions. Doesn't take anything else from you. It's just a month-to-month. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to like, oh no, I'm going to have to pay for a full year in advance. It's $4.99 a month.

[00:05:18]>> Um and when you subscribe, you get more than just the extended podcast because that's the primary thing. You can get the extended podcast which is about 20 minutes longer than a normal podcast. If you click subscribe um you can see now that there we go. You can see now um that there are a bunch of other options here.

[00:05:37]For instance, I have an alliance I can pick. Now this alliance is a little flag that shows up there. This is sort of like the intro to stuff, but you have everything from houses like the house of Bayor and House of Hador, which of course we'll be talking about today, or the house of Halith or Eland or Galadriel or Gondor or whatever. So, you can pick what you want. Feyenor, you can do that. Um, this is a test. So, I'm going to give myself another name. I'm going to say I am um uh Oridreth.

[00:06:04]That's my name on here.

[00:06:06]So, now it changes your name. Um, and you're you see this whole thing like middle-ear portrait. Well, what is this?

[00:06:11]Well, here's the other cool thing. You can actually upload an image of yourself or take a picture and you can say, you know what, make me as a dwarf. We'll see how this turns out. And this is something I'm still working on. This uses AI to do all this. Here, here's my my cool picture right here. Um, we'll go ahead and do that. Um, and this uses AI to generate an image. It takes about 20 seconds or so um to create a picture of yourself in that style. Now, uh you can't prompt it because once you do, there are a bunch of legal ways that come into uh Apple the App Store in order to like do that. But there you go.

[00:06:50]Is a dwarf. That's That's pretty unique.

[00:06:52]>> Um >> that's great.

[00:06:54]>> So, but then you have Right. Okay, cool.

[00:06:56]Now I can set it as a portrait. Boom.

[00:06:59]Okay, so now that's my portrait. Now you see it in the upper left everywhere.

[00:07:01]We're going to do more with this in the future. Remember, this is just version one. I've only working on this for a few months. Um, and then you have a whole gallery. So, you can see, oh, look, I generated one earlier for me as a ranger.

[00:07:11]>> Really threw in the highlights there.

[00:07:12]This is, you know, and we're going to improve this here, this AI generation stuff. Um, spend some more time figuring out better ways of doing it. But it's just sort of a fun little aside. And you can save it to your photos and everything like that. Um, and use it wherever you want and share it. Um, uh, it tracks you every listen, gives you ranks. So, if you listen more, you'll eventually rank up to the highest possible level once. I think it's like 150 episodes. Um, and I know some of you are going to say like, "But I already listened to them all." Here's a little trick. Like, if you click play on an episode and you drag it all the way to the end, you've you finished listening to it. So, you know, if you really want to game the system, yes, I mean, you can just go to every single podcast and drag the slider all the way to the end of the podcast and say, "I listen to it." then you can brag to to all the four people that care about how many episodes you listen to >> and not only that now okay so that's all about the podcast that's a primary features and about the you and getting some special things like that now here's some other things that we have um we have today in Tolken now today there's no real events happening in Tolken's world today but it is a calendar that has all the events through all the years and we're going to improve this too it doesn't have every single possible thing I'd love to do some of the first age events I haven't gotten to that yet but now that the app is approved >> right just adding content is there. But if you can go through it, you can say like, "Oh, what happened on the 6th of April?" Like, "Oh, look, Sam Wise was born today." And, "Oh, look, Phamir and Aayowin. They uh they were healing in the houses in the houses of healing in Minist Mirkwood today on April 6th."

[00:08:40]>> Oh, wow.

[00:08:40]>> And it tells you the in which year, third age, 319. Um, this one isn't right here. One of these is not Oh, no. No.

[00:08:47]Kelbourne, Thanduel did meet. Yeah.

[00:08:48]Yeah. Sorry. I was thinking that was the Hobbit. Yeah. So, like you can see every single event. So there's it's we call it today in Tolkien. You have a daily piece of art which you can see it right here and then you can click on it and then you can zoom on it if you want to and kind of like scroll around and see like the nice quality of it. A nice one by Ted Nith.

[00:09:04]>> Where did you where do you pull from the art?

[00:09:07]>> Uh I have my own whole repository.

[00:09:10]>> Nice.

[00:09:10]>> Yep. Um and then news. So you can see all the news that's fit to print >> right now. It's pulling from the website which is >> and some of and some of it that's probably not fit to print. if it's about rings of power.

[00:09:22]>> So, yeah. Yeah. Fit to laugh at maybe.

[00:09:26]Um, but yeah, you can go in here and you can read all the news. It will, if you want it to, if you're just under settings, it will send you alerts. It will send you uh messages say like there's a new piece of news, there's a new podcast episode, here's what happened today in Tolken. Um, you get all that sort of stuff. So, it is a true real um working app.

[00:09:43]>> Uh oh, and lastly, once you are a member, you will see this here like, oh, there's a live member chat. Yes, that's right. you will get an alert for our live chat here. You never have to worry about if you're going to miss an email, you never have to worry about if if it's like put it on your calendar because all you have to do is click save and it'll be added to your calendar, whatever calendar uh system you use on your phone. Um, and then when it's live, I think it's uh 10 minutes or five or 10 minutes before it's live, you'll get a link right here that's just to a Zoom room. So, you just click on it and you open up Zoom if it's on your phone or uh you can copy the link or look at your calendar and just copy that and go into a computer or whatever and access it there. So there's no need to worry about like whether you have the right link or anything like that. Um so yeah, so the big things are like the extended podcast is super easy to get the um you get the uh the middleear portrait. Um you'll get uh the tracking of all your which episodes you listen to if you want to listen to all of them. And then also the uh monthly zoom chat that we do is just right here.

[00:10:40]Um and >> you have put a lot of work into this, sir. Well done. It was. But I'm super excited because this has been something I've wanted to do for almost a year now.

[00:10:47]And we finally finally got it done. Uh, and in case any of you guys are wondering, no, I didn't hire anybody to do this. I built this. This was this is part of my like my day job is is doing things like this here, mostly with web stuff, but I uh I've done a little bit of iOS programming before, but I was able to sort of supercharge myself by um using some tools out there already and building something that is works great.

[00:11:08]I love it. It's a lot of fun to use, and so I'm hoping you guys really enjoy it, too. Um, and if any of you are like, well, why are you charging? How dare you charge for using this app. I'm not charging you to use the app. You get everything that you've always gotten.

[00:11:21]There is nothing that you're missing out on by uh by using the app without becoming a member. What all you're missing out on is really extended podcast and the Zoom chats. Like that's primarily it. I do have some other plans for this year um in the future, including some trivia. I'd like to do some uh some notes. So, if we have podcast notes or like some some things um um like that, I'd like to do some interactive stuff like Froto's journey, things like that. Um I'd like to do chat rooms within the app here, which would also be available online through a browser, but uh so that you don't have to like for those of you who are like Discord, I don't want to load up Discord and go through and find all this sort of stuff and have just a nice place where you can talk with other people and then have rooms for episodes and things like that. So, I've got plans now that it's approved. It's a whole lot easier to do it. Um and I'm hoping you guys um you can download it. Uh just um let's see.

[00:12:09]If you go to the onewing.comapp um you'll be routed directly to the app store uh in your browser. Um and maybe if I figured out I can put a a QR code here on the screen. But in any case, if you just look up exploring Tolken in the Apple App Store, you'll find it. There's not there's going to be nothing else that's called that. And uh yeah, so that was a big deal. I'm so glad it's done, guys. Thanks for uh thanks for thanks for I know that you guys were were wondering like when is it finally going to be released. Well, now >> yeah, that's awesome. Well done.

[00:12:41]>> Thank you. Okay. Um I guess I don't have to do the whole thing like go become a member because all I'm going to say now is like go get the app. It makes it so much easier to uh to to get everything uh from the app store uh or from from the that we offer for you. And it'll be a great way to communicate with y'all.

[00:12:58]Um if you do have any problems with it, email me jonathanthe.com and I'll I'll see if there are any issues with it. Oh, and somebody some I can't remember who it was. Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. I forgot your name. Who's in our chats was always wondering like when are you going to fix the problem that when you um when you become a member uh and the membership feed does not have the old episodes from the podcast.

[00:13:21]Well, meaning like if the the pre-membership podcast from before like before our membership launched like eight months after we started the podcast or seven months or something like that. Now, if you load up the app, all the podcasts whether you're a member or not, every single podcast will be in there. you'll be able to like go through and see. So the Sylmerelion episodes for instance that were not membersonly but were in the members only feed. Anyway, all the podcasts will be there. It's um it was yeah just a little trickery on the coding side that I had to do to make it work. So all that said is we're kind of launching the podcast with the with or the app with the first chapter of the children of Hurin.

[00:13:57]And I'm going to ask one thing. I'm going to try and remember this here because I listen to the podcast on Denver say this is like, "Hey guys, if you enjoyed the podcast, give us a review. We'd love wherever you go, give us a fivestar review. It helps other people find it. We really love doing this here. Um, we both need more cigars in in order to read this better because this is a foundational book and so if you can uh you can get more people listening, it will give us the impetus to do even more. So, we we'd love your uh your feedback. Uh, but make sure it's five stars because, you know, I mean, why would you do anything else? Just doesn't doesn't matter. It doesn't make sense.

[00:14:30]>> If you got this far in the episode and it's not five stars, then you're asleep.

[00:14:35]>> Totally. Exactly. All right. So, um let's get started on the children porn, but um I'm going to do one other thing, Michael, that um that we're going to do in uh it'll probably start more in chapter three of the children of Hurin. And that is we're going to be let me get this right here.

[00:15:01]>> We're going to be tracking some things as this book goes on. We're going to be tracking two things. What are Turin's titles? And what is Turin's toll? Which means how many people is he indirectly or which people who have proper names is he indirectly or directly responsible for their death? Because uh I have a feeling he has there there are more deaths around him than there are titles for him. but he's got quite a few. Um, so we're just gonna keep track of this every week as we go. We're gonna we're gonna in here. So, let's see. We we do have one title for Turin so far, and that literally is the name Turin. So, um, >> yeah. Well, it is interesting because that is that it's a it's we're we're tracking how well Tolken is adhering to the very first, um, iteration of this kind of tale that we that we covered before. Um, yeah, back to the Icelandic roots and seeing if seeing if he how uh how true he is.

[00:15:57]Sorry, I'm also um >> I have to admit I was testing out your avatar creation. It was pretty funny.

[00:16:05]>> All right, I'm done now.

[00:16:06]>> That's right. You have a you had a beta testing app. I know. Yes. So, okay, good. Um Oh, and if you're already a member, by the way, you don't have to This I didn't say this. This was dumb.

[00:16:15]Uh you don't have to pay the $4.99 a month. You can actually just log in with the same password, username, password.

[00:16:20]You log in at the one.com. If you forgot your password there, just go to the one.com/login uh or slash. It's a link in the upper upper right. It says my account or something like that. And if you forgot your password, just click reset password. Reset your username password.

[00:16:32]Then go to the app and just click login.

[00:16:34]Um um or login now instead of buy the account. Login now, I think. Let me see.

[00:16:39]What does it say? I I'll get it right for you guys. Hang on. This is uh this is the I didn't ask all the beta testers. Um, yeah, it's uh it just says sign into your account. So, when you click that at the the bottom of the become a member page or anywhere where it says sign in now, um just click sign into your account. Use your email and password from the one.com and you'll sign in.

[00:17:01]You'll get all the same stuff without having to switch and pay more. So, there we go. Okay. So, we're going to do tours titles, tours tolls. But first, um let's make sure I get rid of that. Let's make sure that we do what we did with the Hobbit, which is uh let's review sort of what happens in this first chapter. So, if you haven't read this first chapter, uh you're going to want to go ahead and do that because um otherwise we're going to spoil everything.

[00:17:28]>> That's right. Right here.

[00:17:28]>> Pause it, go read, come back.

[00:17:32]>> Okay. So, I'm going to try There's a lot that goes on in this chapter. It's sort of like setting up everything kind of chapter. Um right, but I'm I'm going to give you give you the perspective.

[00:17:41]Hopefully I don't miss anything. Okay, so the first thing we talk about is kind of the family and lineage of Hurin of Turin. Um, and that comes starts with Hador Golden Head, who was the lord of Dol Dorlom, one of the great houses of men, the house of Hador, uh, under King Fingin, right? His son Galdor married.

[00:18:00]Uh, and they had two kids, two sons, Hurin and Hu. Uh, Hurin is the dwarf and Hu is the elf in the family, so to speak, right? Hurin was shorter with greater endurance and Hur was taller and swifter swifter.

[00:18:13]>> I love it.

[00:18:14]>> That's great.

[00:18:15]>> Um, Hurin then married Morwin Alwin. Uh, she was dark-haired. She was a noble woman of the house of Bayor and uh related was she her what was the exact relation to Baron? I can't remember now.

[00:18:30]Uh, I should have I should have remembered this here. Uh, >> she was gr grand niece.

[00:18:37]>> Yes. It's like he's like a great uncle or something like that. Any case, >> um yes, so she so Hurin married Morwin.

[00:18:44]They had two kids, Turin and um and Urwin, who is nicknamed Laith, which means laughter.

[00:18:55]Hu, can't say that too fast, married Rion, who is Mormon's cousin. uh uh and we won't going to get into them because they don't really come into the story whole a whole whole lot except for this character.

[00:19:09]So H and Hur as they were brothers um uh as they were as they were young brothers they were scouting near Brethl and they were ambushed by orcs but a mist sent by Umo helped them escape across got this this is hard the brethriak uh but they became lost in the mountains so Thor sent two eagles to bear them to Gondoland there King Turgon welcomed them and they lived there for about a year uh but they asked to return home because well we don't we we we burn out bright. We we don't live very long and I know you guys aren't used to that but we kind of want to see people before we die and we're stuck here the rest of our lives. So Turgon agreed uh but he bound them by oath never to reveal the city's location. The eagles carried them back to Dor Lumen um and they never uttered a well they for a super long time they didn't utter a word of it to anybody of exactly what happened but they kind of guessed that they were in Gondoland.

[00:20:01]Their families did because they were wouldn't say anything about where where they were at all. Okay.

[00:20:08]Right.

[00:20:09]>> Yeah. Because I came back dressed in elf clothes.

[00:20:11]>> That too. Yes. Right. Yeah.

[00:20:15]A little little tip of the hat.

[00:20:16]>> Where were you? Can't say. Can't.

[00:20:19]>> But I do look good, don't I?

[00:20:22]>> Took a took a vow. Sadly, they took a vow to a guy that uh shouldn't be u shouldn't be taking vows to, which is Mikelin.

[00:20:30]>> Yes. Oh, yeah. Right. Uh all right. So um once they returned uh they were they I mean they were woken back. They were back in their city. There was this thing then that happened a bit later called the evil breath. The evil breath which swept down from the north which pretty much is saying this is coming from Morgoth. Uh it brought pestilence and death to the northern land lands. Turin who was then five. So this was five years uh see by the way Turan was born the same year as uh Baron metian I believe which was kind of an interesting thing. Um he survived. They had a long fever. He survived. But Leth, who was three at the time, died. Um remember laughter. Not her real name. Leth or Urwin died. Uh Morwin grieved this like and became drawn in like she she was quiet. She was I don't know what the right word is for that. She she had she lost hope. She lost u her love.

[00:21:27]>> Toki describes her as stern. Three times.

[00:21:30]in this chapter and I you get this picture of a woman that's essentially just locks out the world out once it hurts her. So she's she hand she handles the her grief. It says basically with stoicism.

[00:21:44]He doesn't use the word stoicism but >> but I mean obviously yeah when when you lose your child right things happen. Uh Hurin broke his harp essentially and uh >> first it's a very odd reference.

[00:22:01]He was trying to compose um music lamentations for his sister who he loved dearly and and because he couldn't and in his grief it was just stiny him he he we we we see a we see a flash of a character that's going to repeat itself over the um over the chapters and he responds with rage and snaps his his harp and >> so yeah >> um so Uh let's see. So this is when Sador comes in the picture. Sador who's um a servant labidal who is called I think that means hoofoot. I think that's what he said >> right because he literally chopped his own foot off.

[00:22:44]>> It's like uh who is it Robert Frost's poem out where the kid like rips his arm off of a chainsaw. Same sort of thing except he didn't die.

[00:22:52]>> Yeah.

[00:22:53]>> So he Yeah. He he he was a soldier in the Dagor Bragal and um and then retired to to woodworking and he wasn't that great and uh and so he hit his foot one time and had to be amputated. So he's got he's an amputee and uh and it turns out Turin likes him um a lot and uh young Turin the the child and develops a friendship with him and um ends up doing things like giving him a dear a very dear present from his from Turin's father Hurin who gives him an elf blade dagger knife um it's an elf blade and Turin immediately goes off and gives it to >> to Sat something we can talk about let's talk about a little bit more before but yeah that's one of those those things that's really interesting to me about this the the whole idea of the knife which again >> there was a knife in in the story of Cerva which we went through two episodes ago >> um which was was now I'm starting to forget things are starting to conflate because I read this one so many times now but any case like you can see then the through line of from that to this here with this important important the importance of a knife um Sador I think was interesting we'll talk about this a little bit more but Sador was treated more kindly thereafter after Tin gave him the knife. That was an interesting like >> Yeah, Morwin has a lot of bad things to say like she's disparaging of him quite a bit. Uh Hin the father is actually um gives sort of is permissive of of Turin's friendship with him and and I think his tolerance probably softens the relationship with with uh Sador. But uh yeah, it's an interesting one because Satar ends up teaching Hurin lots like he's the one that tells Hurin about the fate of men versus the fate of elves or what basically they don't know what the fate of men is but but how men are different from elves >> span of their lives and you know it's it's interesting because Tolken at different points in this legendarium gives us like the view of elves and how they're seen by people and so this is a very interesting one where you have this mentor this this uh crippled mentor teaching Turin about who elves are because Turin's basically only seen elves once up to that point. And uh and even though they live on what used to be elf lands, it's very interesting because I always thought of it, you know, before I read this, I always thought of uh the the house of Hador um and and Bayor and Halith. I thought but especially Hador I thought of them as sort of intimately involved with the elves because they were on the elves land and Ving Gulfin gave him the land and so I thought I just thought of it culturally is of course everyone would be well acquainted with elves but it turns out the elves just don't live there like you know Turin grew up in this land and um he's only seen an elf once in his entire youth so >> right well let's talk about that um oh let's close out the um >> oh yeah >> let's close out the summary here which is uh the coming of war right the nearad which at the beginning of this war this was not called the near naro noiad yet which means >> they didn't know about the uncounted tears at that point >> but it's at this point that we kind of see what the relationship between Hurin and Morin has become because they talk privately about what what what should happen if things go poorly and we learn a lot about this is one of the things I want to bring up a little as we as we go through this in more detail but we learn a lot about their dispositions in this discussion that they have and how they react to it. Um, Hurin tells Morwin um to uh to not wait for him but to flee south maybe to Brethl where uh his mother's kin live, right? His mother was the house of Halith. So that's where they live in Brethl. uh Morwin considered Doryath instead uh because uh where she was citing her her bloodline from Bayor and the protection of Bellian's girdle um >> because remember Morwin the wife of Hurin is is from a land that has been destroyed uh from from >> Darthonian um Doronian um and which uh the house of Bayor was wrecked when in the uh dagor brag Um and so there was yeah there was a lot of >> yeah okay >> a lot of a lot of you know her basically her people are are their land is mostly wrecked mostly uninhabitable and occupied by the forces of darkness. So >> yeah so she has no home to go back back to it's not like she can go back to daddy >> right >> and and be happy. Yeah. Um, so, uh, he did reveal at this point that, uh, he wasn't Gondolind to her. I think he's he's the only person that he ever said that to, but even but he said, "I'm bound by oath." And even if you tried to pry it out of me, I wouldn't know. Like, I have no clue where Gondolind is. I was It was blinded. It was misty. It was The Eagles brought me. There's no way I would ever be able to tell you where it is.

[00:27:55]>> Right.

[00:27:56]Um and then um on a bright morning, trumpet sound. Hern's household is all assembled. Everybody's fully armed and u they all shout a battlecry and they're off behind a golden banner and uh the last thing they hear is a single distant horn over a uh over a hill fading over a hill. So So this is sort of the battle.

[00:28:21]So nothing really much with Turin yet other than that that longer interchange with Sador that we have. But let's start let's start with with um Galdor uh which is Hurin's father and the relationship of elves to men. Now, here's here's the idea, right? Here's here's what I realized thinking about this, and you kind of brought this up a little bit. Like the they had no idea they know nothing. Like Tor knows nothing about elves. Even though they live in Elvin land, they know nothing about them. And that's because the elves have an attitude of we don't really want anything to do with men in general. That's why the the idea that there is an elven relationship with men is so rare. Even that you'll see that even with T in here, um that they they don't respect men in a way. I don't know if respect is the right word. They don't value men uh as much as they value their own kin which maybe is fine but hurin and hur hur right one uh mo sets them apart so clearly there and there's a there is a there is a prophecy essentially come into play uh but hurin and hur are are essentially protected by mo then essentially tells ton to go get them why why do they get the special treatment what is it like is it just it's just the important men that they care out that everybody else is like, "Eh, whatever."

[00:29:40]Um, and Sador is the one that kind of points that out when he says um when he's explaining the differences between the two races and when they come together. He says, "And yet I think sometimes that it might have been better if we had never met them but had walked in lowlier ways. For already they are ancient in knowledge, and they are proud and enduring. In their light we are dimmed, or we burn with too quick a flame, and the weight of our doom lies the heavier on us." So, Bra, go ahead.

[00:30:07]Go ahead. I have a thought. You start.

[00:30:09]>> Well, I was going to say um what's interesting is if you contrast that with the the take of how elves appear or how elves interact with other races, other men and stuff from other works of fiction. It's very common to portray elves as arrogant and looking down on other people. And there might be a hint of that here, but really there isn't in the sense that it's just the the way that they are. They're ancient. Um um the it does he does call them proud, but pride you could have pride in a number of ways and not all of them are just like arrogance of of the type of I'm just better than you. They could just be proud of who they are. uh pride having pride in their people and they are distant like they in a sense like you said they're they they they keep themselves apart but it does but it isn't like they sit and they are you know mocking men or arrogant to men to their face or things like that. It's not that they put them down. It's just that they are who they are and in their light men seem dim and and they're and they don't um you know sort of sad or is opining that perhaps they would have been better and reached other heights if they had not if they were not always in the shadow of the elves. So, it's more it's more of the the fact that the elves are truly um a sort of a a higher race of beings and also the fact that there was, you know, Morwin points this out.

[00:31:38]Look, um they aren't it's said that they aren't allowed back in the into the lords of the west into Almond Valenor essentially.

[00:31:47]>> Um and so it's these Nolor aren't, you know, they aren't the perfect race in that regard. They do have a lot of um sort of pride in in other ways too. Not just pride in your own abilities or in in you know the good things of yourself but uh other kinds of pride as we know of course from the main tale of the summer somewhere else and uh and so so there are um there are hints that the elves are less than perfect but mostly it isn't but it isn't this sort of silly arrogance of a childish style that you know IPS like Dungeons and Dragons and other other um >> other intellectual properties try to portray else.

[00:32:28]>> It's more like they're indifferent >> maybe in a way. But here's here's what I also thought. Well, two things. One, there's a there's a bit of jealousy, I think, because um they don't know where they go, but they they get to they essentially, you know, Ovatar takes them in a way from from Middle Earth. They're not bound to the planet.

[00:32:46]>> Okay. And you do you see that kind of jealousy here?

[00:32:50]>> No, I'm just bringing it up. I don't not here, but I think that might be something else. The other thing is Toki makes the point that the problem with the elves really is their the they tried to preserve, right? The their goal in Middle Earth, they want to preserve what was there because they live so long. I don't know if if you want to call it like extreme nostalgia, but that's their goal. Like the point of the rings that they created was to preserve things essentially, not to make things better, not to make things grow, not to push us forward, not to not to find new ways. It was to preserve what was already there.

[00:33:22]And >> and don't forget also to rule um it says that explicitly about Gadriel and about the about some of the Nulor that they desire to they desire to have their own realms.

[00:33:33]which in a sense is preservation, right?

[00:33:35]You get to when you rule, you get to do what you will with it in order to >> Exactly. You can have stewardship and control and protect and make sure it doesn't change. But you're right, I think the biggest evidence is the three elven rings, >> right?

[00:33:47]>> And so they are unable to preserve men.

[00:33:51]Men, if they come into relationship with them, they they are they are gone and like they said, they burn out bright. Uh and so perhaps they would feel that loss more acutely or or do not understand it.

[00:34:02]And so you maybe I'm I'm being a little too, you know, psychological here, but but it's they are unable to do with men what they do with their own, which is to preserve them for long periods of time. And so these relationships would just come and go so quickly that what's the point of even doing it? Maybe I don't know if I'm psychoanalyzing it, but I feel like maybe that you could say that that that's a part of why the elves don't have these relationships with men because what's the point? they can't preserve that relationship which is very a very >> logical um I mean and it becomes the subject of the discussion between Eland and Arwin for example >> in Tolken's work alone as well not just in the movies >> and so so so uh it's it's a real thing that whole that discrepancy with with the way time affects both races >> you know only so close they can get >> is that with these uh read these uh relationships between elves and men. A lot of them come with strings attached, oaths, quests, like you know, Baron, go perform this quest for me. Uh here's the oath that you're now bound by. You're not allowed to say anything about it. Um there's always there's always feels a little bit like there's strings attached to it. Uh but yeah, the relationships are strained and uh but but Hurin and Hur they have some sort of goodwill because Ulmo sees them as valuable and necessary for some reason which we'll find out. Anyway, okay. Anything else you have to say about that? That was something that I wanted to bring up.

[00:35:35]>> Uh no, not about that specifically. um about the relationship between elves.

[00:35:39]It's it's super interesting that to me that the character that we hear most about is this you know, Turin and the I should say.

[00:35:49]>> We get decent amount of of uh of narrative from Morin and Hurin, but um we we we I feel like I know Mo I know best uh the guy with no no foot and and uh and I'm starting to know Turin. Um so it's super super interesting that that's that kind of character is becomes a focal point for Tolkien that he uses it in the narrative that way where you know this is his world is a world of paragonss all you know you have all these heroes of different types and people you know villains and heroes and but they're all very high and and yet just like with hobbits the the person that's the most grounded in this story so far is the low the low person, the the the cerepple, the one who's distinctly worse than everyone else, even as Morwin incessantly points out, how how he's not really worth it because he he screwed up and hurt himself with this.

[00:36:52]Um, so, so amidst all this sort of heraldic storytelling, I I thought it interesting that we have we we're given the most sort of in-depth personable look at this guy who's a and not very good at a lot of things. He's not a great hero. He's he's just this lowly um persona.

[00:37:12]>> So, so why why did why would Turin decide to So, so Hurin's for his 8th birthday, Hurin gave Turin the elf blade, right? a a very very very expensive special um important gift, right? That was he was marking something in his life with this gift, >> right?

[00:37:30]>> Why would Turin go right away and give it to Sador?

[00:37:36]>> What what is the impetus behind making that choice for someone that >> Well, I don't know any other other than Tolki is trying to tell us that there is a spirit of desire for friendship and generosity with Turin. like it's almost like he has he has this part of this side of him which is not the epic hero or even the epic tragic figure. it it's just a normal it's a desire for friendship and this is his one friend and and so because he remember he tries to steal things and give them to Sador originally or just take them when they're when people were not like specifically depriving people of them in that sense of stealing but just sort of objects um of some value he would give them to to Sedor and Sedor warns him off and says don't do it says says don't you're he said you know he he compliments Turin's generosity, but he says, "Look, you you need to give me things. If you want to get if you want to be generous, be generous, but only with your own stuff, not with other people's stuff." And and uh and Turin, so when Turin receives this very special gift, the first thing he does is goes and and gives it to Sador, which as you pointed out is an odd thing, but I I see Sador as a more of a real father figure than his his own father, who's gone almost all the time. And Tolken even even mentions that, >> right? He's the one who's working around the house, so to speak. Fixing the little things. What did he say? He's um he's making or mending things of little worth that were needed in the house.

[00:39:03]It's like he's the one that kept things running and so he was the one at home. I think you're 100% right. And and Tolkian says it was given in pity and not scorn.

[00:39:10]So I don't think it was only given in pity. Um but he wants to make the point like he didn't do this to scorn him at all to say look here you can take this now. You poor poor you poor man. But no pity in the sense like look you've done so much. You deserve so much. I pity that you don't have more. Um, >> but well also he had some skill in the working of wood. Maybe there's something there. I don't know because uh he does say if I can find a quote. No, >> no, never mind. Um, >> okay. So, well, I have one just to finish that thought. Um, it's talking about Sador and Turin's relationship and their time as they spent as they grew as as especially as Turin grew. In this way, Satar would speak to Turin as he grew older and Turin began to ask many questions that Satar found hard to answer, thinking that others nearer a kin should have had the teaching.

[00:40:00]>> So, what he's saying, what he's what Sat is noticing is that like why am I answering these deep questions from this kid? Um, shouldn't it be his parents?

[00:40:10]Well, clearly it's not. And the we're given the reason with his father which is his father's gone away basically fighting or preparing for battle um quite a bit. He tan doesn't see him at hardly at all and his mother seems very Morwin seems very um introverted and closed off and she doesn't seem she's not a great talker. She doesn't she doesn't she's a very stern woman and um doesn't answer a lot of questions. So clearly so that it falls instead to this house servant, this crippled house servant to be a father figure to Tor as I see it.

[00:40:44]>> Yeah.

[00:40:47]He's the only one that teaches Turin anything in the entire book. I feel like he's the one that sits him down and teaches something and and the value that he has for him is uh is is probably um it also it also gives Turin um a giving spirit which you wouldn't expect from the rest of the book. Yes, >> he takes a lot. So something happened to him that changed him from the one that he gives something of such great value to someone who truly doesn't deserve it.

[00:41:15]Um, and so maybe there is a surprise in in what happens to him and how he has changed from this here. And it all I mean it all honestly with the >> I think it's I think Tolki is trying to tell us that he wasn't all bad like in in a sense that there wasn't everything wasn't he wasn't a um >> a Hamletike figure all the time. Um but there's this real this real kind of childlike well even when he gives the knife and then the elf knife and uh then his parents notice and his his mother says do you then scorn your father's gift said Morwin and again Turin answered no but I love Sedor and I'm sorry for him and Turin Hurin said all three gifts were your own to give Turin love pity and the knife the least >> so so He's uh I I mean Hurin is there being a father um you know he's giving him a lesson and saying and at first approving of what he did but then saying because he gave things that were his own to give his love his pity as as Truan says I feel sorry for him and the knife um and the and uh Hurin is also making the point the knife valuable though it is is the least valuable of love and pity very right love and pity are two qualities that Tolken um emphasizes in his heroes and and wants wants them to be enduring qualities. Now, we will find out that pity and um love are not long they're not forever enduring and touring. Turin um will fall, but but um in different ways, but but this is something important to to Tolki and the basis for a lot of really uh strong relationships or at least important ones.

[00:43:04]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Sador is the only one who tells them about his father and grandfather too. At least in this story right here, he's the only one that says that. One of the things that stuck out to me about what he what he said uh about um Hurin. He writes um I saw your father take up his lordship. His being Galdor's Hurin's father's lordship and his command though but new come to manhood.

[00:43:26]There was a fire in him. And that's not the only time that fire is mentioned here about Hurin. Um, Togan also writes that uh, Hurin had a fire that burned in him steadily. Um, and I I I think that's not that's not an accident. I think the idea of fire being important, right?

[00:43:44]Servant of the secret fire, all this sort of stuff. I think but I don't think fire here is like an anger or a uh, a hottheadedness, an intensity. He's being headstrong. I think he means the fire is there is a there is an um, there's import to this man, right? He is he is here because he is going to shake the earth >> and um in a way of speaking or or or move move some things that haven't been moved yet and I and when Tolken uses the word fire to describe somebody I think that's more on the lines I mean Feyenor had a spirit of fire too um >> and so fire is a very important thing and he mentions that about Hurin doesn't mention that about anybody else so far in this book I don't I don't know if he will say that about Turin I don't remember offhand um but it's a word Tolken uses repeatedly about characters who Um, who are movers and shakers in Middle Earth?

[00:44:35]Um, >> right. Yeah, it does seem to be I mean movers and shakers both on on the side of light and darkness. I mean even Sauron is associated with fire and Morgoth is associated with fire and so um there's it's fire is very important the flame imperishable as you mentioned.

[00:44:54]Um yeah >> the you so anyway yeah it's a it's very interesting but but so what did you think about this chapter and I mean this chapter is essentially giving us the boyhood and giving us you know setting up the character of Turin and uh obviously you know surprisingly um especially through the lens of this crippled servant uh of his of his household but what did you think of the whole the way Tolken because he's setting us up and and Hin's going to go into this battle um which you know the name of the battle is the battle of uncounted tears so it's not going to end well um and so so we know that this is going to be a have a tragic you know the the elves and the men are not going to be successful against Morgoth in this next battle um and that's going to sort of set the background for everything else in Turin's life uh in a way what did you think of this opening where Tolken is explaining to us from boyhood and and giving us this friendship with this crippled family member um or at least a servant of the house um as a as a methodology um for telling us about uh Turin.

[00:46:07]>> Did you like it? Did you think it was done?

[00:46:09]>> It's hard. Yeah. No, I'm thinking it through because it's hard for me to remember. I have read this now so many times and I know so much about all these characters. If I if I were to read this without knowing much about the characters and about the history, it would be very hard. um because it is it is dense. So the just like the intro that we talked about last week there's he gives a lot of information tries to like um you know condense it down into an accessible enough intro.

[00:46:37]So I my focus is so much more than than like how I don't know how how I respond to it because I'm so interested in how they interact now and who they are um and where this will take them and things that that we'll talk about like >> like we we get to essentially know the the very foundational disposition of Hurin and Morin at the end of this chapter and there's some serious foreshadowing in some of the words that they have to say there too. Um so I'm not really sure how to answer that question. How what how what how did you respond to it? Like what was your response to this as >> it seems arththerian to me. So, so it's >> I don't have that history of of a degree to say it seems arththerian.

[00:47:11]>> Yeah. So, so you're you're you're you're learning about the youth and and you you're of a of a hero. So, soon to be tragic hero, but you're you're learning about his family. So first of all, family is always very important in heraldrich and and these these kinds of stories these these epic stories of with a medieval character which is Tolken's epics often have a very medieval character and um an ancient character too actually not just not just medieval um so you're learning about his household and so you you you have some exposure to the way they run their household even with this crippled servant who even though Morwin has some sharp for his ability. Um, I laughed out loud with her sar her sarcasm um explaining uh what what did she say she says?

[00:48:02]Uh I'll I'll put in a second but um uh basically you you it introduces us to the lady of the of the house which is Morwin. We we understand her character.

[00:48:16]um we we see how much um she and her son's character is driven by the death of their do of her daughter and his sister. Um so so so we are introduced to tragedy which is always an element in Arthurian legend and is like there's something tragic in your background that makes you a deeper person than someone who just had a happy childhood. Uh and so so you have the the relation of the house. You have the deeds of the father which is always very important for good or ill. In this case in this case good um hurin is not you know he he comports himself well. He's respected by the elves. He's he he's out protecting his people um usually but away from his son because of that. Um you have these epic events like the evil breath coming across the land. the hearkening back to the dagar bragalock. Um the you know the remembering of these old battles which is a huge part of heraldrich and nightly culture is is the retelling of of past battles and wars and then anticipating future wars. Then you have the element of prophecy that and and sort of hinting at the future that happens as you mentioned with Hurin and Morwin's um conversation where they're kind of guessing that there that this isn't going to end well. And so there's there's a kind of prophetic overlay over this where you kind of know things aren't going to go well. Um, nevertheless, there's the glorying and the you know, you have the the final scene of the last two paragraphs where you have this heraldrich scene where they're leaving in armor and flashing with flashing spears and a and a horns and a and a and a a call in a different language to uh to have the fires uh the sun come and the light come and the darkness recede essentially. Um and so very epic, very very heroic. Um so so he is in fact setting this he's giving us the tale of a childhood which has all of these epic elements and and you tragic elements too >> and and so it's a kind of it it is interesting to me because he is clearly in that tradition. Um but then he has these elements that aren't in that tradition like now the relation between elves and men that's never a part of the Arththerian. Well actually that's not true. it with the with the lineage of Merlin it is but but um most of the time with the with the knights it isn't you know it doesn't you don't have this other race of creatures that's just living alongside you um they do have the fay and they do have elves in in Arththeran legend so there's >> is it is it then is it then sort of because I I don't have the you have I mean you studied medieval literature right so you you know this stuff so much better but after having read the story of Kervo uh two episodes ago would you say there's some sort of melding between the two because there's >> the the destruction, disaster, the kinds of characters in there uh don't fit into an Arththeran >> legend as far as I can tell. It doesn't feel Arththeran to me. So, what he's doing is he's taking it's taking what he grew up on, which is Arththeran legend in in Britain, >> and melding it with what he found that he loved, something that was very new to him and completely, like he said, it was it was like discovering like Columbus discovering a new world when he read the story of when he read um the the Kalibala.

[00:51:29]So you'd say that like after reading that that there is this sort of weird melding between the two.

[00:51:34]>> There is plus whatever background he's been building of his whole world like you know.

[00:51:39]>> Yeah. Which is part which is what which is what it is. You write what you know, right? And he's writing.

[00:51:42]>> Yeah. He's >> exactly big on the geography. He's big on you know words like you could already see the philological elements where he's telling you what their battle cries mean as they leave in the morning. you know, he's he translates their words for us and he makes their words and he and I can tell reading the you know the loo kalad drego I you can I can see and I can parse even a little bit you know with an inlected language knowledge with Latin and stuff I can parse how he gets to the words um literally he's saying you know a light or caused laco and then collad would be the the flame and then drago again the imperative And then mourn is night. Um where we get morning, end of night literally. And so there's a um it's a he's he's a philologist. You can see the philology there. But um but it's and he's very particular about his his geography as well. He he brings up a lot of geography in this chapter.

[00:52:45]>> But ultimately, I think you're right. I think this is like a three a tripartite melding. He's melding the Icelandic, Nordic um tales that he loves with Calervo. Um, and he's melding the uh heraldrich arththerian tales that he grew up with and have ste are steeped in all of British the British Isles and he's melding all of that with his own world that he created in Bolyrian and the beginnings of Middle Earth and so so along you know with complete with the different ages and the and the Sylmerelion tale of the elves like this is the backdrop right why are the elves there why where are They're even fighting Morgoth. Well, we know the reason. It doesn't tell us about the simmerals in this chapter. But so the men don't know. Interestingly, the men don't reference the simmerals, but we know the simmerals are the reason why the Nul are there in the first place.

[00:53:39]The men either don't know about it or don't talk about it. And I would >> Well, there's no reason to think they would know about it.

[00:53:44]>> I I would Yeah. I would lean towards don't know about it. Um Yeah. And so, >> like you said earlier, the elves are indifferent. They don't communicate.

[00:53:50]>> But, you know, but why wouldn't they know about like But there's a chance they do know about it. Um, Jonathan, because they they reference the fact that they're they're all happy that Baron and Lucian have like defeated Morgoth in his own halls. Like like they're getting hope from the fact that >> but yeah, but they may not know the the the um >> the familial issues surrounding the Sylmerils like that that all the details of it like it's a great treasure is probably what they know because the idea that these things were came from do they even know about?

[00:54:20]>> They come they come back with a sil.

[00:54:22]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:23]>> Um >> um I have I have a couple more things that I want to bring. One want to I mentioned earlier is uh some of the foreshadowing that they throw in there that that Tolken has which I didn't catch uh until this time I read through where >> um Hurin says when they're talking about where to go if things go ill.

[00:54:40]>> Uh and Hurin says my heart does not lean to thinking when when Melian bring or Melian when Morwind brings that up. Uh, no help will come to him. Well, no help will come from him to King Finggon. And I know not what shadow falls on my spirit when Doryath is named, which should I say the spoiler? Like what happens? Like I don't know, but Doryath is not a great thing ultimately for anybody in the house of >> Right. Well, well, don't don't Yeah, don't spoil it yet. Um, we're I think we're going to get more references, >> right? And then and then Morwin forbods Brethl later where she says uh at the name of Brethl my heart also is darkened. So they have a sense of like what may come that if if these are the directions they end up taking and so they don't really have a plan for what's going to happen. They don't decide like if things go ill here's what we're going to do. Nope. They have they really they they just leave it at that and don't resolve that issue. But that's that sense that foreshadowing there is very clear uh and not an accident. Um, the other thing that I thought was really interesting to me, the the the phrase that stood out, and I've got one more thing after this, um, is we learn in this statement by by Morwin uh, and about about Hurin where she says um, it's sort of a full summary of their attitudes, right? Um Hur and Thallian said Mormon this I judge truer to say that you look high but I fear to fall low.

[00:56:11]>> And this is what uh Christopher Tolken brought up. He he he looks high if if I were to say what that means is like he does not he's not going to say no. He's not going to take a loss. He's looking high. He's he's going to get he's the one that's going to get to the mountaintop first. He has a fire as we learned. Um, and we learn that because as we'll learn in the next episode, right, he is he becomes Morgoth's thrral and never essentially bows to him. He's never he's never officially broken in the way of like I'm going to become a a thrral of yours or a spy for you, >> which is which is stunning because even Morgoth can't break him. Morgoth ends up twisting him, but he can't break him.

[00:56:51]>> He can't break him. So So he looks high.

[00:56:53]At the other end, Morwin lives in fear.

[00:56:56]Like her entire life after the death of the life, the death of Irwin is fear.

[00:57:00]And that's when she says, uh, where's my quote here? I fear to fall low. Um, and so she never makes a decision because the fear rules her. Um, even up until the very end where she finds out what happened.

[00:57:13]>> That's That's really true. That's really true. I also found like the little tidbits interesting like in that conversation where she says um the house of she's talking about the what happens if um I if uh basically the men and elves fail and and especially in the house of Hador you know that she's married into fails and she says um her in thought a while in silence there is my mother's skin and breathly said that is some 30 leaks as the eagle flies if such an evil time should indeed come what help would there be and men said Morwin the house of Bayor has fallen that's her that's her own house if the great house of Hador that's herin's house falls in what holes so the little folk of Helith creep so you it's I I find it funny because she's she's dismissive of the third house of men that live in brethl the house of hell um so there's you you get a hint of this sort of what's always the case with noble noble societies which is there's a pecking order to um to how they view each other and who's higher and lower and better and um you know she's she comes from a house that's already fallen but she holds it in high esteem higher than the house of Hollith in Brethl and so um so it's interesting but uh but you're right this this this conversation is to me is a mix of like prophecy and foreshadowing plus um personal character disposition that is being explicated like you pointed out plus um sort of giving us Tolkien's giving us the background so we get an a sense of even how the great houses view each other um sort of uh you know inter polit the politics of the houses of land and so I I find it fascinating >> in this yeah you'll not only get that you get the relationship between elves and men in this one we already know he he does set the the stage well I wish I knew how much of this because a lot of this is based out of so many notes that Christopher Tolken did have to put together how much of this was Christopher Tolken how much of this was JR Tolken I mean clearly talking, you know, I hear you. I hear you. I don't actually worry that a lot of it from from seed as Christopher because Christopher had too much respect for his father's work. Um, you know, he I could see him piecing together things that his father wrote, he has to choose between stories about them and piece them together. But I I don't I don't actually of all the people on in the world, all the sons in the world of their you know working on their father's um uh literary content, Christopher Tolki I have the least fear about with regard to in curious >> Simon would be different but we don't talk about him. Uh, you know, I'm just curious in the sense like I'd like to know how much he did, right?

[00:59:55]Like I'd love to see the original notes is I mean this is more my my my side of like man I just want to know cuz this like I said outside of Lord of the Rings is my favorite story in Middle Earth and to know everything he wrote about it and like he said like his problem was he never finished anything until he was absolutely forced to with the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Um nothing else was ever done.

[01:00:12]>> So uh anyway he was in perpetual storytelling mode. Yeah.

[01:00:15]>> Yes. Yeah. That's right. Um, one other thing I wanted to bring up is one of the things that I always like, why do I always think about, okay, what is it about Tolken's writing that I like so much? What >> why does it speak to me so much as a writer, as the way that he crafts worlds?

[01:00:30]>> So, one of the things I wanted to talk about, and this has come up a few times, is that the way he uses metaphor or >> simile, >> he doesn't use metaphor or simile most of the time like this. Obviously, always exceptions to the rule, things on a are on a bell curve. He doesn't use it to say things like um she was as bright as the sun or >> right >> uh the leaves were green like the eyes of I don't know how about the the grass was green um like the envy of men or something like that right doesn't make like things that don't come together here's how he does it um he attaches metaphor simile to the world that he's already built to help build it more And this is the the the the quote that said out to me that will exemplify this. Her hair, he's talking about Lilith here about Irwin, her hair was like the liies in the grass as she ran in the fields, and her laughter was like the sound of the merry stream that came singing out of the hills past the walls of her father's house. So, he's not only creating a a metaphor to describe her and show her, but he's actually building the world with it at the same time. Um, and that's something you don't read. I was uh I can't remember which book it was, but I was reading a book and I was like, man, these metaphors and similies like really like it's just amateurish when you say, you know, uh like I said, she she was she show her eyes shown like the sun.

[01:01:48]I'm like, what does that even mean? Like so so what? Like what? But the way he's doing it, like she's a part of this world and I'm creating the world and telling you like her her laughter flowed over the world like the the the the clean fresh water that came that was, you know, beside her father's house.

[01:02:04]Anyway, I just it just I was I'm going to try and notice that more often. The way that he crafts these parts, these things and build the world.

[01:02:11]>> I am I Yeah, I am too. And uh I was happy to see that he got like glittered appear. Glittered is Tolkien's favorite.

[01:02:19]Gleamed and glittered are Tolkien's favorite uh descriptions of light on things. So So we have lots of glittering in this this one uh with this. Yeah, I I myself I I was focused I was focused on this is the heraldric, you know, the sort of the the medieval aspects of this because the it it fit obviously it fits my background but but I was very much appreciating the scene like the scene of him watching his father go away, the gathering of the men and the 50 swords and the scene like in the morning and his mother's there and he watches them pass away over the hills and beyond And you know then the farewells that that happened there that's so epic poetry from the middle ages that is so um >> I just I just think about this and think like man if somebody with some passion had come come create a story out of this here like the visuals in this this kind of a tale would be incredible >> would be fantastic but but those people would have to be humble enough to not try to impose their own >> let's not I know it's right >> I know but I just think about what it would take this is why you and I have to make it one day. Okay. So, first first comes the independent wealth and then comes the making the making.

[01:03:35]>> That's right. So, I I only need about uh 40,000 people to subscribe to the Exploring Tolken podcast and then we'll talk about making the children of Turin.

[01:03:43]>> That's right. That's right.

[01:03:44]>> Sorry. Um okay. Hey guys, thank you for listening. Uh this was this was a long one. And we're we're going to spend more time in this in in a sense in the because um not many people do and I think we get a lot out of it. And so we're going to be the >> you can you can go into the amount of um the amount of scholarly works around the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings is and even the similar one is is tremendous.

[01:04:03]But when you get into something as specific the children who it's just not there. So um we hope you enjoyed that.

[01:04:08]We're trying to bring things out that you might have missed uh to to to cast some light on some things that might have been a little bit of shadow for you. Uh hope you enjoyed it. We're going to get into our extended podcast.

[01:04:16]Remember, if you want to get the app, just look up exploring Tolken or go to the wondering.com/app and it'll forward you to the app store. Um, it will work on an iPad. It's not it's not optimized for an iPad yet, but it'll work on an iPad. It'll work on a phone. And um yeah, and if you do want to become a member still and not pay the five bucks to Amazon, you can go to the oneing.com/member and uh pay the four bucks a month and then just use your login from the website to log into the app. It's just right there. It's just easy. Um, and uh, it's a dollar cheaper for you. And the only reason it's a dollar cheaper is because Apple takes a 30 something% and uh, when it's straight through the website, I only pay the 3% to the credit card company. So, there you go. Um, hope you join us there. Hope you see us in the app. And, uh, if you find any problems or anything like that, hey man, I'm I'm open to any suggestions or things like that. Um, I'm the benevolent dictator creating this here uh, with your input. So, feel free to uh to to give me your ideas.

[01:05:13]>> Exactly.

[01:05:13]>> All right, everybody. On the other side of this here, we're going to look at some uh recent news, some uh interesting comments we had about last week's episode. Uh maybe a correction or two.

[01:05:23]Not a correction, maybe a point or two.

[01:05:26]Uh we're not we're always right, so nobody's really correcting us. We're just Exactly.

[01:05:30]>> People are making points about it.

[01:05:32]>> All right, everybody. We'll see you on the other side.

[01:05:34]>> All right, take care.