Mackenzie Shirilla Says it All in the Shocking & Disturbing Jail Calls with Her Mom

Added: 2026-06-04

[00:00:01]You did threaten to stab me in the eye.

[00:00:05]Yeah, I don't care. That was an exchange between Dom Russo, no longer with us, uh, killed in that now infamous car crash, which is the, uh, subject of the new Netflix documentary, The Crash, speaking to his one-time girlfriend, McKenzie Sharilla. There about 32,000 text messages that have been released and it gives us a glimpse into the mind of McKenzie Sharilla. What is going on between those ears?

[00:00:36]>> Welcome to the global phenomenon surviving the survivor. Here's your host, Emmy award-winning journalist Joel Waldman.

[00:00:45]>> What's up, SCS nation? Welcome to Surviving the Survivor. This is the global phenomenon bringing you the very best guests in all of true crime with more than 50 countries represented in our community from Australia to the Republic of Ire Ireland. Don't forget the Kingdom of Lutu which is a landlocked country inside of South Africa. Don't forget Carter, New Jersey, Highland Park, New Jersey, my hometown and home state and people in Montana all the way to Maryland. We cover it all. Uh for four years, uh prosecutors, uh four years ago convinced a judge that McKenzie Sharilla intentionally drove her car nearly 100 miles an hour into the side of a corporate uh um office building. It was a brick wall that she went 100 miles uh an hour to in Strongsville, Ohio, killing Dominic Russo, 20 years old, and his friend Davon Flanigan, 19 years old. Uh one did not die instantly, but it was obviously a gruesome and painful way uh to leave the world. And now we are getting a glimpse. Of course, that is Dom on the left, DaVon on the right, and we uh recently had Christine Russo, uh Dom's bigger sister on. And uh what an amazing person and how she is handling and dealing with all this. But um what was going on in this relationship were all these kind of crazy text messages, some of which we're going to look at today, and then now these prison calls and jailhouse calls between McKenzie Sharilla and her mom. Um is this just a a a young immature woman or is there something much more sinister at play here? Uh we're about to bring on a pair of amazing psychologists uh to dissect that. We're going to go into the mind of McKenzie Sharilla. So prepare yourself.

[00:02:53]It could be like walking into a haunted house. But one of the kind of focal points of this crazy story happens to be social media. We found out from Christine Russo herself that while Mackenzie Sharilla and her family claimed that she had been in some sort of coma and unconscious in the hospital, we found out that was not the case, at least from Christine Russo's perspective. And that Mackenzie Sharilla in the aftermath of this accident was actually tick- tocking from her hospital bed. And it scares the crap out of me.

[00:03:27]Social media does. Uh and now there's proof that it should scare the crap out of you. And that is because Meta uh just one company which happens to own Facebook and Instagram uh they lost a lawsuit. They were ordered to pay millions for their role in promoting addictive platforms. They knew Mark Zuckerberg and company they knew that their apps could contribute to anxiety to body dysmorphia uh and other social uh issues. Uh and they did not warn anyone. So now Morgan Morgan they are taking action. If you or someone you know has experienced serious mental health struggles as a result of social media use, and I might be one of them, uh I should click the link in the show description. You should definitely click the link in the show description. You take a short quiz. At the very least, you'll learn uh more about um social media and the harmful effects of it. And at the very best, you might also get $1,000 in some sort of settlement uh from Morgan and Morgan. Uh again, you just click the link in the show description. Um and that goes a long way uh just for surviving the survivor to make some amazing content. So uh do it at your peril, but uh it will likely be enlightening. So without further ado, let's bring in today's best guest. And the first best guest is a first time best guest, which are among our favorites. Uh we've got Jennifer Tamasic. And Jennifer, I should have asked you, did I just pronounce your last name correctly?

[00:04:59]>> You did, Joel.

[00:05:00]>> Excellent. Thank you. So, I'm one step ahead. Um, Jennifer is a uh co coercive control psychologist. She's an expert witness, a researcher, an educator. The bottom line is uh she is an absolute expert when it comes to coercive control and she will help break it down. The next phase, you know, uh she is great.

[00:05:20]She is a tick- tocker of her own, but she does tick tock for the right reasons. That is Dr. Leslie Dobson. Here she is, a forensic psychologist, always enlightening people uh via social media.

[00:05:34]Hey, how come you're saying bad things about social media and then you've got a woman that Tik Toks on social media? Uh Leslie Dobson, can social media uh for all its perils be used in a constructive manner in the way that you?

[00:05:47]>> Yeah, definitely. I mean, everyone needs to just follow me to understand that, but we >> I think you have to be in >> uh well, my YouTube is Dr. Leslie Dobson, Tik Tok, and Instagram. But I have so many violations. Who knows?

[00:06:02]They'll probably be deleted. But I think you have to be aware of the algorithms and how these systems work because if you are depressed, it's going to feed you more depressing content and it's going to make things worse. So, you know, you can change your algorithm. You can reset life, but also your phone is a phone. It's not a human being. So, we also need to take breaks and have human relationships.

[00:06:26]>> Yeah, that's that's sort of a good thing at times. Um, Jennifer, how about you?

[00:06:30]Um, are you uh tick- tocking your uh advice to the world? Are you on uh social media? Where can people find you?

[00:06:38]I have not uh gotten into the Tik Tok game yet, but I am on Instagram and Facebook.

[00:06:43]>> All right. Under your name. Is that how people find you?

[00:06:46]>> Yes.

[00:06:46]>> Okay. Uh just a programming note, you might uh realize that neither Jennifer nor Leslie look at all like my mom, who typically hosts today. Uh Karm is battling um a sore throat. She's coughing. Um, it's sort of an amazing moment in my life when my mother, who loves to talk, cannot talk. Uh, and she cannot talk right now. Uh, she was the, uh, focus of a documentary, a Holocaust documentary, and she was at the screening earlier this week, and I think that may have, uh, put her out of commission, but she wants you all to know uh, she will be back next week. Um, there is nothing actually more frightening to me than my mother being silent, than not hearing that voice uh and her screaming at me. But she will be back. She tried to scream at me today and uh she began uh to have a little bit of a coughing fit. But trust me, by tomorrow uh she will be back. Karm, my beloved mother, feel better. Um, so just going back to the story, uh, when this all happened back in 20, uh, 22 and and this then 17-year-old Mackenzie Sherilla drives his car at a 100 miles an hour into a brick wall. It ended up going to trial. Uh, the defense argued uh, that it was just a tragic accident, a horrible accident. The prosecutors, the government said it was all intentional.

[00:08:10]It was a double homicide. And the Sherillas had the choice. McKenzie did and she opted to go to a bench trial with a judge which I'm not sure why to be honest because I think she would have had a way better shot uh with a jury of her peers who may have felt bad for a then 17year-old 18 at the time of the trial. Uh but ultimately she was convicted um of double homicide in concurrent terms 15 years to life. So they're not consecutive but concurrent.

[00:08:42]And uh Netflix, the crash came out and suddenly this story has absolutely blown up. Leslie Dobson, um I could be wrong, but have you seen the crash? I assume you probably did. And what were your what was your kind of 30,000 foot bird's eyee view takeaway from it?

[00:09:01]>> Um yeah, I definitely saw it and like millions of people told me to watch it.

[00:09:08]Um, you know, we can't diagnose people we haven't worked with, but we can we can talk about behaviors and things we see in public figures. And because this is so public, we can talk about what we think is going on with this girl. Um, but I am kind of back and forth with I'm seeing psychopathic traits, but I'm also seeing really severe attachment issues.

[00:09:30]And I kind of go back to this relationship started when she was 13 years old. So, what is her brain like?

[00:09:37]What is her mind like with all the substance use? You know, we we have all the evidence in place, but there's also so much to question about this girl's life, her parents, everything that led up to this, not just this.

[00:09:54]>> Yeah. Um, interesting. And I mean, that makes sense because you're not just one thing. You're a combination of many things that creates the person uh who you are. Um, Jennifer to you, same question. I mean, from really just this has got to be and my mother, by the way, is a licensed therapist for 40 plus years. Um, and she's very interested in the psychological aspect. So, I assume psychologists in general that this is an a very interesting case study. Um, same thing from sort of a macro perspective.

[00:10:29]What was your visceral reaction to learning about this story?

[00:10:34]I'm actually sort of refreshed to hear what Dr. Leslie said because I had a very interesting experience watching the the film in general where I kind of allowed my heart to just kind of move with the different emotions that were going on with different people and just kind of trying to really focus in on what was happening with those individuals.

[00:11:00]So all the way from the parents to McKenzie to then all the other anecdotes that you're hearing about the relationships.

[00:11:09]And I think that also is when it came to McKenzie um there really were parts of me that were kind of confused about what was going on. I think as I was processing that the evidence is this black box where we can tell that the pedal was to the metal for an exact period of time. Um I think the other thing that has kind of lingered with me around this case is the fact that she was tried in adult court instead of juvie. And this kind of goes to a larger issue that maybe we'll get into at some point of really kind of the brain science and what's happening with young children. Dr. Leslie kind of touched on this where there is brain development happening.

[00:12:01]That doesn't mean that there can't also be other sort of comorbid factors, right? We hear a lot of discussion right now with psychologists that are analyzing her and coming out with kind of a bipolar diagnosis.

[00:12:14]I mean, it makes sense. Again, we're not here to diagnose. Um, but when I look at that, things make a little more sense to me. Um, but it's it's I think it's very layered and nuanced. Um, >> and I do see elements to the relationship, of course, which I'm sure we'll go into. um you know when you're really tracking the behaviors in the relationship there were obviously serious problems and um she is also displaying um major issues in the relationship.

[00:12:53]>> Yeah. Uh again um both Jennifer and Leslie uh making the point that there is it's not you know a simple one-word answer. It's a complex person here and a complex relationship. Uh, however, with that said, my father, may he rest in peace, he was a psychiatrist, which is why I'm so screwed up. I'm the son of two therapists. But my dad was not a big label guy. My dad was a very practical guy. And I can hear his voice saying exactly what this comment is saying. You know what, Joel? She's just a spoiled brat. Uh, this girl is just a spoiled brat in my opinion. Um, we can get the experts take, but Kelly Mlen here, uh, did you see her prison girlfriend? uh she spoke out. I was on a panel with her yesterday uh on a Nancy Grace show and I survived that. But that will actually be I believe on YouTube uh today. So um her prison girlfriend uh spoke out on that.

[00:13:49]Now this is there is breaking news. Look at this. TMZ I guess TMZ is the new New York Times at least when it comes to this stuff. McKenzie Sharilla busted for allegedly engaging in sexually explicit video call in prison. Dr. Leslie Dobson, I was just listening. And again, 32,000 text messages have been released. We're going to dive into some of them and some of these calls uh as well from jail and prison. Um, but in one of in one of the recent calls uh she was talking about uh to a friend about quote unquote these hot guys that she's been talking to. Now she gets busted in what I I will presume to be some form of bone sex. I don't know how that happens in prison. Um Dr. Leslie, what's your diagnosis on that? Is that any surprise? Um, let me tell you, if I if this was me, I'd be curled up in a ball in the corner in a fetal position, just devastated. I killed two people.

[00:14:52]Uh, I I I don't know that I'd be able to go on with my life. I I would just be beside myself. Not only is she functioning and kind of getting off on all the attention, we now find out through TMZ that she's having these se or at least asexual relationship on her prison tablet. Your thoughts?

[00:15:10]I mean, you know, if we're looking at at the psychopathy, we have the lack of remorse. She's being callous, she's superficial, she's hypersexual, promiscuous. Um, she's got the criminal versatility now. And in these video calls, you know, you can go you go into a room with a computer or a tablet and you can have a private space and a video call and the caller has to usually pay for it. So, she could be like showing a nipple. I don't know how much she would expose cuz everyone else could see her uh inside the the prison as well. Uh but they're also monitored so she would know she was going to get caught or she wouldn't know because she's that naive.

[00:15:47]I don't really know. But you know, she does before the accident. I wouldn't throw out the word psychopathy. The behaviors after the accident are looking so much in line with somebody who is detached from healthy emotions, normal reactions, someone who would would show remorse. You know, she didn't talk to the cops, she didn't talk to anyone, but she did a Netflix documentary and she wanted to be she wanted to explicitly state in that documentary that that there was no intention, right, to end these lives. So, you know, it shows me that she is she is very detached from her emotions herself and that does load on so much of antisocial psychopathic traits.

[00:16:32]>> Yeah. Um, little Miss Red Velvet often in the chat. Welcome documentary. Is that benefiting from a crime? Yeah, I'm sure uh this family was actually paid uh by Netflix and it was very uh one of the big criticisms that Christine Russo had who was a guest on Surviving the Survivor just uh a day or so ago, who is Dom's Big Sister and she has the Unhinged Big Sister podcast now. Uh check it out. Uh but but one of the complaints and one of the things she's doing is trying to um update the Son of Sam laws. First of all, not every state uh far from every state has a son of Sam law, which was basically created around the serial killer uh known as son of Sam in New York in the 70s that basically said he couldn't profit from anything. U but she wants to update those laws uh with you know modern society and social media and al streaming uh documentaries things of that nature. So that's one of the things that she's working on. Johnny Knoxville uh in the house gifting five surviving survivor memberships. Giving up jackass for surviving survivor. Uh and then look at this. In honor of the bot mitzvah girl, my daughter was bot mitzvah last week. Thank you so much. Uh very very kind of you. Racer girl five surviving the survivor uh memberships.

[00:17:50]Um that is Harvey Levan. Uh I thought he just magically appeared. I thought he was going to give Bob Bach Mitsah a shout out, but he's going to talk about these infractions. Uh the latest news with McKenzie Sharilla getting in trouble in prison for sexual conversations. Let's play it. COE.

[00:18:14]>> So McKenzie Sharilla, who was profiled in Netflix's The Crash, which is an enormous uh enormously successful documentary. Uh this is the woman I I would almost say girl uh who um killed her boyfriend and their good friend um by crashing into a wall at a 100 miles an hour. She was found guilty of murder.

[00:18:38]She is serving time. We have now obtained um some conduct reports from the prison. Um and we're going to talk about some sexual misconduct allegations.

[00:18:52]But first, um, some interesting phone calls between McKenzie and her mom. Uh, and this kind of is a window.

[00:19:05]All right. Um, I don't know if we if the COE is going to try to get to that. Uh, we roll with it here. Um, on STS, one of the points that Dr. Leslie made uh Jennifer uh hypersexual.

[00:19:20]Where does that come from? I mean, I I don't know what aspects of these are nature versus nurture, what was taught to her by her parents where maybe she's just a sexual person in nature, but Dr. Leslie says she is hypersexual. You know, in all her videos, she's making, you know, the the kiss lips at the camera. She's having phone sex on her or iPad sex, whatever the hell you call it, tablet sex. Uh, what's going on with her sexuality at this very young age?

[00:19:50]>> Well, without knowing her entire history, of course, there's not that much that I can say other than it certainly looks like something that's attention seeking. Um, and I think in the documentary, even though we're kind of talking about the before and after Kenzie, that is one element that you really do get to see in the series is kind of her um comfortability in front of the camera, her desire to become a model, her appreciation for nice expensive clothing and things that she can sort of show off online. Um, so that definitely seems to be a pretty consistent trait in terms of the attention seeking.

[00:20:31]>> Yeah. Uh, time does go uh quickly. Uh, gosh, goes by so quickly. Best channel.

[00:20:36]Thanks, Nate Dog. Uh, who is there? Mim Benjamin also gifting five uh, surviving the survivor memberships which will go out directly uh, to you. There is another piece of news and then I can see the COE's queuing up some of that TMZ stuff. Uh, thank you to uh, uh, Elena Bonia. CO will laugh at my espanol there, but that wasn't Elena Bonia. Um, so another bit of news, the appeal, Dr. Dobson, um, she was already denied one uh, appeal. Well, two appeals. One was because they filed it late, but then the Ohio Supreme Court said, "We're not going to look at it." But now they're trying to get the Ohio uh, Supreme Court to take a look at it. Essentially, uh, now issuing new claims. This is the Sharilla family of blackout uh blackout claim that she suffers from this disease known as POTS which there was never actually any verified medical diagnosis of this as as far as from what I understand during the trial. It never came in but now they're saying that that was an actual diagnosis that they've got paperwork from the doctors. Um it seems and they were upset because apparently the family also said, "Hey, we gave the defense material and they just didn't use it." Uh what part of you thinks that there's some sort of physical component to this crash that maybe, you know, it was a blood pressure issue uh and she fainted before uh impact?

[00:22:08]>> Well, you know, I think they say it in the documentary like if she fainted, her foot wasn't going to be pushing down the pedal, right? and she also surveiled the area prior to doing this days before.

[00:22:18]>> Um, so it doesn't make sense. I did see that they had some text messages of her saying like, "Mom, I'm scared I blacked out." But what they also left out was that she was a drug dealer and they were doing a [ __ ] ton of drugs. So, is it, you know, I would probably black out and pass out if I smoked pot. I don't like pot. Um, but she was doing a hell of a lot more as well. Uh, I don't think that I don't think that they're going to win.

[00:22:44]This girl is going to be locked up for a long time and the state and the government did a really good job.

[00:22:50]>> I agree. Are you surprised, Dr. Leslie, that they opted for a bench trial and not a jury of her peers who I think, look, you get a mother of a young child on that jury and maybe she would have said, "Hey, this this is a underage woman at the time of the accident. You got to cut her a break." Are you surprised that they went with a judge?

[00:23:11]No. And my reason for that is because she doesn't present well. She's not likable. Uh her videos are not likable.

[00:23:19]She wants people to be envious of her.

[00:23:21]And I would question her continuity of presentation when she was on the stand.

[00:23:27]Um she sure cried a lot, but in the Netflix documentary, she put that giant [ __ ] bun on her head and had like no remorse and was totally callous. So, I think her legal team likely thought, you know, if people look at this girl for long enough, they're going to see holes and maybe a judge would actually have have a bit of a heart and give her a second chance or a suspended sentence, something like that.

[00:23:53]>> Yeah. Uh Christy gifting a membership uh generous community today and every day.

[00:23:58]Um, along with psychopathy, forgive me, I'm I'm not uh what what does the panel think about her having ODD? She's extremely defiant. Um, is that a term odd? I'm not familiar with it. Um, but >> yeah, obsessional or obsessional, sorry, oppositional defiant disorder. It's diagnosed uh prior to antisocial disorder when you turn 18.

[00:24:21]>> Uh, so your thoughts, is that something that she could exhibit or have or be done? Yeah, I mean she definitely she definitely did things consistent with that diagnosis. She was really defiant again. The criminal versatility, the drug dealing, the pushing against social norms, the callousness, lack of regard for other people's well-being. I mean, the volatile relationship that started at 13, it was just full of things in that diagnosis. But who's to say, you know, who was it coming from? Was she the leading one? you know, everyone in this seems very messy. And if you look at the stuff Netflix didn't include, um, there's even more mess, right? So, you're, you know, we're basing a lot of this on a on a documentary where the producers put together a beautiful documentary that kept everyone engaged and it's gone viral, but they left out a lot of stuff, too.

[00:25:12]>> Yeah, they left out a ton. And again, one of the criticisms that Dom's big sister has is that they didn't really interview Dom's friends. It was very like McKenzie Sharilla uh heavy. Um but let let me ask you uh Jennifer where where does one um lay the blame um on parents? Uh now Steve Sherilla uh the father is out doing interviews. Um he just comes across as to me uh this is a personal take that he's insensitive that he is completely oblivious uh to the spawn that he has uh created uh makes millions of excuses for her. So where do you bring in for a young adult now uh the intersection of um you know parental um involvement in the way the parents raised this kid.

[00:26:08]>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think again to this point where we see what we see in the docu series but then in addition to that we've of course learned more. And so when I hear that this is a child that has um threatened suicide numerous times, right, when you have a kid that that's sort of their go-to to push the parents to pay attention, action needs to be taken. And the fact that there was never any action around that care for her well-being in that way. Um and again I I have a lot of compassion on parents. I think with some parents, you know, you may just have a lot going on such that you are just trying to tell yourself that my kid's okay, my kid's okay, my kid's okay in reaction to feeling like your kid isn't okay. So there can be something as as minor as or sort of innocent as just self-denial because of the deep pain of what's going on and then there can just be complete neglect. Um but in this case this girl was crying for help. She was making cries for help. And I actually see some of this, you know, if you don't mind me deviating to kind of the coercive control discussion. Part of what I have seen in some of the footage that was interesting to me is that if McKenzie is constantly doing the suicidal threats, when you're with a partner like that, that is terrifying >> and you are on an emotional roller coaster ride with that person. And we know that Dom was exhausted by this relationship. We know that whatever their fights were that it was just wearing him down to the point where he was ready to leave the relationship.

[00:28:11]Again, if we're looking at somebody here who's bipolar and there's sort of this deep underlying um fear of abandonment um and like distorted self-image and sometimes like feelings of emptiness, then she might be just engaging engaging engaging with him in these kind of ways that we see in these very unhealthy profiles.

[00:28:40]I think back to the clip where she's standing outside of his house and has keys and he won't let her in and I think Dom is filming it and she basically is threatening him consistently and persistently that he needs to let her inside otherwise she's going to key his car. H >> that is a very typical kind of coercive control entrapped type experience where you're in like a a lose-lose situation with this person.

[00:29:16]>> You really don't want to let them in because things are bad and if you don't your car is about to get keyed. How do you even manage that? So there's a so so I may have gone down a little bit of a different track here, but um it was interesting to kind of see some of those elements coming up. And we also do find that coercive controllers often will threaten suicide to maintain the relationship and keep the person coming back.

[00:29:44]>> Interesting. And yeah, we do see that in the text messages. We're going to get to the video in just a second. Uh and then I've got a bunch of text messages which we, you know, they're 32,000. I have a feeling we will not get to every one of them during this show. Uh Kelly Mlen, parents are not playing with a full deck. Uh I sort of agree with you there.

[00:30:01]Uh K9 Catherine giving us a super chat.

[00:30:05]I don't know if it's a chat though, whatever a super is without a chat. Uh and Dom's mom as well. So uh thank you incredibly uh generous today. Uh appreciate it greatly. The COE has got this uh this is a trigger warning cuz I got to read it while uh Jennifer was speaking but uh I will for those who are listening and there are a lot I will read it and I will be careful reading it. This has to do with the breaking news that McKenzie Sharilla just got in trouble for a sexually explicit conversation on her tablet. It says Sharilla also allegedly engaged in a sexually explicit video call during which authorities say Sharilla showed her breast to a visitor. The visitor then allegedly showed Sherilla her breast with a toy that resembles a man sticking out of her pants twice before finally walking fully into frame completely naked. Officers say Sharilla admitted guilt on this one.

[00:31:07]In August 2025, an officer claims to have seen another inmate grabbing Sharilla's butt, a form of consensual sexual conduct which violates the rules. Sharilla denied being intimate with the other inmate. We know um Leslie cuz I've had uh a former uh prison inmate of hers on that she is or was at the time being very sexually promiscuous. Uh Black Widor from the Republic of Ireland saying what we're all thinking. Lord bless us and save us.

[00:31:41]But uh Leslie Dobson a sexually explicit call with a toy that resembles a man and they're showing all of this.

[00:31:52]You said it. She's uh hypersexual.

[00:31:55]What's really going on here?

[00:31:58]>> She doesn't give a [ __ ] And she's getting her rocks off.

[00:32:01]>> I need Leslie.

[00:32:03]>> What What else is going on here? She's moved around her groups now. She's now she's by or gay. She's she's playing the prison. She's, you know, she's moving into the social cultural norms of the prison life and she's having fun after she just ended the lives of two innocent boys and her life. I don't think she probably realizes what her life is now going to be like.

[00:32:29]>> Yeah. I mean, when you're young, you're dumb. And I don't want to keep making an excuse. Uh, let me ask you that. Um, I mean, Jennifer, is youth an excuse?

[00:32:38]Let's start there. I mean, can you say, "Well, she's young and dumb." Um, I would say yes, you could. Yeah, >> you could say she's young and dumb because that's what the brain science shows. You know, the maturity really isn't fully coming on board until like the 25 age and some science shows beyond that. Um, but they're also responsible for the consequences. And this actually kind of gets back nicely, I'm sorry Joel, to the original question that you asked me about the parents that these are also parents that had they been paying attention to these threats that she was making around suicide, they would potentially have changed this whole situation around. getting her help and also holding her accountable for the words that she's using um is what helps teach young people who they are, what the repercussions are, how you affect others, how to make new choices. And it seems like that process for her was stunted with the parenting that she received.

[00:33:53]>> Yeah. Uh, look, Nancy Dennis, uh, with an honest admission, I was young and dumb, too. However, my soul, I think we were all young and dumb. But, um, not all young, dumb people do really horrible things. Uh, and look, this is the other day I had some woman just badgering me on on on Twitter, which I love, and she's like, you know, you're not telling both sides of the story. I'm like, well, there, you know, I don't know that there are or is another side to this story. She was convicted in a court of law by a judge based on the evidence. Um, if something new comes out that she passed out, yeah, I'm willing to look at it. But right now, uh, she is a convicted double murderer for literally driving a car a 100 miles into a brick wall. Um, I don't know what other side of the story there is other than the Sherillas raised a monster, young or not. Um, I mean, I'm still dumb and consider myself young, even though I'm past middle-aged. And, uh, you know, I think about these things. I was taught to think about these things. We all are.

[00:35:01]I mean, it's human nature to not want to kill two people because they got under your skin. So, now she's getting under the sk my skin. And now me reliving this troll on Twitter is getting me under my getting under my skin. Real qu three three quick things and then we're going to get we're going to look at all the video. Um, one of the things that's going on right now, um, continuing, um, to go on, uh, is that I guess she lost some iPad privileges, maybe because of this, and now she's begging for this iPad back. I mean, Jennifer, is is that a bad idea? I mean, isn't that sort of like an enabling tool inside of there?

[00:35:39]>> I mean, I don't think that she should have any privileges that others don't have, right? whatever those rules are.

[00:35:46]Um that I don't know about. Um but I also think this whole, you know, Son of Sam laws um element is really important in this case because it's obviously a um publicity is a motivator for her.

[00:36:06]>> Yeah. Um, also, does it surprise you that she is complaining and whining about prison food, saying she's refusing to eat it and only eating commissary food?

[00:36:17]>> It's nice that she has commissary food.

[00:36:19]Who's putting money on her [ __ ] books?

[00:36:21]>> I guess her her Well, I I guess she's got guy fans and girl fans and uh the dad, but uh the story is going to make me crazier as we go on here. Let me play this first clip. Now, uh this is about the story becoming global and you can just hear the excitement. Uh forget the two people that were murdered >> in England.

[00:36:44]>> What?

[00:36:45]>> Excuse me. Um >> it's world news.

[00:36:51]>> I think the Daily Mail just publishes it in all the publications, but yeah, the UK.

[00:36:58]>> It's on the Daily Mail >> in UK. Maybe Kim Kardashian will reach out herself.

[00:37:03]>> That's what I'm saying. I'm hoping I'm hoping. We're getting there. I was going to do this anyway, so this is great.

[00:37:11]>> And they could just reach out to us.

[00:37:14]>> I I just want to stop it there because I don't think people know this is her mother, Jennifer. This is not a teenage friend. I mean, they're they're giggling about making a a British tabloid.

[00:37:29]They're so excited. Uh, and that, you know, they're gonna quote unquote reach out to Kim Kardashian, who, by the way, said there's no way I'm, you know, I only deal with the wrongfully incarcerated. So, kudos to Kim K. But this is the mother. How big a problem is this? And I'll play out the rest without interruption after >> but Jennifer. Yeah. To you. I mean, how big a problem is it?

[00:37:52]>> It's a big problem because again, this is back to that kind of accountability element, right? Children learn when they see people um have reactions to them.

[00:38:03]They learn that something that they just did wasn't good when their friends start to make fun of them for it. Right? I'm not advocating for bullying, but I'm saying the social interactions are how we learn about ourselves and our behavior to an extent to a large extent.

[00:38:19]So the fact that a parent who's in an adult authoritative position and a position of respect has not kind of introduced at all uh what the right mentality might be in as she is thinking about um having killed two individuals is it's like the mom's head is not in the right place. And so, of course, her daughters isn't either. And again, it feels like a big distraction to me. You know, this um desire for promotion and publicity.

[00:38:59]>> Uh whoever thinks this is not a global phenomenon, you're crazy. But if you don't think it's a family show, you're crazy, too. It says right here from the COE, uh Joel, I'm in Carpool Line Lane.

[00:39:10]Uh you're doing great. Don't forget super chats and comments, too. Thanks, COE. Uh, okay. This is now the rest of um McKenzie and her mom ecstatic that Kim Kardashian could come into the picture even though she isn't.

[00:39:25]>> Craziness, baby girl.

[00:39:28]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:39:31]Oh, this is what um So, wait, it's all over the world right now. How did you know that? Why didn't you tell me that when you filmed me? I was on just national news. Are you just >> We have one minute left. Are you going to call me back?

[00:39:40]>> Do you want me to?

[00:39:42]>> Uh, >> or do you have to work? I do have to work a little bit because um as the news article are coming in there, my sisters are sending me screenshots. So >> yeah, take all the screenshots because this is just going to be crazy when I come out of [ __ ] scrapbook.

[00:39:55]>> That's an innocent ass [ __ ] But anyways, I love you so much, Mom.

[00:39:58]>> I love you so much. Yeah, call me.

[00:40:01]Please call me um again if you can. I I would hate to hang up and then this >> No, it's okay. I'll call I'll call you again soon. I'll call you again today.

[00:40:08]>> Okay, >> for sure. I don't know when, but I will call you again as soon as I can again.

[00:40:11]I'll call you like I'll let you work for a minute. All right.

[00:40:13]>> I know a messages. I know you'll be okay. I love you.

[00:40:16]>> I love you. Love you. Love you, Mom. All right.

[00:40:18]>> Me, too. Just don't talk about the case with anyone.

[00:40:21]>> I love you so much.

[00:40:23]>> Even if they try and ask you a question, keep your spy senses up.

[00:40:27]>> I will.

[00:40:28]>> Okay.

[00:40:29]>> I just love you, Mom.

[00:40:30]>> I love you, too.

[00:40:31]>> Tell everyone that I love them and to keep fighting for me and to free me.

[00:40:34]>> Oh my god. Some [ __ ] truth. Love you.

[00:40:37]>> I love you. Bye.

[00:40:42]>> Keep praying for me. Uh don't think about the two people I murdered. She also says Leslie um I mean she's got enough uh I I guess sense to or uh self-awareness to ask her mother if she has to go to work and the mother says yes. But she, the mother now says when asked how is she finding out about all these stories all over the place, my sisters, meaning her her aunts, McKenzie's aunts or aunts are sending screenshots. And then she says, "Well, when I come out of jail, we'll we'll celebrate." Uh, a lot of things going on here. Uh, this is now extending, in my opinion, beyond just the parents. What's going on with the extended family? Are these all just crackpots who are encouraging this niece and daughter um to behave this way?

[00:41:34]>> I Yeah. I mean, she she definitely threw in at the end there that she's coming out as an innocent ass [ __ ] Um >> yeah, >> like where is this girl from now? She's like culturally different now that she's in prison. I Yeah, her her accent is changing.

[00:41:50]>> She bec she became Eminem in prison. I don't know what's going on here, but yeah, the mother, it's like the mother wants her to be her bestie uh regardless of what's happening. And these attachments are so insecure and flippant and so unhealthy even with the dad. I mean, you saw the dad got caught or he got what?

[00:42:12]>> Suspended from work.

[00:42:13]>> Suspend it. He's a teacher. Yeah. Got >> Yeah. So, he only comes out saying he doesn't smoke pot after that because it was like a Catholic school, right? Um, but even the dad didn't realize like the [ __ ] he's saying. The world's going to see and there's going to be consequences. And I don't think they've all really understood the layers of consequences and the severity that's about to come to them.

[00:42:35]>> By the way, I want to go on the record as saying that uh I consider Marshall Mathers aka Eminem aka the real Slim Shady uh to be one of the greatest talents of our generation. So, I did not mean to demean Eminem. I'm just talking their inflection and manner of speaking.

[00:42:51]But M is an absolute uh genius from Magros here. I think this dynamic of teaching each other, treating each other like friends started after she went to jail. Uh before that, she must have been impossible to handle. Uh the mother goes the way McKenzie orders. Uh there you go. And look, this this is why I clarified it. The COE says Eminem is offended. Eminem, you know, I put you on a uh pedestal. I think you're a lyrical genius. Um, some people asked earlier, Jennifer, and I know this gets um into like real particulars of diagnosis and and you know, you have to really know a patient, but any and apologies if you if you have flagged it earlier, but any um sense of a bipolar diagnosis here?

[00:43:38]People have been asking about that.

[00:43:41]I mean, if we look at bipolar, it's marked by kind of severe difficulties with emotional regulation leading to intense like mood swings, impulsive behaviors, and unstable relationships. Um, but as I mentioned also, there's sort of a deeper level of an experience of fear of abandonment and a distorted self-image.

[00:44:06]Um, sort of chronic feelings of like emptiness.

[00:44:10]Um, and and when I again without being able to diagnose, when I look at her, that's pretty that looks to be it appears to be pretty in alignment with a lot of her behaviors and some of those more intimate uh moments that we get to experience between her and Dom where there's just an absolute desperation to hold on to that relationship. And of course, we hear that from some of the people who really knew Dom and sort of some of those accounts that are more the Dom side versus the McKenzie side that they really said that he had been speaking about that for a long time and wanting the relationship to end.

[00:44:52]>> Yeah. Uh thank you. Here's someone with a psych in their name. I don't know if that means they actually are, but uh they say no bipolar. There's no history of mania, which is required in bipolar diagnosis. I would not have any idea the guest would about how to define mania because she seems Yeah. Leslie.

[00:45:08]>> Well, I you know, first you can't diagnose someone when they're [ __ ] up on drugs all the time, right? You got you got to have a clean person. Like what's the drug use about? It's self-medicating. It's mixing things up.

[00:45:19]But I think what the internet's talking about is borderline personality disorder, not bipolar as much, which is very different. It's the character. It's the It's the fear of abandonment that I will end your life if you leave me because I'm empty and I'm a broken mirror and I'm shattered inside. Bipolar is the mania and then the depression which we couldn't clearly see with her because of the drug use.

[00:45:44]>> Um, but you can also be a psychopath and be cool with hurting yourself, maybe ending your life just to harm someone so much that their life ends. and to not care about the guy in the back seat. So, I think there's there's a mix with this girl and we won't see clearly. And I think that's also a key point is there was no psychological assessment. There was no expert psychologist who did a full assessment battery on her. If I could sit down with her for eight hours and give her every test I wanted to, I could tell you exactly what was going on. So, there's a reason the defense did not want that and did not want her in front of a jury because she looks like the diagnosis she probably is, which led to the callous murders she completed.

[00:46:32]>> Yeah. Uh, I mean, Jennifer, what does it say? And then I promise I'm playing the videos, but what does it say when it appears that very widely people don't like her? Um, they're turned off by her.

[00:46:45]um she tends to um you know whatever the opposite of attract is uh that is what she's doing to the greater population. What does that say about her personality?

[00:46:59]>> To me really there's so much there of kind of her as a juvenile and acting in some of these ways even with coping strategies, right? like yes it's it can be seen as very callous that she's sitting in the hospital bed uh creating Tik Tok uh videos and that may also be something that is like a soothing mechanism for her because that's part of what she does in her everyday stuff.

[00:47:28]>> But I'm sorry Joel, what was the question? Did I answer it?

[00:47:32]>> Yeah, it was just like I mean when everyone you know every once in a while you see I don't know Mr. Rogers. She's got that lovable face. Like you you hear her speak and seems like the vast majority of people just have a disdain for her. Um I don't know if that's just me, but yeah. You know.

[00:47:46]>> Yeah. And I I always honestly I try to like if it's just sort of a personality thing, I try really hard to sort of put that aside because I understand there are certain people that aren't as likable. Um and then there's horrible fallout because of that. So for me personally, I'm not trying to look at those traits. I'm really trying to look at patterns of behavior.

[00:48:09]>> And someone said repel or repellent.

[00:48:11]Good words. I will have to uh put them into my um I don't know my my vocab circulation.

[00:48:18]>> A great example of that, Joel. I mean, the one that stands out the most to me is the Amber Herd Johnny Depp case.

[00:48:26]>> Yeah. You know, it's like people just did not like her and so and there was a lot of other stuff going on, but she got rad through the coals >> because people just didn't like her.

[00:48:37]>> I don't know exactly what this means.

[00:48:39]Real Mikey saying Dr. Leslie since big homie CC best guess STS. But there you go.

[00:48:47]>> Big homie did an interview during the Diddy trial.

[00:48:50]>> Oh, there we go. Oh, okay. There you go.

[00:48:52]All right. So, you heard her talking about uh and the mom about uh being on the front page of uh all these big newspapers around the world. Well, this is the them talking about the fan mail uh and responses she's getting.

[00:49:06]>> Oh, yeah. I had video calls today. I have four.

[00:49:09]>> Yay. Oh, I hope they work.

[00:49:13]I said, "Hey, it's so nice to reach out.

[00:49:15]I need all the support I get.

[00:49:20]I'm hoping the truth comes out eventually.

[00:49:28]>> Just say, you know, yeah.

[00:49:30]Yeah.

[00:49:31]>> E V. How do you spell eventually? E V E N.

[00:49:34]>> P U >> U. And I got to type it.

[00:49:40]>> A. No.

[00:49:41]>> L. No. Uh. P U A L L Y.

[00:49:47]Oh my god. I'm so glad your message isn't working.

[00:49:49]>> I need full support again. I'm hoping the truth comes out eventually.

[00:49:55]>> And then talk about his thing too. Like what happened? You want to share your story?

[00:49:59]>> First time in jail, so it's scary.

[00:50:05]>> Wait, I didn't hear your last sentence.

[00:50:08]>> I said this is my first time in jail, so it's scary. Lol.

[00:50:11]>> Yeah.

[00:50:14]>> How long were you locked up?

[00:50:18]Keith came to saying something like after this um I feel like half the people in jail are innocent.

[00:50:26]>> Remember just don't talk about the case with anybody, right? Because we don't know. He could be a reporter. We don't know.

[00:50:30]>> Oh, I wish he was a reporter. I'll talk to him.

[00:50:33]>> No, you can't talk about the case though.

[00:50:35]>> You just don't know who anybody is.

[00:50:36]Remember, you cannot talk about the case at all.

[00:50:39]>> I know. Especially with randoms, >> right? Or with anybody. But yeah, especially randoms.

[00:50:50]All right. So, uh, just doing a weird thing where it's ending a little earlier. Apologies. But, um, she says at the very beginning, uh, Dr. Leslie, that she's got four I I don't know the terminology she uses, but she's got four calls and she's ecstatic. These are from people she doesn't know and she thinks one of them might be a reporter, but the the point is the mother again praising her. Oh my god, you've got four calls.

[00:51:14]people are interested in you. We don't know exactly who they are. Just remember, don't talk about the case.

[00:51:20]>> Um, the mother is just so detached and also appears to me to be in herself in kind of arrested development. She sounds like a teenager.

[00:51:30]>> Yeah. I mean, she can't spell. Um, but she's taking the time to to coach her daughter, right? She's like constantly reminding her daughter, "Oh, I'll talk to a reporter." No. No, you won't because then they'll know that you're lying. Right. So, like they're just con she's constantly reminding her daughter who doesn't have the wherewithal to understand that she just ended two lives. Like she doesn't she doesn't seem to grasp this at all. She's just living on fame right now.

[00:51:58]>> Yeah. It's it's it's crazy. So, when I was on with uh Nancy Grace, and you can find this on her show on YouTube later today, she played a call between her and her mom. And if you if you'll remember, there was the so-called hot Khan. Uh it's a guy named Jeremy Meeks. And I have to admit, the guy's a good-look dude. He's like a light-skinned black guy with like crystal clear blue eyes. He was arrested. This has to be at least five years ago, if not more. They called him hot felon. And he went out, he got out, and he got a modeling contract. Um, >> yeah, >> but long story short, she's on a call, uh, Jennifer with her mom, and she is comparing herself to Jeremy Meeks, to the hot felon model guy, saying, "Maybe I can get a modeling contract." And the direct quote here is, "Remember that one guy who got arrested for murder?" It wasn't murder, by the way. Remember that one guy who got arrested for murder? And that's kind of interesting, by the way, in and of itself because it's such a it doesn't in her mind, murder, jaywalking, it's kind of all the same to her. She's not distinguishing here. But she says to the mother, "Remember that one guy got arrested for murder and he became like a model because he was just like everyone was like loving his mug shot. Mom laughs and confirms, hell yeah, this is the mom now. Hell yeah, that was hot. I remember that guy." Uh COE was supposed to have a photo of him.

[00:53:23]So you guys would remember, but you can Google Jeremy Meeks. Uh, but again, it's it's also all me me.

[00:53:31]Um, and she's comparing herself to this guy, saying, "I too can get a modeling contract instead of maybe I should think about the two guys I murdered and just shut my mouth for a while."

[00:53:44]>> Right. She's comparing herself to a murderer because she's a murderer.

[00:53:52]Freudian slip there. Uh she could have compared herself to other people. Maybe not Wade Wilson, but we have other people, women who have not ended lives, but are in prison who are attractive.

[00:54:05]There are other people she could have used.

[00:54:07]>> Steve Cohen, let's get Jeremy Meeks on the show for the women, please. We could put him in the STS calendar. Uh he might have some interesting things to say.

[00:54:14]Someone says uh you know he was actually thoughtful I believe after uh he was caught for some petty crime. Uh he got out and I think he's turned his life around. I think he's been in a couple of movies. I don't know if he was an actor before. Um but but Jennifer, I mean to that point, she's just so unbelievably uh self-absorbed. Uh which is what Karm says about me sometimes, but uh for full disclosure, but um it's kind of mindblowing, you know. Um, we had we have a pug named Fred and when Fred was like eight weeks old, he was trying to swim with Ethel and we lost uh like sight of him and uh the COE had to drag him out of the pool. He was okay. I I ran I was just thinking to myself back then, this is Fred the Pug. If Fred drowned in that pool, I do not know if I'd be able to like continue to go on.

[00:55:08]Uh, and I love dogs, but um, not that I would have taken my life, but I just And here you are, there are two people she kills in a car accident, human beings, and she's talking about the hot felon.

[00:55:20]So, what is that disconnect here?

[00:55:24]>> Well, you nailed it. It's a serious disconnect, isn't it? I mean, it's it's quite shocking again. Why do people disconnect? Because it's easier. because it's it feels safer for them in the moment because they're hiding from their emotions.

[00:55:41]Um, but I think it's also really significant as you said, you know, for most of us to imagine something like this happening certainly with somebody who you were close with for 5 years or four years, whatever it was, and then and then another life. Um, I mean that is just so devastating for most people.

[00:56:06]Um, to not be displaying and I think we have some accounts, right, from her prison mates and so on so forth where it just seems like she truly has not hit that wall of kind of realization of either what her life is going to be like and or what has actually happened. Um, and that's not normal.

[00:56:29]>> Yeah, not at all. Um, as if that wasn't enough, this is now them discussing fame and a book deal.

[00:56:36]>> Hey, Mom.

[00:56:36]>> Hey, pumpkin.

[00:56:38]>> Who's Stephen? And >> why?

[00:56:40]>> Oh my god.

[00:56:41]>> Oh my gosh. Hi. How are you? I just came across your story online. I'm just wanted to reach out and see how you're doing. I'm Steve. I'm 43.

[00:56:48]>> Holy crap.

[00:56:49]>> I've been on the long side of the law drinking and driving twice, so I know how being left up can get. If you ever want to talk or need a friend, I'm here for you. is >> hello. We say hey.

[00:57:00]>> Hey. Um, can you ask somebody what their number for the word is? So, messages aren't working.

[00:57:04]>> Oh, yeah. I have all my message.

[00:57:07]>> So, tell me who who who messaged you?

[00:57:09]>> Hold on. I'm messaging Steven.

[00:57:11]>> Okay.

[00:57:13]I'm going to write his name down.

[00:57:15]Kenzie.

[00:57:16]>> H.

[00:57:17]>> It's on the Today Show.

[00:57:20]>> What? girl. I'm telling you, they're about to get ready for the biggest [ __ ] plot twist of the century, right?

[00:57:27]>> What?

[00:57:28]What did they say about me?

[00:57:30]>> No, no, no. It's not on the TV. It's just online and they're just reposting a story. But that's okay. That's okay, right?

[00:57:39]That's all right. Plot twist, [ __ ] Right.

[00:57:45]That's okay.

[00:57:48]Write your book. Start writing your book. You hear what I'm saying?

[00:57:51]>> I need my baby book to write my book, though.

[00:57:53]>> I know. Well, maybe I can.

[00:57:55]>> I'll try it, though.

[00:57:56]>> You start writing your book.

[00:58:02]>> I have a feeling that by the time this is all over, this might be the most hated family in America. I can't remember the previously most hated family in America. This This is definitely going to be they're going to be up there. Um, get ready for the plot twist. What? when she finds out she's on the Today's Show, uh, you better get started writing your book. Um, Dr. Leslie, I mean, one of the things that strikes me about this is the unbelievable amount of fun she seems to be having. She doesn't seem depressed.

[00:58:34]She seems excited. Like, every day is a brand new adventure. Like, I'm in prison and things couldn't be better. There's two dead people, but my life is incredible. I'm getting attention.

[00:58:45]There's a 43y old guy. Um, why am I starting to hate her um and despise her uh as we're doing this show?

[00:58:55]>> I mean, just in that moment alone, like, okay, you're a mom. Why are you okay with a 43-year-old contacting your daughter? And why is the mom saying, "Bitch, like, you're not that cool. Look at you." Like, look at her. That is not how she normally would speak. But like you're you're seeing the interaction of like you're uncomfortable because their character is coming out. You're uncomfortable because they're being parasitic with disgusting attention, right? You're uncomfortable because they're dirty, dark people and they're okay with that. And that just goes against the grain of of humanity and decency and the families that are mourning the loss of these boys and so many other families who have kids that are killed.

[00:59:44]A >> and and Jennifer, I mean, I guess Ann Potter is answering my previous question. A jury trial would have hated her. I mean, she would have been convicted in 0.03 seconds. Uh especially if she didn't she did not take the stand. Uh if she had uh would have been over. But um I don't know. What do you make of that last exchange you're talking about? Get the mom. Get busy writing your book.

[01:00:08]Get ready for the plot twist.

[01:00:10]>> Get a ghost writer because you can't spell and you've had two years of life >> or memoir. Yeah. I I mean those are good those are good suggestions. But Jennifer, I'll ask you the same question. Why am I starting to really not only dislike her but really dislike the mom? And by the way, Steve Sherilla, you've got an open platform here. I would love to speak with you.

[01:00:34]>> Yeah. To me, it feels um almost like predatorial, you know, that there's this opportunistic is maybe a better word for it, but like praying on the media while we've got it so that it can do something for us when in fact two boys have been died have have died. their entire family's worlds are completely shattered. And as I understand it, also they haven't received an apology. I'd kind of forgotten about that element. That's that's another real telltale um observation about what's going on truly in her heart and mind that one would actually want to say their sorryries. I mean, be beyond that, I think uh a step beyond that is I think that they think the Sharillas think that they were wronged, that they got the the short end of the justice stick. Forget the apologies, right? I mean, they're incredulous that the daughter is imprisoned right now.

[01:01:38]>> Yeah. There's a there's a level of narcissistic traits that are just disgusting that come off, but it's like paired with this cluelessness >> and like this I'm always high on pot mentality and it's just such a dislikable family >> altogether like Yeah. I And you said, you know, who do we hate more? I mean, we used to hate the Kardashians the most, right? And now I kind of like them compared to this family.

[01:02:03]>> Yeah. In fairness, I didn't care enough about the Kardashians to hate them. But maybe um this is them now taking shots at the victims here if it didn't if it wasn't already bad. Here we go.

[01:02:16]>> The whole the whole family is just I can't get with it because oh my gosh, we just spent waiting. You spent every day with them and the things they said to you personally and sending messages of love and kindness and support and everybody.

[01:02:36]>> They would like fight for me and [ __ ] like >> Yes. I don't get it.

[01:02:40]>> We love you. You're safe with us. You'll always be part of our family. I don't get it.

[01:02:45]I don't get it. That's some that's a level of evil I will never ever ever understand because why? They didn't have to do all that. That doesn't make any sense to me.

[01:02:55]>> Or they could have just not even said nothing and then just like they could our side or some [ __ ] but no, they just wanted to be weird, >> right? Like you didn't have to invite us into your home and and your heart and say those things like that was completely unnecessary. That that crazy cycle level. That's crazy.

[01:03:14]No, what's crazy is you uh she just talked about how the family reached a level of psycho level. Um and and they and Dr. Leslie talking about the family and that level of evil. Your daughter murdered two other family members. I'm starting to lose my mind. Dr. Leslie, um starting to wish this person got a uh life without parole sentence here. Um, she's not she's not getting out, by the way. Uh, and definitely not getting out during our first parole hearing. I'd be shocked. And all they're doing is digging their own proverbial grave here.

[01:03:51]But how can they go to this extent referring the family as that level of evil? Um, how how can they go there?

[01:04:01]>> I part of me and you know, I've worked with criminals for 20 years. Like part of me wants to believe that this mom is being lied to and she's just that naive and she's not she's not getting the truth and that that the daughter is just that good at lying and manipulating her parents. But she's aligning with her so much that it's just hard for me to think that would be the full case. I mean they they are impassioned to have their story feel right. It's a cognitive distortion.

[01:04:32]They are not in reality with the rest of us and they're writing their 15 minutes of fame without thinking at all about the reality of the lives around them, the deaths and the future.

[01:04:44]>> Yeah. Uh for those wondering why you're hearing texts and or listening to texts and hearing uh these calls, uh since the documentary, um just a few days ago, uh the Strongsville, Ohio Police Department had a huge dump of like 23 or 33,000. I think it was 23,000 text messages and a whole bunch of calls. So, uh there's going to be stuff like this going on uh for for days. There was a text exchange.

[01:05:10]I want to get to a couple of the texts uh and thanks to the guests for indulging me on a Friday. But um Jennifer, to you from January 14th of 2020, this is before uh the horrific car accident. Um McKenzie, Charilla, and Dom, her boyfriend, are texting. She says, "I'm so effing mad." She uses the word McKenzie Sharilla. I'm gonna kill someone. I'm mad as effing whatever right now. Look, people say I'm gonna kill I'm going to kill you. Uh as a you know manner of speaking, but you have to go back now and look at some of these and wonder was she really meaning was the real intention to kill somebody at that point?

[01:05:56]I mean, do you go back and and how do you how do you know like to how do you decipher these texts? Now, >> again, this is where I'd be curious like how often that happened or was that kind of a oneoff um in terms of just kind of tracking the behavior to understand some of the seriousness of where she was at with that. But also, that's not that normal that somebody threatens that way. Um it's it happens, but certainly in um abusive relationships that are emotionally abusive, when we see a threat to kill that's verbal, that changes the landscape right away and raises the level of risk that serious harm will come to that woman.

[01:06:49]>> Uh Leslie, I mean, she's young and dumb.

[01:06:51]I'll give her the benefit there. Is there going to be a time uh because she's going to be in there for a very long time where she has a you know a proverbial come to Jesus moment and she says hey I screwed up here. Do do you see that happening with her?

[01:07:07]>> Um well I think that's the key to violence risk assessments is they are going to track her her insight and her genuine responses over time. And that's what these they're 60 100page reports from psychologists. So her engagement in treatment is one thing, but her actually demonstrating that she's changed and she's grown sympathy, empathy, insight, um if she does get a psychopathy test, all of that's going to be included. And then she's going to be put into these percentile ranks of likeliness to commit murder again, right? And the parole board's not going to let her out on the first try. Probably a lot of tries.

[01:07:45]She's already gotten several 115 violations. Imagine how much [ __ ] she's going to get into with that attitude and that lack of insight and that callous nature over the next 10 years. They're just going to keep adding time. And then people hate her so much. They're going to do things to her that are going to get her in trouble. Like they're going to order not hits, but they're going to order things on her to make her get in more trouble. So, I don't think we'll be seeing this girl in the world for quite some time. And hopefully they the mother can stop these ridiculous enabling phone calls and video chats with her because they're being recorded and shown to the world.

[01:08:24]>> Yeah, it's definitely going to catch up with her. I mean, there's no doubt she's I I don't wish prison justice. I'm not saying she's going to get shanked and killed, but uh someone >> There's a reality to that. It's >> someone's going to seek some sort of retribution on her just because she's so grading. Um, Heather Cooper Smith here with his super uh sticker. Thank you.

[01:08:43]Kelly Mclen. There were a couple of more in there. Uh, the girlfriend here, he said there's a volleyball court and a tennis court. We found out from um the former inmate that spent time with her.

[01:08:54]Um, Dr. Leslie just went black here, but hopefully she will reappear. I'm going to pop her out just so something crazy doesn't happen there. Um but uh yeah, right now she's in a medium security prison. We found out not in a maximum security prison. So uh I don't know why that is the case, but that is the case.

[01:09:16]Uh Jennifer, let me go to you from um back to January of 2020. Another text message. This has to do with selfharm talk. She McKenzie says um I effing hate myself. I'm ugly. and you speaking to Dom just add on to it and make me feel even uglier. You make me feel like I'm worthless. I do so much s for you. Um I just want to bang my head on the wall till I'm dead. Treat the girl who would die for you a little better. Again, saying I want to bang my head on the wall. That's ultimately essentially how her boyfriend dies. Uh him and DaVon Flanigan, who we never talk about enough, by the way. Um he was 20, Dom, uh 19. Dom was 20. Uh they literally died uh because of you know severe head injuries and here she is back in 2020. I want you bang my head on the wall till I am dead. Is this was this a seed of a thought in her mind already back then? not necessarily to inflict that, but on someone else, but even if she had like, let's say, suicidal tendencies, was was this already in her in her mind uh to do something to her head or someone else's head?

[01:10:38]>> I mean, I don't know what you'd say, Dr. Leslie. Maybe you'd have a better comment about this. I can't get in her head around that, but the continued threat is something that I would track as um a manipulative technique to keep drawing dumb back in. And then underneath that, of course, it could be a real cry for help where someone should be paying attention and this girl really needs some some medical help.

[01:11:13]>> Yeah. Um, there's another uh this is how I started the show, uh, Leslie, and then I'll get back to two more pieces of video and then we'll get final thoughts.

[01:11:21]Uh, August 13, 2021. So, we're getting closer to the, uh, moment of the crash.

[01:11:27]Um, Dominic Russo speaking to McKenzie via text says, "That's my bad, but you did threaten you did threaten to stab me in the eye." McKenzie says, "Yeah, I don't care." And Dom says, "You threatened to stab my eye or pour water on me." Um, I mean, these are then teenagers, but stabbing eyes and and pouring water. I correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, stabbing someone's eyes seems a little extreme. Uh, Dr. Leslie, what do you make of that?

[01:12:08]>> Oh, it certainly is. I mean, I can remember working inatient units, walking by and seeing teenage girls. They knew I was walking by their room and then they would just say to themselves, "Oh, I just want to cut my inner thigh." So, this [ __ ] wants attention. She wanted attention. I don't I don't Jennifer, I disagree a little bit with like the medical intervention or the cry for help. I don't know if it's because I feel like it's I feel like we're too far from there. Like there's just too much.

[01:12:37]I love myself. My [ __ ] don't stink. That like and it's been there for so long.

[01:12:43]And then you've got these parents who are just like bowing down to her since she was little. Um I don't know what the cry for help would be. I think it's more I like this [ __ ] attention. I want more of it and I'm just going to massacre the world until I until I want to stop. And that's the danger of this girl.

[01:13:01]>> Yeah. Um there is a very um haunting text uh Jennifer from uh 2022. This is like two weeks I want to say or three weeks before the crash. And Dom once again is trying to break up with uh McKenzie Sharilla. And he says, "Kenzie, you know, I love you, but I don't think we should be together at this point. There isn't very much time on earth." Uh he goes on and says, "I'd like to think we could stop fighting, but it's a breakup fight every week.

[01:13:34]Neither of us deserve that." He's kind of pleading with her, but I mean, it's kind of sad and and and just haunting that he says there isn't much time on earth. At at his young age, he already understood that. You know, this is something at in my 50s I think about all the time and my mom in her 80s thinks about it even more. But it was interesting to hear him text that. Um, you see a juxtaposition here between a guy who's got a maybe a bit more maturity or at least understanding of the world than his younger girlfriend at this point.

[01:14:09]>> Yeah. Yeah. Certainly. And I think also just it's an interesting phrase because it shows some awareness of life and beauty and how things could be which reflects what they are not for him right now in that moment. And it also strikes me as I hear that that in some ways it's this interesting tension where he has has to almost plead with her for the breakup.

[01:14:44]And that shows you kind of the nature of it that she is just not letting go. And he's probably scared actually of how to get rid of her. Um because there's no good way in these scenarios. It can be scary.

[01:15:01]>> Yeah. Um this is now um Steve Sharilla reacting to the documentary here. So we're going to hear from McKenzie's father. One more clip and final thoughts.

[01:15:13]>> Just we would get Mackenzie's story out or what happened to McKenzie and not necessarily what everybody's heard or what everybody keeps gleaming off of misinformation. Um, and I was I want to say I was promised that would be fair, but that's what that's what my illusion to what was going on that I thought they I thought they came to us um thinking that my daughter is a monster and that she did this and she's hell on wheels and she picked that road and blah blah blah, you know what the judge said. But I think after they started talking to us, I think we opened their eyes to, well, maybe there's something funny going on here. Um, and that's and And that's where I thought it was. And then when the it came out, a lot of the stuff we talked about just wasn't there, you know. Um there wasn't a lot about the fact that there's no evidence >> of premeditation um prior prior calculation or intent. It just it's not there. And and every troll online can tell me, "Oh yeah, she did it. She did it. She did it. She did all this." You know, and oh, she was speeding down that road and she didn't hit her brakes. Well, she didn't hit her brakes for 4.74 seconds of that ride.

[01:16:25]That's the only That's the only information they have. 4 point That's when the black box turned on about five or six seconds before she crossed Almea Road and before it went into the building.

[01:16:38]Uh there you go. Uh he he says something funny is going on here. No evidence of premeditation. Uh Leslie, you said it uh yourself. She apparently surveiled this area. uh prior to this and the 23 or 33,000 texts where a lot of them she's threatening his life. Uh how can he say there was no evidence of premeditation and it also went to trial. Uh what do you make of the dad here? And by the way, not hitting the brake for 4.7 seconds while going into a wall at 100 miles an hour is an eternity.

[01:17:14]>> Right? Like can your audience do math because I can't because that's why I'm in psychology. But the like what? 5 seconds at 100 miles an hour. Like yeah, okay. That doesn't mean anything. That means that she killed him on purpose and didn't push on the break. And in that moment, he didn't say that she had a medical emergency either. Their story keeps changing over and over. And I love how he almost like air quotes the judge.

[01:17:40]Like the judge made up the evidence.

[01:17:43]The naivity and the desire to believe their daughter who is turning out to be a very dangerous human being is incredible.

[01:17:54]>> Yeah. I mean, in fairness, uh, Jennifer, I will say that of the three family members here, the mother, the daughter, and the father, the father is probably the most likable because he comes across, you know, at least gives the appearance that he's thinking about it, you know, that he's thought about the case. I don't agree with him. on any of it, but what did you make of his uh uh defense of his daughter there?

[01:18:19]>> I mean, it felt really weak to me. I understand it's like it's very common, right, in the desperation of families in cases like this where they're going to support their loved one that's being thrown in jail. Um, also there's the added layer of a minor, which I think makes it more complicated.

[01:18:39]Um, but again, where are the other conversations that are happening with her around, hey sweetheart, maybe right now isn't the time that we should be talking to um, modeling agencies. Now might be the time where you actually ask for some help because you should be grieving. You should be taking this time to take care of yourself and to understand what happened.

[01:19:11]>> And that is exactly what we are going to see next is there's going to be a massive shift in these calls. She's going to say, "Mom, I'm trying to get therapy. They won't give it to me."

[01:19:21]>> She is going to be coached now. We are going to see the psychopathic traits turn into the person the world is saying she's lacking.

[01:19:29]>> Interesting.

[01:19:29]>> I guarantee you that over the next few months.

[01:19:32]>> Yeah. Uh, when the public opinion catches up, uh, you you definitely might be right. Here's >> Don't believe it. Don't believe it.

[01:19:40]>> Dr. Leslie giving you the heads up early. Um, here is a final clip where she's um either laughing or discussing something about laughing, but here we go.

[01:19:50]>> Ask for a private call. Do you think they're going to give me more than like 40 years? Because I'm thinking yes. I'm thinking I'm getting >> That's what I'm I'm I'm prepared for that. That's what I'm prepared for.

[01:20:00]>> Diamonds, can we get private coals here?

[01:20:02]like with a social worker.

[01:20:05]How do I talk to my lawyer then without like it being like public?

[01:20:09]>> I don't have a lawyer yet though right now. I fired my lawyer.

[01:20:14]I'm dead ass.

[01:20:17]>> It's not that you fired him. He's done.

[01:20:19]>> No, we [ __ ] fired him. I don't give a [ __ ] We fired. He's fired.

[01:20:24]>> They're acting like I killed like 85 people. Like I didn't kill nobody. Like >> you better keep up with my case when you go home.

[01:20:34]You can come to my court if you want. If you don't want to, we need you there.

[01:20:43]I'm dead as [ __ ] You funny as [ __ ] >> I don't uh I don't know. Troop. He's bald as [ __ ] and shiny and has a roll in his neck.

[01:20:55]like short.

[01:20:56]>> I have a girl and a boy and a detective against me. All right, Mom. I love you so so so much, Mom. I'mma um talk to you again. Uh what time can I call you again? Like call you my next time I come out?

[01:21:08]>> What time is that?

[01:21:09]>> I don't know.

[01:21:10]>> I don't know. Maybe around 9 after 9.

[01:21:14]>> Um Jennifer, you think this McKenzie is capable of love? You know, she when she tells her mother she loves her, she sounds about as genuine as a used car salesman. Is she even capable of loving her own mother? The COE loves her clips.

[01:21:28]We will play the final Kim Kardashian clip. Uh, I promise in a second, but is she even capable of loving her own mother?

[01:21:35]>> What I really hear there is kind of as Dr. Leslie referred to the attachment.

[01:21:40]It's like anyone that she can glom on to who is in support of her, she's going to use all the language that she knows how to use to maintain some support that feels good to her. So, in the end, it's really about her getting what her getting her supply of what makes her feel okay >> is how I'd read that.

[01:22:04]>> This is what goes on before, after, in the middle of the show. I only listened to 4 hours of jail calls today. Joel, play the clips.

[01:22:13]Uh, in many of the calls, the dad is in the background, but the mom often tells him he's too unfiltered and he can't be on the jail calls because people are listening. By the way, they are listening to all these calls. Um, and it's going to come back to bite them in the ass. We've seen that with everyone.

[01:22:30]Um, including the Adles. Uh, and they will do that. I truly hope the uh parole board, I guess, doesn't let him out. I truly hope the parole board gets to see the interviews and they will. They'll they'll know about it. But let me play Her parents just need to shut up already. I like that. Um, let me play this last. This is uh more on Kim Kardashian, who I'm sure is thrilled she's getting dragged into it. Here we go.

[01:22:53]>> It sounds like my mom was like, well, maybe Kim Kardashian scene and I was like, I hope yeah, maybe Kim will now that it's like all over. I was like, I mean, that's the only thing that might be good about the whole media thing.

[01:23:04]Maybe Kim will see it.

[01:23:05]>> I don't know. So, you have to figure out because I'm real nervous and I want Kim Kardashian to be my lawyer.

[01:23:11]>> Yeah.

[01:23:12]>> Don't smack and lift that. I wish I could be your lawyer, bro. I wish I I wish I was >> Kim Kardashian pass the baby bar.

[01:23:19]>> She's a lawyer. She gets innocent people out of jail.

[01:23:23]>> He does all the time. Kim Kim works hard.

[01:23:27]>> We're business.

[01:23:29]>> Who he is? Miss Kimberly. We're going to have her get you out, guys. And like and I will tell her I buy all her skins and I only wear skins. So you too.

[01:23:42]>> Yeah. Literally.

[01:23:44]>> Uh that is her talking to a friend. Um I was having a pretty good day. Um and now um I just I have a headache. I really do. I have a headache. Um and I feel like I need to go for a run, but I have a torn meniscus, so I can't go for a run. Um, I'll share everything. So, I'll share this. So, because I tore my meniscus, I like to go to the gym occasionally. I can't go to the gym. So, the COE does like a hot Pilates class. Let me tell you something. There's nothing more insane than a bunch of women in an exercise class. And I went with my wife two days ago. Um, and I I died after two minutes. I mean, I was dead. I can't understand what she's saying. Everyone's moving a thousand miles an hour. Today, I went alone and I felt like the creepiest I don't know if I can do it again. So, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I was going to say I it's it's in Miami. Just imagine a hot Pilates class in Miami. I'm the only guy out of like 30 women in a hot room where everyone is sweating and I just felt like I don't know, a convict or a creep or something. So, I don't think I can do that. So, >> if you were McKenzie though, you might have showed your tits to everyone.

[01:25:07]>> It's heated. I love Dr. Leslie. Uh, you Leslie, I'm going to get some hate mail from you, but I'll I'll take it gladly.

[01:25:15]Um, it's heated Matt Pilates. Insane.

[01:25:17]Best. Amazing. Maybe creepy if you're there without me. Yeah, try to go with me. I I I really can't do that. Not to mention, I'm dead like laying on my back. Um, and by the way, when you sweat like that, um, I I can't see anything.

[01:25:31]Like I literally am just spending the entire time like trying to get the sweat out of my eyes. But, uh, don't let them fool you and say that women are not, uh, tougher than men. They are much tougher.

[01:25:41]Uh, so now I need to find something else to do. But on that note, um, >> you just covertly sneak in there with your mat and a pair of glasses or goggles.

[01:25:52]>> Yeah. Or wear a wi wear a wig or something. I don't know. Oh, I have to do something. But, um, this was an interesting show. Uh, I'll put it that way. Um, I told Joel he can just sit there and sweat so he doesn't actually have to work out. Um, yeah, I will try that. Uh, Jennifer Tamasic is an expert on coercive control. She's an expert witness. Uh, and uh, we are glad to have her here to help us um, in this situation. Is this I guess by the way, where I heard you say realization. Are you a Canadian?

[01:26:25]No.

[01:26:26]>> Oh. Are you in a What's What state are you in? Because I >> It's funny. So, I'm actually I'm in California, but I did live in Australia for a number of years. And so, every once in a while, people think I have a little southern draw, which I think is a leftover from many many years back.

[01:26:41]>> Um, do you I mean, do you define this as a what was their relationship as a coercive relationship and your final thoughts?

[01:26:51]I really see elements of that happening.

[01:26:55]So as I kind of described it in the beginning, you know, like it seems like and I think I actually heard some stories around, you know, part of the tactic of isolation. It can happen in many different ways. It can happen that you just kind of trap the person, but it can also happen where the individual makes plans and then you thwart those plans or you throw issues in there such that they don't make it to the event, right, with the family. And I remember hearing Dom's sister actually speaking to this pattern where when Kenzie was with Dom that they were often very late or couldn't show up somewhere because she was still getting ready or something about her. Um that was a little element around that. the threats of course um and even the degradation I mean there at moments they definitely were not kind to each other you know she's kind of degrading him and threatening him um so it does seem like there was something going on there in that dynamic like I might call it um that there were elements of coercive control at play Um interesting. Uh you've got uh true crime BB here. Uh everyone consider there is a petition online change.org.

[01:28:24]The COE can put it into the show description uh for a new law that would be named in honor of uh Dominic Russo who was killed uh the ex or one-time boyfriend I should say of Mackenzie Sharilla. Uh Dr. Leslie Doppson, you gotta love her. Um, she's pure, she's honest, she is definitely can't accuse her of not being authentic. Um, Dr. Leslie, once again, let everyone know where we find you. And then, uh, let's start there.

[01:28:54]Uh, follow my YouTube. I really want to grow it. I'm going to start doing long form content in the mind of monsters and predators so that we are not prey to people like McKenzie. Uh, and then >> what's your what's your what's your handle there? Uh, on YouTube.

[01:29:07]>> Oh, yeah. That's good. See, I'm not like a business person. Uh, it's just Dr. Leslie Dobson.

[01:29:12]>> Dr. Leslie Insta and I know she's on TikTok. Um, >> yeah.

[01:29:16]>> So, you heard McKenzie Sharilla there say uh one of her calls is from a a 43 year old guy who says, "Hey, if you want to chat, who is that dude?

[01:29:26]>> Who who's the guy reaching out to her who's 43 wanting to have conversations with her? Who is that person?" Leslie Dobson and your final thoughts. That is somebody who wants to see her boobies. Yeah, >> it's not for intellectual stimulation.

[01:29:44]>> I highly doubt it. It's masturbatory stimulation.

[01:29:47]>> It's not because he wants to discuss the philosophy of life and existentialism.

[01:29:53]>> No.

[01:29:53]>> No, >> it's definitely not. Uh my final thoughts, um this is going to be a roller coaster based on how the media portrays it and how the parents and McKenzie and the lawyers manipulate the audio that gets out.

[01:30:06]>> There you go. Uh, huge thanks to Jennifer Tamasic, Dr. Leslie Dobson.

[01:30:12]Maybe I'll get Karm to come on Monday cuz I I I am curious to hear what she has to say. It will be interesting. Uh, she is a licensed therapist of more than 40 years. Everyone, have a great weekend. Uh, I'm going to go home and I don't know, take Advil or something or scratch Fred's and Ethel's armpits to relax me or I don't know what. But have a good weekend. Love you, California.

[01:30:34]Love you, Strongsville, Ohio. This is Dom Russo, no longer uh with us. And Dave Flanigan uh who was 19, no longer with us. But Mackenzie Sharilla uh only seems to care about the uh bun on top of her head and uh how many uh newspapers she gets into. So uh McKenzie, if you're watching, and I know you are because you're on that tablet all day, uh maybe think about somebody other than yourself. Be kind. Don't murder anyone.

[01:31:00]We'll see you next week, everybody.

[01:31:01]Guest, stick around one second.