Why "If the Bible Is True" Fails as Logic | The Best Of The Atheist Experience

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]But the first caller this week we have Andrew in Fresno, California with with a topic that he swears has never ever ever been discussed on the show ever. And that actually makes me nervous because if there's something that's never been discussed on the show, is it something that needed to be discussed on the show?

[00:00:16]Cuz there's I can think I could name something that's never been discussed in the [laughter] Atheist Experience.

[00:00:21]And we shouldn't be talking about it.

[00:00:24]We've never talked about my left pinky toe toenail on the show until right now, but it's not relevant. But let's see what what Andrew's got. How you doing, Andrew? You're on with Don and Matt.

[00:00:34]I'm good. How are you guys? Doing well.

[00:00:37]Hello.

[00:00:39]Yes.

[00:00:39]>> Hi.

[00:00:42]Can you hear us?

[00:00:43]>> Can you hear me? What Yes, we can hear you.

[00:00:45]>> Yes, I can hear you.

[00:00:46]Good. Okay.

[00:00:48]Hi.

[00:00:49]Um I Well, you know, you brought up the fact that I said it was never discussed on the show, which is the topic of morality, which has been, but I'm going to just take it We're going to go down a path here that I don't believe has ever been done on this show, okay? And I want to start off with a couple of questions, and we can all participate in this if you guys are willing. And the first question is, do you have a moral code within yourself? Without a book or a law or anything written, do you have a moral code that's within you?

[00:01:25]Well, being as being as charitable and colloquial as I possibly can be, if it in the sense of within me, does my brain have a collection of things that I view as a moral code? Yes. How about you, Don?

[00:01:40]Yes.

[00:01:42]Okay. The second question would be, have you ever broken that code in your life from the time you can remember, as far back as you can remember, until today, have you ever broken that moral code that you have within you? Many, many times.

[00:01:57]Yes. Many, many times. Probably probably can't count the amount of times.

[00:02:02]I don't I won't say it's like astronomical, but I have no interest in counting. I can just say, "Yep, it's happened more than a dozen times easily."

[00:02:11]All right. Okay, so now um the third question would be, are you in control of yourself, your actions as a person and with your mind and your uh physical ability? Do you have control over yourself?

[00:02:28]Is there such a thing as you? Yeah, I'm not completely clear how to answer [laughter] that question because it it borders on the notion of free will and whether or not one could have done otherwise, but I, as far as I'm aware, have as much control over myself and my actions as any other individual in history.

[00:02:47]Okay. Okay, so then what we need to do is we need to take the evidence that's available to us. Okay, so there's tons of stuff that we can look at, but one of the things I do want to look at is the Bible because it's available to us and it makes some claims, okay? And the claims that it makes are um all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It also says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

[00:03:17]Right? Can we pause for a second? God also Can we pause for a second?

[00:03:22]Uh Yes. Why do I care about sin?

[00:03:26]Sin is not >> I know I understand. Sin is not just I've done something immoral. Hang on.

[00:03:30]So, sin is not just merely I've done something that violates my own moral code. Sin is specifically doing something wrong against a god. And so, if the Bible says, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God," A, I don't care about sin and B, I don't know how an assertion about falling short of the glory of God is relevant because my moral code doesn't include a god or give a about what a god thinks.

[00:03:51]>> Right.

[00:03:52]But I want to finish one more statement.

[00:03:54]It is It also says that he will have a new covenant with his people, which is he's going to write his laws on their hearts and in their minds.

[00:04:05]Okay? So, God established laws in our hearts and in our minds. That's what the Bible's claiming. That's what God is claiming. I I I recognize the Bible's claiming that, but it's clearly not true because the Bible allows for slavery and my moral code does not.

[00:04:20]Okay, hold on. Hold on though. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's focus on our covenant. Let's focus on us.

[00:04:26]>> have a covenant. You don't have a covenant. You can't have a covenant without Let's focus on us. Let's focus on today today and us. Let's only focus on today and us, okay? I was When you started talking, when you started talking, I wasn't focused on anything other than today and us. You're the one that went back to antiquity with ideas instead of talking about what a god wants. Let's stay focused. Let's stay focused on that. I I Hang on. Hang on.

[00:04:49]No, no, no. [clears throat] No, Andrew.

[00:04:51]You're coming off as kind of obnoxiously smug and I know that's not what you're intending because I'm not the one and neither is Don who ever moved this conversation beyond us right now. It's you who did that. So, when you do that and we address it, it seems disingenuous for you to suggest that we need to stay focused on now and us when that's what Don and I are doing and you weren't.

[00:05:16]Okay, I will. I will. I will. I'm sorry.

[00:05:19]I apologize. But let let's let's take it further now. Let's let's go to the next step. All right. So, the next step is if we have a code within us, which I do and I've failed it, I've broken it, and Don has one and he's broken it, you have one and you've broken it, now let's take a Let's observe that. Let's Let's make an observation. The observation would be that humans break the moral code that's within them, okay? And that's a a general statement, but within ourselves personally, we can say that that's correct.

[00:05:54]So, secondly, we have to take a look at that even further and say, the question is then, what source or what force or what is there, what exists that's causing me to do another action other than what I want to do? So, I know that it's wrong, but yet I do it. And even if I try not to do it, I do fail at at it. And so, what is it that exists?

[00:06:20]Yes.

[00:06:22]I don't know why you're looking at it in the terms of what is this force that causes us. The fact of the matter we are human beings, we are not perfect thinkers, nor are we perfect actors. We have emotion, we have needs, we have desires, we make mistakes. It is our own nature. When we set up a code, when I have a moral code within me, which is something that I spent a great deal of time thinking about. It's not an answer to everything. It is a It's so it's not just like a list of things. It is a list of some things that are a result of a process, and it's the process that matters. What I'm looking for there is an ideal. The fact that I don't always meet that ideal says nothing more than I am an imperfect being. That occasionally I'm going to do something that isn't ideal. I don't There's no force required to do this. It's already part of who I am. If we were perfect, we wouldn't have needed a moral code in the first place cuz we would never make mistakes. The moral code is what we put there as the ideal, the goal that we are trying to achieve so that we have something to strive for to better ourselves.

[00:07:28]Correct. But, the fact is that we cannot fulfill that code. No, no, no, no. How do you How do you think that's a fact?

[00:07:37]The fact that we have messed it up doesn't mean that it's impossible for us to I could I could create a moral code right now that would be very easy for me to live to.

[00:07:46]Yes, correct. Correct. But what I'm discussing here is the one that you have within you. So, even even though you didn't write everything down. You didn't write everything down and you didn't make a list, but you have something that guides you. There is something in you that guides you and helps you to understand what's right and wrong. You keep going to this there's something in me.

[00:08:09]And and that's incredibly fuzzy language. I have thoughts about morality that are subject to revision based on better thoughts and better information.

[00:08:18]The only The only way that it's in me is the same way that thoughts about butterflies are in me.

[00:08:25]Correct. Okay. That's fine. I'll take that statement from you. But But what I'm saying is this.

[00:08:32]Well, you can put it to the test and see if it's possible to live your life without breaking that code, okay? That's the test you can do.

[00:08:44]I'm I'm really desperate Andrew for us to get anywhere near a God thing or something remotely relevant. If you just called in to say human beings aren't perfect and you can test this, I mean now we're wasting a lot of time on something that's basically a tautology.

[00:08:59]All right. So, So let's just Okay. So then then what I'm saying is this.

[00:09:06]Since we have things in our world that we can see as evidence or something that might be true or might not be true, such as the Bible, the Quran, Buddha, all these other religions. Okay. We have these things that we can look at. We can read them.

[00:09:20]We can study them. And And they're giving us these statements. And the statement is you've sinned. You've made mistakes. You need forgiveness, right?

[00:09:30]There has to be a some type of justice for those mistakes that were made. And we even as humans, we we fulfill that justice, right? No. No, sir. Sin is an evil concept.

[00:09:42]There is no guarantee of No, no, no.

[00:09:44]What I'm saying is the wrongs that you've done. The wrongs that you've done. No. Yes.

[00:09:50]There is no guarantee of justice.

[00:09:53]And what you're saying here Okay.

[00:09:57]I'm I'm trying to to I've We've let you talk and talk. I'm trying to let you get to the point that you're trying to get to.

[00:10:04]So, can we get there?

[00:10:08]Okay. You keep on You keep wanting to say, "Look, it's true that we fail, and this book tells us we fail." Well, you know what else that book tells me? That book tells me that it's okay to own slaves as long as you don't beat them within a day. That That That book tells me that >> to an old covenant. Stop interrupting me.

[00:10:23]>> back to an old covenant.

[00:10:24]>> Andrew, stop interrupting me.

[00:10:28]That book tells us sanctions slavery.

[00:10:29]That book sanctions genocide. That book sanctions for groups of people to take the young virgins and girls and keep them for themselves. That book sanctions women as a second-class tier of person.

[00:10:42]If If a book tells me some things that are true and some things that are not true, what use is the book? I figured out what was true and what was not true irrespective of that book.

[00:10:51]Okay, so you were you were a Christian, right? Once upon a time.

[00:10:57]Okay. And so, as a Christian, you understood that there was an old covenant and a new one, right? Yes, and now I don't give a about either one of them because there's no demonstration that there's actually a god to have covenant with. So, why are we You wanted to keep this about us in the here and now. Why do you keep going back to antiquity?

[00:11:13]You You did. You brought the >> is going to torture you if you don't follow him.

[00:11:17]>> No, Andrew. I did not go back to that.

[00:11:19]You brought up the Bible and the Quran, and I pointed out that they are in conflict.

[00:11:25]Okay. So, okay, if you want to look at scripture then, which you You're you're brought it up. Okay. okay, okay.

[00:11:33]Okay, hold on. Hold on. Let's just get to Let me just make a statement. I'll just finish with a statement, all right?

[00:11:39]And the statement is and I'm going to say if if because we we're not sure of anything, right?

[00:11:46]That's your that's what you've said.

[00:11:48]We're not sure absolutely positively sure of anything. Absolutely sure. Okay, so let's just say if the statements of the Bible are say are true, which is that we've made mistakes, we've broken that code of of morals and we need forgiveness for that, then we all three of us are guilty and need forgiveness. If that statement is true, then we can admit to ourselves, yes, I've broken the code. Yes, I have a morality within me that I've broken and I would need forgiveness if God exists.

[00:12:22]At least we can go that far with the statement. And not not to say that God exists on your part, but you can at least stop and think about that and say Holy man.

[00:12:32]>> Shut up, man.

[00:12:33]Holy [laughter] Do you literally think that in the entire history of the show nobody has ever ever ever discussed the fact that if we have if God is real and we have broken God's law that we need forgiveness. Do you Do you remotely think that's never been discussed on this show? Not the written law. Not the written law. I'm talking about the moral code within yourself that you automatically know. My moral code within myself does not match up to the Bible at all. Not one I mean incidentally. But do you think for a second what you just said is if the statements in the Bible First of all, you suggested we stay with us with the here and now, but you keep going back to the Bible. And what you just said cuz I typed it was if the statements in the Bible are true then we have failed and need forgiveness.

[00:13:18]Then we could admit to ourselves that we need forgiveness from God.

[00:13:22]Now, do you really think that nobody in the history of the show has called in to suggest that if the Bible is true and we acknowledge that we have not lived up to it, we need forgiveness.

[00:13:34]What I'm specifically speaking about >> a yes or no question.

[00:13:40]Do I believe that that's never been discussed? No. Then what is it that you think you're presenting that has never ever been discussed? And before you answer it's not just that it's never ever been discussed, it's that this line is this is a garbage argument.

[00:13:55]Because the the argument begins with if the what the Bible says is true well, hang on.

[00:14:01]The Bible says a lot of things. So, let's say the let's say just for the sake of simplicity, the Bible says 10 things and eight of them aren't true.

[00:14:08]Does that tell us anything at all about whether the other two are true or not?

[00:14:15]No, I'm specifically speaking about what you know >> And and if the Bible and if the Bible says 10 things and we can identify two of them as true, does that tell us anything about the other eight whether they're true or not?

[00:14:29]Well, we would have to determine what's true and what's not true, right?

[00:14:32]>> fact that the Bible says two things that are true tell us whether or not the eight other things it says says are true or not?

[00:14:39]No, it doesn't. Right. So, when you start off your argument with if the Bible if what the Bible says is true you are now just creating a tautology.

[00:14:48]That if the Bible's right about this and the Bible's right about this, then we should be accepting or looking for forgiveness for for our sins.

[00:14:56]That is a tautology.

[00:14:57]>> Okay.

[00:14:57]>> And so, your entire argument your entire argument is circular. And do you think this is the first time somebody's called in with a circular argument?

[00:15:06]Let's Let's leave the Bible out of it completely.

[00:15:08]>> I tried to leave the Bible out of it for a while. Unless Don has something else to add to that.

[00:15:12]Unless Don has something else to add to this. The thing that I'm going and I'm going to let him The thing that I'm going to leave out of this conversation, Andrew, is you.

[00:15:20]Go ahead, Don.

[00:15:22]Why do I need forgiveness from an invisible mass murderer?

[00:15:29]Why do you need forgiveness?

[00:15:32]From an invisible mass murderer.

[00:15:37]Um okay. If you want to view God as an invisible mass murderer, you can. That's your choice, but that's not who he is.

[00:15:47]Really?

[00:15:49]>> [laughter] >> Can we Is Is he visible? Does God exist, Andrew?

[00:15:56]What's that? Does God exist?

[00:16:00]I believe he does. Is he visible?

[00:16:05]No, he is not. Has he killed people?

[00:16:08]Lots and lots and lots of people.

[00:16:13]Does God have the ability to give life?

[00:16:15]Do you believe that God killed lots and lots of people?

[00:16:20]Do you believe that God has the ability to give life?

[00:16:22]>> believe that God killed lots and lots of people? I don't believe that God exists.

[00:16:26]I don't believe he has the ability to give life. I'm asking you, you believe that God exists, you believe he's not visible, do you believe that he killed lots and lots of people?

[00:16:36]Yes.

[00:16:37]So, when Don calls him an invisible mass murderer, every everything that you just agreed to affirms that, right?

[00:16:45]Not Not murder.

[00:16:47]Oh, why is it not murder? Oh, it's because murder is a specific legal construct and not just killing. So, Don should have said an invisible mass murderer.

[00:16:58]Yep, I stand corrected.

[00:17:00]>> Well, you you're looking at something that exists, which I believe is God, that is not limited to human traits, all right? And you're putting God down in this small little box as a human. When he died >> I'm not. No, I'm not. If No, I'm not putting God down in a box as a human.

[00:17:21]Yes, you are.

[00:17:21]>> You you are willing to excuse God from any moral culpability for the actions that you think he did.

[00:17:28]Not correct. That's not true. Okay. So, in your view, do I have the right to kill Don whenever I want?

[00:17:37]Can you bring Don back to life?

[00:17:40]I That's not the Did I Did I ask a question? Is that an answer to my question?

[00:17:45]>> Are you going to answer my question? If you're not, I'm hanging up on you.

[00:17:49]No, I answered the question. No, you didn't. I said, "Do I have the right to kill Don whenever I want?"

[00:17:56]No. Do Does God have the right to kill Don whenever he wants?

[00:18:03]God has the ability to kill or give life.

[00:18:06]>> have the right to kill Don whenever he wants?

[00:18:11]Only justif- justif- >> Goodbye, Andrew. Every time I ask you a question >> not true. That's not true.

[00:18:18]Every time I ask you a question, you deflect and go off on to something else.

[00:18:22]You want to clarify?

[00:18:22]>> and no. No, you didn't. Go back to the audio. You did not, in fact, do that.

[00:18:30]Well, Don, it's invisible mass slaughterer.

[00:18:33]Yes, thank you.

[00:18:34]>> And perhaps fictional invisible mass slaughterer. Well, but that puts the burden of proof on us, right? Well, it it is I would argue that something is, in fact, fictional until what has been demonstrated to be non-fiction. That existence is the thing that needs to be demonstrated, not non-existence, because how could you demonstrate that? This is This is just establishing the default position.

[00:18:57]So, yeah, there's a call we've never ever had in the history of the show.

[00:19:01]Never ever ever has somebody suggested that if the Bible is true, you and I should repent.

[00:19:07]Yeah. You know, me for being a a a jerk a a smug dismissive um um foul-mouthed um Oh, what's what's a what's another word?

[00:19:19]I can I can throw in a whole bunch.

[00:19:21]Well, don't forget, Matt, that if we're if we don't repent, we're going to get tortured.

[00:19:25]>> Yeah.

[00:19:25]>> [laughter] >> Isn't that fun? God God loves you so much.

[00:19:31]>> [laughter] >> It's wild. We have uh