Alex O'Connor Claims Mormons Have More Evidence Than Christians?

Ajouté : 2026-05-06

[00:00:00]the New Testament, we're told sometimes that all of these disciples died for what they believed in. Of course, we have absolutely no evidence that any of them died for their faith except for James who James the brother of John that is that's mentioned in in Acts as being beheaded by Herod although we're not told why. And Trent has said in the past that okay, we don't know that they died for their belief historically at least.

[00:00:19]Uh but we do know there's a video that you made Trent where you said well because of the death of their of their leader Jesus was put to death. You know that they must have been living in fear that a similar kind of thing could happen to them. Now, whatever you think about the death of Joseph Smith, you could say the same thing about him.

[00:00:32]Don't you think his followers might also be a little bit concerned that they're going to suffer under the same kind of violence, especially given how persecuted they were being uh by the US government and state governments. And yet, the expansion rate of the early Mormon church is the same as the expansion rate of the early Christian community. This is fascinating. Alex Okconor debates Trent Horn on whether or not if Jesus did in fact rise from the dead.

[00:00:58]And this is a fascinating take because he brings up Mormons and how if so many people witness Jesus resurrect from the dead, why don't you believe in the Mormons who say that they saw these angels and they're witnesses to these angels who gave in the the Book of Mormon and all of this stuff. So, it's amazing. Let's dive into it, guys. This is a wild conversation. Here we go.

[00:01:23]>> Well, why didn't people go and ask about the the Mormon transfiguration experiences? Perhaps because if you read George Quch Canon's account, it's not clear who these people are. I mean, people often say this. They say, you know, those 500 people, some of them were still alive. So, you could have gone and checked. How he's going to like walk to Jerusalem, which has tens of thousands of people at minimum in it, and just Jesus appeared to 500 people.

[00:01:43]We don't know that Paul was there. He probably wasn't. He says he's passing down something that was passed on to him, which says that it's an early creed, but we're not quite sure where that creed ends because Paul inserts himself at the end of it. But we don't know where he's heard it from. We don't know who these 500 people are. We don't know why they were gathered. We don't know how many of them believed. We don't know if any of them recounted. We don't know anything about this kind of event.

[00:02:01]I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying that compared to something like the events of the transfiguration of of Brigham Young from someone like outside of all of this who has no vested interest here really. I see them as equally plausible, perhaps more plausible in the case of Mormonism because that happened in the 1800s and we have at least one eyewitness account >> that says uh that he saw it directly. We don't have anything like that for the gospels. The only eyewitness account that we have for the resurrection of Jesus. The only one is Paul who did not see a bodily resurrected Christ but saw a flash in the sky and heard a voice which is not the same kind of thing.

[00:02:38]>> Trent, I'd love to hear your response to two things there. The first being this broader comparison with Mormonism and secondly this idea that Paul didn't believe in a in a physical resurrection.

[00:02:49]>> Sure. So let me start with Paul. I would say that Paul being a Pharisee was firmly committed to the idea that resurrection is bodily. When we see in his letters he is dealing with the Corinthians, he's dealing actually with skeptical people. People at that time didn't necessarily believe everything that was pitched to them. So in 1 Corinthians 15, he's dealing with people who can't even believe there's going to be a bodily resurrection or what is that going to be like? And I think many people when they hear about this, they think, "Oh, I'm going to be a zombie."

[00:03:17]like the the skeleton gets out of the ground and the flesh is drooping off of it. Like who who wants to have that?

[00:03:23]Paul is saying, "No, you're not going to be that, but you're not going to be just a disembodied spirit either." In his letter to the Corinthians, he's very clear when he says that we do not, he compares being a disembodied spirit to being naked without clothes or naked outside of a tent, a condition you don't want to be in. rather when he says like in Philippians 3:21, Paul says that God will change our lowly bodies to conform to his glorious physical body. So he often talks about being not being clothed with immortality, having a physical body that is not limited by the physics of this universe. So for example, like you don't have to be a ghostly presence to walk through walls.

[00:04:03]Technically speaking, in a physical body, you're mostly empty space. If you think about the space between atoms and electrons, if you had omnipotent control over your, now you can't walk through solid substances because of nuclear force. But if you had a bit more control over the universe, you could pass solid objects through one another through a kind of >> true. Anything's possible with God. But yeah, I'm trying to think. Did Pharisees believe in the resurrection or Sadducees and like bodily resurrection? Did Pharisees believe in resurrection.

[00:04:43]Yes, the Pharisees strongly believed in the resurrection of the dead, a key theological distinction that separated them from the Sadducees who denied it.

[00:04:50]They taught that at the end of time, God would reunite the souls of the righteous with their bodies to live again after link to final judgment and reward.

[00:05:00]Fascinating. Yes, Pharisees believed in the resurrection. Caiaphas was not a Pharisee. He was a Sadducee. Got it. And but he he did the the procedure of burying himself like a Pharisee. So which is fascinating because they saved his bones and stuff like that.

[00:05:17]>> Amazing. Uh if you will. So I think those descriptions uh showing that Jesus has a physical body like eating fish, showing I'm not a ghost. I'm not a spirit. I am the inauguration of the resurrection which was unheard of for Jews at that time before the end of the world. That's striking that they proclaim Jesus rose. Not just that he was in heaven, not just that he was in Abraham's bosom, that he rose. The the reference to Jesus or when Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, he uses that as a semitism, a a Jewish way of speaking about the world, worldly things, things that are merely material cannot inherit the kingdom. You have to be spiritual. So we often think of spiritual like a substance, but spiritual also means an orientation.

[00:05:58]Like if I say the Bible's a spiritual book, it's not going to pass through you if I throw it at you. So I would say that when it comes to Paul, I I think we have what >> manifests the movement of Christianity, this radical proclamation of the resurrection that I would say makes the most sense with an a an encounter with the risen Jesus that could be cross-cheed by seeing, for example, that his tomb is empty. Like if I like if I had a friend, in fact, actually I gave a eulogy once for a friend who died when she was 19 years old. I gave the eulogy at the funeral that night. I had a dream. She sat at the foot of my bed and we talked and it felt really, really real. But I woke up and realized, okay, that's just a vision. And in the New Testament, they talk about visions, a vision in the night. They know the difference between visions and seeing someone. But if I saw that in the in broad daylight, I go and dig up her casket and if it's empty, I would have had questions. Now, when it comes to Mormonism, I appreciate Alex getting into this. I know a I know a little while ago, Alex, I feel like the Mormons were like, "Alex is almost here. He's ready to be Mormon. Have a lot of that.

[00:06:56]>> Yeah, that that that happened a lot.

[00:06:57]>> I saw a bit of that and I was like, "Wow, if if you knew Alex's take on things like young earth creationism."

[00:07:03]Why don't you get Alex's take on the Mormon view of history? I think he's going to be much more skeptical of that.

[00:07:09]I think this is important, though. Why?

[00:07:11]>> Yeah. I don't even know what the Mormon's young earth history is. What is that? Mormon creation beliefs. Mormons member of Church of Latter-day Saints believe God the father through Jesus Christ created the earth by organizing pre-existing eternal matter rather than created out of nothing. The creation was a deliberate staged process spanning six distant periods of days rather than literal 24hour days. Organization not creation from nothing. Mormon theology holds that matter and elements are co-eternal with God. Oh really? meaning they have always existed and cannot be destroyed. God organized this chaotic or pre-existing matter. A concept known as creatoria.

[00:08:01]Jesus Christ as creator under the direction of the heavenly father. Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth. Spiritual physical creation. All things including humanity, animals, and plants were created spiritually by God before they were created physically.

[00:08:14]Purpose of creation. The earth was created to provide a place for God's spirit children to receive physical bodies and undergo a period of testing and progression which is vital for their ex for their eternal salvation >> about Mary and Zatune. I I think and I don't want to drone on and on. I I'll get to this but there there's a lot to respond to. But I think Alex, you would be sensitive. Many skeptics when they look at Christians are probably saying, let's make sure we're on the same page here. Look, if you're going to follow evidence, that's all fine and dandy, >> but I want to see that you are following it consistently. Yes. If you're car if you're carving out special exceptions for what you believe and then you're dismissive of all the other stuff, well, now you see where where I'm coming from.

[00:08:57]So, I think that's where that's the challenge in defense. I think that's at least I'm seeing that more now. The challenge is all right, let's follow your standard, your standards of evidence that will only show Jesus's resurrection and Christian miracles, but not necessarily non-Christian things, although I will. So you is that a fair summary of that?

[00:09:15]>> Oh, yeah, for sure.

[00:09:17]>> Okay. So my reply then and I think this is getting back to what I said earlier about um like evangelical apologists that are frequently engaged in this or other Christians. There are some Christians who hold to a view that's called in Christian theology there's a debate between cessationism and continuationism do divine carrorisms do miracles happen after the apostolic age and there are some Christians who say no that's all frauds the miracles ended with the death of the apostles and then there are more Pentecostal Christians who say well no god still performs miracles and as a Catholic we're certainly continuationists we have saints that have been proclaimed to do all kinds of different miracles and I would say with pretty good evidence behind several of them. So, we would say, well, no, there's no reason to shut that off. So, I think that some people who defend the resurrection, they're very, very skeptical of paranormal or postappostolic miracles when they shouldn't be. Now, I don't believe all of them. I think some have bad evidence for them or insufficient evidence.

[00:10:10]>> Yeah, that's fascinating how people will just completely deny anything spiritual happening in today's world, but in reality, the entire Bible is spiritual.

[00:10:22]It is the supernatural. So many people are like, I don't believe in all that supernatural stuff. And then I'm like, well, do you believe in the resurrection? Do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin? Do you believe that God created the heavens and the earth? Do you believe that he rose again in three days? Like, do you believe Jesus healed people? Everything about that is supernatural. How we were saved is supernatural. Likewise, when it comes to non-Christian religions, I think that God could perform miracles or signs or wonders among non-Christians. And that could still be harmonious with Christian theology. Yes. Because God because God loves everybody. So if a if you know a Buddhist prays in the middle of a flood to be saved, God might miraculously save her because he loves that person. He loves her without necessarily endorsing the truth of Buddhism. The problem I think that you might raise is you might say, "Yes, that's all fine and dandy, all fine and good." Uh but what about these things that appear to be miracles, right, that appear to endorse a competing theology? So when I would look at miracle claims for a competing theology, there's two options here. One, I could say that there's a natural explanation that we're overlooking. Two, there could be a a supernatural there.

[00:11:35]There could be a supernatural malevolent explanation uh you know that's demonically inspired. Now, one might say that's kind of are you going to say everything that's not you is a demon?

[00:11:44]That's kind of a copout. I mean it says in the last days there will be many coming in my name. Jesus warns says take heed that no man deceive you nodding that many false prophets will appear leading to a great falling away. 2 Thessalonians 2:91 says mention says lawless ones whose whose coming is accompanied by signs and lying wonders sending a strong delusion to those who refused to love the truth like that could be a possibility what if that is the reason it's a good explanation I think I think that we can apply tests to see is the message driving people away from, you know, true theology about Jesus. Now, with Mormonism, I'm kind of on the fence about this one, Alex. I It could be I think there are very compelling natural explanations for many of the things you brought up. And I think some of them it could there could be demonic explanations or it could be both. Maybe it started as a hoax and the devil kind of runs with it like in the the case you gave the case you gave about the transfiguration. I mean, it sounds a lot like people could be, you know, really, really enthralled with a religious speaker at an event. They're at essentially a rally type atmosphere where you're already religiously primed for a speaker and they're talking about how, oh, you sound just like him. You know, it's like I have Shawn McDow here and he maybe he could give a a talk at a at a evangelical church and they're like, my goodness, Sean, I saw your dad Josh on stage when you were talking. It was just like him. And it's like, well, he's a lot like Josh. probably true. And then, you know, it kind of that that's that sounds a little bit different than me than saying, "Yeah, my rabbi that was crucified 3 days ago and put in a tomb, we saw him. He he was eating. He appeared to different groups of people."

[00:13:35]So, I I So, that example I don't think is as compelling to me. The other examples I think there's really way more disalogous elements between the resurrection claim and Mormonism. I could briefly run through than we could unpack. Like I said, I don't want to go too on, but you you threw a lot out there. So, a few elements there. One, the people who saw the golden plates, that doesn't do much for me. They could have been natural artifacts. In 1843, there were people who created a hoax set of plates called the Kinder Hook plates that Joseph went to went to engage and read. So, natural >> he went and read and put this in the entire Book of Mormon, these hoax, and no one talks about that >> artifacts. It could have been hoaxes.

[00:14:17]I'm not as impressed by that. the three witnesses who saw the angel when when you look through there's a lot of discrepancies it seems like they had to go and Joseph led them out there remember he's already trying to convince them of this whereas with the apostles all of them are starting with a blank slate Jesus is dead what do we do Joseph is trying to to convince these two people one of them Martin Harris who is financially backing this endeavor and so >> has some skin in the game on this of this and so they're praying and >> Martin Harris was financially backing this part of Mormonism. Like, here's the thing.

[00:14:53]People say, "Yeah, the Mormons were all crucified. I mean, not crucified. They were persecuted. Like, they had so many laws against them, pushing them out of their state. But the leadership still had a lot to gain. Like, he was running a cult. He had all the things that he could ever want in that position.

[00:15:15]>> Praying a lot in order to see something.

[00:15:18]I I I think that's very different when it comes to persecution. I'll leave on this point. I agree with you. People are willing to take risks for rewards. So, Joseph Smith took a lot of risks. And I think though from his perspective, there were rewards he was seeking. He became a a political leader in Nauvoo. He he planned to run for president. He acquired multiple brides, some of them being underage, as young as 14. So, we have a we had a television show in the US 20 years ago called To Catch a Predator and and I saw in that show men were willing to take many many many risks for underage girls. So, I I'm not as I'm I'm not as surprised that he's going and then when when Smith was arrested and put in the Carthage City Jail, he was not like a martyr led to the led to the slaughter. He he had a handgun smuggled into the jail and when when a when when a gunfight broke out, he shot back. That's not quite what Jesus and the apostles did. I did not know this. No one ever says this. No one ever says this. He had a gun smuggled into his jail and he shot back. And yes, he tried to escape by jumping out of a window and then he ended up dying. But that is that's a legitimate delusional person, I think, trying to escape.

[00:16:39]Wow. So I I I grant you there's going to be similarities in any religious claims, but for me I think it's very disanalogous. And also for me when it comes to Mormonism versus Christianity, I would say with Christianity, we don't have really any evidence that says we've got counterbalancing evidence that this contradicts what we know about the world. Most of our evidence is just, well, can we believe what they said about Jesus? We're not making that's why like I'm not a young earth creationist for example because I think it contradicts what we know about the world from science. But the problem is I think Mormonism makes those kind of claims about ancient Israelites being the progenitors of Native Americans and a lot of other things that contradict what we know about the world. That sets the probability of it being true much lower than we have of Christianity. Alex, one of the things that Trent brought up is the idea that uh Paul was a Pharisee, that the dominant conception of resurrection in the ancient world was a a physical one. You know, people were expecting to get their their flesh and bones back. So, I wondered what you made of that objection.

[00:17:40]>> Yeah, sure. I I will answer that. I promise. I just I I must take a moment to respond to what Trent said just then, but but I I I do want to get back to the New Testament. I think that's that's very important. I don't want to talk about Mormonism all day, but I'm I'm not just going to talk about Mormonism.

[00:17:53]doing it to draw a comparison. So, specifically, a few things that Trent said that I pulled out. Firstly, he said that you got to remember that that the people that Joseph took out to see the plates were kind of, you know, they were like expectations. They were sort of trying to trying to make them believe it. Trent believes that Jesus predicted his own resurrection. And maybe the disciples didn't fully understand what was happening there. But the idea that this sort of comes out of the blue, I think, is is not entirely true. He also said that Martin Harris, one of the one of the first witnesses to the angel and the golden plates, uh, was financially backing the project and so would have a vested interest. Well, who was financially backing the ministry of Jesus?

[00:18:28]>> We're told in the gospels it was the women. It was Mary Magdalene who is the first woman to see the risen Jesus according to >> Wow. But she wasn't like financially backing like a normal person though.

[00:18:40]>> So again, a direct narrative link there, I think. Also the point about Joseph's death uh yeah like quite the shootout. I don't think that martyrs need not put up a fight. I mean it's not like Joseph was being killed you know for the it's not like he was being asked to recant or something and he refused and took death for that reason. He was just of course he had a message to spread. He was trying to annex Texas to make it a sort of he was running for president to annex Texas and make it into a Mormon paradise. You know he's got things to do.

[00:19:04]>> I think he had wanted so much >> he wanted all the fame and pleasure like he they weren't doing it. He was to say he was getting persecuted is is a stretch because he had so much to gain.

[00:19:18]Yeah. And it was risky, but he had so much to gain, which is a wild thought.

[00:19:22]>> Shot back. And I've heard Trent say before on the point of the martyrdom of the apostles to bring it back to the New Testament. We're told sometimes that all of these disciples died for what they believed in. Of course, we have absolutely no evidence that any of them died for their faith except for James who James the brother of John. That is that's mentioned in in Acts as being beheaded by Herod. Although we're not told why and Trent has said in the past that okay we don't know that they died for their belief historically at least but we do know there's a video that you made Trent where you said well because of the death of their of their leader because Jesus was put to death you know that they must have been living in fear that a similar kind of thing could happen to them now whatever you think about the death of Joseph Smith you could say the same thing about him don't you think his followers might also be a little bit concerned that they're going to suffer under the same kind of violence especially given how persecuted they were being by the US government and state governments And yet the expansion rate of the early Mormon church is the same as the expansion rate of the early Christian community as Rodney Stark famously pointed out. As for the physicality of Jesus, it's not something I want to die on here like this this I I don't want to sort of there's there's a joke in there about a hill. But I do think there are a few strange things.

[00:20:27]Firstly, >> you you could try to die on it, Alex. We won't be dead forever, my friend. That's how this thing works.

[00:20:31]>> One hopes. Well, when I see you again, it will be interesting to to try and high five and see what happens. I think there are a few mysteries in this for me. The the first is like okay so so so much of this relies upon Paul who I think is at best unclear about the physicality of Jesus. I mean like Trent has just defended Paul's use of the word spiritual in a way that would like spiritual body. He also just to be clear you mentioned Philippians I think it's chapter 3 where where Paul says you know we will sort of uh take on a new body just like Christ and you said Christ's physical body. The text doesn't say that. It says body but it does not say physical body just to be absolutely clear. Right. I understand that the use of the word body there probably means something corporeal to most readers, but it's not clear. In the same way that Trent hears the word spiritual body and says, "Well, Paul kind of meant this."

[00:21:14]When I hear the use of the word body, I can say, "Well, you know, they kind of mean this." My reading is that I I just kind of don't really know about the nature of the resurrected body. That's from Paul who never actually met the risen Jesus. This is the thing. This is the key thing. Where can we go to find accounts of what the actual risen Jesus was actually like? Well, there were no eyewitness accounts. there are at best even if you okay if you agree with the traditional authorship of the gospels then maybe there are two right but like what is the nature of some of the post-resurrection experiences that we're that we're given I mean firstly that's just the problem that our earliest gospel doesn't have any at all uh and the fact that as the as the dates get later for the gospels the stories get more and they also get more fanciful and they also get more theological >> so you're referring to Mark's gospel there where there's an illusion to an appearance to Peter in Galilee but we don't have that appearance narrated >> that's that's right I mean Mark's gospel Well, at least the earliest manuscripts of Mark's gospel end with the women fleeing, afraid, saying nothing, which is sort of in keeping with with Mark and themes about, you know, cowardice and and and going away. Uh there's lots to be said about the empty tomb. Maybe we can get on to that in the third section or something. But I think Trent Horn did an amazing job pointing out some of the discrepancies of the Mormon theology. It doesn't come anywhere close because at the end of the day, the disciples really didn't know what Jesus was talking about. They constantly were talking about the fact that they thought he was going to be dead. They did not have any hope. They were not expecting him to rise from the dead. Mary Magdalene was not expecting the body to be gone. And I think that's a weak argument to say like, oh, she was the one funding everything financially backing, but I just don't think that's the case. So, I think there's amazing evidence for Jesus rising from the dead way more than the Mormons actually do.

[00:23:01]So, it's very very fascinating. I think that Joseph Smith had so much to gain.

[00:23:06]Did he die trying? Yeah, there's lots of people who start cults die trying. They get sent to jail. I just reacted to the Mi. He's going to jail for lots of terrible things. Is it because he's being persecuted or is he actually doing terrible things? That's the reality.

[00:23:27]So, anyway guys, thank you so much for watching. And I encourage you to hit the like button and subscribe if you haven't.