DLC Bookclub - SHADOW OF THE TORTURER by Gene Wolfe - Chapters 21-27

Added: 2026-05-10

[00:00:09]and you need an escape from reality.

[00:00:13]Open up those pages and sci-fi or fantasy, whatever genre you'll join a book club cuz you won't read on your own. Join a book club so you'll be held accountable. It's just a mean but you're doing it with your friends.

[00:00:34]So join the book by DLC.

[00:00:38]Hello there book clubbers. How you doing? Hope you're dancing in your seat.

[00:00:43]I you know I started dancing and I immediately felt it in my neck. I've been I've been doing some dancing lately. Lana Bashinsky. I uh I we didn't have a a show last week cuz I flew to Chicago to see Bruce Springsteen and the East Street Band in Chicago. And then last night I went and saw incredible show, The Midnight. One of my favorite bands >> uh here in Denver. So, I've been my my neck has been getting a little groove. I hope I hope everybody out there has also been dancing. How are you, Lana?

[00:01:13]>> Oh, I'm doing so good. Excited to be here. Excited to talk about some wacky wacky book. Uh and uh mostly thank you for your patience everybody. Uh while we uh have have lives that we live around the book club.

[00:01:27]>> Indeed. Yeah. I I thought we could fit it in and then it just didn't work out as I was traveling and so we had to skip last week. But we're back. We got episode I mean uh chapters uh 21 through 27 of Shadow of the Torturer to dig into. But we like to start the show with a non-spoiler topic sent in by you to DLCfeedbackgmail.com.

[00:01:51]Love getting those topics. Interesting one here comes all the way from New Zealand. Uh Steve from New Zealand writes into DLCfeedbackgmail.com.

[00:02:00]He says, "Uh, hi Jeff Lana. Thank you so much for carrying on with the book club over these years. Thank you for introducing me to Molassin, my all-time favorite series. Also, how amazing was Wednesday Wars? I enjoyed The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet and I'm finding The Book of the New Sun completely engrossing. This regular reading ritual is a new part of my life that I am consistently grateful for. I have been thinking about non-spoiler topics and I don't believe this has been discussed previously.

[00:02:32]Uh, I would have said I was relatively cynical about self-help books as a genre, but actually looking at my shelf, I see a number that would fall within that group that I found genuinely beneficial for my own education and growth. The Mindful Parent by Shirley Past uh Pasto I would credit with radically changing my parenting for the better. Factfulness by Hans Rowling has helped me see the world in a brighter light. Why Do I Do That by Joseph Berggo is a fascinating look at psychological defense mechanisms. Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller was a wonderful read at the time that helped me move away from a strict religious upbringing. And you know what? I unashamedly quite like what Breen Brown has to say. Do you seek out books of this nature? And do you have any that had a mild or profound impact on how you see the world? Steve from New Zealand. Thanks, Steve. Uh, interesting topic. Self-help books. I don't know if we've talked about this before, but worth digging into again. Lena, what uh what hits your bookshelf or mind?

[00:03:42]>> I've read a number of self-help books through mostly through uh like app work like leadership style book clubs.

[00:03:50]There's a few that I've opted into here and there. Uh it's to me I'm wondering where like where does the line of self-help uh stop versus other things. I think it's like psychological and but I when I think of self-help books like the things I most opt into are like this row of books right here on my bookshelf which is all of my they're more like textbooks from when I was in art school but they are kind of like a book you'd pick off the shelf for like how to draw people. Uh yeah, >> and uh it is a particular skill that you are helping, but for some reason my mind always goes there because I've read very few >> self-help books that I would like cleanly put in that category. But the the one that comes to mind that I really enjoyed, not because I particularly felt like I I learned something from it, just because the topic that it's about I think is something that comes fairly naturally to me. But I think the book is genius.

[00:04:52]And I was very against reading it because I thought it was had a scummy name. And the name was How to Win Friends and Influence People.

[00:05:01]>> Oh, sure. Yeah.

[00:05:02]>> It's like the the classic self-help book for people who want to be influential and like be leaders and right, >> you know, be the guy kind of thing. But upon reading the book, I discovered that the title is strategically targeting people who think that you have to win friends and influence people in order to get ahead in your life.

[00:05:24]>> Right?

[00:05:24]>> The opening to the book immediately is like if you think this is your attitude, then I'm so glad you're here because that ain't how you have good relationships with people and that's not how you be a good leader. And the book sort of continues on from there and is very interesting and is written I forget exactly when the book was written, but it's quite a bit older. So, the language is a little bit funny. Uh, and then there's random aides from the author about like his dog getting struck by lightning and like it's like a it's a wacky little ride, quick read and genuinely good advice for, you know, people who want to get out there and and make lots of buddies and be sort of an effective networker in a a workplace capacity. So that's I've I'll tell another story right after this, but that's like my my core reasons I've used self-help books is like for arts education, but specifically like how to do thing, which feels like a self-help kind of book and sort of leadership >> books. What about you, Jeff Canata?

[00:06:26]>> Well, uh that's interesting. I you know I think you know becoming a parent uh you are one or me uh dives into you know a bunch of like don't screw this up books uh because parenting is just so daunting and overwhelming and terrifying and uh so I think you know I I had read a number of self-help things in the past but really when when I had kids it was like okay now I'm going to read these you know mindful parent was one of the ones And um I think there's a lot of wisdom to be had in in some of these things. I have like I have a book over there uh that I got. I think it's called something along the lines of like how not to raise an [ __ ] or something like that. Um, and uh, I have found, and you feel free to disagree with me, but I have found that most of the books that that are in the self-help category at the bookstore, uh, are like three or four paragraphs of really useful stuff surrounded by 200 pages of anecdotes and stories and illustrative examples and fluff is what I would consider. it.

[00:07:40]>> Yes.

[00:07:40]>> And I and I think there's like condensed like nuggets of kernels of wisdom in there, but I find the process of reading self-help often frustrating in that it just feels padded out to a whole book when it could have been a pamphlet. You know what I mean?

[00:07:59]>> Yeah. I feel like it's it's one of those times where I have to sort of step outside myself and be like, "Oh, I don't find these anecdotes useful." Because I immediately understood. But knowing that a lot of people seeking self-help outs, it doesn't come so naturally. You're like the way that they understand things requires that.

[00:08:15]>> But it is one of the things that ends up really frustrating me about the books.

[00:08:18]One of the especially if reading leadership books, there's like >> so many that are fluffed out to a full book length with like namedropping like quotes of like as a great leader. I hung out with Steve Jobs. He said, "Oh my gosh, I'm like I get it that you're like trying to like legitimize this, but I feel like there is a straighter line between what you're saying and what you want me to learn from it." And it is not filled with your ego that is like punching me in the face at every turn as I read this >> driveth me crazy.

[00:08:54]>> Yeah.

[00:08:54]>> Yeah.

[00:08:55]>> Yeah. I mean I I got a you know there was a period in my life when I like when I was in college and I was really you know in acting school and I was really trying to wrap my head around who I was as a person and I would read you know stuff like Deepo Chopra and you know he's very problematic figure now but um those like I I got really into spiritual stuff and you know books that I don't necessarily think are technically self-help tend to be more uh I I glean more from them like something like Zen in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Have >> you read that?

[00:09:30]>> That's so good. Uh I liked it a lot at least. But you know, it's more uh allegory than strict self-help. It's not like instructional. It's more >> and even something like molassin like you can it changes you, you know. I think just profound art that is about something can kind of work as self-help, you know, even more effectively than like here's the seven steps to get a, you know, this or that. You know, it's it feels to me more >> when I'm engrossed in the work itself rather than >> looking for like a strict recipe, you know, >> something that's like so engaging that it it causes me to ponder and reflect.

[00:10:17]>> Uh I find that is a better way to even find it applicable versus the just like the step plan of being like, "Okay, now I have to find an opportunity to use my steps." It's like, wow, what an amazing story of like a compassion triumphing in the face of of >> right >> challenge.

[00:10:38]>> When can I do that? When have I felt challenged and compassion is the is the solution to the problem.

[00:10:44]>> Yeah, that's >> and I think it it is that is that old adage of like making the reader do a little of the work, you know? It's like it's not it's not just a recipe that I read and hear stories about how it worked for people. It's literally this is a tale that is, you know, using these concepts and I'm pulling them out and and applying them to myself and doing a little bit of that heavy lifting myself. I think that tends to work better for me. But, you know, these books tend to be like, here's the seven steps. Boom. Okay, here's a chapter for each of the seven steps.

[00:11:16]We're just going to restate them, you know, more.

[00:11:23]It's like I didn't need to read a whole book that I got one more time.

[00:11:26]>> I got it on the one page that you listed the seven steps, you know, like I got that. Anyway, >> yeah, there's Oh, go ahead.

[00:11:32]>> I was just going to say I appreciate Steve's uh question here and the books he points out are I think um you know, I love the fact that it worked for him and there are things I've read all the Malcolm Gladwell stuff and like there's there's stuff to be gleaned from that, but I don't know. I don't I'm not drawn to that stuff necessarily. Yeah, there's a bunch I'd rather talk with somebody who's read it, >> if that makes sense. Like, oh, I do want I'm interested in what's in there, but I want to talk about it with people I know versus somebody else. There's like >> ones that I am interested in that I haven't checked out. Atomic Habits is one that is really, really popular. I I I don't know if that's considered like a self-help book, though. It's more like a >> a a philosophy for how to build habits.

[00:12:17]So, I guess that's self-help.

[00:12:19]>> Yeah.

[00:12:19]>> Um >> the As we're talking I'm realizing my dad actually wrote a self-help book that I love.

[00:12:25]>> Oh, really?

[00:12:26]>> Yeah. It's called Ordinary Guy Extraordinary Marriage.

[00:12:29]>> Well, there you go. There you go.

[00:12:30]>> Ordinary Guy Extraordinary Marriage. Put that one on your list, everybody.

[00:12:34]>> Yeah. I I mean, I liked it because it was very even insightful about my own parents' lives.

[00:12:41]>> That's incredible.

[00:12:42]>> But, uh yeah, it's uh it's it's pretty funny. The only other self-help book anecdote if I haven't told you this but I'm kind of embarrassed about and depending on who's listening sorry. Um when we started the book club I was like this is going to be my chance to start a good readads account and finally be like these are books that I've read so that when we're on the show I can even I can add wrecks from people in the in the comments and I can finally keep track of things. I got as far as like making the Good Reads account and like liking some books that I've read previously and that's about it.

[00:13:18]>> But for like the two weeks that I opened up the app at all to try and track things, I had a friend talk to me about a self-help book that is specific to game development that I read and had some good like like a lot of self-help book kind of things. had a lot of good stuff in there that was like baseline knowledge and then a lot of things and a lot of language throughout that I really took issue with. Um, and I went to the Goodreads page for it and I was like, nobody has even said anything about the way that this author sort of expresses things and I like people got to know what's up. And I expected to be not that I wouldn't say this to somebody and I thought I was very fair in my review, but I wrote a pretty intense review for like I think honest critical review of the book and submitted it being like and now I'm reviewing. Look, I'm a real Goodreads champion. Uh things I didn't know. I'm the only person who wrote a review. My full name was listed on the review. Not like my username.

[00:14:29]>> Yeah, >> just Lana Bashinski says and being the only one. I don't know if the author owns their own Goodreads page for their book, but I can only imagine that it's like of everybody one review. It looks like I made a good readads account just to write this review and I have done nothing with it since because it probably says when my good readads account started and it was like days before I wrote this review that is just like a pretty direct criticism of a book and if you Google my name you can find that I'm a game developer and I just feel like this person if for whatever reason is listening I'm sorry but I mean it too.

[00:15:09]I mean it >> I thought you were going to tell me that you got a response of like >> I checked for a while and then I it gave me so much anxiety thinking about this person like just stewing on it or like I don't know how they would respond so I haven't heard anything yet but I had to put it out of my mind or I was going to go insane.

[00:15:26]>> That's funny. That's funny. Well, now you're going to get a bunch of people googling that to find what you said.

[00:15:32]>> Yeah.

[00:15:33]>> Amazing. Well, thank you Steve for that topic. If you have a non-spoiler topic that you'd like us to discuss, please don't hesitate. DLC [email protected].

[00:15:45]All right, let's jump in to chapter 21 of Shadow of the Torer.

[00:15:52]Spoilers starting now. Uh, chapter 21 is entitled The Hut in the Jungle. And guess where we are? We're in a hut in the jungle. Uh, climbing up a ladder.

[00:16:01]>> We're in the botanical gardens. That's right. which >> freaky freaky gardens. Lana >> freaky gardens. I will say from in Edmonton, Alberta, my brain is picturing the the Mutark Conservatory, which is like a uh gardens that are separated into different biomes that you can go enjoy, but they don't turn into like an endless expanse uh you know, hollow deck garden situation. I think I had a crazy thought about it that I've since put out of my mind, but there was a a brief time when I was reading this section that I was like, maybe this is the real world and the gardens are actually portals to different spaces and people go crazy thinking that they go on forever because they actually have been warped to another planet.

[00:16:48]Well, certainly what happens inside this hut in the jungle would lend credence to that theory because it is it it it doesn't seem to make any sense.

[00:17:00]>> I mean, >> yeah, but even with that theory, it doesn't make sense. But but please continue. Give us the >> So, uh we have uh Searian and Aia climbing this ladder. Uh they get into a building that is an ancient seeming building and inside there are three people. A woman, a naked guy and a other guy. Uh and the woman is reading this book to the naked man and the other guy is kind of standing staring out the window listening. None of them seem to even be aware that Searian and Azia have entered the room. uh they they just kind of carry on as they go.

[00:17:44]>> Searian sort of describes it as that the guy looking out the window who was outside the hut and previously looked at them and went and ran inside >> as almost like when you know somebody's ignoring you and like having like the little flicks out of the corner of the ride to sort of see if you're still in their periphery.

[00:18:02]He describes it as it seems like the willful ignoring of them and just sort of maintaining this facade that they don't see anything.

[00:18:11]>> Yes. Uh but they seem to be sort of people of a different time or of a different culture or you know it it's it really feels like Searian is watching something that is different from the world that he is in.

[00:18:30]>> Yeah. Uh and they he describes at one point uh something very similar to an airplane uh but he uh here it's a it's a strange uh description but it sounds like an airplane when when he's like we have spaceships but I saw this like old timey flying machine >> like with propellers he's like there's It was like it had these bulges under the under the wings of normal >> I have the quote here. He says uh into view came the strangest flyer I had ever seen. It was winged as if it had been built by some race that had not yet realized that since it would not flap wings like a bird. In any case, there was no reason its life like a kites could not come from its hull. There was a bulbous swelling on each argent pinion and a third at the hull. The light seemed to glimmer before these swellings. So, it's like it's like a guy who's never seen an airplane before being like, "This is weird.

[00:19:36]>> Look at that ugly flying thing."

[00:19:38]>> Yeah. Look at those strange wings. Why does it need wings? Can't it just have space propulsion?

[00:19:44]>> Yeah.

[00:19:46]>> Yeah.

[00:19:47]>> Uh and I mean, the reason they even look up as they're they're in this jungle, this guy and the conversation that they're having, the woman is reading to the naked guy. I forget immediately when it happens, but he mentions the plane and the the guy is the one who looks at the window and they're like, "The forest is so dense. There's no way you can see something in the sky, but Searian looks out and sure enough, there's like one little peak sneaky peeky through the the foliage to to see all the way up to the sky and see this plane go by."

[00:20:16]>> And the book that she's reading seems to be sort of biblical almost. It's like uh you know, it's almost like she's um a missionary or some sort of um person, you know, reading to a a native uh in some way. And I don't know what to make of any of this, frankly. Um it was interesting, but >> you know, the story is odd. Um >> yeah, >> you know, it like Searian is is kind of baffled by it, too. So I think we we sort of secondhand are baff at least I was baffled by it.

[00:20:59]Um >> and Eggy is like this is so boring. It's like what you do in school or what are you on a field trip? Let's go.

[00:21:07]>> Let's get out of here. He's like no no no. I want to listen.

[00:21:09]>> Yeah. This is interesting.

[00:21:10]>> I read this chapter last week and I wish I went back and gave it a reread to be like what what really happened? But eventually, as they're talking, the woman's telling the story to the naked guy, but the naked guy and the other guy eventually end up recognizing the fact that Searian and Aia are there being like, "You didn't feel the house shake."

[00:21:30]They're talking to the woman who's like, "What are you guys talking about? She doesn't seem to be aware." But the other guys are aware that they arrived. That that means something. Uh he I think he's describing Searian as death and doom.

[00:21:44]And I can't tell if that's because of his stature in looking like >> the otarch and and like Techla in the way that he does, however they describe him as this giant dude or because of his cloak or both.

[00:21:58]>> Um, but he they do point out that they're here and being like, "Didn't you feel the house shake when they arrive?

[00:22:04]Death has come."

[00:22:06]>> And then Aggie is like, "Sneeze, let's go."

[00:22:08]>> Yeah. I love her. She's just like, "This is boring." And uh >> how am I supposed to scam you if you're here doing this boring stuff?

[00:22:17]>> My favorite is is Searian's like what what was that all about? And she's like her line is I didn't build this place, Searian.

[00:22:26]>> Yeah, >> I don't know. I just brought you here. I don't know. Um >> because the other thing she said is that people get trapped in there. So that my other thought was that these people >> like came into the jungles and then just never left. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:22:44]>> And and uh Searian is reminded of the story about being trapped in the mirrors of father's you know hall of mirrors. So there's is this this sense of, you know, things not being what they appear or sort of being trapped in this alternate reality that's messing with your mind. Yeah. I wasn't sure what to make of all that. And then they say they say something about the tool tooli is coming. Takalashi.

[00:23:16]>> Takalashi. Yeah.

[00:23:17]>> The tak I have no idea what that is, but everybody's freaked out that the takalashi is coming.

[00:23:23]>> All right. Um, >> that was that was I'm like, "Okay, >> all right.

[00:23:27]>> I'll talk I'll talk to Jeff about it."

[00:23:30]>> Yeah. And then there's this chant that they do about somebody coming, you know, for them. Uh, yeah. Super surreal, super weird. Um, and then, you know, they kind of just leave.

[00:23:47]Uh, because, you know, Aia is like, "I got to get out of here." And S's like, "All right, fine, fine. Let's go."

[00:23:52]Uh and uh they um uh they the chapter ends, they leave, they go into the garden of endless sleep, which is the next area.

[00:24:06]>> This is like this creepy bog or like marsh. It reminds me of that scene from Lord of the Rings >> uh with the with the bog people underneath the thing. Um >> that was exactly my thought.

[00:24:20]>> Yeah. Uh, and this is where you come to go get the flower for the duel. Yeah, >> the avern >> um and uh Agie is like, "Hey, Searian, uh, there's people buried out here." And he's like, "What? There's no grave markers." And she's like, "Oh, no. They're buried in the lake." Like they they stuff lead weights into their throats to weigh them down into the lake. and they go to the bottom of the lake. Uh, and then this little like little old guy rows his boat out to he's like, "Hey, hi guys. Let me tell you the story of my life."

[00:25:03]Uh he's he's a little boat man in a tiny little skiff and he's out searching for his wife uh who is has died and is buried out here but he and he has a little map of where she's supposed to be but she's not there cuz evidently the dead rise and move.

[00:25:21]>> It's very fascinating because you're like, "Oh, they bury the dead here."

[00:25:25]You're like, "Oh, that's interesting."

[00:25:26]And they're like, except sometimes they're not dead and sometimes they're not buried.

[00:25:31]Yeah.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. They're they float away. They rise up. And I'm like >> immediately I'm like, is there science here of like what exactly is this lake made out of? Is this water? Is it actually lead? Does this material dissolve the lead? It also mentions that you can at any point in time go supposedly and find the person who was buried. Uh they give you the map of where they are so that you can like verify. something we would want to do like you know I want to visit grandma >> to do with plots you know but >> yeah I guess but it's a little creepier when it's >> but they preserve the bodies the whatever the water is preserves the bodies so that they don't rot away and you can be like see we look the same or like whatever you want to do to go back and like check >> look I pulled her up >> exactly so it's uh it's pretty gnarly >> it's gnarly and they the the the one phrase that totally stuck in my brain was describing the water as brown as tea.

[00:26:31]>> Yeah.

[00:26:32]>> Oh, >> icky. Icky. But this guy, you know, it's kind of a sad story, right? His wife died. All he wants to do is find her.

[00:26:41]She's not where they left or they told him they sank her. And uh Searian is like, "Hey, can we like get a ride on your boat?" He's like, "Ah, it's way too small. Way too small. If the boat, you'll sink the boat. can't can't have a ride on my little skiff, but I know another guy bigger boat down the way.

[00:26:59]>> He get you.

[00:27:00]>> He'll get you over there.

[00:27:02]>> So, um >> and they're like, "Well, we'll let you know if we see your wife." And he's like, "All right."

[00:27:08]>> Yeah. Thanks. And meanwhile, Ada is like, "I'm not waiting for you idiots.

[00:27:12]I'm walking." He's like, "We can't obviously can't fit in the boat. I'm out of here." AND SAVIOR'S LIKE, "WAIT UP.

[00:27:17]WAIT UP." And he's walking along the marsh and he slips and he falls into the bog water.

[00:27:22]>> Mhm. Uh, >> and he's like pulls himself up on the side of the marsh, realizes he's dropped his awesome sword.

[00:27:31]>> Terminist.

[00:27:33]>> Yeah.

[00:27:34]>> So, he dives back in for the sword and the water is, you know, he's heavy.

[00:27:41]He's got his cloak >> mantle. Yeah. All his stuff on.

[00:27:46]>> He He's like kind of drowning again. We get another kind of drowning moment with Searian. And the the chapter ends as he reaches out for the sword and a hand grabs his wrist, pulling him downward.

[00:27:59]>> Mhm.

[00:28:00]>> But then we start chapter 23 and somehow the hand now is pulling him upward out of the water and he thinks it's Agia.

[00:28:10]It's not. It's a different woman with wet blonde hair. She's even younger than Aguia. She's all muddy and she doesn't speak >> at least initially.

[00:28:24]>> Interesting with there's definitely something topsy turvy going on with him in water cuz you know just the times that he was underwater in the past it was like oh I saw a giant woman >> I saw I'm wondering >> goddess. Yeah >> a goddess. Yeah, I'm wondering if I you know this my first thought was if if Dorcas is like the we'll find out her name in like a moment. Uh is like this my first thought was that this woman is like sort of whatever that goddess is that spirit going into a dead body and sort of flipping things around to save him for whatever reason.

[00:29:06]>> I think it's that dude's wife. That was my other thought >> cuz his her name is Cass and this is Dorcass.

[00:29:13]>> Oh, >> right.

[00:29:16]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:18]>> Do you think that it is just his wife or >> I think it is his wife died when she was young and she's still young. I think she's literally like undead >> his wife.

[00:29:29]>> Yeah. Cuz like why do we get this dude's whole backstory about looking for the wife and then this like muddy dead woman pulls him out of the water. I think it's and and it's he calls her Cass, my wife Cass.

[00:29:44]>> And this is Dorcass.

[00:29:46]Do you think that she this is just where she's been Roman or do you think that some kind of water or bog goddess is also like >> revivified her in some way the door >> feel like there's some supernatural something going I mean obviously she's undead but I think there's like >> maybe the sword itself >> somehow I don't know maybe just searian going into the water like triggered something and you know because he's been searching for the wife so it's not like she's just been around.

[00:30:21]>> You know what I mean? I think there's something that triggers her coming up from the water and >> what's in the middle of the sword again?

[00:30:29]Is it liquid lead? Is it the same as the bodies?

[00:30:32]>> It's It's not lead, but it's like a >> Yeah. liquid metal that is Yeah. that weights it down. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:30:39]>> But um Yeah. And so she initially doesn't speak, but then this other dude shows up. People just like arrive in this novel, you know what I mean?

[00:30:50]They're just there.

[00:30:52]>> Hey, I'm here now.

[00:30:53]>> Yeah. You want breakfast?

[00:30:54]>> Kind of what happens. Uh Hildigrin, this this other dude shows up. You're like, here's my business card. And it's just such an odd like we're in the trippy bog cemetery and this guy's like, "Need any excavations? Here you go." Oh, you know, um, >> sure, I can give you a ride.

[00:31:15]>> Yeah, >> I'll see you a nettle.

[00:31:16]>> He's such an odd dude. It's It's a very strange thing, but yeah, he's clearly the other boatman that the old man was talking about, but he's also a professional excavator.

[00:31:28]Um, and he's a he's kind of a got a got a weird vibe to my mind as well, where he's he kind of feels sketchy in a I don't know. Everybody that shows up just feels really like they've got an angle.

[00:31:42]Uh I don't know.

[00:31:43]>> It feels like I can't tell if it is I mean it's interesting cuz that's like the searian edge sort of Bambi outside the Citadel, >> right?

[00:31:54]>> That everything feels like it's potentially lethal and odd.

[00:31:58]>> Yeah.

[00:31:59]>> Uh so >> but also he's like never concerned about it. And I don't know if that's just because Searian is telling this tale.

[00:32:07]than everyone else.

[00:32:08]>> Well, that too. But also, Searian is telling this tale much later in his life where he has survived all this. So, is there just this tinge of like, well, nothing. I didn't die, so there's no reason for me to express that I was worried about being >> But it just feels like he's he's literally heading into a duel to the death, >> you know, just like real.

[00:32:33]>> Yeah.

[00:32:34]>> Even that I mean, uh, the moment that it happens, being, oh, do you know what this means? Oh, that means you got to have a duel now. Is like >> to the death. But >> it's not a small thing when you're like I'm one of us is going to be dead. I know he >> deals with death all the time in his job. So maybe that's part of it too. But like >> I feel like you know against an opponent whose skill level he has no knowledge of you know like this guy can totally own you in the duel. But I also feel like if somebody walked into your house like walked your door right now and gave you a seed and said, "You are going to have a duel to the death this afternoon. You got to be there."

[00:33:16]Would you not be like, "What?"

[00:33:18]>> I guess. But he goes, he goes, he finds the >> You and Go.

[00:33:25]>> You show up at your duel to the death.

[00:33:28]>> I've got to know who's trying to duel me to death.

[00:33:32]>> Wow. I guess so. I mean, you go get the death flower and make the make a whole day of it.

[00:33:37]>> I would at least go and like if they're like, "Oh, you have to do have a duel to the death with a flower." I'd be like dubious about the flower thing. But like, wouldn't you like go and at least try and sneak a pick of like who's trying to duel me?

[00:33:51]>> I guess. I don't know. I think I'd be more worried than Searians and you seem >> because it's so absurd. I feel like why would I believe that that's true? And if you're a searian and you're like, I have a sense of honor. I guess I'm >> being duled to the death. It's like he's subscribing to societal rules and he's also a naive baby Bambi out in the world getting >> right >> getting scammed by Agia.

[00:34:18]>> Totally getting scammed. And but he's also Yeah. A part of it is like the hot chick wants me to do this so I guess I'm going to do this.

[00:34:23]>> I fell in love instantaneously.

[00:34:25]Where do you want to go? Anywhere.

[00:34:27]>> Yeah.

[00:34:28]>> Duel to the death. Let's go. except the like delecta garden or whatever that one was called. She's like, "If we hurry up, we can go to the sensual meadow." And he's like, "I'm busy staring into the desert." And she's like, "I know. I like how I like how she clearly has regrets that she fished this guy into this scam." She's like, "Ah, this idiot. Oh my god." Yeah.

[00:34:54]Uh anyway, so they get into Hildigrin's bigger boat. Uh and uh he's given him some rundown of like this cave that has an oracle in it who the oracle like consults with the Atar.

[00:35:09]Uh and Searian's like, "Man, this place is weird." I'm like, "Yeah, understatement, Searian."

[00:35:16]Um so they get to chapter chapter end.

[00:35:20]They get to chapter 24, the flower of disillusion. They get to the place that has the avers.

[00:35:28]They're looking at it. He's like, uh, Agie's like, "Should I tell tell you how to pick it so that you don't die?" And Hildigrin's like, "Don't help him. Don't help him."

[00:35:40]>> Yeah. Him clearly feeling like I feel like a he's like, "Should I tell you so you don't die?" And for me, it felt like she was going to give him wrong information. And it feels like everybody else in Seven Vicinity is like sniffing her out.

[00:35:54]>> Yeah. Oh, totally. Everybody knows what's going on except dumb Severin, you know?

[00:36:00]>> Yeah.

[00:36:01]>> Everybody is like, no one trusts Aguia the moment. I mean, that cult that we met last time.

[00:36:07]>> Mhm.

[00:36:07]>> They didn't trust her. Like, nobody tr Dorkus is immediately like, I don't trust this chick. I mean, we're going to get to the point where they get to the hotel and she's like, I'm not even going to bathe in front of this chick. I don't I don't trust her at all.

[00:36:20]>> But this moment where she's like, "Should I help you?" And Hildigrin's like, "No." And she's like, "Well, all I was going to say was the truth, obviously."

[00:36:30]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:31]>> Uh but then even this is like strange and surreal where she basically is like, "You got to pick it from the bottom and all everything on it will kill you and you're always closer to one of like the spines than you think you are." It's like, "Sure." and like reaches out to go get something just to like look at it and immediately his hand is like within >> Yeah.

[00:36:52]>> one centimeter of being impaled by one of the spiny leaves. It's like again just like a weird surreal little plant.

[00:37:01]>> Well, also it seems to be literally a plant from an alien world.

[00:37:07]>> Yes.

[00:37:08]>> Uh which is very cool. Um I here's this quote of the description of the plant. I loved uh they had a stiffness, a geometrical precision, surely born under some other sun.

[00:37:23]>> The color of their leaves was that of a scarab's back, but infused with tints at once deeper and more translucent. It seemed to imply the existence of light somewhere, some inconceivable distance away, of a spectrum that would have withered or perhaps enobled the world.

[00:37:44]Such a cool way of saying it's an alien plant.

[00:37:51]>> Ah, great quote, Paul. It is. And you know, while we're talking through, I don't know if there's anybody just listening to us talk and is not reading the book. The language in the book is so consistently beautiful and it feels like >> odd and unique. It feels like it's telling you like that you understand what it's saying, but that just the concepts in it and what they're experiencing is so odd.

[00:38:16]It's not just that the language is like >> like so archaic that you're like what?

[00:38:21]It's like got that sci-fi fantasy lil using real human archaic terms, but the actual context of what's happening is the part that is interesting and strange and >> makes the the book the the challenge of of reading it, which is delightful. It's delightful.

[00:38:38]>> Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. The part we you know, the super weird part that we skipped over is where Dorcas is or Dorcas, not Dorcas. Dorcas. Um, she is uh >> I've been saying Dorcas. Like >> Dorcas.

[00:38:55]>> I say orca. Like >> little nerdlinger over here.

[00:39:02]>> She's just a little dorkcas.

[00:39:03]>> That's a little dorcus. Uh, but she is like really scared for Searian. And she's like, I'll make you feel better.

[00:39:09]Touch my boob.

[00:39:10]>> Yeah. A lot of just like, do you need you need a boob to touch? Like a lot.

[00:39:16]>> That is a real kindness. That is a real solid, you know, just like make you feel better. And he's like, it it really works. It does make him feel better.

[00:39:24]>> Searian went to the alien plant, but first >> honk honk. Oh, thanks ladies.

[00:39:35]It's hilarious.

[00:39:37]>> Uh anyway, so he does manages to pick the the thing and then uh Hildigan's like, "Hey, what you you want to like practice? You should probably practice wielding the flower. I just the idea of like flapping a a flower at someone is just so funny to me.

[00:39:53]>> It is so silly. Even when they end up having the duel, it's so silly. But he grabs the flower. It's like this tense thing. Is he going to pluck it? Is he going to get stabbed? Then he gets it, brings it back. And then she explains how the duel works and he's like, "Oh, so this one's bad." And like goes and gets another plant.

[00:40:09]>> Yeah. And then that's the one that is >> well it's also like so rad how you use like it's not just it's not just a melee weapon right we you can pluck things off and throw them and you it's pretty rad >> and there's strategy the more leaves that you pluck the more the less dangerous your weapon becomes >> so it's the strategy of >> they can grab the stem because you made the stem grabable now it's it's a real uh push push and pull with the uh >> riskreward board on the plant.

[00:40:40]>> This in my brain I'm like that's a video game. This there's something in there.

[00:40:44]It's like an interesting fighting game.

[00:40:46]>> Totally. Well, and I love how you you you've we've heard for chapter upon chapter like you're going to have to have this fight with a flower, a deadly flower, and it's like what? But then the reality of it is like actually that sounds kind of cool.

[00:40:58]>> What did you what did you picture the the duel with the flower was going to be like before?

[00:41:01]>> I mean I thought it was going to be literally like long stem sunflower like whacking each other on the head. I was trying to picture of like what this would be and I was like is it going to be like you have to milk it and get the spores on them like >> oh >> like squirt guns.

[00:41:17]>> I was I I thought two silly men just >> flapping each other with >> to the death >> to the death.

[00:41:24]>> I mean I assumed that there was some sort of poisonous aspect to the flower, but I like that we have you know there's it's been you it's much more interesting.

[00:41:31]>> It's like a flower/poisoned kunai that you're whipping out. Yeah.

[00:41:35]>> Yeah. Uh anyway, so they practice a little bit and then uh Hildigrin um rows them back across the lake and uh Seian is like, "Oh, he's Hildigan says something that triggers a memory in the guy that never forgets anything."

[00:41:54]>> I love this description. So it triggers it because and even then it comes late because he's like, "You go get the plant. I'll stay with the women like for like for protection or whatever it is.

[00:42:07]And then after they've left Hildigrin, he's dropped them off and he's like, "Good luck with the duel. I'm off to do my rowing around." And leaves them. As he's departing, he goes, "Oh, >> my memory is perfect." But sometimes it can take a long time for my memory to find the memories, >> right?

[00:42:25]>> And I'm like, "That's just a brain, dude.

[00:42:28]>> That's just having a bad memory, my friend.

[00:42:33]But >> perfect memory. Can't recall it right now, but perfect. It's there.

[00:42:38]>> It's in there.

[00:42:41]>> But Hildigrin, he recognizes now he's got, you know, some triangulation of of phrase and the occupation that he's able to recall that he believes this is the guy who was one of Votilus' companions.

[00:42:56]Yes.

[00:42:56]>> Who said something that night, that faithful knight in the >> Yes. Necropolis.

[00:43:01]>> And I like how he's like, "Hey, dude. I see you. Remember, I'm also a friend of Votilus. Wink." And Hildigran's like, "I gotta go." It just pieces out.

[00:43:12]>> Hildigran's like, "You mean the like the rebel?" Like whatever he calls the outlaw. And he's And then he says something that feels more specific where there's the moment where you're like, "Oh, no. Severian's crazy."

[00:43:25]>> Yeah. Yeah. And then Searian says a follow-up line and then implies that Hildigrin is like >> well he's like do you remember when I >> X on the Odisve?

[00:43:33]>> Yeah. He's like I I'm the guy that saved I'm the guy that stopped the the the axe or the hammer or whatever it was.

[00:43:39]>> Yeah. And he's like uh seeing away. Running away.

[00:43:45]>> Egg doesn't hear. Egg is already just like uh how am I supposed to get dinner at this rate?

[00:43:51]>> Yeah. It's weird how this sort of votalist thing has kind of receded into the background a little bit in the novel and it's like oh yeah I forgot that like that's kind of like the biggest that's the inciting incident of this entire novel and >> he brings it up and I'm like oh yeah I should like be retaining >> that as information >> uh and then AGY is like do we really have to hang out with this chick the this new chick I don't like her I don't like her we should ditch her and uh like, "No, she's awesome. I'm totally into it. I got two chicks I'm into now."

[00:44:27]>> Two babes walking with me.

[00:44:30]>> Just a guy.

[00:44:31]>> Yeah.

[00:44:33]>> So, uh, they they, you know, leave the botanical gardens. They're crossing, uh, through Nessus, the city of Nessus, and they get to the boundary of the sanguinary field, which is where these jewels happen.

[00:44:51]And there's this wall, this giant wall.

[00:44:54]And there's like there's like this inn that exists to just it exists because this where the duel's happen. It's like the it's like the the motel all around Disneyland, you know?

[00:45:07]It's like they just sprung up here to house >> the people that are going to stay and maybe die in a duel. Uh, and clearly there is some collusion between Eyea and this inkeeper about fishing dudes in and getting them to like buy things in advance cuz they're probably going to be dead. It's such a such a like obvious and badly concealed scam.

[00:45:35]>> It's so transparent. A few a few things.

[00:45:38]one just rewinding a teensy bit a searian shock at seeing the wall.

[00:45:44]>> Yeah.

[00:45:45]>> And being like, "Whoa, a storm's rolling in." And they're like, "What are you talking about?" And he's like, "There's giant clouds." They're like, "What?

[00:45:51]That's not clouds."

[00:45:52]>> Yeah, >> that's the wall. And he goes, "It goes halfway up the sky." So, it's this massive wall, which is very cool. And you can picture that kind of storm front.

[00:46:00]>> Uh, and then it's actually illegal to have ins already like at the very front to be this close to the wall. you're not allowed to have an inn. And so he doesn't have an inn on paper. It's like a staircase that winds up into the trees that like the trees provide enough shielding of of sound and and and elements that they can have sort of flat platforms and the inn is legally distinct from an inn so as to be able to be the closest thing to the wall. So even on its very front, the guy's like, "Yeah, this is not legal."

[00:46:34]>> Yeah.

[00:46:34]>> Anyway, but what we're doing is fine.

[00:46:36]and Eggy. I mean, whoever this is is uh >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're literally like winking at each other like, "Hey, not subtle." And Sean's just like, "Oh, you want me to give you all my money in advance and I can collect it after I don't die in the duel?" Oh, that sounds like a great plan.

[00:46:54]>> It feels also just like now we begin the script. Hello, ma'am. What do you want for dinner? Something inexpensive? No, sir. Only the best for me. I deserve the best food. It's like >> on you, right, Searian? You got the cash.

[00:47:11]>> You promised. And I want baby need fancy dinden.

[00:47:17]>> Yeah. So clearly she's like bringing dudes to this place over and over and over again to die.

[00:47:22]>> Yeah.

[00:47:22]>> Uh and uh you know, I guess it's a pretty good scam if it works. She just picked a real lunkhead this time who doesn't actually have tons of money.

[00:47:31]Also very funny to have Searian go in there and be like, "Yeah, who do I think is going to lose the duel?

[00:47:38]>> Is it this giant man in a crazy black cloak with a BYO sword?" Like, >> "Sure." I'm like, "Wrong. That was a wrong mark, Eggy. I thought you were >> Well, she thought he was she thought he was an ar arjentur. What is the term? Um >> Oh, yeah.

[00:47:57]Uh she thought he was like one of these rich dudes because he was dressed, you know, in a way that she didn't recognize. And so yeah, she just literally did this all wrong.

[00:48:06]>> Yeah.

[00:48:07]>> Uh yeah. Anyway, so they go to the room and uh Sean's like, I got to oil my sword. And Dorcas is like, I got to I'm going to take a bath, but not around her. I need some privacy. Like I don't care if you see me naked because I'm kind of into you, but not her. I don't trust her. Uh, and uh, a servant comes with a tray of food and beverage.

[00:48:32]>> Uh, and uh, Aggie is like, "Want some wine? Maybe we can give Freaky uh, before the battle."

[00:48:40]>> I also love that. She's like, "You want some wine?" And then I'm picturing a pour like when a kid gets to pour their own orange juice and it's like >> up to the brim, >> teetering over the top of like barely making it. Yeah.

[00:48:53]>> Why don't you have some? Have Have more.

[00:48:55]And she's like, "I'm because I'm so into you and just don't even look at that note that's on the tray at at all." And he's like, "What? What note?" And she's like, "Nah, don't also don't." And she lunges at it to try to get him to stop.

[00:49:10]And he like pushes her out of the way.

[00:49:14]Um, >> there's there's the buildup to it is is very strange and and it feels incredibly tense. So, uh, Dorcast goes and is having a bath with the help of a servant on the other side of this the little wall, the little divider that they bring into the room. Uh, and Searian, you know, he has his glass of wine. He can tell that Eggy has already had a few glasses of wine, so she's indulging.

[00:49:41]>> Uh, and then his sort of lust, his his love, as he says, for her >> like mounts extremely. and she's like, "I know you've been wanting this all day, baby boy." And she like takes it all off. So, she's naked in the room being like, "Don't you want this?" And he's like, "Yeah, but one interesting thing here. There's like this note. Do you think we should read it? Who's it for?" And she's like, "Whatever you do, don't read that."

[00:50:05]>> Yeah. She's like, "Okay, so this the sex thing isn't working to dissuade you."

[00:50:09]So, now I'm just going to get down to brass tax like like just do not read that.

[00:50:14]>> Well, she tries a few things. her being like, "Have you ever she tries like a >> Have you ever felt like a Have you like women who have premonitions?" And he's like, "Yeah, >> yeah, they're called witches and they don't look like this, honey.

[00:50:26]>> They're right next door to our our creepy torturer tower. You know them."

[00:50:31]>> And honestly, not hot.

[00:50:33]>> Yeah.

[00:50:33]>> And he's like, "Whatever's whatever you're doing now is ruining whatever's happening here right now."

[00:50:37]>> Oh, you're talking about our next door neighbors.

[00:50:41]>> So then she keeps being like, "Well, ignore the witches thing. I just really don't want you and I think you shouldn't and if you ever felt like you really liked me and wanted any of this, you won't read the note. And he's like >> then he starts getting more and more suspicious of her in >> it's like the first time he's ever thought she might be problem of the trouble, you know, >> and but he says out loud like I can tell that you were trying to dissuade me from doing this and I have no idea what it is or why you would do this. But then he spikes into like scary giant alien man space where egg is trying to scam him all day. whatever. He's like physically throws her to the ground and he's like, "It's also cuz she was drunk." Okay.

[00:51:20]It's not just because I threw her down there.

[00:51:22]>> I didn't push her that hard.

[00:51:24]>> Like, >> yeah. Oh, but also the I want just a small rewind. He's like has this despite being this basically newborn to the world baby out there, baby's been one day outside of the Citadel.

[00:51:43]The attitude he has in this inn is crazy. The in he's like my clothes are wet by the way to inkeeper guy and the inke keeper's like bringing in a braier and then he's like >> and then the inkeeper stood there and warmed himself. Can you believe that he stood there in my room like >> you just come into my living room and help yourself to my chair? It's like you're you why do you have this higher than thou mentality immediately? Like where did this come from? and then pushing Eggy around and then reading this note and being like, "Well, I don't get it anyway."

[00:52:20]>> Yeah. Well, he reads it and then she like takes it and throws it out the window and he's like, "What'd you do that for?" And he like gets a piece of paper and sits down and like writes it again to remember it.

[00:52:34]>> Uh, and it says, "The woman with you has been here before. Do not trust her."

[00:52:40]Trudeau says the man is a torturer. You are my mother. Come again.

[00:52:48]So clearly the note is not written to him at all because he is mentioned in the third person in this one >> and it's written to the second person.

[00:52:57]>> Uh so I think this is written to Dorcas.

[00:53:02]>> I think so too >> cuz the woman with you has been here before. We obviously know Aggie has been there before. This is a scam they run.

[00:53:09]>> Mhm. do not trust her. Trudeau says the man is a torturer. You the only person left is Dorcas. You are my mother. Come again. So I think I think you know we don't know who the author of the note is and we barely know who Trudeau is.

[00:53:25]>> But whoever it is thinks that Dorcas looks like their mother. And if we think that Dorcas is Cass, the the old rowing guy's dead wife, he was really old. If she died young and had kids, the kids would be old enough >> to be at full adults and may you look like my mom. You're on my mother come again. So I think it's that rower dude's kid.

[00:53:56]>> Yeah.

[00:53:58]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:58]>> Who just like spontaneously wants to protect this woman because she reminds her of her mom not knowing that she is her mom.

[00:54:07]>> Yes, I uh >> that's my interpretation.

[00:54:09]>> I agree with your interpretation wholeheartedly.

[00:54:12]>> But also like Searian is remarkably uncurious about all of this, >> you know.

[00:54:19]>> Well, yeah. So he goes and he leaves the room to go rewrite the note, but he does so partially to to test that the note came from the building to see if there's like a way that he could chase this down. So he goes and he's like, "Inkeeper, where do I write stuff? If I got to write stuff, he's like, "Well, we got a guy who can write things." He's like, "Just take me to the desk." He writes the note. He sands it and he's like, "After all this treatment, this note quality is still the identical quality. I'll fold that up.

[00:54:47]>> Keep that for later." Anyway, who's Trudeau? Name any Trudeau. If you know a man named Trudeau, tell me Trudeau. He's like, well, >> that whole thing is very funny, too.

[00:54:56]He's like, there are no I don't know any Trudeau. Like a Trudeau from when I was a kid, I guess. Oh, except for the guy who works with us. That guy.

[00:55:03]>> I was like, what? That Oh, the stable guy that I literally deal with every single day. Yeah, his name is Trudeau. I don't know why. But he starts with I don't know any Trudeau. There's no Trudeau's. I I don't know any Oh, wait.

[00:55:15]Except that guy who's always here all the time.

[00:55:18]>> I'm kind of picturing Searian just being a looming figure in, you know, the Figen mantle and just like staring at him.

[00:55:26]Well, he's like, "Me? True. Don't know.

[00:55:28]There's no true to maybe down the street and just like the nervous babbling of a guy who feels like he's going to get beat up and eventually being like, "Oh, yeah." And the guy who works here, he he Sorry about that. I'll go get him. It's like, >> but it's not presented as those searians doing anything, >> right?

[00:55:45]>> Menacing.

[00:55:46]>> Yeah.

[00:55:47]>> He's just kind of like any Trudeau, a Trudeau that you might know, a Trudeau that's closer to here, a neighbor perhaps. He's like just proddding until the guy gives him the information that he wants. And then he's like, "Oh, right, right, right." And starts calling for him outside. And then there's sort of like this mix of action because as he's calling the the bells start ringing or whatever to get people to go out to the sanguinary fields and whatever other in hands that he has are like, "Oh yeah, Trudeau was here, but now all of his stuff is gone. He's taken everything.

[00:56:19]>> He ran away. He's terrified of something."

[00:56:22]>> Yeah.

[00:56:23]>> So like, what is that about?

[00:56:25]>> Interesting.

[00:56:25]>> What is he scared of? Um, you know, all of this is very enigmatic.

[00:56:35]>> Mhm. Uh, but before they go out to the uh Sanguinary Fields, I think actually even before Sean came downstairs, you know, Dorcas comes out from having bathed and she has beautiful like incredibly golden hair, >> super blue eyes. She's still wearing like her muddy. Both women just have like muddy raggy gown things that they're wearing.

[00:56:57]>> Uh but that's all she has to wear. And then she comes around and she's like, "Oh, uh naked time. Okay, well, I'll just I'll go back over here." And Sean is like, "Don't even worry about it."

[00:57:05]But they sort of stay upstairs. And >> well, he's like he's like, "I I would be happy to buy you new clothes."

[00:57:11]Meanwhile, Ag's over there like boob hanging out of this to He never offers to give her new clothes, you know? He's like, >> "Oh, he's such a weirdie.

[00:57:21]>> Such a weirdy."

[00:57:22]>> But then they come down the stairs and they're like, "It's fight time, baby."

[00:57:25]And then they head out to the dual.

[00:57:28]>> Yeah. So, the the horns are are sounding. Uh crowds of people are uh are congregating and then people just start shouting names into the air. Very like, "Hey, Aia, you should shout my name."

[00:57:43]And she's like, "I'm not I'm not doing that." She said, "Go pay somebody to do it or do it yourself."

[00:57:48]>> Pow! He hits her.

[00:57:50]>> Yeah.

[00:57:51]>> Uh and uh because I think at this point he is fully distrustful of of Eggia.

[00:57:59]>> But even as they were like this, they're on this toxic relationship. It's been a day. Uh he's standing outside and he looks and her coming down the stairs with her dress all sort of ripped. her dress is split almost all almost all the way up to her hip and so her leg is like peeking out of the dress as she's running or walking down the steps and he's like whatever lust that I had felt and then I'd lost came back again tenfold watching her walk and me looking at her she she knew it so interesting to be like >> oh now he's into her again oh now he slapped her across the face it's like what in the heck >> I know it was it was a lot also love that this chapter we're now in chapter 27. I love that the chapter is called Is he dead? Like what a great You turn the page and Is he dead is the name of the chapter. Like oh, I'm >> curious about this.

[00:58:52]>> Uh but um >> so they're about to have this duel. He he finds the opponent. Uh oh, I can't remember the name of the guy. It's such a cool name. Um I want to find it. I'll find it in a second. But um finds the opponent. It turns out it's this it's the dude that came to the store originally and gave him the the seed.

[00:59:17]Uh and this dude is in full armor.

[00:59:20]>> Mhm.

[00:59:20]>> Are you you you were doubting that? You don't think it's true?

[00:59:22]>> I Well, it he's in the armor of the guy who came to the store.

[00:59:27]>> Oh, interesting. You think it's a different >> I think the very like one of the last sentences in the book gives away who it is.

[00:59:34]>> We can we can talk about that. the guy shows up, you know, calling for Searian, whatever it is, >> to do the duel. And the guy, there's the >> referee is like, "All right, well, you seem to be in full armor. Um, >> we're good to duel."

[00:59:50]>> It's Dorcas. Dorcas is like, "Wait, wait, wait. I lodge a complaint. I want to lodge a complaint." He's like, "Okay, well, what's your complaint?" He's like, "Uh, this dude is in full armor and my boy is not." Like, that's not fair. And the referee's like, "She got a point.

[01:00:05]She got a point. Didn't even notice that. Uh, fair point." Uh, he's like, "Okay, so what are we going to do about it?" Uh, you strip strip down. Get your take your armor off. He's like, "I will do it, but I will not take off my helmet."

[01:00:17]>> Which I think leads credence to your >> idea that it's not who >> And he doesn't talk. He just goes like this.

[01:00:23]>> Yeah.

[01:00:23]>> I don't think he ever speaks. He just is like, "Helmet on, we'll strip down." And then they're like, well, the rules say that, you know, this is a hard line for this guy. He's going to duel with his helmet on. Any problems with that? And they're like, you can ask for like a a bonus or whatever.

[01:00:39]>> You can get out of this whole fight. You could just like Dorcas is like, don't do the fight. And Sean is like, "No, I came all this way. I picked a flower. I'm kind of I'm pot committed now."

[01:00:53]>> I will say, I forget. I think it was as they were coming up to the sanquinary fielders sometime because all of this is so civil being like he's going to wear his helmet is that okay you they're fighting to the death. Uh, but it talks society why the duels are actually good.

[01:01:10]And if you don't have the duels, all you have then is murders, which then is resulting in more deaths because not only do you have the person who did the murder to try and settle their >> feelings, whatever it may be, but then you have the law coming in and executing the person who did the murder. So, you're actually doubling the number of deaths. And doing duels this way is better for the society as a whole >> because it is a civil way of letting people get their murders out.

[01:01:37]>> Get your murders out.

[01:01:38]>> They they've got rules to this and they're like you're allowed one thing and Searian pulls out his >> um journeyman torturers mask which is the skin thinly covering rigid bone mask that he puts on. Yeah.

[01:01:54]>> And him describing >> it's not going to do no protect him. Not at all.

[01:01:58]>> Make him look freaky deicky and him being very satisfying to hear everybody go.

[01:02:05]>> Yeah.

[01:02:07]>> And then he just hits up the battle.

[01:02:10]>> Yeah. And the battle is is also kind of strangely described in that it like it starts off kind of clear and then all of a sudden Searian's down and he's just like, you know, he the dudes he hears the guy over him being like, "Okay, I won. I want his sword. I want his outfit. Like give me his stuff. I won by rights." And then just like and sits up AND EVERYBODY'S LIKE, "OH JESUS, WHY IS HE ALIVE?"

[01:02:39]WELL, I love it because the way that the battle is described is so interesting.

[01:02:43]Like the battle's very tense. The writing of it is great. But he's like at some point I threw a leaf and it hit one of his leaves that was coming through the air and then they didn't uh like collapse. So they like split into each other and then cut eachelves to ribbons and then fell into a pile on the ground.

[01:03:00]I'm like, "Oh, he was like already hit and started tripping."

[01:03:03]>> Yes.

[01:03:03]>> Was my assumption.

[01:03:04]>> Yeah. But see the way he describes agree these leaves hitting each other and then it's all becomes like actually more surreal the leaves weaving and becoming ribbons lying on the ground and everybody is asking you know somebody says is he dead he hears the voice of the person saying like collecting all the stuff that he wants from him but he's conscious of it and so he's just tripping balls on the ground and then gets up to everybody's shock and fear which to me is just another like, "Oh, he's like a weird giant alien man."

[01:03:37]>> Yeah. I mean, the the the impression that we get is that no one should be able to have survived that, you know, like uh there's that that should be death to any mortal human. Uh and somehow Searian is like, "I feel fine.

[01:03:55]I'm okay. I'm good."

[01:03:58]>> Yeah. Super creepy. Super weird. But the the referee's like, "I guess I guess the fight goes on. He's not he's not dead."

[01:04:08]And his opponent is like freaks out, just scuedles the other direction. And the all the crowd starts going, "No, no, no. You can't leave." And he's like, "Oh, yay. Flower, flower, flower."

[01:04:20]>> Yeah. He like kills everybody as he's running by. You hear screams and then you hear worse screams, I assume, of them dying to the flower poison. But at the end, Dorcas had stayed right there to like monitor. A disappeared in the crowd almost immediately. And as his opponent runs away, it says somewhere far away, Aia screamed, "Egasalis."

[01:04:42]So that was her brother.

[01:04:44]>> Oh, I had the shop. In the shop, they had it, if you think way back to going into the rag shop in the first place, they had all these different mantles and sort of costumes. he was wearing this double mask situation. So, we know that he's like a costume guy. The fact that he wouldn't talk, the fact that he's like, "Give me that sword." immediately, >> right?

[01:05:04]>> Um, this is, I think, the conclusion of the con is her and her brother have somebody who puts on the costume, gives them the seed, and they >> he comes and smites them with the flower, and they collect whatever >> they get from the body, >> and that's it.

[01:05:20]>> Pretty good. Pretty good. I did not catch that, but I I mean I think totally totally makes sense. Um but yeah, we we sort of end 27 on a cliffhanger of uh that where yeah, she says uh you know, my brother runs away. So we don't know what is next as he runs through the crowd terrified of the undead man that that can't be killed with the flower >> because clearly they've done this many times before.

[01:05:49]>> Yeah.

[01:05:51]interesting. I mean, I think the payoff of the jewel was really exciting and I I loved all of that stuff.

[01:06:02]>> Uh it it it does feel like we're sort of just like meandering through the world, you know? It it it really and especially when we get like that shot of Votilus again, it's like, oh yeah, he had some sort of purpose at at the be and now we're sort of just bumping into these odd characters and kind of aimlessly moving through the world and going through these misadventures, you know, >> and even something that we're sort of skipping over because they're like quick aides is it will dip into present tense.

[01:06:35]>> Yeah. of Searian like as he is writing there's like a moment where he's like >> when I'm in my nice house with my nice things and my nice nicness anyway and then he goes back into it. So there is like this sort of frame that the story is being held within which is Searian somewhere in the house absolute at a writing desk.

[01:06:57]>> Yeah.

[01:06:58]>> Writing this out then what we're actually >> for some reason we would assume it's he's writing it for some purpose. Yeah.

[01:07:04]>> Yeah. It's uh it's very interesting, but I was thinking a bit about that as well because of the votalist thing too with these books that we've been reading other than Wednesday wars.

[01:07:18]>> We have Molassin, which is about this journey. It's not like this. There's a story there, there's a throughine, but that's not like the core reason that you're there. It's the themes that you're experiencing. Then we have Long Way to a Small Angry Planet. That is like the light daily adventures of some charismatic people, >> right?

[01:07:38]>> And it's like, oh, that's the point.

[01:07:40]>> We're in like a similar space where I'm like, I'm sure that there's going to be I mean, this is another one of those series that everybody's like, it's the reread that makes it the good >> Yeah.

[01:07:51]>> But while you're in it, it is this I just got to take it >> Yes.

[01:07:57]>> one step at a time.

[01:07:58]>> Not sure. like it's not exactly A plus B equals C, but maybe >> A and D eventually are going to equal some, you know, it feels like >> let it wash over you, go along for the ride. And the ride is interesting, as you said, the language is really pleasurable to read. Um, but you know, some of that the the whole uh detour into the botanical garden, uh, I was just like, what are we even doing here? Especially that the in the hut with the, you know, it's like I don't get it. I don't I don't know what's going on. But >> that's I think that's the reason that people bounce off the books like this.

[01:08:40]And this is the space where I think my superpower is being like, >> I assume it'll matter if it matters.

[01:08:45]>> Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. No, I I mean I'm still super into this. It's really interesting stuff. And uh >> those are the moments that I crave the reread.

[01:08:55]>> I never crave a reread, but being like, I bet somebody else knows what the heck this means.

[01:09:01]>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh interesting stuff. And we got >> basically just, you know, one more session on this on this one.

[01:09:10]>> Yeah. We finished the book next week.

[01:09:11]>> It's crazy. I have no idea where I have no idea what to expect for a finishing of this book.

[01:09:16]>> I know.

[01:09:17]>> I have no idea.

[01:09:19]>> Well, it's funny because we bought like the series in a single book. I'm like, we are only 14% of the way through this.

[01:09:26]>> That's right.

[01:09:27]>> Yeah. But it but if it you know if it is its own volume or it was at some point its own volume like how where do we get to at the end of this?

[01:09:36]>> Did you ever read Hyperion?

[01:09:38]>> Oh, sure. Yeah. I felt a little bit like that >> when reading Hyperion, less like this because it was like short stories and things, but like you get the stories of all the characters and you're like, "Okay, what's the point of them being together? Where are we going?" It's got the same kind ofish >> feeling. Agree. I I went into Hyperion knowing that it was a take on the Canterbury Tales.

[01:10:01]>> So, I think I had a different expectation. you know, my expectation was calibrated differently because I was like, "Oh, it's the Canterbury." So, it is a series of interlocking, loosely associated stories of different characters. So, yeah, but I mean, it's a good I think it's a good comparison because it does feel like this it's almost like a slice of life of this of of Searian, you know? It's like, "All right, so this and then this happened."

[01:10:30]But I I clearly he has a point cuz he's sitting down to tell this to somebody >> as as the otter, I guess.

[01:10:39]>> As the as far as we could tell in the throne. Is he still in the throne? Is he back in the citadel in jail like Techla?

[01:10:46]>> Yeah.

[01:10:47]>> Who knows?

[01:10:48]>> I don't That's a good question. Yeah, that's interesting.

[01:10:51]>> All right. Um, we have some favorite quotes from these chapters. I have three, I believe.

[01:10:58]>> You should start it up. I was It's one of those sections where I was like page flipping.

[01:11:03]>> Yeah.

[01:11:03]>> And then I only have one this week.

[01:11:04]>> I have Mine are all pretty brief. Um I like this one. Uh I asked why it was called the lake of birds.

[01:11:17]Because so many's found dead in the water is what some say. This is him talking to the uh to the rower guy. But it might only be that that's because there's so many here. There's a great deal set against death. I mean by the people that has to die.

[01:11:36]Love that people. The people there's some people that don't have to die. Is that the implication? Anyway, >> yeah.

[01:11:42]>> Drawing her picture like a crone with a sack and all that, but she's a good friend of birds. Death is wherever there's dead men in quiet, you'll find a good many birds. That's been my experience.

[01:11:57]I just love that section. I love that there's a great deal said against death.

[01:12:03]I mean, by the people that has to die.

[01:12:07]That's my favorite line.

[01:12:09]>> Nobody much cares for it, you know, mortals. Not a fan. Not a fan of death.

[01:12:16]>> And the book is so full of like little things like that. I don't think to grab them sometimes. I don't know why. like maybe I'll try and find it while you hit up another quote, but there's like just searium being a jerk for no reason. And I'm like, >> what in the hell? Why would you think this, say this, whatever. It's uh and it's delightful to be like, you suck.

[01:12:43]>> Yeah, she's a good friend of birds.

[01:12:45]Death is.

[01:12:46]>> Yeah.

[01:12:47]>> So, it's so good. Anyway, sorry. Go ahead. Uh my quote is as they're leaving the Botanic Gardens.

[01:12:56]When Aggie and I left the Botanic Gardens, Dorcast was still with us. Aie was anxious to make her go away, and for a time I permitted her to try. I was moved in part by the fear that with Dorcas near it would be impossible for me to persuade Agia to lie with me, but even more by a vague appreciation of the pain Dorcas would feel, lost and dismayed as she was already if she should see me die. Only a short time before I had poured out to Agia all my sorrow with the death of Techla. Now these new concerns had replaced it, and I found I poured it out indeed as a man might spill sour wine on the ground. by the use of the language of sorrow I had for the time being obliterated my sorrow. So powerful is the charm of words which for us reduces the to manageable entities all the passions that would otherwise madden and destroy us.

[01:13:47]>> I had that section too. It's so good.

[01:13:50]>> So good >> by the use of the language of sorrow I had for the time being obliterated my sorrow. So powerful is the charm of words.

[01:13:59]I just think about like >> the times I've been saddest in my life and like writing a song >> and being like, "Well, listen to the song I made now." It's like it is all of it is contained now in this and it's gone from me temporarily.

[01:14:17]>> That's right. It's the power of words.

[01:14:20]>> Beautiful.

[01:14:20]>> Beautiful. Yeah. Um All right, then. I just have one more.

[01:14:26]Um, I like this.

[01:14:30]The world is filled half with evil and half with good.

[01:14:36]>> We can tilt it forward so that more good runs into our minds or back so that more runs into this, a movement of her eyes took in all the lake. But the quantities are the same. We change only their proportion here or there.

[01:14:55]Ah, that's some I my brain was like that's the that's the force, baby.

[01:15:02]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:15:04]>> Yeah. Beautiful.

[01:15:04]>> Balance in balance.

[01:15:07]>> Good stuff. Uh, thanks folks again.

[01:15:10]We're finishing up this first novel in Book of the New Sun next week. So, um, I hope you're hope you're with us. We'll be back. Hope you're uh sending in those non-spoiler topics. We love getting them from you and we hope you have a great week and you can uh find a little time to dance.

[01:15:31]>> Dark of a place to be and you need an escape from reality.

[01:15:39]Open up those pages and sci-fi or fantasy whatever genre you join a book club cuz you won't read it on your own. Join a book club so you'll be held accountable. It's just a means to them, but you're doing it with your friends. So join the book club by DLC.