Every Catholic Apologist RANKED And Explained w/ Ish of Arabia

Added: 2026-05-08

[00:00:06]Hey, what's going on? Welcome to Cleave to Antiquity. Today I'm joined by a very special guest, Ish. What's going on, man?

[00:00:12]>> How's it going, man? Good to be here.

[00:00:14]>> Yeah, glad to have you on the show. I'm uh I'm excited for this one. I think it's gonna be fun. We're going to do a uh tier list best to worst Catholic apologist in the YouTube space right now. So, I think this will be interesting because there's there's quite a few. I just kind of dumped them all onto the list. So, we will uh we'll be ranking uh the best and the worst Catholic apologist from A to D here. So, I've got like everybody you could possibly think of on this list. Just about. If there's somebody missing, >> chat, you let me know in the comments who you'd like to see in a future tier list. But, I feel like I did a pretty good job getting just about everybody on here. You know what's crazy though is that whatever I say I kind of get in crap for it. Not you because I'm the non Catholic person. Like I'm gonna get a bunch of messages after this like yo you think I'm D tier.

[00:01:05]>> Bro, what did you why did you rank me D?

[00:01:09]>> That's rough.

[00:01:11]>> Oh but well this is all for fun. So please don't send them hate mail. We're just we're messing around. We're having fun going through this. So uh we'll be ranking them A to A to D. So, I guess I don't mean we could just get into it, man.

[00:01:24]>> Yeah, for sure.

[00:01:25]>> So, the first one we have on the list is William Alrech. What are what are your thoughts, bro?

[00:01:31]>> See, this is the thing. I was telling this before we started recording. I don't even watch I can't remember the last time William Albre like came up with my recommendations.

[00:01:40]>> Yeah, I think I think he used to be okay for like the basic stuff. Like his his pet thing was like Marology, wasn't it?

[00:01:49]He was doing like marology streams for like a long time. I think he still does them, >> but I don't think he's as prominent as he used to be and from what I can remember, >> uh, he's not been engaging in debates that he promises to do. So, I don't know. I'll put he I'd say maybe in the past he maybe like a B.

[00:02:08]>> I think maybe now I'd probably put him in like a C tier >> just because I I haven't seen too much from him lately and the last thing I've heard from him was like uh like Marology stuff. Those were those were okay. Those were like okay videos. Um >> well I think in my opinion I'd put him a C. You think that's fair?

[00:02:26]>> Yeah, I think that's fair.

[00:02:28]>> All right. So we got Catholic Catholic Sam here. So he's kind of a newer apologist. Where would you put him on the list?

[00:02:35]>> I I'd put him I don't know. Definitely not the top.

[00:02:41]>> My list is all jacked up. Hold on. I got to do A B C D E. There you go. There you go. Okay, that's better.

[00:02:54]>> Do you want to start over? It was messed up.

[00:02:59]>> It's good for the memes.

[00:03:00]>> Okay. Okay, there you go.

[00:03:02]>> I don't think Catholic Sam's gonna apolog.

[00:03:10]>> All right, Catholic Sam. He's not not an apologist. We'll put him.

[00:03:15]>> I have not seen this man on like a formal debate. It's like putting me up there with like Muhammad hijab. Like it just doesn't like it's not that's not who we are.

[00:03:23]>> Well, didn't didn't Catholic Sam debate um who's that dude talk? Didn't he debate taco talks or was that was that Jesus and whatnot?

[00:03:32]>> It could have been Jesus and whatnot.

[00:03:34]>> Maybe. I think I think Catholic Sam was moderating or something. That was a wild debate, dude. cuz uh Taco was like he's like I'm not praying with neither of you. This was right after the uh >> Oh yeah. He thinks they're like completely heretics like pray with them.

[00:03:49]>> Yeah, that was a that was a wild one.

[00:03:51]But it was because um he could have led it. He could have led the prayer or something. But this was like a prayer for when that uh when that Catholic school had the uh you know what I'm talking about. And he was like he was like no I'm not praying. I'm like dang dude that's not good.

[00:04:06]>> That's crazy. Um, we got Eric, Catholic Christian. Have you ever seen his show?

[00:04:11]>> Yeah, he's chill. He's chill. I put him I put him by William Albrech.

[00:04:16]>> You put him in a C?

[00:04:18]>> Yeah, I'll put him in a C tier.

[00:04:19]>> All right, we'll put we'll put Eric Eric Mcabe just as good as William Alrech.

[00:04:24]You heard it here first.

[00:04:27]Laya Laya Rose as far as a She just had a conversation with Gavin Ortland uh like a couple days ago actually.

[00:04:35]>> I haven't watched it. I saw the trailer for it, but I haven't seen the whole thing. I actually think this is not Catholic apologetics, but I've watched her like pro and anti-abortion stuff, and she's really good.

[00:04:46]>> Yeah. But as far as like Catholic apologetics, where would you where would you think?

[00:04:51]>> Probably D. Honestly, >> the D tier, >> it's not it's not her thing. Like she's Catholic, but it's like if you said it was like social issues, it she'd be like on top, >> right? Like a prolife issue, she'd be like a tier. a tier or maybe maybe B A B tier.

[00:05:08]>> But uh the Catholic apologetics. Yeah, I there were some people I heard that they got into I didn't watch the entire video. I heard they got into like a kind of a back and forth on Catholic theology and she was just like giving kind of deflective answers or maybe not not as adequate as it could have been.

[00:05:24]>> I just don't think it's her thing. Yeah.

[00:05:26]>> Yeah. Certain people have certain niches. Um Cameron Bertusi, >> I think he's a B.

[00:05:33]>> You think he's B? I think he's pretty good.

[00:05:35]>> I don't know if I would put him on B.

[00:05:38]I >> I would put him I would put him C. I'd put him C. The reason I would do so I I mean maybe in between a B and a C. I do think he's a little bit better.

[00:05:49]>> Give him a C+. Give him a C++.

[00:05:51]>> C plus. Okay. Honorary. Honorary C++. I I'll say I do think he's a little better than Alrech. So maybe he could be a B.

[00:05:59]He's right on the line for me. Mhm.

[00:06:01]>> Um, but I've I've seen him make some arguments that were not not not so good in reference to Vatican 2. He could have made them a little bit better, but he also like super hyper promoted Trent Doerty. Do you remember? Do you remember that? And those debates did not go very well. But >> I guess I can't really impute that on him. But for me, I would say maybe just a C a C++.

[00:06:26]>> Well, how he only been Catholic for a few years, hasn't he? Yeah, he did the uh he did the um like big reveal at the like in the Vatican or at the Vatican.

[00:06:35]>> Yeah, that was like during the the lockdown thing or something, >> I think. So, >> years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that so been around for a while.

[00:06:43]>> Yeah, he was out there. He was out there at the uh at the Vatican smoking cigars with Matt Frad on the on the balcony there.

[00:06:50]>> Yeah, I remember that.

[00:06:52]>> He was like, I have an announcement. I have an announcement to make.

[00:06:56]>> That was crazy. It was that was a cool kind of scene though. All right, so uh Trent Doerty, >> do you know who this is?

[00:07:02]>> I barely know him and everything I've seen it's it dude. He's eight. He's the best Catholic apologetics guy on YouTube right now.

[00:07:15]>> Sure. If that's what you want to say, it's your channel, man.

[00:07:19]>> Number one. Number one. No, I don't think so. I think he's I think he's probably E tier. I think I think it's a whole different tier. I think Catholic Sam even has >> Yeah, I would I would definitely put Catholic Sam above above Trent Doerty.

[00:07:35]Um >> dude, but yeah, every every debate this guy's been in has been not uh not good.

[00:07:41]Um granted, he seems like he's doing better now. I saw that interview that he had with um with Matt Frad and he seemed like, you know, in a better.

[00:07:49]>> That wasn't too bad. That wasn't too bad.

[00:07:51]>> Yeah, I thought I thought that was a little a little bit better. So maybe next maybe next time if I do this tier list in the future, he can move up a slot or two on the coveted cleave to Antiquity tier list chart.

[00:08:05]>> The yearly annual report. There you go.

[00:08:08]>> Yeah, we got to keep tabs on everybody.

[00:08:10]>> All right. Divine Mercy Apologetics.

[00:08:12]Have you ever watched this guy's stuff?

[00:08:14]>> Yeah, he's he's good. I' I'd put him close to Cameron.

[00:08:18]>> Close to Cameron. So like a like a C++.

[00:08:20]>> C++. I wouldn't put a C minus. I'll take your word for it. I haven't seen him too much other than like when he's been on like Alrech show or something.

[00:08:28]>> Mhm. He's pretty neutral. Like he's not like super controversial or anything like that.

[00:08:33]>> Okay.

[00:08:33]>> Yeah.

[00:08:34]>> Uh Joe Heshmire, >> man. Okay. All the big names in Catholicism I find not super like um convincing.

[00:08:47]>> So, I'll give I'll give you an example.

[00:08:49]>> Did you put Scott Han on here, by the way? Yeah, he's on here.

[00:08:52]>> Okay. Well, I'll keep my thoughts for that one, but like Joe Heshmire is just like he's good and I believe he's good, but if I wasn't a Catholic, I wouldn't believe what he was saying.

[00:09:03]>> Like I've thought about it for a while and I don't know what to think about that.

[00:09:07]>> You know, I'll I'll say this. I'll say this about Joe. I think he's a very good rhetoric. I think he's a good he's good at debate and pre-debate tactics. So, a couple of times, and I' I've said this to a couple of people I know in private, he's very good at picking prompts that favor his side, like overwhelmingly without the other person realizing this because I remember when he was he was trying to set up debates on uh Bertusi's channel, he had sent out an email to or not an email, they had tagged us in a post or something and I guess they had emailed a couple of different people, but they were trying to set up a prompt on the canon of scripture.

[00:09:48]But it was only they like is the Protestant cannon correct?

[00:09:54]>> And it was like you can't push back on the dudero cannon though. You can't push back on our cannon. It's just a debate on is the Protestant cannon correct.

[00:10:01]>> So >> that's kind of what I mean. Yeah. It's like >> as a Catholic I already believe it.

[00:10:06]>> It's like a statement that I'm it's not really questioning my own belief. So it's kind of it's hard for me to judge type of thing.

[00:10:13]>> I will say one thing that he's good at though. Very good. good. I mean, I just said something is good, but another thing that he's very good at is the basics like uh real presence in the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration.

[00:10:23]>> And almost every debate he's done on those two two topics and the content that he's made on these two topics, I think are actually pretty good. And he practices brevity. Like he's very he's concise on these two topics in particular. So, I would personally put him maybe at like a B.

[00:10:40]>> Yeah, he's good for B.

[00:10:42]>> I would say Heshmire's probably a B. I'd say for the for the basics because I saw his um I saw his baptism debate with Needgod.net. I thought he did he that he blew that out of the water.

[00:10:53]>> He did, but we're also talking about needgod.net.

[00:10:56]>> That's not a tall order.

[00:10:58]>> I was going to say like the bar is not the greatest not the highest bar in town.

[00:11:02]>> So, you're telling me when I do the when I do the needgod.net uh uh tier or the Protestant tier list, I need to put him at the top.

[00:11:09]>> If he's not a tier, I'm unsubscribing on his >> That's true. All right, Brian Holdzsworth, what do you think?

[00:11:19]>> C minus. Not even C. Uh because Okay, I watched his video on do Muslims and Christians worship the same God and as an ex-Muslim, I just didn't find it convincing in the way like I try to be as neutral as pos even though I'm I'm Catholic. I'm trying to be as neutral as possible with the question. And that one I find when I when Catholics answer it, they're not seeing the the question correctly. This is a whole different discussion, but I just find it it's kind of similar to Joe Heshmire, but also >> I don't know that I don't know that Brian Holtzsworth has ever done a debate. I think he's just a video guy. I >> maybe that's what I'm reacting to. It's just the videos. It's >> the same type of videos.

[00:12:07]>> So, what do you think? A D or a C?

[00:12:10]I mean, at least Lyla Rose's videos are entertaining, so I'll I'll put him aside.

[00:12:16]>> So, I'll I'll I'll make the executive decision. I'll put I'll put him at a D.

[00:12:20]There you go. Uh, what about what about uh Jesus and whatnot?

[00:12:25]So, he has done debates.

[00:12:26]>> He has done debates. Puts him above Catholic Sam has done them. He has Oh, you know what? Actually, I think I think Catholic Sam and him do a call-in debate show or something. I haven't I haven't really seen it, though. I But I remember seeing a post about it.

[00:12:42]>> I've never watched him do it.

[00:12:45]>> That's >> I've never Which is funny cuz I've talked to Catholic Sam like maybe like once a week I talked to him and I've never watched his stuff.

[00:12:52]>> Oh man.

[00:12:54]All right. So, what do you think? Jesus and whatnot.

[00:12:57]>> Uh I'll put him D2.

[00:12:58]>> A D?

[00:12:59]>> Yeah. just because I I don't know.

[00:13:02]There's something about if I see someone on like a Tik Tok or an Instagram, it lowers you on the tier a little bit.

[00:13:09]>> If you have an Instagram at all >> if you especially Tik Tok if you're on Tik Tok, it's like, okay, we're kind of lowered. There's a there's a there's a tier lowered.

[00:13:19]>> So if you So So get this. If you're Catholic and you have Instagram at all, you're automatic Dtier or lowered.

[00:13:28]basically.

[00:13:29]>> This is our new standard of judgment.

[00:13:31]Well, I think um you know, I saw him on I saw him on Taco Talks or debating Taco Talks and I thought he did pretty good.

[00:13:40]I think he should probably get maybe a C. I don't know.

[00:13:45]>> I think I think we should bump him up bump him up to a C because I did see that. I thought he did do I thought he did hold his own there. I haven't really seen him in any other debates, but I'd put him I'd put him about there with all with Alrech.

[00:13:57]>> Yeah, I can see that.

[00:13:59]>> Trent Horn, the man that myth, the legend, what do you think?

[00:14:02]>> I'm gonna say B. I think he's really good.

[00:14:05]>> You think he's a B?

[00:14:06]>> I think he's a B.

[00:14:08]>> Maybe even maybe a B+. The reason why I say this is because he's very um he sticks to the point with debates. I've seen him do it and he doesn't like even when the opponent's trying to like deflect from a thing, he sticks with it.

[00:14:23]>> Yeah, I'd agree. I'd agree with a B maybe maybe a minus as far as like the actual Catholic debaters go.

[00:14:31]>> Um for for at least what we're working with here, I I think I think Trent, he isn't afraid he isn't afraid to have the conversations. At least he he didn't used to be. nowadays. I think he's picking his opponents a little more carefully, but I think he does a relatively good job, especially with Protestants.

[00:14:50]>> Um, I really don't think he did well in his in his debate with Gavin Ortland.

[00:14:54]Surprisingly, the one on um Solos Scriptural, which I think should have been a slam dunk for him, but what it ended up doing was that was like the the launch point for Gavin's career.

[00:15:05]>> So, I think I think most most of the time uh I think he Yeah, I think B is B is probably good. I definitely disagree with him on a lot of stuff, but I'd say as far as rhetoric and stuff goes, B is appropriate.

[00:15:17]>> Yeah.

[00:15:18]>> Um, Jimmy Aken, what do you think?

[00:15:22]>> I can't give him an A because if I give him an A, it's just because he's entertaining. It doesn't mean he's good at debating.

[00:15:28]>> Okay.

[00:15:28]>> But I did I did watch him. Was it Jimmy Akin?

[00:15:32]It was him versus an atheist. Um, who was the atheist?

[00:15:39]No, it was is the gospel reliable? I think he did really good with that.

[00:15:44]>> I saw him um I saw him a three years ago on pints with Aquinus just beating the brakes off of the other Paul in a debate on I think it was it was Solas Capur. We were reacting to it in a chill stream not that long ago and he was like >> he was like can you tell me in the Bible where >> um >> uh where it said that this like uh structure of the church or something is going to go away and we're no longer going to have this like uh infallible teaching authority or something like where where is this because we obviously see this in scripture. Where does the scripture say this is going to go away?

[00:16:24]Another Paul was sitting there like He like had no answer. So he like deflected into he's like he's like well you said something about the magisterium so I'm going to talk about that and then he didn't let it go. 30 minutes later Jimmy Aken was like Paul show me in the Bible like I didn't forget buddy not running.

[00:16:45]>> That's hilarious.

[00:16:45]>> So you think you think maybe B?

[00:16:48]>> I gotta give him an A. I just think he's good. I remember the debate now. It was uh who was that? Man. Barton man. He debated Bartman on if the gospels are reliable and he did amazing.

[00:16:58]>> Okay. I would I would personally say he's a B, but I'll let you I'll let you pick the A. I'll let you give him the A.

[00:17:05]>> We have to give someone the A.

[00:17:06]>> So long so long as I can also give Michael Loftton an A.

[00:17:12]>> Okay. So, what do you what do you think about uh reason and theology live?

[00:17:17]Michael Loftton.

[00:17:20]Oh, I'm trying to think of if I watch the debate or not. I think it's pretty average. So C is an average, but the C is looking too crowded.

[00:17:32]>> C is looking too crowd. Don't worry about that. We'll give everybody the whole tier list.

[00:17:38]>> You got to fail a few people now.

[00:17:41]>> Uh >> yeah, I would say C.

[00:17:44]>> Yeah, you got to be you got to be charitable. You got to be hyperqualified. new >> C for charity. There you go.

[00:17:50]>> I like uh you know, I will say I like Loftton's news coverage. I think since he's pivoted from doing like more apologetic work to doing the news coverage, I think that's actually been a good transition for him. Um >> not a huge fan of his political stuff, but when he does like Vatican news and stuff like this, I think that can actually be interesting.

[00:18:11]>> Um maybe not so much on the theology side, but the news aspect. I I do I enjoy it. I'll watch it. All right, Sam Shimone, where are we putting this man on the list?

[00:18:22]>> I think if you take away quality of video, if we take away um lack of proper wording and the cursing and all that, he's up there with Jimmy Aken.

[00:18:37]>> You think he's a tier?

[00:18:38]>> I I think he's at least beer. Like his his arguments, I think, are pretty good.

[00:18:43]>> I don't know. Well, you know, he's personally said that he's not. So, I think he's Okay, I'll qualify this. I think he's very good against Muslims. I think he's he's one of the best uh anti-Islam debaters, rhetorics out there. I think he's excellent at that. I think his Catholic apologetics work, though, maybe is not the best. And I think he's I think he's said in the past himself, he's like, I don't really consider myself that good of a Catholic apologist. He's like, you know, I more do like apostolic Christianity or something.

[00:19:19]>> If it's for defending specifically Catholicism, it's lowered. I agree.

[00:19:23]>> Yeah, I think for his Islam stuff, he's probably You're probably right. I think he would be about a tier, but as far as defending Catholicism, I don't know if I would do that.

[00:19:33]>> So, what do you think? Do you think what do you think >> if it's Catholic? It' be it'd be B minus. So I put I would put him in B.

[00:19:40]That's because >> the basics of Catholic when it comes to apostolic stuff, he can do pretty well.

[00:19:44]When it gets to specifics like Filioquay or something, then probably not.

[00:19:51]>> All right, let's look. Sips. Sips with Sarah. Have you ever seen his show?

[00:19:57]>> Oh, yeah. We're good friends. Um I'm trying to think because he hasn't done debate either. He just does videos.

[00:20:03]Okay.

[00:20:04]>> And they're mostly they're mostly towards Protestants. Um he does good with marriology.

[00:20:11]>> Mhm.

[00:20:13]>> But I'd put him Man, he's going to hate me. I'll put him on a I'll put him on a D tier to be honest.

[00:20:20]>> There you go. Sips. Sips with Sarah.

[00:20:22]Write your hate mail now.

[00:20:24]>> The only reason why is because I'm trying to think as a Protestant, would I be convinced by his videos? And I don't think I would. That's a good that's a good way to look at it. If you were a Protestant, would you be convinced by his videos?

[00:20:37]>> That's good. You know, I think I think sometimes that takes like, you know, people can people can give indepth arguments or whatever. Um, but I think for for most Protestants, you're going to need stuff with like brevity kind of short things they're going to remember or at least threads to pull. Um, and if we're if we're looking at these guys, yeah, I mean, I would agree. Probably D. Swan Sauna.

[00:21:04]>> I have no idea who this is.

[00:21:05]>> So, he did a couple of responses to Gavin. Um, he's done he's more like an academic type. He streams with Stephen Boyce, but he also said I don't know. I think I think he's okay.

[00:21:20]If you don't know who he is, I'm just going to slap him in C because I thought I think he's maybe like middle of the road here.

[00:21:27]>> Mhm.

[00:21:28]>> All right. Scott Han.

[00:21:31]I have a lovehate relationship with Scott Han. I've never talked to him personally, but I know I'm supposed to love him, but I don't find any of his stuff convincing.

[00:21:41]>> Mhm.

[00:21:42]>> That's like I read the first book I ever read by um a Catholic apologist was Roman Sweet Home. And this is when I first became a Christian. And I I did the same question. I was like, if I was not a Catholic, would I find this book convincing? And it was a similar feeling. And I was like, I don't think I would find it convincing.

[00:22:01]And there was um actually I think you you would appreciate this. They were talking about orthodoxy ones. I forget the context, but I feel like the the concept of orthodoxy being not united because of ethnicity is overblown sometimes.

[00:22:16]>> I saw that. I saw that he was the video he did the whole which church thing like he's like well which church are we talking about? How could it be one church if >> is it Greek or India or it's this Yeah.

[00:22:30]That's not the same here.

[00:22:33]>> Yeah.

[00:22:34]>> Well, it's like it's like okay you have jurisdictions. So you're what are you saying like which Catholic church are we talking Calaldian? We talking uh you know the Byzantine right? We talking TLM? Which one are we you know >> they're just saying they're in the union. So it's like it's not >> right >> it's the same church and that's what when I saw that I was like yeah this is this is a low argument.

[00:22:53]>> Yeah. So where would you put him on the list?

[00:22:58]>> I am People will definitely pay me for this. I'd put him D >> D tier.

[00:23:02]>> I'd agree just for that argument alone going off.

[00:23:05]>> Honestly that argument lowered it a lot for me too. I was like you can make an argument against orthodox. That was a bad one. That was a really bad one.

[00:23:12]>> That is a that is a bad argument. All right, the catacum.

[00:23:17]>> Ooh, I've only seen like two things, I think.

[00:23:23]And both of them were What were they?

[00:23:27]I know he did a debate with Redeem Zoomer once, but I really don't remember how that went.

[00:23:32]>> Mhm.

[00:23:34]>> I saw him do I've seen him do videos in the past, but none of them really stick into my mind. Like, I just like >> That's the thing. Yeah.

[00:23:42]>> Yeah. Like I've seen his stuff. It's just like I the only one I remember was he did some Minecraft video with Zoomer after they debated or something.

[00:23:52]But >> well Minecraft definitely lowers you a little bit.

[00:23:56]>> Minecraft Minecraft metric gives you automatic E tier.

[00:24:02]>> That's funny.

[00:24:03]>> That's worse than Tik Tok, honestly.

[00:24:06]>> All right. Where are we putting them?

[00:24:07]Where are we putting them? Uh, just because I don't know, I don't I might put D. Just because I don't I don't feel like if it's not memorable, it means it wasn't the best arguments.

[00:24:19]>> There you go. Yeah, I'd agree with that.

[00:24:21]If if if you if I've seen your videos, I just can't remember. Now, I don't have anything against this guy. Like, we have good interactions on X and stuff like this.

[00:24:29]>> Yeah.

[00:24:29]>> Um, but uh yeah, I really can't remember much. All right. Voice of Reason. Where are we putting him on the list?

[00:24:37]To be honest, I gotta put him either B or A.

[00:24:40]>> You got to put him B or A.

[00:24:42]>> I think he's really good.

[00:24:44]>> Regardless regardless of like >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:48]>> All that. But like the actual arguments I think are B or A.

[00:24:53]>> I mean, if I'm going to better if I'm going to compare him to William Alrech, I would have to admit he is a little better than William Alrech. So, I would agree with like a B.

[00:25:02]I would agree with a B. I'd say he's better than he's better than Alrech if he's the standard for this this whole >> the William Albre >> the William we're going off of the the Alrech standard. Okay, >> Alrech is a solid C. So above that would be a B. Way above that would be an A.

[00:25:18]There you go. This is the new >> this is the uh the new gold standard.

[00:25:23]>> New gold standard.

[00:25:26]>> This is the Albreight stand.

[00:25:27]>> Oh my goodness.

[00:25:30]>> All right, let's see. Um, since 3380.

[00:25:33]This is Kevin. Kevin, >> who is he?

[00:25:36]>> Kind of a newer guy on YouTube. Have you seen his stuff?

[00:25:39]>> I don't think so, cuz I'm trying to think of who has he debated.

[00:25:43]>> Uh, I don't know. I don't know that he's ever done a debate. He did a call-in on my show a while ago. Um, if you consider that a debate, I mean, he did a call-in to Jay and lost. He did a call-in on my show, and in my opinion, it was more like a conversation. And I don't think it would really be >> too much like a de debate. I mean, I guess it was kind of a debate, but there was like a panel and we're all discussing, but uh I don't know. He's kind of like he's like a he's like a quote mine YouTuber, so he tries to do like the whole quote mine thing. In my opinion though, he'll take this stuff out of context. So, I'm extremely biased on this. I would have to give him like a D just because it seems like when he does the quote mines, he misses the critique most of the time. A lot of Protestants really like him though because he's super nice to Protestants and he'll make arguments that debunk other bad like what he views to be a bad Catholic argument.

[00:26:42]>> So he's like almost doing their work for them sometimes. So Protestants like him, but I don't I don't think he's that good in all honesty. I haven't watched much of his stuff, so I wouldn't know.

[00:26:53]>> I'd say this based off of the video that he did responding to the Vatican 2 stuff. He was trying to conflate uh Jews and Muslims uh worshiping the same God as like the same thing. So, he's like, "If I could find somebody saying Jews worship the same God, then I could say Muslims worship the same God."

[00:27:09]And then the problem with that though is he grabbed like a whole bunch of quotes that were actually just talking about like Old Testament Jews and he's like look church fathers say the Jews were were worshiping God so therefore they're worshiping God now like Talmudic apostates.

[00:27:25]>> No it's not the same category.

[00:27:27]>> Well Christ wasn't there so obviously not. That's a whole different thing.

[00:27:31]>> Right. We're talking about pre-Christianity not the new religion of Talmetic Judaism. So >> yeah, >> uh I would I would give him a not a E.

[00:27:39]I'd give him a D. I'd give him a D.

[00:27:42]>> I just remember Voice of Reasons debate with James White. That was really good.

[00:27:47]>> Yeah, I think he did do he did do well on the James White debate.

[00:27:51]>> I don't know if there was another one if he did, but uh I remember the James White one was really good. He did one with He did one with Ben Benjamin Michael, Orthodox Luigi, and Yes, he got he got smoked so bad that uh Michael Loftton deleted the video off of his YouTube channel. I remember that.

[00:28:11]>> Really?

[00:28:12]>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I think uh I think I think uh Ben just did a reaction video to that, but Mike uh Mike Loftton took it off of the reason theology page because uh Vor lost and I guess people were bugging him about it, >> so he took the video down.

[00:28:26]>> I say that would be that would be one clear-cut one. I think he lost. I think I think Ubie did better in their debate, too. But then again, I think that was that was very high tier, the uh the Ubie the Ubie board, I think. All right, let's take a look.

[00:28:44]>> We got Wagner. I would personally I like Wagner. I think he's I think he's intelligent when it comes to like scholastic theology. I would probably put him in a a tier.

[00:28:55]>> He's he's he's definitely a I would agree.

[00:28:58]>> I'm going to put I'm going to put Wagner in a tier. I will say this though, he does not do good in debates at all. He is not a good debater, >> but I'd say like video content as far as like knowing his own like system of theology and at least like historic uh Roman Catholicism, I'd say he does better than most. Um >> I'm basing this off of his videos, too.

[00:29:24]I'm trying to think of a debate. I can't think of one that's like he done like amazing in. So, yeah.

[00:29:29]>> Well, he he says himself all the time that that's not his skill set. So, >> yeah, >> I don't think that's a controversial statement to say. Wagner says all the time, he's like, "H, I'm not a I'm not really a debater."

[00:29:40]>> Um, Matt Frad, he's not really a debater either. But he makes good points, though. I remember I went through a a Protestant phase when I first converted and I watched a video about um the early church fathers and he was quoting them and he and he was the way he did it was quite convincing. So, I definitely put him a B. You think you put him a B? But he doesn't do debates though. I'd give him I'd give him maybe a C. What do you think?

[00:30:06]>> Okay. C C's okay, too. I just think when he he doesn't do debates, but when he does talk about apolog Does he do Catholic specific apologetics? I've seen him do interviews.

[00:30:17]>> I feel like he's just a host of an interview. Yeah. I feel like he's just he just hosts interviews most of the time.

[00:30:22]>> Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, Wagner doesn't do debates, but I'd still put him a tier, but I don't think Matt I don't I don't know if I would put Matt Frad >> over uh Shameless Poperri or Trent Horn. I'd put him at like a C.

[00:30:37]>> No, Trent Horn's definitely better.

[00:30:40]>> All right, so we got um Religious Hippie.

[00:30:45]>> Uh yeah. Uh >> A tier for sure.

[00:30:49]>> Oh, yeah. That's >> top of the list. Number one. He's going to make everyone convert.

[00:30:55]I don't know. I think if Catholic Sam is a Dtier, then Religious Hippie has to be a Dtier.

[00:31:02]>> Sorry. Like just at the bottom.

[00:31:04]>> Fair enough. All we got Pinesap.

[00:31:07]>> Pinesap. Man, what happened to his Instagram?

[00:31:11]>> Did he Did he Did he get removed? I don't know.

[00:31:14]>> I don't know. I never followed him on Instagram. I've only ever seen him on like X and he just got back on YouTube this year. So, those are the only two places I've seen him.

[00:31:25]>> Pine Pineapp's okay. I don't see him do a lot of Has he done debate debates? I saw him on Jubilee. That was pretty cool. He debated he debated Jay twice and lost.

[00:31:38]>> Oh, did he debate Jay?

[00:31:40]>> He debated Yeah, he also debated Danny Phil Talk.

[00:31:44]>> Uh the the atheist guy.

[00:31:48]>> I haven't watched that one either. I watch I didn't know Pinesap did debates.

[00:31:51]I just I knew him for the memes on Instagram. That was my my main source of pineapp if he were doing a a If we were doing a meme chart, where would he be on here?

[00:32:03]>> He'd be beat your memes.

[00:32:06]>> But as far as Catholic apologetics, what do you think? C.

[00:32:09]>> Yeah, I'd say C would be the highest.

[00:32:13]>> All right. Would you say Well, the highest. So, would you put him D or would you put him C?

[00:32:19]C minus. If if there was a way to put a C minus, I'd put a C minus.

[00:32:24]>> I don't know if I would say he's better than Jesus and whatnot in Alrech.

[00:32:30]>> But I can't picture him doing what Jesus and whatnot does. Like, I just don't picture that. Like, he doesn't make those videos, does he?

[00:32:39]>> No, I don't think so. I'm gonna put him D. I think that's fair. I think that's fair. I don't think I don't think he's as good as Alrech or uh Jesus and whatnot. He doesn't really do I mean his content is really is focused on that kind of thing I think.

[00:32:54]Right. Jesus and whatnot. He is trying >> Yeah, that's that's his main thing.

[00:32:58]>> All right, last one on the list. Eric Ibara. What do you think?

[00:33:03]>> I think he's pretty good. Um everyone thinks he's really good against orthodoxy. I think he's better than most people, but I don't think he's as amazing people make him out to be for orthodoxy.

[00:33:16]>> I agree. I think he um I think he is he's trying to be more academic.

[00:33:24]>> Um I might do I might do a response to his PSA book. I'm considering doing that. I haven't checked that out. But I've had I've had people tell me that they read his papacy book that was supposed to debunk orthodoxy. And when they read this and they were like, "This is like this was touted as like the best >> the like the the Catholics had against orthodoxy." I know somebody who literally converted to Orthodoxy because of Ibara's book >> that I know in real life, not somebody online. So, I don't know. I I agree with you. I don't think he's as good as some people say he is. I will say this though, the debate that he had with Ubie Petrus, >> Ubie won. Ubie definitely won in my opinion, but that was probably the highest tier papacy debate I'd ever seen in my entire life.

[00:34:14]>> It was >> I would agree.

[00:34:15]>> Super indepth. It was uh it was excellent format. Matt Frad, good job hosting that.

[00:34:21]>> Um it was entertaining, but it was so deep in the weeds I had to like stop and take notes. Mhm. So, >> I remember reading the comments for that one. Everyone was like, "Who's side one?" And everyone was just like, "Yep."

[00:34:33]Like, we don't know.

[00:34:34]>> We got no idea what's going on.

[00:34:35]>> So specific.

[00:34:37]I never even heard this stuff.

[00:34:39]>> Super high tier. So, um I don't know. I'm thinking B or C.

[00:34:45]>> I think B. I think because he he's able to do those things, it puts him up there.

[00:34:51]People are going to be mad at me for putting him be, but I think I think I I think I I will just for just for the Ubie Ibara debate, I think that was kind of a more high tier debate. Even though I think he lost, I still think he's better than William Alrech. If Alrech is the gold standard, >> then I gota I got to give him just a little bit above. It's better than saying um orthodoxy is ethnore religious denominations. So >> that is very true. That is >> yeah you can't you can't um >> yeah you can't you can't get much worse than that I think. Well I think you can but that's pretty bad.

[00:35:34]>> All right so here's our tier list. So we've got Jimmy Aken Christian Wagner at a tier.

[00:35:41]>> I don't know if I agree with Jimmy but I'm gonna let it I'm gonna let it slide.

[00:35:44]I'm gonna let it sit there. B tier, we've got Joe Heshmire, Trent Horn, Sam Shimone, Voice of Reason, Eric Ibara. Ct here tier. We got the Alrech Standard here. William Alrech, Eric, uh, Cameron Bertusi, Divine Mercy, Jesus and Whatnot, Loftton, the Loft Dog right there, Swan Sauna, Matt Frad. Dtier, we got Llaya Rose. Um, Brian Holdzsworth.

[00:36:15]Yep. Sips. Um, uh, remind me again, Scott Han.

[00:36:21]>> Scott Han. Yep.

[00:36:22]>> Yep. the catechuman since 33 AD. Kevin pines sap and then an E tier Catholic Sam.

[00:36:31]Why? Why'd you put him E? That's so >> I'm sorry, bro.

[00:36:36]>> I can't do I can't take it seriously if he's anything iron.

[00:36:41]>> It's the Instagram. This is the Instagram effect.

[00:36:44]>> Like I see him post on Instagram like you can't be an actual debater. Like >> I got to delete my Instagram immediately. It's over. All right. Uh Trent Doerty and then religious hippie.

[00:36:56]All right. Here is our infallible tier list.

[00:37:00]>> Vatican 3 guys.

[00:37:02]>> So there you go. All right, man. Well, hey, I appreciate you swinging by the show. This was fun, dude.

[00:37:07]>> 100%. That was great.

[00:37:08]>> You got anything you want to plug uh before we wrap up here?

[00:37:12]>> No, just uh if anyone visit my channel, I of Arabia and can check it out. And same thing with Instagram, which makes me not on a tier ever because I'm always have to be at least one low. So if anyone ever makes an ex-Muslim tier list, I'll never be on top because >> there you go.

[00:37:29]>> Wonderful. All right. Well, if you want to go subscribe to his channel, check it out in the description. Thanks again so much for coming on. Until next time.

[00:37:35]>> See you.