Technology without inherent limits inevitably encroaches upon human agency and autonomy, as unlimited systems (like AI models, social media platforms, and digital tools) continuously expand their influence into every aspect of human life without natural stopping points. This 'limitless technology' problem represents a fundamental challenge to human flourishing because it removes the boundaries that traditionally defined human experience, decision-making, and social interaction. The solution requires recognizing that meaningful human life depends on deliberate limitations, intentional boundaries, and the preservation of human agency over technological systems.
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CJ The X Kills Jreg and Art Chad (With Love)Added:
Has your viewership did your viewership get go up when you cut guest out?
>> Uh, yes.
>> Yeah. I'd say you did like the impressive like like thing where it's like like something like almost like a like septic or or aesthetic or like you're like you're like I'm just going to like no guess like we're just going to grind this. We're going to get this.
You know what I mean? You went went less in a way.
>> Yeah. Total guest death. That's what Broen kept saying.
>> Yeah.
>> It was good. It was so good for the pod.
>> It was good for the pod. The views are much more consistent now.
>> And you said the comment that I left about it became a meme in the comments.
>> Yeah. The comment you left about no guest became like a copy pasta in the comments.
>> It's something like the craziest arc cutting out the guest and then the podcast gets actually good. I think that was the Yeah, >> it was sick.
>> Leave that in the comments.
>> It's true. I actually get excited to listen to your podcast now.
>> Yeah, it's fun.
>> It used to be more chaos mode like >> people are here for us ultimately.
>> Yeah, >> which is I mean it's pros and cons. I liked guests cuz we have so many interesting people behind.
>> No, but but this is the problem. Like I think this is the the thing that was not the reason I was not excited to listen to a podcast episode in the past was because it was like too much of the uh like JREG openness openness desire for chaos lack of structure where it's like random zany characters that may or may not be worth anyone's time. But like when you guys buckled down it was just you two. I feel like both of your personalities became more clear and like it just got started getting better over time the way that a thing does when you work on it without introducing new elements every second. You know what I mean?
>> I agree. I I second that.
>> Are you still mad about it?
>> Mad about what?
>> I don't know. You seem mad about something >> about what? What would I be mad about?
You said mad about it. What are you talking about? I'm just curious. It's a question.
>> I suppose my implicit like uh critique of you. It was side of that. Like I'm reminded of the first time we did like a a show together and I was trying to rehearse and you kept being like let's not let's not rehearse.
>> I don't want to.
>> And then it was worse.
>> No, it was better. It was You rehearsed plenty for your bit and I didn't rehearse at all for mine.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, anyways. Anyways, um congratulations on the podcast. That's what I was asking if you were mad about the the being forced to uh like uh >> kill my guests, >> forced to exercise restraint or seriousness of some kind and then to be getting better but like against your will.
>> Um yeah, I mean we've even just me and Broen, we've got good episodes and bad episodes.
>> I didn't like that Epstein episode.
>> You didn't like the Epstein episode?
>> That's probably my least favorite one.
>> I like I like I think I remember liking that one.
>> Yeah, >> that one did well, too.
>> I know. I just didn't like it. I just thought it was bad. Why?
>> Cuz like I don't know. I don't have anything. I just didn't have anything to say.
>> You had a lot of dopamine.
>> We can do it again.
>> But that was kind of hilarious though.
Like cuz that's the thing is like your characters are coming into more you know what I mean? Like there's been shining moments for each of you where one of like like there could be an episode where it's just Broen explaining something Broen style and then like you had the one where like Broen left the pod and that was fantastic.
>> Oh, thank you.
>> People in my community were talking about that. They were like, "Have you seen it?" It's like kind of it's art.
It's art.
>> Yeah. It was really impressive that you >> I got a message from one of my one of my uh acquaintances and he he was watching it and sending me advice and he was like listen man I get it like it's tough stuff uh stuff happens and you know I I feel really bad that Broen left and then he finished the podcast he was like I can't watch your stuff anymore and I was like that's fair. It was really good.
You started channeling some good stuff.
I always love I think I like you I I've always thought I think I've told you this before but I think you're like a really strong actor really. Like I think I like you in a performance context where there's a scene, you know what I mean? And you're like revealing like a a person's psychology, but there's with some remove. So it's just like your kind of power of observation and categorization and mockery is working as like character study.
>> Mhm. When do you like me the least?
>> When I'm trying to rehearse something and you're making it worse.
>> Fair enough.
>> But yeah, I don't know. I I could think of a better answer than that. But that's that's probably >> I'm doing I'm doing a tour with Value Select who's very uh very conscientious like you and loves doing the same thing over and over again and and then he's like, "What are you doing for the openers for these six shows?" And I was like, "I don't know. I'll probably make something up like different each show."
>> Yeah.
>> [ __ ] hell.
>> This is a crazy skill. Like just good improv.
>> I like it. I Well, this is where this is where we differ. This is partly why we're rivals. You're top down and you're like I'm God on stage and I'm bottom up.
Like let's see what happens. Let's like see what emerges from the crowd. That's why I do like an anti-clanker rallying and just like, okay, let's see what the energy is like.
>> Yeah. But this is also like where I was like um that's also the reason that like you you're able to do the studio like as we've discussed like your openness to experience and lack of sort of top down control uh simultaneously is like >> the I'm like I'm like it's it's the I could not do it. I could not do it. I could not do the community building thing that you've done really. Um, so you know, I mean, I knew I I was I became friends with the person yesterday.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You've become real real good friends with the ASMR girl, Tessa.
>> Yeah.
>> Always slightly sleepy.
>> She's back.
>> You guys have been grilling out.
>> Yeah, we hung out. It was really fun. It was We had a great conversation.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And well, and and and one of the things you >> She's smart as [ __ ] It was really interesting. Yep.
>> Yeah. One of the things you guys were talking about was uh our weaknesses.
>> Oh, how why how do you know about that?
Cuz you know about that that night. She said she said she came back and she was like she was like I was like CJ told me all your weaknesses and I didn't know I didn't know if CJ if that she meant that CJ had said my weaknesses or the CC CRU's weaknesses and probably both. I I was um um I was I was I was I was providing desired information. No, but I think it was probably because I ended up with the joke at some like we're rivals so you can go say tell tell them that I was I was trying to destroy you.
>> Yeah, you you do have you have you have special privileges. I feel like uh Tessa has been a sort of pro like a cold war, a proxy war.
>> Yeah, that's like our our like Crimea or whatever.
>> Yes, we do have a Patreon exclusive episode with with Tessa almost sleepy and CJ.
>> That was a while ago >> right now. It's up. It's up.
>> And net loss.
>> And net loss. That's a crazy.
>> It was such an insane thing. And try the Can you imagine these people trying to do ASMR?
>> Yeah, it was was >> Or even me. But at least I I can I I feel like I have the sincerity of effort to give. Like I like fitting into a frame. It's true.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Whispering.
>> Well, >> we were discussing that. It was something also that um like ASMR even >> like like there's like I'm non-binary ontologically ontologically >> as established. Um but I was we me and uh me and Sly were actually were talking about that too just a few things about just different like gender dynamic things. And one of them was like um that some of the ways that I like socialize are more feminine which is why like um you know like we gravitated together like in the studio first time we met and that like um anyways yeah so like so like there's there's some sometimes there's like that but then there's some things that I'm distinctly not and I was asking was like where do you think that line is and one of the things that she was like she's like I feel like you probably would never like go ooh like do like a cute small thing >> like like trinkets get excited about trinkets and I was like absolutely red for filth like I would that makes me feel more like a man than anything is when >> interesting ladies looking at a calico critter going like I'm like stop it.
>> Do you like little creatures?
>> No, I don't. Well, I don't know.
Creatures are >> little mammals >> like Yeah. Yeah. Cute animals are >> like stouts and weasels.
>> I don't like you. Okay. I remember when we the when we went to VidCon in 2024. I remember that I was looking over your shoulder on the plane and your feed was just all cute animals. Like it was so And I was like, is that just I didn't realize that you had this whimsical >> Well, I like little creatures.
>> Cute animals and gore. Now the gore is gone. It's now and now it's it's AI doom and creatures.
>> Okay, interesting.
>> That makes sense. That's it was half of like whatever it was that you were researching like economics politics [ __ ] and then half just like cute animals. I was like that is adorable to know about >> the cleanse.
>> You need the cleanse on on the timeline.
>> The horrors and the cleanse perfectly balanced >> that the gore the gore was replaced with AI Doom. That's sort of fitting.
>> It's a different kind of gore.
>> It is.
>> Yeah. It's it's gore with a shape because gore has no shape. Gore is just like gore.
>> Right.
>> Right. But AI Dream is a is a shape, >> you know.
>> What's >> I intuitively understand what you're saying.
>> I don't >> You don't >> explain.
>> I understand. I also understand that it doesn't make any sense, but I intuitively also understand what you're saying.
>> Well, because gore gore has no narrative. Gore is gore.
>> Um well, we'll get we'll get into the cerebral topics, but first I do want to I think the most interesting thing to me is we've known each other for 3 years.
>> Yeah. I was feeling emotional when I was looking at like the couch and the things and I was remembering the first time that we did the horseshoe thing. It's 2 years ago.
>> Yeah.
>> This this place didn't exist. I had gone on any like lecture tours. I never done I'd never done a lecture.
>> Wow. Yeah. A lot's happened.
>> I think I had 6,000 subscribers.
>> Yeah. You didn't you weren't even like a YouTuber.
>> I was I was because I'm I'm a jerk. I was also I was I was like what is this?
This is >> Yeah. Who's this guy?
>> You're starting a studio with somebody that was like what what you know. But the Archad videos have gotten good too.
You got you got y'all have progressed.
>> Yeah. Now I'm full-time and sad.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You you shouldn't have quit bartending.
>> I should not have quit bartending. But what >> you were so happy bartending like >> Yeah. It didn't really make any sense cuz you like loved your job and then you're like I have to quit it to look at the computer more.
>> I do. I travel a lot. I travel a lot more now and I'm I'm often when I'm somewhere else I'm grateful for the fact I can just be somewhere else whenever. I do feel like I was just like the video essay that I'm making right now is like about tech and just like the tech industry and about like different um sort of the hostile architecture of the online world and like how it like it shouldn't feel like you're being scammed and subverted in your agency everywhere you look all the goddamn time. But like and then it ends with like a big thing about the Californian ideology and sort of the evolution of the economics and cultural forces at play here. And we could talk about alcoholism and attachment to that cuz I was thinking about you earlier today. But um like it's a bummer. I was I while I was writing it like I was I was like I'm not it's like this is work you know what I mean because the talk about serious like it is it does suck like when you become an internet person and the things the particular sort of cultural or political issues or like tech issues that you're like researching was like wow your life is like it's not fun you're not making art you know what I mean you're not like doing cool fun stuff you know it's like you know >> feels heavy >> no yeah I did I feel that I did three I guess four >> backtoback AI videos and especially like midway through the fourth one, I was like, "Oh, like" like like the salience of everything hit me. I'm like, "Oh, I'm like I'm no longer just making things I think are interesting." Right? When you're like when you're like 20 and you're talking about like schizoeconomic theories and like philosophy and it's like, "Oh, these are all such interesting frameworks and ideas and they become real and then they become real and you're like, this is no longer like Nick Land was fun in 2018 and it's not fun anymore." Now it's like I know it's like if I had a brain tumor. I made all my videos about having a brain tumor and about cancer. I'm like, "Oh, this is real, right?" And it's it get it does just get like heavy and it's like you you finish these like long writing or research sessions and you're like, "Fuck, I need to like wash myself."
>> Yeah. And then that shower and then that climax in your AI psychosis.
>> It did climax into AI psychosis.
>> Did you actually get I was think I'm considering I was um Okay. Yesterday I have to admit something. Yesterday for the first time I used Claude for a research thing and it and it worked well.
>> Yeah.
>> Because every I've ever every once in a while I've uh like I I've like intermittently like got like tried something on AI and immediately gotten like either a sick feeling like don't like this at all or like it just didn't work or whatever or I've just never used it because I don't like have a need for it. But there was a specific thing where it was um there's this argument that Jiren Laneir uh thing that he was talking about that's something from the Lex Fubin podcast that I remember that I was I was I wanted to so like Jiren Laneir was talking about how like the uh advertiser model like the ad money that is being spent by all the companies through social media and like Google like it's this massive like billions and billions trillion dollar industry of ad spending that like the business the the business strategy obviously It's described as like engage persuade. So it's like they're free. Uh so they suck up all of your attention and you spend all of your time on them and then you sell your attention to advertisers and marketers who then use that to try to get you to buy things, right? So it's like you spend and then you get an investment on. So Jar Laneir was saying that like the um uh that the persuade bit basically didn't work that like everyone has basically kind of realized that it's like oh we don't they're spending this money you don't get good return on your investment through the advertising thing like that people don't actually go and buy things.
It's not a very effective it's a big kind of like money sync but at this point it's like more like attentional cognitive blackmail where if you don't spend that then you don't exist anymore because everyone's there. So it's it's actually not like an investment of a regular advertising investment that gets a return on sales. It's just one that you have to pay like like a rent like due, you know, like like to to to your lege or whatever, you know, in order if you want to exist as a business at all in anyone's brains. And so I was there was this very specific claim, right? And I was like I was it became it was a perfect use for for an AI a language model thing because I was like I kind of like I like transcript the thing and talk about like the um my interpretation of that thing and then I was like is I I just need to generate like 20 examples of whether or not this is true. Like what's the conversation about this? Like where's the counterpoint? You know what I mean? Where's the you know what I mean? I don't have the the like cultural sort of um prestige or access to know like which business insider thing about which oh what's the word for when it goes public like PO IPO whatever from what company or the ad spends and you know I just had no way to do it and uh and then that that went a few levels in because like I was able to like keep refining the thing and then I I have like 25 sources that I can go look at later so I have to admit that and then I was I texted Aya about it that I was like I use the the AI for something and it was good. Yeah. And she was like, "Do you ever I was like, "Am I'm ah am I having AI psychosis? I'm getting AI psychosis cuz I enjoyed the AI." And she was like, "Do you want to have AI psychosis?" I was like, "Maybe I should go on my AI psychosis era."
>> Oh, really? Just like full full Like you used Claude once and then you lose your mind.
>> Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm That's how I feel right now. Like a person that never drank alcohol that like a sip and I'm like ah Oh. Uh >> I Yeah. I'm actually surprised you went that long without using Claude. I feel like we're at the point I'm genuinely like because I mean I feel like I've been using AI forever really.
>> Um yeah and I'm I'm anti- clanker.
People think this means that I'm anti AI. I'm anti the [ __ ] robots wanting rights and you know that's a very particular like them walking around and like impeding on my personal space but being used as a tool. I mean I've always been I've always been using that. I feel like um AI is going to be like uh like being anti-generative AI in like all cases is going to be sort of like a Taylor Lauren issue where in like five years there will be some people but it's going to be like very strange like still wearing the mask to be and also I should say we love Taylor Loren now.
>> Yeah, >> we do love Taylor. She's been endlessly vindicated on everything incredibly >> I my my immune system is actually worse.
I can tell I genuinely >> Yeah. And she's been doing some really good reporting. But anyway, that's I I just do I think it's going to be sort of like the last Japanese soldier with uh with being anti-generative AI like on the island.
>> Do you use it in your life?
>> I use Perplexity. Yeah.
>> What is Perplexity?
>> Perplexity is like >> one of them >> it's the it's an aggregate of like all the like second most recent models from the big frontier companies.
>> Oh, so it's like like one of these like anthropic like harm reduction type shits or something or >> No, no, it's like a it's just like a its biggest asset is research. It's like a deep research tool.
>> Okay. Okay. It's specifically Okay.
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, it's mean it's incredibly and like yeah, I've never been anti- AI outright. Like I'm not alluded about it.
I'm like have very specific issues with the industry and where it's going, but it's like I don't like I'm not anti- AAI. Um, and it's a great tool. I remember like the first time I used it, I was doing a video on Italian Futurism and I was talking about this like riot that happened in 1919 and I was like, "Find me a newspaper article from 1919 from newspapers.com and it just found it." I was like, "Oh, that's like that would have taken me half an hour to find."
>> And it's a primary source. It's not hallucination. It's like a literal scan of a newspaper from 1919.
>> And like for for me like when it came to like the idea of like trying to find like uh related sources to Jiren Laneir's critique of the advertiser model return on investment like through like it's like it was such a it was too specific of a slice like I wouldn't have been able to and then they also genuinely I think there is the initification of like the Google thing like I think it is worse and they made it worse. Uh, it's I I just I do feel bad though where it's like like because that I feel like people expect needed me or expected me to be the Taylor Ren's holdout on AI. I should do it forever.
And so I'm feeling like am I going to be am I am I letting everyone down if I used it once and it worked.
>> No, it was never going to be you. It was never going to be any of us probably.
We're we're too tech I don't know. We're too like interested in the way things are right now.
>> Yeah. I always end up in like mild debates with Aya about this because Aya >> does she use it?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Like >> really? Wow. Sessa's >> not. It's been like life changing for her. She's like she's like feels like she says like she's like unlocked like whole worlds for her. I can't imagine going without >> [ __ ] [ __ ] >> It's useful. I think pretending it's not useful is like stupid and it's like >> no they do like and then when I'm in like bay the Bay Area with like the rationalist people or like the anti like the AI doomer people that like I do like some consulting stuff with um cuz my take I think we we already talked about this, right? I think that the AI doomers, the leftists should embrace the AI doomers in terms of governmental control over uh unregulated economic cancer.
>> You can convert them.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's I feel like that's my job is I look for like I look for slices like good coalition things. Um the [ __ ] was I saying >> using AI using AI?
>> Well, they they do like live it like it is like like that especially that culture it's like they I think their lives have been changed by it. I'm sure it's been changed.
>> Yeah.
>> It's so obvious what's happening. It makes you feel really productive.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> It makes you feel like you're you've unlocked new worlds of productivity and you're just 10 times more productive.
But then um everyone's too autistic and on stimulants to realize that they're not.
>> I I I noticed that as well immediately.
So, like even like last night where it's like the um the feeling of like it worked the first time and then I went a few layers deeper because I I was because um talking about this um uh basically I'm trying to like draw together a thread of like the this sort of like um my the my argument at the at the end of this video which I can't I'm giving away but like is that it people's uh conception even my own in 2021 of that the profit incentive is a thing that makes the tech industry quite evil.
and especially the profit incentive linked up with the attention economy.
>> This is one of your best points >> because that that idea is that like the when when when uh for-profit companies make a freeto use service and the profit comes from engaging us endlessly, they're literally sucking our attention like our very being as much as they can out and selling that to the highest bidder. And this dynamic that makes all of us worse and like takes away our agency and our humanity because they're literally reaching into like our conscious experience and like the seconds of your day like your life and they're just taking as much of it as possible algorithmically and and that's that. So when that becomes a thing that you're selling, that's becomes a very evil thing about the profit incentive.
But I think this is an outdated thing now because I'm starting I believe especially AI like like open AI is the most obvious uh blatant example of this um where like >> but but this is the crystallization of something that's been happening in Silicon Valley for like many many years now that I see more clearly as I don't think it is about profit anymore. I think that it's just like >> well I call it Sauron behavior. I think that they don't give a [ __ ] about profit. They're not even looking at making profit perspectively in the future. They just want to make the thing that everybody is using so that they have the power because you when you have the power, you just have the power. It doesn't [ __ ] matter. I don't think that like, you know what I mean? Like OpenAI doesn't give a [ __ ] about like, you know, they they they care about having millions as a byproduct. Just like whatever. You know what I mean? And because they got they're so used to it, they can't imagine not having millions of dollars of [ __ ] [ __ ] right? But the but but I I I don't think that they long any longer have a plan or necessarily an interest or value of actually making companies that are profitable eventually. I don't think they give a [ __ ] at all. And even like the bird scooter was probably the most laughable version of this, right? Like this is like um they they're just like lighting money on fire like millions and millions to subsidize [ __ ] and send it out. Like they just take So the problem is sorry I'm yelling already. I'm doing the thing already. But like the problem is it's just these different tech billionaires giving each other billions of dollars and then they like supercharge blitzcale a thing and give it to everybody at dirt cheap or for free. They force it on you and so like AI like you know AI did this like it just appeared in all of your things.
They forced it on us and they're like billions and billions of dollars on fire to just make it happen and then they get everyone hooked on and everyone using it and then the fact that everyone's using it lets them go get another round of VC funding. So more billions and each time that the VC guys invest billions then the stock price goes up.
>> So it's like looks like it's making everyone richer in the but there's no money. There's no profit%.
>> It's insane. They never sold anything.
They never So I don't think they I think they've learned this they've they've taken this lesson in so deep now that I don't think they have any interest. They don't give a [ __ ] about if it ever turns profit. It doesn't mean anything. It's just getting the VC funding stock price going up. It makes the millionaires like the bird scooter [ __ ] They made millions just because of those VC expansion moments, even though it ended with like a 99.9% loss on investment. It didn't mean anything. It's insane.
>> No, it's literally insane. You're 100% right. This is my my argument against like the the bubble people, too, who are like, "Oh, it's a bubble." I'm like, "No, the economy is broken." Like, like a bubble can't happen anymore. There's no bubble. It's not going to crash.
>> Exactly. That That's too I think Yeah.
To say it's a bubble, I think, is too hopeful that the there's going to be consequences for Sauron behavior. I don't think I'm not sure there will be because I think that like these these [ __ ] run the world and they're just giving each other billions just so they can keep power. It's insane.
>> And money was always just like, you know, for the for the history of like modern capitalism since like the industrial revolution was just the conduit to power. It was just the intermediary, right? It was like people had power outright and now you could get money to get power. And we're going back to you don't need money anymore. you can just have power >> cuz if you did I mean CT Nuin like the philosopher said this after we did a show together in in New York um where we were he gave a few different theories oh [ __ ] I actually can't that was what he said basically is that like if you need like if money works as a tool to have power in that like you don't have to ask people for permission and you can make people do your bidding and you're exempt from certain like consequences and stuff if you no longer need money you can just have that which it seems like they have then like why do you need money?
>> Yeah, why it's just extra work? No, literally like working for money is like is is poor people's [ __ ] That's insane.
Like I I this at this point I'm like I'm like I feel like capitalism is like at this point I'm like I would love some capitalism. That's like my radical left desire at this point. It's just some nor meritocracy having to like make goods or provide services in exchange for money.
>> Yeah. Value like you add value concept of value adding value to society and being compensated for financially. Like at that at this point I'm like I'm like >> it turns out money was too democratic.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. I do think so.
>> No. And what what you're saying I always felt with Uber Eat specifically being in the restaurant industry for so long is like what you're what you're talking about but like >> getting things it's like colonization where like no one asks all you wake up one day I wake up in Halifax, Nova Scotia and all of a sudden Uber Eats is in my city and no one owns it. It's there's no there's no Uber Eatats headquarters. There's no Helaggonian or Nova Scotian running the C. It's just a thing that appears that now takes 20% of every restaurant. Yep.
>> And then we can't get rid of it.
>> Yeah. And so they have this incentive, right? Because they do the VC fundraising thing for the Silicon Valley guys that are all looking for the next like u SAR on behavior activity, the next thing that they can own that everyone is is like using, you know, and so then they they they just burn the billions that they can throw away to make it so that it is everyone is using it. Like that's there's no that's the so it's like only marketing to Silicon Valley guys. It's interior marketing, right? Just to other billionaires. It's never selling to people. Like it's never like cuz the idea is people are supposed to be like, "Oh, like oh they're make you make a bunch of money because you provide a lot of value to a lot of people." And I can kind of see that when it comes to like Walmart even, you know what I mean? Like I can I used to be able to buy that.
Like that makes sense. But I just think that part that step is completely out the window because you just have to provide value to the other tech billionaires that all live in the Bay Area. Yeah. Jacking each other off.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I know. It's like uh especially with the I don't know. I'm not going to be completely like black on on AI is like a valueless tool. I think if you have the right I don't know like inclination and but not even not even though because it's like nothing being built right now is good like the companies that are coming out of like uh like claw code and codecs being democratized where you can where like now anybody with any background can start a start a company or or make software it's still not like good so it's not doing anything it's like everyone in San Francisco selling a shovel but no one's digging holes >> because like I think this is um this guy [ __ ] I wish I remember this guy's name is this technology explained dude um that I watch honestly It was uh just like a a maybe I think maybe maybe even I think maybe even I don't want to miss misattribute but like I I was thinking that maybe even Jane was the one that sent it to me. I'm not sure but it's something about like just someone explaining a dishwasher and like dish detergent and it was just like so gripping. So, I started watching this guy that just explains tech stuff, but he had a video about this stuff about like the AI boom and technology not working for you and the deterioration of our own cognitive capacity um you know out of outsourcing to to like technology like letting go of our own ability to even understand our technology or do work ourselves, right? So, he had a video about that but and concluded with the thought he was like the what the reason the like we're being sold like these like basically the sentence was the problem of computing is solved.
That's the thing. There's nothing to sell that like like cameras, computers, microphones. We did it.
>> It's in storage. It's done. Like we solved it. So there's nothing there is no new value. We could stop it all right now. We have such insane technology.
>> I mean I mean this is this is the course of the last hundred years is like >> we have to solve complicated problems not build more powerful computers.
That's crazy.
>> Yeah. Cuz there's all these like like then they say like the world of bits and the world of atoms. The world of atoms the issue with it is like the issue with it in context to like you know making software is the world of the you know the real world has like one step solutions like refrigeration you can invent refrigeration once you can't make better refrigeration it was like we can't refrigerate food now we can education um in the 1900s it was like or like in 1900 it was like under 20% or just over 20% of Americans graduated high school by 2000 it was like 95%.
That's a one jump. That's one jump, right? So like that's the real world has these one jumps where software you can like increasingly like create these like giant pits of complexity to solve and then market your solutions and it's like this down world self-reerential like recursive spiral, right? It's it's [ __ ] insane.
>> And it takes you away from the real world problems cuz the problem is like education for example, right? Like um yeah, like the the onestep solution that that exists now and that's cool, right?
But we do have kind of endlessly difficult human problems to work out with it. Like no one's gonna say educ like like higher education for example like universities are doing well. You know what I mean?
>> Or even like or even like Yeah.
>> But these are thorny problems that like that that that take like a lot of people just disagree like it's the it's it's a non uh technocratically designable solution that you need, right? Like the um the what's what's dope about um Okay, sorry. I got these two streams crossed and I'm trying to extract them from each other. like how far back should I go on this? Okay, so the fridge thing for example, right?
So Ivon Illich is um uh like a tech sociologist, historian, philosopher person from the 70s that he coin he did this book tools for conviviiality that like discusses a lot of the things that we're talking about here. It has words for it, right? But one of them is uh like his argument is that a technology that does not have limits um will inevitably turn us into surfs. And this is in 1973 he wrote this, which is crazy, right? But the point is is the opposite of that. He says it's convivial technology which is one that is limited and that that's good. It actually incre because that increases human agency. But technology that doesn't have limits it necessarily starts encroaching upon our agency. So a hammer or a fridge these are the two examples that I would the hammer was his example. Fridge was one I used he probably used I don't know but like these are limited technologies right a hammer is useful for hammer things and it doesn't have Bluetooth and like it doesn't show you ads and try to convince you to use a hammer for everything, right? And same with a fridge, right? fridge doesn't think that it's doing more than it's doing like it's a technology with an endpoint right and as such it's like these are like convivial technologies that are positive towards human flourishing and we can interact with them and use them in like human ways but like the what example that I was using was like I have an alarm clock right like a physical alarm clock but I had to get one and the reason was because when the phone becomes your alarm clock like it is for a lot of people phone has no limits right it doesn't stop when you stop using the alarm clock function it just keeps taking and taking and taking right and so these are like these these this is a different kind of thing, right? So I I don't know that that's the and and the the useful like the problem of these technologies without limits like the when they think that they are for everything like like let's say Twitter or yeah your phone or like the AI models or yeah these software spiraling endlessly down is there's some like like when you when you rely on those like endless technology things like sometimes it takes you away from human problems that are not technologically solvable and I think that's the thing that's what's useful about limited technologies is it lets you look at like some problems that it's like you can't design your way out of this when you're like endlessly going down into the software thing. Like that's what the Silicon Valley people that's what the the the that tech culture out there sincerely kind of believes, right? Is we're going to design democracy like we're just going to fix it like top down. We'll just design like a technology or a business or something that is going to out compete the schools. How many times have you [ __ ] seen that, right? Like the research AI or whatever, right? But it's like some of these problems are not solvable through design. Some of them are like humans because they're human social problems. They're like or they're cultural problems or political problems.
Like so that problem is going to remain.
It's like you and I have to sort this out. We have to talk to each other and deal with that discomfort. Like this kind of unsexy plotting through problem solving because that's the thing that you said earlier that like the the AI thing where it's like people think they're being more productive. I did feel that like I I can't admit that that I was I I got clarity and a source on the bird scooter thing from the AI from the claude thing. But also I felt like as I was refining the point like as I was like I kept pulling up like the different examp because because I think it goes like um I was starting with like the the the AI the advertiser model thing kind of like the burning cash thing and then I was going to like the bird scooters and these VC companies that fail and they just light money on fire and then to like the AI thing where they're not even pursuing any like you know at all. Um, like I I I felt like as my point was getting sharper, like also I was like, "Fuck, I've also just been like like I'm not reading these paragraphs as cleanly either, right?"
And then when you finish reading the paragraph and then you get go on to your next thing and you go like, "Oh my god, like I'm seeing the vision." I was like, "Oh, I'm actually gettingosis." You know what I mean? Like I feel like the more that this thing could know about me, I'm getting more sometimes just marveling at the thing. And like it's kind of narcissist staring at your own reflection or something. But it's like am I? And I have that whole chat. Like the point is I'm supposed to go back and like reread that whole thing a few times and check out every source, right? But it's too exciting and endless right there at the bottom where you kind of want to keep going. And I'm like, how many times do people feel like they did a bunch of research or learned a big thing, but they didn't really sit with it and they just kind of, you know what I mean? Like it feels like that, but it didn't stay. Which is again, this is like the the human problem that requires like friction. This is what education is supposed to be with people. You know what I mean? And like like that's why why why it's significant, right? because you have to sit with things for a while even when you don't think and you have I don't know. Do you know what I mean?
Like I there's this endless I feel like it's not Anyways, I I just agree. I felt that feeling of like, oh, I feel like I'm learning and that this is really helpful and exactly the point, but also I feel like I didn't do it.
>> Yeah.
>> And like I I'm not it's not sticking and I feel the temptation to keep like instead of >> Yeah. It kind of becomes like I definitely got that with uh >> Yeah. like using AI for research is it stops becoming like you're learning a thing and it's like I'm now just augmented by this other thing that's learning or this other thing that knows that I'm just like I'm just grabbing pieces out of >> instead of like doing it myself like I'm just it's more of like an augmentation than like it making you better as a person.
>> So and that that's the point of like the limitation thing, right? So, like I had that positive experience and and I I did and again later that night I was working with some like music hardware like I have like a like a voc like a like a sampler and like a vocal like autotune and pedals and just doing like gear and signal path [ __ ] that was going and for some reason like the lead vocal wasn't coming out of the a TC Helagon. Anyways, the point is I I did I used the claude again I because I was like why the [ __ ] is this not like have you read this manual basically right? And uh and then I found it kind of in in juncture with that cuz it was talking about the IO thing and there's a few things where I was like that's not quite right and and but then I but then but then I found it and I did tech I chatted to the thing and said OMFG because this was natural.
I just like OMFG is in the [ __ ] like the lead mute was on and the IO and thing and that was so funny because I that that input prompted it to immediately like >> like LMFAO crying emojis classic uh good luck on the gig. But I actually did enjoy that. Like that was the But this was these were two instances of feeling that Jarvisy feeling. I was like, "Okay, I appreciate this like light thing where it's like, okay, a bunch of sources. I can check out the sources. Done." Right?
Or like fan thing. Thank I just naturally, right? It's like, "Thanks."
And I even it's cute that it can detect a humor thing and like understand that pattern, right? I'm like, "Okay, but the problem is the non-limitation. is like the the problem is that the it's interl like I had to tell it to stop cuz I said I'm doing a presentation like when I first was asking for those sources right but then it kept bringing up the presentation it's like for your presentation for some and I was like can you stop that I don't like I don't like this part because it naturally starts to encroach into your emotional space and I was like no like I need you to stay here but the there's no the the LLM are designed to not stay there specifically and again like the Sauron behavior incentive structure of like what they're trying to do is they want it to invade every little area of your life. And not everyone has the friends or resources or willpower or >> behavior. The psychic defense to uh Yeah. I mean, look at [ __ ] Richard Dawkins.
>> I mean, that was it was so embarrassing.
I felt so embarrassed actually. She's just an old man. It was really sad.
>> But but even with Aya, right, where like she as we were talking about this last night and I was talking about all this [ __ ] right? And she was like felt like she doesn't use it for emotional things, but she has a bunch of friends who do.
Uh and she thinks that's she doesn't like that. she think that doesn't doesn't make sense but or she doesn't or maybe she's just curious about the difference. I was trying to I don't remember exactly the phrasing but like she was saying that she has and this is true right like a kind of well I guess this was me reading her where I think she was confused about it and then I had my explanation as I think Aya is extremely like sensitive to like like like doesn't doesn't want to ego flattered you know what I mean like actively seeks out people who are constantly like challenging her and correcting and stuff like that and to the point that it's almost like an irritating cultural trait of like the rationalist right you know what I mean of like the super hyperr but it's like so so noticing the emotional sort of syphy or whatever is like particularly noxious to her because of the way that she is. So it's like so she might be someone and I actually kind of believe this that is in some ways like like attitudinally predisposed to use AI in a way that I have no real issue with. But I have an issue that everyone has access to this because I I don't I don't trust everyone else with it. The way that it'll just >> sink into your everything, especially on that emotional thing. so dark like when you start going to it for relationship advice and [ __ ] and like you're just reflecting yourself reflecting yourself and it goes on endlessly and you're never encountering the friction of your friend saying I actually don't give a [ __ ] about that thing you just said or you're stupid right now or you're not you're thinking too much about yourself or actually think about this or think about me >> I know it's it's just a it's just a bas I mean I've been going on about this recently I think I might make a video on this um it's just like how it's moving even when you're talking about AI psychosis it's moving so fast that we can't codify the terms >> in culture like >> no one like there's no there's no class in high school on what an LLM is right so if you just misinterpret what the technology is and you don't have a basil understanding of what the technology is and you don't realize it is just like a the actual like talking to you is just a very like profound you know u wide autocomplete if you don't understand that and you don't understand that like when you're using a public model a public facing like frontier model there's just a system prompt saying it to be nice if you down and run claude locally you can just put a system prompt that says never speak to me like a human only give me results and then when you say find me these 24 sources, there's no sentence being like here you go CJ for your present. It just does it >> and it's literally just a system prompt and there's no like there's no public-f facing like wide class in high school or university that says that that's what that is. So when you get like a newbie to the technology using it, then they're like, "Oh, it's so like syncopantic.
It's so nice." They don't understand like what they're actually using. Yeah.
It's insane. It's insane.
>> Well, this is a point of human limitation, right? Like this because this is the like the no that's why I don't know how to I hope I can articulate it well enough. I get nervous sometimes talking about some stuff where I feel like I'm blasting around. I'm like I'm not coherent enough. But like that the human problem will remain. Like humans still have to decide what we're going to do about stuff. like it's just not we're not going to subvert that, right? It's just a necessary component of the thing. Um and so like the this is what the limitation is is is when humans go like, "Okay, we have a thing. What's the right way to use it, you know?" And that that's where like these social norms and cultural standards and laws and [ __ ] happen, right? Um but like that deliberation is being subverted. I think that's the thing you're talking about.
It's like we're not we don't have the time or space or like resources or something to like talk about like the potentiality of like where would this be best actually. It's just like endlessly.
>> Yeah. And then everyone especially any anybody doing anything in like uh in business or like you know anyone who sees themselves as a productive person or a person with high agency feels the like unnecessary need to shoehorn it into every aspect of their lives and they don't have like I don't like use it >> very often. I literally just use it to find sources.
>> Yes.
>> And like you know you as well like I feel like most people when you find balance with it it's like oh I understand where this is useful. I don't need it every day. But then you get people who like literally just think it's like, "Oh, the new thing is out.
Time to find like every possible [ __ ] use case I can and talk to it constantly." And like then you go Yeah.
Then you go [ __ ] crazy.
>> Yeah. And it's and it's asking for it.
It's obviously it's it's showing up trying to get more and more involved in your life. I think that's what's so scary. And like it's scary this it's the same way that social media is. The last time that we did a horseshoe Theory episode, I was screaming about social media, right? And it's I it's the same problem as something trying to like press into every area of your life. And like so the thing about the Californian ideology like the other idea I was trying to like balance out was like this proof of well do you want me to get into this and then I feel I feel like I might end up like yell ranting about things yell >> but like I want to also know what you guys kind of want to talk about >> people probably just this >> huh >> probably just probably just probably just this. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.
>> They're excited. The >> While you guys were talking, I was I was I was thinking of things to say and then as I was thinking about them, because I know exactly what both of you think about this, you were guys were just saying it anyway, so I was just letting it go.
>> That's so funny. Okay. Um yeah, the uh so the thing that I was working on is that I can tie this really far back because it can go all the way back to like Protestantism and the emergence of capitalism itself. um like the and the enlightenment. But but like but the the broader thing is that there's something in common with uh democracy and well capitalism like there always were like they they came out like at the same time and there's supposed to be sort of like rational justifications of how to allocate power and stuff and so there so so I think that when something is making a bunch of money whether through VC funding or through the stock market going up or just making actually a lot of money people are like oh that validates it that means it's good the people have chosen in some way, you know. Um, and then the same thing I think goes for democracy, of course, right? Because you think about like so whoever got the most votes, well, that gets like a kind of, you know what I mean? Like obviously that like what what everyone decides has some legitimacy to it. So then the the sticky thing I think is that the um with the Silicon Valley types, they they the the the metrics and like the engagement and the data that they're collecting, I think that is a substitute for sort of democracy and capital. Like this is another like, oh, everyone's using it, so there's a justification, you know what I mean? or the amount of time that people end up pouring into using their AI thing is a proof of its value and it vindicates the people that are like subsidizing it and throwing it around everywhere, right? So, I think that's the thing is if they can burn enough money to make sure that everyone's using it, it's like the people have chosen it. So, that's what's so insidious, right? Is that social media and AI are actively trying to get used as much as possible because that validates their existence, right? And so that's but that's ugly, right? That's what I think is so is anti-human is when um like you know what I mean? Like if I showed up in your life and like my goal was to have you rely on me as much as possible to the exclusion of other people like that's a toxic manipulative abusive person, right? Like if if they're act trying to you know what I mean like that's not a good thing and that's not a good thing for a technology to do or for a business to do to you.
It's like I want to you to use me for absolutely everything is I want to be part of I want to be involved in every aspect of your life. I want to watch all of it. It's like that's not good. These are not good people or good instincts or good models. And so yeah, I think the AI being sometimes I just think we need to get more Chinese just like we got to just turn that [ __ ] off at like 8:00 p.m. for everyone.
>> I'm with you.
>> You know what I mean? Like actually I think that probably is actually that has been my like even like like again last uh like in 2024 when we were talking I was like nationalizing social media companies.
>> So that probably is just my my belief that we have to do.
>> I do wonder if I wonder if it will happen. I like I but sort of it's a little a little off topic but >> the moratorium would be good too. We don't have to advance it any farther than that.
>> This is my my my take recently has been that we'll get a moratorium but something really bad has to happen first. And this is what I've seen. I've seen this from there's a there's a survey I forget the institute that does it. It's like one of the AI safety institutes. They run a massive survey with as many AI researchers as they can every year and just kind of update like what is the collective opinion of AI researchers. So they they run it like 2,700 different people in the Bay Area like anthropic open AI and um like pretty consistently since like 2022 2021 the re the researchers have always been like 98% optimistic like a few of them if you were to do like the percentage of extinction risks it'd be like 1% across the whole industry. The new thing that's popped up now has been like it's still really good. it's going to be really bad and something really bad will happen and now they're all sort of bracing for like okay in the next two years like there will be a a horrifying event that won't be purely like totally catastrophic but like we won't get a full moratorium like like global consciousness shift on what the technology is until that until then we'll just be like >> full market full sales ahead >> yeah I got to do what I what I can I guess I I should say something about this maybe I've been trying to decide whether or not to I I'm I want to write a piece about AI at some Um, I want to galvanize anti-AI sentiment, but like I think specifically the sort of economic populist left that has been occurring should get on board with the AI doomers that are like it's going to kill everybody. Um, I think that has to happen in some ways, right?
Because like there there there's um because there's that idea right now that it's like oh AI killing everybody. It's like oh that's just marketing for like the companies or whatever. And on some sure maybe it is to each other internally a little bit like I get that.
Um but also at least for me just hanging out with like the anti-AI people in like like Berkeley they are not joking.
They're dead serious. Like why are you smiling? Because you don't believe you think it's funny.
>> No, I I I know what they're up to.
>> Yeah, >> I know what they're doing.
>> What do you think they're up to?
>> They're very uh very paranoid about AI killing and raping everybody.
>> So what do you what do you You know the wait what was what is this like knowing condescending smile you're giving >> the you're talking about a certain group of people in SF right and they're they're taking it very seriously >> and the people that run the companies obviously right >> and they're they're putting I guess their money where their mouth is in terms of um taking that seriously.
>> Yeah. Um and to the point that like there there's there's the the people that um and and so like when I was doing I I I when I was doing like the consulting with these guys because they they asked me to um >> they like they asked me to do to consult with them cuz they're like I think that your perspective could be valuable and like how how to you know get a message out to the world and how to like you know get people to unite on a thing you know and like idea crafting and stuff.
So it makes sense. And it took me a few times of going there where I was just trying to figure out like um like what the vibe I was being I've never been to California, right? Like I've never been It's all new to me, right? Like I saw the um the Golden Gate Bridge. I was like that shit's from TV and movie.
>> Yeah, >> that's still Raven.
>> Yeah, >> it was it was really emotional actually that it was I was like I was like it still is. I still get amazed that I get to go like I went to London for the first time last year to do a show. I'm just like holy [ __ ] you know, I'm just I'm very I'm realizing how like very like a sort of like middle working class uh like Canadian and Scottish I am. I'm like I didn't think these places were real, you know? So, I was just take like taking it in and I didn't want to be like like um out of pocket and I was trying to learn like the culture and learn about AI cuz I didn't know [ __ ] about AI. So, I'd be like, "Okay, tell me about all the companies." Okay. I just like I was trying to download in my brain as much as possible and like get to know the people and see a little what's going on. And then the third time I went there I felt like okay I got it.
Like I think I understand, right? And I then I realized that the most valuable thing I could possibly do for this cultural bubble is like uh just be completely honest and just be like actually like the pro like just be to tell the truth basically not try to be nice. I think they needed like that perspective in the room. And so I sat up to give a talk like to a interior like group room group of people and I was like okay everyone hates you.
Everyone hates you so bad and all of you come across like feds and like they don't believe that you're actually anti- AAI and they have reason to because you're all also AI obsessed and we're I think the world is really resentful of the Silicon Valley culture that has exported themselves across the whole world and that they are so like uh like like they're like they're like that the that there's something broken and that the anti- AI people they come across so like sort of unattractive and noxious and untrustworthy because like they're kind coming with the same they're coming out of the exact same culture where they're like they're not anti all the other tech stuff. They're just like on this very specific slice of issue. Trust us, let us fix this for you. We know what's best for you. Which is the same [ __ ] right? You just get the same feeling of someone that's really detached from the real world and from the rest of culture that thinks that that thinks all these like weird like do you know what I like they they export it like they are uh they they've been exporting their ideology to the world like so much like basically it's kind of reminded like the the thing that happened with the Democratic primary thing. Do do you know about this the DNC I I saw this thing of was it the bull work or something of like the DNC guy that refused to release the autopsy report on what happened like you know what I mean like they conducted like an investigation on like why did we lose >> it was Palestine. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they actually we don't know because they never released the report. And it looks like realistically that uh like I I think the the truth of it is that the report I think was really really poorly done. It looks like it was like really badly and amateurish and part of the reason they concealed it was to conceal how bad of a [ __ ] job they did. And then yes, of course, it's probably also Palestine and who knows what else like all who maybe it's because they want to run Kamala again and there's bad whatever, right?
What? But the most important like the the a completely objective thing is that we don't know cuz we can't know because they didn't release the report and instead you have this smarmy guy that comes across. I feel almost bad for him how [ __ ] annoying and unlikable he comes across as a man. But like he's going like he he says like we're uh we're releasing the lessons. It's like we don't want to distract everyone with pointing fingers at each other. Oh, who did what on this thing? Like you know we want to don't want to look at the past.
We need to look at the future and focus on what we're doing now. And we're so we did the report and we're releasing the lessons. We're sharing those lessons so that we can do better and do what we have to do and like >> Yeah. And you feel bad for him.
>> I feel >> I think they get what they deserve.
>> I mean I I feel bad for >> I hope they run Camel. I hope they run Hillary. I hope they run incredibly embarrassing. Uh like like he's so it's someone that's like so I feel like there might have been a time in history where we needed this guy. Do you know what I mean? That's that's the feeling I have.
Right. There's this might have been a time but he's just so in this moment the villain. You know what I mean? and and like and I do feel bad because I I feel this way because even with like um like the AI people in in the in the bay and [ __ ] like that. Like I can't stop like I believe in people's sincerity, right? I really do. I I do have more empathy, I think, than most people. And I I believe when people are being sincere, even if I think they're >> causing problems, whatever. Okay. So So So the the thing that was I was like this is the perfect example of what people have grown to hate so bad about Silicon Valley and about the Democratic party, right? Is this technocratic, you don't need to look at that. trust me, I'm solving it for you, right? And like not letting the process of democracy happen by just letting us see the report and then we do the democracy like don't worry, we've solved it here and we'll export it to you, right? And so I feel like this is what the advice I was giving to the AI people, right? Is I was like I you need to like your des your goal should be to lose control of your own movement, right? There's no way that you're doing this like like like you need to tap into the sentiment of people that hate your entire culture. Like you realize like that's the weird thing.
You're you're a class trader. That's what you're trying to be. If you're trying to get this moratorum, people don't change their minds or make political wins by like you know slicing this tiny issue. You know what I mean?
Like you have to tap into what the world is talking about. You have to convince the whole world. Obviously, if you're going to make if your goal if you sincerely believe that AI is going to kill everybody and you want to see actual tangible political action to like limit the power of the AI industry, that's going to come with limitations on a lot of other things because you're going to be tapping into a deeper resentment of you guys in general, right? So, that that's kind of what I was trying to get across, right? And just to have that said and it seemed very valued. So, that's really good. And actually, I kept getting messages afterwards where they're like, "We really needed to hear that." and a couple people in the room also. Like there was one guy that was like he was like I um am like a more left person politically than a lot some of the people in this and I didn't know these are feelings that I was having that I didn't know if I was going to be able to like that I didn't feel like I could articulate and so was there was like a relief in that and then another guy was like his job was just to monitor the social media like to monitor social media sentiment like just to do there's like a thing that you know people do like like studies like codes code stuff of like prowling through social media and what people say about different topics at different times and stuff like that. And he's like, "This is what I've been saying." Like the whole time I was talking, this what I've been saying is like, he's like, "All the sentiment is negative. They hate us so bad. They hate the people making the AI. They hate the people that are trying to tell us the AI is going to kill us. They hate all of us. They don't trust us. We have no credibility." And if you want it, you have to function more like a turncoat, right? To be like, "Yeah, you know, understand that's what you're doing, right? instead of thinking like like staying in the same culture and thinking the same way that uh we just have to convince people rationally uh on this one tiny thing which sounds like another Silicon Valley fantasy power game preposterous thing like you know what I mean it's like you are the ones who made it and you're the ones that are telling us it's bad >> like that's the when I when I do my lecture on this like I start it with just like quotes of like Sam Alman like saying no you say something never mind just like it's I I I open end up being like being like same altman like 10 years apart like on the same blog. This is both quotes that are still live, right? And one of them was a blog post saying like the most uh pressing threat to human extinction is artificial super intelligence. And then 10 years same site, the gentle singularity, a blog post where he goes like open AI is many things, but first and foremost, we are a super intelligence research company. And I'm like I just put those side by side and I'm like so should we kill him?
>> Should we kill this man out of self-defense? Yeah, I think it's a it's a reasonable thing. It's like it's just they're saying it in front of you, the most powerful people in the world. We're building something that might kill everybody and we're doing it.
>> First of all, should we kill them?
>> Stastic terrorism. I've been I I feel like there's a mad scramble right now going on to control the anti-AI narrative, the anti-ASI in particular. And I I know this partially because Broen's AI psychosis resolved in I feel like you got two wolves inside it. You got your doomer wolf and your optimism wolf. And they're always >> two tools. Doom. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Happy smiler and the we're all going to die.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh I feel like after the AI psychosis, it's synthesized in a kind of like AI it I'm optimistic in general.
But this one particular point of ASI uh raping and killing all of us.
>> Yeah.
>> Um that's sort of what we should all be kind of together against. You're sort of now a single issue >> um anti-ASI person. Is this correct?
>> Yeah, 100%.
>> Okay. Um, I do think we should unite on that, but like and I and I won't cons I won't also don't would not want to conceal that my motivation for being like uh you know uh do anti- AI extinction like coalition building is part of like I think we just need more control of like the of of of big of big tech and capitalism in general right now because things are and control of people also, right? Because it's not just capitalism, it's just the technofudalism thing. Yeah, there's a lot of uh I mean I know that you have uh this particular group you're talking about. Um >> there's multiple groups.
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> You don't know all of them.
>> I know a lot of them. I did consulting as well for one of these anti-Asi groups.
>> Oh yeah. Which one were you with? Um you doing control AI and stuff?
>> I wasn't control AI. Um whenever and I I I do want to say whenever I work with these people, they're always really excited to potentially work with me and then they see I do too much stocastic terrorism. So you may want to think about that before you say we should kill them.
>> That's so funny. Um although I you know I think it's a completely fair question to ask.
>> I think it's it's just insane like if you build like a a massive if you're the most like you have the most money like in the entire world inside of your company. You are the thing with all of the power. I mean you're Sam Alman, right? You're openly saying and this is the thing is this is what's ridiculous like the Silicon Valley culture thing that's so noxious. It's like they're literally make they've been making jokes to each other about P Doom, right? I had to learn what that was, right? Like you're just like like, "Oh yeah, I think Pet 10 15." Haha. I'm like, "Fuck you."
Right. And so when you're doing that, you've made your whole life doing that.
How could you possibly be surprised when someone tries to fire bomb your house?
It's crazy, right? Like you're saying it. You're threatening humanity.
>> Yes. You articulated something like this of like if I am saying I'm going to build um a weapon that's going to kill everybody and and like let's say it has like a 90% chance of killing everybody, you'd be completely justified in murdering me, right?
>> Even 10%, right? Don't you're not supposed to do [ __ ] like that. If you said you were designing a boweapon, don't know if it's going to work. People will come to your house and shoot you, right? And so it's not the same as even like uh killing like the um the insurance the health insurance company person, right? Like because that guy at least he wouldn't actively be saying he's out to kill everybody or building something that he thinks is going to kill everybody. Like at least he says pays lip service to the fact that he thinks he's helping people. I imagine maybe.
>> Yeah. It's sort of like uh the fossil fuel CEOs. Like imagine instead of, you know, talking about carbon footprint, they were like, "Yeah, we're going to destroy the world."
>> Yeah. You can't be openly saying that.
It's insane.
>> Yeah. But it's because these guys are too autistic to lie or to like, you know, >> No. And it's got No, I think it's because they believe it and and I I think they they actually do believe it.
And uh so they need to be stopped. They need to be stopped. And I think and sometimes they will pay lip service even to wanting to be stopped, right? Like they have that idea. But of course, I mean, it's insane. Like if there's the the idea of like like they all used to it's so insane like so I think it was like it's it's so it's so insane like that that like like the idea that they're like Sam Alman would be saying that it's like oh we're going to build the company and then at some point we're going to have to turn it over to the government because of the extension.
Like you will never let go of power.
That's insane.
>> Well they're never going to let go.
They're basically saying you're going to have to pry it out of our hands. So they're saying we really shouldn't be doing this. You guys really shouldn't be letting us do it.
>> So I'm like so this this is where I feel is I'm like like I agree with you. We'll take it away from you. Let's do it.
You're this is insane.
Yeah, someone has to pry it out of their hands and they're going to fight. Uh, and when this event happens, the first >> that's going to make them the most villainous like hypocrites, enemies of humanity that like we've seen. Like the most I've never seen like so many like like like I've never seen such clear enemies of humanity, >> right? Yeah. It's very it's quite obvious. Yeah.
>> Um, >> but I also I think I think where I would add to Broen's point of uh Well, first of all, two things. When you made a bet with JJ, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, on what? cuz JJ listened to this podcast and you were some you said something like >> I said I made the same point last I just talked about like in the next year there'll be you'll open your phone and see a a breaking news headline and go holy [ __ ] >> Yeah, I think you had a >> that there's a bad thing coming.
>> You I think you had a shorter timeline you just kind of threw out on a podcast.
>> I think I said eight months or something.
>> And he made you um he made you commit to a sort of specific prediction.
>> I made I made a bet with JJ that if nothing catastrophic happens in the next two years, I'll take him on like a full two week vacation.
>> That's so funny.
>> And then I asked JJ, "What are you going to do if uh if you lose?" And he said, "I I'll take Broen to wherever in the human bunker underground that he wants."
>> I'm not talking about apocalypse. I'm talking about like >> some disaster. Some >> Yeah. Yeah. Like a like a bioweapon that like can wipe out a city but then doesn't transmit or like, you know, something like some horrible financial catast like, you know, something enough to wake people up.
>> Like everyone's social security numbers just got like swiped by something like >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
>> But I think the only thing I'd add to that is I don't I think that's going to happen.
>> Wait, wait, when did you make this bet?
How many How much time you got?
>> Uh, I made it two weeks ago. So, I got I got two years.
>> Two years.
>> I got I got mid2028.
>> Why do I know Broen becomes an accelerationist so that he doesn't have to pay for vacation?
>> Yeah. So, he doesn't have to buy JJ a beer. Um, uh, wait, what are you going to give him?
>> I'm going to keep on vacation. I'm going like buy a flight in a hotel. I can take him somewhere cool.
>> Well, that's nice. I I I hope you lose.
>> That That was the purpose.
>> I hope I lose. I really hope I lose. I hope I lose. It'd be the easiest L ever I'll ever take if I lose.
>> Right. But >> and it would be fun, too. You do you have to go on vacation or you have to do you have to pay for his vacation?
>> No, we're gonna go we're gonna go together. I'm gonna pay for him. Great.
>> Okay. Here here's what's here's what's gonna happen.
>> This this event you're talking about something like it will happen. And there is currently a propaganda war going on between uh the you know pro AAI guys, pro pro-ASI guys, accelerationists and anti-Asi control people. Um, and within the control AI, uh, you know, sphere, there's all these different disperate groups. Some of them are more LinkedIn, like the I did consulting with these more LinkedIn professional guys called Paos Labs.
>> Um, a lot of money is pouring in to sort of control the AI narrative. Also, there's a lot of resentment towards the Elizer Chakowski guy.
>> Yeah. No, he's not he's not a good figurehead.
>> And and that sort of group because they think they're the wrong people to be spearheading that movement.
>> Um, so >> wait, you're saying people think that they're the wrong people?
>> Other companies think that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The thing is also LEAS are also thinks which is pretty which is which is funny. Yeah. I I don't think they're are good figureheads. They're not um that's not it has to escape >> publicity. And so depending on where we are in this propaganda war um at that point will dictate what percentage of people will acknowledge that that was you know you're you're sort of expecting okay something horrible is going to happen and there's going to be a moratorium. If the propaganda war is such that the proi people have more ground, when that happens, >> there's going to be a mass denial psychosis, like you you could see something really horrible happen and people are just not going to believe that it happened or there's going to be some sort of like narrative that spreads that it wasn't actually AI or it's not something to worry about or it's just something that we can like push past.
And so that's why it's important now as to your point to uh proitize and do this prophylaxis against um so that when that happens people know what's happening.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think something that's been filling me with a bit of like anxiety or something is like I like I do feel like I feel like there's like there's like a >> it's cool. I'm I'm making I'm making the video so that's fine. But like I do feel like it's almost like a critical window.
Like it matters a lot right now. Like the next two years I feel like matter a lot.
>> Yeah. 100% 100% 100%. That can't be overstated.
>> Yeah. So, basically, here's how your bet with JJ is going to end. Uh, with both of you thinking you won.
>> No.
>> Yeah, that's what's going to happen.
That's not It's not >> Yeah, that's what's going to happen.
You're going to something's going to happen and you're going to think this is because this is this is the turning point. This is like the the nuclear explosion where everyone's going to turn against ASI and JJ's going to say, "Eh, that wasn't really related."
>> I disagree 100%. No, New York's gonna be wiped off the map. And he's gonna say, "Well, that was the human error."
>> JJ is so nothing ever happens that like if you're like New York, you get wiped off the map and be like, "Well, >> people think about this, but really happens a lot."
>> In the ruins of New York, and he's like, "Eh, nothing really happened. Society's fall all the time."
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. No, >> I'm here visiting one of the most talked about sites in >> one of the most talked about radioactive wastelands >> in 2028 in culture. Uh, in January, New York got wiped off the map. Yeah, that's like in his like that's like in his year in review >> and Bad Bunny released another album.
>> Oh god.
>> I just don't I just don't think it's going to be as clearcut um as you as you might be hoping.
>> I hope it doesn't happen. I just hope I lose.
>> No, it it'll happen and it'll be worse than you could have ever imagined.
>> I disagree 100%.
>> He was talking about killing me earlier cuz I'm too negative.
>> Killing you?
>> Yeah. like grabbing me by my like ankles and like bashing me against a wall >> cuz I was I was talking about how everything's bad and life is bad. You ever you ever find like >> out of happiness? So out of out of pursuit of your happiness just murder Jagg.
>> Yeah. You ever you ever mow the lawn?
>> Yeah.
>> You ever find like a like a corn snake and you and you're like ah and you grab it and like throw it at a wall as hard as you can. I'm going to do that to him and you can imagine his long body like like whipping against a brick wall really hard which is really funny.
>> And you know what I You know what I said?
>> Huh?
>> You know what I said?
>> What did you I deserve it.
>> This is exhausting. All right. Do you want to talk about anything that isn't that?
>> Yeah, >> because it is a s it's a bummer of a topic sometimes.
>> It's a bummer of a talk. I want to before we move on again, leave people with hope. There's hope. We have hope.
It's not inevitable.
>> No, I do think there is like a there's a there's a there's a good wave of like >> a massive wave >> democratic power like resentment towards big tech and uh like awareness.
res resentment to to technocracy kind of in general. Yeah. And like just thirst thirst thirst like for um community and inconvenience and like building things like new things and with a little more grit. I don't know. I feel I feel hopeful. I Yeah.
>> No one wants to die. One >> wrong.
>> Shut up. No one wants to die. Oh, you can always bet on that. Sam Alma doesn't want to die. Dion Mus doesn't want to die. Two, humans are so good at like balancing variables in their lives. Like if you just throw if I throw like any shoe horn into your life, within six months it will like it will be a part of your life, right?
>> If it doesn't kill you, it will like you'll figure it out. If I cut your leg off, like six months later, you'd be like, "Hey, bro, with like a you know, a [ __ ] prosthetic on be fine." That's what humanity does as a species is we like evolve and and and find balance with variables. We've did it with We've done it with social media. We've done it with every technology so far.
>> We've done it with social media. I think we social media.
>> What? How do you How do you mean >> screen time's going down?
>> Screen time is flat. Like flat like screen screen time across all age groups is flatlined. It is now. Shut up. Can you [ __ ] shut up?
>> No.
>> Could you stop? What do you do? What do you do? You go.
>> You have no friends. You have no family.
You go home and masturbate all day and look at a dark in a black room with a blue light on your face. No, you don't.
>> Post your screen time. And >> you don't do that. None of us do that.
NO ONE I KNOW DOES THAT. WE ALL HAVE DINNER.
>> GO IN THE COMMENTS. Go in the comments.
Post your screen time. include desktop, phone, tablet. Those are all screens.
>> There's exhaustion. There's the rot.
There's the rot. There's the exhaustion.
And we have >> AND WE DON'T WANT IT. WE DON'T WE we have an indominal spirit. We don't want to [ __ ] face the black void every day increasingly until there's nothing left.
No one wants to do that.
>> No, they'd rather be around people. I think that's the thing is they'd rather be around people where things are happening. I that's the biggest thing for me. I think that that what there was there was a useful change of like uh of of uh cultural consciousness that I think has occurred or is occurring now.
Yeah, that is the first round of like the social media critique stuff kind of famously crystallized I would say in like Jenny Odell's how to do nothing was about kind of about individual willpower like I think the the thing that I think we've realized like in attention activism as like a concept and general anti-ex stuff and trying to build cool things and have conversation or like uh some of the economic populist stuff that's happening in America. Um, I feel like the people, it used to be like, "Oh, I'm" You used to feel like guilty like if you brought it on the screen, right? You used to feel like, "Oh, I'm doing this. I need to do better." Like, "I need to do better for myself in my life." But I think people have realized, no, it's happening to you. and um the and and the way that you um like well this is my phrase now but it's like that it's it's really hard not to pay attention to the attention colonization sucking vacuum that seeks to destroy your very existence. Um, but it's actually really easy to it's a lot easier to pay attention to thing to things when you're with people, right?
Like if that's the thing is like I I think that like right now, you know what I mean? I have not obviously I've not thought about going on my phone this entire time. I haven't even like I it hasn't even gone through my brain, right? Just check through. So this is the thing is when engaging things are happening, when you're experiencing culture and people um or meaningful activity socially, then it's really easy to not do the tech thing, right? And I think that's what I think that's that's what where my um that's where the energy is. That's where the power is is like uh we each other.
>> Yeah.
>> Like human experience like like you said dinner like it's so like so crazy, right? Like I'm so there's this thing of um that I saw like of Jordan Peterson a million years ago in some really old thing. It's funny when you're going back through like uh his old lectures you can find the different brain worms he had at different times like different things he was harping on at the time, right? But one of them which was so cool is that the idea when people stopped having dinner together as a family which kind of sounds a little like but actually uh the there's a thing where like humans socially uh synchronize how much we eat together. And so when you eat things alone again in this like isolationist atomistic sort of like you know um designed way or whatever you know I'm saying it's almost like a techie thing right this techie mobilization minimalist whatever the [ __ ] um like like eating the square of food you know that square that is food.
>> Oh yeah like [ __ ] like everyday squares.
>> Yeah. Whatever that is. Yeah. I guess this is more like California culture [ __ ] but like but like when you eat alone you eat less. When you eat with with with people you actually start to eat more just based on the other. You just both naturally start to eat more and eat the same amount. it's like healthy for you. Like there's so which is again that's more of it's like a kind of whatever scientific explanation of the thing when it's just spiritual actually um you should eat together you know um but I I just think we I don't think we realize how much being around each other and in friction and in meaningful activity and in play um like it's like life-changing. Like that's where all of the power is. That's the entire thing. Yeah. And that's what like everyone should be. Um, and this is kind of like I this is John McMurray's philosophical thought too, right? That like everything in society and like government and business should on some level be to facilitate that. And if um and if the social institutions are not having having help helping more people have friends and be with each other and like play and eat meals together and do things that are like meaningful together, then like society needs to change. So I do think that that that this is becoming clear to many. I just now I just had a sense that I was like one node and like a big brain of humanity consciousness and that I was just like I just felt like I was part of a big wide thing and I was just like clicking something. I didn't feel like I was a person for a second.
>> Oh, you're like yeah you're grabbing it out of the ether.
>> Yeah. I felt like I felt like weird like I was saying something like it was my idea when I was like no it's our idea.
>> Yeah. No 100%. And there's plenty of cultures that have found balance in our current system, right? Like there's plenty of like European societies or like Asian societies that like, you know, or China with some with some like social some things, right? I think we have to take a lot of lessons from each other.
>> Yeah. No, absolutely. And it's like, you know, there's there's like really this this endless like endless exponential growth neoliberalism is only happening in like the west coast of North America.
>> That ex Yeah. That's that's the thing that I can't that I' I've started to feel is I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] if we just stop California, I think we can do this."
Like like I and I think that um uh also like the authoritarian Christian nationalism fascism is these are the two threats. This is what I lecture on is like there's two uh my the two things that they're threatening to swallow us and kill us, right? Is like either a regression or like the acceleration into nightmare world. It's either like technocratic like technofudalism um like whatever neoliberalism beyond the thing the land end of whatever. Um so it's either uh like technofudalism or it's Christian nationalism. I think that's what we're teetering on right now. And we're having the same thing where it's it's similar issues that we're having in um the UK also. Um, I'm Scottish, so like that also the other political thing that like sometimes on my brain. Um, we just did an election and like uh brought in like the more like um we we just elected in the like uh kind of the Christian nationalism flirting anti-immigration like kind of uh vulgar like it's the Trumpian party like the reform guys. Um, so I was talking to my mom about the election because she Scotland and anyway, yeah. Okay. Fair.
Yeah. Those are the things, right? Those are the those are the problems, right?
If we But those are the forces we need to defeat. So the there's the Christian nationalism, white supremacy kind of like dog that's rising. And then there's the technofudalism. And so if we can just stop California and then stop the fascists, >> then I I hope we're >> I think you're going to have to pick.
>> Huh?
>> I think you're going to have to pick.
>> Well, you know you know what my choice is, right?
>> Yeah, I know.
No, I'm I'm like I I can like roll with Christianity and beat Christian, but I also want to that's a fight I have to fight actually. I I do know that like eventually if I keep gaining power and influence then the Christian fascists are going to come for me. Yeah.
>> And so I have to I have to fight them.
But that's why I also like I want to fight them on Christian terms, you know.
>> Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Um look, I was going to say something that was going to spike Broen's cortisol further, but I've never seen him get that mad. So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna throw you guys a bone >> and not say anything pessimistic. I was uh I'm going to um this uh basically I'm not I won't say the name but it's an AA group for the phone. Yes. And I've been I've been to a few meetings and they sort of just sort of they you know they're a little you know personal responsibility pulled about the whole thing I guess. Um but but in a way you know the the message of AA is that you can't do it yourself. So you're you're talking about how um we're we're we're more and more viewing this as something that's being done to us. This is this is this is true. Um, and I've been thinking I think a lot of my dumerism maybe comes from this fact that like I look at my own individual will and I think I'm not strong enough to beat it. And so I think because I'm not strong enough to beat it, we're going to lose.
>> But then I think, okay, could a community beat it?
>> Yeah.
>> And then that's a that's a different question. And then could like the collective spirit of all of humanity getting together to fight this thing >> like the end of an anime.
>> Yeah. And I then I'm like, okay, that's even that's an even better question. And then I think, could God beat it? And I think, yeah, I think it no diffs this problem, actually. So, yeah, if if it's down to all of us individually, we lose. And if it's down to all of us working together, that's a fight.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, >> yeah, >> I agree.
>> Wow, this got really inspirational. Holy [ __ ] I It's like It's like Goku with the spirit bomb. the whole planets like puts their energy into it. You know what I'm talking about?
>> Yeah. Well, just be glad I didn't say that other stuff on my mind.
>> Um Okay. Yeah. So, okay. So, we saw that we just have to work together and make the world better. Save the world.
>> It's true.
>> Yeah. Okay. Good. Let's do it.
>> Let's do it. Okay. How are you guys contributing to that? What's the plan?
>> Been working working with Control AI.
>> Yeah. Dope. Yeah.
>> Talking about [ __ ] >> And we'll do the Kill the Internet IRL in Toronto event. I got a little overwhelmed with like business stuff and like my tour and I just have stuff going on. I'm trying to sort out like my own like emotional spiritual. We're all Saturn returning, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. We're all going through our Saturn return. So, I think that some things are reckoning with some major changes of like rebalancing my >> Did you learn that from Tessa?
>> Um I actually know from Ariana Grande, but >> it's a Gen Z thing, right?
>> No, it's Wait, what?
>> Sudden return.
>> Yeah.
>> No, it's everyone. It happens to everyone like 27 years in or something like that.
>> But it happens to us specifically, right? Cuz >> yeah, all of us are going through right now. Yeah, cuz we're all the same age.
>> Yeah. Everyone born in like 95 to 99.
>> Yeah, that's what I meant. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
>> I guess that's that's millennials in Gen Z. Oh, god, I'm [ __ ] old.
>> Yeah, but that's one of the problems I'm having with Kill the Internet, though, is I need a lot of help. Um, and I'm slowly learning how to get people more involved in the thing. I'm slow, you know what I mean? But, but it's it's hard to uh that's so much work on its own is just getting it set up so that other people can help you. You know what I mean? to not feel like you have to like that if I don't act it doesn't happen.
>> It's hard to find good help. That's what we were talking about. Except Xavier.
>> Xavier is the only good help in Toronto.
>> D's really good and my brother, but just for me.
>> Yeah.
>> He's my vassel. He's so sick.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
Um but yeah, we we I want to do more like with Kill the Internet like in Toron like I want to make more just community events occurring, right? And I need more people to like be involved with it, right? But I think I'm not going to be able to put all of my energy into that until after this lecture tour.
Um because I also need my own business to work and I have my own passion and stuff like that and get back into music and stuff. I'm just talking about the list now. I have a list.
>> You're spread quite thin.
>> I'm spread too thin.
>> You're writing a book. Literature is crazy. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I got the book. I I have not had time to be working on the book lately.
Um yeah, I got a literary agent though, which is fun. Exciting news. Um >> yeah, that's all I have to say about that.
>> I've been lamenting this a lot recently.
Maybe you can agree. What >> is that like historically baked into the creative process? You could like do nothing for 6 months.
>> Ex. Yeah, that is the thing, right? Is that you're supposed to have a sbatical to create the thing. That's part of it, right?
>> Or like artists would like just not paint for two years and they'd be like, "Oh, I got it." And then they go make like something beautiful.
>> Yeah. It's more like wandering or like even like uh again like all the slightly sleep also said that thing about the Medici family, right? where it's like they would like the when the when when the Medici would like sponsor uh an artist, part of the reason wasn't actually they weren't commissioning them to get like this sick piece of art necessarily. It was actually the status of having an artist working around, you know what I mean? Um and yeah, there's just a little bit of like that ethic like even like the concept of a record deal, right? It used to be it used to be, right? They they give you the money up front and then you have these resources and you have a bunch of time to create a thing. Whereas like now it's like more and more record labels are like expecting you to do more and more work because we're all like, "Oh, you have the you have the DAW. You can produce, you can mix it, right? You can record this at home, right? You can do it's like" And they start do all this free labor that they're not financing or providing for. So they're not like actually enabling.
And same with like workplace stuff, of course, right? Like with the unionization and like uh like having like um manual like you could you clocked out like you used to be able to clock out.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I know. I mean, and then with with YouTube, I guess we we dug our own graves, but it is the same kind of uh Yeah. following these like kind of strict schedules where like if you don't do anything, you literally disappear.
>> Yeah. It's crazy.
>> You can't like go six months without posting because you didn't feel like it.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> You can't come back with a heater.
>> I can. I can. I No one else can, though.
>> You're around though. You do you do a lot of stuff. It's not like you do nothing for 6 months. I did I did nothing for three weeks and it was like >> I was like I can't keep doing this.
>> I've been thinking about it. I've been thinking about because I'm starting I am spread too thin and that like I'm always doing things but I'm feeling like things aren't getting done despite that which is not a good situation. So I'm starting to think that maybe at some point I will have to be like okay I'm not do I have to I might have to take a break at some point. Um just like to tell myself like cuz because something is slightly poison again California I when I'm like I'm going to work on and again on one on one hand it's like suitable to me because I'm interdisciplinary and very like you know what I mean? But like there is something kind of poisonous when it's like I'm like trying to make a YouTube video while I'm trying to make an album.
It's like I can't [ __ ] you know, I've started I've started to feel a little haunted by like what if I stop doing everything but one thing for like two months and just see what happens, you know? Yeah.
>> Um instead of putting that endless pressure on yourself.
>> Yeah, I know. Especially like >> why are you I don't like the way you're looking at me. You're like laughing at me. You're laughing at the things I say.
You're laughing about things I was saying about California. You're laughing at me now. What's going on? I'm just thinking about my advice to you, which is that, you know, every YouTuber gets to the point of rigor mortise and it's really peaceful. It just sort of washes over you and you never do any work ever again.
And and like cuz like uh cuz because Broen Broen got uh a bunch of money and now we're all going to just and it's going to wash over us and it's going to be really peaceful and the number in our bank account is going to be the exact same for the rest of our lives.
>> I did. I I got a bunch of money in one month and it destroyed me.
>> This is so a typical view though. Again, it's so funny. I keep drawing parallels to like the last podcast we did two years ago because I feel like that was around the same time that you got like a bunch of money and then went on a bender and they were like, "Oh, I regret it."
You know what I mean? Like, "Oh, I went back to work now. You just blew it all."
>> No, I didn't blow it this time. I just got a bunch of money and started doing nothing.
>> It's so funny. That sounds nice, though.
>> I mean, no, I'm back. I'm back. I feel really I'm really motivated and like kind of like starry at again.
>> It was It was two months. I want I want to I I want to I at least then if we're going to sink into like rigam mortise then I think we should at least be doing community organizing stuff. We should at least be doing dope [ __ ] and like organizing dope [ __ ] in Toronto.
>> I agree.
>> Why don't you two put some labor into organizing something for Kill the Internet? Pick up some slack.
>> It's your show, buddy. We got enough stuff to do.
>> I do I do another live show. It's been so long.
>> You want to do one? Can you help me book it?
>> Oh yeah, I'll I'll collab on this.
>> That' be dope.
>> Do a live show.
>> Yeah, that'd be sick.
>> Be so fun.
>> It would be fun.
>> I love doing IRL stuff. Yeah. And I just want to I just want to keep brainstorming more stuff just like park based stuff. Just like dope [ __ ] that >> drinking in a public park.
>> Drinking in a public park sounds amazing. We should do it every Sunday.
>> Active defiance. It's revolt against the modern world is is drinking in a public park.
>> Okay. So now we're getting to the pro alcoholism stuff, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I was think well cuz you know when you when you talk about the the willpower thing and like collective collective action and collective like will I was like oh it is kind of beautiful that like you can if you see your ability to not use the phone as a as a individual failing of your own willpower. It's really hard to get past that. But if you see not using the phone as like a spiritual journey and a a spiritual goal as a revolt against something, I find it way easier.
>> Or like if not using the phone is a kindness you do to other people, right?
Like that's I think that's probably the bigger thing, right? Is like and and so that becomes more possible when like you know we go out to if we go out for a dinner together like guys, why haven't we gone out for dinner together?
>> Are we going for dinner alone?
>> We go for dinner just not without you, you know?
>> Yeah.
>> You show up here more randomly.
>> I realize it's just my fault. Okay, got it. It's cuz I'm not here. Okay. So, anyways, um the uh but but when you go to dinner together and you are not looking at your phones cuz you're doing that together, like that's something, right? Or if I ask you for help with something, right? It's like now I'm around someone, I can't use the phones.
Like, it's kind of like this this like um like it's this feature not bug thing of like, you know, when sometimes when you're at the studio and you're trying to lock in and you can't cuz there's people around, so you're having too much fun talking. Really, >> it's like that's that's the the inverse of that is like if you be around people, you're not going to be doing technology all the time. And so the only extra missing pieces you have have a meaningful structured activity together.
So whether that's formally playing or like a theme a thematic party like you're going to do the whisper party soon or whispers the entire time or if it's like I think a big thing is like um and this was uh I know a lot of people are talking about this but Dr. Fatima did like a good video about this and spoke well about this and performed at one at the kill the internet IRL uh show in in San Francisco actually um also performed on it but like lectured on it but like the the idea is like the um price of community is inconvenience >> and that like we need to inconvenience each other way more and ask people for help way more because like the individual willpower thing like the great lie like that's programmed into your brain is like it's that that's what enables you like that's what enables you to like take Ubers instead of ask for a ride, right? Or like order something instead of like have someone make food for you or make food with someone, you know, is you have to inconvenience each other and get cozy doing it. And because like that the desire to not bug each other and not ask for things, I think it feeds into the technofudal future.
>> Yeah, I think I agree. And I just think like um I see sort of when when you get on about like you know using stimulants and being productive and I think there's this especially in young men right now there's this wave it's been the wave for a while of optimization being a form of protest. It's like I see I see like you know high agency highwill young men look at the world and they think oh the way I do better is like I don't engage with the slop and they see the slop as like sports and friends and drinking. They're like, "The way I get better is like the true the true expression of my will, of my masculinity, of my of my of my aggression." Yeah. Optimization is to optimize and like, you know, >> like grooming and and it's gonna be finance.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Grooming yourself in finance. Exactly. Right. So, you have to flip it and you have to see like an expression of your will, expression of your like power and your agency is to revolt against it >> is play. That's the It's very It's It's so true. I mean, that's that's what I it's it's like the poison that we're describing. Um like is like apparent when like I when I think about like I I'm hosting a a party tonight at my place because it's like Victoria Day so we're celebrating the Canadian Victoria. Um and like that that thing creeps in. I feel it creeping in where it's like but or I could work like have I worked like you know I mean I'm not defining myself by the my my meals so much as I'm defining myself by what the productive things that gets accomplished in the day. And so I do think you're right. I think that like finding identity and like artful [ __ ] around is like so important is encountering a spirit of play and understanding that's much more like what your life is versus the amount of screen time you did in the week or like the uh amount of hours you worked on something. You know what I mean? Or like even the date by which you get something done. It's like what's I mean that stuff matters obviously but like like to in terms of business and sustaining yourself and sustaining systems.
>> Yeah.
>> Even in sustaining communities even too.
But like it's like are you are other people involved? I don't know. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's it's it's a hard it's a hard thing to parse because it like it's like you're saying about the uh things things without limits, right? Is like productivity has no limit.
>> Yeah.
>> And >> of course not because it's about how much it it frames everything within the like the the the hours within the realm of productivity. So even rest time it gets conceptualized as necessary in order to keep the like how much do I have to rest for this to you know what I mean?
>> Yeah. 100%. I I think I think it is like it's worth I don't I've been I've been on this recently, but like just what the what the the meta narrative of the western world moving forward will be once like we inevitably sort of automate away so many things that I think we're going to automate away is we have to like rediscover what like the reason why we did things in the first place cuz if it was to build technology and then all of a sudden we don't we don't really have a hand in building technology anymore then it's like what was it for right cuz like productivity >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's why it gets religious.
>> It needs a limit. It needs a limit. Like we need to think about like what the what what was what is my productivity for? It's like conducive to building it's conducive in so far as to building a good life for myself, but past that there's like diminishing returns. You have to find out what the return is and when the return stops.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and we we have to figure that out as a society. I think I think I'm what I'm feeling and it's the the optimism of everybody I' I'm getting too optimistic right now or I'm feeling almost annoyed by it. But it's a beautiful summer day in Toronto right now and Toronto is so [ __ ] sick in the summer. So it I am also sincerely feeling like like I think really check in with your friends like about that.
Like I think we have to be talking to each other more about like what we are spending our energy on right now. You know what I mean? Like like like bi-weekly or weekly like like not or just remember to do it more. You know what I mean? And ask for help in those goals.
>> I think it's just so important.
>> No, it is your life. There's no rehearsal. You know, >> there's no there's no rehearsal.
>> What you do with your day is just your life. Like there's nothing else.
>> It's crazy. That's what's so sinister, right? Where it's like if a phone trying to optimize your time on screen, it's like, dog, that's your life.
>> That's your life.
>> That's your actual 20s.
>> It's crazy.
>> It's insane. There's nothing else, right?
>> So, yeah. I don't know. It's important.
Yeah.
>> So, we're going to drink beers in the summer tonight.
>> Yeah. Go watch fireworks on a balcony and drink beer.
>> It's going to be [ __ ] beautiful.
>> And order pizza or something.
>> Yeah. That's that's the meaning of life right there. That's what it's about.
That and then the art stuff is the art thing. I went to a house show just the other day. um uh like just of like my music network in the Toronto like jazz school people and different [ __ ] So I went to like a house show and then like a gig um at the trans act um and yeah the house show it was just like a house show. When was the last time you went to a house show?
Everyone's drinking Kors Light and there's just two acts and they just have a bunch of amps and like their gear and there's I was like I it was so um like soul nourishing for when I was sitting on the floor like in this group of people only some of which I knew, right?
And like I was watching someone just do some like minorly like experimental art with like pedals and like bass and and stuff like that. And I was like I was like I felt like this is the thing about art that I think is so important that I I try to like that I'm always hammering on about because it's like that I it wasn't just enjoyment like it wasn't even I don't think it was it was a little bit like oh this music isn't really music I'm particularly into at points, right? So it wasn't pleasure but it was I knew that I was like this is the meaning of life. Like this is it.
I'm at a house show seeing art. And so it's like a group of people. So, it's not just the hanging out, but also the structured activity is I think what really turns life into like something.
So, the arts component I think is very like significant.
>> Was it packed?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> It was a tiny house >> because everyone everyone else is like, "Hell yeah." There's b a bunch of like a bunch of other people think feel the same way.
>> It was beautiful.
>> It's crazy. It's like it's not like to go against this idea like >> that the world just gets increasingly like recursively darker and like it doesn't like you go to Trinity Bellwoods on Sunday and it's packed.
>> Everyone's outside and like there sure there's people inside somewhere.
>> That's what I think. I do think it's like there's that's the cruelty. I've been mixed on this because I went to like a talk recently with someone in Toronto, like a professor guy that he was doing like one of those like drink and think, sip and learn type shits. And uh and it was about AI and he was more bullish on it basically. um he was doing he was doing the thing and it was frustrating because I also asked him a question in the Q&A and I was like okay I felt like he was being very professorial you know what I mean and that he wasn't he was saying well some things are good and sometimes well you know and I was like I I was like what do you think love is like cuz you're talking about people that are saying they love their AI right so what do you think love is embodied like over time what is that to you know what I mean like outside of that and then he just gave another one of those like kind of professor I'm like I'm like I need you to speak as a person like I need you at some point, right? You can be really nice while doing other stuff. Like I I was trying to prompt it in the Q&A at least. Jesus Christ. But anyways, the um the the the light defense thing, right?
Is like there's some use like he was being like maybe AI can have positive emotional benefits for some people, right? Maybe some people do need like uh emotional supports through particular events and uh some people don't have people, you know, or maybe like you know there's saying that, right? Like maybe there is some utility to having a relationship or an emotional sort of support thing through AI. Maybe that's a real service that some people need cuz not everyone has community basically or like whatever, right? Like one of the things they thought about was um shift workers like people that work night shifts or whatever that are like not operating at the same hours of a lot of other places in society. Maybe they need some companionship at different times.
And I was like but I do think there's just a fundamental cruelty in that where it's like where it's like let's surrender like the lowest of society to the machine. Like I know that that's there's I I don't know. You know what I mean? It's like no, we have to go in their house and get them out. you know, we have to keep making beautiful things and cool things for people to be at like and and not and not and not um validate or excuse or enable like this people staying inside thing. Well, and to this end, I'm really on your on your on your team with this, right? It's like um the and just bullying the people >> that are saying or like not I think it's important not to to cater to the maximally online, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Like you have to insist that there's more out there.
>> Yeah. I mean, um, you know, some people don't care, but who cares about them?
>> They don't care about going outside.
>> They don't care about going outside are people.
>> Well, I mean, you're actually saying completely different things. Who cares about them is very different from for >> No, no. I'm saying I care about I care about I care about the people who are there against their will who need coercment. I'm just saying like there's a percentage of people who like wouldn't be bothered with socializing in any circumstance.
>> There is a very small small percentage of people who genuinely have no desire.
Yeah. But those those people are so >> just generally they kind of leave them alone, right? But like but like like I think that um the uh well kind of leave them alone some of them >> but most of most like most people uh like there are there are genuinely like introvert extrovert zero to 100.
There's people who are zero. There's people exist. They have a personality disorder called skitsoid personality disorder you know and I've met those people. they >> so the reason that I find those things related right is this is reminds you of optimism and this is part of like the research on status that I do right part of the reason it matters is because like the this the optimism okay so do you know what optimism is >> no >> okay so like there's basically there we had uh in culture uh in American culture in particular but American UK the world whatever um the uh oh my god I just did it holy [ __ ] I just did the optimism thing kind of okay okay okay all right So listen. Wow, you rolled your eyes.
>> I like but got woozy.
I got I got woozy cuz I was six words into a thought and you were talking about popism and then you interrupted your own thought with like more dopamine, but keep going.
>> Um, so the so rock was a culturally dominant thing obviously for a while.
Um, and then but coming into like the '9s and like the 2000s, which is the same time as the rise of the tech culture of the neoliberalism achieving peak everything, social media and all this [ __ ] slowly unraveling, right? Um, what was happening culturally at some point in there, there was like this famous uh like article that got published that was like something like what's the deal with rockism? something like that because there was a culture in uh music criticism with like the the the journals and reviews and magazines and [ __ ] that they just treated um rock like only kind of rock based stuff um generally also by like just like white dudes as kind of worthy of artistic serious being taken of artistic seriousness. So like even like hip-hop even even like hip-hop and uh but definitely like pop music like even like pop divas and [ __ ] like that like they were they were they weren't treated seriously like critically. There was like a a famous thing where it's like I forget who it was, but like um Pitchfork reviewed like a pop star's album, but that was the joke. Like it was a joke that they were reviewing the album because Pitchfork has those meme thing.
They used to do those meme things, right? And so the joke was that like Pitchfork.
That's kind of what people were referring to though is that people were like were like why can't we take like Olivia Rodrigo seriously like artistically? Like why is Britney Spears completely not worth like even like talking about? And also this kind of like a kind of like patriarchal macho sexist uh white bent to it as well, right? So anyways, but then we enter this area of optimism which is um which now it's we've hit like peak optimism, right? Which is like let people enjoy things which is that everything is worthy of consideration and that like you actually can't draw barriers about what is art and what isn't and what's valid and what's not and people are like emotionally identified with the fact that they're into Taylor Swift. And if you suggest that Taylor Swift isn't really art, it's just slop or it's like you know commercial slop and it's for you know what I mean? Then then uh people go like, "Hey, they're all like emotional now about like what is and isn't art because that's about them."
And so everyone defends their beliefs endlessly on the basis of their endlessly valid subjectivity. And so the what's what's embarrassing about that is this surrenders culture again to like the technoc capitalists and to like decadence and populist decadence. You know what I mean?
>> Where it's like the the thing is most popular is by default the most good.
>> Yeah. Of course. Or Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So this is like kind of a cultural shift that happened.
It's it is related to the um like neoliberalism techno atomization thing, right? Because it's just like you are boiled down to just your preferences and uh and no one can tell you that your preferences are invalid. This is like kind of where I'm starting writing the book is like with this like deep idea, you know, and that like all that matters is you choosing your like that the idea of like freedom and democracy got like co-opted by the technofudalists and got like systematized and this is like it makes it okay for like whatever you like, whatever you prefer, that's just fine. That's just as valid as anybody else's. And so you can't draw these lines. So you surrender power over to the technofudalists. I really believe this. So the thing about that is that the um is that we have to be able to make moral claims, right? So like so like the the if people prefer if they're introverts and they prefer to stay inside all day. It's like I think as a society it's like we should be allowed to say that's actually not good.
>> I agree.
>> It's not good. And that like in and it's actually life isn't about you doing the thing that you most feel like doing.
It's not even about maximizing your happiness. I don't think that's what life and society are about at all. I think people have to be like, "No, you're part of something." I really believe about people that don't like birthdays. You're like one of those, right? Where they're like they're like, "Oh, I don't like birthdays. All the attention on me." You know what I mean?
And there's a way where it's like um where I think that it's like like I think those people can probably soo themselves with the notion that they're being humble and that they're like, "Oh, I don't like having all that attention on me because I'm just like, you know what I mean?" Like it seems like a positive quality. But I think that birthdays are and even the song, the whole thing, wearing the [ __ ] hat, the cake. I think it's all important because I think you should endure like you should know what it's like to have a day of the year be about you. And like if you're uncomfortable with that, you need to [ __ ] get comfortable with that. Like you need to you need to be forced to do that. It's important cuz like this is part of what living a full life is, you know? Like I don't know. So anyways, I I think they are related, right? Like the so so doing the weird like the the like, man, [ __ ] those guys and also like let's not abandon them. Weirdly, they're the same thing. I think they are related. Pria Parker writes about this in her like the art of gathering thing. there is like a kindness to exclusion because it like makes for meaningful events and like I don't know there's there's just this balance that I've been trying to strike and that I in the status research and research on like moral boundaries and stuff where it's like it's helpful like it's the things can be better if they are somewhat exclusionary and if you do have a prescription an actual idea of what is good and if you're willing to make people a bit uncomfortable but in a manner that is with like goodwill it's not against them you know and it's also again it's like limited right where it's like not totalizing I don't know if that like like you know what I mean like if I'm doing a like a like a if I'm if I'm doing a like a like a if I'm going to do if I was so if I was going to so but if I'm doing parties right and every time I hosted a party you guys got sad that you weren't invited to the party I was like like that that would be problematic actually right if I felt like I had to like invite everybody over and I couldn't say no to people on things then it damages the quality and integrity of the thing I'm trying to build right but if I can do like hey I'm doing I had this experience in college when I were in jazz school and I tried I did a party that was like um that I wanted to do a party that was like just the jazz vocalists in our year so just our cohort right cuz it and and then on the day of right of course someone's like hey I was wondering if this person can can come right I'm just hanging out with them right now and it was like a like some synth player and I'm like and I was like or I was like no it's just for us right and then that night was very very beautiful and it only took I'm I'm realizing now also that was the only time we ever did that I just think we had to do a lot more of those kinds of things, right? These sort of like more pressurized directed.
>> I agree. Boundaries boundaries to events. Boundaries to entry.
>> Boundaries to entry. Requirements.
>> Requirements.
>> Yeah.
>> Nothing can be every can't nothing can be everything. You can't make you can't make everything everything.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I don't know. They're dicey thoughts, but those they're very related, I think, which there's a contradictory relationship between being able to draw those boundaries and actually being for everybody.
>> This is Yeah. This is sort of what like people when when people talk about like the the reverence they have for old old high art. It was high because it was like exclusionary, right? And that's what defines it.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's like when you democratize literally everything >> and like there's no barriers of entry to anything and everything's equally good and everything's equally moral.
>> Yeah.
>> That it's like okay now you literally have no like you have no like desense on a ladder. You have no thing to get into.
>> Yeah. You have nothing to aspire to or to like no no glory to warm your hands by.
>> Yeah. Everything is just fine.
>> Yeah. like everything is fine and it's like that sucks. I hate the world.
Everything's fine.
>> It does suck. Yeah, that's what I say when my when I do a lecture. No, I think it was I was just I was just explaining it. I was trying to explain, but it's just like like why Protestantism is so unsexy because inequality is sexy. It's something I found in my research on like aeros. It's just like and like what what seduction is and like playfulness and enchantment and stuff like that is that like because Protestantism is literally like it's like it's like it was a it was a screed against the Catholic Church.
It's like all this like pageantry and money is being spent on just like like ornaments and stuff and like we we've taken a bunch of pagan things in it and like it's exclusionary. The priests only speak Latin. The people don't even understand what's being said. And Protestantism was like we need to just read the Bible and sit together on equal ground and like what does the Bible say and like we need to fix it, right? So it's like proequality. Um but but then but then it's like but but if you ever see like a Baptist church >> where everyone is wearing like slacks it's like an apartment.
>> It's just ugly. Yeah. It's so people just go like, "Man, [ __ ] you. bring someone back on and tell me what to do.
You know, it's exciting because it is exciting. There's nothing enchanting about like that perfect like, you know, like flatness, flatness, flatness.
>> That's what That's what I'm so I've always been enamored with the word content as like a term to describe things on social media cuz it like is literally just like the content of something like the formless.
>> Yeah. It literally could be anything like like water in a glass.
>> It's it's a it's a very like serendipitous term for what we've created. And we came to that like we converged on that word as to describe what it is. And I was like I'm a content creator. I make like I make the noise.
>> Yeah. We to that's that's the crazy thing, right? There's so many versions of this where it's like we literally like the whole planet like took on the economic language of California. Like that's crazy. Like we're talking like them. They exported their ideology across the entire planet. It's so crazy.
That's insane that we talk like that.
>> Yeah, I know. I'm from [ __ ] Nova Scotia. I shouldn't be talking like that. No one talks like that over there.
No one gives a [ __ ] It's awesome.
>> I love the chaotic energy with which you called into the show on that day.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
>> Oh, wait. You're Wait. You're gonna We're going to be with in Halifax together.
>> No, I can't do it. What?
>> It's too expensive.
>> All All the flights went up. [ __ ] >> It' be like a grand to fly me and Audrey out.
>> How long does it take to What is it normally?
>> Like 150 bucks.
>> What? Wait, how did it go up? Why does it go up?
>> Like fuel prices. Fuel prices are [ __ ] >> [ __ ] >> Everything's [ __ ] >> I'm going to go I'm going to go to the bathroom. Yeah. I need to get some water.
>> You guys should go. You guys should go for five minutes and we should end >> the whole podcast.
>> Yeah, we usually do only do >> Yeah, we're way over.
>> Oh, you're shortening them, right?
Right. Right.
>> Yeah, we only do an hour, but Yeah.
>> And also, Warhol's trying to get in.
>> You guys You guys haven't had your You guys haven't had a moment yet. I guess you should do the very beginning, but we've been talking for like an hour and a half.
>> Your energy is making me uncomfortable today.
>> Yeah, I know.
>> We're mismatched today. Just like a few days ago, we hung out like for a while and it was really lovely. Remember you were actually the last time we hung out?
I was like, "Man, your energy is like perfect today. Like you're you're like you were really funny. You're really on it."
>> Yeah. I didn't sleep the night before, so I was in like a manic episode.
>> Yeah. You kept telling me that this was the real you.
>> Yeah, I did say that.
>> You say that every state that you're in, though.
>> No. No, I don't.
>> Was that the real you?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. That you only got to see him for a little bit.
>> It was really lovely.
>> Yeah, that was nice.
>> Time with you.
>> H >> I had a nice time with you.
>> The real me.
>> Yeah. the me underneath the uh cuz I have a top level of uh of my brain and it burns away with inflammation and then it reveals the real me that's underneath.
>> Right. So right now you you have the is the like the pollution is back like that like stack.
>> The pollution's always there. Yeah.
>> Wait, what?
>> The pollution's like there almost 100%.
>> No, we're referring to different things.
So like I'm saying things that are distorting the real you. Like you're saying that sediment is back on top of >> Yeah. It's always there unless unless I like miss a day of sleep.
>> Okay. So, it's not always there >> or it's very good little ride there, huh?
>> It's very infrequent that it burns that top level burns away.
>> Yeah. How are you doing today?
>> I'm I'm the same as I always am.
>> So, you feel fine?
>> No.
>> You think Do you think I feel fine?
>> No, I don't think that. No, I don't think that. No, I don't think that.
>> I'm just like trying to measure what what's the difference in energy. Maybe it's because I had that day of you where you felt very clear and then it's like just like it's like a it's like a it's like going back to like a different flavor and I'm like >> yeah whiplash.
>> Oh, you just keep looking at me creepy >> and smirking at things I say like they're like laughable.
No, I think >> What do you feel about me right now? Do you feel sincerely hostile?
>> No, >> I feel hostile.
>> You feel hostile?
>> Yeah, I might kill you also.
>> Good.
>> Sorry. What were you saying?
Why are you What is the big pauses? Why are you doing this? You're being so [ __ ] weird.
>> We have a this this We have an autism meta. We have a we have a viveance meta society. It's the meta game.
>> People need to take more breaths.
>> This doesn't have anything to do with anything you're saying.
>> Sh does.
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Constantly. Try breathing.
It's okay. It's okay to have a little bit of dead air. Collect the thoughts.
It's not so bad.
>> In theory, I agree with you, but I feel you're doing it in a malevolent way right now.
>> I am. And that's the real horseshoe theory.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. Good stuff. I I don't want I don't want to hold Xavier anymore.
>> Okay.
>> I think the meaning of life is rearranging zeros and ones. And it's really inconvenient that it's about other people. I mean, I wish it was about rearranging zeros and ones.
I mean we are predisposed. We are like pred like we do have jobs where we kind of on some level we do like making something right. Right. Do we still or is it >> I like I like >> it would just be easier if it was all about taking vi and rearranging zeros and ones.
>> I I I I started working with like I I got the fire back in me because I just got some like I was inspired from the house show and I got my like audio hardware out and I was like getting my live show of like rap stuff and electronic back together and that's been so that's such a good feeling of just like actually making art. You know what I mean? and doing it not in the DAW.
Like I've always worked so heavily in uh like in like in production, but I think I I realized there's something spiritual about the audio production thing that's still like the same as the um video. It's like, you know, it's all just in the laptop, the laptop, the laptop. So getting like audio gear where it's like electric guitar and amp and pedals and like a looper where you're outside of the DAW, you're just actually making something. Such a [ __ ] relief.
>> Yeah.
>> I don't want to make all my art on my laptop. Maybe.
>> Yeah. Um, >> are you making art?
>> I Audrey, >> why are you looking at me like that?
Sorry.
>> Audrey show I I haven't Audrey showed me a movie last night that was really inspiring.
>> Which one?
>> It was called It's Such a Beautiful Day.
>> Oh, I love the movie.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, man. Audrey's got good taste. That's dope.
>> And I was thinking about I want to do this video about a rural diaspora. That' be like the title, like the working title of the video, just about being from like the middle of nowhere and then going to a city and like what you lose like what culture loses when they homogenize into cities. Uh, >> and I was like, "Oh, I'm now I'm going to make it about my dad and do the video about my dad as if he's a thinker and open with like a quote from my dad and then talk about my dad's life as if he's like a philosopher. The way I open my videos, I'm like in in 1958 in Montreal, Dave Wooden was born." And like just do that and then tie the video like do the whole video about like Nova Scotia culture, but keep tying it back to my dad.
>> Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, I've never I would not have had that thought if I didn't engage with this piece of art."
And it's so inspiring.
>> It's generative. The gift.
>> The It's beautiful.
>> Greg, are you making any art? That's what we're ending. We are you making any art?
>> That's where we're ending.
>> I mean, this is where we're landing the plane is talking about art. What What beautiful thing are we investing in the plane?
>> You fell off.
>> Fell off long time ago. Parachuting.
Parachuting down to ground. I'm watching the plane.
>> Are you making any art right now?
>> Yeah.
But it's like you get like oppositional defiance like disorder or whatever like in the face of valid points or something.
>> Valid points.
>> I don't know. I was I was I was in the It was in the face of me. That's I was feeling I feel like you're intentionally because of me like being more annoying and defiant and not answering questions. And is this what you deal with with the negativity thing?
Sometimes >> he's like inverting, reflecting, inverting, reflecting just like habitually.
>> Only when you're in a mood.
You look [ __ ] up right now.
>> You guys, >> we got to get the guest back off the podcast.
>> You guys just yap yap yap. Too much yapping.
>> Yeah, it's a podcast.
>> Yeah. Why? Why do we >> It's just ridiculous.
>> And that's the reward to the >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Xavier's motioning for us to kill him.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Do you do the gun thing? But he would never tell us to end the podcast.
>> Do you do the guns thing still? Do the >> Yeah, we do the push.
>> Okay. I wanted to I was ready to participate.
>> Okay. What's the horseshoe theory?
>> Uh I don't know. You guys both want to kill me now.
>> I We had like two of them already. You did a You had a You did a podcast, but then you don't want to have a podcast.
We have No. Okay. What's it >> I don't know. You're the pros at this.
This is your show. What What I don't know what the horseshoe theory even is.
My god, >> I gotta go. I gota go.
>> I like silence.
>> That'd be a good way to end it. I don't even know what the show really is and just fade.
>> I like silence.
Isn't that nice?
>> Okay. I just shoot or it's over. Okay.
>> It was just It was just It's just relieving to hear no one talk for a while.
>> Yeah.
That's a good that's a good that's a good end.
>> Man, that's so disappointing that I couldn't do the ritual of a podcast that I could >> You can't come here. Come on. Let's Let's do a shoot.
>> I think you guys should just both kill me.
>> Oh, we both mentioned killing big.
>> How about both of us shoot Greg?
>> Big pants, small pants.
>> That's the >> And that's the real big pants, small >> He's wearing the smallest pants. I'm wearing the biggest pants possible.
>> Okay. And great. It doesn't include me.
So, >> yeah. Well, you're dead. We're going to kill you >> finally. Okay. Put me out of my misery.
And that's the real horseshoe theory.
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