Speaking of Cults...The Scientology Experience with Natalia Hirsch (Part 3)

Ajouté : 2026-06-07

[00:00:10]The Speaking of Cults podcast is presented solely for generalformational, educational, and entertainment purposes.

[00:00:17]The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from it is at the user's own risk. The views, information, or opinions expressed by the host and guests are solely those of the individuals involved and do not constitute medical or other professional advice. Hello and welcome to the Speaking of Cults podcast. This is Chris Shelton, your host. Thank you very much for joining me again this week. I am very excited to bring us to part three of the Scientology experience. the sort of umbrella term I use to describe when I'm talking about somebody or with somebody about their Scientology life story and how they got in, how they went through it, and how they got out. And we have had many, many versions of this because there have been many people over the last, you know, 12 years who have come through this channel and um and talked to me about their Scientology experience. And it is hardly ever a one episode deal. People spend and invest decades of their life in this uh like I did. And they and they have adventures and uh and experiences and it there's a lot of ups and downs and thises and that and and every story is different. And yet there is always these same structural systemic issues and problems that constantly will rear their ugly head. And the reason that we know that this is going to happen is because it's a systemic problem. It's not bad actors, bad apples, it's a cult. And and this is what cults do to people is they systemically abuse them. But the variety of that abuse can be quite interesting um in and of itself. Now Natalya has walked us through Scientology in Ecuador and Venezuela and then arriving in Clearwater and we have been through a couple episodes now of some really interesting experiences. And we talked about last about some pretty tragic and horrible stuff involving her uh family and a young child and the seaorg in Clearwater. Now, I'm going to pick right back up on that. not with uh that story because I think we kind of explained what was going on there. But with the Clearwater situation, something that occurred to me recently um I think it's occurred to a lot of people in the ex Scientology space is um well, I'm getting right to the questions before I even Nat Natala, welcome back to the show.

[00:02:57]>> Totally. Bye. Thank you, Chris. Happy to be here.

[00:03:01]>> Yeah, I'm just picking right back up on where we were.

[00:03:03]>> Oh, yeah. I'm all interested.

[00:03:05]>> I'm so Anyway, folks, yeah, sorry about that. Um, okay. Now, like I said, we were sort of in Clear Water and um and now we're in the into the, you know, in the 2000s time period, right, where we're now in this space. And here are a couple things I wanted to sort of go over today to to to kick us off, right?

[00:03:25]One is that Scientology is a small world. And it is interesting how the same names and faces, you know, come in and out of, you know, various Scientologists lives. There's always the same, you know, basic thought leaders or opinion leaders at these different levels of Scientology. And of course, you know, the the the high top leadership is always, you know, Muscavage and Hubard.

[00:03:47]But um but it's funny what a small world it is. and and and before the show tonight, Natalyia and I actually realized we had been in the same place um which we'll go over probably in a future show. Uh but we were in the same physical location twice and and didn't see each other then. But we but but everything she's been saying so so far I I have known people she has been talking about. I have worked with people she has been talking about um and uh of course been to many of the locations she has been talking about. Uh it's just not that big and variet you know varied of a place is I guess what I'm saying. So, Natalya, now you uh as we described last time, you were living a sort of a a poor existence in Clear Water, a lower socioeconomic status existence there, which meant you were a Scientologist who wanted to get on the bridge, wanted to do services, your family was involved, everybody was on board with this idea, >> but you were not a Scientology whale or VIP or, you know, affluent Scientologist owning a company and this kind of thing who could fly in and out of Clear Water and spend thousands and thousands of dollars dropping, you know, intensive packages to, you know, get up to the OT levels and whatnot. You were uh, you know, broke ass Scientologist working your ass off in Clear Water. So, what is that world and experience? Let's just go ahead and start from there. Culturally, I'm curious about this almost almost anthropologically. I'm curious about what's the Clearwater Scientology community? Clear water. Yes. It's like we are like that sub um community, right? That is not quite the public of flag and is not the um the people that are non-scientologist in the clear water area, right? You are there um one of the things you are connected only with Scientologist even though you lived outside the everybody that you work with it's it's a Scientologist.

[00:05:53]Many reasons for that. one uh for example I did not have any other education other than you know finishing high school in Ecuador my English still you know didn't have any college education and any other skills other than scientology skills so finding a job in anywhere in the I don't want to say the word because I heard that is a bad word wag world right it but it's a world that is a non-scientology one yes I know that I learned later that it's actually a very bad word. Uh but as did we ally.

[00:06:29]Yeah. It's uh but we say all the time.

[00:06:32]>> Oh, we did.

[00:06:34]>> You know, when I was in in the last couple years that I was in, it started occurring to me that it I don't think I read I do not recall reading until after I got out that it was a racial slur. I just didn't know that. But I had no idea. But I found the attitude distasteful within Scientology. After I finished the RPF, I was kind of like, you know, yeah, we should like each other. And this this, you know, all this like toward people who weren't in Scientology really kind of irked me. And so I started calling them muggles instead. And everybody immediately knew exactly what I meant. All right. So I didn't use the W word. I even as even as a you know in the last couple years as a sea or member uh that's what I was uh using because >> and even you know you're out but you are in this prison of your belief or your bubble right so it's just not you know you kind of are very limited now like you said if you don't have any money you don't have any big connections we are basically you know taking the jobs that we can find within within there I did babysitting we actually kind of for example many of us give our names to the front desk of the at flag. So whenever somebody needed a babysitter and they wanted a Scientology, if your name was good enough or you know that you had a couple references, the people that know you, you could get uh jobs doing that.

[00:07:56]So I did quite a bit of babysitting with my um you know supervisor training. I also did some um kind of like uh touring to kids here and there you know until I was able to find another job. I didn't want to work at Deli because even though on those little jobs that I did here and there, I would make more money that working at the deli where my husband was cuz the the income there was like minimum wage. So by doing the you know so I was complimenting the income of the family with those things but that was basically to be able to survive right there was no money left on on things. So I'm on top of that there was also kind of like the pressure of um if we were not paying at the bridge but volunteering at the church right the church of Tampa you know that I it was one of the ones I several times went to cover because they were allow me not to do um supervisor for um you know for auditors or or in the class 4 classroom but for the um for the basic services.

[00:09:01]So I did volunteer there a couple times.

[00:09:04]Just they guilt me on it a few times here and there.

[00:09:08]>> They guilted you into volunteering.

[00:09:10]>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Because it's like you're not doing enough. And you always want to be in good standing. So you're always, you know, you don't have your stretch thing. You have no money. I cannot pay anything. I cannot go on course. I am working my husband is working three jobs, you know, on top of that to be able to be ends meet. I'm I'm working.

[00:09:29]There were times I had four or five jobs here and there plus trying to raise the kids plus paying at the point that where they were in um you know at two years old there was also the scare you don't put them in in a normal you know uh daycare they have to be on a Scientology daycare well that was the entirety of my income many times. So the way the things that we did just to be in good standing within that society was like it was such a pressure and um >> were there were there ever any communications or conversations openly about the Scientology daycare versus non-cientology daycare?

[00:10:12]>> Oh yeah, absolutely.

[00:10:16]>> Yeah, tell me how did this work?

[00:10:17]>> The the you know one of the things like you know public school or anything like that is evil, right? It's completely you know terrible. So your Scientology kids taking them over there you it's not it's totally you know bad thing the way with all their daycarees is just if they are not Scientology that they don't know how to do torch assist and this and that they don't do know how to you know all of those things that you want to that in Scientology is being a good parent right it's kind of like uh and they are full of psyches that's the other scare so as a parent trying to look for being able to work and trying to look for daycare.

[00:10:59]It had to be with Scientology and the Scientology daycarees, right? because the all of the schools start like around two two years old where you can uh deli starts at two with the prek that they call it two years old and I think the other the clear water academy also and it's extremely expensive even you know it's very very expensive >> and I guess I'm wondering >> who were the conversations with about this >> other parents also my ex-mother-in-law for example, she was like, "No, like you can't do that with my grandchildren, right?" She was very much a believer.

[00:11:40]>> I thought >> I was just trying to survive.

[00:11:42]>> I just like I was overwhelmed. I was okay to try to find we will do also things of trying to um so that's why I ended up until the many times doing daycare so I can keep also my kids and and get paid for other kids to to do that and then you know try to um get them in a school. I think I was able to take my daughter when I w when I gave birth to my second child to public school, but I was so shamed about it by everyone like I was doing. I was basically damaging my kid for doing that. So within a year of that, I had, you know, once again into um into Delan and into being like this of having to pay that tuition.

[00:12:31]Now I want to ask about I want to connect the dots between this and the son of your brother-in-law who joined the seaorg >> and then his wife had to join the seaorg and the kid was sort of taken with them and you all were involved with that for weeks months watching this go on.

[00:12:54]>> Yes. until they moved the whole family into LA and they just left kind of like cut communication with us completely.

[00:13:03]>> Right. Yeah. So having >> few months no a few years because he joined at six. The communication cutting started little by little but he was still there and they didn't allow us.

[00:13:15]Then then when he was about 10 they allow us again to bring him in and out.

[00:13:21]that turned into another disaster when he was 12.

[00:13:26]He ended up coming to my house. They what they told me is that he had a psychotic break.

[00:13:33]So he probably he basically we didn't get the details that he had a psychotic break. So by that time he was 12. So that he was 1991 was born 12 is 2001.

[00:13:48]So 2003 around around that time. So we are talking about that amount of time. So he came to my house they asked me that you know somebody came from the seor and they asked me to keep him there because they couldn't keep him as he you know he was a strong will and they were abusing him right and he was very upset and he um I knew I said as soon as he feels that he's strong enough he will leave.

[00:14:16]It was never his choice to be in the sea or in a way and you know everything that happened when he was in my house he was terrified because to him it was also losing his parents. He wanted to join the seaorg because he didn't want to be in the Qi anymore. Um and the and um and so I had him at home and I got him to get some testing for seeing where he was, you know, educationally wise and he was extremely behind.

[00:14:48]Once again, I started to write reports about the education system and where how is this happening and blah blah blah.

[00:14:57]Then uh from all those reports I you know together with the family you know we were very upset about it because he was not in a good shape and we were worried. So I we proposed for us to um adopt him. I actually was ready to adopt him. You guys want to be in the sea?

[00:15:18]That's fine. This is not good for him.

[00:15:21]We'll adopt him or we'll figure it out.

[00:15:23]You know how we're doing with the kids.

[00:15:24]You know just continue to educate him.

[00:15:26]and get him a chance. I didn't know if he was going to be in agreement with that or not, but give him enough education so then when he is old enough and decide to go and see her, he can go.

[00:15:36]You know, we're being good Scientologist.

[00:15:38]That at that point when I had that conversation with the mother, I remember they allowed me to talk to her. Um within couple of months, they all moved to LA.

[00:15:50]>> They all were transferred to LA, >> right? And after I really imagine that is also after all the reports that we were doing about his education level.

[00:15:58]>> Of course. Of course. No, I'm I'm sure those dots connect right up.

[00:16:02]>> Yeah, it was exactly at that point it was just and he then um joined the seor shortly after. So they >> you know he was still not you know >> basically they did whatever it was process or make it okay. I don't know what they because I don't know what they call psychotic break what exactly what you know all of this confidential and you know whatever it was they make him okay to join the seorc and that's um when we found out that he joined and by then there was you know hardly ever any contact.

[00:16:39]Yeah. And and let's keep in mind that the seaorg are the last people on the list of people who should be thought of as qualified to talk about psychotic breaks or mental health phenomena. So >> absolutely my own ignorance on all of that. was part of kind of like just I the only thing I understood is that he was in trouble and I want him out out of to me like I was a good Scientologist but I understood that the seorc was not for everyone and I also believe that you needed to choose to be there and for him being joined since he was six it was definitely not his choice so that's kind of like how I understood it right in a way that was still was able to be a good scientologist while not liking that se situation for him because he did not choose it >> and wanted to help in that way.

[00:17:37]>> Yeah.

[00:17:37]>> But I know they knew that he I don't know where they were scared probably, you know, a lot of the horrible things that happened to him once if we the outsiders get too involved is things that they don't want us to be involved.

[00:17:50]>> Sure. Sure.

[00:17:52]>> Yeah. because he was being neglected >> and abused.

[00:17:56]>> Yeah. No, I got it. Yeah. No, for sure.

[00:17:58]Um I people are people some people watch these things and wonder how could you how could this right and she and I just wanted to point out that that was what she just explained, right? Was that that how could you? It's all right there, right? Um just wanted to make sure everybody >> but I totally understand because I have asked myself that question for years.

[00:18:22]How could I? I knew that he was being neglected. I could see that he was not being treated. He was not being educated, >> right?

[00:18:32]>> I knew better, >> right?

[00:18:34]>> But somehow that this whole being on that cold and on that prison, it's just it's just, you know, you still believe that they know more than you. you still believe that maybe it's a glitch or something. You still have, I don't know, some kind of blind trust that when you take those blinders off, you see it again and it's it's horrifying.

[00:19:06]>> Yeah.

[00:19:06]>> What you were be able to justify because it's kind of like you justify it to yourself.

[00:19:12]>> Yeah.

[00:19:12]>> And >> Yeah.

[00:19:14]>> Yeah. I don't know how many times I have apologized to him. Well, no, I'm glad you described it the way you did because you, you know, one of the things that we don't um particularly mention a lot in a way because it's just so, you know, kind of so obviously there and yet sometimes it needs to be said out loud is that there is an authoritarian structure there. There's a hierarchy that Scientologists believe in. It's not just a control flow of, you know, those guys are at the top and they issue all the orders to us.

[00:19:43]We accepted the orders because we believed they knew what they were talking about. We believed in the structures and that the seaorg of all the groups knew what it was doing and had its, you know, relative [ __ ] together more than anybody else. So even if there were problems or issues, it this was a one-off. This was an exe.

[00:20:02]This was a this was a black swan event.

[00:20:04]This was a weird thing happening. This isn't usual. Everybody's not like this.

[00:20:08]This doesn't happen to all the kids in the sea or because we don't see all the kids in the sea or we just see this one example.

[00:20:15]>> It's all hush hush. They don't let you go. You cannot visit that. It is very So you're really not seeing that comparison.

[00:20:23]>> And on top of that, you're thinking, you know, you also are completely conditioned to believe that if the tech doesn't work or it's something is h is because of their own overts and and withholds.

[00:20:35]So on top of that, if something is going extremely wrong is the individual who you get your attention to. So in a way, yes, I I we love this kid, but in a way it was like he it was, you know, they're telling us they're having psychotic breaks and this and that. So it's kind of like he's doing something wrong. It's it's ridiculous to think he was a 12-year-old kid, a 10year-old kid, right? But the other thing is that there's no kids. We are all fatans in small bodies. So you have all of those things that you keep explaining yourself around. And the thing is that you truly believe it. I truly believe that we were theans that we on a body.

[00:21:19]So it was totally to me it was not anything weird to think that a little kid is not a little kid.

[00:21:28]>> It's a full-blown titan in a in a small body.

[00:21:32]That's right. And this is one of these things that actually makes sense logically. If it's true that we are immortal spiritual beings jumping from body to body, life to life, moving on, going on, you know, then we are fully mature spiritual entities, you know, millions of years old. We've been kids thousands of times. We've been old men thousands of times. Blah blah blah blah blah.

[00:21:56]>> We have died so many times, suffer so many pain and all of that stuff. And this is so what is this? We trivialize it.

[00:22:04]>> Exactly. So it's so when people say to me now I didn't used to believe this was true. I I could separate out the beliefs from the behavior.

[00:22:14]>> But the fact is that when it comes to beliefs like this they are the source of behavior of you know like we describe here where people look back on it and go how could I? because we bought into this idea that is frankly a ridiculous idea that you know we are immortal spiritual beings and these little children are just another version of us you know and if we just appeal to their you know maturity and to who they really are >> and they'll be fine right and is the best place I remember when I talked to his mom I remember because I was like we could give it but it's like there's no better place to him like here if he's having trouble here in the sea they're going handle him.

[00:22:56]>> Yep.

[00:22:57]>> She was just totally blindfaced of that.

[00:22:59]He The kid was acting out all over the place. But she truly believed that.

[00:23:04]>> That's right. It's a This is what I mean by these thoughts stopping cliches.

[00:23:10]These phrases, these cliches, these words we tell ourselves, shut down thinking. I don't have to think about it anymore. The Seaorg has it under control. That's a thoughtstoppping cliche. when a especially when a child is sitting in front of you having psychotic breaks and having all these troubles and issues and crying and upset and doesn't want to go back there. Well, the seaorg understands what they're doing. They got it all under control and I don't know what you're talking about.

[00:23:38]It's just it's totally fine. Do we a is a girl he's a difference that he's a little kid.

[00:23:46]>> Yep. It's it's it's you know 10 years later of being outside of there just thinking about it is I think I understand how people can ask the questions that they ask because to me I asked my myself those questions.

[00:24:03]>> Yeah. No, of course we all have and this is this is one of those horrible things that we have to talk about uh with ourselves some point you know in this whole recovery process is you know not only how we were victims but how we you know uh enabled the victimization of others cuz we did >> didn't stop it didn't just >> and it's part of being >> like you always say it's just been part of being the cult.

[00:24:29]>> Yeah, that's right. It's just part of the whole thing. Um, all right. Now, that being said about the whole Clearwater culture, I kind of wanted to talk about that for a bit because your descriptions were great and exactly the problem. And there are lots of scientologists in Clearwater. But keep in mind, a lot of them are fitting the descriptions she just gave you of somebody who's not on services, can't be on services, can't do Scientology, but are counted among the ranks of Scientologist. And I find that to be more than ironic. I find it to be a little disgusting.

[00:25:03]>> Yeah, we're on the list. We do sometimes we get kind of like do a course or something because you know we're pressure enough and we pay for it to be you know in good standing. We attend the the the you know the events because they sell you to attend to the events and it's a kind of like a way of being in good standing.

[00:25:27]Um I I think my um ex um sister-in-law got her wedding in in the in you know in one of the patios of the Fort Harrison.

[00:25:37]Like you stay connected because it's important to be in good standing. The more they see you, it's like how can I get we can get jobs to do construction for somebody to do babysitting for somebody to uh being able to be hired in a company. The other thing that happens a lot of Creek Water is like, "Oh my god, all the par pyramids uh of uh of selling a stuff like pyramids like Mway, pyramids like money-making ideas, they pyramids all Yeah.

[00:26:08]>> A multi-level marketing scheme.

[00:26:10]>> Multi-level marketing. I think I've tried every single one of them.

[00:26:14]>> It's funny to me how >> everybody wants to make money."

[00:26:17]>> Yeah. Every cult is just like draws MLMs in like a damn magnet. It is really amazing to watch. My parents were involved in Amway. But uh >> I was in Amway.

[00:26:27]>> You so you you saw all of that in Clear Water. It was all over the place.

[00:26:31]>> Oh, absolutely. There was this lady that was from India that she was um also what it lived in Clear Water and I you know she hired me to take care of her kids at night so she could cook because you know I had all those old jobs. So I had babysittings in the morning, babysittings in the day, work for consulting companies from time to time, you know, it was I moved all over the place and she was in Mway. So she got me in Mway after total disaster. I ended up, you know, spending a lot of money. Then there was another money-making idea from another friend that left the Seorc and he also another disaster ended up owing thousands of dollars. So on top of like trying to figure it out how to do things and you're so gullible and the thing is that because a Scientologist is telling you that gives another thing you believe them because they're supposedly to be ethical. That's >> right.

[00:27:23]>> Right.

[00:27:24]>> It's it's a whole so there's people making money out of like there's so many that it was thousands of dollars here, thousands of dollars there that we didn't have. And it happened the same with the housing thing. They were they I ended up I got my license for a mortgage broker. Uh I went and got working for a um Scientologist owned u mortgage company and it was they were all Scientologist and they were a big part of this whole game that created part of the uh because it was money-making idea refinancing houses to to get the maximum money out so people can pay for bridge and it's just you know they have the legal things of it and all of that stuff, but the the the businesses are built with that idea to prey on other uh money hungry Scientologist for bridge. And even those business speeches that you go to people's houses on those multi-level marketings or different businesses, they're always the speech is we're doing this so we can help people to get up the bridge.

[00:28:39]>> Oh yes.

[00:28:40]>> Yes. It's always that.

[00:28:41]>> Yep. So we get you get involved with other Scientologies with the idea of making money or helping others to make money to go up the bridge.

[00:28:52]>> Yep.

[00:28:52]>> I never made money on any of them.

[00:28:54]>> Nobody ever does. Uh there's about, you know, five people who make money on these MLM schemes. Do you know >> they already had money to start with?

[00:29:03]>> Yeah. The state you >> do you know which state in the United States has more MLM activity than any other?

[00:29:09]>> Florida.

[00:29:10]>> Nope. Utah. Oh, with which one?

[00:29:13]>> Utah.

[00:29:14]>> Utah.

[00:29:15]>> The Mormon housewives >> love multi-level marketing schemes. They are constantly constantly constantly the Mormon communities are alive with MLMs.

[00:29:25]>> And it's almost I could I could almost copy paste everything you said about the Scientology community >> into the Mormon community as well. And I and and I'm I'm just making the point that um including excuse me including that we're doing it for God. We're getting more people to God. We're getting more people into the church. See >> we're doing it to help people go up the bridge. Right.

[00:29:50]>> That's right. We're helping people go up the bridge. So >> exactly like that. it it, you know, the Real Housewives of of of Utah are not on real Mormon housewives are not on on Bravo TV doing the doing the ridiculous stuff. They're they're doing multi-level marketing.

[00:30:05]>> They're multi-level marketing.

[00:30:06]>> If you had real video cameras on our real, you know, uh cameras on real Mormon housewives, that's what you would see them doing, sitting on making social media posts all day, desperately trying >> cult. Absolutely. They are that cult.

[00:30:18]Many, you know, >> Oh, no. The Mormons are a total cult.

[00:30:21]>> Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:30:22]>> Yeah. Yeah. No. And Mormons are a total cult.

[00:30:24]>> So crazy.

[00:30:26]>> So yeah, that that's pen that is the life in clear water. You basically are um you know and then you can never play or you can you can never kind of like I don't know how it is in Colorado but you know from here I have so many friends and you can be honest about your situation and the ups and downs and things like that. In Clear Water you can't. you always have to be kind of like calling success >> but everything is fine >> and um and and trying to pay those tuitions and even when there was no money I was always catching up.

[00:31:03]>> I was always kind of like calling the the electric electrical company pushing my bill for a couple months recovering from that all those kind of things. The other piece that people don't talk about also is Scientologists are big on being and not vaccinating their kids.

[00:31:22]>> Oh, please do talk about this because I'd like to know.

[00:31:27]>> I was part of an investigation by the health department in Florida because of that.

[00:31:32]>> Okay. Well, please. Yeah. I like >> Yeah. So what happened is in Florida that's the other thing as being part of that community they are and you know they teach you even for the schools how to get your religious exemption for vaccines.

[00:31:46]Um they also tell you which doctors accept to keep seeing your kids when when you don't you choose not to vaccinate.

[00:31:54]Um so all of that it's very very much within the the the Scientology community is is strong and is very all over the place.

[00:32:04]when my kids were in and this was when probably my middle one was about two, no probably three and the other one was about seven around that time. So I had at that time both were going into the um into deli and of course they were not vaccinated and my oldest got a whooping cough and then the little one got whooping cough.

[00:32:33]If you have ever had a kid with whooping cough, it's absolutely horrific.

[00:32:37]I was, that's the thing. I couldn't leave them with anyone. I was at home and then you don't get, you know, I never had somebody that paid me paid leave or anything like that. It was uh moneywise it was terrible. I was actually living in a house that we were trying to fix. So I was living in the living room because all the other bedrooms were under construction with two kids vomiting nonstop because of the whooping cough. Now at that time there was because as kids get really bad those kids reported and you have to go to the doctor to get the medication to keep your kid alive. So go to and they have to report when they get you know that whooping cough. So there was this big pandem not pandemic but epidemic of whooping cough in the clear water and when they do the investigation more than the more than 50% of the kids that got whooping cough were all coming from deli. So a lot of us because we it's kind of like a big center would have a lot of congregation of people without without vaccination. So it it spreads like crazy. Now on top of that, it's not you know you are PTS. So that there's not even that consideration. So then the the health department in Clear Water starts an investigation and they call me home. I was freaking out. I didn't know what to say. And the thing is that we then deli coordinated with somebody in Flag to give us what we needed to say.

[00:34:17]how we needed to talk as soon as where all of those kind of things.

[00:34:24]>> So, you were all telling the same story.

[00:34:26]OSA approved.

[00:34:27]>> Yes. Whatever it was approved, >> right? Um I have a question and it's a and I'm and I'm really curious about this because I have an answer but I don't know that it's the right answer.

[00:34:38]Uh because I was in Los Angeles and Los Angeles is not Clear Water. They are different cultures and different Scientology communities. Yeah, >> obviously everybody's on the same page.

[00:34:47]Obviously everybody's, you know, under under the same system, but it's different. And so I'm curious uh es Oh, and also of course I was a Seorgorg member in Los Angeles most of the time and as a public person you were your experience of this would have been different.

[00:35:04]Why were vaccines bad?

[00:35:08]>> You know what? When I thought about it, it was kind of like be well government is bad, right? So that's what it was explained >> is that is that what >> the you know government is bad is a way of government to control, right?

[00:35:23]>> Okay. The government's bad. Got it.

[00:35:25]Yeah. Okay.

[00:35:26]>> So that is why um I don't know it was kind of like um a lot of Scientologies are into these a lot of conspiracy theories. Mhm.

[00:35:39]>> She's not not thinking back is not something that um but you know for example my ex-mother-in-law had a lot of things about you know things that you know natural and and they putting you know kind of like yes these the you know the uh world outside of Scientology they put so many chemicals on the world on the food and they put this and the medicines are bad and other than antibiotics right and then even painkillers hormonal therapy piece all of those kind of things is just can alter even though I don't think there's something as specific but the culture there in a way it was like that because I remember like wanting to sign up your kids for school the on the admissions they explain to you how to request that that um religious exemption for the vaccines like the school will talk to you >> and who's who's they who explained that to you >> uh well when I was you know when I was doing the admission paper the admission person at Deli I remember what was her name um gee I I had it for a second but it was kind of like that it was just part of like what you talk >> to people and um so the other thing is like you know the the formula that we give to four babies right the formulas you know all it starts like the formulas the commercial formulas are bad so we we do the formula that Elron Hover wrote. I don't know where he got that from, but my kids, all of them had that formula.

[00:37:14]>> The Barley formula. Yeah, >> the barley formula. Yes, >> that's right.

[00:37:18]>> That's right. Elron Hubard's child advice is almost uniformly really bad.

[00:37:24]>> Um, and inconsistent. So, it depends on when you're looking at his advice, too, because it changes over time.

[00:37:30]>> So, I didn't know any of that. You know, it was kind of like it's a it's kind of like this this club of housewives in a way, right? With the things that >> this is bad, this is this and and it all it is all framed within what and if you have an OT8 saying that that is this, it's like, oh yeah, yeah, she must know.

[00:37:53]We are so gullible to conspiracy theories and to and to not having our own thought.

[00:38:00]the Ze the thing that I'm wondering and I know that this is a really harsh way to put it but I'm going to put it this way just to put it there for the audience more so than I'm like pointing any fingers in your direction. Okay.

[00:38:14]>> No, no problem. Um cuz what you're saying is very representative of many many many Scientologists and she's just explained so beautifully why because that's what you're told to do by people who you believe in that they know what they're talking about. And yet, if if something tragic were to happen were to have happened to one of your children and some doctor or some official or some police officer asked you, "What the hell were you thinking? What what why was it so bad to go get vaccines?" I I wonder if you would have had any answer at all.

[00:38:57]>> Yeah, I I did not know. I don't remember exactly what because I had two interviews over the phone.

[00:39:02]>> Mhm.

[00:39:03]>> On on that they basically what I remember they coached me is that they coached me that it was I had to say that it was my decision. There was not something that the school pushed.

[00:39:16]>> Of course that's what they said.

[00:39:18]>> Of course that's what they said. was the one >> no accountability or responsibility of any kind while you literally just explained how it was the woman in admissions at Deli who explained to you very carefully >> do that >> how to not have the vaccines because of course you don't want your child vaccinated >> but I mean these people is the bad guy right so then we got to protect and we have to handle like we have to handle the outside world we have to handle the outside people. We have to handle them.

[00:39:53]So that's how you interact with the outside world.

[00:39:56]>> That's right.

[00:39:57]>> You are not in a in a prison with walls, but you are.

[00:40:00]>> So I am talking to this person that's trying to help me or trying to understand because my kids are really sick, >> right?

[00:40:08]>> And and and they're trying to understand where the epidemic is coming or what is going on. And of course the first concern of the school is we got to make sure that you were very clear that it was absolutely just your decision.

[00:40:23]>> Right. Right.

[00:40:25]>> Which I I did very I did what I was mandated to say.

[00:40:30]>> Right. Did you know when you were saying that that you were straight up lying? I knew that it I was lying but I knew that I needed to protect the school and the church from the outside world.

[00:40:43]>> Exactly. There it is.

[00:40:44]>> It's called as you know the protecting the church or protecting the PR because Deli is same thing. It's creating people that is a safe place for Scientology kids, but also it's in the hopes of of getting more people from the outside and and and understanding and knowing or having safe pointing Elron Hover.

[00:41:06]>> They have that same purpose.

[00:41:09]So, and a scandal on their hand, you are destroying the opportunity of clearing the world, right? You can't do that.

[00:41:17]And yet both of your children were sick and you knew that most that over half of the infections were coming out of that school.

[00:41:24]>> And it happened again here in Oregon.

[00:41:27]>> It happened in Bend.

[00:41:29]>> Here in Oregon, it happened again.

[00:41:30]Another >> It happened again.

[00:41:32]>> Yeah. Another investigation. Yep. And I was through it, too.

[00:41:37]>> Yeah.

[00:41:38]>> And see, this is what I mean. And I Okay, I'm just going to have to say this out loud cuz I I I need to because it just um this is what I mean though, but I'm not I'm not just ranting right now.

[00:41:50]Um this is exactly an example of what I'm talking about when I say how a cult reaches into you and rewrites your morals, your moral foundations, your very ideas of what's right and wrong and good and bad. because it's clearly more bad to bring disrepute on the church than it is to deal with your sick kids.

[00:42:15]Right. Like and and I and I again I'm not pointing any fingers right now. We all did this. My point is look what this does to you.

[00:42:24]>> Yeah.

[00:42:24]>> Right. Look what it does to us.

[00:42:27]>> And when it's a calculated manipulation that is being done on purpose, which it is in Scientology and there is no solution, they are harming kids. They are creating environments that are harmful to children >> straight up. I mean, this is such a great example.

[00:42:41]>> Very bad effects.

[00:42:43]>> Yeah. It's often >> and and we told ourselves we were we were great people all the best of intentions which don't matter at all.

[00:42:52]Your intentions just don't >> harm it. It harms the most vulnerable.

[00:42:56]>> Ah, it's just awful.

[00:42:58]>> It's it's absolutely awful. No, it is it is it is terrible. And I and and I think the other piece that happens and you know you are so true when you are in Scientology is always us versus them and what is them the rest of the world.

[00:43:13]You really buy into that they're trying to destroy the only opportunity that mankind has.

[00:43:19]>> Y >> they are full of uh suppressive people or pts people. Right.

[00:43:25]>> Exactly.

[00:43:26]>> You buy into that. Well, you do. And and that and that's obviously part of the cult package when we talk about us versus them. It's, you know, it's not rahrh. It's like, no, this is like for real. We'll we'll we'd rather die than, you know, I mean, it's just crazy. Um, and that's the language that's used, by the way, too, right? You'd rather be >> It's not subtle. It's not settled. No, the world is evil out there. There is crazy.

[00:43:51]>> It's It's just They are insane.

[00:43:54]>> Yeah, they are. They are the only saying save island.

[00:43:58]>> That's right. Exactly.

[00:44:00]>> Um they do a real job at convincing you of that which is how the morals change.

[00:44:04]That's how they go so deep is they is they convince you that the entire world is actually them and it's just us, you know, few pluckucky sane rational scientologists out there to save the world, you know. And even if we're broke ass [ __ ] we're still, you know, in the at the top of the hierarchy of of rational, sane people. At least we're not at least we're not crazy, you know, people like those guys out there, those muggles.

[00:44:34]>> So, it's, you know, it's that kind of attitude. I remember it so well. I think what's surprising me in talking with you tonight about this is how uh kind of from how you've described it how basically unthinkingly compliant you were with these things. I if somebody had sat me down or confronted me when I was in Los Angeles as a staff member se member and said you know why you know what about this what about this what about this I I would have had answers. I always had like, you know, this whole narrative figured out of of of what, you know, all the conspiracy theor I recruited people with those conspiracy theories. I was like crazy into that stuff. I thought it was just the most fascinating stuff ever. And Hubard talked a lot about things and so I thought it was all true because Hubard talked about it. It wasn't just Alex Jones. It was Hubard, you know, and and from Hubard came everything else. Mhm.

[00:45:30]>> Um, so I have to now wonder I'm wondering to myself, right, in this that being my experience, I always kind of thought, well, people, you know, people would come up with some kind of reasons, but but it's such a great point to see.

[00:45:45]YEAH. NO, SOMETIMES IT'S JUST, NO, this is what you're supposed to do. Okay, I'm going to do it. Mhm. Yeah. They they hijack your mind and and that's why it is so difficult when you get out to >> when you get out and you start recovering your mind and you look back >> sometime I don't recognize that person >> you do go through like how >> right >> and at the moment that that was happening it's not that I was considering myself to be a follower right but indeed I was >> right right exactly >> what I have a couple other questions about the Clearwater thing. Um, real fast, I guess. Um, you have Tampa and you have Miami further down the road or further up where where is >> Clear Water is like only about an um an hour 45 minutes to an hour from Tampa.

[00:46:37]>> So, we're really close. Yeah. Clear Water and Tampa. Very close cities.

[00:46:42]>> And Miami is further down the coast.

[00:46:43]>> Five hours south.

[00:46:45]>> Five hours.

[00:46:46]>> Yeah. Five hours by car. Yeah.

[00:46:47]>> Oh, wow. I didn't realize it was that far away. That's a that's that's that's >> called Alligator Alley.

[00:46:53]>> Really?

[00:46:53]>> To get there.

[00:46:55]>> Interesting. Okay. So, you were so you were volunteering or working down at Tampa from time to time.

[00:47:02]>> From time to time. Yes. And I became a staff of Tampa at some point, too. And I got out of it, too.

[00:47:09]>> Oh, >> WELL, I GOT GUILT ON IT MANY TIMES. SO, that's one of the things, you know, that I because you always want to be in good standing. So, you're not going up the bridge. you're not paying the money. So, they were opening the um the test center in St. Pittsburgh that it was part of the Tampa or they needed a staff for it.

[00:47:30]So, I I went and they I was able to get us part-time in there for some, you know, as a staff part-time because I still needed to work and and all of that. So, I got my Tampa uniform and I went and did body routing.

[00:47:49]>> How long did you do that?

[00:47:50]>> I only did it for about I was always able to sustain it for about probably like three months and then I routed out. I had so many tickets because I was always late. I got so many so many parking tickets. It was a It was like it's just too much. I couldn't handle it. I and and I had just like to pay so much money on tickets and yeah but I worked there um you know I was there on the inauguration with John Travolta so I got to meet him for a little bit with a few staff over there uh the big inauguration and then just kind of like hang out in there tried to body route and never seeing anybody do anything on that center for those three months until I routed out you know found the policy like I have all this debt And I, you know, that's a liability and I was able to do my whole routing out and in good standing out of the Tampa or but yeah.

[00:48:49]>> Wow.

[00:48:50]>> So I was for a minute.

[00:48:52]>> So were you ever on actual course or services at Tampa?

[00:48:58]>> No, I did not. I work I volunteer on their on their uh you know public courses at times. Yeah. The only services that I did after I left the outdoor outdoor program was that auditing that was paid to, you know, fix whatever that never got fixed. Um, so that auditing there and maybe and courses really I didn't make any any courses at all.

[00:49:28]Maybe kind of like buy a book from time to time. I we needed to keep some you know good standing type of thing but I avoided well I didn't have any money so I'm just like was very good at staying like kind of invisible in a way.

[00:49:49]Well, I'm you you said something a couple times that quite a few times actually that is that have caught my attention because I haven't particularly heard other people I've talked with say this and and I'm sure it's a Clearwater thing because I haven't spoken with a lot of people from Clearwater, you know, and it just so happens that, you know, all the interviews I've done have been with people from kind of all over the place. um not from the main concentrations of Scientology >> and um and that is this thing about staying in good standing.

[00:50:22]>> Mhm.

[00:50:23]>> I'd like to know when it was if you can remember that that concept first came into your headsp space as an obligation. Oh, I have to go do this or I have to buy this or I have to say this because I have to stay in good standing because that's that's an interesting phrasing and I'm wondering where it came from.

[00:50:50]>> Well, I this is something that I remember everybody saying it in a way.

[00:50:56]Second, you get re reg constantly or approached constantly to either recruiters or or that. And what I rem say no or try to, you know, I can do this but not that, you know, a fine line without being reported. Like I remember my uh exister-in-law, she got reported and went thrown in ethics uh you know with uh because she kind of like got upset a couple of times with people trying to recruit her from for the seorc. So it gets to a point when they really kind of like rage your heart that it's it's like it is almost your corner and you have to and if you are not in good standing you we are terrified of being um you know being labeled suppressive or being lab because you're losing everything. So you are on this fine line. So sometimes it's kind of like when they're reging you for something for a book. Hey, I can just buy this book now or I can just do this now or okay, I could help a little bit volunteering here. That's kind of like giving a little something because the insistent is constant.

[00:52:21]>> But you were under the impression that if you didn't do these things, you are not going to be in good standing. And I'm >> Yeah.

[00:52:29]>> Yeah.

[00:52:30]>> I'm I have an idea of of of what that means. And I'm just I'm I'm I'm asking you about this because I'm curious what your idea of what that means because I think in LA it was a very very different experience. No one ever talked about being in good standing. That's just not a phrase we did >> that was talked about, right? And people, you know, were certainly reported on, but I'm wondering, it sounds like in Clear Water having a report written on you was one step away from being declared in your mind. And I'm fascinated by that because the policy on it is that a report is like step five and being declared is like step 40. I mean, there's a lot of things between having a report written on you and being declared suppressive. And I only say that not because people don't get arbitrarily declared in Scientology.

[00:53:22]Happens all the time.

[00:53:24]>> The question but but my my wonderment is it doesn't happen so often that one report equals oh my god terror. I'm going to get declared.

[00:53:33]>> But that's in LA. That's why I'm wondering in Clear Water it might have been a little different. Why were you >> flag in a way is kind of like very heavy.

[00:53:41]>> Yeah.

[00:53:42]>> The water is a smaller. That's the other thing. It's like also with your employers or or the ability to get employment if you are not in good standing. They you you know kind of like they kind of even pressure you and then it's somebody with power over you pressuring you on things.

[00:54:01]So you have to come up with a life that and you don't want to say you don't have any money because if you don't have any money you got to go and and handle ethics right and handle conditions.

[00:54:11]So you know you know what I mean it's just because you have any money you're doing something wrong right and bad. So I remember >> so it's not only it's not let's go do these conditions to give you some help.

[00:54:23]It's oh you're so [ __ ] up that I got to now send you to ethics because you can't make any money. Exactly. You cannot pay for that. Yeah. It's very much like that. So you're always kind of hiding in a way >> and you're ashamed.

[00:54:37]>> Yeah.

[00:54:38]>> Right. Because then you are in there you are surrounded by whales or people with money and it's like should be easy. But at the same time the people that you work for they are paying you nothing.

[00:54:48]You have no benefits. There's no and especially for immigrants like us, we don't have anybody else with uh we get we are first generation.

[00:54:59]So whatever money we just started making it when we started working here. There's nothing that we started from we started from zero.

[00:55:09]>> Right?

[00:55:09]>> So in between us is also that that kind of thing in between the kind of like the immigrant community because there's a big immigrant community too. many people that come and bring their broth from the seaorg then they leave the seaorg they stay in clear water and you have all of those different uh pieces and we are first generation we don't have anywhere to go we don't know anybody else we don't even know the American culture in a way we only know the scientology culture >> right oh believe me I don't understand >> we don't understand the government we don't understand any of those things that if you have joined you know or you have lived here for us all we know is scientology I know English because of reading Alon Harvard so it's kind of like being in good standing is like it's very important because it's all we know >> makes total sense >> and we become experts on diffusing saying the right things staying on the and and Yeah, there is help. I remember, you know, hiding after the events, excuses for the events, knowing what doors to go be so I don't get reg. We had time things around, but make sure that somebody sees us or whoever is, you know, kind of like we're boss that time that it's like we are kind of like we are part of this group.

[00:56:37]um totally hating it because it's like you know it's just stuff like that that is just it's you know sounds insane but that's the life it's our livelihood. We need to be considered to be in good standing by our employers by by you know the people around us that are the ones that say if we if we can or and it's also the people that you go in business with with those MLMs also is the people that you know so you enter in business with you work for or or they are your friends and um and it's it's just this micro cosmic big thing that being in and and that and I remember even like oh um you kind of like people even asking you oh yeah I'm going to f I want to hire somebody to take care of my kids and they needs to be in good standing with the church.

[00:57:38]So between Scientologies, I even remember that >> like um you know on a tutoring uh group that I worked for a little bit also you know it was important that they they did hire people that were non-scientologist but if you were scientologist there was the question if that person is in good standing with the church.

[00:57:59]>> That's right.

[00:58:00]>> Deli the same thing. Deli will it will >> it's important that you are good in good standing with the church. it is >> they will knock on your door to handle you if you are not showing up to course.

[00:58:15]They will try to handle you. They will even put oh yeah so and so have a credit card that he can give you the money so you can you can get back on course. And uh I became very I don't know I did so many excuses because I was like I was never like for too long in course there were sometimes there was no other out out and I needed just to do something even if I didn't have the money. Um but there was yeah I think I paid for the purif I don't know how many times. I don't know.

[00:58:54]How did you imagine you were going to get to OT?

[00:59:01]>> I that was I was afraid that I was never going to be able to because I had so much trouble.

[00:59:12]I did not think that I could and that was something that I thought there was something really wrong with me.

[00:59:21]>> Right. So I h I carry that and but it was more um but without with no doubt that Scientology worked. It was doubt on maybe I'm just just this horrible bad person that is totally twisted and and so aberated that will be able to >> Oh, >> I was convinced of that.

[00:59:50]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, >> I needed to survive. So, >> yeah.

[00:59:56]>> Yeah.

[00:59:57]>> It's just thinking back so stupid because the whole thing doesn't work.

[01:00:04]There you are suffering that it's like, okay, this thing doesn't work on me.

[01:00:07]Something wrong with me. But the whole thing doesn't work.

[01:00:10]>> Exactly.

[01:00:12]>> That is not something that I was able to realize until many years after I left.

[01:00:18]And that's what's that's what's interesting to me right now about this talk we've had today, right, is that a lot of what you've described are what I would have described or have have called, you know, the social cultural forces or pressures that we feel >> because it's interesting to me that you had this firm belief in it and I guess that came from your training because the auditing was just not doing it for you.

[01:00:51]>> Yeah.

[01:00:52]>> But you did the training and >> you audited other people and you went, "Well, the meter moved and the person's happier, so this stuff must work. It just doesn't work on me."

[01:01:03]>> Yeah.

[01:01:04]>> Right. Right.

[01:01:05]>> I was convinced it was something wrong.

[01:01:08]And it was like maybe at some point, right? But at the same time you I was just so overwhelmed to survive the day.

[01:01:17]>> Oh no, for sure. This is a and and this is even in a yearslong look that I'm talking about here now where not just in Clearwater but even going back to Venezuela and you know Ecuador um you know is this persistent idea right well it works it just doesn't work on me and then you have your husband who is the exact opposite he you know goes into the auditing auditing works great but he can't get trained to save his life right and again well works on him but you Oh, just that not just that training part doesn't seem >> still not getting it that it's not us.

[01:01:52]Right.

[01:01:53]>> Exactly. Right.

[01:01:54]>> Totally convinced that it's us.

[01:01:56]>> Exactly.

[01:01:57]>> We are the ones that have something wrong. Like what in the world did I did the last life that I'm not, you know?

[01:02:04]>> That's right. That's right.

[01:02:05]>> That's kind of like it's the scare like what what was I a murderer?

[01:02:10]>> You know, whatever like crazy idea like what did I I I did?

[01:02:15]>> That's right. This is the this is that that internal, you know, script flip that that the cults induce us to do where it's it's never the group. We can't criticize the group and we and and we've just bought so hard into it.

[01:02:29]You've done such a great job of describing like all the different ways that we have to buy into it, you know, because of all these pressures. These are not it's the thing that has been so interesting to me in speaking with you through these interviews has not has been that it wasn't the goal of OT. It wasn't the belief in Elrron Hubard or the dedication to the organization that was really driving you through all of this. It was an awful lot of familial and workrelated and cultural pressures and obligations and well now I'm married to this guy and now his mom is my mom and she's you know she's fanatical about this stuff so I guess I am too and you know and then and then it's you know it's one step to the next to the next to the next and you're in this group of like just fanatical people and well I'm just kind of booied along with this and it's just a whole another way of experiencing this that is just as valid, just as real, just as abusive. I mean, I'm not it this, you know what I mean?

[01:03:33]It's just it's just not belief driven quite the same way that I look at my experience where I endured, you know, some [ __ ] [ __ ] when I was in Scientology in the Seaorg. But somehow the the the purpose the, you know, the we're I'm martyring myself here because what we're doing is just so [ __ ] important.

[01:03:56]>> Yeah. you know >> and it and it was never >> yeah it is that >> you know we got have the understanding and that's why you kind of like end up all all the time trying to see okay how can I get on purpose but then not being able to see you know well in my case seeing what the seor did with the with my um my um nephew I couldn't see that for my kids you know that that was like that's not going to happen until then so not going in there for that then in an orc with the like we were not able to pay our bills like I I couldn't understand people that were there how cuz I I you know it's not that I can go and leave on mom's house you know we you know if we leave together is because we had to put the money together to make the rent >> that there was not somebody else that could you know that can be supporting that and um it was just deli was here in Oregon one of those things that okay it feels like okay Yes, that can be in purpose and they provide room and board, right? And still pay you very little. So that seems like more doable and a good solution for trying to continue to work that way, you know, and being able to give the education that is, you know, okay for the kids. But you make all those decisions based on on that.

[01:05:17]>> That's right. never you become trying to make it work to be in good standing close to Scientology and uh and there's not there's not ever a thought I was like what do I want to do or you know that was or what would I like to no it was what was available what I could do and what I could continue to be in good standing that was the whole I don't think I ever you know throughout all that um ever had the even the opportunity to ask to me like what kind of thing would I you know no >> wow >> I needed to survive be close to other scientologies whatever they could offer and keep myself in somewhat in good standing for my survival.

[01:06:08]>> Right. Right. It was a real survival point for you guys.

[01:06:12]And all of this kind of highlights in a in a sort of we haven't talked about it at all and yet it's kind of been there the spectre of this the entire time of you know clear water exists to cater to those VIPs.

[01:06:26]>> Yeah.

[01:06:26]>> Um clear Scientology Clear Water, right?

[01:06:28]It is there for one reason and it's not to lift up those on the bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder of Scientology.

[01:06:38]It doesn't even do that at this point.

[01:06:42]Now, you know, and this is the 2000s we're talking about. I think a Clear Water in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s was different, but um but I think it morphed into this. Maybe by the '9s it was this, but it was very but it's very much catering to this elite class of Scientologists.

[01:07:00]And and it and your story proves that Scientology doesn't exist or even care about you if you don't have any money.

[01:07:11]And you better just co tow the line and be compliant and do what we tell you and show up when we tell you and clap when we tell you and all of that. But that's the only use you have to us if you can't be giving us money and >> service your life in the seor. Right.

[01:07:27]Your life as a staff you just >> it's a it's a it's a cast system without labels. Exactly. Right. Because nobody has names for the lower class, you know, poor Scientologists. They don't kind of do that. Instead, they just don't talk about it because we're all one big happy family here in Scientology.

[01:07:47]>> Oh, absolutely. We show in the pictures when they tell us to come with a yellow shirt and show up to make numbers because they did that.

[01:07:53]>> Yeah.

[01:07:54]>> Right. There's going to be a photo shoot. So, we need everybody to show up.

[01:07:58]And there we were. I haven't been in the church for I don't know, six months. But here I am with a new book on that picture to make the group, right?

[01:08:07]>> Yeah. We did all that stuff. But it's not subtle. They they tell us to do and that's kind of like the things that you do to you know stay in good standings.

[01:08:16]>> Exactly.

[01:08:17]>> Of course, but I I you know on those times we show up on those pictures.

[01:08:23]>> It just I hope that people can see from this and it's a nice reminder for me of you know all these photos, all these IAS pictures, all these donations even from the whales. I mean, if we flip the script and look at it from their point of view, why are they giving all this money? I'm telling you, half of them are in the same boat you were, right? They they it works, but somehow it just doesn't work on me. But, you know, I got to support this cuz I got to keep up my job and my this and my that because everybody's so in locked into this ecosystem. And so, >> isolated. I'm sorry.

[01:08:58]>> You're isolated. You are completely isolated from the outside world because they are your enemy.

[01:09:04]and and then you you have they give you these jobs like for example I was a teacher at deli with never having a certificate as a teacher so with that you go in the outside world and try to find a job as a teacher I can't >> right right >> I don't have the credentials >> exactly >> but my so then try to make sense of your history of of employment to try to find a work in the real world >> I know it's of trouble.

[01:09:33]>> Yeah, it's a challenge. No, for sure.

[01:09:35]>> It's a big challenge. It is >> because it doesn't make sense.

[01:09:39]>> It's It's a challenge. I'll say that. I actually wrote about it in my book because it's because a lot of the skills are transferable, but you got to figure out how to >> Exactly. You got to learn like how to make them transferable. But when I first started, that's basically what I I went to somewhere to help me to okay, how we can write this uh so they can be transferable skills and and all that stuff. But that's right.

[01:10:02]>> But once when you are still in, you are not getting that help.

[01:10:07]>> Right. So you are basically living outside the society.

[01:10:12]>> That's right.

[01:10:12]>> So you don't see a way out in in in that respect.

[01:10:18]>> No, not at all. In fact, and it gets really gross because because it's a closed ecosystem, so to speak, right, of of everybody has to kind of connect with other Scientologists, preferably uh if you know, if you can, you know, do anything. Even if you're in this space where you're going to go get a job consultation or something, you're going to get it from some other desperate Scientologist who's selling his services or her services as a job consultant or job coach and they're going to try to charge you as much as they can cuz they're trying to get their, you know, nut for their bridge so they can get up, you know, go over to Tampa and do some services >> and all of this thing about exchange. It gets to the point that you are always out of exchange with people. There is no there's no real you know when I left finally Scientology and start to you know work with re you know with people out there you know outside the the the what a surprise to just feel and see that people just can do something for you because they want to help you.

[01:11:25]>> Right.

[01:11:26]>> Exactly.

[01:11:27]>> That's it.

[01:11:28]>> Yeah. Isn't it crazy how in Scientology >> it is like charity is somehow a bad word? It's like this. It's like this.

[01:11:36]It's like out ethics >> to >> It is a bad word.

[01:11:39]>> Yeah.

[01:11:40]>> Imagine when you're going through struggles and all of that stuff in a in a world that has no charity.

[01:11:45]>> Exactly.

[01:11:46]>> That has no help. That has no sympathy.

[01:11:49]That has no empathy.

[01:11:51]>> Exactly.

[01:11:52]>> Because you should make it go right.

[01:11:55]>> And >> and that's the word. That's the world that you live is is is a very sad word when I just got to know really when I arrived finally to the United States of America where and then started to find people. I remember crying my ass out on one of my first staff meetings in um where I work now because of it was kind of like what they were talking about is just on helping others and kindness and empathy and my eyes started to just like crying >> because it's like I haven't heard that ever.

[01:12:35]>> Yeah.

[01:12:35]>> That I am worth it to be helped.

[01:12:40]Because the help that Scientology talks about is not that kind of helped is you pay me and you do this services and you better do all right and that's how we are helping you.

[01:12:51]>> That's right.

[01:12:53]But actually having empathy and sitting with you and saying I'm with you is not part of that culture. And it's so to me it was like when I realized that that actually existed it was shocking.

[01:13:10]>> Yeah. Exactly. This is Let me just say this and then we're going to go ahead and wrap up tonight. Okay. Thank you, Natalya, FOR ALL THAT YOU >> MUCH FURTHER THAN >> NO, IT'S NO, I wanted to go in on this and it just got deeper and deeper and it's all good. It's all good. I am very happy with this. Um because this thing right here that you just talked about is my if I if I were ever going to really make an argument as to why it is that Scientology is not really a religion.

[01:13:47]It would not be or have anything to do with Zenu. My argument would have to do with what you just said. This is an institution, a business operation that pretends to be a religion and it does not offer any assistance, support, charity, kindness, compassion, suker, whatever word you want to throw there.

[01:14:10]The Church of Scientology will not do that because it just doesn't know how.

[01:14:15]And something that I said um is a long time ago that I think um that this highlights, right, is when help in Scientology happens, it happens despite Scientology, not because of it.

[01:14:31]>> That's correct.

[01:14:32]>> Right.

[01:14:32]>> Because they're still humans, right? And it and people will do those things.

[01:14:39]That's right. But it's not because it's it's encouraged or or it is taught or it is Yeah. It's not. I remember, you know, having the understanding of the word sympathy as a bad thing to do for people.

[01:14:59]>> That's right.

[01:15:00]>> It's actually defined as something bad.

[01:15:02]I don't know if you remember the the dictionary.

[01:15:04]>> Mhm.

[01:15:05]>> The Scientology dictionary.

[01:15:06]>> I remember it well.

[01:15:08]>> Yeah. Oh yeah, because he says if you can't do anything else for somebody, I guess you could sympathize with them.

[01:15:14]>> Yeah, it's a bad word.

[01:15:16]>> Yeah, >> it's it's having sympathy is a bad word.

[01:15:18]And empathy, I don't remember even seeing that ever.

[01:15:22]>> It was not a word that was generally in my vocabulary till after I left.

[01:15:26]>> It's not used anywhere.

[01:15:28]>> No.

[01:15:28]>> And when you are talking about helping human beings, the most important thing is empathy.

[01:15:33]>> Exactly.

[01:15:35]>> And that doesn't exist.

[01:15:37]All right, Natalya, thank you very much for sharing tonight with all of this. I really appreciate you taking the time to um to to unload here and talk about your experiences. And there are so many and this is just there like all almost because there's things we haven't even gotten to yet, folks, that that I know we're coming up to, but it's it there are so many things in her experience that check all the Scientology boxes.

[01:16:02]And that's what's kind of uh fun for me walking through all of this with her is is so many bells are getting rung that that I haven't thought about in a long time, right? And like when we talked about the whole wise thing that, you know, I I I was like, "Oh, I got a whole paper I got to write on this now." And there's a whole other thing we're going to get to on that uh probably next time.

[01:16:23]So, um, folks out there, as always, thank you very much for your support, viewership, and, um, of course, you know, if you want to throw some love my way to help keep the lights on here, I would very, very much appreciate that.

[01:16:35]And, uh, on and there's links to how to do all of that in the description section below, as well as links on how to contact me, ask me questions, uh, support the channel, go to my website.

[01:16:46]It's all down there in the description section on YouTube. All right, guys. I will see you guys next week. Bye-bye.