Brain rot as a result of over-reliance on screens | Extra Minutes

Añadido: 2026-05-10

[00:00:07]Hello and welcome to Extra Minutes, the 60 Minutes podcast. I'm Adam Hegarty, joined by producer Laura Sparks. Laura, how are you? I'm I'm good. I'm good. The irony of my phone recording how long we're taking for this podcast just dawned on me. But like everything we do together, I first learned about it, in this case digital dementia, through you. Through me. Well, I I Well, I looked on it I found a newspaper article. Uh just a small one and it was page three, but it was small.

[00:00:34]And I remember reading it thinking, "Oh, this this can't be right.

[00:00:36]>> [laughter] >> This can't be right." Um and so I found uh but you know, there was an Australian neuroscientist um quoted in the story.

[00:00:44]So I I found Mark, found his number, and had a long long conversation with him.

[00:00:49]And when he st- started talking about the scans that he had, and I just started thinking about the story, and I thought this could be the beginning of a great story. Um and but even before I spoke to Mark, of course you see a story in the paper and you go, "Oh, that's interesting. I might just see what's around." So I Googled it. Couldn't find anything.

[00:01:09]And uh all I could find was a German neuroscientist about a decade ago, um Manfred [snorts] Spitzer, who coined the term digital dementia. So I rang him. We had a conversation one night from He was in Germany somewhere. And uh yeah, he he'd picked it 10 years ago. He said, "I knew about this, but no one listened to me.

[00:01:30]Everyone said I was crazy."

[00:01:32]And I mean, even now, it's still on the edge, isn't it? Um I think within the community, within the neuroscientists, and certainly the pediatricians also feel the same way. But within the greater community, we're all just like, "What?" This brain scan is from a teenager that spends six to eight hours a day on devices. So the the holes, if you like, or the ridges that we actually see are are slightly wider in teenagers.

[00:01:57]And that's the the same sort of thing we see in early onset dementia. And you're seeing signs of dementia and Alzheimer's in teenagers. We're seeing changes in the brain which are very similar to changes that we see in early diagnosis of Alzheimer's or dementia.

[00:02:13]And and that increase in that younger group can only be really attributed to the devices. I don't know what else it could be. I I had my skepticism, as you naturally do when you look at any story.

[00:02:25]But as soon as you start seeing those scans, and you have people like Dr. Mark Williams, a neuroscientist and a German neuroscientist who you speak to, putting their names to it, and not just as a throwaway comment. Dr. Williams, he's invested much of his professional life now to this specifically. Yeah, I mean, he's traveled the world. He does now travel the world. Uh he is still at Macquarie University, but he largely travels around and speaks at schools internationally. I mean, he was supposed to go to the UAE in 3 weeks, but that's obviously not going to happen now. But you know, that's how sought after he is and recognized he is. So he you know, he went to Massachusetts uh MIT um you know, back when Facebook began. You know, this guy's been around for a long time. He knows his stuff. But I mean, I know cuz we were listening to interviews, weren't we? And um pennies were dropping, I think, between you, me, and the crew.

[00:03:15]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, absolutely. Um and just the idea that other countries have been seemingly so far ahead of this in a way. It feels like Australia's really only starting to learn about it now. And China's been onto this for 10 years. Germany clearly onto it for longer. It really does start to make me only thinking, "We really need to make a monumental big shift here, otherwise we could all be in a a lot of strife as we age."

[00:03:36]>> But what about you? I think probably you it really did hit you, didn't it?

[00:03:40]>> Absolutely, of course. I think the whole crew, in a way, didn't it? So obviously as a journo, you appreciate these the the old cliches.

[00:03:49]Stories stick with you and you with this you you really feel like you need to make a change. And for instance, what stuck with me was the idea that a huge reliance on Google Maps, Apple Maps, Waze, finder map apps, according to Dr. Williams, literally shrinks a part of your brain. Like he he measures that on scans. Even has a term for I'm not going to remember the term of the part of the brain that shrinks as a result. But one specifically for uh pathfinding, we don't use anymore, as he explains it, because we outsource what we'd normally using our brain for to our maps. And we're just following a dotted line, right? So now I'm really trying to not use Google Maps as much.

[00:04:34]It's hilarious and difficult. I found a point where I was driving from my house to uh a restaurant up the road. I think it was only about a 5-minute drive, and I reckon it took me about 20 minutes. I kid you not. A million wrong turns.

[00:04:47]That's the reliance we have on Google Maps. Genuinely. So you don't know how to get around without Google Maps.

[00:04:52]Genuinely. And I'm trying really hard now. It's fascinating cuz now, immediately after coming back from filming this story, I now have a better understanding about my suburb, the extended suburb, even going for a walk and going, "Oh, yeah, if I turn down that road, I'm going to end up there and back there." And it was a really revealing moment, quite a guilty one for me where I went, "Wow, for years and years now, I've always relied on that and clearly not used my brain as it's designed for."

[00:05:22]And I think um one of the the cameraman, what didn't he buy a device after listening to I mean, and and we love our cameraman, but sometimes they're not always listening to the interviews.

[00:05:32][laughter] But this one obviously was, Kate.

[00:05:35]Because what did he do? Oh, Kate, bless him. So he was explaining it to me, and it was only after I want to say we're in New York, and I think it was after maybe the first or maybe the second interview.

[00:05:46]So he was hot on it straight away. This is how convincing this topic is and how scary it is.

[00:05:52]He went online, turned to me like a few hours later, he goes, "Oh, I've just gone online in America, mind you, ordered something to go back to his house when we got home back to Australia. It's like a little Bluetooth device that you can put on a wall or at home, and you just get your phone, and beforehand, in the app that's connected to this device, you select which apps you want it to disable. So he is going to then scan his phone when he leaves for the day and make sure it disables things like social media, Instagram, Facebook, X, TikTok, whatever it is. So then he physically can't use it during the day. Then he goes back, he just scans it again, and then you can use it when you get home. And that's going to be his way.

[00:06:31]We'll check up on him. He might not have actually gone through with it.

[00:06:34]But his way of limiting his use. And how fascinating, too, that we need to force ourselves and need help to stop ourselves using it. Well, you know and I know, I'll go to pick the phone up at work or at home to do something, generally probably work related or to send a text. Next thing, I'm on Instagram.

[00:06:51]>> [laughter] >> And I'm scrolling. And then next thing I look up and I'm like, "Oh my god, it's half an hour's gone or an hour's gone or whatever."

[00:06:59]That's something I'm thinking of, too, Laura.

[00:07:01]One one young girl we spoke to over there has gone analog in a lot of ways, and one of them was an old-school alarm clock next to the bed. I'm just old enough to remember having one. And that's so I haven't done it yet, to be honest. But I thought that might be something worthwhile doing as well, because you're right, I have the alarm on my phone. So every morning, and you realize it after you're doing this story, every morning, the first thing I do is pick up my phone to turn the alarm off. And then often when you do that, you go, "Oh, yeah, I'll see you waking up. Oh, I'll just check Instagram. Oh, yeah, no worries." And then suddenly an hour's gone, and I'm still in bed. And you're starting your day with that dopamine hit. Then you're chasing that dopamine hit for the rest of the day.

[00:07:40]So hopefully maybe an alarm clock will stop me doing that. We'll see.

[00:07:42][laughter] Check on me to see if I go through with it. That could be your birthday present.

[00:07:46]Oh, thank [laughter] you. That'd be nice. But probably would they go cheap now? Would they be really expensive cuz they're a collectible? I don't know. I don't know.

[00:07:52]>> [laughter] >> I'm not sure. It's so funny. But really it's being inspired by an 18-year-old was a really fascinating thing for me as well.

[00:08:01]Cuz young Lucy Jackson in the States, she's gone She's done away with her smartphone, gone to a flip phone. So all she has is texts and calls.

[00:08:09]And no Google Maps. So I went out with her and went for a walk around, and that really won me over. It's cold, though.

[00:08:15]Yes. Well, that that actually really The whole shoot in New York was freezing. We were we were there during like just after a blizzard, not the latest one, but previous one. And so the shoot had to sort of revolve around the warmest part of the day, which by the way, was what? Zero? I think we'd get excited if it was zero or one. I remember walking out of our studio one day and was like, "Oh, it's 1°! It's 1:00 and it's 1°!" And so we were trying to film when it was the warmest part of the day. On that day, and we had to do it that day cuz Lucy was at university Monday to Friday. So we shot with her on a Saturday. On that day, it was something like minus I think it was minus somewhere between minus 14 and 17, truly. And then but then I had the wind chill underneath. It felt [snorts] like minus 26. It was freezing.

[00:09:03]Yeah, and no sun.

[00:09:06]Yeah. We're not covered, but surrounded by ice which hadn't melted after the snowstorm 2 weeks earlier. That's how cold it was. Yeah, it was icy. And um And we had the hairbrained idea to try and get around New York City without Google Maps. Now we got it right. Are you sure?

[00:09:20]95.

[00:09:21]>> Tell me you're sure. I'm pretty sure.

[00:09:22]I'm not sure I'm not to make us too cold. Okay.

[00:09:26]There's no question. It takes longer to get anywhere.

[00:09:29]Lucy, street map.

[00:09:31]Let's check. We We heading the right way? Okay, yeah. We just passed Grand Ave, which means oh Oh, what?

[00:09:43]One second. A more sunny day, uh and a bit more of a warmer day. And we met up with a few people, uh young people over there trying to you know, convince people to get off their phones. Young Nick was another one, wasn't he? And he he was fascinating to chat to. This is someone who uh got his first phone, I think we're saying the story about 11.

[00:10:02]And then now has just had made this huge shift away to trying to convince everyone to get off it. And the reason I bring that up is it's all well and good to talk about how beneficial it can be to get off these things and not use them as much.

[00:10:14]It's easier said than done. Raise your hand if you think that you're on your phone too much. Trying to convert everyone. It's not enough to just be like put your phone down or like delete social media. Give up their phones. When I had my pre-chat with him, actually he was here in December last year for the social media band. So we actually spoke when he was in Sydney. And um and he was telling me, I don't think we sort of got this we didn't go this far with him in the actual story, but he was telling me that he was a very shy person. And you know, he said I'd always have my my head in my phone. He said I couldn't strike up a conversation. So when he did give up his phone 3 years ago in his early 20s, he made himself speak to people, which he said was terrifying. And you can still see it in in that vision that we shot of him. He's not doing it naturally. He's not a natural speaker. And we do this for a living. It's not easy just approaching strangers on the street and try to convince them or talk to them about anything. Yeah. Yeah, no, he struggled doing it. And I remember getting that group of boys. I said, "Come over here."

[00:11:19]>> [laughter] >> Cuz cuz Nick wouldn't go to them and I said, "Come over here." And then then then that was a really lovely scene cuz Nick asked them, "How many of you want to give up your phone?" Or something like that. And they all put their hand up. I'm thinking, "Yeah, you're liars."

[00:11:31]Absolutely [laughter] not. They walked away and they were all on their phones on TikTok and Instagram and the like.

[00:11:35]But Nick's funny on that point, isn't he? He was saying how he convinced all his friends at the time, "Oh, Instagram, this is amazing. I've got to get on it."

[00:11:43]But he's one of the few now making this shift. And that's one of the things that I take away from being over there. I I do get the sense that the US is a bit further along with this than we are. I I can't really put my finger on why, to be honest, cuz the research is here and obviously Dr. Mark Williams is Australian. But I was really interested in the fact that the push isn't from you know, people of a neuroscientist's age, as an example. It's kids.

[00:12:10]We spoke to teenagers and young adults, maybe you know, the oldest would have been about late 20s, really. I found that really interesting that there's a push from a young generation. Welcome.

[00:12:23]Give yourselves a little round of applause for coming. Yes.

[00:12:27]Led by Dan Fox, they're all about to shock horror, switch their phones off for a couple of hours.

[00:12:34]>> We'll all take out our phones. The challenge for some was even knowing how to do that. Wait, what buttons do you have? I've got to get them to turn off.

[00:12:42]The volume up, volume down, hold the power button. Okay, everyone ready? 3 2 [music] 1, turn it off.

[00:12:51]Yeah, well they've grown up with the phones. They don't know any different.

[00:12:54]>> it. Yeah, and I mean I think also as Mark says that they're the they're the real problematic group because they don't know anything else. So whilst you and I grew up without laptops and I think you said you got your first phone at what? Yeah, all this is Well, I was the Nokia 3310, 5110, 3310.

[00:13:15]I don't know if I've got those numbers right.

[00:13:17]>> were you then? Uh that would have been in high school. I got my first phone, but that was the old Nokia days where it was just a table like the free phones, right?

[00:13:27]So to your point, we're lucky because we remember a time. Some others don't.

[00:13:34]>> Well, we've also exercised our brains.

[00:13:37]So our brains know how to get from point A to point B without Google Maps. Our brains know that it's important to socialize. We're not Well, I I mean I'm 54, so I didn't get my first phone until I was 26. And that again with the Nokia.

[00:13:53]No, I'm not saying that, but [laughter] what I'm saying is that our brains have learned through all that time how to socialize, how to interact, how to get around. But that, you know, teenagers through to people in their 20s, they have never had to do that.

[00:14:09]They have always had Google Maps. They don't have to socialize. They can do Snapchat, you know? And so they've they've their brains haven't developed and that is what concerns the neuroscientists the most because they don't know what that means. It's too early to tell whether or not you can actually make your brain develop after the fact or the fact that it net these things never developed in these kids, they're now grown, can they is the brain plastic enough, you know, that neuroplasticity that we we hear about, will they be able to turn things around by going off their phones? If they never built that muscle to begin with. Yeah, but I mean the what people we spoke to say they feel better off their phones, literally. So let's hope. Yeah, we'll give it a go as well as we can. Tough being Gen Z, we need our phone a lot. [laughter] I am thinking about giving up social media. Oh, I wish I could. I can't. I'm too far gone for that. I've got a buddy back home back home in Melbourne, we're in Sydney at the minute. But um he's never had social media and I just look at him angry because I'm so jealous.

[00:15:14]Once you start, you can't leave.

[00:15:16]>> It's never too late.

[00:15:17]>> [laughter] >> Exactly. A good positive to end this podcast on, the elasticity of the brain.

[00:15:23]Fingers crossed cuz we like to do things everything, this story included, on a positive.

[00:15:28]The neuroscientists do say, you mentioned it just earlier that you should be able to turn this around because the brain's a muscle, but there's serious concern out there and it's probably something we should all think about.

[00:15:40]>> Well, they say, "Where's my phone?"

[00:15:43]It's good that you don't know. Here's my phone. Put your phone down and interact.

[00:15:48]>> but then apparently it isn't supposed to be anywhere near you. Like cuz if it's there, you're thinking about it and the most important thing is to socialize.

[00:15:55]And that's the most unhealthy thing you can do for your brain. So more socializing, less scrolling, I think is the take home message.

[00:16:00]>> Exactly. Perfect. Thank you, Dr. >> [laughter] >> Dr. Yeah, exactly.

[00:16:06]Oh dear, we pretend we're experts sometimes, [laughter] don't we? But fascinating. No, but I mean it's terrifying and frightening and I think everyone that watches this will hopefully think about making a change.

[00:16:16]>> Absolutely. And to reiterate, very few times I do a story and I make profound life changes and I think I'll really try to after this one. So Laura, thank you.

[00:16:24]>> Thank you. Of course you can catch that story on our YouTube channel as well as 9 Now.