Diezani Can Still Be Tried In Nigerian Court - Ubani

[00:00:01][music] [music] [music] [music] >> Well, that was our correspondent um Juliana Juliana Olayinka. I prefer to say Diziani.

[00:00:35]>> [laughter] >> Who was discussing the Diziani matter, but that was our correspondent Juliana Olayinka right in front of the Southern Crown Court giving us a summary of what transpired in court today. The judge gave that verdict, but I'm sure that it would have hit the Nigerian um Nigerian political social economic socio-economic scene you know with mixed feelings. So, this morning we're going to be getting a judicial or let's say a legal perspective on this matter. Mr. Monday Ubani joins us now. He's a senior advocate of Nigeria.

[00:01:09]I mean, by extension it means he's a legal practitioner by all means. Thank you for >> promoting me to a judicial officer.

[00:01:15]>> He's a legal advocate. Let me quickly correct that. He's a legal legal opinion. The judicial The judiciary has finished his own opinion and they have vindicated her. She is free of all bribery charges brought against her on charges of embezzlement as well.

[00:01:31]>> That's correct.

[00:01:31]>> But given all that you know about this case and how you know our system works here in Nigeria and all that was brought be you know before their lord before his lordship in the Southern Crown Court which was also out in the public space.

[00:01:46]Do you really believe that this is over for the former minister?

[00:01:53]>> Thank you for having me. I I don't think it's over.

[00:01:56]It is not a judicial declaration of uh innocence in other crimes.

[00:02:03]What she was charged uh in K is actually for bribery.

[00:02:08]Now, the onus of prosecution in criminal proceeding lies on the prosecution.

[00:02:16]And the standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt. I know they have a jury system.

[00:02:23]Now, the allegation against uh Diezani in UK uh court, Crown Court, is that she was given luxury gifts, was living a lifestyle, you know, of, you know, superstars, you know, the those in the music industry.

[00:02:42]She They accommodation, you know, when she's coming in private jets.

[00:02:46]And then, their own allegation is that those were funded by contractors in the oil and gas industry in Nigeria who received maybe juicy contracts.

[00:02:59]So, when you are alleging bribery, you are linking that bribery to the fact that those who were giving her that luxury lifestyle were getting juicy contracts in Nigeria in the oil and gas industry.

[00:03:13]So, you have proved bribery.

[00:03:15]But, you have not been able to link that lifestyle to contracts they have actually been given or secured in the oil and gas industry which she as a result of that influence her to.

[00:03:27]And so, her own defense, of course, is a rebuttable defense I mean, I cry allegation.

[00:03:32]When you allege somebody has received bribe, you must link it to the official function of that officer in in in the place where she was working.

[00:03:42]And so, her own defense was I never awarded any contract directly by myself to these people. There are There is a structure in place how they got contract. And they found out that that would that was no link whatsoever with the lifestyle these contractors were giving her >> [snorts] >> to the contract that she had given them, allegedly given them in Nigeria.

[00:04:03]And so in that, you have raised out in the mind of the jury because they the judge will summarize these facts and then the legal position and then ask them to go and reach conclusion. And these are men and women [snorts] in juris juris system that are made up from various professions.

[00:04:20]So they are not lawyers, you know, some may be lawyers, but the point is that they are they are looking at issues now from the presentation, from the evidence.

[00:04:29]So when they couldn't found any link to those luxury lifestyle that those guys were giving her to any official position, I mean, I think she that they have given her here in Nigeria.

[00:04:40]They they doubt doubt was resolved in her favor.

[00:04:43]The principle of criminal prosecution and the sentencing and all that, it is better for nine accused person to go scot-free than for one innocent person to be convicted wrongly. So anytime in criminal prosecution, the prosecution fails to really prove all the ingredients of offense, one is issue of mens rea, one the second is issue of actus reus. There must be the act, there must be the intention. So if you are not able to establish intention, then there's going to be a problem. So when they found that particular gap, they resolved that doubt in her favor. That is actually what happened in the British court.

[00:05:25]>> Yeah, but clearly that doubt has not been resolved in the minds of the public.

[00:05:30]>> Yes.

[00:05:31]>> The world is >> No, no, no, we [laughter] need to we need to resolve it. We resolve it this morning.

[00:05:35]>> Not in my mind. You cannot read my mind, unfortunately. But I mean, given all that because let's put it out there that the prosecution listed all of this alleged offenses and of course a lot of people would have been wondering this lifestyle by what was it funded is it appropriate for a public official you know serving in the government to live in this manner is it okay for for them to do so so how do you think that that would eventually be resolved if it ever can >> No the point is that for the fact that she has been declared innocent acquitted in English court does not mean that she can not be tried even on the same facts here because they defend sovereign jurisdiction law are independent that that must be made very clear now if she is being tried here the only thing is that that particular acquittal will only be persuasive which only probably strengthen her case but it does not in any way mean complete innocence you have to go through the entire process of proving again beyond reasonable doubt before the judges that are in Nigeria that is what supposed to be done because there are other charges of money laundering abuse of office you know breach of public trust there are so many other decent but what was tried in England is important we make this very clear is bribery >> Mhm >> so bribery >> so let let's talk about the case in in Nigeria in fact the EFCC they have pending five counts criminal charge against and all businessman Jide so that's a different thing all together so the EFCC had previously they got this arrest warrant and started the extradition process at least that's what I kind of remember from that but following this acquittal there's an EFCC official who's confirming that the case has not been abandoned and they're still seeking to have her face trial in Nigerian court how do you think that's going to work out do you think the extradition is going to happen is she going to be tried for these cases are we going to watch madam Diezani Alison-Madueke uh through our court system here. And then and and back to you know, just trying to warm up what we were talking about, the visual of the kind of life that she was living here. I remember when they start showing those jewelry, bustiers that were golden and and things like that. So, that those memories stick to the Nigerian psyche.

[00:08:00]So, would it be would it be wonderful for many Nigerians really great to have a come back and face the law here for even if it's just for the perception that Nigerian people have of her.

[00:08:11]>> Intelligent question. It's important she also comes uh to the country, Nigeria, and clear herself through our own legal system. Very, very important.

[00:08:22]Because as I said earlier, the only acquittal she secured in England is about bribery.

[00:08:29]And they could not in any way tie that bribery to certain contracts that were given to those who were sponsoring her. Remember that I understand that the president, the former president Jonathan, also gave evidence in our favor saying that people in public service, you know, receive such gifts, you know, from you know, individuals and not necessarily for corrupt maybe to be to have influence.

[00:08:55]You know, to be close to somebody who is controlling the industry. So, that that was the evidence. It's a It's a rebuttable evidence. I mean, when somebody makes an allegation, you have you know, the onus now shifts in in criminal allegation of bribery.

[00:09:10]That oh, you have received bribe. Why try? Even in our Nigerian ICPC and EFCC, at least there gratification is a crime.

[00:09:17]>> Yeah.

[00:09:17]>> But the point is that immediately that particular act is proved that you have received gratification, the onus now shifts to you, the defense.

[00:09:26]Say that this has nothing to do with my official position, never influenced any of my decisions that I made in favor of any of those who have given me the money. So, this these things are very important. So, if she comes back to Nigeria, there is allegation of abuse of office.

[00:09:42]There is allegation of money laundering.

[00:09:43]There are so many other allegations against her. So, he goes through the crucible of our judicial system. And evidence must be very strong.

[00:09:50]>> It's not double jeopardy, though.

[00:09:51]>> No.

[00:09:52]>> No, it's not cuz it's not the same case.

[00:09:53]>> It's not even if it's the same case because we have we are not sharing the same jurisdiction. It's important we mention this.

[00:09:58]>> Yeah.

[00:09:59]>> When you say you cannot be tried again, double jeopardy, I think it is a Latin word, autrefois acquit.

[00:10:05]It is only within the competent jurisdiction of the same sovereign state. Not when it is in another country.

[00:10:13]Right? Because they are different countries entirely and different legal system. So, she can be tried here in Nigeria even on the same fact. But, the point is >> On on the same fact, although some people describe that as witch hunting.

[00:10:25]>> No, no. So, so, the point is this.

[00:10:27]The government now will now choose the one they can concentrate upon.

[00:10:31]Because it is the same witnesses you may likely bring in because EFCC had assisted you, remember, to UK government in order to prosecute her. So, the same documentary evidence you are going to present. If those documentary evidence and those witnesses could not, you know, help prosecution in England to convict her, so, you choose your battle. Will I still want to rely on those witnesses? Will I still want to rely on those documents in order to prove the same offense here in Nigeria? So, you choose your battle.

[00:11:02]Rely on those offenses you think you have very strong evidence.

[00:11:07]From beginning to the end of the secure conviction because it's not about, you know, trial. It's a question of In trying an offense, what is the strategy of the prosecution? What do you want to achieve in this? Is it to make name that you have taken her to court or to secure conviction?

[00:11:23]Or it to probably please the public, oh, you have put this person on trial. So, your intention is to convict. So, the issue of possible evidence, the strength of evidence is very key Because the court will look at it.

[00:11:35]You know, from the point of view of reasonable beyond doubt.

[00:11:40]In criminal prosecution, as I said it earlier, the principle is it is better for nine persons who are really guilty, let them go scot-free than for one innocent person. So, it is always important that you don't create any gap in in prosecuting a criminal offense. If you any gap is raised and seen, it is always resolved in favor of the accused person. That is what goes on. So, I'm saying that here is now we now choose their battle.

[00:12:01]Which of the charges do we think we have a strong evidence in order to secure conviction? So, they go for it. Not that you charge 20 charges and all and don't secure conviction in one.

[00:12:11]>> Mhm.

[00:12:12]Let me quickly, you know, because I was about to take you up on this issue of the judiciary ahead of the 2027 elections.

[00:12:21]So, let's also switch gears there. But, you know, one thing was coming to my head with regards to this Ali Maru Kyari case which has now flown out of my head.

[00:12:29]So, let us go to the judiciary [laughter] ahead of the 2027 elections.

[00:12:35]During the week, we saw the court of appeal deliver a very scathing verdict on the justice delivered by Beg pardon, verdict delivered by Justice Peter Lifu of the Federal High Court, you know, saying that he did not respect judicial hierarchy. He is unfit for the bench.

[00:12:54]You know, using very strong words, so to speak, in describing what he determined as very grave disrespect for judicial hierarchy. I don't know and this on this party deregistration matter, which some lawyers, senior advocates like yourself, have justified that Justice Peter Lifu's judgment was sound and I think it's important to say so. No, not you.

[00:13:16]I said senior advocates like yourself.

[00:13:18]Before the supreme Beg pardon, before the court of appeal reached that verdict, about two senior lawyers had come out to say that that judgement delivered by Justice Peter Lifu was sound in itself especially with the deregistration of political parties.

[00:13:33]That was the bone of contention. Now, but the hierarchy of uh judges at the back back back courts was not taken into account by these lawyers which was basically where the court of appeal, you know, had taken an issue.

[00:13:48]Um What you see cuz Justice Peter Lifu delivered this judgement on one day and about two days in less than 48 hours or about 48 hours, the court of appeal had delivered you know, its verdict, you know, blaming the >> saying execution. It It divided the >> Yeah, staying execution of that verdict.

[00:14:06]Yeah, so I'm just wondering uh which was very timely, you know, given what it is. So, would you say that the Nigerian judiciary is really ready for these elections as we go, you know, as we get get into the polls for 2027?

[00:14:21]>> Well, I'm not from the judicial sector, but I'm a lawyer. I think they are.

[00:14:25]They have a very important role to play in our uh electoral system because they they determine even uh primary issues, uh leadership issues of political parties, and even when the election is over has taken place.

[00:14:42]People will run to court to say the other person did not win the election and all that. So, it is still the same court that will do all that.

[00:14:47]So, the corrective system is there.

[00:14:49]Which is what happened in this particular case you mentioned. If there is any wrong decision or anything that is taken at the court below that is actually wrong, the court of appeal comes in, you know, in order to correct it or possibly the Supreme Court finally. And so, in Justice Lifu's matter, we've discussed it, we've written about it.

[00:15:07]The What I saw in that case is that it is only INEC that the law gives power to deregister.

[00:15:18]INEC shall have power.

[00:15:20]When you are given that power, it is an exclusive power that no other arms of government or no other institution should interfere in terms of if somebody saying oh he INEC refuses to perform the official function. Yes, you go to court, you need a mandamus. The court will now order INEC to perform that official but not that the court will substitute his own opinion.

[00:15:39]So, the moment the court says, "I'm ordering you and I'm also asking you to not to receive candidates or some ordering you not to participate in election." It doesn't mean that the court is is the one doing the duty that's supposed to be done by INEC.

[00:15:52]>> has usurped that role?

[00:15:54]>> No, because INEC said, "We have evaluated." Because that particular power given to them give them give them power to do administrative evaluation. After they have written to the political parties and say, "You did not comply with this." Political parties will reply. INEC will look at their reply and their response and say evaluate. Are they in breach of section 225A?

[00:16:13]If they're not in breach, they file a counter affidavit in that case and say they were not in breach.

[00:16:18]And they are the one that's supposed to do that responsibility of evaluation and giving a report. And the court said, "No, that in his own finding he found out that they are in breach." That cannot be the duty of the court. And we've said that much. So, that should be determined >> I I and I just remembered the question I was going to ask you because, you know, see the verdict which the UK Crown Court reached in this matter.

[00:16:39]>> Yes.

[00:16:40]>> It's a very interesting one um in the sense that you have justified how they got to that verdict that, you know, it's better for nine people to >> Yeah.

[00:16:50]>> walk scot-free than one innocent person uh taken you know, taken prisoner as the case might be. I sometimes wonder if that decision had been taken in a Nigerian court and the perception that would have come out of it. And this is the same court cuz it would appear that at every turn the Nigerian judiciary is always on trial. Would you say that our people are enlightened enough as to the workings of a court and how the judicial process works given what has now come and I'm trying to see if I can relate it to that. Given what has now come as judgement from the UK Crown Court.

[00:17:26]>> You'll make heaven for us in this question. Let me tell you this.

[00:17:31]A lot of people have been actually granted I mean acquitted in Nigeria.

[00:17:35]Politicians.

[00:17:37]And then the the thinking of Nigerians you know towards such cases is that they have been have been the judicial system has been compromised.

[00:17:45]And some of us have undertaken this responsibility of advocacy and teaching and telling persons that look look look how the law operates. The law does not operate on sentiment. It does not operate on the newspaper report.

[00:17:59]The man that is sitting there as a judge is is really really ignorant of all those. It is on the facts.

[00:18:06]What you are presenting as evidence that he's going to look at in especially in criminal issues in criminal matters. I've told you the principle.

[00:18:15]So if any person is charged and the prosecutor fails to really adduce strong evidence that links that crime to that person to that person it's going to be difficult. And it's difficult to convict public officers because there is a structure of how contracts are awarded. It passes through process.

[00:18:37]And most of these people you charge to court are not the ones that sign their signatures are not on the papers.

[00:18:43]And then you are charging them in order to convict them. And you cannot be able to link any of those monies into their account the money enter into the account. Most times those monies you know the Iniquitous Debate says that since men have learned to you know shoot without missing. You know these politicians they put they build a structure.

[00:19:02]And they are careful not to sign anything.

[00:19:04]Most of these politicians you know you think they're corrupt or not. They're careful not to paint their signature in anything.

[00:19:10]So it requires a of intricate understanding of how the system works in order to get that person whom you have charged, you know, to be liable criminally in Nigeria.

[00:19:22]And so, when the judges look at these facts you have presented and they don't they don't they don't tell you doesn't there's a gap it doesn't link to that individual and they say the man is not guilty.

[00:19:31]And the next issue is that oh, he's he's uh he has compromised. He has taken money. What do you expect? In fact, already accusing the British court of taking money.

[00:19:39]Oh, you know that they love money. That they may have been bribed. But, can you all those jury, those men of Listen, they don't they look at facts. They they are not in they are ignorant of whatever you've written in your papers and all that. They are looking at what you have presented.

[00:19:52]You said he took bribe.

[00:19:55]Those bribes were given because of the juicy contract you've gotten and it was this woman that is there to give those contracts. They trust it. They could not link it.

[00:20:05]So, gap. They resolve it in her favor.

[00:20:07]So, what I'm saying is that it's important that in doing crossing to court over criminal matters, you know, involving politicians, you know, you need to be very very methodological, strategic, and then the complex economic structure they put in place, you must pierce it and be able to link crime to that. If you don't link them, there is no judge that will say that based on sentiment I say let me convict this man because the people public opinion is in favor of conviction. It doesn't happen that way.

[00:20:33]>> Oh, Mr. Monday Ubani, I believe that this matter will as because we understand that Nigeria still is interested in the matter. So, we'll see how that eventually proceeds here in Nigeria. But, we have to thank you very much for coming on Sunrise Daily this morning and shedding giving a perspective on the issue. Thank you. Mr. Monday Ubani is a senior advocate of Nigeria.