Exploring the Lord of the Rings, Session 373

Added: 2026-05-09

[00:00:25]Good evening everybody. Welcome back to exploring the Lord of the Rings. This is session number 373 and today having stopped by the mirror on the way out. Um it is time to turn cautiously towards Lothal Lauran as uh we will see Aragorn has already had his first big moment of leadership. um the little spontaneous funeral that he did, the the in the book excellently handled getting everybody moving again after their time of weeping and um uh and now we will see him actually getting them moving towards their destination. Um but um before we get started, just a couple quick notes on upcoming things, three things I wanted to draw your attention to real quick. Um all of them in our events calendar. So first of all, the last of the 2026 events has been officially posted. Middlemoot 2026 is the last of our moots that had not been the registration had not been opened yet. It is now we have everything all the way through to Mottown moot in December. Um yeah, middle is the last ironically but but there we are. Um so so yes, Middlemoot in Kansas City this year. Um uh excited to get back to Middlemoot uh back to Kansas City again this year and we're gonna be so we have all of them coming up. We have Mountain Moot this very weekend in just a couple days in Denver which hopefully will not be snowed out.

[00:02:14]Um but uh but yes, there's so Mountainmoot this coming weekend and then Willamoot in Belgium in a couple weeks. Uh, and then we have, uh, after that comes My Mithmoot. They're out of order because Mythmoot is at the top because it's our biggest moot. Um, Mythmoot 13 in Leburg, Virginia.

[00:02:34]Mythmoot is the second thing that I wanted to just focus on for a moment.

[00:02:38]Um, if you haven't ever been to Mythmoot, you really, really should come. Mythmoot is such I just can't even tell you what a wonderful time My MMO is. Um, Mythmoot is more than just a conference. It is a it is a delightful retreat from the world in the company of some wonderful folks who share all of your interests and just a wonderful time of conversation, of quiet, of escape from the rest of the world as we go into our delightful concrete bunker and its little yard space. Uh, you know, it's it's its lawns in the middle with our fire pits and things. Um, and we get to have spend all day watching presentations, having discussions, doing really fun things together, and then come together in the evening and spend some time around the fire pits and uh just for casual conversation and fun and usually beverages um which are uh which are which are often supplied by uh by many guests. Um and um anyway, mythmood is just such a wonderful time. Just one other thing that I would emphasize um one of my fa personal favorite things about Mythmoot is food. Whenever I go to another conference, um you know, if I go to like a multi-day conference, somebody else's multi-day conference, I'm they're always food is always awkward. Like either you're having to like quick, we have like an hour before the next session. let's like dash across the street and try to find some food and bring it back or something like that.

[00:04:18]Sometimes, you know, I I' I've gone without food. I mean, I I have several um Sarah Brown and I share a fun memory of uh one of the the the second conference she and I ever spent together. Um which was just marked by famine. Like she she and I have such uh such strong memories of of starving the whole time together because there was no food. And um uh at Mythmoot the food is is abundant and uh and totally included in the cost of your registration. So everybody who registers for Mythmood, your registration includes three like full buffet meals a day.

[00:05:04]Plus, there's like snacks, like hot and cold snacks being put out outside the conference uh the conference rooms all day long. Um, it's phenomenal. So, you get really good food abundantly served to you and it's all totally included.

[00:05:20]So, when you you pay for the your registration and you pay for your lodging, like that's that's the whole cost of the whole time. All of your food is included and it's uh it's pretty awesome. Um, so, so Mythmoot, just really encourage you to look into that. We're coming up now on Mythmoot, starting to get excited, gearing up for Mythmoot. Um, the last thing I did want to mention, uh, Adam has, uh, already alluded to it. We're doing a really fun thing at Mountain Moot this year, um, which is we're going to play, this is an idea that kind of grew at an earlier moot and we're putting it into practice this time.

[00:06:00]We're going to be playing a big game of what if during the moot. Um uh Adam has created this spinning wheel um of which has 200 different what if questions like Tolken what if questions uh to land that you that the spinner can land on. So we're just going to spin the wheel and we're going to discuss whatever question comes up. Uh and it's going to be really really fun. These are what if questions such as like what if Saraman had gotten his hands on the ring of power, right?

[00:06:34]How would that have like what would have happened then, do we think? Um anyway, it's going to be uh it's going to be great fun. So, I'm um uh really really looking forward to a a fun day of creative uh uh talking discussion this weekend in Denver.

[00:06:55]Um, all right.

[00:06:57]Let us get back to the text here. Um, oh, Dizzy was asking, um, are we likely to have a Japan moot one day? You know, Dizzy, we were this close. We had that was the everybody like I feel like every organization has a big like um here's here's the thing that we lost because of COVID or here's like the thing that was canceled because of COVID. That was that's mine. Um, we had a Japan moot planned and scheduled for September of 2020. Um, and we had to cancel it because of COVID and we've never been able to put it back together again. Um, so um, so yeah, hopefully I I hope that someday we will be able to execute that.

[00:07:44]Um, we'll see. That's a that's a that's a future consideration.

[00:07:50]But um but maybe who knows maybe it'll happen. Um yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, I'm not sure where it would fit on the calendar either, Adam. It's calendar's getting a bit full. I'm not sure we can do many more moots than we've done this year. Uh but um yeah, we'll we'll see. All right.

[00:08:12]Anyway, let's get back to the text here.

[00:08:14]Okay. The road now turned south and went quickly downwards, running out from between the arms of the dale. Someway below the mirror they came on a deep well of water, clear as crystal, from which a fresh fell over a stone lip and ran glistening and gurgling down a steep rocky channel.

[00:08:32]Here is the spring from which the silver load rises, said Gimley. Do not drink of it. It is icy cold.

[00:08:39]Soon it becomes a swift river, and it gathers water from many other mountain streams, said Aragorn. Our road leads beside it for many miles, for I shall take you by the road that Gandalf chose, and first I hope to come to the woods where the silver load runs into the great river, out yonder." They looked as he pointed, and before them they could see the stream leaping down to the trough of the valley, and then running on and away into the lower lands until it was lost in a golden haze.

[00:09:08]Um, okay. Okay. Um yes. Yes. Um there is a we do get a whole bunch of aliteration here, don't we? Um glistening and gurgling certainly jumped out at me. Um but it's it's funny because it doesn't start off really at least I didn't notice it in the first sentence. Um, but yeah, that second sentence, the road now turned south and went quickly downwards, running out from between the arms of the dale. So that from like a sound pattern perspective, that doesn't doesn't sound like anything special. Someway below the mirror they came on a deep well of water, clear as crystal, from which a fresh it fell over a stone lip and ran glistening and gurgling down a steep rocky channel. Yeah. Like all of a sudden we start getting all these pairs, right? Well, water, clear, crystal, fresh, it fell, glistening. I know from also, but but those those really close pairs glistening, gurgling. Um really um really prominent, right? Um they came on a deep well of water clear as crystal from which a fresh it fell over a stone lip and ran glistening and gurgling down a steep rocky channel.

[00:10:42]Um we even get things think like stone lip and steep like stone and steep kind of framing that a little bit. Um Done ran steep rocky. I mean, yeah, the second um the second that second sentence gets really intense, right? And by the way, like fresh it.

[00:11:12]There are a lot of words for very small river. Um English is full of words for a very small body of moving water, right?

[00:11:24]It could be a stream. It could be a creek. It could be a a a real, you know, there's lot freshit.

[00:11:32]That's um really obscure.

[00:11:37]Really obscure. Um freshit is not one of the uh one one of the more common stream synonyms that one could use to describe this brook. Right. Exactly.

[00:11:51]Yes. as Erd says it's not really on the bingo card. No, it's really not. Um, in other words, that really feels to me I mean, it's a fun word here. I mean, of course, like in that it contains the word fresh it, like the word fresh, right, in it. So, it it conveys this sense of like, you know, we've got we've already been told that it was clear as crystal and then we get the word fresh to describe it right after that. So it there's this sense of, you know, it it contributes to this sort of delightful sense of the purity of the water. Um but um and yeah, I agree, Miss Ray. Even the F and then the sh and then the F for fresh it fell. Um uh all those fricatives there, fresh it fell. Um it it does sound a little water rushing.

[00:12:50]Um, yes. Yes. And good. As Jackie is pointing out, as I know Nancy pointed out earlier, once again, we have a lot of inanimate objects verbing here. Um, a fresh it fell over a stone lip and ran glistening and gurgling down a steep rocky channel. Um, the stream is a very active little stream, right?

[00:13:18]Um, so yeah, and it it seems to be from the beginning of the like the first half of the paragraph and the second half of the paragraph, all of the sudden this overflowing um you know these pairings of these illiterative pairings there um they just they start bubbling up as soon as we start describing the water, right?

[00:13:46]They came on a deep well of water.

[00:13:49]Clear as crystal. Um that that separated phrase clear as crystal is our first I mean well of water I know but like that's pretty gentle like because W is not a it's not a consonant that really punches you in the face, you know, like unlike K, you know, C is a consonant that that really stands out. But anyway, like it's it's as soon as we get there, we start alliterating with these pairs.

[00:14:15]Um, so I think it's connected that is it seems to be the description of the activity of the silver load.

[00:14:33]The silver load and its spring seems to be what's triggering um all of this alliteration. Um and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I I agree, Miss Ray. I agree with you that the the fricatives in Fresh It Fell do seem to sort of imitate in some sense the sound of water. Although, you know, I'm still not convinced that anamanopia merely like replicating atmospheric sounds through the sounds of letters.

[00:15:19]I'm not convinced that anamanopia is one of the driving forces behind Tolken's illiterative patterns. I think that the sort of soundsscapes that he builds through his his sound pattern when he does sound patterning like this, I think it's more more atmospheric than that. I think it's I sometimes I think that there can be moments when we can see that and I I think that that's possible to see it that way. Um but um but I do think that that is that seems to me rarely the answer to the overall question like what is he doing with his aliterative patterning? What is he doing with his sound patterns in this in this sentence?

[00:16:07]The answer is rarely or rarely simply I think like imitating atmospheric sounds.

[00:16:14]Um yeah um it is true ad purle that gurgle gurgling is itself an anamonop poetic word. Yes gurgle is a word which is just a sound with put to letters right. Yes that is true. Um, and I think that's why although we do get another G immediately. Well, I was about to say he does another gl withoutiterating it with another gl he is right. We get the hard G at the beginning, but we get the gl in the middle of gurgling, right? Gurgling. Um, I tend as an American to say gurgling.

[00:17:06]Um, gurgling. But I don't think that's how talking would have pronounced it. I think it would have been more there would have been more gl in it. Gurgling.

[00:17:15]Yes, exactly. A gurgling. Um, America, at least in my accent, I tend to say the word gurgle and then put the ing at the end. Gurgling. Um, instead of gurgling.

[00:17:31]Glistening and gurgling is I think more like how talking would have said it. Um, yes, there is more of a goal g Adam exactly as you suggest in the middle of the word when I say it, right? And I think most Americans um but I think that uh talking and many of our British friends um would you'd hear the gl much more clearly in the middle of that gurgling glistening and gurgling. So you get the you get the the gl in the middle which would pick up the sound of glistening and then it just you just get a bonus G right at the beginning of the word in between. Um so that is not an example of him failing to alliterate gl um he is doing it. Um, yeah.

[00:18:32]I wonder if it has to do uh I wonder if it has to do with sorry, let me explain my anticedent. What is it that I'm talking about?

[00:18:50]I I'm I'm still thinking about this this sudden shift. This is a really interesting piece of aliteration to me because of the way he just flips the switch with it in the middle of the paragraph like that in the middle of a sentence really. Um, and it correlates here so clearly with the description of this dream that I'm wondering.

[00:19:25]And here I'm trying to get at one of those things just like I said when I said just a few minutes ago that what he's trying to accomplish with the sound of his sentences with the sound of his words I think goes beyond mere anamanopia like merely just trying to replicate sound. I think he does I mean he chooses gurgling because it's anamonop poetic here and I think he is using some the fricatives and the s's which do sound like running water. So I think that's involved but I don't think it's the complete description. Um it certainly doesn't to me seem to um explain well of water clear as crystal exactly. Um, but again, what interests me more than which letters he's alliterating on here is the mere fact of him flipping the switch as soon as he's describing the well and the water flowing out of it.

[00:20:28]Like, and I wonder if it's if it's about I can't say this properly. I want to say something like um active versus passive, but that's not a really great way to say it at all. Um that is when he's there's more life like his that description of the water. As soon as he starts describing the baby silver load, right, trickling out of this well, the whole um um the whole like it's the deliteration springs to life. We get all of this activity that resonates in our ears, right? like many of you when I finished reading that were saying, "Whoa, there's so much alliteration going on there."

[00:21:26]Um, but sudden alliteration happening there. Um, and and so I wonder if that's part that's what I mean, what I'm vaguely and poorly gesturing towards when I'm talking about active and passive, that there's something more uh energetic, more um like it's engaging more of your senses. Um, and that that that like that's what he's turning on.

[00:21:56]um you get the sort of more to use my poor word pairing um like more of the sort of passive description as he's just saying the road turned south and went quickly downwards you know I'm going to first I'm going to tell you where the where the road is going right and then I'm going to tell you about the well of water right and then boom now all of a sudden instead of just the like yeah okay and this was happening and now boom now we're supposed to we're supposed to tune in right now our imagination is being engaged in really a new way um with that with those those popping pairs of sounds. And again, as I pointed out before, it's one thing when he just starts riffing on a sound throughout a paragraph, you know, like one of those paragraphs that we'll read and we'll be like, "This paragraph brought to you by the letter S, right?" Um, but this isn't one of those paragraphs.

[00:22:56]This is one of the fling fuel on the fire moments, right? This is one of those like I am going out of my way, like so far out of my way, I'm going to use the word fresh it to describe this stream, which like almost nobody's ever heard of. Um, I'm going to So, I'm going to use this super obscure word just for the sake of getting those fricatives together right at that point. So, he's going pretty far out of his way um to do this stuff. Uh, but he really he like he really wants this to pop. And if he had spread those out a little bit more, I don't think it would have jumped out to us nearly as much. Um, so he does them in those pairs to make sure that it hits our ears. well of water clear as crystal from which a fresh it fell over a stone lip and ran glistening and gurgling down a steep rocky channel. Um so yeah, I think that it's and I hear um there several of you have been talking about you know the the sort of new life of the description of the landscape now compared to the darkness of Moria. And that's true, but my focus here is less on the feel of this paragraph compared to paragraphs two pages earlier and more the comparison of the last two and a half lines of this paragraph compared to the first two and a half lines of this paragraph. It's the it's the turn on a dime. It's the I find this especially an an interesting data point because we're not I do not think we're seeing him just kind of arbitrarily lapse into this like he flips the switch here and it's correlated with a specific with a specific thing right a specific item that he's describing. Um, and so I think we can see again the the depth of the well, the clarity of the water, the freshness of it, even the stone lip makes it sound like it's being poured out of a cup, right?

[00:25:28]Um, and it's the glistening beauty of it as it gurgles on its way down the steep rocky channel. Um, yeah, he's engaging our imagination, but he's engaging our he's engaging our ears like in order to do that basically.

[00:25:53]Um, and so that's why I find it such an such an interesting example, such an important example potentially. Um, is that one of the things that he's doing with his alliteration? Does he want to activate activate our imag? I don't love active and passive, but I kind of do like activate as a metaphor for what's happening here. Is he wanting to activate our engagement with it in some way? Um, yeah.

[00:26:32]Because it has relevance to understanding the cues he's giving in other places. Um, then we get Gimley's explanation.

[00:26:45]Here is the spring from which the silver load arises.

[00:26:50]Do not drink of it. It is icy cold. So, on the one hand, Gimley's tour guiding again. Um, and of course, you got to love Gimly tourg guiding in a place he's seeing himself for the first time. Right. This is yet another reflection of Gimley has heard many, many stories of Dimmerald Dale, right? Um he has been told stories about this place his whole life and um he's he's so yes he immediately knows what this is and why it's important um in its way I remember I remember when I was a kid reading this and looking at the map um the mirror mirror mirror. The vision in the mirror mirror that we were discussing last time I think kind of went over my head a little bit as a kid. Like I I just the deeps of mirror mirror were too deep for me when I was eight. Um so I would kind of read over that paragraph and just be like, "Yeah, huh, that's weird."

[00:28:05]Um and um but this moment here is the spring from which the silver load rises because see I could look at the map at the beginning of the book and I could see the silver load on the map and um I always thought that was really cool.

[00:28:28]Like this is the this is the origin.

[00:28:30]This is the beginning. That river starts here. like there aren't that many that aren't that there there aren't that many like times when I've seen that, you know, or at least known that I've seen it. Uh like the the spring from which what will become a great river is um uh is is uh you know is is is going it's going to eventually become a big river, but this is its origin point. Um, that's really that's really fun. Um, that felt I mean again I remember as a kid like that felt special to me like this is the spring from which the silver load rises. And what I don't think I ever processed before is how fascinating it is that Tolken has juxtaposed this here. Like emphasizing not just the overload, not just the the cleanness of this overload or the um you know uh or even the coldness of it.

[00:29:37]We'll come back to that in a minute. Um but um but it's a new beginning right this is this is this is a start and of course it's right as the company is start and this is a new start for the company Gandalf is gone Aragorn is now taking the lead and there's you know this moment post Moria very much feels like a Like a rebirth, Moren. Exactly. Like a like a beginning.

[00:30:12]Um um a new beginning. Um to their journey, their quest, their understanding even of what they're doing. Um and so yeah, the fact that we get the birth of the river. Um, and that's what Gimly emphasizes, but then immediately says, "Do not drink of it.

[00:30:45]It is icy cold."

[00:30:49]And that too always really hit me.

[00:30:55]There's this sense of holiness in the sense of it's set us set apart, right? like, you know, mortals can't touch it, right? Um, yeah, Moren, it always made it feel like a sort of like like a sacred well. Like it's it's just it's dangerous. It's so cold. Um, it's so cold that mortals can't touch it without suffering. Um, and it's tempting. Like that description sounded lovely.

[00:31:40]You know, that lovely illiterative description kind of made me thirsty reading it. And I can imagine coming across it and being like, "Ah, look at this. This looks like the queerest, most beautiful water ever."

[00:31:52]And Gibway's like, "No, no, no. Don't touch it." Not because like it's just a taboo, but because it will hurt you.

[00:32:04]Um, and like it's unsafe for people to drink. There's something extra special about that. Um, yeah. Um, interesting. JJ says it reminds him of uh the warning against drinking from the river in Murkwood.

[00:32:28]Yeah. I mean, it's it's different. the you've got the enchanted stream of ferry, but this is in fact a fairy river as well, right? That they're told not to drink from. Um Yeah. Yeah. Um also very different from not drinking the water that flows out of Morgle Veil.

[00:32:52]Yeah, that's that's also different. Um, yeah, Vardelle, I have always thought that Silver Load was a was a a double antandra, right? Like it's uh, as you say, lead and load are British words for waterways and channels, but yes, it also sounds like a mining pun as well. So, yes. Yes, it does sound like a load of silver as if dwarves might mine it. Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:32]Um, yeah. Um, yeah, Melurn, I don't know that there is any evidence that like touching or drinking from the silver load is at all like forbidden generally. Um uh his his warning here is purely practical here. Um do not drink of it.

[00:34:06]It is icy cold. Um but again in some ways I always found rather than diminishing the sort of otherworldly sense right of it like I mean it would create a sort of mystique if he is like do not drink of it is forbidden right if he had just if he had said that instead do not drink of it is forbidden um it would be like oh Okay. Right. But see, then I would only feel like I were accommodating like dwarfish customs. I wouldn't feel like it was necessarily something about the river itself. Right.

[00:34:49]But this like no, it's too cold to drink. Like it is so cold as it emerges from the ground that it will hurt you.

[00:34:56]Um this this this water is too much for you. Um, there's something about the water itself that makes it at least impractical to touch and therefore sets it aside. Um, yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's I always I've always loved that uh that those directions from Gimily. So that combination of the the dangerous to touch water that we are seeing born this little baby river which is going to become a significant river on the map um and like a a really interesting river because the way of it it flows down to Loth Laurian um is u anyway it's it's really Um it's really it's interesting with that that that emphasis on rebirth and beginning balinor. Yes. Load is from lad in old English which means a a a way or water course as well as load in the or sense.

[00:36:15]In fact, load in the ore sense is load in the way or water course sense used metaphorically, I think. Right?

[00:36:25]Like a load of silver in rock looks like a little stream of silver in the rock, right? So, I think that's a metaphor.

[00:36:34]Like it's called load. like the load of ore is the metaphorical usage and the pathway or or water course usage I think is like the literal meaning of it. Um I think but um yes just like calling a load of a vein.

[00:36:59]Yes, that's also a metaphor. It's not literally a vein, right? no liquid is flowing through it. But yes, the fact that loads of ore can be called veins um show you that the liquid metaphor to describe uh loads or veins of ore in rock is pretty compelling. Like it kind of looks like it's flowing, right? It kind of looks like liquid there. Um, yeah, Gerta, that's interesting. This is the last of seven times Icy occurs in the Fellowship of the Ring.

[00:37:43]Yeah. Yeah. Um, that's interesting.

[00:37:50]See, that's my favorite kind of trivia game. I could play that trivia game all night long. I'm not going to indulge myself in it because we're going to talk about that last paragraph now. Um but um but yes like the word icy is used seven times in the fellowship of the ring where can you name the seven sentences in which the word icy occurs in the fellowship of the ring? That is my favorite kind of trivia uh talking trivia uh competition. Um yeah yeah um anyway. Okay, let's keep going.

[00:38:29]Uh, I No, no, no. I'm gonna stop. I'm just gonna stop thinking about it. I'm gonna stop thinking about it. Um, okay.

[00:38:42]Aragorn immediately adds on to Gimley's remark. And notice how Aragorn kind of diverts the stream from just an observation about that well that they're looking at right now to he begins to kind of he's thinking forward right soon it becomes a swift river and it gathers water from many other mountain streams said Aragorn. Our road leads beside it for many miles.

[00:39:17]Okay, so we're going to come along this stream. It's going to get much bigger, right? So, I'm preparing you for the road ahead. We're going to be following along the stream so you know where we're headed and you know what to expect. This is going to become a swift river soon as it gathers water from many other mountain streams.

[00:39:35]Um, okay. So he takes the tour guide thing and he turns it into the path ahead.

[00:39:47]Do you notice I think my own reading here as I've been hinting from my class title and other things um that Aragorn is being evasive here. I think that Aragorn is speaking very cautiously in this paragraph.

[00:40:12]Our road leads beside it for many miles, for I shall take you by the road that Gandalf chose, and first I hope to come to the woods where the silver load flows into the great river out yonder.

[00:40:28]It's like Yes, Bob. Bob, that's exactly it. It's like he's carefully not using the the L word.

[00:40:37]Yes. Yes. And I absolutely think Balinor and Moren that he is anticipating an argument and he doesn't want to have it yet.

[00:40:54]Um I I think he's he's being so cautious here. I mean, the woods where the silver load flows into the great river. The woods where the silver load flows into the great river. That's a tolerably famous piece of woodland right there.

[00:41:13]Like it's not some random cops of of trees, right? I mean, he is talking about Loth Lauren. He is talking about um you know, one of the great Elvish strongholds, and he he doesn't say it.

[00:41:28]Um, no, nobody's mentioned Loth Laurian yet, Josh. Um, and he just seems to be going miles out of his way to avoid talking about it.

[00:41:41]It's almost like he's hoping that Boramir doesn't put it together. Boramir way may well know what the wood is where the silver load flows into the great river. Maybe he didn't study his maps quite that carefully, right? I don't know.

[00:41:58]Um, but I mean, yeah, Adam, it sounds like that.

[00:42:08]Um, Fencing Frog says, "A classic management strategy. Don't bring up the objectionable action until you can't avoid it." Yes. And until nobody can avoid it, basically. like when it's still early enough that somebody might make an argument that you could make a detour right now and avoid that of you know that that that thing right wait until you show up and you know anyway of course like little spoiler Aragorn's um Aragorn's work is going to be for not right because right after this really careful speech remember what happens there lie The woods of Loth Laurian, said Legololis, right? He's gonna blow it completely.

[00:42:58]It's like, thanks, Legololis. Can you walk in the back now, please?

[00:43:04]Yeah. Yeah. No. Um, Legololis is gonna gonna have his moment, right? Um, and uh and and ruin Josh says Gandalf should have set him on fire when he had the chance.

[00:43:20]Yes. Yes, exactly. Um, yeah. Anyway, right. Exactly, Moren. Like, Legololis chooses now to speak up after this is what, the third time he's said anything.

[00:43:33]Um, yeah. Yeah. But, um, anyway, um, we'll we'll get we'll we'll do Legos's intervention next time. But but again, notice Aragorn's whole approach after he talks about the road ahead. Our road leads beside it for many miles.

[00:43:55]I'm not telling you where we're headed.

[00:43:57]I'm just telling you we're going to go along this stream if you know that. I mean, so like let me actually I have the map. This is Christopher and Tolken's map here. So here's the silver load coming down right towards Laurian um joining with the Nimredell uh right before it gets to the forest and then flowing through the forest to the great river. So of course Laurian is the forest the woods that where the where the river uh where the rivers meet.

[00:44:29]Um so he's saying right so if we go back right a road leads beside it for many miles. I shall take you by the road that Gandalf chose. Um, right. Our road leads beside it for many miles. So, we're going to walk downstream down the Silver Load. If they stick to the stream, it's going to take them straight to Laurian. Like, there's no avoiding that.

[00:44:55]If you look at the map, there's an option.

[00:44:59]They could just cut south, follow the river for a little bit, and then just go south parallel to the mountains. Cross the Nimrdell. They're going to have to cross the Nimrdell anyway. Cross the Nimell and go around Laurian. Totally possible.

[00:45:17]Totally possible to skip um Laurian here, especially if they have this discussion right now. Right. But once he's led them along the silver load all the way down to the woods, then they have to like double back and go further out of their way, right? Um, yeah. Anyway, okay. So, I shall take but so first sort of evasively our road leads beside it for many miles. Then for I shall take you by the road that Gandalf chose.

[00:46:02]Like he name drops dead Gandalf.

[00:46:06]Like surely nobody is going to disrespect our dearly departed leader by calling into question the road that I know that he chose. Right. So we're gonna we're going to follow this way down the Gandalf Memorial Road. Right.

[00:46:24]down towards down towards the um down towards the woods which I shant name and first I hope to come to the woods.

[00:46:38]Um I just I really kind of love this paragraph. I think and and I my interpretation is I absolutely agree with the comments that several of you were were making.

[00:46:54]He's he's anticipating an argument with Boramir. Now, of course, this is assisted by the fact that I can't help but remember ahead that there's going to be an argument with Boramir.

[00:47:06]Um, and I think it is interesting and worthwhile to recall that Boramir is not going to argue that right now. In fact, even when legalist blows the whole political maneuver here, right? The uh you know, ix onlay, you know, approach that Ericorn is taking to the um uh to the to the to to the road ahead. Um Louise, it's interesting.

[00:47:43]Gimly Gimley doesn't object.

[00:47:48]Um, Gimley doesn't object.

[00:47:54]Um, yeah, I'm not sure, Josh, that Tolken would approve of Pig Quenya. Um, or Pig Cinderin for that matter, but uh, whatever. There it is. Um well we we don't have to remember ahead.

[00:48:17]We will see. Um but the primary objection that Gimley is going to make is to being blindfolded when he goes in to to be being blindfolded like a uh like a spy. Um to that he's going to object. But merely entering Laurian, he doesn't object to.

[00:48:41]Um, yes, as Louise says, the elves object to Gimy. Gimly doesn't object to entering there. Um, that's a that's a thing that is understandably played up in the films.

[00:48:56]Um, you know, they they're wanting to build up the elf dwarf thing. Um, which makes sense because film viewers have less context for that than um than book readers do at that point. Um, but uh but yeah, get Gimly doesn't object. Boromir is going to object. Um, Gimy doesn't object. And Aragorn, well, we will see. Aragorn has quite a different card up his sleeve to play when that argument comes out. Um, even I just out yonder like he just points towards the golden haze in the lower lands, right?

[00:49:51]He is so Aragorn is so stuck with how to describe where they're going without saying the L word that he ends up just pointing Right. Yeah. We're We're going that way. Over that that way. There's trees and stuff over there. Yeah. That's that's that's vaguely where we're going because that's what Gandalf wanted.

[00:50:13]It's a it's it's fascinating. And I agree there's this is he is speaking very cautiously. I think that both of these leadership speeches that we have seen Aragorn make in the post Gandalf era.

[00:50:35]Okay. Three, I guess if you count um we must heed his final words, right? That his follow me speech. Um as they're going to run out, you know, as they're running out of Moria. Um you know, we must obey his last command. Um, I wasn't counting that one, but I'll count that one. That one plus the, you know, we've got to go now, farewell to Gandalf, um, speech and then this speech.

[00:51:02]We can see him being careful. We can see him, um, because he knows, he remembers there's been tension.

[00:51:17]There's been tension uh with Boromir.

[00:51:20]Boromir's been really good and especially lately.

[00:51:27]Um I love that moment of near like reconciliation.

[00:51:34]Um, remember the moment when Boramir kind of makes up to Gandalf and and you know shows him how ready he is to follow his lead um after he has led them so well through Moria beyond Boromir's fears in that deadly dark. Um but but he Aragorn is certainly being cautious. He's not taking for granted his leadership. Um, and he is preparing um he is preparing for the possibility of dispute.

[00:52:28]One of the things that I'm interested in looking at through this like sort of beginning here in this passage and moving through the next few chapters, you'll remember that you'll remember ahead that someday, and I'm not going to put a date on it, Froto is going to say to Phamir that Boramir was satisfied of Aragorn's claim.

[00:52:56]And you'll remember that Faramir says he knows Boramir well enough to know that if Boramir were satisfied with Aragorn's claim that Boramir would greatly reverence him. Remember that's what Farmir says.

[00:53:17]And I don't see I don't see clear evidence of that yet.

[00:53:24]Reverence for Aragorn that Boramir has shown.

[00:53:33]Is he yet convinced of his claim from we saw his skepticism, Boromir skepticism um of Aragorn when Aragorn shows him the sword that was broken.

[00:53:51]Um, there's a challenge that Boramir sort of lays down, a challenge to Aragorn to sort of show that he's worthy of Elendel's sword.

[00:54:08]And I think that's still in process. Yeah, Dr. Benway. Um, yeah, I agree. Dr. Dr. Ben says, "I've always wondered how Froto gets that reference." Like, um, yeah, me too. And, um, uh, we'll see. But exactly, Andrew, uh, Andrew Perth. Um, has, uh, has Aragorn shown enough senus yet? Yes. Yeah, that's a real question.

[00:54:40]Um, I do think Boromir is going to get there. I don't think that Froto's I don't think that Froto's wrong. Um though of course Froto also was speaking with skill in a hard place um in my that was my title for the class today of course Aragorn speaks with skill in a hard place and I was quoting Farier in that exchange with Froto uh when I said that. So I was that scene was kind of in my head anyway. Um, but anyway, so examining carefully the dynamics between Aragorn and Boramir is going to be one of my favorite things to look at in this second half of book two.

[00:55:17]Um, as we work down towards the breaking of the fellowship at the end. Um, so there's time stuff is going to happen. You know, there's there's there's there's going to be time. Um, but what I think we see now, I think that the caution that Aragorn is not speaking like somebody who assumes everyone's going to do what he says.

[00:55:44]He is being careful and deliberate in his stepping into his leadership. And I think from what we have seen to this point, it is perfectly clear that Boramir is the one from whom he is anticipating push back.

[00:56:04]And there's there are lots of ways in which that makes perfect sense.

[00:56:11]Aragorn like it's not obvious.

[00:56:15]It may feel obvious to us now that Gandalf has fallen Aragorn's obviously the leader of the company, but I'm not sure that that is necessarily obvious to Boramir yet.

[00:56:28]And I'm not even sure from the outside, like is it just as obvious to Legololis and Gimy? I mean, it may be obvious to the hobbits because they've known him for longer. They've followed him in the wilderness before.

[00:56:42]So, like, they know he's a good guide.

[00:56:44]They know that, you know. So, so yeah, to the hobbits, sure, the hobbits are going to assume Aragorn's in charge and not Boromir.

[00:56:52]But Boromir certainly might question that.

[00:56:58]Legololis and Gimy again, is it going to be obvious? Peter Jackson invented that stuff about Legololis and Ergorn being best buddies, you know, prior to this.

[00:57:11]Um, it's an interesting dynamic that the film introduces. I like it, but it's not in the book. Um, Legol's just a strange elf, right? Um, so, um, anyway, uh, I but I think Aragorn's caution shows he at least is not acting like someone who believes he has Boramir's reverence already.

[00:57:47]Um, he's ready for Boramir to challenge him. Bormir has been challenging Gandalf, right? Um, who is next in command after Gandalf was never perfectly clear. Um, yeah. Um I agree ad purle I think the journey for Boramir isn't going to with in his relationship with Aragorn is going to be complete until I'm on Hen um but um yeah yeah um but yes fencing frog I agree a good leader as a good leader Aragorn is and expecting and anticipating the challenge. Um, and he's handling it cautiously. He's not just being a He is being evasive, but he's not just being evasive. Um, because you can be evasive in a way that is weak, right? Like I just I'm trying to avoid conflict or I'm trying to slide this past everybody. And I don't think that he's just I don't think that he's doing that that way. After all, what he what he knows for sure, um, they have got to move. The orcs are going to come.

[00:59:21]The orcs are going to come out when it gets dark. They've got a certain number of hours to cross as much distance as they possibly can. And now is not the time for this. They might have this debate later on, but now is definitely not the time for this. Um, so it's very practical. It's a practical move to say if I just right now say, "All right, we are headed to the mystic elven kingdom of Lorian." Um, that Boramu is going to be like, "Okay, I had my doubts and now I know this is a bad idea, right? We're totally not doing that." Um but uh um but later um is going to be is going to be a better time to have this and they will have this discussion later. Um, Gerted Crayon.

[01:00:20]It's not, again, it's not right now that they have a choice. Like, they have to go down the Dimmerald Dale. Like, that's the only way out at this point, right?

[01:00:29]But again, like if you go back to the map in Tolken's map here, he didn't draw Loth Laurian right up bang up against the mountains. It's not like Loth Laurian is the only way out of the mountains necessarily. Um, you don't have to enter the woods. You could go around. Like the map makes it look like it's possible to go around. Now, who knows what this white space on the map actually looks like on the ground, right? Um, uh, you know, it could be like really broken rocky valleys and it's funneling you straight down the river valley and you actually don't have any choice maybe.

[01:01:09]Um, but, um, but you could go around.

[01:01:13]Yes, Jackie, that's right. Aragorn did go around Laurian um when he came up this way with Gullum. Yes.

[01:01:23]Um Yeah. So um so you I think it's possible for them to it's theoretically possible for them to go around, but he does not want that discussion right now.

[01:01:40]Um, yeah. Yeah. Um, yes, Andrew, I do think he's got a couple like he's got a couple cards he's ready to play when that debate comes out on the table. And one is that what the biggest one is this is the safest place we could possibly be from the orcs if we don't want to. We could go south through the, you know, the broken and wild country along the mountains. Um, you know, south and to the east of the mountains with the orcs right on our trail the whole time. Or we could go to the place that we know that the orcs cannot possibly enter. Um yeah. Um but yes, exactly, Andrew. So he's he's he's going to play that card when it comes out and it is going to come up soon and when it does come up, he's going to play that card. He just he doesn't want to have that debate right now, I think, more than anything else.

[01:02:54]um this now is not the time for it. And um just peeking ahead to the next slide, notice Aragorn's response to Legololis's ecstatic speech about Laurian.

[01:03:13]Let us hasten. It is It lies many miles away. Let us hasten. Right in a shut up, Leis, and let's get moving. Right. the point is not to have this discussion right now. Um, so he like he responds courteously. He's going to respond courteously to Legololis and then he's going to be like, "But let's get moving, shall we?" Um, yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, Nive. It's not that I think they're actually using that rule to guide them, but it's it says uh consider the entire quest is predicated on roots that Boromir thinks are bad ideas. So perhaps the beth meth best method is always to consider what would Boramir not do. Right. Right. Um Yeah.

[01:04:00]Yeah. Exactly. Again, I don't think that was their uh that was their guiding um methodology from the beginning, but maybe it maybe it ought to have been. Um yeah. Yeah. Anyway, um it's probably a coincidence. Fencing Frog, I totally agree, right? Josh now wants a WWBND.

[01:04:22]What would Boramir not do? Or like what would Boramir sternly advise against? Uh what would Boramir like raise a pointed objection to? Um if Boramir is objecting, you know you're on the right path. Um, yeah. Anyway, um, I love how the narrator kind of teases us because there's somebody else who is doesn't really know anything about Love, Laurian, and it's us, right? It's the readers.

[01:04:59]Um, we had that hint. Remember the um not the foreshadowing but the for lightning of of um Loth Laurian in the dim distance as we were surveying the whole valley from when they were still high up um where the where Moria where Moria came out. Um and um we get a similar thing again here. They looked at his as he pointed to out yonder. For illuminating, I like that, Eric. That's good. For illuminating. Um, they looked as he pointed and before them they could see the stream leaping down to the trough of the valley. Just like Aragorn said, we're going to follow the stream. And then running on and away into the lower lands until it was lost in a golden haze. Why the haze in the distance is golden here. He's not um he neither he neither Aragorn nor Tolken explains, right? But that's our second hint about the golden wood that's coming up. Um of course, Legos is about to lay a great deal more than a hint on us. Um Jack Rabbit, it is interesting that it runs from silver to gold, right? the silver load flowing down into the golden haze. Certainly, whatever else we're getting, we're getting that precious metal sense of things, right?

[01:06:30]There's this sense of of uh of preciousness and gorgeousness um like silver and gold and the two trees. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um yeah, like like the trees of Valinor.

[01:06:51]Exactly. Exactly. Two Jews men. Um yeah.

[01:06:55]So um so yes, we've we're just being given hints. So because because I I'm interested not only in how Aragorn is managing the potential Boramir objections, but how Tolken is unfolding this for us.

[01:07:13]The first one, the first four illuminating of uh of LF Laurian was so gentle that it'd be easy to miss.

[01:07:25]If you don't know that Laurian is coming, you probably would miss it. But this this now begins to be a little bit mysterious. Why Why is the haze golden exactly in the distance? After all, it's January.

[01:07:41]Why is there a golden haze in the distance?

[01:07:45]It's not like it's autumn and you might expect colorful leaves depending on where you live. Um and the sun's behind them, Eric. Yeah, exactly.

[01:07:56]So, so yeah, it it the first one was so subtle that if you don't know what's coming, you almost certainly not notice it. This one, this second hint is a slightly more prominent mystery, Golden Haze.

[01:08:14]And then, of course, um, of course, Legololis is going to pick right up on that and expand on that. He's going to he's going to take up the hint in Golden Haze. Um, and uh, and run with it here. Um, and yes, Jackie, you had said before, um, you had said before that, uh, it's going to be interesting to compare Gimley's anticipation of Moria and Legal's anticipation of Laflorian.

[01:08:55]Um, and that is definitely certainly one of the things that I too am thinking of as we approach Legalis's um, speech here that's coming up. Um, and I I think it's a I think it's a really fascinating pairing. So, we certainly want to be keeping that in mind uh, as we um u as we look at that next time because we are out of time tonight. All right, that'll do it for tonight uh for our slide for our book discussion for tonight. Um we will look at Legalis's speech about Loth Laurian um uh and Aragorn's admirable restraint at not strangling him when he gives it.

[01:09:44]And uh and we'll see we'll see how Legololis's enthusiasm and Giml's enthusiasms compare with each other.

[01:09:56]All right. Um yeah, Aronas, that's a really good question to be asking. Um why is it that Legos has never been to Love Laurian before? It's an interesting question.

[01:10:09]Yeah. Yeah. We'll keep that one in mind, too, uh, as we move into our passage next week. All right, thanks everybody for joining me. Um, I, as far as I know, should be here next week. Uh, my my May is a little interesting when it comes to my travel plans. Um, because there's a anyway, there's a potential wild card trip that I don't even know the dates of yet. So, we'll see what happens. I don't even know. Um, so I'm kind of week to week, but next week should be good. Um, after after uh Mountain Moot, I should be back from Denver in plenty of time.

[01:10:46]I'll be ready for Tuesday. All right.

[01:10:48]Um, field trip time now. So, let's uh shift over. Thanks to everybody who's joining us for book discussion and let's go back to I was um Druids Fire was in a a weird layer before but I fortuitously timed out and when I came back I'm now seem to be in the same layer as other people. So that's good.

[01:11:15]>> I think it's that they I wound up in your weird layer because it's the anniversary right now. So everybody's in Brie. Everybody's in Bri. Okay.

[01:11:24]>> Yeah. So, if anybody needs to join our little raid, please send a tell to Kirana. I put the name in uh in Discord and I will send you a an invite.

[01:11:36]>> Yes. So, we are going to the Deep Descent for the first time in some time. We are not going to the rotting cellar.

[01:11:46]>> Hooray.

[01:11:48]>> Okay.

[01:11:49]>> Smell of mold out of my cloak.

[01:11:51]>> Exactly. Let's get out of the rotting sour up to the deep descent. We were looking at the approach from the top down towards the silver teen loads last time.

[01:12:05]And there we are in the basement.

[01:12:07]>> Wait, you didn't have to disconnect and reconnect.

[01:12:09]>> I didn't. Yes. Like that thing that was gonna be good is like still actually good. So >> don't jinx it.

[01:12:19]>> I know. The thing that I jinxed last time is uh like I figured one of these times it was going to work out. I don't know why. Something about the way that I don't know. I'm not going to ask any questions. This is what's happening. So I didn't have to disconnect and reconnect.

[01:12:38]Okay.

[01:12:38]>> Party on.

[01:12:40]>> Um so yes, if you So folks were Yeah, there there are no there are not multiple layers in Bri. There are not multiple layers here um in Moria. So if you just come straight to here then uh you should be able to catch up with us. All right.

[01:12:59]So we were headed down from >> the goblin.

[01:13:08]>> I'm forgetting already it was two weeks.

[01:13:09]What was what did we decide that this was? Oh, yeah. We decided this was like a like a like a sort of a customs area or some kind of checkpoint between the mines and the market up the hill.

[01:13:23]>> I believe we did. Yes.

[01:13:25]>> Okay. All right. That seems that seems likely. Um, so from here then we're going down towards the mine. And immediately upon going through here, we've got fancy ceiling.

[01:13:43]Fancy ceiling.

[01:13:44]>> Very finished. It is very fancy. Look at that.

[01:13:46]>> Yeah, that's a super fancy ceiling with like multiple patterns in it.

[01:13:52]>> Um, >> it's even got some uh some some architecture that fades into each other.

[01:13:59]I wonder how the dwarves manage that.

[01:14:01]>> That's really interesting.

[01:14:05]It's almost like it's like this special vaulting that's over the other uh the other ceiling.

[01:14:11]>> I mean, out of character, we know why it is the way it is, but in character.

[01:14:15]>> Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[01:14:16]>> Like, how did he do that?

[01:14:17]>> Yeah. No, it's very interesting. Um, it's a sharp change. Not There's a There's a floor that descends down. There's debris and stuff growing on it, but um it's there's a floor and there's the one archway, but other than that, it shifts over to becoming mostly natural rock that we can still see some wall that was built presumably to kind of buttress the walls here and make sure it doesn't cave in.

[01:14:55]I'm a little bit surprised that there aren't any loadbearing members here on this mountain jagged uh these arrays down here because they look like they should collapse.

[01:15:05]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:15:09]Yeah. Um Oh no. Andrew Perth are coming in from Mirramir. If you stable master into like you can the the key is the dolphin view. If you can get to the dolphin view from anywhere. Um, like if you can get to the >> I have to tell the Kuriana, I'll get you in the group and then I can summon you.

[01:15:26]>> That's true. Yeah.

[01:15:30]Okay. All right. So, we came down the hill.

[01:15:33]We're now in this mostly natural cave with some ceiling and some wall structures. Again, that just looks like to support it. Off to the east here, we've got these wooden beams.

[01:15:55]I associate with mining areas.

[01:15:59]So, this looks like we're headed down to one mining area.

[01:16:04]There's no way forward. What is this other? Is this just a hatch or is this a pathway? No, this is a pathway. This is a totally rough pathway. This is the pathway we came up when we came here.

[01:16:15]>> Yes, it is.

[01:16:16]>> Yeah.

[01:16:16]>> This is like the main opening, the main uh I guess the main Well, it's my job basically.

[01:16:23]>> Yeah, this is the main way down into this over. Wow. Yeah, that's right. This >> Don't look down, >> right? Okay. Um so, and it's just it's just a path on natural stone at this point. Even the floor has gone by now.

[01:16:44]Okay, let's The other What is the other way? Is the other way? No, the other way is legit.

[01:16:53]The other way is not just like a a pathway to another area. That's part of this as well.

[01:17:00]Since we came up through the other one first, let's check out down this way.

[01:17:05]So, we do have these wooden supports which make this look like a mining area.

[01:17:12]Now, we come down to the that's just erected by goblins.

[01:17:20]>> Mhm.

[01:17:21]>> So, we have a goblin camp. Yeah. A little goblin town down here.

[01:17:26]>> Some amazing, aren't they?

[01:17:28]>> These gravings.

[01:17:32]Do we think these >> They look like you should You should fall through them, but you don't.

[01:17:36]>> Yeah, these have to be dwarf installed gradings.

[01:17:44]So, they didn't want to just bridge the little chasm that splits this room.

[01:17:53]They put a grating over it so that you could have the floor, but they didn't cover it. They That is, you can still see through it.

[01:18:03]It's almost like they they like it, the dwarves.

[01:18:08]>> Mhm.

[01:18:08]>> They like to be able to look down. Look at those beautiful crystals down there.

[01:18:12]>> Yeah, they are very very lovely down there.

[01:18:14]>> So, light comes up from underneath.

[01:18:18]Ventilation, Nancy, potentially. Sure.

[01:18:22]Yeah. So, they want air to flow. They want you be to be able to look down, but they wanted a floor in here. And again, if we look >> Well, the dwarves made the >> the dwarves. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Um, not the goblins, the dwarves. You can also see around the edges, around the walls, all of the larger mine shaft constructions and platforming and sort of scaffolding, right? That we can see.

[01:18:49]>> All the goblins got their banners up on the ceiling. But that's another question.

[01:18:54]>> Yeah, that is a really good question. That one is particularly high up there in on that stactite in the middle. Somebody lost a dare, I'm sure.

[01:19:04]>> Yeah.

[01:19:06]>> What is it attached to?

[01:19:09]>> Is that like a hanging cage?

[01:19:17]What is like the wooden thing that the red banner on on that stactite is hanging from?

[01:19:26]>> I'm not entirely sure.

[01:19:28]>> See what I mean? Like that thing that looks like a ball.

[01:19:30]>> Mhm. Yeah, >> like a >> like a dream catcher almost.

[01:19:33]>> Yeah, it's super Oh, wait. No, it's it's the same as this over here.

[01:19:40]>> Yeah. So, it looks like I It looks like a prisoner's cage.

[01:19:43]>> Yeah, it is a hanging cage.

[01:19:46]>> Yeah, there's another hanging cage with the banner on.

[01:19:52]>> You come over here to this corner though, you're going to see something cool.

[01:19:57]Andrew Perth says the red banner was describing the crimes of the creature who was imprisoned within the cage.

[01:20:03]Exactly.

[01:20:05]>> If you come over to where I am, >> there's some art on the wall.

[01:20:10]>> Oh, yeah.

[01:20:11]>> There it is.

[01:20:14]>> Oh, yeah. Sure. It's the battle of Azanobar.

[01:20:21]I mean, just deconstructing the artwork on this is really fascinating because you see like the the two bits of the mountain in the dark charcoal and then you can see who the dwarves are. You can see there's some trees on one side.

[01:20:32]There's fire. You can tell, you know, who's who um based on who has the beards around.

[01:20:38]>> Yeah. So, you've got the the the fat little guys with beards who are mostly running away with our little axes, right? um >> running away with their little hands up in the air, right?

[01:20:54]>> Um >> and fleeing out of Moria. So on the left hand side, it's the Dmerald Dale.

[01:20:59]>> On the right hand side, it's inside.

[01:21:01]>> So who's the biggest figure? Um do we remember who that is? Is that going to be Bulg?

[01:21:07]>> I think it's I think it's AOG.

[01:21:08]>> Yeah, AO. Bog's going to bed.

[01:21:11]>> Yeah. Well, Bog is Bo Bog is just sort of later, >> you know.

[01:21:17]>> Wolves, some orcs.

[01:21:19]>> Notice how he's got the he's got a three-pointed crown like the mountains of Moria.

[01:21:25]>> Oh, he does.

[01:21:26]>> Like he's the he's the true king of Moria.

[01:21:31]I love the red faces, the the red the triangor faces. Not all of which are red, but some of them are.

[01:21:40]Look at the little dwarves that have have like gotten stuck behind >> with the goblins stabbing them.

[01:21:48]>> Yeah. Into that fire. Uh and then the one with the the warg in the middle chomping on some poor dwarf's head.

[01:21:55]>> Yes. Yes. In the middle right there.

[01:21:57]Yes.

[01:22:03]So I think um I think that this is I mean it looks like the it's weird because if it's as anar it's this is a thing that never happened because >> maybe it's earlier >> the orcs did not chase the dwarves away.

[01:22:32]>> Well, it is of course propaganda.

[01:22:34]>> Yeah, it is. Um, so potentially it's like a reinvention or something. Um, >> AOG chased like Thor away.

[01:22:50]Um, yeah, AOG is still alive, which also would make it different from the Battle of Azobazar. Um, oh, wait, look, look.

[01:23:01]The dwarf AOG is stabbing has a crown.

[01:23:05]>> Yes, he does.

[01:23:11]>> I >> none of the other dwarf characters that I see have crowns on.

[01:23:15]>> No. Yeah, that's definitely the king of the dwarves that is being stabbed.

[01:23:21]Um, yeah, I do think that these are flames around the side.

[01:23:32]>> That makes that makes sense. Yeah.

[01:23:34]>> And probably these two that are these dwarves are in the fire and are being finished off by spears. It is different. I see what you mean.

[01:23:43]>> They're being shoved into the fire.

[01:23:45]>> Yeah, maybe they're being shoved into the fire. I mean, this fire is different because the these other fires have the orange and the yellow. Like really, the yellow is the dominant color in the fire in the rest of them. And there's no yellow at all over here. So, it's possible that there's something um sort of different happening.

[01:24:06]Is it it's conceivable of course that this is the dwarves being driven out of Kazadum and the fact that that's Duran being killed.

[01:24:26]>> Oo, >> that would make the big >> Would that be the bal, >> right? That would make the big crown figure the B. He doesn't have any wings >> or toes or you know nostrils but >> well that might be a big red thing might be a nostril. I mean it could be >> right right or a whip. Andrew that's more importantly yes he seems to be carrying >> his left hand does look like he's carrying something because he that doesn't look like his elbow there in the middle.

[01:24:54]>> No, it looks like a second sword.

[01:24:56]>> He has an elbow.

[01:24:57]>> He's got an elbow and then he's got something in his hand. I totally agree.

[01:25:01]But it does not look like a whip. It definitely Areronos, I agree. It looks like two blades >> or maybe a club in the left hand >> perhaps, but >> because all the blades seem to have crossuards, >> but I can't imagine they would surely if they were depicting the Balro, they'd associate it with fire, wouldn't they?

[01:25:28]Maybe the Balrogs fire is the one those two dudes are being shoved into >> possibly.

[01:25:34]But so I I can't think that that king goblin figure and it's clearly a goblin because of the the the triangular face.

[01:25:45]>> Okay, I can buy that.

[01:25:47]>> Right. Because it's got the same >> shape of head. It's a it's a larger size, but it's the same shape of head as the rest of them.

[01:25:54]>> Um >> Yeah. And and there's also the simple fact that the goblins would have been terrified of the ball rug.

[01:26:00]>> Yes. Yes.

[01:26:02]Um so yeah, Andrew, I agree that he would either be drawn the bow would either be drawn in black or he'd be drawn in like orange and yellow. um or both, but he wouldn't just look like a giant king goblin, which is what this guy looks like.

[01:26:26]So, and when the Balro chased the dwarves out of Kazad Doom, there was no like orc chieftain.

[01:26:45]>> It was just the B We don't even know if he worked with the orcs at that time.

[01:26:54]>> And it's definitely chasing out of Moria because of the trees on the left hand side, >> right? The dwarves are running.

[01:27:05]I love the the little dwarves that are crawling on hands and knees down here in their desire to escape. There's a whole bunch of crawling dwarves which are >> adorable, right?

[01:27:18]>> Yeah.

[01:27:20]>> See, Andrew, I was thinking that, too.

[01:27:22]That was the first thing I was thinking like maybe this is the the the orcs invading East Gate and this is like Balin's company. But yeah, the trees are wrong. That's exactly that's what I was notice when I was noticing the trees there. Um, the orcs are definitely from inside Moria chasing the dwarves out.

[01:27:48]Yes, exactly, Nancy. There's the one dwarf with the sword sticking out its back. One of the crawling dwarves.

[01:28:00]Love the the little >> dwarf with his hands up and the arrow stuck in him here.

[01:28:08]>> Yeah. I mean, it does feel to me as if this is orc propaganda saying, "Hey, we chased these the the dwarves out of here. We took their spot." Um, but it it does beg the question how they got in.

[01:28:22]Um, I can't necessarily believe that the east gate and the west gate were the only two ways in and out of Moria. There have to be other mountain passages.

[01:28:33]Maybe the dorms simply didn't know yet.

[01:28:38]Yeah, I agree.

[01:28:40]But who what this incident is, what this moment is, I mean there's a limited number of moments it could be as an bazar battle with five armies.

[01:29:04]Um, I mean it's not the battle of firearm, but again like I'm just like I'm trying to list the grand total of incidents that could be being depicted here.

[01:29:12]>> Well, as a Nobles was like the sixth war of the dwarves and orcs. So this could have been wars one through five.

[01:29:19]>> Yeah, it is possible.

[01:29:31]I don't know. In part, I'm being influenced by my memory of other goblin paintings elsewhere.

[01:29:41]>> All of which were clearly recognizable moments from the stories.

[01:29:46]>> Oh, yeah.

[01:29:47]>> So, I'm inclined to guess that they that the goblins here are depicting a specific even if it's a slanted version of it.

[01:30:02]Maybe it's Maybe it is >> Goblin fanfic.

[01:30:09]>> Yeah. Like revisionist history.

[01:30:14]>> Because I don't know. I don't know. What what's one of the things that's fascinating to me is the fact that on the left hand side like we're normally we're used to orienting ourselves where north is up, south is down.

[01:30:31]>> And so it kind of throws us off. It's like well the trees are on the west side but wait a minute they didn't have those trees on the west side.

[01:30:38]>> What what's going on here?

[01:30:42]>> So I agree. Do the do the orcs or goblins not know directions or do they just have their own separate method for determining distance or do they just not think northsoutheast west the way that we think of up?

[01:30:57]>> Yeah, I mean you're right. If this is east gate, then south is up on this picture, which you know, who knows? Maybe that's how dwarfs think, but or sorry, I mean goblins think.

[01:31:19]>> Rowan said that's a nice point. Yeah, they're orienting south to Mordor. That like >> if you if you put south at the top, then Mordor is at the top of the map. Kind of like Angband is at the top of the map in the north. If you have a north map, northtop map in of Bolyrian. Um, >> it'd be interesting if they saw the geode in Moriel that the dwarves made with a map of a middle earth on it and it clearly Well, it doesn't have north, but it has the directions of the overall map and the goblins would have had some knowledge of what direction was up.

[01:32:03]>> Yeah. Well, but what you put up in a map is still a matter of convention.

[01:32:07]I mean, we've been putting north at the top of maps for so long that we forget there are any other ways to do it, but there were lots of other ways to do it.

[01:32:16]I mean, in the Middle Ages, east is at the top of all the maps in the Middle Ages. Um, they never put north at the top.

[01:32:27]Um, yeah.

[01:32:33]No, the directions don't bother me so much because I'm not necessarily even thinking there's necessarily a a it's necessarily a north south because although the cross-section of the gates kind of makes it look like a top- down map. Um it's not really map. It's more, you know, pictorial than map-like really. So it's not precisely a map. Um, no. My biggest question, who is the giant orc?

[01:33:10]If it isn't AOG, then who? And how could it be AOG? Unless it's just a a fantasy of like imagining that AOG won or something. I mean, and that just seems weird. I feel like I'm missing something.

[01:33:34]Yeah, Nancy, I agree. There are those two other very large orcs. The one just to the bottom right of the big the big the king orc and the one to the top left of the king orc.

[01:33:54]And it certainly could be one of them could be bulg if one of them is AOG. Um, yeah. I'm just like I'm trying to think of moments when the dwarves ran fleeing away in front of a triumphant army of goblins. And there's not a long list of those.

[01:34:40]The other thing that I the only other thing that I can imagine is what if this is a could the orcs believe that they drove drove the dwarves out of Kazadoom.

[01:35:11]>> Possibly. Uh if the Balro is involved and they're too terrified of the Balro, um they could probably want to prop themselves up in their own histories. I mean, we don't know a lot about orc histories from themselves or what they say has happened to them or Yeah.

[01:35:30]>> or whatnot.

[01:35:31]>> Yeah. Well, that that's what I'm thinking. like if they, you know, it's kind of a pay no attention to the bow in the in the corner kind of situation, but like >> um if they have been ruling, you know, the orcs have been running rampant around Moria for a long time and they view it as their own kingdom.

[01:35:59]Hence the threepronged crown on the orc king in this picture.

[01:36:07]>> And they know that dwarves built it.

[01:36:10]They know this is the former home of the dwarves, but now they control it. So is this a kind of mythic, you know, mythologized reconstruction in their own probably inaccurate history.

[01:36:29]of yes, we drove we the dwarves built this great place, but we live here now.

[01:36:35]It's ours because we conquered it because we drove out the dwarves.

[01:36:41]And so here's our our mythic story. Uh here's our myth of the dwarves fleeing before the goblins and leaving Moria to its rightful rulers, the goblins.

[01:36:54]And we're just gonna kind of ignore the um the Brog because he doesn't come out much anyway, so it's fine.

[01:37:04]>> Yeah. I mean, they would want to take the glory for themselves. Um >> Yeah, Aronos. Exactly. It's like a It's like a mythic version of the dwarves used to live here, but we kicked them out with fire and pain. Yes. That would be the story they would tell themselves.

[01:37:20]the story the that's that's their myth for how they how the orcs came to rule Moria.

[01:37:32]I could believe that. in which case the orc king isn't necessarily I mean there may be a myth of the great king of old that we don't know about um but it wouldn't be one that we would know about because this is a a this this would be an orc myth then the myth of the purging of Moria of dwarves and we killed their King Duran and drove them out.

[01:38:13]I just noticed the dwarf that's right next to the foremost goblin. Has he been dismembered?

[01:38:21]Are those lines his limbs that have been cut off?

[01:38:27]>> Cuz he looks like BB-8 tilted on his side.

[01:38:29]>> Yes, that dwarf conspicuously. That dwarf stick figure con conspicuously has no limbs attached to him and there are four little dashes around. I think that goblin has chopped off the arms and legs of that dwarf stick figure.

[01:38:47]Oh man, >> there's one dwarf who's been shot in the butt with an arrow.

[01:38:52]>> Yeah. Yeah, I did not notice that at first. Holy cow. Um, yeah, Andrew, I agree. There should be a there should be a there should be an MA rating uh above this picture.

[01:39:12]>> I mean, it's stick figures, you know, so it's not as bad as it could be.

[01:39:17]>> There's no blood.

[01:39:21]>> I think that is I think it's a dismembered dwarf. Wow.

[01:39:30]Looks like that goblin took his axe and then chopped the dude up with >> Yeah, because he's got a big axe. Also, notice the axes of the dwarves are all tiny.

[01:39:41]>> Like, look at this. Look at the tiny little axe of of the king, the dwarf king.

[01:39:48]I mean, it's like >> powerful. It's this. I mean, it looks like a toy compared to like the big huge axe of the dismembering goblin here.

[01:40:03]Wow.

[01:40:06]Wow. This is great. These stick figures are so expressive. Um, >> the art team really did a bangup job on that.

[01:40:13]>> Oh, it's it's phenomenal.

[01:40:16]It's phenomenal. I even like I I like the the ones that are again the ones crawling on hands and knees. The the little dwarf stick figure with his hands up on his head like no.

[01:40:27]Um yeah. Yeah.

[01:40:31]>> There's one on the far left near the trees. Looks like he's got two arrows sticking out of his butt.

[01:40:37]>> Oh yes, right there. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:40:43]>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Athor was just noticing that same one.

[01:40:48]Yeah. Amazing. Um well, how wonderful these these goblin pictograms. And of course, this is a um this is a Father Christmas letters reference also. I just I love this. what LoRo has done here and and again in other places where we can see goblin art um it's uh in the father Christmas letters in one of the years I never remember which year um the they he talk they they go to caves and they're cave paintings and goblin cave paintings um where you can see stick figures and there's like runes and stuff Um, so the association between goblins and pictographs on cave walls is a father Christmas letters thing which the Lo team has sort of taken and incorporated uh into the game and it's fas because apart from their sigils on their on their um their banners there's almost no other place where we see pictorial art by the goblins. But this is really good pictorial art by the goblins. I >> It makes more sense than the golem pictorial art in uh Yes.

[01:42:22]>> in Goblin Town.

[01:42:24]>> Yeah, the goblin >> that one makes no sense at all to me.

[01:42:26]>> Well, it's it's different. It's different.

[01:42:29]>> It is definitely different.

[01:42:31]>> Yeah. That's like to me that that kind of breaks me out of the immersion because a Gollum wouldn't make it himself because he wouldn't want to reveal his precious to the to the you know reveal his existence.

[01:42:42]>> Yeah.

[01:42:42]>> And b the orcs wouldn't be afraid of him because they would never see him. So they wouldn't know about either.

[01:42:47]>> I don't know. I kind of like the idea and there is a hint in the text that the orcs at least suspect that there's some monster down there.

[01:42:57]um even though they don't know who he is or what he is. So the idea of like again a sort of mythologized Gollum is sort of fun.

[01:43:08]>> Oh yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

[01:43:10]The specific nature of that particular art to me.

[01:43:19]>> Oh, I think we lost you there.

[01:43:23]>> Can you hear me now?

[01:43:24]>> I got you. Yeah.

[01:43:25]>> Okay. Yeah. It it just it felt more like a game convention rather than a in world >> right >> thing. So I can see that too much for that.

[01:43:37]>> I don't know if we'll see others.

[01:43:39]There's Are there any other paintings in this?

[01:43:40]>> I believe there might be another one in here somewhere.

[01:43:42]>> All right. Well, we'll see if we can look around. Is this Yeah, we need to We'll continue through here next time.

[01:43:50]>> Yeah, >> it's getting late. We spent a long time looking at pictographs which are well worth it. Um, >> indeed.

[01:43:56]>> But, uh, yeah. Oh, and by the way, I meant to say the flames suggest that is that would be consistent with this being the expulsion of the dwarves from because like the balro isn't depicted, but there's fire at least, right? Which sort of >> points to the power of the balro being involved in some way, even if only indirectly. Um, so I think that that that's consistent with our theory about this. I also love how far away you can see this. Like it's like they've made it with luminescent chalk or whatever.

[01:44:34]>> Yeah, they use their reflective paint very well.

[01:44:37]>> Yeah, exactly. It glows. Um, yeah. Anyway, okay, let us return down this direction next time. Um, >> we will see what continues to happen and if we find any more pictographs and then we'll continue on with the Silverine loads. All right, thanks everybody for joining us and we'll see you guys next week as we continue to go deeper below the deep descent.

[01:45:08]Thanks everybody.

[01:45:10]Bye now.

[01:45:12]>> Bye.