The significant financial gap between Premier League clubs and other European teams in competitions like the Europa League creates an unfair advantage, as clubs like Aston Villa (revenue: 450 million euros) can field stronger squads compared to teams like Freiburg (revenue: 162.8 million euros), undermining the original purpose of these competitions to democratize European glory for clubs outside the top tier.
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>> The S Word featuring Will Gavin and Master Test Fatiha and a squad of big name contributors. The S Word from talkSPORT.
A very good afternoon and welcome to The S Word from talkSPORT. The talkSPORT S Word YouTube channel. I'm Will Gavin, Master Test Fatiha alongside me. And Aston Villa are the champions of Europe.
Looky, looky here who decided to come back in the studio after a two-day hiatus.
>> Yeah, after your news became yesterday's fish and chip wrapping or whatever it is that they say, we're back, baby. I'm back and we're here to talk all about Aston Villa Oh, yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure.
Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure.
Sure. Sure.
>> Unai Emery, five-time champion. Unai Emery, if Arsenal kept him, they'd have won a title sooner. That's what I'm saying. We are talking all about Villa today cuz that is the big story in town.
>> They even admitted it already and taking jabs and shots. I missed you, buddy.
Yeah, you too.
>> [laughter] >> You too. We have got a cracking show coming up for you today on The S Word because we will be talking all about Aston Villa's triumph out in Istanbul.
West Ham fans have called off planned board protests ahead of their final game of the season. Dan Lawless will join us from West Ham Way TV. Brian T. Smith is here to talk US of the Gardens, Pablo Maurer on this wild story that the MLS is going to try and change the way that football works.
Once again, Americans innovating the game, not getting any credit for it, but coming up with brilliant ideas as they are [music] today.
And we'll have the former USMNT midfielder Stu Holden on the show. All coming up here on The S Word.
>> [music] >> Nice to be back.
It's great to have you back. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Yeah, you guys held it down the last days. Max Rushden did a sensational job.
>> Absolutely no issue with that whatsoever, but I'm back in the house ready to talk about all the things you said wrong in the last two days. And uh You've [laughter] been taking notes? Oh, extensive notes.
>> Good. Uh You're more informed now. You feel better. Yeah, more [laughter] prepared. Yeah, more prepared prepared than ever to take you down. Uh I don't mean that, but I look, we we do have Yes, you do. genuinely a great show ahead of us. Also, in addition to all that other stuff, I'm going to pick my England squad ahead of tomorrow morning's announcement. 9:30, 9:45, I believe, tomorrow morning England will announce their squad for the 2026 World Cup. It comes off the back of Germany being announced in the last 24 hours. We obviously had that crazy Brazil announcement this week. So, I'll do my England squad, the 26 I'd like to see taken to the World Cup. We'll debate and discuss that ahead of tomorrow's announcement, plus all these brilliant guests to come on. But, let's start off with what a night it was for Aston Villa in Istanbul, making light work of Freiburg as who handed Unai Emery a fifth, yes, fifth European title, joining Trapattoni, Carlo Ancelotti, and Jose Mourinho. He had three with Sevilla. He had one with Villarreal. And now, Aston Villa are the champions of Europe.
One of the biggest nights in Aston Villa's proud history. Of course, my dream when I arrived here was play Europe, play for trophies.
>> Right-footed ball flicks across the edge of the PENALTY AREA. TIELEMANS!
>> [screaming] >> WHAT A GOAL!
HUGE GOAL ON THE NIGHT that is for Villa. This group of players now, Champions League football next season.
This manager, he won't just be happy with one trophy.
>> TIELEMANS, MCGINN, BUENDíA!
>> [screaming] [cheering] >> OH, STARLING GRAY PUTTING THEIR NAME ON THE TROPHY NOW! THE campaign we did [music] this this season in Europa League, it was fantastic.
>> What a time to get that second one as well. Stunning, stunning end to the half for Villa. And uh achieving this one is uh something make us uh so so happy, so proud of of of everything we are [music] working.
>> there's there's Villa fans here tonight, Jim, who have never seen their team win a trophy. Well, that all changes right right here. side of the penalty AREA.
LOW BALL IN.
GOAL NUMBER [cheering] THREE!
MORGAN ROGERS! WHAT A PERFORMANCE! WHAT A MANAGER! WHAT A SUPPORT! JOHN MCGINN has taken the cup and lifted it into the Turkish night. And the name on the trophy is Aston Villa.
30 years since their last major trophy.
44 years since they were the champions of Europe. Aston Villa have returned to the mountain [music] top. And just seven years since they were languishing in mid-table in the Championship. Unai Emery claims a fifth European title.
Well, only six years himself after being cast out of North London. Delighted to say the Massa's taxi and now has to admit that Unai Emery is with the best manager in the Premier League.
The best manager in the Premier League?
Weren't he trying to leave the Premier League two weeks ago?
>> [laughter] >> No, I I I I'm having a bit of fun with you, but Unai Emery, he's very difficult with We will get into the wider implications of the Europa League and the Conference League cuz there are huge conversations to be had about the English dominance in those leagues over the past three, four years. But, first and foremost, what a night for those Villa fans. You talked so eloquently and brilliantly about what it was like as an Arsenal fan to be on the streets of North London.
Istanbul was claret and blue last night.
And for those fans who traveled, for those fans who were loving it on the streets of Birmingham, who are going to be at the parade today, what a night for those fans beyond anything else. An incredible night. And I've been fortunate enough to know quite a bit of Villa fans, for better or worse.
They they >> [laughter] >> They They definitely remind you of the the Buendía goal at the death against Arsenal, but again, the the talent and the quality and their ability to make the most of what was a disappointing end to last season when they thought they could have qualified for Champions League and had an unfortunate refereeing error go against them that probably costed them the chance to play in Champions League this season.
But, to go through the Europa League to to finish the season capping it off with a European trophy and qualifying for Champions League on top of that, it it shows the beautiful redemption arc of this entire story where it did not just end on that final match day last year.
Uh it it came with the moment that they will now cherish for the rest of their lives with their friends and their family members and seeing all of my friends, um you know, I've I've done a lot of work with uh Whisper Productions on some e-sports stuff with Madden and um my producer there, Carrie, is his name, big big big big Villa fan.
When the Villa beat Arsenal, we happen to have doing we were doing a shoot the next week.
>> Mhm.
And all I kept hearing in my voice like, all right, master, 5 minutes till the show starts up the Villa. Up the Villa.
UP THE VILLA. UP THE VILLA. DIEGO!
DIEGO! AND YOU KNOW, SEEING him posting and and coming to tears and mostly soaking it all in, um I think that's what it's all about.
>> So, I'm I'm really happy for them. I'm really happy for Villa fans. I'm glad they get to enjoy and experience this moment because it's been a long time coming. Well, I went to university in Leicester, and my first day turning up in halls, I walked in and I walked into the kitchen, and I was met with and I cannot exaggerate enough here, a wall of Brummie. Just There were eight or nine people in my kitchen, parents and children, and guys my age, and all of them had these thick thick Brummie accents, and all of them were Villa fans. And throughout university, I lived with three or four Villa fans the entire time I was there. I had no connection to the club whatsoever prior to that, but it did build a massive soft spot for me for them. And they are a team who I remember watching them with Steve Bruce in the Championship at Fulham when they had that late playoff push. Uh I remember watching that Dean Smith team that managed to get from mid-table to that late playoff push to going and winning that those playoffs. And yeah, I think Dean Smith did a brilliant job with that team, but Unai Emery takes over 4 years ago. And of that squad that started last night, seven of the 11 were on that team that were facing relegation when Unai Emery took over. And you just look at what he's managed to achieve over those past four, five years now at Aston Villa.
Between, you know, finishing seventh, fourth, sixth, and now likely top four again, fifth at worst, depending on just how much they party between now and that game on Sunday. I hope they pray tonight.
>> [laughter] >> Real bold.
They bought them Champions League football. They nearly knocked PSG out of the Champions League. That can't be ignored. They get to the semi-finals of the Conference League and now win a Europa League. Unai Emery, by the way, has coached 31 Europa League knockout ties in the last 13 years and won 30 of them. Like, he knows how to win in this competition and I thought we'll debate the gulf between the English teams and the teams they face shortly, but he set that team up perfectly last night. Freiburg were not there on merit. This kind of pat on the head nonsense that people want to give them and say, you know, it was a fairy tale they were there. They don't have the money. They were a good football team who press, who work incredibly hard, who have good direct attacking talent. Except he's wizards. Yeah, they they absolutely deserve to be there.
Unai Emery, he might not be the sexiest football in the world. The goals were brilliant, of course, but the way he set up the midfield, the way he had Victor Lindelof playing in that kind of holding role and then dropping into the back three so that the full backs could push forward and that really pinned Freiburg back.
Like, they just their whole approach to the game was just absolutely spot on.
And I have to apologize for questioning his approach a few weeks ago when they faced Tottenham and me saying like, you can focus all on the Europa League as much as you want, but you need a team who are in form and who Apparently not.
Unai Emery knew what he was doing. He set them up perfectly last night and they were massively deserving winners.
Is that a We're not even 10 minutes in and am I hearing master you're right? Is that Is that Is that Is that what we come to here? There's plenty of master you wrong coming up there.
>> [laughter] >> You're absolutely right about Unai Emery and I think it's more of a an assessment of Spanish managers truth be told. We've seen it time and time again. La Liga has been tremendous in these kind of cup competitions and tournaments being able to effectively come up with a brilliant strategy over two leg fixtures or a one off final in these tournaments and that's why time and time again La Liga has done a tremendous tremendous amount of success in in European football but also in in Europa League as well. Allow me to hand you some flowers in this moment because we won't mention Arsenal a huge amount in this show but the sensational achievement for Mikel Arteta this weekend. Unai Emery goes and wins the Europa League last night. And Andoni Iraola gets his team into the into the Europe for the first time in their history. They're all from within 30 miles of one another in the Basque Country. Like that is a footballing factory being born there in North Spain and incredible to see that kind of coaching tree almost that is being sprouted out to use that Americanism and yeah I mean You got Xabi Alonso in there as well. He comes from that area in Basque Country as well. They I've been up there before. I've seen what this sport means to them and how they will fine comb through every single detail possible and you can see it in the way that Unai Emery leads his team.
He's been criticized in the past for being too calculated providing too much information for his players and over complicating the game.
But that is the way that Basque Country views it. Arteta does the same thing.
Areola you always you can maybe you can question if it's too much information but you can never question that they are not prepared for the situation and I think that's what you get when you bring on a a manager from the Basque Country that they will always make sure that they are not you may be able to be more physical with them you may be able to be faster than but you will not be able to be you will not be able to outsmart them throughout a 90 minute fixture and it's it's brilliant to see. And as much as you know, Emery set them up brilliantly tactically, let's give a shout out to some of those players on the field because and again, okay, I second master you were right in a short connection of time. Emi Buendía is a guy who 12 months ago was on the outskirts of this squad, was looking to move on. He was looking for a transfer, they were looking to sell him and he stayed and he fought for his place and I've been a a guy who's knocked Emi Buendía. I think that in the wrong system, which I think he was playing in previously, he is a little too slow, he is not direct enough, but last night he was perfect for how they were set up. He scored huge goals this season against some absolutely massive teams in massive massive games and he was brilliant again last night. Not just the goal, but absolutely instrumental in what they did.
Morgan Rogers you could argue should be starting the first game for England in the World Cup. He's been that good in the big games. I know he had a lull for a few weeks. Um, John McGinn, I mean >> That's your boy. That is you [clears throat] you love you some John McGinn.
>> You want to talk about a guy that went down with them into the Championship. He cost them 2.5 million pounds. He stayed with them in the Championship. He captained this team. He brought them back up and now he gets to be the guy to hold aloft a Europa League trophy. I mean, yeah, John McGinn, they're talking about build a statue to Unai Emery.
Build a statue to John McGinn OUTSIDE VILLA PARK.
>> [laughter] >> THAT MAN, HE FORGET JOHN TERRY, CAPTAIN, LEADER, LEGEND. That's John McGinn for this Villa team. Unbelievable from him.
Uh, and Pau Torres was sensational last night. Ezri Konsa was just as solid as a rock. I mean, Ollie Watkins is a guy who leads the line so well and sets up perfectly in the formation. I just thought they were across the board brilliant.
>> talked a lot about Youri Tielemans and Buendía and how different this team looks when they're not in the lineup and the injuries that they had and you saw it immediately in that first half, Tielemans scoring the goal, which was a brilliant goal that he scored and then we thought that would be perhaps the best goal that we would see of the night and then Buendía It's scores a curler.
That was so beautiful, wasn't it? Right before halftime. And at that point you kind of figure again, not to write Freiburg off. I did my best to give them every single chance and opportunity to become the David of this Goliath situation, but once Buendía scored right before halftime we knew this was over.
We knew this was over.
And I I want to say we don't, but you like it did feel it with the second goal. And by the way, is there almost nothing more beautiful in football?
Uh [snorts] and maybe only second to a really great headed goal. Like I love when a player rises up and is like a good 3 ft above everyone else. I mean, let's give it out to the Villa set piece coach and their set pieces last night, sensational stuff. It just turns out that a set piece coach is what your team needed the whole time. Um there's something beautiful about beautiful headed goal, but when somebody gets that little moment of space and you see it opens out in front of them and they curl that effort and it goes Not just does it go beyond the reach of the keeper, but does that thing where it hits the side netting and curls around the inside of the goal because it's so beautifully placed. Oh, honestly though, when that goes in I I'm not, you know, directly connected to Aston Villa in any way, shape or form. I want to see the English teams other than Arsenal do well in Europe, but man, that was a thing of just absolute beauty. It it is it is beautiful.
However however Why are you bringing the high down? I mean, I come in here yesterday and done this to Arsenal. Why have I got I I mean, you were gone for 2 days and that you know, the 48-hour disappearance.
>> [laughter] >> I I didn't think you were going to come back. And I'm not here to pour cold water on Aston Villa. Congratulations to their fans. I'm very happy for them.
Congratulations to the club, the organization.
>> Feels like I'm hearing a bucket filling up with cold water as he speaks.
>> They were very deserving of being Europa League champions.
But UEFA has a Premier League problem >> [clears throat] >> with the Europa League and the Conference League. And the fact of the matter is there is way too much money in terms of discrepancy from the clubs that qualify for Europa League compared to the teams that are from the Premier League and are not from the Premier League. To use this as an example, Aston Villa is in Deloitte's top 20 in terms of revenue.
Their revenue is 450 million euros.
>> You love Deloitte's revenue my thing, don't you?
>> Listen, everyone keeps talking about the game has gone financial all this stuff.
>> something to be excited about cuz Arsenal were number one on that list.
>> They were. Now you're shooting down Villa cuz they're top 20. It's different when you got a bunch of billionaires in the Premier League compared to what you're facing in the Europa League, which the whole purpose of the Europa League and even the Conference League in its fourth season was to democratize the opportunities for European glory to be passed around to other clubs and it wouldn't be the same billionaire clubs competing in the Champions League.
However, we're continuously seeing now these billionaire clubs infiltrating in Europa League and Conference League and it's creating a sizable disadvantage where you might as well, before the tournament even starts, just go ahead and hand the trophy to Villa. Or go ahead and hand the trophy to Crystal Palace. Make the final The level of disrespect there is astonishing.
>> Make the final Forest versus Villa because at that point you're just >> All the talk about what European football does to Premier League teams when they join it, when they don't have the depth of squads. Like this idea that >> They don't have the depth of squads.
>> Just Just cuz Just cuz they've gotten lots of money because they're in the Premier League, they still have to go under PSR rules, soon to be ECR rules.
They still have to hit financial fair play. They make more money. Like as it's Like Villa Villa Aston Villa last summer spent 37 million euros. Freiburg spent 32 million euros. Like that's not a that is not a disparate situation. And they have Yes, they built a >> Freiburg's revenue is 162.8 million euros. That is 36% of what Villa makes Villa makes. So the difference is there's a wide gap. When you're talking about PSR spending 85% of the revenue and the money you bring in, they're already at a significant disadvantage because the Premier League makes so much money from international TV rights that it dwarfs what some leagues' champions make for domestically where they play.
>> So the opportunity for these teams that have had 30 years in the doldrums that have that were in the second tier just 7 years ago that you know, we want to talk about and celebrate their fans and talk about what great moment it is for them.
But their opportunity is too great because they happen to be in the richest league. They are not they are the best four, fifth, sixth biggest team in the Premier League and realistically they have been above their skis for the last three or four years thanks to what Unai Emery has done there. This is them when Chelsea won the Conference League I understand that is a joke and then maybe needs to be some kind of you can't qualify for the Conference League if you've been in the Champions League in the last two years or whatever that looks like. Like there can be an idea >> Villa is 14th in revenue in Europe.
>> But that doesn't This is not a fair This is not a fair They are not David. They are Goliath. But they still >> Goliath. But they are David compared to what they have to compete with waiting in the wings.
>> different competition.
>> And they are still a team who have not seen a trophy for 30 years and it completely denigrates what they've managed to achieve, what those players on the field have managed to do. So many of them involved in a relegation battle only four years ago and they've gone out and they've won a huge trophy and now I was saying, "Yeah, but it wasn't fair because they played against the big of the group stage in a Swiss model because they go in Thursdays during the group stage rotating seven or eight players.
>> a UEFA problem. What like it's the ref As an American, as someone who you know, capitalism, America, like as the teams that earn the most money should have the chance to do it.
>> have salary caps. We also have >> that's because you've got self-contained leagues with no relegation and no like Here's my thing. UEFA if if you are listening, which I'm sure you are, there's there's two things I would do to help address this because at the end of the day the ratings now with the Swiss model have tanked for the Europa League and Conference League. So you're not getting better viewership as a result of it and you're pretty much shoehorning in at least one Premier League team into the final, potentially two as we saw last year Yeah, but okay, your annoyance now is a Premier League team getting shoehorned in but for years what we were shoehorning into a Europa League final was a team that dropped out of the Champions League. I'd much rather Freiburg or Rayo Vallecano get to a final and get beat by a Premier League team than we just see two teams who fell out of the group stage of the Champions League, who didn't even want to be in that competition, who like And and that's the Swiss model's fine. I'm That's a huge problem with the Champions League because these big teams are not playing in the competition. Because these big teams >> This is how you solve it. This is how you solve the problem.
There needs to be a wage cap. Because the discrepancy in the wages of what Villa is able to field out there compared to what Freiburg is able to field out there is completely disproportionate. And for a country that was literally anti-super league has become the super league of Europe. And other countries and other nations need to step up and speak about this because you are not going to see any other European glory outside of England in Europa or Conference League moving forward unless you have a wage cap that allows a multiple of whatever the average median wages or salaries or even the value of clubs and squads is. If you're going to For instance, last year, Chelsea, Cole Palmer, didn't play at all the group stage. All of a sudden he wants to show up in the knockout stage.
Wasn't even on the roster.
If Cole Palmer is not on the roster to start off with, he cannot participate in the knockouts.
>> hate that. All right, I don't hate that at all. But I think overall, unless you can put a wage cap in domestically as well, you're never going to have teams who will buy into that because you are always going to be focused first and foremost on being competitive in the Premier League because of the revenue, because of the money that it brings in.
And therefore, I think all you're doing is taking teams which are big, yeah, who you don't think are taking money in the domestic leagues, who are going to be going through to the latter stages, who are amongst the biggest teams in Europe, are going to take the competitions even less seriously if they're told, "Oh, by the way, if you want to play in the Champions League, you have to play from the beginning."
>> And you're going to play a bunch of young players who are going to balance it out.
>> have to go travel to I don't know, to to Poland. So they don't have to go from Thursday to Sunday. You don't think these other clubs are all competing on the same fronts domestically Thursday and Sunday trying to compete in their leagues as well? Meanwhile, they're doing this with wages of what, 20 million euros? Crystal Palace a great example. They spent 150 million euros this year bringing in players. You know how much Real spent?
7 million euros.
>> So how are you managing 7 million euros.
And they're trying to compete and making sure that they can be competitive in La Liga while also making it to the Conference League final. So, how are you meant to balance that though? Because you're saying to me, "Well, we want you to have a wage cap or maybe it ends up being like a Spanish cap or whatever ends However that looks, all you're going to end up with is Premier League teams taking even less seriously >> They already don't. That's my point.
They don't.
Crystal Palace didn't even finish top eight. Crystal Palace didn't even finish top eight. So, now you're saying that all those fans who have had those great moments, who want their clubs to go further in it, now we're going to put things in place which are going to stop your club from actually taking it in any way seriously. You'll just drop out in the group stages because They don't care about the Premier League to be dominant.
Freiburg deserved every opportunity as well to have European glory, no different than this. for so, so many years.
>> every every opportunity for European glory, but they probably will not get it cuz they're facing a behemoth in Crystal Palace. La Liga was A behemoth in Crystal Palace? It's just such a mispainting of what that what that team is. It's the sixth biggest club in London. It's in a smallest stadium in London.
>> biggest club in London would be the biggest club outside of London if not considering three or four the PSG's, the Bayern Munich's, the the Barcelona's and the Real Madrid's.
>> on earth are you going to like manage to make this make sense versus the Champions League? Because the fact is the Champions League doesn't have a whole different issue.
>> The Champions League doesn't have a whole different issue cuz La Liga was so dominant for so long in Europe because in the Champions League Real Madrid, Barcelona, whoever it was, faced no financial sanctions in Europe.
>> Champions League is a whole different issue. And and then but in the lower divisions, they were spending the money, they were having the opportunities, they were Now, the Premier League over the past five to 10 years, that money has been exponential. It's like worse than the NFL at this point.
But I just don't think that teams should be punished for being in the most for having to spend that money. And the idea Wage other clubs should not be punished for facing Goliath. Unless you can put wage caps across the board, the money that's from TV is there anyway. That money I want going into the pockets of players. I don't want that going into the pockets of the billionaires who are running the clubs. I want players on the pitch to be paid what they deserve to be paid. And therefore, we're going to end up finding that if you put wage caps in place, suddenly teams are having to decide, "Well, we can't afford to pay you in line with what other people are doing."
>> to play a Cole Palmer, bring in the academy guys who are already rotating in because you you don't want Cole Palmer traveling on a Thursday to Uzbekistan.
You think those teams are already hamstrung by being in the European competitions. This is going to hamstring them tenfold over. No, it won't. They're already They're already They're just going to have to They're already just going to have to make the decision >> show up at the last minute and get an A on the group project. That's all they're doing.
>> Chelsea Chelsea did that. Villa don't do that. Palace don't do that.
>> Villa did rotate.
>> YEAH, BUT PALACE PALACE PALACE DID ROTATE.
>> CONFERENCE League is a whole different conversation. I think because that is a different competition with a different level of quality and from Palace's perspective, you're going to play Sligo, which is a bunch of amateur players who don't play football full-time, who have like that's tough, right?
>> That was the point of the Conference League. Villa are not going to face Villa are going to face big European nations in both the group stages and and they are playing big-name players in there. They have a squad for a reason and yes, they are rotating that squad, but I don't think they should be punished for that. I don't think they should be punished for that with a wage cap. I don't think they should be punished for that. The minimum wage is going to be different than what it is in the Premier League. It's going to be different than what it is in the Premier League.
>> in the Premier League, but not in the group stages of the Europa League, now you can't play him in the final. That's unfair on Buendía. They're already doing it. They're already doing it, though.
They're already doing it. They're not playing their top players in the group stage cuz they know because of the Swiss model, it doesn't matter if they finish top eight or if they make it to the playoff, they're still going to make a deep run in Europa League competition It is unfair on UEFA. Problem, a wage cap hurts the teams, not you not not helps UEFA. It hurts the teams.
>> absolutely will help. The The whole point was to democratize the opportunity for European glory and right now, it's all going to England. So, what's the point of that? All right, sorry. The other side of the glass sounds getting angry at me and understandably so. We should have gotten into that debate earlier because it was good. I mean, you wanted to praise [laughter] Villa for 10 minutes. Yeah, and they deserve it.
Aston Villa, champions of Europe, Europa League champions. Unai Emery, build a statue for him outside Villa Park. They deserve it. Up the Villa. Up the Villa.
Come on and we will continue to debate this and discuss this, but up next, West Ham, a team who are facing potentially dropping out of the Premier League this year. Up next on the S word. The S word with Will Gavin and Micky Hazard and Jason Cundy from talkSPORT.
>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> From kickoff to the full-time whistle, don't say the S word.
Say the F word, football. The S word from talkSPORT.
Let me compose myself now.
Nothing to compose yourself about.
You're fine. We'll get into it. Keep getting into it. Let us know your thoughts at talksport S word.
>> Please. On YouTube, on Twitter, on X, wherever you find us and let us know your thoughts on the English dominance in the Europa League and the Conference League. Does UEFA need to do something to battle back? Should they be putting some kind of wage cap in place? Should there be some enforced squads to stop teams from rotating so heavily in the group stages?
>> League teams, maybe. Let us know your thoughts. I mean, the Okay, no, no. Stop it. We have other topics to get on to, and we have guests to talk to, and I Yeah, we'll just keep going. We could just be here for 2 hours debating this topic, of course. Thanks, buddy.
Appreciate it. Still to come on the show, former USMNT midfielder Stu Holden will join us, Brian T. Smith as well, plus Pablo Maurer on this idea that MLS want to introduce a stop clock into the way that football is timed. But, right now, a leading West Ham fan group has announced a major decision on plans for their latest protest for the final day crunch clash with Leeds United. As many predicted, the Premier League relegation battle has gone down to the final day.
West Ham know what needs to happen to survive, and they have called off this protest. I'm delighted to say joining us now from West Ham Fan TV is the great Dan Lawless. Dan, how are you doing, sir?
Yeah, not not too bad, not too bad. Just stressing every day ahead of this game on Sunday, you know, that's all I can think about. So, I just can't wait to get it over with, to be honest.
Get it over with. That's Yeah, football should be bringing joy, but I understand where you are right now. And then, look, I also understand why West Ham fans are protesting. I totally understand why there are issues with the club. So, for a layman who maybe doesn't know the history, why protest, and why call off the protest this weekend?
So, okay, we'll start with why protest.
I'll try and summarize it as quickly as I can, because there's so many reasons, but it's it comes down to the ownership who are responsible for the mess that we're in. You know, we're looking at potential relegation after giving up our historic home, a place that we loved, Upton Park, to move to a stadium that we don't love, an athletic stadium that's not purpose-built for football that we rent in order to apparently compete with the Arsenals and the Chelsea's and to play Champions League football. You know, something that a team like Bournemouth are potentially on the cusp of in a 11,000 seater stadium. We told we had to move to this stadium, this London stadium to compete and now we're facing relegation. Just poor decision after poor decision, hiring the wrong managers, penny-pinching, scattergun approaches in transfer windows has led us to the mess we're in and we will not go anywhere until that ownership is changed. Why I stopped the protest on Sunday because we're put in a situation, unfortunately, where we have to focus on getting behind the team to get us out of that mess because relegation could be absolutely disastrous for this club financially and we have to just do our part and put our problems aside for now, but it's not over for sure. The process will continue.
Um, sounds like a a lot of conflicting emotions that you're dealing with right now. And is everyone on board with canceling this protest? Is everyone unified in the idea of getting behind this team or is it still a lot to ask for some West Ham fans considering everything they've gone through?
I think it's always going to be a hard ask. I think there is [snorts] a lot of anger and there's a lot of appetite for venting against this ownership. This is the last game of the season. This going to be the last time until next season, our first game, where we can have that spotlight on us and make our voices heard and get that attention because after that, you know, the the stadium shut to West Ham fans for the summer.
So, it's difficult, but I think most fans will understand the priority is supporting the team in this case. I think there's been instances where protests have happened earlier and people have said, "Oh, don't protest because you'll affect the team."
And actually, I think those games where we did protest we ended up winning, so maybe we should protest, but >> [laughter] >> I think Yeah, maybe maybe that's it, but I think for the greater >> a classic East London like just, you know, us against them, get your backs up, prove yourself. Like maybe that's what you guys actually need is a bit of Yeah, a little bit of a little bit of a cauldron, a little bit of a tasty bit to it.
But at least now, like whatever happens Sunday, cuz I know what will happen.
Like we protest and we lose and we go down, oh it's cuz of the fans. Like we have to remove any of that narrative that we can be blamed because blame will be tried to be shifted to the fans. I've already seen it in things like, oh it's the fans' fault cuz they wanted Moyes out. That's why. It's it's not the fact that >> though.
What? The Moyes The Moyes thing? Yeah, the Moyes thing comes up all the time.
Not the fact that, you know, they changed Moyes's job role, which he was unhappy and why he didn't want to sign a new contract because he was a manager and they wanted to make him a head coach and have him answer to Tim Steidten, who he didn't he didn't get on with. They would have been more than happy to keep Moyes and he would have been happy to stay had they not changed his role.
That's not the reason we got rid >> That doesn't take away from the fact that the fans did want him out, though.
But But that's that's football. That's football. I'm sorry, like if you play defensive football that's not very entertaining while losing 5-0, >> people For some people it wins them Premier Leagues. Like No, but this is the thing. You're watching You're watching defensive football while losing 5-0, 6-0 near enough every week. Let's not forget that season. We we conceded record amount of goals. Any club, I don't care what team you support, no fan is going to want to sit through that. You're going to lose fans if you're doing that. I I am empathetic to it. I am. I like you want to watch good football, but I can I also see the argument when people say a European trophy, three top 10 finishes. Like those are real things that happened and yes, that season was poor.
But Villa season started poor this year.
They were down in a relegation battle eight games into the season. They're going to finish in the top four and I'm not saying that's where West Ham would have ended up, but I just thought maybe he'd bought himself a bit more patience.
No, but this is the thing. I mean, listen, Villa eight games in no one's in a relegation battle. Okay, fair. You know, and and Emery like I said it's yeah, he's got a lot of credit in the bank. Moyes had credit in the bank because don't forget in that Conference League season in the league we had a horrific season. We had an absolutely horrific season in the league. Was in a relegation battle that season. A lot of us, including myself, was critical. I said, "You know what? We've won the trophy.
You know, he's earned another season."
And we started the next season well to be fair. But again, to sit through it and you know, go into games. I gave up my season ticket last season. So I was there every week. It was miserable. It was miserable. Seeing us not only play the worst football of my life, worse than Moyes had played previously, but lose by five goals, six goals, four goals on a regular basis. And you think this this can't be sustainable. So we had the a really old squad as well. You know, partly that Moyes built. I'm not putting it all on Moyes because it all comes back to Sullivan. But I think it's very it's very simplistic look to just go, "Well, if they kept Moyes and they should have kept Moyes." Because if you say that we should have kept Moyes, then you're excusing blame from Sullivan.
Because it is how bad this is club's been run. And it's not because we should have kept it's the the appointments after that was so poor. Lopetegui, there weren't fans going, "Lopetegui, get us Lopetegui."
>> [laughter] >> Graham Potter, Nuno.
It's it's the appointments. I have Why do I have to look at Palace having Glasner, Bournemouth having managers like Iraola? They're playing brilliant football, Bournemouth, and on the cusp of Champions League football.
Why do we have to sit there and be happy just to be in the league, getting slapped every week and playing awful football? Why?
It don't make sense.
>> And and look, this is why >> emotional. I'm emotional.
>> Dan and Dan, it's why the reason I asked the question is because you hear it come up time and time again, and you've given a very passionate and a good response to it because I agree with you, the problem hasn't been necessarily getting rid of Moyes, it's been the appointment since, it's been the treatment of the ownership, but I'm going to push back on one other thing as a football fan.
I understand your heart and your soul was in Upton Park. I understand that you guys completely bought into that, and you hate the idea that you had to move because it made you competitive, and you look at the Bournemouths, and you get frustrated that they've had success without having to do that. But do you understand why other football fans are frustrated that you are earning far more revenue than ever earned before in a stadium you're only paying 4 million quid a year for, that you don't have to pay the stewardship fees or anything else for, and yet all we hear is complaining about it. Like, I can understand why other football fans are frustrated by that.
Yeah, but you you're frustrated at something that doesn't benefit West Ham fans. The fact that we save all this money on revenue, and they're making all this money, is clearly not trickling down to the fan experience, because that doesn't mean anything to I don't care how much money we earn if it doesn't result in a successful team. If it doesn't result in us going and actually being ambitious and going and getting managers that aren't just out of contract, but paying out the for the best managers, and trying to to get a good structure behind us. Like, none of that matters. It You know, Bournemouth and Brighton and Palace have shown, if you're just a well-run club, you don't need all of that. You don't need the the revenues and you know, a cheap stadium that you benefit of. You just need to be a well-run well-run football club. So, they can be frustrated, but be frustrated with with Sullivan and and the people that made the deal. Like, but it don't benefit us, so we have every right to moan about it.
>> Trust me, as a guy who lives in London, I'm frustrated with the people that made the deal more than anyone else. It's never West Ham I'm taking the ire out on, but I again, it's one of those arguments you hear, and I see it regularly. What's for you, then?
How concerned are you about the the specter of relegation, what it means for the football club?
But equally, staying up, if it just means the Norm staying, Sullivan staying, nothing actually changing, and being back in this position in 12 months' time?
Yeah, it's it's a a real I know I've given you a horrible catch-22 there, but it does feel like if you're not relegated, I can't see Sullivan going anywhere unless it's he's forced out by whatever the kind of behind-the-scenes stuff is going on.
Yeah, I mean, there's there's no guarantee he leaves if we get relegated.
There's a hope, you know, there is a hope that he'll look at it and go, "Let me just cut my losses now." On the other hand, if we stay up, maybe he looks at it and goes, "This is the time for me to maximize my value for what I can get for the club." Because the club won't be worth as much if we get relegated. So, if he if he's going to sell, the best chance for him selling is the Premier League is us as a Premier League club, and if he stays, there's a chance we won't be the following season. He's kicking the can down the road. So, that would be the opportunity to sell. Whereas, if we go down, he might think, "Let me get the club back up, and then try to sell." And I think if we go down, there's a real possibility that we don't come back up, because we're talking mass player sales.
We're going to have to sell a lot of players if we stay up anyway, because of the situation we're in, but a lot more if we go down. Then we're trusting Sullivan to handle that recruitment, and ensure we get the right players in to get us up, the right manager, because Nuno will probably go if we go down.
And I don't have any faith at all. So, if we stay down, then revenues go down again. You know, the parachute payments reduce. So, then we become just another Championship club, and you know, we we really start to things start to look bleak. So so relegation is not something that I I want at all. Some fans think it will clear things out and it will be a renewal.
I would rather stay in the Premier League. You know and then try to hope and we can get him out. I want to throw another hypothetical at you Dan.
Would you trade your conference league title to still be at Upton Park?
100% 100 100% yeah 100% I would trade it for anything because yeah like that was an amazing moment winning that trophy unforgettable and the parade the next day it was amazing.
But those memories don't outweigh the memories I had at Upton Park the experience the match day you know of supporting your club going to the same pubs you know going and seeing the same faces having that experience of actually being close to the pitch having been in the stadium that feels West Ham with a good atmosphere.
You know that match day experience is something that I would trade anything for. You know because look as as a West Ham fan you're an Arsenal fan so you've just seen it you've just seen you win the league and you've seen FA Cups over here.
We're not in it for the glory.
We not we we we don't see glory often.
We support West Ham for the culture of West Ham and Upton Park was the center of that culture and now we've lost it.
We've lost a big part of our identity. A lot of fans come to our stadium the away fans and say you sold your soul for this ass hole.
And they're right it is like we've sold our soul we've sold a piece of ourselves. So I I'd give anything to be back there. Listen Dan the the one kind of query I do have just finish on very shortly. At least with all of this going on it must be nice to know that 90% of the football public is desperate for you to win on Sunday and send Tottenham down to the Championship.
Yeah, listen, that that that support is appreciated. I wish the players would appreciate. I don't have much faith in the in in the team because that support was there against Newcastle. In fact, a lot of Newcastle fans wanted us to win.
And we still turned up like it was pre-season.
Like we was on the beach and those they were the team that were fighting for survival. So, these players who you know, need to step up and show that they've got something about them.
They've got you know, a bit of professionalism, a little bit of pride and integrity to go out and play like it is the most important game ever. Because this is big. This is bigger than the Conference League win. This is a huge game. Unfortunately, because of what happened against Newcastle, it's out of our hands if we win, but just win our game. If we just win our game, then whatever happens in the Spurs game happens. But I don't want to have it in the situation where they lose, but we draw or we lose and we've we've just taken ourselves out the game.
So, yeah, I'm I'm worried, but hopefully we can we can step up and Nuno does the right thing. He really he I'm so I'm still so angry with Nuno for the Newcastle game. So, hopefully he learns from that.
>> It's all good, baby. You got You got our support. Come on. Come on.
Come on.
I appreciate that. Brilliant stuff. Dan Lawless joining us. Excellent stuff from him. We You wish your West Ham the very best of luck on Sunday. I just you know, I prayed to the football gods earlier this week that at least gave us one piece of drama for Sunday. That was this relegation battle. It's going to be sensational. Still to come on the show today, we're going to turn our attention to America ahead of the World Cup. The MLS have got some fun ideas going on in air quotes or brilliant genius if you're to believe in master.
We will, of course, be talking about the England squad. It's announced at 9:45 tomorrow morning. So, up next, my England squad is picked for Master to pick apart. Bringing all the biggest football debates stateside, the S word from talksport.
>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> talkSPORT presents The S Word. Get your full-on football fix from across the football galaxy. The S Word from talkSPORT.
Uh you're back with The S Word here on talkSPORT. Myself, Will Gavin, Micky Hazard, and alongside me bringing you well, bridging the gap between the North American soccer fan and the UK football fan.
>> Atlantic Ocean right there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know it. You know it.
And I don't see no icebergs. I see nothing but smooth sailing, baby. Nice smooth seas.
>> [laughter] >> Uh look, we West Ham, you got any thoughts on that? Let us know at talkSPORT S Word on all the social media channels. We've got a fascinating next hour coming up. It's been such a big like news week this week. We've not been able to get into some of the wider issues. So, Brian T Smith will join us on the news that 75% of Americans don't know who Mauricio Pochettino is 22 days out from the World >> he hasn't done much to make his name known.
>> Uh Pablo Maro will join us on the idea that MLS want to change how we referee football games from a time perspective. And Stu Holden, the former USMNT midfielder, will look forward to our cup. We'll be World Cup hour in the second hour. And with that in mind, let's talk about the England squad revealed tomorrow morning at 9:45 and you will hear it first on talkSPORT.
We're not getting the package, no? Okay, I'll keep going. Sorry. Is it not worked again?
>> [laughter] >> I love this. I love this every time cuz I always feel like an absolute mug.
Rubbish.
>> [laughter] >> Thank you. Gabs absolutely saving that.
No, right. So, okay, let's [snorts] do let's talk about you know, we thought we'd have a little fun today. Squad's announced tomorrow. So, last night I sat in the second half of the Villa game.
So, last night I had some fun. I I did.
I enjoyed this. This is very kind of sits very much in the nerd maths area of me getting to sit with a spreadsheet and bring players in and out and play around with it.
>> [laughter] >> That's the guy.
So, yeah, we went I went and looked at the England squad and I picked my 26-man England squad as I would like it picked for the World Cup this summer. I left out some of my favorite players. I looked at form. I did consider what it should be a squad. I didn't just go I'm going to pick my favorite 26 players. Do we are we able to get the graphic up of my 26 or should I just read through it?
Perfect. Let's see my England squad for the World Cup. So, my goalkeepers, I mean I've gone completely completely obvious with this with Pickford, Henderson, and Nick Pope.
>> No issues there. Defenders. So, center backs Ezri Konsa, Marc Guehi, John Stones, and I have brought Harry Maguire into the squad. Some question marks over that. I think we need a good choice. I think we need a good leader in that back line and I'm not buying this Jordan Henderson hype I've been seeing over social media the last couple of days.
Fullbacks, Reece James, Tino Livramento on the right back position. I am a little concerned about health there, but Reece James has been playing recent weeks. Lewis Hall and Nico O'Reilly, starting Nico O'Reilly, but Lewis Hall is a great option, can play both sides.
And I have included the mercurial talent of Trent Alexander-Arnold in the squad.
That's a lot of barbecue chicken right there.
>> Yeah, my midfield, Declan Rice, Kobbie Mainoo, Andre Anderson, Adam Wharton to play those two holding roles, the six and the eight. And then Morgan Gibbs-White, Morgan Rogers, Jude Bellingham, and I did include Cole Palmer over Phil Foden in my squad. I nearly thought about him when Reece James was coming out. And then I just thought he plays much better, more direct football, more of more of the Tuchel style, so I'm here for it. Harry Kane, look, Bukayo Saka, Marcus Rashford, his form for Barcelona has been excellent. Anthony Gordon, Tuchel loves him. I almost put him in there for that basis. I have put Eze in. And I went for my second striker as Ollie Watkins. So, the notable people who missed out on the squad based on [music] that, no Jarrod Bowen, no Luke Shaw or Ben White. Well, so many fullbacks. Levi Colwill I've seen popping up in a lot of people's squad.
He's come back and been brilliant for three games, but he's also been injured for the better part of the season. No Miles Lewis-Skelly. I seriously considered that. I just Trent offers the same option for me and just has something completely different. No James Garner, which I hated. No Welbeck, no Foden. I said no Bowen.
>> [gasps] >> No Madueke, I don't think anyone's crying about that. So, Master, what do you make of my England 26?
Ooh, goalkeepers, no problem with. I think you nailed it very easy. A plus.
Defenders, I am looking at your fullbacks and I am saying if there is a nation with some fantastic wingers, you guys are in trouble. I disagree. I think you guys are in trouble. I think I would play. I'd start if they're both healthy. Nico Riley Reece James or in fact Tina Livramento on the right side.
>> Reece James ever healthy? I would but I I love Lewis Hall. I love Tina Livramento who has been back in healthy.
Like I'm I Very attacking, very >> Very attacking. I'm here for it.
Attacking fullbacks and again, that's that's that's my concern. It it You will need to have rock solid center backs that are some of the best in the world and at one point England used to always produce some of the best center backs in the world but I don't know if your center backs are good enough to withstand having such front foot fullbacks. I'd say in front of it, the deepest midfield of any squad in the World Cup.
More than Portugal? The depth in terms of depth. Portugal's first three, I'm taking it.
They've got A >> Bernardo Silva coming off the >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bernardo Silva as like your you hit him and Vitinha and you have that kind of replacement. I I think you I'm starting João Neves. Of course, yeah. But my point is in terms of depth I think you can rotate those guys every game of the group stage into the round of 32 even into the round of 16 and it doesn't drop off in quality at any point on the rotation.
>> No No No No dis It's a It's a It's a really good midfield.
I'm looking through this the form that Cole Palmer's in. Do you feel confident in him? Not hugely. Cole Palmer was my biggest question mark going into it. And Foden's recent form actually has suddenly upturned but I've seen too much of him in an England shirt. I've seen too much of him played off the left. I've seen too much of him played at a position. He just doesn't suit the style of football anymore. This is not Pep Guardiola keeping the ball, little trios on the outside. This is much more direct football and I I love Phil Foden. He can produce a moment of magic but I just think that the players there suit more what England are looking to do right now. Adam Wharton is also interesting style because you talked about Myles Lewis-Skelly potentially full back but what Myles Lewis-Skelly has done lately over the last month at midfield is he a shout? He's had He's had a couple of good games in midfield, and I Second leg of Atletico Madrid, a lot of pressure going into the running, and he has performed and I have been a very I have been a Miles Lewis-Skelly skeptic because he has been last season we saw him being very reckless, a couple poor challenges that led to red cards. I I thought to a certain extent he was a liability. Mikel Arteta put the trust in him in some big games. He had big performances. I think he deserves I'm not saying he's going to make the squad, but I think he can challenge that position.
>> in consideration. I'm telling you he was in consideration. I'm telling you he misses out. I I like and we're hearing that Dean Henderson and Adam Wharton are going to probably not be with the squad from moment one because of the Conference League final, but actually they're going to bring up a fourth choice keeper. I don't know if they'll do the same in midfield to to Is it Ramsdale so you know, do we see or Steel potentially he does like Steel, but like do we see a situation where maybe Lewis-Skelly does join up with the squad? Like we've still got a lot of football to play. We've still got the Premier League this weekend. He's a great option to have there. I just from what I want from this team, from the direct style of football I want from them, from the I just I prefer what's in there. I just prefer what we've got available to us. Left wing is an interesting one to me cuz I'm not actually a huge Anthony Gordon guy in this setup. Of But >> You've got him in the lineup. Tuchel loves him. And he loves to get to the byline and pull the ball back, which suits Harry Kane so beautifully. Like absolutely the reasoning behind him.
>> is your roster.
This is your roster. This isn't Thomas Tuchel. Yeah, that's not Thomas Tuchel.
I don't know how much German you know.
Jared Bowen flashed for a few weeks and everyone got all over excited again. He was really bad in that Newcastle game, and he's about to get relegated from the Premier League.
>> [laughter] >> Okay. Yeah, okay. Liverpool will purchase him for like an absolute cut price and maybe he'll look great next year and he'll be in the squad for the next World Cup or the next Euros, fine.
He's not done enough this year.
>> And Anthony Gordon has? I I believe Anthony Gordon is more capable.
>> But if if if we're basing this off of form, Anthony Gordon isn't even playing right now for the >> been given time for England. They've both been given opportunities. This was your argument the other day about, you know, why we shouldn't be allowing João Pedro to cloud our judgment of his domestic form when in an England shirt Anthony Gordon has changed games, come in and made a difference. Jared Bowen he's he's a nice player. Set pieces he can give you he can give you some creativity.
>> I want some Where's that Bukayo Saka corner we saw last weekend? Where is that Burnley corner with You're not going to run out of You have no shortage of set piece options.
>> I I'm not too worried about that. I'm not too worried about that at all. Plus we've got the best number nine in world football playing for us up front. We'll be fine. If we're if we're talking form though, Ollie Watkins this season, he's getting older, kind of looks like maybe a half step slower than we were accustomed to seeing, and you're seeing the form that Dominic Calvert-Lewin has been in with Leeds.
That is the one suggestion I would have.
Calvert-Lewin when he is healthy is a difference-maker.
I would have a strong consideration of putting DCL in there over Ollie Watkins.
Yeah. That's my thought.
>> Watkins has done it for England on the biggest stage.
He is more suited to that hold-up play style of Harry Kane. Dominic Calvert-Lewin wants to be getting in behind. That's where I think the difference is. I'm I'm essentially looking for a guy who like-for-like replacement >> can be a like-for-like replacement. And while that's not necessarily Watkins, and Watkins does run beyond players more than Kane does and does like to Kane likes to sit a little deeper. I think he can do the Kane role more. Actually, the guy I think does the Kane role better than anyone else is Ivan Toney, but he went and played football in the Middle East instead of staying in in the Premier League and and became a bit of a I put no Toney in my I think because it hurt me to not put him in my squad cuz I would have loved Toney, but The other part about Tuchel and I think you're stuck in the Southgate mentality.
Tuchel, he can completely change his lineup from one match to the other and complete completely change the style of play. So, that's the whole appeal of Tuchel is that you wanted someone that was more tactically sound and can really give the versatility that these players provide and we'll see if that happens, but I I think DCL deserves a shot. All right, who have we missed out? Who would you have in there? We'll all find out tomorrow morning who has made it. It's quite mine. he? Don't worry, it's coming home. This is the S word and we're going all America after the break. The daily deep dive into the world of football.
The S word from talksport.
>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> The S Word featuring Will Gavin and Master Test Fatiha. And a squad of big name contributors. The S Word from talkSPORT.
Welcome back to The S Word from talkSPORT, Will Gavin, Master Test Fatiha in the studio. And you know, this show is for our American friends, for your friends, I guess you just say. Uh and we are going full America in this hour. Stuart Holden joins us, the USMNT midfielder. Uh and we will also be looking at the report that MLS is looking at bringing a stop clock into football to change the way that 90 minutes will is no longer 90 minutes essentially. So we'll have that coming up for you as well. In a moment Brian T Smith will be joining us, but first considering we've just done my England squad for the World Cup, we do have a little bit of squad news coming from our very own chief football reporter Alex Crook. And that is that Thomas Tuchel is strongly considering calling Levi Colwill up to the England squad for the World Cup. We just talked about his brilliant vein of form since coming back from his serious knee injury. He was there to watch the Chelsea center-back in last weekend's FA Cup final defeat to Manchester City and has proved his fitness after returning to training over two months ago. Obviously that would mean Harry Maguire sweating a place. Dan Burn maybe is one of those guys who's on the outside cuz John Stones is been injured. I had Stones in my in my back line cuz he just there's a level of class when he's in there. If he's healthy, he's so good with the ball. If he's so like I I I believe I believe.
Other bits of news from that squad.
Lewis Hall is expected to be part of the squad was a question mark. The third keeper I had Nick Pope in mind.
Apparently Man City's James Trafford is set to complete the goalkeeping roster and be the third choice. Building for the future maybe? Yeah, I mean that is that argument. I I don't hate it all.
Nick Pope is a better option if you've got to start a guy day one, but if in theory both Henderson and Pickford are healthy, I like the idea of bringing the young keeper along. I might even make that change to my squad.
>> that too actually. Anthony Gordon is expected to get the nod and then finally up front This was interesting to me after our conversation we just had.
Ollie Watkins was snubbed for the March internationals, has finished the season on this rich vein of goal scoring form which saw him sneaking into my team, but Danny Welbeck is in the 55-man long list we understand. And I when we were talking about DCL and Ollie Watkins, I was considering Welbeck above both at one point and ended up having Watkins go in. So fascinating if Welbeck at his age with what he's done for Brighton this year like yeah, he's really tremendous.
If you're talking about one tournament to come along and do something if he needs to, I don't hate it at all. And he gives you everything you're looking for, the the like-for-like essential replacement. Danny Welbeck can obviously play that role very, very well. So, Welbeck's a great shout. I just think DCL I think he's in my opinion at least what he's done over the last couple weeks and it's hard to ignore what a healthy DCL can do. He is an absolute difference maker and if you need someone to come off the bench in 20 minutes to try and just run wild and try to create chances, DCL can give that to you. So can Danny Welbeck as well.
>> He's he's one of those and I think all strikers are this potentially, but you know, you very rarely do you have a Lewandowski or Kane who just is a beast 38 games, 46 games, whatever it is a season.
He is quite streaky as a striker. DCL and and Welbeck And so, you know, that is that is the question mark, right? If he hits a vein of form, he could win us the World Cup. If he is, you know, the DCL that we saw in large periods of Everton, he could be a wasted space on the plane.
That's that's it, right? God forbid Harry Kane plays all 90 minutes, 180 if need be and you don't have to worry about those issues.
>> He's been sensational. Oh, yeah, but I would like somebody who they could rest him for in the longest and hottest World Cup of all time.
Anyway, >> The greatest World Cup of all time.
>> The greatest World Cup of all time apparently is on the horizon and I'm delighted to say that joining the show now on this fascinating article that 75% of Americans don't know who Mauricio Pochettino is as we are 22 days out from the World Cup. The brilliant talksport.com Brian T Smith joins us.
Brian, how are you, sir?
I'm great, gentlemen. How are you doing today? I I apologize for getting inviting you on and then just nattering about England for a few minutes at the top, but Typical English. I fell asleep.
I didn't hear anything. It was okay.
It's coming home. Don't worry about it.
It'll be wonderful to come and win it in your in your wonderful [laughter] country.
I I mentioned that top line there, but talk to us about this this news that's come out of the night, this piece you've for talksport.com because I think a lot of people will be concerned what that means for the wider public in the US for this tournament.
Yeah, I keep waiting for the real World Cup buzz to kick in in the United States of America and it just hasn't happened yet to the point that there's a survey and we have this story at talksport.com will that more than 75% of adults in the survey which is 1,000 adults did not know who Mauricio Pochettino is.
They did not know who the United States men's national team manager is. They also thought that he might be a cartoon bear when that name was mentioned. He might be [laughter] a Michelin starred chef which actually would probably be cooler I think it's fair to say I love the cartoon bear thing and but I I do think it is symbolic of where things are at right now and I've I've said this 100 times and I will keep saying that because I believe it is 1,000% the truth. This will all change if USMNT wins that first match and they make a run and America gets behind this team but for me right now this feels much more like an international World Cup that will mostly be in the United States of America and the excitement is from England and from Brazil and Portugal and Argentina and Spain and all the top countries. There's just still an unknown factor and you can put Christian Pulisic on the on the cover of time which I don't really think that means that much anymore. Time magazine is obviously isn't what it used to be but you can do all these things but until kids in America whether they're in Iowa or Montana or Louisiana or California until they know these players' names until they know the team until that they have to watch the United States men's national team you're just not going to have that buzz to the point that 75% of Americans have no idea who Mauricio Pochettino is whereas in England 99% of people do. Really maybe want to do like a Mauricio Pochettino like it's >> [laughter] >> a Mario. Like that's that's definitely the vibe I'm getting from that cartoon bear.
>> Yeah, from America. America. Uh also another headline that was sticking in your survey was that 84% of fans are heading into this World Cup feeling anxious or deeply concerned. When you compile that data, were you surprised just how quickly the American fan base has kind of swung in this direction and and what is your sentiment towards why that is?
I I think part of this all comes back to everything going on off of the pitch, off of the field, right? I mean, it is a chaotic time in the world. And whether we're talking about different wars going on, travel issues, the economy, immigration, on and on and on.
I've thought from day one, guys, that none of this is what you want to have advertising the United States as the place to go to this summer for the World Cup. And you know, I was on this program last week and we talked about ticket prices. You throw in the ticket prices.
It's just not fan-friendly. It is not fan-accessible. And if you have to think twice to hop on a plane and spend a ton of money, not a small amount of money, a ton of money to go watch a couple matches, you might be reluctant to do it right now. So again, I think that in the end, this will work out fine and it's we're going to look back, hopefully, and it's a big, beautiful, huge, huge World Cup. But it just doesn't feel like that right now and you know, they're having issues filling out hotels. FIFA's had to back out of a lot of their hotel holds.
Every bit of news it is it's not good news right now. They need to have these matches played. They need full stadiums.
And I I still think the easiest way to do that is to continue to to drop down ticket prices and make this more accessible to your average sports fan in America who doesn't normally follow soccer. Everything is bigger in America.
We had big, beautiful, and huge, huge then. Just America. Where it's as big as it gets.
But also, as you mentioned about the ticket prices, it's interesting you note that as there is Mayor Mamdani, uh New York City mayor, has secured 1,000 tickets for $50 each to a couple of the MetLife uh Stadium matches in New Jersey, New York for residents locally that will also include 1,000 tickets for five group stage fixtures, a round of 32 tie, and a round of 16 game. The winners of this will also receive a free round trip bus travel to attend. Of course, Mayor Mamdani, huge football fan, huge Arsenal fan, so him pushing these efforts with uh Gianni Gianni Infantino uh and also making call to Arsène Wenger to try and make this happen. Do you think that will be a sign of things to come to try and spur more interest into this World Cup?
Um I wish that was going to make a difference. I I think that is absolutely not going to make a dent at all. We're talking about 104 matches in Canada, in Mexico, in the United States of America.
That feels like uh political tokenism to me. That That feels like he's trying to make himself look good. If you want to do actually go and buy a ticket for the final right now, you're going to have to shell out about $34,000.
So, what about the fans of of international The international fans who actually want to go to that match? That That works for 1,000 people. That doesn't work for 70,000 people. That doesn't work for all 104 matches. FIFA made a huge, huge mistake by going all in capitalistic American for this World Cup. And I've said this before, this all comes down to Gianni Infantino. He could have changed this if he wanted to. He continues to stand behind it. These ticket prices should be lower. The hotels should be full. We should be ranting and raving and drooling for this World Cup because it's going to be the greatest and the biggest, and it just does not feel that way. So, if if Americans don't know about it, if they're not excited about it, if it's more of an international cup in an American city, that is going to continue to be a problem, and giving away or making uh a thousand tickets cheap isn't going to fix anything. That's just him signing shining a spotlight on himself.
That doesn't fix the real underlying problem with this World Cup and FIFA running it. I I There is part of me as well that still to this day, and I know this is an old issue that you know, trawling back up, but I still New Jersey as the the site of the final still makes zero sense to me. I remember in fact at the Super Bowl 2 years ago talking to Jerry Jones on the red carpet and being like it was 2 days after they made the announcement being like should have been at Jerry World, right, Jerry?
It should have been and he gave us a very political and a very nice answer, but AT&T or I understand SoFi has a few issues with attendance because of the seating in the lower bowl. It's pretty stuff.
>> a Premier League owner who did not have a stadium.
>> You had years to figure that out. You had so long to figure that out. You could have made it work. I just Atlanta could have been an option as well if it was the idea that we have to hold it in New York because it's got this big shining beacon, you know, we can put the Statue of Liberty and you know, the One World Trade and everything else and slap it on posters and make it look great and I just like it's a it's a bad stadium and it's not in the city and it's difficult to get to and it's, you know, it's not great.
Well, there are times when you and I agree so much it's actually [laughter] kind of dangerous.
>> A clock is a clock is wrong twice a day, right? I I was I was Yeah, right exactly. I was getting goosebumps while you were talking right there because that is that is part of the problem, man.
Why does it have to be in New York, right? Why Why could this not be in the biggest best stadiums in America? AT&T Stadium, SoFi Stadium, wherever it's going to be. You could have also had this in Kansas City at Arrowhead Stadium and had the world come there and had an incredible environment. The part The problem they're going to have, Will, with this final is it's going to be all corporate. It's all going to be sponsorships, which is why I'm skeptical about 1,000 tickets for that. It's so overpriced. It should have been fan friendly and yeah, put it at AT&T Stadium. If it's good enough for Jake Paul and Mike Tyson, it's good enough for the biggest sports events in the world that are in America, why not have one of those stadiums? MetLife Stadium's basically a parking lot in a swamp.
That's the That's the environment that you want for the World Cup final, but that's that's on FIFA. You wouldn't have made that call, and I wouldn't have made that call either.
One last question from Mayan here on the expectation of the World Cup from the survey that you had. Only 12% of surveyed fans believe the US Men's National Team will reach the semi-final.
I almost my my voice cracked at the idea of the US Men's National Team making it to the semi-final.
>> win a knockout stage game, you're going to be elated. Let's be honest.
And it'll be against England. Um 68% of mass majority view a quarter-final exit as the absolute ceiling. Um and so Can you be delighted with that, surely? What do you think How far does US Men's National Team need to go for this thing to really start taking off and becoming the event and spectacle that maybe we all assumed it would be when they first got the bid?
Everything when I've spoken to former USMNT players, the guys who have actually been in the World Cup and played at the highest level for the United States, they've all said it's basically quarter-final. If if they go any farther than that, then we'll be having an entirely different conversation, and and America will truly go soccer mad this summer. And it won't matter where they're playing or who they're playing. It will take over the entire country like we've never seen before. I do know this. If they do not get out of the group stage when they didn't even have to qualify, right?
USMNT United States is in this because they're hosting it. That's why they automatically qualify for it. If they don't get out of that group stage, I mean, it will be an absolute train wreck dumpster fire disaster. I believe they will get out of that, but it's it it hasn't gotten any easier. I mean, you know, Turkey is tough. All those opening matches are are much tougher now than they first appeared, especially after they looked so poor in their friendlies, guys. I think they get out of the group stage, and then yeah, can you can you win a knockout match? Can you get to the quarterfinals? If you do that, and the stadiums are full, and we don't have any major, you know, a or or God forbid, you know, off the pitch issues or security issues, it will be a successful World Cup in the end.
But I I do feel like if the if USA is going to really take soccer in America to the next stage, they've got to make a run in the World Cup because America's too busy. You've got the You've got Aaron Rodgers uh on the retirement tour. You have the NBA finals and and SGA versus Wemby.
There's so much going in America sports-wise. That's the only way it becomes an American World Cup because most of the people right now doesn't don't know who Mauricio Pochettino is.
Uh Bernie and Stuff Brian, thank you so much to you as always. The brilliant Brian T Smith, check out his work at talksport.com and across social media etc. as well. Does fine fine work.
Master, let me tell you about a story that has just trickled across my desk from talksport.
So, this week Max Aarons became the youngest ever Premier League winner, right? Just I think he was like 50, 60, 70 days younger than Phil Foden when he won it. I mean, it's one of those classic things. You have to make five appearances to count as a Premier League winner. He made literally five. He's only [clears throat] played 91 minutes total. He was like that that beautiful goal against Everton that that five games includes like a two-minute sub appearance against Liverpool in August or something. Like a little bit of his nonsense. He deserved it. He missed training this week and there was some speculation he'd start this weekend, right? Like what a great thing. Also, 16. Can't drink. Probably good to have him starting on Sunday because there's a few of those other players who've been enjoying themselves since Wednesday.
That's in the pub. He wasn't in training and a lot of people were were questioning whether he's going to make the team on Sunday. He wasn't in training cuz he was sitting his GCSE uh today. Essentially, his SATs.
>> [laughter] >> That's why he didn't train for Sunday.
>> He's going to university? Yeah, I don't mate. I mean, maybe. Who knows? Like I just thought that was that was sensational.
How awesome. It is we It is nuts that we are going Yeah, youngest Premier League winner ever. It's like, okay, let's let's calm down. He He had one goal and and played a few sub appearances. Hey, hey, hey, hey, he had a huge goal. He had a huge goal against Everton. So much so he's taking him to the World Cup. The following match The following match I bought a Max Dowman scarf outside the Emirates. I was I was delighted. I was delighted. I was I was want to support the kids. I want to support the youth of England. Now that I'm finally supporting the youth of England, seeing the beautiful town Mazel is Kelly, Max Dowman, just just some great kids coming up through the infrastructure, through the pipeline, through the development process.
Well done, lads. Well done. See, I'm still giving him a little Arsenal flowers. I'm just you know, we're trickling it in. We're We're giving him some some love here. Petal by petal, indeed.
>> [laughter] >> That's exactly what I meant.
Yeah, I I Congratulations, mate. Well done. I don't think I've said it on air. Pleased for you. Also, before we go to break, did you love how your prayer just went so south? Where yes, you have something that's >> Hey, Spurs lost, so Yeah, they did. So there was some drama for the weekend.
>> some drama. The one thing I really didn't want to happen of all the things that happened.
>> Yes. It like it it Best case scenario prayer that you provided for me. So I'm hoping tomorrow that you call out the football gods once again and work up your magic and Am I cursed? Is that the question? No.
Am I Am I whatever I wish for will never come true. All of this is coming home numbers. You are not Dan Hauser. You are cursed. You are not Dan Hauser. You don't have to worry about No, I'm suggesting I'm the cursed one. I'm the one that maybe Dan Hauser has focused on. Maybe we should bring in Dan Hauser and curse you then. Listen.
Paris Saint-Germain.
Just to make my life easier.
>> [laughter] >> Please. We got Please. Why are we focusing What What did Sade say? Cherish the day.
Let's cherish today, shall we? He's singing. Can we stop now? Uh amazing story coming out of the Guardian yesterday. I love how Sam Harvey's singing.
Get out of here. Go. Go. Go. Um MLS are considering Well, attempting to bring back. They did try this once before.
Bringing in a stop clock situation to manage football. We saw the last World Cup. These huge, long, ridiculous, rambling added on times. Is this the solution? Are we going to let the Americans dictate what happens in football in our sport? Is that actually going to happen?
>> we do with the rest of the world, baby.
Uh, Pablo Mari joins us next. Come on.
Around here, we only use the F word.
TalkSport presents US words.
>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> talk sport presents the S word high energy exchanges fiery fan reactions and the biggest football debates on the S word from talk sport.
Uh you are watching the S word from talk sport on the S word YouTube channel of from talk sport as well. I'm Jean Jean Noel C, what a great name that is.
Uh asks, "Why New Jersey? Because no one wants to go to your backwater towns like Arlington and Kansas City respectfully."
Didn't really respect for Jean, I'm not going to lie. Okay, as if East Rutherford is any better. Have you been there before? New Jersey stinks.
>> I love the boss. I love Metrolands. I'm all for going to see Springsteen at that stadium. I'll do it. It takes you 3 hours to get there.
>> there. And it takes you 3 hours to leave. So, I was there for Chelsea-Palmeiras semi-final. It was an awful experience. Don't start with me.
Honestly, I was there for WrestleMania and it was so thankful that because I was there as media, we got state media buses out of there. But, I saw fans who were there who were queuing for that train for 3, 4 hours after the event had finished. When you've already been at the old WrestleMania when it was one night as well. You've been there for like 6 or 7 hours. That is brutal. It's a 12-hour day. Good luck.
Anyway, I don't >> I will not be there. We're already positive about the World Cup. I am. It's going to be the biggest World Cup of all time.
Will it be the greatest? We will be here every day, Monday to Friday and then during the World Cup 7 days a week on the S Word for you from 8 till 10 Eastern, 1 till 3 here in the UK reacting to every single game, previewing, and all the big news stories from domestic football as well. And we'll turn our attention to MLS, Remington. Bit of MLS in a little while and it's fascinating article that came out in The Guardian this week.
Well, we'll be asking the question should referees stop the game every time that there's a stoppage in play? Well, I'm delighted to say that joining the show now US soccer reporter for The Guardian written this article, Pablo.
How are you, my friend, Pablo Maurer?
I'm good. How are you guys doing? I'm wondering after hearing all this banter whether I'm even allowed to be on the show as an American. But, you know. Oh, 100%. You are absolutely If there is anyone that is is more worthy of being on the show, it is Pablo Maurer. The insight and knowledge that he is a Wikipedia guru when it comes to the history of US soccer. There's nobody better to be on the show. We are all for >> Appreciate it, yeah. the brilliant US soccer fans. There there is so many like all the fans we've been having on the show have been wonderful.
I'm a bit more skeptical about the setup for the World Cup, but I think when we get there, when it happens, when you know, there's football being played on the pitch, and hopefully USMNT are maybe winning a first knockout game in in 20 odd years, then suddenly we'll be, you know, right there and into it.
Yeah, I'm not holding my breath. We'll see what happens.
>> [laughter] >> Uh Pablo, tell us about this piece you've you've done for the Guardian, cuz it definitely caught my eye in a very English football fan, why you trying to change the rules, what's happening here, uh not on my lawn, not in my backyard kind of way, but talk to us a little bit about what's been proposed here.
Yeah, I mean, it is one of those things MLS is I mean, I careful with the word proposed, I would say just because they're still sort of in the exploratory phase of things, right? Um but the idea being that MLS, um you know, is in conversation with IFAB about the idea of maybe trialing a stopped clock. I mean, I think you alluded to it in the open.
Um you know, when MLS was founded in 1996, they used some iteration of that.
Obviously, clock that stops you when the ball goes out of play, foul, you know, throw-in, um you know, corner kick, whatever. Um back then, it was a clock that counted down from 45 to 0. That is not something that would return. Um any of the what's being discussed right now by MLS would be, um uh potentially uh 90-minute stop clock, or even a 60-minute stop stop clock, which is something that IFAB has kind of batted around before. Um I am struck, you know, it's I I So, two things. A, if MLS were to even get permission to do this, they would try it out in MLS Next Pro, which is their developmentally before, you know, put it in the the first division. And B, I just don't know that it'll happen, and I think it's because it's something, um you just said it, I think, like the idea of a 90-minute football match is something that's like almost sacrosanct, you know? Um it would seem like such a fundamental change to the game.
But but who knows, you know? Um there have been other fundamental changes that happened that that probably neither of us saw coming. So. And one of them being from this last World Cup, the the 12-minute, 15-minute stoppage times at the end of each half that essentially can produce its own half in itself. It's It's just basically trying to mitigate that problem, which I'm sure we'll see once again this summer.
Yeah, I mean, I I do think the you know, the their hearts are in the right place is what I would say.
Um you know, and I do think I do think it would go a long way towards eliminating time wasting, but you know, the other thing too is and again, it was alluded to in the open where it's like, you know, my English football purist brain is upset at this.
I mean, I wrote an article about this years ago for The Athletic. There's just like, you know, what if I told you that like the back pass rule which people think came, you know, came along in the early '90s after the '90 World Cup.
Um like the North American Soccer League was tinkering with that in like the early '80s. Like the use of substitutes, the use of substitutes in matches. That first happened in America in the 1920s and '30s.
Um all sorts of stuff, you know, kind of emanates out of America. It's just um when Americans kind of toy with rules like that, it is very much dead on arrival. It takes um it takes I don't know, like a British person doing it, you know, 10 years later taking credit [laughter] for it.
Typical.
I Here's the question, right? I I I I joked about it in the intro, but there will be people who will have read that article, who will get in the comments, who will have bristled about it, and will go, "Americans are trying to change our sport. What on earth are they doing?" Whereas actually, you know, master rule, bang the table for it. You know, why wouldn't you trial it in in a nation like that where actually maybe they're willing to be a bit more forward thinking about it.
Yeah, for sure. And I mean, there's, you know, this is not There are two new rules for this World Cup that literally started in MLS Next Pro just like this, you know, stop clock one would be uh the the on you know, off-field treatment rule, the one that says that, you know, if you're not up off the ground for 15 seconds, you have to come off the field for 2 minutes if you're an injured player. There's obviously exceptions there for head head injuries and that sort of stuff. And then the the timed substitution rule where you have to be off off the field in 10 seconds.
Um you know, both those things were trialed in MLS Next Pro, and the league, you know, executives of the league created those rules. And by all accounts, they're like wildly successful. I mean, they just completely eliminated those two issues, and were pretty quickly adopted by IFAB, you know, so Yeah, I mean, I think I mean, I just again, I as far as the the stopped clock goes, it just seems like almost a bridge too far. Um I think there are probably other little things they could do. I mean, you could have a like a clock in stadium for stoppage time that runs as it goes on after it's displayed. You could use a stopped clock during stoppage time, for example. Um There's like little things to trim around the edges, but I think executives at MLS are like, you know, why we've been doing all these sort of half measures and stopgap things, why not just stop the clock, you know? But >> I I feel like yeah, I I have been I'm not I like the theory behind testing something like this. I I totally understand it, and I hated those really long stoppage times, but there is the part of me that can is concerned Forget the sacrosanct 90-minute thing. I think nothing should be sacrosanct if it's going to improve the quality of football. But there is the part of me that's like, do we lose the fact that we don't know how long injury time is, that you get that real tension in the stadium, that you get one set of fans whistling, that you get that kind of It's nonsense. There's so many dramatic moments that have happened in injury time in the past. And I think part of it is Yeah, it's Yeah, I think part of it is the not knowing, but that is what the situation is, is that the you know, Man City having the whistle blown after 97 minutes the other night, and then pointing the fact that you know, there was a goal and a and a substitution in that time. Surely we should have I just feel like That's good for the game?
There are I feel there are ways that you could deal with this that involve, like you say, limiting how long it takes to for somebody to come off the field. If you go down with an injury, and it's, you know, potentially somebody doing it to stop the clock and slow things down, having some kind of penalty for doing so. Like it feels like you can stick within the rules of the current game and get rid of that gamesmanship without needing to overhaul it entirely. Yeah, I mean, you could I mean, it it would take nothing more than maybe instructing referees to just be much stricter about adding time and other stuff. You know, but what I'd say is it's funny and I'm struck that it's kind of a direct analog between um what you're talking about with this sort of like you know, it's a it's like a subjective kind of like, oh, but the the mystery and the blah blah blah. It's like, you know, people can make the same argument. I make I'd make it about VAR, you know, which I >> Uh trust me, you're preaching to the choir on that one after the last couple >> Yeah, which I hate, you know, and it's like to me it's like you if you're a soccer fan, football fan, whatever you want to say, you got to like um it's I would rather accept some degree of uncertainty and human error um as a fundamental part of the game than insist that like everything has to be perfect and fair and just. Like my thing is always like, you know, sports mirror life, right? And life's not fair and people get hosed all the time in real life. I don't know why why like a football pitch is the one place where it's like, no, like every single outcome has to be, you know, exactly just. I think, you know, it's one of those things. Are you willing to tinker with sort of the the more, you know, kind of out there um you know, elements of the game that that aren't almost fact-based. They're more about like feelings or whatever else, you know, and it's very much the same argument with this. But I will say, man, the stoppage time thing has always driven me insane. I mean it is, you know, if you're going to do it, I think the ref needs to literally just to the to the second add on, you know, but it's I don't know. Yeah, how do you do that? Do you Is it cuz realistically, the ball is out of play 30 to 35 minutes of a game. And so, do you only include goal kicks, not throw-ins? Do you only include when it's a goal scored? Do you only include substitutions? Like, it becomes a real, real like I mean, I also so so the way it was done in the NASL back in the '70s and early on in MLS is um the ref, you know, when he wanted the clock stop would I mean I think at the NASL it was this sign, you know, um, you know, cross your arms over your head kind of deal. And then the clock would stop. And it didn't always stop. For example, it didn't stop on like every throw-in. If the ball goes out of play and you know, uh, a player takes here like 7 8 seconds to throw the ball back in, the clock continues to run. Even that creates issues though, because even that is subjective. Then you have teams probably complaining, "Well, whether it take like 12 seconds, you didn't stop the clock, you know, like" There's there's like there's really no way to get rid >> another way to take some of the flow out of the game. It's another way that just takes the It's more like goal-line technology. It's another way to make it more automatic.
It gives you a more linear approach to stopping this clock. If you set out there and say, "Hey, 5 seconds after 5 seconds of the ball's not thrown in, we stop the clock." There's very clear and easy ways to fix this because let's be honest, every single fan complains about stop wait time wasting and the even at the Arsenal match I was at with Burnley with David Luiz down for 2 minutes and they added an additional 2 minutes afterwards and no one knows when this game is actually going to end. And sure that great creates great suspense, but I'd rather know when the game ends.
Master I I I feel what you're saying. On the other hand, um, there there exist already rules of for example, the where the goalkeeper has to put the ball in play within 8 seconds, right? Or um, or it's a turnover and like how frequently is that ever even called? And like if you watch soccer, it's like I I just don't I feel like it and I might be wrong. I didn't sit there with a stopwatch, but I feel like almost every single time the goalkeeper handle handles the ball he has it for longer than 8 seconds. So I think you can even when you have certain clear-cut rules, at the end of the day it's also up to human beings, in this case the officials, to enforce those rules. And with that being said, cuz the yellow cards and the you know, all the implications towards that, the refs have been a bit lenient. But if you straight up just say, "After 5 seconds if the ball's not thrown in, then cool. You can waste as much time as you want to." It's not going to make any difference. I'm going to I'm going to say something that's that might even be more like, uh, you know, like sacrilegious or American.
I mean, the technology exists to where they could probably stop the clock the you know, like when the I'm sure they could put a tiny RFID thing in the ball or something like when it goes over the end line the touchline, the sideline, whatever like the clock stops, you know? Um I don't know like why even why even have the ref keep time at all, I guess, you know? Um You can't It is an American sport. At this point at this point we have robots calling balls and strikes and at this point we have robots robots calling balls and strikes in the in the MLB and it seems to work pretty well. I agree.
You could you could never keep 90 minutes if you were doing it every time it went out of play cuz games would take two and a half three hours. I mean, I already as a fan of the NFL dealing with English sports fans telling me that game is too stop start. If you tried to do something like that in football, it would be there'd be riots on the streets.
>> The point it already does. Yeah. You had 15 minutes at the end of each stoppage time as you So that doesn't that happened in the last World Cup because they made a big focus about it. And actually it's really interesting that that Calling breaks, all this stuff.
It's going to be a Pablo actually made a really interesting point which was the eight seconds with the goalkeeper. Right, this is a thing that happens certainly in the Premier League and I'm sure across world football is that whether it's IFAB or it's the PGMOA whoever it is, they'll go this season we're really going to focus on encroachment in the box on penalties.
And for three weeks you see every penalty that's taken gets retaken because they show on the replay somebody's inched into the box. And they're like this year we're really going to crack down on goalkeepers. And the last World Cup they went uh we're we're sick of time wasting so we're going to add loads of time on. And what happened was in the group their idea was we're going to do that and then people won't want to time waste cuz they won't want 15 minutes added on afterwards. And what actually happened is we got out of the group stages, we got in the knockout stages and suddenly we were seeing extra time being maybe it was seven minutes instead of five minutes. But the 15 minutes and the 12 minutes went away because they realized that it was ruining the on-field product. It was ruining the TV product. Like How was it How was it ruining How was it ruining the I mean, how was it ruining the product? I I didn't I mean, I liked it. How long half How long half How long half You're not getting quality.
Yeah, but how long half You're not getting quality. You're getting quantity. not getting You're getting teams slowing the game down, particularly in this World Cup, which is going to be humid, hot, like difficult in many of the conditions. If you're suddenly playing 60-minute halves because you're adding 12-15 minutes onto each game, I would argue the overall quality of those games is going to be lower because you're just going to see a lot of possession football and no one actually playing direct and attacking. It's just going to be Right, calm it down cuz you've still got to play 20 minutes of this half and we've already been out here for 40 minutes.
Yeah. I mean, this is America and we're about to have a World Cup here and we're all about I think quantity over quality, so we'll see what happens. [laughter] One last question for you before you go, Pablo. When you talk about the rules that have been changed that have been started by Americans, I mean, you talk about the amount of American investors now, the billionaires that are involved, you know, injecting money into a lot of these clubs, why don't Americans get more credit for what they're doing to the game?
I mean, like I said, I mean, you know, it's Ameri- you know, the general sort of sports-consuming public in America has never considered soccer seriously until the past couple of decades, right? And I think um the the rest of sort of global sports community has never considered America uh you know, to be a a country that consumes soccer. So, I mean, I think yeah, the rule change thing um you know, is a byproduct of that. I would say also, you know, Americans spent you know, the history of American soccer up until maybe the past 15 years is just full of like uh you know, a bunch of investors being like, how can we Americanize this? Like, you know, the game is too low scoring, the game you know, X, Y, and Z thing. We need shootouts, we need cheerleaders, we need X, Y, and Z thing and um I do think what they missed fundamentally was that most people who would you know, want to watch the game in the United States, even if it's an American soccer match, want to watch the global version of it. Um they don't want to watch something that's wildly different. People have only recently figured that. I don't think that it's any coincidence that now these rule changes like the ones you just saw adopted um you know for this World Cup and and whatnot. I I don't think it's a coincidence that now IFAB FIFA maybe the rest of the global community is maybe taking ideas that come out of America a little bit more seriously because America's taking its soccer football whatever you say more more seriously. But I will say um I had a conversation about this yesterday with a friend and I said yeah you know that the stop clock thing it almost like look I would be real with you. I think it's a good idea. I think if they can find a way to implement it correctly I'm all for it. I have concerns that they'd find a way to implement it correctly for sure which is by the way why you why why is I that's why you trial it in a lower division and stuff before it you know even comes to MLS and then before it goes global um but I will say that like having this conversation yesterday I was like yeah I almost get the sense that MLS is getting like a little big for its britches in terms I was like oh we got these two kind of small but fundamental rule changes approved. What else can we do?
Oh like yeah let's do a stop clock or let's >> a punt. That's a big one.
It it is man. It's like that's what I said. It's I I I personally think it won't happen for one reason alone and it's because a 90-minute match is absolutely considered fundamental to the identity of the game period. It's not like you know this you might as well like make the ball square in a way um you know like I I don't know. I I can't see it happening. But to be clear I think it's a good idea you know. I think it I think it would completely almost eliminate the simulation and time wasting and stuff like that um almost overnight you know.
But I don't think it's going to happen.
Uh Paulo brilliant stuff from you. Thank you so much. Great article. Really appreciate your time. Brilliant stuff.
Paulo Marro joining the show. Woo.
Soccer reporter from The Guardian. I just did you know nice little Americanism for you giving some clapping and some whooping and some hollering at the end. I do there is an interesting conversation around this right. I know we need to get to Stu Holden but it comes back to Rory Jennings getting angry about the half time show last week on talkSPORT cuz you know it's going to now mean that half time is 25 minutes instead of 15 minutes so that BTS and Madonna and everyone else can get out there. Or Shakira or whoever [laughter] it is or Shakira or whoever it is and he will be too. Uh yeah, I think we can there will be a certain amount of Americanism which is embraced in this World Cup. We love it when a World Cup takes on the identity and certainly with Mexico and certainly with Canada maybe you know, we'll have we'll have referees wearing like you know, >> [snorts] >> uh double denim tracksuits and mountie hats and things like I I have Canadian family I'm allowed to say these things, right?
>> [laughter] >> But the point is that there will be a certain amount of it allowed. There will be a certain amount of the rah-rah and the other like I need all of it. If they kept the you know, single player introductions from the Club World Cup for example and had half time shows and would it like I think there will be a certain point where there is a pushback from the old school and and We will still have our blueprint on this World Cup. Our fingerprints will be on this World Cup. Uh you are watching the S word from talksport and talking Uh you are watching the S word from talksport and talking of fingerprints all over the World Cup Stu Holden is going to be everywhere over this World Cup. The former USMNT and Bolton midfielder is part of Fox Soccer's coverage. We'll be partnering with them throughout this World Cup getting a lot of their talent on and Stu Holden joins us up next after they announced their sensational roster for the World Cup earlier today. From kickoff to the full-time whistle, talksport presents the S word.
>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Talk Sport presents the S word.
Listen again and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and on the Talk Sport USA YouTube channel.
Welcome back to the S word from Talk Sport. Final part of the show. Brilliant show so far today if I do say so myself.
It's been lovely to be back. We've been celebrating Villa. We've been building a statue to Unai Emery. And very red, white, and blue, baby.
>> And we can get very American today. We talked about America. We talked about the idea of the stop clock being introduced in MLS and whether that could be adopted in world football. Brian T Smith joined us on that. Mauricio Pochettino news. And now, after we announced our World Cup roster today, it must be said the Talk Sport one is looking absolutely sensational.
On Talk Sport, you are not only going to be getting World Cup winners like Emmanuel Petit. You're not only going to be getting former England players like Kyle Walker who's only in the squad just as recently as the last tournament.
You're also getting two current Premier League managers, Hercule and David Moyes, West Ham legends.
>> [laughter] >> I just did that just to pop the boys in the other room.
>> Sorry, Sam. Uh sorry, Sam. Apologies. Uh so, we've got a sensational roster, but you know who else does? Our friends at Fox Soccer who we'll be partnering with throughout this World Cup and I'm delighted to say that joining us now the former USMNT midfielder and I'm told a man who's looking pretty suave. Do you want to join the show? There he is.
Look at that.
There's putting us to absolute shame.
I got to get dressed for the occasion, you know, come on.
Big show, big vibe, big suit. Let's go.
What a guy. What a guy. Stu, thank you so much for joining us. And it is today you guys are kind of doing the full big announcement, the big media day, loads of people getting involved. And we've been talking a lot today about whether the excitement is getting there in the US yet. Are you feeling it now that you guys are doing the media? Are you starting to feel like it's starting to bubble up that the World Cup is coming?
Oh yeah, like I think the the real sign is when you start to walk into any store in the United States now, you see the merch everywhere. So you you know, you've got Mexico jerseys, US jerseys, Canada. They're rolling out the billboards. You're seeing an ad campaign coming out here every other day now from big brands featuring big stars and big players. So you know, any talk and look, I see all the stuff about tickets and hotels and oh, you know, they're under capacity. Look, this happens every single World Cup. It happened in Russia, it happened in Qatar, it's happening here now. Once that tournament starts the next couple of weeks, you're going to get this huge influx of visitors and this country is going to be hit by a tidal wave of soccer or football.
Football lads, it's going to hit us and right in the face and I can't wait, man.
It's going to be awesome. Now you call soccer, it's all right. We you know, we got some Americans on the set too.
>> [laughter] >> You don't use the S word around here, only the F word. Thank you very much.
I guess it started, it was them.
Anyways, Stu, great talking to you.
Always enjoy when you and John Strong are on the call. Of course, you've called so many World Cups, so many international events including of course the World Cup final last in 2022, but being able to call the World Cup here in your own backyard, what does that mean for you and and what are you hoping comes out of this World Cup for this great nation of ours? Yeah, it's crazy, you know, I know we've got a a audience as well as you know, American audience and look the sport in this country has come a long way. The last time we hosted the men's World Cup was 1994. We didn't have a a men's professional league, we didn't have a women's professional league. They were handing out cards at the stadiums to tell people what a goal kick and a corner kick and you know, how many points you got for a goal. You get one point for a goal. So, to think where the sport is now and to think how many people will be watching us this summer, it's crazy. I I don't think I'm going to be able to contextualize it truly until the end of this tournament, but to think that I have two young kids, 10-year-old and 5-year-old. I want them to go to as many games as they possibly can. I also want them to consume as many games as they can over on TV because we're going to birth the next generation of soccer fan. Like the the game in our country is still so young compared to the rest of the world and I think there's this constant desire. We're we're exceptionalists in America, right? We think we're the best at absolutely everything and a lot of sports we are, but in soccer on the men's side, we're not. But the sport has grown in a long way and I think thinking about now that next generation that's going to be exposed to a tournament on this stage. This is going to be bigger the biggest sporting event the planet has ever seen and certainly the biggest media event here.
This this country is going to go crazy for it and I I my hope is that now we take that momentum after the fact, but my my role, I don't know.
I feel like I have a huge responsibility to to to share this game and share my experiences to to hopefully in an entertaining way that we we rope in those people and bring them into the soccer tent in this in this side of the pond. I love that you put into context what it was like in 1994 cuz I try to explain to a lot of people growing up not having cable, growing up in poverty.
It wasn't until 1998 that every single World Cup was broadcasted in the English, but even then for someone like me that didn't have cable, I had to watch it in Spanish. And so the accessibility and you talk about the accessibility of club play and and all these other international tournaments, it was so difficult just being able to watch these games. How far have we come in that and how has that contributed to the accessibility of the sport?
Look, I I actually hear this from a lot of my friends in the UK. They say, "Hey man, you get more games of the Premier League in the US than we do here in the UK because we can watch games from morning till night." And that's kind of the beauty now in this country is you can flip the TV on on a Saturday morning and you can watch Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, and then you've got MLS throughout the night. But now what we're doing with the World Cup certainly at Fox is we're going to have 70 games on over-the-air for free TV. That that's that's unprecedented. We've never had that. I mean Yeah, it's it's awesome. That that's We're clapping and we're saying it's awesome, but it but it is a big thing >> [clears throat] >> to not push back a little bit, but just to raise that, you know, I think there have been missed opportunities with this. MLS staying behind a paywall this season when you're going to be getting so much more attention on the sport. The fact that you know this better than anyone, Stuart, as a former professional, it's the world's sport. It's a sport that guys can go out and play on any grass surface or not even. As long as they've got a ball and some jumpers for goalposts to make it really cheesy and old-school English.
Have there been missed opportunities?
And the fact that Fox are doing this is obviously great, but does America need to make sure that it really capitalizes on this? Yeah, I think that's the hard thing to know, right? Like I don't think we knew in '94 by starting a professional league that it would the impact that it would have and the position it would be in now. I you know, those are some of my best memories that you're talking about there when I was just a young kid in in Scotland and then in the US it's with your buddies and you throw down the t-shirts and you make two goals and you just played football. I I think for our country to be in a place that we're realistically talking about that we can catch up with the rest of the world on on the men's side. It has to have that cultural moment where all the kids dream of playing soccer and that they can they can see it within touching distance that now they can grow up and dream of making millions and driving their Lamborghinis and Ferraris and that that can come through soccer. Previously, that was only NFL, basketball, and and we lose a lot of our good athletes to those other sports. We have 300-plus million people in this country. The the second that now, you know, you get 75, 80% of kids that say, "I I really have an opportunity and a pathway to play soccer because now there's investment, now there's fields to play." We don't have that. I mean, I live in LA now, guys, and one of the the field spaces of is a big issue for for Westside Los Angeles.
There's nowhere for these kids to play.
My kids don't get to play pick-up soccer unless it's on the playground at school.
And and when we can get to that point, you see basketball hoops, you see American football, you know, grass fields, and it's it's it's a big question mark that I'm not sure I have the answer to yet. My hope is that that that that happens. There's going to be more attention on the sport than ever before, but still there's some people saying, "Look, the World Cup's the circus. It's going to come to town, and then it's going to leave, and what are we left with? We're left with people saying, 'Well, it's still the world's sport. It's not it's not really an American sport.'" No, we have a we have a very robust soccer culture in this country, and I just I hope that we carry that momentum, and we push it forward, and those soccer fans that we make this summer, we keep those fans for the rest of their sports journey. We absolutely will. I'm 100% positive and confident that this will continue to push momentum and take it to another level. And a big hope and that we need for this to have this this gigantic rocket ship moment is USMNT. We need a good outing from them in this tournament, but I know. I know.
I'm I I would I was very optimistic and hopeful when Pochettino was first brought on, but I don't know if it's the performances or his messaging, whatever the case may be, I'm I'm not as optimistic right now.
Can you give me some hope? What how how will we fare in this World Cup?
>> Listen, you're you're starting to turn way too English. You're getting too pessimistic. [laughter] Yeah, you know. If you're If you're sitting this close to me all day every day, the pessimism just seeps into your The pessimism just seeps [laughter] into your I know. Listen, I lived there for a long time, guys. I know it. The sun's out, it's too hot. The rain's out, Oh, it's too hot today. Sure, honestly, it's like 20° outside today, and I'm sweating.
[laughter] It's 75° and they're complaining. I'm wearing a turtleneck.
Yeah, I mean, English football's in dire straits. They've only been to a, you know, a semi-final, and they got to the final of the Euros, but that's just the the way they are. Look, when we talk about the US national team, I don't know, like what's what's the realistic expectation for this team? This team has been dubbed the golden generation, but hasn't won anything. So, I I don't think we can even remotely say that term until they do something that nobody has ever done before. And I'm not feeling that confident about how far this team can go right now. There's a lot of what ifs, and if the what ifs are, you know, Pulisic's playing well, McKennie's playing well, Chris Richards is healthy, Balogun's scoring goals, this team can make a quarter-final.
That's that's not out of the realm of possibilities, but we haven't In the March window, you we know we get a beat down from Portugal and Belgium. We're going to play Germany and Senegal coming up here in June. I I'm I I want to come out of those games feeling good that this team can can flip it on, but at the same time, like these pre-prematch friendlies don't mean a lot, these pre-tournament friendlies, until that ball rolls. If the US beats Paraguay day one, this team's going to the round of 16, 100%. If if they struggle against Paraguay, there's I would pick them to go out in the round of 32. I I think we get out of the group, no questions, but and then that part it's really about momentum. We've seen this. Home World Cups do special things. 2002, South Korea. Morocco had a version of a home World Cup in Qatar, you know, being a Northern African team, and then the the amount of support they had, and the amount of momentum. We can compete with the best teams on any given day. My hope is that Mauricio Pochettino understands we need to be pragmatic. We can't play toe-to-toe with the best teams in the world and expect to out-possess, out-shoot, out-create chances. We have to be pragmatic about who we are and if we do that, we can get to a quarterfinal. Uh Stuart, something we do do on this show with regularity, but only cuz we've been going the last few weeks, we've had a lot of cup finals, etc. Is encourage people to give a bit of a rallying cry. So, before we let you go, this is No, no, this isn't a USMNT rallying cry. You You spent the last 4 years of your career here in England up in the wonderful town of Bolton. Bolton Wanderers are in the League One playoff final this Sunday.
Are you going to be up at 8:00 a.m.
watching it and can you send a message to Steven Schumacher to those Bolton players ahead of that game on Sunday? To I need an American rallying cry from them for why they should go out there and get back to the championship. Well, here's an even bigger plot twist for you. So, my brother, my younger brother, he played for Stockport County. So, we have we have family rivalry at stake here, all right? Bolton Bolton Wanderers, Steven Schumacher and the lads, this is our moment, okay? We've been close to promotion before. This is the year to get it done. The Wanderers fans are going to be turning up in big numbers to support you and we believe.
There is no pressure. Live in the moment. Feel the joy. It is a privilege to be in this position and you are going to get the mighty Wanderers back up to the championship. There is no ifs, ands, or buts. There is no losing this game.
There is only winning mentalities. There are only winners in that locker room and the mighty Wanderers, we're on our way back to the championship. Come on the lads. Come on Bolton. Come on you super whites.
And you know And you know what happens then if you do win on Saturday?
That's too soon, boys. Too soon.
[laughter] Come on.
Well, I've got too many Spurs friends, buddies.
West Ham's going down, boys. West Ham's going [laughter] down. Our producer Sam said Come on, Stu. Absolutely love it.
Stu holding brilliant stuff.
Thank you for joining >> [laughter] >> us today. Uh sensational stuff. Stuart's got some brilliant coverage and we'll I'm sure be speaking to him again during this tournament tomorrow. We are up to the final weekend of the Premier League.
We've got the England squad announcement and we're going to have a fan face-off between those relegated teams. Is it going to be Tottenham away or ole ole?
Is it going to be West Ham? All coming for you on the S word tomorrow from 8:00 a.m. Eastern.
>> Peace. Big name reaction from both sides of the pond. The S Word from Top Sports.
>> [music] [music] [music] [music]
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