What Rex Heuermann Got Away With at Sentencing

[00:00:01]This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Bruski and Robin Green.

[00:00:08]Rexman was sentenced to three consecutive life terms plus a 100red years in Suffach in a Suffach County courtroom. Those extra 100 years just for good measure, just in case. Uh the judge called him disgusting, told the officers to remove him, and the families of eight dead women stood up and cheered. But inside the plea deal that put him there is a confession to a murder he was never charged with. An appeal right his lawyers fought three years to protect and then gave away. And an agreement with the FBI and an agreement with others and the FBI agreements that the DA swears isn't an investigation. Uh Eric Fattis, defense attorney, former prosecutor with us to help break down what actually happened in that courtroom and what it cost.

[00:00:52]Herman, he looked at the judge and said, "I killed Ver Karen Vata." Uh, no charges were filed uh in that one. I guess what a lot of people are wondering about here. Her family was right there in the courtroom. He never had the charge, but part of it was admitting to the murder. Eric, why why is it kind of a halfass admission that he can't be prosecuted on? Uh I I'm just I think we're all kind of confused about that.

[00:01:20]You know, it's pretty unusual, Tony. And and think about if you were that victim's family and and you know, this person is being convicted and there'll be a fi final conviction of all these other murders. And then for your family member, it's just sort of some lip service saying, "Oh, yeah, I did that one, too, but not going to sustain a conviction. Not going to have a sentence for that one. If if I was the family, I would be super peeved." Uh, I haven't seen this kind of a um, uh, something built into a plea like this where you admit to a crime for which you're not charged and for which you're not going to be convicted or sentenced. Uh, I don't know if it was just some kind of attempt at closure, but I think it was probably a failed attempt.

[00:01:57]>> Do you think it would have been I'm sorry. Go ahead, Tony.

[00:02:00]>> I was just say, yeah, it's it just seems very empty for that family. Go ahead, Robin. Yeah, I was just thinking, you know, empty for the family, which is the greatest injustice, but do you think like how did that come about? Do you It struck me as a as really Rex doing an oopsie and and his defense not catching.

[00:02:17]Is that possible that I mean, how is the defense his attorneys missed that if it if they missed at all? Like, why even have that out there?

[00:02:26]>> Yeah, I I don't see how it confers any substantial benefits to either side. Um, you know, the prosecution does not secure a conviction. they don't get a sentence. Uh on the defense side, uh you're sort of making this admission of some horrible wrongdoing. Um for what benefit are you getting in exchange for that? It just seems like a bizarre way to try and sort of loop in this other alleged incident into a criminal case that's already going on, but doing so in kind of a half-ass way.

[00:02:55]>> Yeah. Because I mean, when you think about it, because again, I I am still 100% in the camp that he's got zero empathy. He's not trying to rec reconcile with anyone. He's not trying to be remorseful. He's incapable of all those things. And so he's not doing it to kind of like satisfy the family's need to know. And the only thing that he still holds as his currency is the knowledge of what he did. And he'd hold on to any every little scrap he had. I mean, he literally gave up one more thing he could use to get leverage later on if he wanted attention. So that also begs me to say I think there's more.

[00:03:29]>> I think there's more. I think there's more to the story as to why he added that or why that was added in there. And I I don't know if it was just a slip of the tongue to Assa and then it was added. I mean, is it is it a timing thing? I wonder. That's what I kind of keep going back to like, okay, well, it looks like he might have done this. He's he's confessing to it, but we don't have the goods to truly if we were to take this and prosecute him to to to go all the way and get him convicted, but he's saying it. So, is it just let's just, you know, not waste time here attempting this. I also have a a wonder pure conjecture of I wonder if if they're looking at at the timeline of Rex Herman's existence on this planet, if there's something else going on behind the scenes and the thought process was he's admitting to it now, the the the time it's going to take to to get a conviction on this extra charge is going to push this back by by years or months.

[00:04:24]I don't know. I think it might go a little bit of a ways. And let's let's get him admitting to this on the record while he's still on Earth. I don't know.

[00:04:32]I mean, he's not super old, but who knows? He doesn't look like the healthiest, you know, ogre on the planet. Um, you know, much of a swamp.

[00:04:40]>> I I wonder if there's something there.

[00:04:42]If if if there's if there's a limited time left for Rex here and it was just let's let's get Have you ever seen anything like that, Eric? where where someone knows maybe there's again pure conjecture but if someone knows there's an illness or whatever and he's doesn't have a lot of time left uh where where any of this is sped up so a conviction uh and and the sentencing can take place while the person is alive.

[00:05:05]>> You know I'm I'm wondering Tony uh if that timeline played a role. You know prosecutor can only bring charges if they believe they have probable cause.

[00:05:15]That's a low standard, but it's still a standard. And and uh a confession alone is that probable cause without anything else, without other evidence. That's arguable. And so perhaps the prosecutors were like, "Hey, this is a way to sort of loop in this other incident to try and bring some semblance of closure.

[00:05:33]He's going to admit to it anyway. And if we had to go, you know, by the book, it's going to extend this thing a number of years. And so let's lock this in. Now he's ready to lock in the other ones.

[00:05:43]let's this one. You know, it's imperfect the way we're doing it, but it's it's something as compared to the alternative approach which could take additional years and maybe the prosecution just doesn't have the goods on that specific incident.

[00:05:57]>> Yeah, I'm kind of in that camp, too, is like again, how does he benefit from this in any way possible? And I I just think it helps him in his prison setting. He can get into his normalized routine um and might even give him leverage on the inside potentially. Um, it's the only thing I can see because it's got to be self- serving. It did not serve anyone but him. There's no doubt.

[00:06:16]>> When we look at uh the actual uh you know deal that was cut here, um you know, I I don't see a lot of benefits other than he's not going to die, but that really wasn't on the table to begin with. Um he got three consecutive life sentences, 100red years stacked on top of that. He's obviously never getting out. Um but but they fought for so long.

[00:06:40]They fought for so long to throw out the DNA and the warrants and all different things and it went on and on and on and on. Why now? I guess why why do you in in in your opinion? Why after looking at all this, why do you think they decided, okay, uh let's just go for a plea here?

[00:06:57]Is that the attorneys going, dude, you know, we can take it, but you don't got a leg to stand on.

[00:07:04]>> Yeah. you know, uh if every client acted in their best legal interest and if they all uh uh followed my advice, my job would be a lot easier. But but that's not how it plays out. Uh sometimes they do erratic [ __ ] that that this doesn't make sense that they you look at a costbenefit analysis, you're like, why are you doing this? Now, usually it's the other way. Usually they they're facing insane evidence and they choose to go to trial anyway and and expose themselves to a greater risk. here. It's the opposite uh in a sense in in the sense that that he's making a decision that that is really uh impairs his legal interest. He has multiple consecutive life sentences. Um you know, the his attorney said at sentencing, he addressed the victim's families and said the reason was because he didn't want to put them through it. I don't believe that for a second. Perhaps it's to not put his family through it and have even dirtier stuff be publicly exposed, but still kind of a head scratcher even after sentencing.

[00:07:59]Yeah, I still think it was hold on to as much information as you can that the that the trial was going to expose on him as well as anything in the Carolinas that would have been I think even worse for him. I think it was total control of his narrative, total control of his fantasy life. Um, no regard for anyone else. And still I mean when you was we were talking about this yesterday with Siobhan our psychotherapist you know his I think he maintains even an easier control over Assa because there's not more that's been exposed. So he has been able to control exactly what Assa has known rather than it coming out in court where he loses that control.

[00:08:36]And so he still has as as we were saying yesterday, Assa actually has him exactly where she wanted him in her entire life under under the roof where he can't get out and go see another prostitute again.

[00:08:49]And it makes you wonder a little bit about um about all of it because of the the wrecks that we saw in court yesterday uh when he said uh my words have no meaning. Uh and just very briefly made his statement basically saying all these things that you're talking about. I did them. My words have no meaning. So I'm going to leave it at that. It sounded like the the Rex that we heard on the phone calls uh between those two together. There's if we're trying to look at at at Rex and the way he's behaving publicly now. I mean, there's a lot of monstrous people that have been charged with horrible crimes like this and they don't come across in court as anything but monstrous. He just kind of if you didn't know he did these things, you'd have no idea. I mean, he's just other than having a bad toupe and kind of looking like Shrek. Uh, I mean, he's he's just kind of just kind of the guy.

[00:09:42]I I I wonder if he comes across as a monster that would probably push Assa away and he needs Assa right now. Uh at least I think for his own mental well-being. It's the only person that's still standing by him. So, I I wonder if the lever of of not being monstrous in court or or or being uh more direct about any of these crimes is an effort to keep her close to the vest so he can manipulate and use her more from behind bars rather than scaring her and pushing her away uh and being more vocal about the the horrific deeds that he did.

[00:10:23]>> Uh very well could be. And you know, I thought his demeanor was rather curious during that hearing. Uh, pretty aloof.

[00:10:30]It kind of seemed like a guy who was there on a traffic ticket and he's like, "Hey, you know, I did this and um I can't really change it." And so, yeah, but you know, whatever. And that just seems weird when we're talking about like uh you know, the multiplicity of of grizzly murders. Uh, and so I was I was sort of struck by just the way he presented and uh what is his game? Is it to control Assa? Is it to protect Assa?

[00:10:56]Perhaps during the trial, he knows information could have come out that could further implicate her and and perhaps that that could be a reason to not proceed with the trial, even if the government doesn't have it in their possession. He might say, "Hey, through this uh through these witnesses and through these exhibits, they're going to get to the real truth of this uh which and I'm just speculating there, but I think there are a number of potential reasons." Well, remember his his main motivation as a serial killer has been sadistic control. And so I Tony made a great point is his way to maintain that sadistic control was by doing this over Assa. So he doesn't have the the physical proximity anymore, but he still has amazing control over her. She is living in his room that he did all this in. He knows it. You don't think he's getting some sort of satisfaction out of that? guaranteed. And then and to one more point on this, I have been routinely calling every single person we've ever covered an idiot, a [ __ ] because they are not Rex. Rex is probably hands down the most intelligent, strategic killer, and homicidal [ __ ] idiot that we've seen.

[00:12:08]Not idiot in the sense of intelligence.

[00:12:09]He's highly intelligent, but that's where that's where I think the difference in this is is his moves are very very strategic for his own benefit.

[00:12:17]more than I think we've ever covered.

[00:12:20]>> I wonder how much he's handling her with kid gloves still, too. Um because I wonder what she might know about the Carolinas.

[00:12:29]And we'll get to that in a moment. Um and I I am not accusing her of any crime. I don't know. I mean there I and I'm not accusing her in saying that that she was necessarily conscious that he was doing horrible crimes, but I'm saying I wonder if retrospectively she's looking at life and going, "Oh, that's what that was all about."

[00:12:49]Different moments in life that just didn't quite add up cuz you'd imagine over what 30ome years there would have been a little mask slipping every now and then. She she was on a a mission not to see it no matter what. But I I do wonder if if there is some knowledge that she may hold that could bring charges in the Carolinas which could also bring a death penalty. Um >> not her. I think I think Victoria would because remember she's blocking it out.

[00:13:20]I think the daughter, the one who's having the aha light bulbs going off every other day, that poor traumatized girl is the one who's probably piecing it all together. Uh, I think Assa, as we've covered, I think she's got her life so bifurcated with him. You know, I I think I don't know if she'll ever ever think of him and anything except the night and shining armor. I mean, she's just so locked into that. So, she will block that out. But now, Victoria, that's the one I think has that's the one I think if he was going to be afraid of anyone, I'd be afraid of her >> of what she could say or do. I do wonder. But I do wonder, you know, she was really young through a lot of this and and and I wonder how much of her memory is just not going to be super strong for what dad was up to this way and that way. But I who knows I mean there may be >> she's the one that can have daily conversations with Assa.

[00:14:09]>> True.

[00:14:09]>> So she's the one that actually can get the leakage over time where is going to have defenses down because they're not being telekinesis. And I'm sorry we're excluding you from from asking you these questions, Eric, but it it is is a curious thing about how he's trying to manipulate everything around himself to protect himself, I think, from further further things that could actually cost him his life. The uh his ex-wife Assa uh her attorney picked up his dry cleaning so he could wear a suit. So I think if anyone's wondering about are you know because there's time since they filmed the last chapter of the documentary on Peacock. Um so you well maybe the relationship has changed since then. The fact that uh her attorney is picking up his dry cleaning for sentencing. What does that tell you about what that relationship is like today Eric?

[00:14:58]>> Uh yeah tells me that they are still uh potentially in league with each other.

[00:15:04]uh at least in terms of this ongoing saga and what side everybody is on. You know, I know there's been a divorce, but we've also seen a history of of support uh even as the allegations emerged. Uh and and so um yeah, seems like they're kind of on the same team still uh even if they don't want to be ter you know, terribly public about that.

[00:15:25]>> Yeah. your thoughts in the comments section on Substack and YouTube as we continue our conversation about the sentencing of Rex Herman. Uh links are in the description. Assa Alreb skipped the sentencing. Her attorney said the day should belong to the families and and it should. Uh but Assa's legal problems may have just started. Valerie Mac's son has filed a wrongful death lawsuit naming Assa her daughter Victoria and Rex uh alleging they knew or deliberately avoided knowing what was happening inside that house. Eric Fattis, defense attorney, former prosecutor with us to tell us if there's any teeth to a suit like this. The lawsuit doesn't just say Assa missed the signs. It says she actively concealed what was happening. Civil conspiracy.

[00:16:15]Um, that's that's calling the wife of a serial killer his co-conspirator.

[00:16:20]Um, what does have to be proven to make something like that stick?

[00:16:28]>> Sir, Tony, and I've read the complaint and uh, you know, respectfully, I think there are some problems with it legally.

[00:16:35]Uh, but to make that stick, you know, what they would have to prove is that Assa um had an agreement with Rex. Now, it doesn't have to be an express agreement. It could be kind of implicit or whatever. But there was an agreement for her to provide material aid. She knew of the crimes he was committing and she wanted to further them in somehow, including trying to conceal them. Um, and and that's a tall order. And when you look at the complaint, it has a lot of sort of somewhat bald allegations regarding that, but not a ton of details on it. And so, um, you know, they're going to have to prove a lot to get there to say Assa was essentially, uh, complicit in all of this. You know, just saying it is one thing, but proving it's another.

[00:17:18]>> Yeah. I'm I'm curious because we've been talking about Assa so much in the last couple weeks and in the last couple days, even more. And and she seems to have these completely like very very thick rosecolored glasses when looking at Rex. I can almost imagine him doing these things in front of her and her being blind to it because she's just got she she's her blinders are so narrowly focused on regarding him. So, what's a prosecutor going to be able to I mean, is is even if they had a photo of her, I mean, watching this, is that in other words, what do they need to be able to prosecute this if her context I mean, I guarantee you she could possibly because she doesn't internally believe it that these things ever happened or that he ever did them or she was ever present for him, whatever the charge is going to be on it. And so, outside of that, how does her context of what happened really play into the prosecution? Well, you know, they'd have to prove her knowledge, her agreement with Rex, and her providing some kind of material aid.

[00:18:21]So, that can come in the form of witness statements. I mean, if Rex were to turn on her and say, "Hey, yeah, we I told Osa about this, and then we had an agreement. She'd help me cover it up, and then she took these acts X, Y, and Z. She provided me these supplies. Here are the receipts. Here are the text messages. Here are the emails."

[00:18:35]Something like that. That that would be the type of evidence we'd be looking for.

[00:18:39]>> Oh, so that's an interesting So, let's let's go down that one a little bit. Um, I'm sorry, my conjecture road. The So, I don't imagine a world where he probably openly discussed these things with her, sent her a text because he's a smart guy about this and it would probably fly right over her head because she's got it blocked out. But this material aid is an interesting one. What if they were able to show through purchases and stuff that she actually was tasked by Rex to go out and purchase things for decapitating, for dis I for all the horrendous sadistic things he was doing that she actually made purchases or was aware of those purchases. Is that enough?

[00:19:17]>> She would have to be knowingly aiding him in the commission of a crime. Simply saying, "Hey, can you go purchase this saw or something?" That wouldn't be enough.

[00:19:24]>> Yeah. And that that's where it gets into tricky territory cuz I I was wondering the same thing cuz providing aid uh and concealment of crimes. People can do both of those things and not be aware that they're providing aid or concealing a crime at the same point if that context is lifted. So the awareness piece is is the the lever that that the prosecution in that would would need to pull and need to make the jury feel that yes, she was certainly aware. But I I guess I is there is there a line ever that courts draw even when the person says, "I had no idea that I was doing this." I a simple example would be like, "Hey honey, my clothes are real dirty."

[00:20:07]And and she washes his clothes. I'm not saying this happened. I'm just for a pure conjecture example. She washes the clothes uh and and they had blood on them. Um and and she doesn't ask any questions. She just does it. Um, let's say she saw blood but doesn't ask any questions. Is that awareness or is that I could see Assa just being like, "Oh, you know, it's red paint." Or or she telling herself some [ __ ] so she doesn't have to mentally go to where the evidence that's sitting right in front of her, screaming at her actually is.

[00:20:44]Where does the court say you're an effing idiot if you don't think that this was awareness? Like if he went he was doing like the Brian Walsh Home Depot run with with barrels.

[00:20:56]>> I think exactly. That's why that's why I use that example too. Yeah.

[00:21:00]>> I mean if she was on camera buying all this [ __ ] and then it's like there's no What did you think he was doing with these things? You never saw them. He wasn't like making a compost pile in the backyard uh with leaves and and you never saw him do What do you think? I mean, where where is the line here where the court says, "I'm sorry, your stupidity argument or ignorance argument just doesn't doesn't fly."

[00:21:23]>> Sure. It's a great question because on so many accomplice cases, you know, the accomplice who's caught says, "Oh, I didn't know they were doing crimes over there." And then they're like, "Oh, well, you know, you you see this uh you see drugs lying around and you see them getting money and there's scales and and then they ask you to buy a bunch of baggies." as well. You probably did know the line here, Tony, is is uh it's defined differently in different states, but in Colorado, where I practice, knowingly is is uh being practically certain that circum that such circumstances exist. So, that's a pretty high bar. Uh and just seeing some blood, just seeing some suspicious circumstances, that probably doesn't get you there. But if there were further conversations, if there were acknowledgements from Assa um in some form of text, email, uh statements to her, uh daughter, something um that might get you over that threshold, but it's really uh is the person practically certain that such circumstances exist, meaning that a crime was going on, simply saying some blood, man, it's probably not enough. Guy could have been in a butcher shop. He could have been, you know, who knows?

[00:22:28]>> Yeah. I mean, it's just it's just a pure example. Well, I just wonder it's just like like where and it's it's it's up for interpretation. I'm sure it's up to that judge to say this is the line like your example there was great with the scales and all that. They're not baking cookies. That that's not corn starch over there. That's the you know um but at this point given what we've seen of this, you know, I she'd probably believe it. I mean, just she believes she believes he's a night and shining armor, you know, and she I mean, even after all she's bared witness to throughout their lives, and we saw it, you know, like it or hate it, you know, Peacock did a really great job, you know, kind of giving us an arc of her for at least a period of time from her own statements. She seems just as much infatuated with him. I don't want to her definition of love. we went through this yesterday is a little bit different, but she's as infatuated with him today as she was when she first met him, it seems like. And so I think her ability to recognize what's right in front of her is low. That's why I think this is it's a challenging civil lawsuit because I don't think you're going to get anything. And even if you did, she she I mean just it just it's easy to defend.

[00:23:43]She's no she's clueless.

[00:23:46]>> And the DA's office has cleared Assa.

[00:23:49]Um, so the civil case, and there's plenty of times where, you know, the DA clears somebody and there's still a civil case. That's what happens a lot.

[00:23:57]But it it does make me wonder about just, you know, how how strong that case can possibly be. Uh, and and and where it it might go, uh, considering that that they didn't have anything. But it does make me wonder, too, there's there's limited resources in that DA's office. They got a lot of cases to prosecute. I mean, we're talking about Long Island. We're talking about New York. one of the it's a country undo itself the amount of people in the area.

[00:24:22]So there there is there's a lot of priorities. I I it does make me wonder and Eric tell me this. Have you ever seen cases where um you have you know the big one they got him uh and and they're looking down the road in Assa going Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we really dig, if we spend hundreds and thousands of hours digging into her, maybe we'll find some snippet that looks like she may have had some sort of awareness here. But the best we're going to get out of it is is, you know, a very small sentence or just a penalty of some sort that is is minuscule and it's not worth spending all of that time just to get there with her. and they're rolling the dice going, I'm going to guess there's not more than possibly that. Do they ever just they they got their big fish and the other one, it's not worth it. Go ahead. You're going to go, you know, flop around out here anyhow. You're probably not a danger to anyone. He was the real danger. And they just don't they just don't go further. Is could that be what's going on in this, too?

[00:25:25]>> Look, these officers have limited resources. They have an oppressive case load, especially in a large uh metropolitan district like that. And so they've got to make judgment calls. They they've got to say, "Hey, do we what is what does justice look like here? Uh is justice, you know, um we already got the big fish, like you said. Uh does justice require us to spend another, you know, millions of dollars potentially and years and years going after this small fry. Um for whom there might be shaky evidence we don't have enough now. Uh should we really uh proceed with that?

[00:25:57]Is that in is that in the community's best interest? Is that in the best interest of justice? Uh and in terms of the victim's families and and things like that, you know, what more do the victim's families get if OSA is convicted? I'm not sure that it'd be a really meaningful benefit to them. I don't know, but I'm not >> I mean, does does ASA have anything to worry about with civil discovery here?

[00:26:19]uh if you know I'm wondering if somewhat of the DA is is almost uh indirectly uh outsourcing the investigation into assa into the civil world and should I mean who knows what could come up in civil discovery you this has happened before where a civil case unearthed some evidence that the uh original investigation did not find and it turns out oh look what we found here that's criminal all conjecture not saying she did anything illegal but if the civil case in discovery somewhere does find criminal behavior. Uh could that lead then to criminal charges against her uh as they were discovered indirectly through the uh civil case?

[00:27:00]>> Uh it's possible and and you know you on the criminal side. So they're looking into Rex, right? And of course they're investigating Assa and everybody else, but um you know did they do a complete download of all of Assa's devices for for uh you know uh more than 10 year span? I'm not sure they did that. I'm not sure they reviewed it. On the civil side though, that they could request all of those uh digital forensics and say, "Hey, we need any emails, text messages, voicemails, internet searches uh for the past 20 years." And depends on what the judge would do. There probably be some limitations, but there might that might uncover information that the prosecutors either didn't seek or didn't look at or something like that. So, it's possible that more could come out and that it could be to the legal detriment of us.

[00:27:46]and help me also understand the civil lawsuit side against Victoria, the daughter who was, you know, at best an a mid- teenager when these crimes took place. How does that make her civily liable? Um, I mean, can you go after an underage kid for being civily liable for the murder of anyone?

[00:28:07]You can an underage person can have civil liability, but um under these circumstances, what are they saying that this daughter knew? What are they saying that she assisted with? I've read the complaint. It's pretty just sort of these vague accusations of of uh oh, all of these defendants were proximal to what happened and they allowed access to the premises and things like this, but there's nothing terribly specific in there. I just don't see how that daughter could could be looped in civily, criminally, or otherwise.

[00:28:40]>> And what are you going to get? They got nothing except the house they just remodeled that everyone wants to tear down. I mean, just >> I mean, I get the pain they're trying to get restitution for, but it's rough.

[00:28:49]>> Well, and I I I wonder with with Victoria, too. I mean, is this is the civil lawsuit kind of like let's throw a bunch of spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks? um like maybe Victoria will be, you know, taken off the lawsuit at some point if they're only going to find Assa to be uh viable to go at. I don't know. I mean, sometimes you see that where a lot of things are a lot of people are being sued at once and then as it processes through court, it's like, yeah, not her.

[00:29:18]She's really not part of this. But the other one does. I mean that also I mean it it also feels like a pretty weak suit if you're you're just kind of throwing everything at the wall and seeing what stakes and don't have any real clear solid uh information and you're just hoping that maybe you're going to find some stuff in discovery.

[00:29:35]>> Uh one thing I'm wondering along those lines, Tony, is you know Victoria's still pretty young in age. um she's dealt with this massive nationally publicized trauma regarding her family for quite some time now and now she's struck with a civil lawsuit uh you know requesting probably millions of dollars in damages that might freak out a young person and are they sort of betting on on the possibility that Victoria is going to get scared and she's going to do something uh abrupt and unpredictable that young people might do like like try to protect herself and and say oh gosh well you know if I give you information or if I make up information or something, am I gonna get out of this?

[00:30:15]Can I please move on with my life? How do I do that? Is it is it talking with you guys in an interview and telling you what you want to hear? Oh, if so, you know, me in my 20s, I I I need to be done with this. I could see a young person being scared into doing that. And perhaps that's sort of an intimidation tactic here on behalf of of Pliff's counsel. I can't say for sure, but but those things happen.

[00:30:38]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's there's a lot of roads that could be gone down here. Um, and and again, we're not saying Victoria had anything to do of anybody in this case. I I feel horrible for that young woman. I mean, I can't imagine I mean, this is the world she was brought into and she's, you know, trying to navigate this utter shitow.

[00:30:57]Um, so I mean, but but it does make sense. I mean, I I I'm wondering if if she is being used as a lever to get information, not so much as a way to let's go punish you, but let's scare the living [ __ ] out of you even more. Um, and and see what else you can tell us that that maybe she's even unaware that that she's may tell. Depositions could be very interesting uh in a case like this. um you know I if we get there uh with with this the what's in in the actual suit itself um is there a risk here that we don't even get that far that they don't even get to depositions that a judge at some point just says yeah no we're not even going to we're not going to go down this road unless you got something that that is showing us some solid [ __ ] uh we're not going to do it or or in in a civil case is it much easier to get into those deposition stages before the judge says yay or nay you know, um I would anticipate seeing a motion from defense to throw out some or all of these claims rather soon. Uh in reviewing them, you know, I look and we'll talk about this soon, but if like the adjusted Richmond claim, I think there are legal problems with the uh the civil conspiracy claim, there are legal problems just on the face of the complaint and and and that just don't meet the the that might not meet the threshold for the case to move forward.

[00:32:21]and I I could see a judge looking at it.

[00:32:23]And then, you know, you add in sort of the the dynamics of what's going on in the case and and all the national exposure. A judge might say, "Hey, I uh this this is going to stop here because it because of legal insufficiency." Uh that would not be shocking to me, especially after reading that complaint.

[00:32:40]>> Yeah. your thoughts in the comments section on Substack and YouTube on our conversation thus far on the Gilgo Beach killer Rex Herman and Assa and Victoria and the whole family and everybody that is uh experiencing the uh the hell that is uh that is this links are in the description. The judge said it out loud uh at the sentencing of Rex Herman eight that we know of. Herman owned property also in South Carolina had time shares in Las Vegas. Can you imagine being the time share salesperson like, "Hey, you want that free uh dinner over at the IHOP? You just got to come over here."

[00:33:19]And I wonder how many certificates Rex, can I get an extra one? I really like the pancakes. Um, but he had time shares. He had time shares in Las Vegas and investigators have looked at ties to Atlantic City as well. Some of those states execute people for what Herman did. Uh Eric Fattis, defense attorney, is with us to break down whether the number eight is where this ends or where it all starts. That plea deal uh of course protects him in Suffach County for these eight women. They're not going to be prosecuted again. It's done. Uh but if South Carolina finds a body connected to him, does that New York deal mean anything uh in in their courtroom should information come about?

[00:34:01]Um the only thing it would mean in my impression is that uh it'd be much more likely that Rex Herman would put to death if this infant Carolina case was provable because uh it certainly doesn't protect him in any form or fashion. If anything, it's just aggravating to the extent that he has been convicted of eight other murders. Oh, now we're on nine. Like I think at some point a jury and a judge might say, "Hey, um this can't go on forever. you you've got your chances and uh I I think it makes the death penalty way more likely.

[00:34:34]>> Resources are a big thing. How much incentive does does Carolina's or or any of these other areas where he he may have been hunting? Uh how much incentive do they have to put resources at at trying to connect Rex Herman to unsolved murders from decades ago when he's already locked up for eternity? I is is it something that that would be high in the priority list of somebody there? Um I I guess you know for the right reasons you can look at the well maybe if somebody's running for election and they they want to to crack a big case this would make some headlines but but is it worth it I guess in terms if if there's not that other lever and some other motive to to go after this case for South Carolina or another area to uh to spend the resources trying to connect those dots. You know, I think that those authorities and those other local would be remiss if they had significant leads and did not at least explore them. Uh, you know, although this although they would be cold cases, so those are extremely hard to investigate. All you know, your evidence has eroded, witnesses have died. It's it's it costs a ton of money to pursue that. But on the flip side, you have these convictions of Rex and you have sort of a modus operandi, a pattern uh that he has used to time and again to commit these similar atrocities. And if you can line up that pattern with evidence you find in your local, that makes it a lot that makes it significantly easier to pursue a conviction. So upsides and downsides, resources are certainly front of mind. Um but so are the optics of all this. And I don't think any authorities in those jurisdictions want to say, uh, yeah, this person died, but it was a long time ago. It's going to cost a lot of money. We're not going to look at them.

[00:36:20]>> So, can I'm curious about this one, Eric, because we haven't quite we haven't quite seen it in any of the cases we've covered before. So, say you have a family or a couple families in South Carolina or in Vegas or somewhere that, you know, have a private investigator. They're able to do their own investigation. and they're able to say that they believe that Rex was responsible for the death of their family member and the but South Carolina is not picking up as a criminal thing.

[00:36:50]Can they then go after Rex civily >> uh >> without a criminal case?

[00:36:56]>> But you're running into uh under those circumstances statute of limitations issues. Statute of limitations for civil claims are way uh shorter than than on the criminal side. They're usually like 3 years or something. And there are p tolling exceptions, but if you believe this guy did it, you would have to show like some newly discovered evidence that would renew the statute. It would it would be a tall order to to pursue that.

[00:37:21]>> I guess my question on that would be what attorney would take up that that case if there's not much to to to get out of it civily other than it's it's the you know, getting justice, the right thing to do, that sort of a thing. I mean, I get it, but but again, I mean, nobody works for free. Everybody needs to eat. Um, and that would be a lot of work.

[00:37:44]>> Well, marketing, you know, we we covered that. Yeah. I mean, I mean, if you're trying to get your name out there as a as a civil guy, as a defense attorney, and you're I mean, it's it's wouldn't be I mean, you're basically doing a pro bono, >> but you would get on everything. Yeah.

[00:37:59]You would really get a lot of uh attention that way. That is true. That's a lever to pull. Yeah.

[00:38:04]>> Yeah. Yeah, you would. You know, um, on the in the wrongful death context, most attorneys take those on what's called a contingency fee, meaning they only get paid a percentage of whatever the recovery is. This guy doesn't have any assets. They're not going to be able there would be no financial incentive for an attorney to do it. It would have to be some other motivation.

[00:38:23]the uh the DA called the FBI interviews uh that he's supposed to be doing uh with the uh the BAU uh eventually here from prison, the behavioral analysis unit. Academic, not investigative. Um so think if anybody's watching this going, "What is what is this all about?" Mind hunter. There you go. That's what they're talking about doing, just like the show. If Herman uh describes something in that room that matches an unsolved case in another state, can it be used if this is academic, not investigative? Is it is that just the the words being thrown into the ether right now, but they really hold no weight? Should Hume reveal something that nobody's expecting?

[00:39:05]>> Yeah. So, the FBI isn't writing a treatise or some legal scholarship that they're going to publish in some collegia journal or something. um that that's they could give whatever purported purpose that they want, but absolutely if the FBI acquires information that is useful in an investigation, there is nothing prohibiting them from using that. Even if they said, "Ah, it's not an investigation, guys. It's academic." Uh well, you stumbled upon evidence of a crime. uh at that juncture they would be uh perhaps duty bound to to continue to pursue that investigation despite whatever kind of pretext they they they wanted to label the interview as.

[00:39:47]>> Yeah. Because one of the things they're going to be going for in these interviews with him is his his life arc of methodology, how it evolved, how he stayed ahead of investigators, how he controlled his environment. and we know a decent amount about how he controlled Long Island, but he had different venues in which he lived. And so I they're definitely going to be very interested in the because remember he's he's got a sadistic fantasy world going on in his head and he was acting out on it in Long Island, but he also traveled these other locations. They're going to be very interested in did his modus operende of sadistic satisfaction transfer and morph into something different in these other locations. And so they're not going to say, "Hey, what'd you do in South Carolina?"

[00:40:32]They're going to say, "How did you play out this sadistic fantasy of yours throughout your life? How did that look?

[00:40:38]How did it evolve?" And so then they're going to be able to then look back and all the places he's lived and resided and vacationed and seeing if there's any fit there. And then they can even probe in there and because that's what they're really trying to do. Then you take that academic side and overlay it with operational things and then you reapply that new filter which is a profile to these cold cases and see if anything fits.

[00:41:01]>> Yeah, agreed.

[00:41:02]>> How do they get the information about his whereabouts over 30 years? I mean it's one thing you know in the last 10 15 it's a pretty good digital trail on almost everybody. Uh but you go before then it's it's harder to find records and things like that. How much information do they already have about all of those years uh of his life uh of where he was when he was? We know that he he had a time share out there. He had some property. There was different places he had these sort of things. uh in the investigation into where we got today uh in New York. Uh how how much do they know about when he was in the Carolinas or where when he was in in in other locations? I would imagine like forensic accounting might answer some of those questions to see where receipts are if you look at bank statements. Uh but like other than that, how do you how do you truly dig into that that type of data when it goes so far back to say you were here on this date? Uh h how does that how does that even that process even work to start getting some answers?

[00:42:11]>> Those investigators are going to have to get creative. Uh it is extremely difficult to investigate someone's whereabouts decades ago. Oh, heck. I If someone asked me where I was, you know, two Wednesdays ago at 6:45 p.m., I'd probably >> My credit card would tell you. That would be about it.

[00:42:28]>> Yeah. So, I I'll tell you, >> you know, so you got to look at that that see if there's a paper trail.

[00:42:33]Sometimes when it comes to property that there are, um, you know, ownership records, there are leases, there are things that are recorded with the clerk and recorder. Um, there are witnesses who, you know, perhaps next to the uh time share there is a house that's been there for 50 years and it's been in the same family. you go to that family, you talk to them, you know, are there any sort of polaroids that might have been found at Rex Hurman's location? You kind of have to get creative uh in those respects, but very difficult.

[00:42:59]>> I think that the greatest tool I had when I was able to go up on someone's information when tracking bad guys, when I had credit card statements, it was gold. That was my gold because that established timelines. It established places they they frequented. It established likes, interests, and and the travel we're talking about. And what's the benefit to all the investigators on this is what he looks like. And they've said it before, he's extremely recognizable. So you get a credit card statement goes because you can get credit card statements a long time. I mean there there's you can track this stuff for a very long time. You take a photograph, you go interview people at these locations and you start jogging memories through these interviews. you you they I think because of how he looks and how he behaved, you're going to have an easier time establishing timelines and locations than you will with more an average looking guy.

[00:43:48]>> That's a good point. I'd like to know more about these properties that he's owned uh or or the time shares because I could be wrong and and correct me if I am, but in all the things that we've we've viewed on this case and heard about this case, we've heard about these things existing, but we've never heard about anybody really frequenting them other than Rex, if you got the time share. We didn't hear anything about, oh, and then the family went to the time share. Uh I mean, maybe it's in there. I could be completely off and it just hasn't uh stood up. But I do find it interesting that oh, you know, her husband, dad's got this property, but nobody's ever going to it or or checking it out other than him. Weird dynamics, but the family is the definition of a weird dynamic. So, it probably could have been completely normal, but that that seems to be a little odd to me that that there wasn't like, oh, we love going to that time share every year or whatever.

[00:44:45]>> Of course. And you know, uh, in in most family dynamics, if if the family has some kind of vacation home or some sort or something like that, uh, or even like let's say they had like a jet ski and it was at some dock or some lake, you know, it' be weird if only one member of that family ever went and and utilized that and everyone else, you know, wouldn't the kids would say, "Hey, we want to go check out the jet ski." Wouldn't the wife say, "Hey, you know, does it need to be maintained? What's going on with that?" that's of shared financial interest. You would just think that those things would come up and it wouldn't be just one person going to this time share.

[00:45:20]>> Yeah.

[00:45:21]>> After he bought a bag, a chain, and an anchor from Home Depot and went out on the jet ski by himself.

[00:45:27]>> Yeah.

[00:45:27]>> The Scott Peterson special at the depot.

[00:45:29]>> That's what I was thinking. Yeah. And and I know people have been put in the in the comments as well. Yeah. With his DNA being encoded, there's also that chance also when you start overlapping potential DNA uh with cold cases. um is going back in time on those with credit card statements, with interviews, with photos. Um I think when it comes to possibility of hope of identifying more victims of his being associated with him, there's I think there's a higher probability with him than others because of that.

[00:45:58]>> I wonder I if there is how long it will take for those names to be identified, to be associated with him. I mean, ju just thinking back on other cases, you know, sometimes it's it's, you know, many years after they're already dead. I mean, 30, 40. But the thing is, a lot of that DNA from these cold cases, it's it's not it's not just like sitting in a digital file where they can just do a quick search and like let's match this to the like some of the I mean, those cases are literally archived physically somewhere. So someone has to take take the information, take the DNA, get it into the system and then that sort of of matching can be done. Uh and only then um so either that happens because they're going through the inventory and they're putting everything into the system as one big fail swoop or it's hey let's go grab this one. This seemed to happen around the time that we know he was here. Let's see if there's any matches. Well, the the challenge in this is, you know, the further south you go, you're dealing with decomposition of of people faster and and a little, you know, I think the areas to dispose of bodies are more um more vast, I guess, in South Carolina than in Long Island, New York. And then you have the desert environment in Vegas. So, I think getting DNA uh from victims and having victims identified in those areas might be more challenging than they were necessarily in Long Island. Um but because again, I think that's just one potential hurdle to faster rather than later. Eric, how do you think he's going to do in prison?

[00:47:35]Uh he's, you know, he's a very different personality than others. Is this one that goes into gen pop right away uh with his jovial attitude or is is he really in danger just because of the notoriety of who he is and and he would be a target uh for someone to to take down uh the the Gilgo Beach killer.

[00:47:55]You know, on that point, Tony, uh, I read a report indicating that another serial killer who's incarcerated, I don't I don't have >> happy face, >> the happy face.

[00:48:05]>> And I'm pretty sure that that he that this uh killer sent some kind of message or letter to Rex basically saying like, "Hey, uh, prison's going to be a problem for you. Like, I know you're a big dude, but it's a numbers game in prison. And you got to have allies. You got to have a crew." And uh I'm not sure that this kind of a um freak is going to be able to garner that kind of protection. In fact, I think the attention he's going to get is going to be the opposite of protection.

[00:48:35]>> You think he'll join a gang, Rex?

[00:48:38]>> No one would want him.

[00:48:40]>> Well, uh >> wonder what gang you would join.

[00:48:43]>> Yeah. Mly crew of weirdos.

[00:48:45]>> The tups of Long Island. It's just everybody has a toupe. Does he get to keep his toup pay in prison or or are they are they toup payless in prison?

[00:48:55]>> I can't say I've ever seen a person uh that I've I've known to wear a toupe to have that in in jail or prison. You know, in jail you got to uh you got to take out your piercings. Uh you know, permanent modifications that you've done to your body. Sometimes those are undone. And uh so I I doubt he's going to be able to keep that. We're going to see a very different looking Rex Herman in the coming uh weeks.

[00:49:19]>> I don't think I don't think he's going to be around long. I think he's going to I think he's going to die pretty rapidly in prison is my guess.

[00:49:24]>> A a selfexit uh or deletion or or is somebody going to hit control delete on him?

[00:49:30]>> I think his health I I really do. I mean he I mean he is a big guy and and he's he's he's got he's got a lot of rough years on him it looks like. Um I again I just don't think his health is the best. Thank At the end of the day, carbs are going to kill him.

[00:49:47]>> Yeah.

[00:49:48]>> Literally, it's like too much carbs, not enough protein. That took out the Gilgo Beach killer.

[00:49:53]>> Yeah. He's still in Suffach County cuz someone asked on where he's being housed right now. He's still in Suffach County uh custody right now.

[00:49:59]>> Yeah. There you go. Rex Herman sentenced. Your thoughts in the comments section on Substack and YouTube. We'd love to continue the conversation right there. All right. Until next time, Eric Fattis, thank you for being here. Robin Drake and for Todd, I'm Tony Brusski. We will talk again real soon.

[00:50:16]>> Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brusski and the Hidden Killers podcast.