Heath and Kristin discuss We Always Lived in the Shadows

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-18

[00:00:01]Oh, recording in progress. [laughter] >> Has to give you that heads up. I mean, that Let me let everybody in Fable know real quick what's going on. If you want to give like a breakdown of the book and what we're talking about and >> Yeah, sure.

[00:00:16]>> Maybe [snorts] I'll start with your >> everybody who's not here because we are terrible [laughter] at this. Um, another failure on our part.

[00:00:27]Our book, if you don't remember, is this one. We have always lived in the castle by the great Shirley Yaxon.

[00:00:37]We made the J silent. [laughter] Um, for a second there, I was like, is this this month's book or last month's book? And it is. It is actually this one. Uh, this is basically the story of Mary Cat. We're in Mary Cat's head. It's her POV, but it's about Mary Cat and her sister, um, Constance, and I guess their uncle, too, sort of, but he's much less important. But it's the story of these two young women who have had a family tragedy wherein their entire family is murdered. Or if we were in Shhatland, we'd say, "Mukduck."

[00:01:21][laughter] >> What?

[00:01:25]Where the hell that come from?

[00:01:27]>> That's how I say it. Mukduck.

[00:01:29]>> Okay.

[00:01:29]>> And >> at the beginning, you don't know who did it. What does the whole town thinks it was constants and they all hate them and they treat them terribly and they've become more and more isolated in this massive home that they live in because their family was quite wealthy. And the book kind of follows as they become progressively more um entrenched within the bounds of that home for a variety of reasons including the encroachment of a man.

[00:02:04]>> They are the devil.

[00:02:06][laughter] >> Nice. Nicely done. Threw me with the monk talk thing or whatever the hell that was. But >> um [laughter] all right. Um, >> hope nobody's from Shhatland [laughter] in our favor.

[00:02:20]>> I mean, who knows with this group?

[00:02:22]>> It's possible.

[00:02:24]Um, I'm just trying to Okay, now I know what the questions are. So, do you think the town really hated them or do you think that's something where Constants refused [snorts] to go into town and while you're in Marcat's head, she clearly doesn't like them.

[00:02:45]at all. Anyway, >> listen, talking about this, if we if because we are in her head, she's an unreliable narrator. There's no way for us to know what the truth is. It's just impossible. We can only deduce based on the the things that happened. I mean, you could even say, did the family get murdered? We don't even know if the family got murdered. They could have just spontaneously died because we're in we're we're in her head. Like, we don't we don't know.

[00:03:13]>> That's fair. So I have to like with any narrator like even with Steven's in last month's the two months ago's book I [clears throat] we've got to take some of the what she's saying is probably fact. It's probably true that she's going into town that they're saying horrible things about her sister. I mean yeah if this family was murdered which I'm going to assume that they were murdered and that she did it. um the town would have a bias against them of course and they would be horrible to them and it also I guess that part of it too and that's a that's a real detour. I'm not going to go there but um >> I I do think they hated them. Why wouldn't you? You would have a you'd be scared of them and they were girls and girls are the worst. So, you're going to like make fun of them and create these like monstrous ideas about who they are.

[00:04:10]And I I just think that's um definitely what has happened for them.

[00:04:19]>> A little bit like the uh practical magic aspect of it, how the town didn't like them because >> referencing Sandra Bulock and Nicole Kidman.

[00:04:29]>> Yeah.

[00:04:30]>> I don't I didn't read the book.

[00:04:31]>> I didn't read the book.

[00:04:33]>> No. No, no. So, the movie though, how the town hated them because they were witches.

[00:04:37]>> Yeah, those witches, they hate us.

[00:04:40]People hate us. Any reason that a man or a town or I guess women too could have to hate some odd women who aren't married?

[00:04:50]>> Hate them. Witches don't they're not married and they don't have kids. Ew, gross. [laughter] [gasps] >> Witch cackle.

[00:04:59]>> Yeah. Wow. Um, who where do I want to go with that question? Um, I had a question. I swear to God.

[00:05:10]Oh, do you see the comparisons like I do between her and Ann of Green Gables where I I think cuz you seem fascinated obviously by both characters, but both seem very adventurous. Both want to get out of the house. both want to be well the divergence is that Ann wants to be friends with almost everybody >> while Marcat wants to literally kill everyone.

[00:05:35]>> She [laughter] wanted to kill.

[00:05:40]>> So I mean there's a major split, >> but there's a lot >> similar to the two as well if you think about it.

[00:05:47]>> I would argue that maybe the similarity is childhood. The similarity is imagination and whimsy and interest in the world around them. Um, including the trees and the water and the leaves and the changing of the seasons and the personification of those things. But those are all childhood traits. That's the [clears throat] wonder of being a kid. Whereas an surely is able to grow up and her trauma doesn't define her.

[00:06:15]Whatever Mary Cat's trauma is, if she had trauma, I mean, that's another thing that we could debate.

[00:06:20]Um, but an has love and has support and is driven and she matures through it.

[00:06:30]She keeps her her kind of whimsical way of seeing the world, but she matures. She does let it go and then she has kids and she brings that into her own children's lives.

[00:06:42]>> Um, >> yeah, I've only read the first one.

[00:06:46]>> Yeah. So, it but she grows up. She she just she grows up >> whereas Mary Cat refuses to grow up. And I think there's there's a real danger in refusing to, you know, adult. Um >> I think that's going to be a permanent thing, too. Like I don't think she's ever gonna >> be on the point that she's at right now.

[00:07:07]>> I thought it was interesting that you didn't think Conscious is afraid of her.

[00:07:12]>> Well, I think I don't see the signs.

[00:07:15]Again, we come back into POV because you're in Mary Cat's POV. There's no way she could see fear in her sister because her sister is >> Constance. She's what who she is. She's perfect and she loves her and she thinks she's so cute.

[00:07:31]>> Um >> I think there's a little bit in the rules like there's a little bit of evidence in it in the rules where Con or Marat's not allowed to make food. She's not allowed to play with touch knives.

[00:07:43]She's not allowed to do all of these things that could lead to the death of definitely the death of their uncle, >> which you already know she's fine with him dying and then she lets him die in the fire. So does Constance, but then >> I don't know if they let him die. I think they were focused on something else entirely. But yeah, but he was Yeah, that was an interesting character, >> the uncle.

[00:08:07]>> Uhhuh. [clears throat] >> Because Well, I'm I I still don't understand. And I tried to listen to it twice. I I still don't understand why he thinks she's dead. Marriott.

[00:08:19]>> He says something.

[00:08:22]>> They're at the table with the cousin and the cousin brings up Marat.

[00:08:26]>> She died in the She died, right? She died in the thing, right? I remember. Do you remember what? Oh, you don't you weren't on pages because you were listening.

[00:08:35]>> Yeah.

[00:08:38]I buy the book and then I listen. um that just threw me cuz they never really come back to that. They never explain that and I didn't understand it.

[00:08:51]>> I wonder though if it's about him trying to he's clearly disconnected from reality.

[00:09:02]M >> um and and again, we don't fully know what happened, but we assume that she killed them, that he just wasn't killed within that. He's obsessed with documenting it and documenting what happened. And he talks about it all the time, and there's almost a weird joy in it for him. like that opening sequence feels like like he finds pleasure in um insettling people.

[00:09:36]>> Yeah. And what he can remember and >> Yeah.

[00:09:38]>> being able to to keep that and carry it throughout history. Like he he like you're saying he's >> he's obsessed with telling a story, but then he never actually does.

[00:09:51]>> Well, yeah. No. And he doesn't really know the whole story either, but he has this whole section in the beginning.

[00:09:59]The very very beginning when they have that guest that comes, I forget the character's name.

[00:10:08]>> Like the only woman in town. It doesn't seem >> Yeah. Who comes to see them?

[00:10:14]>> And then >> she got annoying after the fire. But go ahead.

[00:10:17]>> What's that? [laughter] >> No, she got annoying after the fire. But go ahead.

[00:10:21]>> After the fire. Yeah, when she was trying to help them, >> like just wouldn't leave when they clearly didn't want to have anything to do with it.

[00:10:29]>> Oh, I thought that that was sweet.

[00:10:32]>> But the husband's like trying to drag her away, which I have a question about the husband, too. I mean, I appreciate her trying to take care of them, but they've never wanted to they've never wanted that from the very beginning. They never wanted that. Like, they never left the house to be taken care of. They've always just existed by themselves. But you were talking about the uncle. I don't want to >> No, there but all of this feels like related to me. um where the uncle starts to because there's like look there's like a new person that's come in and there's there the there's sort of like zoo animals, you know, like ooh these people who >> one of them murdered the whole family and it's probably this one and blah blah blah. He [clears throat] he kind of stokes that flame a little bit and he enjoys >> getting a rise out of that person. And I I feel like that's the way that they are is that they're sort of like it's us against you. [ __ ] you. Sorry for the swearing.

[00:11:42]If if you see us this way as as um like a circus show, then we'll make you a circus show. This will be a circus show for you.

[00:11:53]>> And there's a defiance in that >> that I think the uncle has and so does uh so does Mary Cat. I think Constance is a different thing altogether because I do think based on what Mary Cat tells us, Constance does want to go back into the world. She wants to have a life. She wants to be out there, but she feels like she can't and she feels like it's not something that's allowed her. And I think she feels a burden of responsibility to take care of Mary Cat.

[00:12:25]Oh, and if Marcat's killed her entire family and every person she walks past, she wants to walk across their dead bodies, like >> she's also protecting the entire town around them.

[00:12:37]>> Yeah.

[00:12:38]>> From Marcat.

[00:12:39]>> But I also think that I I do feel like there's this weird thing where because we're inside Mary Cat's brain >> and yeah, she's homicidal a lot, but she's also so innocent.

[00:12:55]It's like this weird combination.

[00:12:58]>> Yeah.

[00:13:01]Well, I mean, do you I think it comes down to do sociopaths or psychopaths know they're that, >> right? Cuz even the fire she puts on Charles.

[00:13:13]>> Yeah.

[00:13:15]>> So, I don't know. And and what you're saying with the uncle and how they the town looked at them and how he kind of built like amped that up a little bit is exactly right because he was going through the details that you weren't even sure if he knew as far as like order of who died when and what they ate and blah blah blah. But like if you even before they get to the house in the very beginning and you're in her head, they already looked at the town like that before everyone died.

[00:13:41]>> So he already felt that way for towards them. now he just has this show to kind of present.

[00:13:46]>> Well, that's an interesting point because you're right. The the whole family because they were quite wealthy.

[00:13:54]>> Did hold the town at a distance. They were always at a distance from the town because I think because they were we don't know a lot about this because we don't exist in the world when the family is alive. But from everything we see, >> they're rich and they're isolated and no one was supposed to walk on their lawn.

[00:14:14]Nobody they didn't like it when they walked on their lawn. They didn't want them anywhere near them. And so having the town I mean and that's part of why the town turns against them. It's the way that people turn against anybody who I we do it with celebrities all the time. I suppose we this whole put them on a pedestal and then knock them off the pedestal kind of a thing. Find glee and joy in it. There's like a thick pleasure in that.

[00:14:40]>> Um and [clears throat] the town's like that too with them and it goes so far.

[00:14:45]And I think maybe I haven't even thought about this, but at the end when the town sort of switches, when they become pathetic, when they become sad and the town starts leaving food for them, it's like the power dynamic finally shifts enough >> that they feel guilty for everything that happened because now they have nothing. The house that was so beautiful and so epic with all their nice furnishings and finishings and blah blah blah, it's been decimated. And they know that there are these two women just living in a section of that house, boarded up, never leaving. And there's a there's I mean, yes, some of the kids make it witches and whatever, but people that know feel a certain amount of remorse about how they dealt with everything.

[00:15:30]It's also I like the comparison that you're laying out at the end with that kind of group mentality where they all just rage out after the fire is put out. Like >> cuz you see all the animosity that's built up to that point where they just completely lose their their [ __ ] and just decimate the house and not even really care whether they're alive or dead at that moment. and they know that Julian's dead and it doesn't phase any of them at all. They're kind of like they kind of take glee in it. So, it's definitely like there's guilt definitely at the end >> which you wouldn't think that they would ever Yeah. But you would never think that they would feel that at all for these people >> up until that point.

[00:16:14]>> Yeah.

[00:16:15]>> And if they still had anything, if they still had money, if they still had that house, if they still had anything, I don't know that there would have been space for that remorse.

[00:16:24]I wonder >> I wonder if they would have had that remorse if Julian had lived because he was kind of like old hat like he was he was kind of like you know what I mean that the status of that family >> and they were just young women one was a girl and I mean how old is America do they say >> that's the point that the that he makes at the end here Letham's afterward which is really really good um short but really good but he he makes a point that she is an adult.

[00:16:54]>> She's an adult, >> but she feels like a child, like perpetually stuck in childhood. Um, I thought he did such a good job of of discussing that.

[00:17:10]>> Yeah. I mean, even the cousin treats her like a child, Charles, >> cuz like threatening to like send her to her room without dinner. I mean, she kind of says that herself and puts it out there, but the way he wants to punish her and all these things like when he finds the buried silver dollars and they're not that's not her money, >> right?

[00:17:30]>> And how can she do that? First of all, that that was annoying cuz it wasn't his money. Like it whose money is that?

[00:17:36]Julian, >> right? Like, who is that actually? It belongs to the family. So, for him to say that it's not hers >> to bury was crazy.

[00:17:45]>> Um, but yeah, I don't know. I I I do think Constance I I can't say her name.

[00:17:54]Constants constants.

[00:17:57]I think I think she was she felt obligated to keep Marriott away from everyone else. I think it's weird that the fact that she was acquitted didn't change the town's opinion of her.

[00:18:14]Please people >> I mean I guess not but like >> people are always like this if they decide that you're guilty and you've been persecuted in and she's a woman I I feel like if she had married Charles and had a baby they would have forgiven her.

[00:18:29]>> But she's weird.

[00:18:31]>> They're weird and they're rich and they're you know there's lots of reasons to to turn it all on her.

[00:18:38]>> Yeah. I'm just going to read you this thing from um his after word here >> just to reference what we were talking about. So Mary Cat's voice uh >> um ingenuous defiant and razor alert is the book's triumph and the river along which this little fable of Mary disintegration flows despite despite declaring her 18 years in the first paragraph. Mary Cat feels younger. Her voice a kind of cousin to Frankie's and Carson McCull's the member of the wedding and Mattie's and Charles Portis' True Grit, an archetype of the feral pre-sexual tomboy. Mary Cat is far more disturbing though, precisely for being a grown woman. What's sublimated in her won't be resolved by adolescence.

[00:19:21]Indeed, typically for Jackson, sexuality is barely present in the book. And needless to say, sexuality is therefore everywhere in its absence, which I think is fascinating.

[00:19:32]>> Yeah.

[00:19:33]>> What's sublimated in her won't be resolved by adolescence.

[00:19:38]>> She won't change.

[00:19:40]>> Yeah.

[00:19:40]>> She will not she cannot. And that's why I think that the the Constance discussion about who Constance is is perhaps more complicated.

[00:19:51]Like I like the idea that she's afraid and she's protecting, but there's something else about their relationship that is weirdly complicit.

[00:20:03]And we could make up a whole bunch of stuff about what happened inside of that family and why those two sisters are so bound to each other. Yeah.

[00:20:13]>> And why they feel connected. But again, we'd be making up. We don't have any evidence to support any sort of But there is some It seems like something has happened.

[00:20:26]>> Like we don't have any kind of idea what kind of trauma could have >> froze Marriott in that specific moment in time where her head is at.

[00:20:35]>> Mhm.

[00:20:35]>> Yeah. [clears throat] and why her sister would be so >> precious with her constantly like, "Oh, you're the sweet. You're such a what a funny Mary cat. You're so funny."

[00:20:47]>> Like for everyone. Funny funny cat.

[00:20:49]>> I think the trope would be because she failed to protect her younger sister in whatever that moment was, right? So then she feels like obligated to do it.

[00:20:57]>> Yeah. Moving forward.

[00:20:58]>> But also, it feels like Mary Cat was there's a she has a vengeful quality to her. Absolutely. [laughter] >> She's a psychopath. She's >> I don't know if I would describe her as such, but yes, I guess >> she literally says, "I want to walk across the dead bodies of these people that she that are like mocking her or whatever." Which, okay, especially in that moment, I can understand it. She wants violence towards these people, but like anyone she saw in town, she wanted that. Like the people that came to visit, she wanted them to die. like Charles, >> anyone that that threatened this the what she perceived as the sanctity and the sameness of their existence, she out. And I feel like Uncle Julian was fine for her in their life because he didn't really threaten anything. He was >> He couldn't.

[00:21:48]>> He couldn't. Exactly.

[00:21:50]>> I mean, >> and he couldn't physically he couldn't.

[00:21:52]He was >> No. No. Exactly. That's what I mean.

[00:21:54]>> Yeah. So So it didn't really change anything in their lives. She did do something that like psychopaths do do though where she kept reminding herself that she had to act nicer to Julian >> throughout the book.

[00:22:08]>> Like I have to stop wanting to kill him and just she didn't outright say that.

[00:22:14]But she's just like I need to be nicer to him. I need to remember that Constance likes him and him being around and he's not so bad because he can't [ __ ] up our dynamic.

[00:22:23]>> Yeah.

[00:22:24]>> Right. But she like keeps like she says it like six times in the book that she keeps reminding herself she has to be nicer to him. Um which is funny.

[00:22:33]>> The there was a a stark turn for the Jim Cullen I think was his last name character. The one that was the fire chief.

[00:22:41]>> The one that at the beginning mocked her for moving >> and then comes and saves the house. But the second he took off the fire chief hat, he picked up a rock and turned around and threw it through a window, which was crazy to me. Like, you just risked your life to stop this fire, >> you ran in without hesitation, and then the second it's over.

[00:23:02]>> Yeah. But I feel like the town's anger toward this family was real. And sometimes that feeling is so intense that you have to like let it out. But he felt guilt about it because he came back, right? He was one of the ones who came back.

[00:23:18]>> I think I think Isn't his is his wife the one I didn't get all the way to the end of the of the re listen. Is his wife the one that kept trying to get them out? Cuz I feel like he was the husband.

[00:23:31]>> I don't remember.

[00:23:33]>> Which really threw me off if I'm right.

[00:23:36]That's what it really threw me off from the beginning and her mocking. I mean, again, you're in Marriott's head, so you don't know the tone in which he's saying it, but like when he's like, "I heard you're moving. Are you moving?" "Oh, too bad. I thought you were moving." Blah, blah, blah. Like, you don't know if he's saying that like, "Too bad. I thought you were moving." As in like, "I thought Constance was finally going to get out of the house." If his wife is the one that continues to visit them and he knows, you know, vicariously through her >> that Constance does want to be out and >> I just I see it here. So Helen Clark is the tea lady >> and her husband Jim Clark.

[00:24:13]>> Oh, Clark. Okay.

[00:24:15]>> Yeah.

[00:24:16]>> Okay.

[00:24:17]>> Cuz >> cuz he says to her I'm sure. So no, Helen says, "But I'm sure they misunderstood the people last night. I'm sure Constance was upset and I must tell them that nobody meant any harm. Constance, listen to me, please.

[00:24:34]We want you and Mary Catherine to come to our house until we can decide what to do with you. Everything's all right.

[00:24:39]Really, it is. We're going to forget all about it.

[00:24:43]Like, they're trying to get them to like emerge.

[00:24:50]>> It's quite fascinating how much she's committed Helen. I mean, >> yeah.

[00:24:55]>> To helping them >> and hearing it said out loud, I I understand where you think it was sweet.

[00:25:01]My thing is like how do you misunderstand what happened?

[00:25:06]You know what I mean? Like how where's the misunderstanding?

[00:25:09]>> Understanding I think cuz remember we're looking at it through [clears throat] through our characters p perspectives >> and we're complicit within that perspective. But I think Helen saw what these girls and especially what Constants went through and sees and feels a responsibility to help them break free of whatever this is.

[00:25:37]>> It's it's not just about choice because yes it they are adults and this is their choice. It's their free will whatever and just listen to their boundaries.

[00:25:46]But when the boundaries are being made from a place of clear dysfunction, I think there are people in the world who want to help people through that dysfunction. I mean, Constance, after everything that's happened, she literally says, "It was all my fault."

[00:26:05]She said, "Somehow it was all my fault."

[00:26:08]She takes on all of the burden. And I think that Helen sees that. I don't know that Helen cares as much about Mary Catherine.

[00:26:17]>> Oh, no. I don't >> She worries about constants.

[00:26:21]>> I think she probably knows the truth. If the truth is that Mary Cat killed him, I think she probably knows that having known this family for as long as she seemingly has. And she clearly knew Constance before >> she locked herself away. Otherwise, why would she care about this woman?

[00:26:37]>> Yeah. So, I mean, I can understand why Constants would say it's her fault since maybe she's the one that taught Merrick had all the poisons. May, you know, maybe she gave her the ammunition to pull off what what she did. Um maybe she has a she obviously has survivors guilt of being one of the few family members that survived it and clearly was pointed out like pinpointed to be the survivor of the group. You know I mean that I mean I can't even imagine what that must weigh on a person.

[00:27:12]>> Yeah. And I think I think that the that kind of a response though I imagine is the way she's always been.

[00:27:20]She's always taken on the burden of things, always made it about her failures, and she then is at service to everybody because she's making up for whatever perceived failing she has. And Mary Cat can thrive on that because she's constantly her Mary Cat's own failings can be put onto. Not that Mary Cat's putting them onto Constance, but because Constance takes them on, then Mary Cat's always this little kid in her mind who needs to be taken care of. It's a really [ __ ] up dynamic between the two of them >> where Constance Constants could be saved >> if she was taken out of the environment if she was allowed to go into the world and grow up.

[00:28:09]>> Mhm.

[00:28:09]>> But she can't. She doesn't have She's too bound to her family, I think.

[00:28:18]>> Do you think that's why she put up with Charles? because he he very quickly became doineering, controlling. He very quickly wanted to like basically determine what she did every minute of every day to where he was like, "Well, you can't spend time taking care of Julian here because you have to do this and you have to do this and and this and this and this." And she put up with that. And like do you think that's because she she saw him as a way out or to protect him from Marriott or like there's so many different versions >> way out?

[00:28:55]>> Yeah.

[00:28:56]>> I think she wants that. I think in her heart of hearts she would love to go and be free and have her own life and be free to to become a woman >> not at service to everybody around her.

[00:29:12]and he is like the symbol of that potentiality, but he's an [ __ ] And so it's like an impossible path. And it also makes it very easy for Mary Cat to shut the whole thing down.

[00:29:30]>> Yeah. If he had come in >> Yeah. No, but I see in Constance in those moments like the the temptation the temptation of that choice even though he's such a crappy human being there's still a temptation there.

[00:29:49]>> Well, I mean any any you look towards any light >> to get you out of the [ __ ] you're in, right? No, even if it's terrible and you know you're going to be miserable, it's a different kind of misery, I guess. And she was really open to pretty much anything.

[00:30:05]>> I think cuz when the fire took place, you saw where his loyalty lied. It was get the safe. Get the safe. He didn't care where they were. He didn't care about >> his loyalty was the money. His loyalty was always the money.

[00:30:17]>> Yeah. That's why he freaked out about the silver dollars being buried because it's silver dollars not in his pocket and the scarf. I could have worn this if it wasn't ruined and all of this stuff was like he was so >> always the money.

[00:30:30]>> Yeah. So materialistic it was insane >> and he would have harmed her in the end.

[00:30:34]Constance I mean >> and so she was protected but like when you're one way out that presents itself to you is so terri like so awful then you I think it's very easy especially being the kind of person constants is is to just give up on all hope. Like if that's what it is, then I don't want that. This life I have with Mary Cat is way better than that life. That life is scary and dangerous and there are people that are going to come after me and harm me and I'm not safe. So So where am I the safest? I'm the safest here with this crazy lady.

[00:31:11][laughter] >> At least she knows how to handle that situation.

[00:31:16]>> True. And eventually Julian wouldn't have been a burden either.

[00:31:22]So then who knows what happens after that because that that was obviously also something another weight keeping her in the house.

[00:31:30]So if whenever he passed or Marikat killed him one whichever came first.

[00:31:36]>> Yeah. [laughter] >> I don't know. Um what do you think of this book? What do you think of our protagonists in comparison between this and remains of the day between her and Stevens?

[00:31:52]>> They're very different characters, both very much in their own heads, and we're watching their constructions, their internal constructions.

[00:32:00]Um, what's fun for me about this book is that Mary Cat is holy bananas.

[00:32:09]She is [laughter] She is wild. Yeah, >> she's a wild character who represents all of these, I think, very impish desires and impulses that we really tamp down on cuz when you're little, you sometimes these things come up. There are these feelings and you just don't know how to. But you as you grow up hopefully you learn to handle your emotions to interpret them to understand them to do what Stevens does which he is on the extreme end of the other where everything is very much managed by a system that is societally imposed >> wherein he structures his life around that imposition of society so that he does everything correctly within those rules. Mary Cat's like uh f the rules.

[00:32:57]This is my crazy world. You are all insane. I have found the way through.

[00:33:03]These are my traditions and my my um like devotions and my superstitions and there's something about that construction of reality that is but but they are the same in that they hold their worlds. I mean we're all I suppose we're all this way.

[00:33:25]We hold our worlds in place with certain constructions and we justify our behaviors with those constructions.

[00:33:34]Um, I feel like Stevens is more relatable probably. [snorts] >> Well, I don't not I don't think not for you. I don't think that you relate to him because of who he was. I mean, I'm not saying you relate to America.

[00:33:51]relatable in that >> she's she's unhinged. That's why it's fun to read.

[00:33:57]>> Well, yeah, she >> her voice is wholly unique.

[00:34:01]>> I mean, you're in a you're I think if you're in anyone's head, you would hear some of the [ __ ] that she says, right?

[00:34:07]Because you don't have that societal con constraint, right? But like you get to exist in that the whole time and you get to exist in in the head of someone who's saying the things that you might want to say in those moments but obviously never would especially if you're Stevens for example but they're both both characters are frozen >> in time and while Stevens will never like it seems like he'll never think a bad thought towards anyone even when his his boss was working with the Germans.

[00:34:41]He wouldn't think evil towards anyone.

[00:34:43]Whereas Marriott seems to only think positively about Constance and even Yeah. and even has to like work to think positively towards Julian and remind herself to do so. Like >> there >> and she thinks positively toward her cat. But it's funny that it's a cat.

[00:34:59]>> Is the cat alive?

[00:35:01]>> I think so. But cats to me maybe not. I don't know. I didn't really look for evidence of it being alive or not. the I guess the the cats are known for being well feral. They're known for doing what they want, for like not um bowing down to anyone in particular. They follow their whims. They follow the sun. They bask in the rays. They hunt when they feel. There's a certain wild freess to them.

[00:35:30]>> They love you when they want you.

[00:35:32]>> Yeah. Exactly. Love me. Love me.

[00:35:34][laughter] >> Yeah. Um, there was something else here. This is a slight detour backwards.

[00:35:41]>> That's fine.

[00:35:41]>> But again, the afterward, it was just a smart afterward. He says here, because we talked a bit about this, um, he talks about how sex is sublimated is a sublimated subject that that Shirley Jackson, I mean, Charles represents men and he is wholly crushed. Um but she he also mentions here that class is the other part and we talked about this but he says here in Castle the imperious eccentric Blackwoods are conscious of their snobbery toward the village and conscious too of how the persecution they suffer confirms their elevated self-image because they are persecuted. It it it enhances the belief that they are special.

[00:36:25]>> It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:36:27]>> Yeah. this persecution um uh proves >> they put themselves in a position to be persecuted because of how they treat everyone else. And then when everyone treats in that way, it just >> Yeah, totally.

[00:36:42]>> Yeah.

[00:36:44]>> Um wait, I just want to keep reading this one part. The double confession of culpability is typical of the snares in Jackson's design. For many of her characters, to revel in injury is a form of exultation. And to suffer exile from d from drably conformist groups or families is not only an implicit moral victory, but a form of bohemian oneupmanship as well. We have always lived in the outcastle and we wouldn't [clears throat] want it any other way.

[00:37:12]Jackson, a famous mother and a tormented daughter, also encoded in her novel an unresolved argument about child rearing.

[00:37:20]When at the height of her crisis, Mary Cat retreats to the summer house and imaginative imaginatively repopulates the family table with her murdered parents. They indulge her. Mary Catherine should have everything she wants, my dear. Our most loved daughter [laughter] must have anything [clears throat] she likes. Mary Catherine is never to be punished. And he goes on and on. But I think that's so fascinating because there is in the text here as much as this these two are like odd.

[00:37:56]You do feel because you're in her head, Mary Cat's head. I do feel when I read it a bit of like screw the town. Who are these [laughter] people?

[00:38:08]>> A little bit of that. She like basically she screams that basically in her head.

[00:38:12]I feel it like I can >> Okay.

[00:38:14]>> I can feel the the desire to be other, >> to be okay with being other, >> to not feel the need to conform and to entrench myself in my otherness when people attack me for being other.

[00:38:33]>> Yeah.

[00:38:35]>> Now, otherness is maybe murder, but [laughter] >> it's absolutely murder.

[00:38:42]No, I mean I I hear you and maybe that's why Helen trying to get them to come out of the house and con and conform kind of sat wrong with me also because they were existing as themselves in the way that they I mean I don't know if Constants necessarily wanted to but the way that they wanted to exist isolated like that in their own little world without having to conform to everybody else and I do that a I sometimes I get the need that I feel like I need to be out with people, but usually I'm like I'm totally good being by myself and reading or doing a puzzle or writing or whatever and just or just walking outside and being fine with that. Like >> and [clears throat] then sometimes people will be like, "Well, what's wrong?" Like there doesn't have to be anything wrong. Like you don't have to exist in a group of people to feel normal. And it's not always normal to do that. Like, don't you want to know who you are without everyone else around you? And like, that kind of feels like how they live all the time.

[00:39:46]>> Yeah.

[00:39:46]>> And it's kind of sad that people that don't know who they are when they don't exist with either their family or friends or everyone around them because then at what point do you find yourself, which is crazy. Like, Marcat's bat [ __ ] nuts. She is who she is and she knows who she is.

[00:40:07]Constance, I don't think she has any idea who she is.

[00:40:10]>> No, no. Constance Constance is bound by I feel Constance's trauma more than I feel Mary Cat's trauma if she has trauma. And that's why we can debate this idea of trauma. Did something happen to them? Was the family dangerous in some way? But I I do love Letham's argument that really it's about how, you know, Mary Cat was maybe told that she was special, that she never built a moral spine because because she was indulged.

[00:40:41]>> And there's something to that argument as well, that indulgence that maybe on a whim she was like, you know what? I'm sick of these people. I'm just going to kill them. You know, like that's also >> that's [ __ ] terrifying. [laughter] That's worse in so many ways.

[00:40:56]>> 100%. And that's why I think it's harder for us to live with that possibility that she was like, but I we're in her head. It's entirely possible that they annoyed her that day and she was like, "You know what? I'm just going to put some poison in their thing." And she doesn't really understand death, the the like finality of that.

[00:41:16]Sorry.

[00:41:19]>> Are you still there?

[00:41:20]>> Yeah, I'm here.

[00:41:22]>> I'm trying to find you. My >> you didn't >> I got >> you didn't freeze.

[00:41:26]>> Oh, >> someone called me and I don't know where you went.

[00:41:32]>> I'm still here. So, no worries.

[00:41:34]>> I just can't find you cuz I have so many tabs open. [laughter] >> You're a busy person.

[00:41:40]>> Yeah. Well, am I? No. I'm just writing a comic book and thus I don't know where you went.

[00:41:51]Yes, I I know who's participating.

[00:41:53]>> What are you on the iPad?

[00:41:55]>> What?

[00:41:56]>> Are you on the iPad? Okay. Hello. Um, one thing I did want to touch on and then we can get to some questions. Um, >> hurry up. We got to hurry now.

[00:42:06]>> Okay. Um, [laughter] because you said you liked uh, Housekeeping so much, I read it. We'll listen to it. Did you I mean, I don't know how long ago it was, and I know you don't retain a lot of this, but like >> I really don't. the fact that it was basically the same setup, the two girls or two women and then ends with a fire.

[00:42:28]>> Yeah, >> much the same way.

[00:42:29]>> I feel like it was it was a it's a different exploration. Um I'm actually flirting with the idea of choosing Gilead, one of her other books, as a book club book. I I haven't read it yet because but I loved Housekeeping. I thought it was slow and gorgeous and thoughtful, >> but it wasn't about the same sort of ideas that we've been exploring from what I recall.

[00:42:57]>> No, no, it definitely wasn't. Um, I just found those similarities uh interesting and maybe because I had gone one directly to the other, right?

[00:43:08]>> And I was like, "Oh [ __ ] this ends in like a very similar way." But >> yeah, and I don't think Marilyn Robinson would have been reading a ton of Shirley Jackson because Marilyn's like super religious. She's that's that's her >> she's a gorgeous thinker and she's I think Christian. Um and she went to you know divinity school. A divinity is that the right word? Anyway, you know the Christian I know >> I know what you're talking about. Yeah.

[00:43:35]>> Um >> I know what you mean. But she's a beautiful thinker and I find I find her writing just to be luminous and and stunning.

[00:43:46]>> Very reminiscent of of classic writers >> where, you know, language mattered much more than it does now.

[00:43:54]>> I'll agree with that. Um, okay. Some questions.

[00:43:57]>> Yeah. Uh, Kelsey asks, uh, and it what did Julian, Charles, and Jonas represent to you, Heath and Christristen?

[00:44:10]>> Julian, Jonas, and Charles. So, the cat, the >> uncle and the cousin, >> and the the [ __ ] >> Um, I don't know. I talked a little bit about Jonas.

[00:44:23]>> Jonas is the wildness. Jonas is like full animal nature full if we assume that animals don't carry like a a morality in the human sense they don't seem to they seem to be much more at least they don't seem to call it a morality um >> but I think that's what Jonas is and he's like her he's sort of like her spirit I think >> I could see that I can also see how it's also the only member of the family that's free can come and go and does >> all the time whenever he wants.

[00:44:58]>> Um, as far as Julian, I don't know. He just felt like he felt like another anchor to me for content.

[00:45:08]>> I think you also said before he he's sort of a representation of the old guard. He is the Blackwood family >> in and he carries some of the recollections of the Blackwood family and their their ways of being that I think will be lost with the two girls as time goes by. Yeah, I think if he wasn't there, I don't think there was there would have been as much hatred retained by the town. Um, and then Charles is just he's the antagonist in my opinion.

[00:45:35]He's even though technically kind of Marcat's the killer, he's to me Charles is clearly the antagonist and >> the intruder out. And I and I like I said before and I agree with um I agree with Letham's afterward about this. He represents sexuality and masculinity and adulthood and he is a threat to their I mean their girlhood, their their lives and he he is the encroaching um because Julian doesn't represent masculinity.

[00:46:09]Um Charles represents masculinity.

[00:46:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's full-blown massaging.

[00:46:18]>> He is. Yeah, he is the worst of I mean I think I feel like that's how Shirley Jackson probably thought about a lot of I mean growing up in the time when they grow I mean yeah that the roles that women were asked to fill um that men demanded women to fill >> and we still have that a lot in America obviously and in other countries um and it exists there's that rising movement toward those traditional roles again, but it is a very limited space and I imagine a woman like Shirley Jackson would bulk at that.

[00:46:57]>> No, I I agree with you. I think um I think we touched on Alani's question, which is why does Uncle Julian believe Marriott is dead? I don't think we really have a theory for that. Um >> unless it's >> I feel like that'd be a fun thing to really think about deeply. I I just haven't had the chance to do it.

[00:47:19]>> I mean, there's a reason she put that in there. And I I think he says it more than once and then they even argue about it.

[00:47:26]Charles even argues about it. He's like, "She's right there. What are you talking about?" Like is is he so like is he so far along in his dementia, which he clearly has. Maybe it's from the poisoning. Maybe it was going to happen regardless that he just people just lose people at a certain point in those diseases.

[00:47:47]>> I would love it. I would love it if Mary Cat actually didn't exist and it was all just a part of Constance. that all of this that Mary Cat was like a fragment of Constance's psyche >> because Mary Cat doesn't get referenced that often by anybody else. And the only reason I would that I feel like that can't be true is a we're in Mary Cat's perspective. B she goes into town and has experiences separate from constants.

[00:48:16]And I don't know that there's any evidence to suggest that they're one and the same. But >> well, I mean those would be solved.

[00:48:22]those issu those particular issues would be solved just by split personality disorder and I know it has a more technical term now but I don't remember it multiple whatever anyway because if you could if it is all constants and you are in her head it could be one or the other right you could she would always be in inside her own head looking out at what constance is because that's how that disease works right you're always multiple people within your own mind and you don't think you're the same person >> right >> so So that could that could be solved.

[00:48:52]Where it kind of where it all crumbles is Charles referring to her and having conversations with her with Constance also in the scene.

[00:49:00]>> But that would have been cool if that was what she set out to do and pulled that off.

[00:49:06]>> No, but if Charles didn't directly reference her >> being there in the same room with the other ones. I mean, you could have argued that point that's what it was. I wonder if it's a I wonder if it's a just, you know, the idea of so and so is dead to me. They're dead to me.

[00:49:23]>> Oh, that could be it, too, because he knows what she did.

[00:49:27]>> No, that could absolutely be it. And he the other thing like going back to Constance not necessarily trusting Marat. She's also not allowed in Julian's room.

[00:49:38]>> Yes. Exactly. Yeah. She knows she knows Mary. She knows what she's capable of.

[00:49:45]She just knows. So she's removing the >> the what?

[00:49:51]>> That was also weird where she refused to go into that room even after Julian was dead.

[00:49:57]>> Marcat would not break that rule and go into that room even though Julian was no longer alive.

[00:50:03]>> That's true.

[00:50:03]>> Weird.

[00:50:04]>> Like I don't know. I don't know why. But um >> this stuff is so fun. Just so everyone knows, I I realize that I keep picking these books that are like in people's heads, but it's so I think this is why I like acting. Just I just love understanding these characters. It's just so much fun to me. Um they're not normally plotty books, but I just they're fascinating people. [laughter] >> Who are these weirdos? What is going on?

[00:50:33]Personally, I I think it's it's a lot easier to get in deeper because you're dealing with someone's psyche directly >> as opposed to third person stories where, you know, you're getting thoughts secondhand or basically hearsay. You know what I mean? I I prefer these type of books. So, I'm not complaining and I don't think anybody else is either.

[00:50:55]Like, >> I'm I'm thrilled. Listen, [laughter] >> absolutely.

[00:51:00]And that's all that matters when it comes down to it. Um, >> okay. Next question.

[00:51:04]>> Okay. I don't know how many more of these you want to do, but >> uh cuz there's quite a few.

[00:51:09]>> Oh, no.

[00:51:11]>> Realistic novel. Uh do you think it's a realistic novel?

[00:51:14]>> Really?

[00:51:14]>> Does the story remind you of any real event? I think this story could happen back in the day.

[00:51:20]>> Maybe, but it's definitely heightened.

[00:51:22]It's not um purely realistic. I think there are aspects of it like could you really live in this place and never go out to get food? I mean, they leave them food, so that solves some of it. And they've got that big storage, >> that storage not touched.

[00:51:38]>> They make a point of the basement is full of preserved food. Yeah. Like, so I think that's where she kind of tries to paint that picture where it could realistically happen.

[00:51:47]>> And they have their garden in the back still, I think. So, >> yeah. I don't know what the hell just happened.

[00:51:55]That was weird. My whole screen just went black. Um, if the to if the story were told from the perspective of the town, the community that hates them, what do you think you would learn about Marraat and Constants? I mean, I think we kind of touched on that.

[00:52:10]>> I think we did, too. And I don't know what you could learn from the outside.

[00:52:14]You might hear about the family more. We might know more about the Blackwoods themselves and all the gossip and rumors about the Blackwood family and the, >> you know, where the money. Yeah. um and what they did with the money and all that kind of stuff.

[00:52:29]>> Why they hate them >> and then a bunch of conjecture about what actually happened at the dinner.

[00:52:34]Yeah. Um if the story were told through conscious's eyes, would she seem stronger, more passive, or more complex than you perceive from Marriott's point of view? That's a good question.

[00:52:45]>> Uh well, since we are only speculating about who she is, and she could be so many different things. No matter what, it'd be more complicated. She'd be a more complicated person. We'd see >> her grappling with things. We'd understand more what was happening with Charles and how she was feeling and >> what she feels about the fire and what she feels about stay like we just know all those things. Whereas Marcat's like, "Isn't our life great? This is so perfect." I don't know that Constance feels the same way, but we won't. Yeah.

[00:53:14]>> Do you think if we were in her head like as the fire was happening and especially after that she would have been like, "I'm done. Like I surrender.

[00:53:24]This is like I'm just going to exist here in this moment with America and that's all I'm going to do. Like that's who I am and I'm never going to be anything or anyone else with anything else. like, >> well, yeah, if we really put ourselves in that her position and we're in that house and we've been stuck in that house for a long time >> and we've been yelled at and people have called us names and they've like thrown [ __ ] out the windows and then when they have the opportunity, they they destroy everything and ruin the living room and ruin everything and yell and would we ever want to leave? It's not safe out there.

[00:54:03]>> No. Well, I mean, you see it's you kind of see that now.

[00:54:08]>> Yeah.

[00:54:08]>> Like it's exactly what it is now on a on a global scale, which is terrifying. Um, title of the book is we have always lived in a castle. What does it mean that the author chose the word always?

[00:54:22]I think we touched on this too >> is um is the Blackwood isolation also.

[00:54:31]>> I think is that they've they've been isolated and the castle is also an internal place I think.

[00:54:39]>> Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. I was like I was going to ask do you think the castle is literally the house or do you think it's like the fact that they just live fortified kind of not only as a family but themselves?

[00:54:52]>> Yes, I think it's both and the house represents that.

[00:54:54]>> Okay. That's why I like um house stories and haunted house stories and like I went through a big phase where it was all and this was part of that phase where >> I find that really the representation of the home as mind and as connect. Anyway, I think it's interesting.

[00:55:14]>> Yeah, I loved um Mat's hell house and the exploration of that whole >> dynamic of the people in there. Um, >> El House's the one was that the one where it was haunted.

[00:55:27]There's like there was that other Anyway, we don't have to get into it.

[00:55:30][clears throat] >> He's just he's one of my favorite authors in general. Um, who do you think is putting up the bigger psychological shield or living the more tragic life? Maracat being more free and external about it with bearing items and doing chance or Constants being more trapped or etern internal with being >> I think proper tragic figure by far.

[00:55:54]So sad. Yeah.

[00:55:55]>> Yeah. I don't think it's close at all.

[00:55:57]>> Yeah.

[00:55:57]>> Um then there's a bunch of discussion about it being a German adaptation between Oliver and Mark.

[00:56:04]>> Oh, cool.

[00:56:05]>> Um I think they mean the movie, too.

[00:56:09]It would be cool if you can discuss how the Blackwood socioeconomic situation caused isolation. We already did. We already talked about that. Yeah, that's so important to the story and I think to Shirley Jackson herself like when we look at her themes although I was it like that in We Have Always Lived in the Castle by the It was like that the haunting of Hill House because that book is excellent.

[00:56:30]>> Yeah, I love that book. That's an amazing book.

[00:56:32]>> Great book.

[00:56:32]>> I wish he wrote more.

[00:56:35]>> I haven't read the lottery which is shocking. I should read The Lottery. You would think since you love books in general and her writing clearly.

[00:56:42]>> Um, might want to get on that, Miss Group.

[00:56:45]>> I think I have it. I have it somewhere.

[00:56:47]>> Uh, do you think Constants would have been able to take a step into getting Uncle Julian and Marcat the help they needed if Charles was a caring family?

[00:56:55]Yeah, if he was a better man.

[00:56:56]>> If he was a better man, I think that would have although we don't know what Mary Cat would have done in that circumstance. If he was a better man, I >> he would have been killed probably.

[00:57:05]>> I think so, too.

[00:57:08]I think that's >> if that's your answer, how can you think she's not a serial killer?

[00:57:13]>> Well, she is, but she's also like a weird feral being.

[00:57:18]I can't see her as like she's just like like what do you do with a person like that?

[00:57:25]>> What >> with that? How do you deal with her? She needs help. And that's right. This is whoever asked this question like yes, Mary Cat [ __ ] She needs help. Yes, >> she needs intense meds and therapy and Yes.

[00:57:38]>> Yes.

[00:57:38]>> Yes.

[00:57:39]>> But even that, I don't know. Maybe she's just a crazy fairy creature who's like the >> Because the good people are like that, too, aren't they? They're a little bit >> mischievous. They don't have the same rules around human life. [laughter] >> Well, they I mean, the good people in that town, >> you disappeared. Yeah, I got a spam call, too. Apparently, we just had that going on, apparently. Um, the good people in town, they went completely batshit. Didn't care if they were dead and just decimated their house.

[00:58:14]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:58:15]>> So, there's no real true good in in this story because even Constance's covers for Marriott and what she did, >> right? So, >> no, >> moral purity is non-existent.

[00:58:28]>> No. And I think any book that has it is a terrible book. Most likely.

[00:58:32]>> Yeah. It's not true.

[00:58:33]>> No. At all.

[00:58:35]>> Um, >> it's not the nature of who we are as people.

[00:58:38]>> No. But you saying that Marriott just killed him on a whim is terrifying to think about.

[00:58:44]>> I know. It terrified me, too. But I almost think it's if if Constance wasn't so broken, then I would think that was more likely.

[00:58:54]Constance is so broken that I'm unsure cuz she feels so fragile that there must have been something that happened beyond just um it could just be that her whole family was murdered by her sister. That could be the thing that did it. But I it feels like something else.

[00:59:12]>> Yeah.

[00:59:14]I mean well I wonder if that like we didn't even really touch on that and we don't need to get into it now. Um, but I wonder if if the idea of it actually being constants all along that did it.

[00:59:28]>> Yeah.

[00:59:28]>> And Marcat just that's how she's dealt with it is she's just >> That's interesting too. Like maybe it was like I did it.

[00:59:36]>> I did it.

[00:59:38]>> Yeah.

[00:59:39]>> Which would be interesting too >> cuz she doesn't want to point too. I was like, well, maybe it it's just that she confesses it, >> but she makes constants like this angel.

[00:59:50]>> She does. Yeah.

[00:59:51]>> Right. So, why not take that on? And then she kind of exists mentally >> before the dinner the entire time.

[01:00:00]>> Yeah.

[01:00:01]>> Cuz it seems like the the age where she was sent up to without dinner >> is the age that she's frozen in.

[01:00:07]>> Yeah. So, you know, her wanting to hold constants on that pedestal.

[01:00:14]>> Well, or in a more generous take maybe because she wants to protect Constants.

[01:00:20]She knows that Constants can't hold that and so she holds it for her because she's wild and she's feral and she's >> doesn't really affect her self-image or her view of herself because she's >> she's free that way. her brain can wander into any terrain and it doesn't >> throw up red flags or you know >> could also be why she's so insistent on killing everyone but doesn't actually do it >> right. Yes, this is true. But she did she did start the fire.

[01:00:50]>> She did. But both Constants and Marcat put it on Charles cuz Constance immediately says, "Oh, your pipe."

[01:00:59]>> Yeah. And then Marcat literally says, "This is Charles's fire."

[01:01:04]>> I actually went back to double check. It was Mary Cat, right? Or are we unclear?

[01:01:08]And it could have been the >> I believe it's she went up into his room and she points out like she makes it a point of pointing out that the the pipe, so it had to be her. And she wanted him out and she thought that was the answer.

[01:01:23]>> Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah.

[01:01:24]>> The fact that neither one of them tried to save Julian's a little weird.

[01:01:29]I thought they were focused on saving themselves.

[01:01:33]>> So you just [ __ ] your uncle like whatever. Like >> Well, they they would have died.

[01:01:39]>> He is old. [laughter] >> I don't know. It didn't bump for me for some reason. [gasps] I was like, they're not superheroes. I I I think they also didn't know where he was, right? Hadn't he like gone outside or I don't know. I couldn't remember.

[01:01:53]>> I think he went he went for his papers.

[01:01:55]He was insistent that his papers didn't get burned up, so he went for his papers. I didn't even think he can move around the house by himself. All of a sudden, he's running through the house for his papers. Like, >> that didn't make any sense either. So, >> was he I can't remember now. That part I don't really remember.

[01:02:10]>> I might be exaggerating with the running. But like I'm he had to go on his own, right? Cuz she didn't, >> right?

[01:02:16]>> Would she bring him to his room and then leave him there? Is the fire burning in the house? Like, well, maybe if she killed the rest of the family, right?

[01:02:23]Who knows?

[01:02:24]>> Yeah. At that point, I don't remember what happened exactly.

[01:02:26]>> They were in it together, Kristen. They They're both psychopaths, apparently.

[01:02:31]>> Well, if they're killing their family for a reason, are they psychopaths or just resourceful in a time when you couldn't get justice for what was >> probably likely sexual abuse?

[01:02:46]>> Oh, absolutely. But what's crazy is like if this book had come out now, we would have been guaranteed to have a prequel novel explaining all of that because they have to do all this.

[01:02:58]>> Hope that Shirley Jackson would would have not done that.

[01:03:02]>> Oh, I mean, she didn't. So, I'm I'm assuming she wouldn't have, but now everybody does it, so it probably would have happened. Unless there's an author that's, you know, it's like, "No, I'm good without the extra money and I'll Harper Lee it for the next 30 years or whatever it is." [laughter] >> But, okay. Anything else before we wrap this baby up?

[01:03:26]>> Those are all the questions. Um, >> yeah, I did have something quick, but that's an off camera thing. Um, >> but no, this was fun. I enjoyed this book. Great great choice and it >> I loved it.

[01:03:38]>> I I absolutely love how it's how these are all tying together whether you necessarily intend it to or not.

[01:03:45]>> I did so far. Uh the next one too, so hopefully it works out the way that I planned. I haven't read that one, so I don't know for sure.

[01:03:54]>> I'm sure it'll be fine. That author's weird though. Vegetarian was a weird book.

[01:03:59]>> Oh, the Han Kang book. We haven't got to that one yet, but we just if you haven't noticed. Well, I mean, right now the door. I'm talking about the door.

[01:04:08]>> Oh, the door. Yeah. Sorry. I can edit that, I think. [laughter] >> Yeah. I The door is very interesting and and people are loving it like they're they're posting just starting it and through the first chapter >> written. The translation is gorgeous. I don't know which languages people are reading it in, but the English translation is really beautiful. It seems like a lot of people are reading it not in English, >> right, >> from the posts I've been seeing, which is cool. And >> that is cool. Yeah, because it's translated into so many languages because it's such a popular author in Hungary. That's great.

[01:04:41]>> Yeah. And same with this one because it's been around so long. So, >> and it's classic.

[01:04:46]>> Absolutely. Let me see if I can stop this.

[01:04:49]>> Yeah. Penny.