The Dark Reality of Female Psychopaths | Dr. Fiona Girkin

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[00:00:00]Hello everybody. Today I'm joined by Dr. Fiona Gerkin. She's a leading researcher and a specialist in female psychopaths and how those traits manifest in women.

[00:00:09]She's also the host of a YouTube channel and a podcast. Fiona, it's really nice to be speaking with you. Thanks for joining me.

[00:00:16]>> Thanks for having me.

[00:00:18]>> Before we start, I'm just curious what's been your journey? What interested you in the the traits of female psychopaths?

[00:00:25]>> Yeah, it's been an interesting journey.

[00:00:27]I I worked in the community services sector for um over 20 years and during my time in that sector I'd met a number of women that were extremely toxic and I'd had some really bad experiences and I got to the point where I started to look into these behaviors a bit more. Um I was specifically listening to a an audio book from a gentleman by the name of Kevin Dartton um called the wisdom of psychopaths and it absolutely blew my mind because he started actually talking about the traits of the women I was working with. So in the community sector there's a lot of um what's called feminist services that are pretty much all women and I know in Australia most of the sectors dominated by 80% women.

[00:01:10]Um, and it was that really uh toxic kind of mean girl behavior that I was seeing.

[00:01:14]But what I was realizing was it was going beyond that. It was more than just mean girls. It was um relational aggression. It was gaslighting. It was taking people down and ruining their careers. So I started to look into it further and at the time I was doing a PhD on on public value in the community services sector which was really boring.

[00:01:33]Um so I kind of decided that I wanted to take a different path and that's when I started looking into um studying the the female psychopath in the workplace. Um yeah so I was it was it's been a an interesting time and I also discovered one of the leading researchers in the field um Dr. Clive body lived in Tasmania where I live. Um so I got to have him on my team as well as part of my my research. So, I was Yeah, it's at a It's been a Yeah, it's been a really interesting journey and um I've learned a hell of a lot.

[00:02:07]>> Yeah, there's a there's a there's an awful lot to uncover. Um for for people listening, what would the common characteristics of psychopathy be? And what would you recognize being the main differences in male and female presentation?

[00:02:20]>> Yeah, sure. So, some of the main things are a lack of empathy, um, a inability to self-reflect on their own behavior.

[00:02:27]It's always everybody else's fault. They might steal somebody else's work, um, and claim it as their own, but when something goes wrong, it's already always somebody else's fault. They're very charming and likable. So, initially, when you meet these people, they're people you actually want to be friends with. They're people you want to share your innermost secrets with, and they use that to their advantage. It's almost like they they're collecting data on you so they can use it against you later.

[00:02:51]They are people that um cheat and and commit fraud without caring. So in a workplace that might be as simple as taking $10 out of petty cash and not caring, using the work credit card to buy their lunch, um using the work car as their personal vehicle, those kind of things. Um they're people that are bullies. They're bullies in the workplace. Not all bullies are psychopaths, but all psychopaths are are definitely bullies. But they use a lot of in terms of women um I mean male and female psychopaths are much the same but the difference with women is they use things like relational aggression which is that um those social relationships.

[00:03:31]So they seem to manage to create a a posy of people around them that will both protect them and really like them.

[00:03:38]So when anyone complains people are like I don't know what you're talking about but also use that um as allies to stand up for them. And in terms of that relational aggression, they'll isolate people in the workplace that they're not able to they see through them and that they're not able to manipulate.

[00:03:57]And that's a a really common trait of the female psychopath. I think the other problem with the female psychopath is that we don't recognize women as bad. We immediately see men as bullies and as people that harm others, but we don't see women that way. And women are very good at using um covert aggression whereas men use more overt aggression.

[00:04:20]So it's it's so underhanded. So a man might directly um harm you himself whereas a woman would get someone else to do it for them. Um so they would wipe their hands of it basically. Um yeah. So that's they're the main differences and and in terms of the psychopath, but they do a they do a lot of damage um based on their behavior. But it is, yeah, the females are way more covert and that's why they're harder to to spot often.

[00:04:47]>> No, it's interesting you'd said about um surrounding themselves with people um very like what you would see with cult leaders and so on, that inner circle, >> and these are the people that generally carry and carry out the the work for them.

[00:05:00]>> Um >> you say about men being more aggressive, women being more covert. Uh, I know you just gave an example, but could you give a a couple of examples of what makes these people, if I put it to you this way, not all predators come with fangs and claws.

[00:05:21]What What makes these people such What makes these women such good predators that that people wouldn't immediately spot?

[00:05:29]>> It's because they're so likable. They're so nice. And when that doesn't work, they turn to victimhood. They turn to being the victim. And that's a really common thing. They'll turn to tears.

[00:05:39]They'll turn to, "But I've been bullied." Um, and it's something I see a lot in my work with the clients I work with, but I've seen it myself firsthand when in when I've um been in workplaces.

[00:05:49]Um, because nobody wants to yell at a victim. Nobody wants to discipline a victim.

[00:05:53]>> Nobody wants to hurt someone who's already hurt. Yeah.

[00:05:56]>> Yeah. And and the thing with with victimhood is if a man is starts crying and playing the victim, you would roll your eyes and go, "Oh, he's weak."

[00:06:04]whereas when a woman does it, people are there to comfort her. So, it's a it's a tactic that's way more effective in women than it is in men. Um, and it's one that they use quite freely. So, >> what would you say would be the primary motivations of these predatory types?

[00:06:20]And is it always about power? Is it always about control?

[00:06:25]>> Um, if you think so, sorry, go ahead.

[00:06:28]>> Yeah, it is always about power and control. Um that's the underlying motivation.

[00:06:34]>> Um >> because I was going to say that there is uh there's a sadistic element can be present as well when we look at things like the dark tetrat.

[00:06:42]>> And the thing with the the sadistic element is sometimes uh you you will have uh the dark personality types who they will they would use their cruelty more as a means to an end. It's gets them what they want. It gets them control. But there is that element where it's they just get a kick out of it.

[00:07:01]They love seeing people in misery and distress. So I'm just wondering can that be just one of the things that they just get a kick out of it.

[00:07:10]>> Yeah, definitely. And I I talk a lot about in my work a lot about the dark tech as well because >> psychopaths do are narcissistic, are machavelian and are are um sadistic.

[00:07:23]They they are they encompass all four of the main dark tetrad. Um I focus on psychopathy because it's the worst of the four. Um but they definitely are sadistic. They definitely do get a kick out of harming other people, pushing people out of organizations, um pushing people out of friendship groups, um destroying relationships because it's a it's an element of control and power. So they're getting their their kick out of of hurting someone else and having the power over them to do that um is something that they yeah get get quite a kick out of.

[00:07:56]So yes, there is an element of of sadism within the psychopath when it comes to choosing their victims, their prey, whatever it be. Would you see a difference in how men and women would choose it? I this is you can correct me on this. Okay, this is just how I would see it. I people are often asking things like why would they pick on someone like me or why do they choose people and and and so on.

[00:08:20]>> My belief, my understanding would be there can be the sadistic element. They they're getting a kick out of it. But it's usually if you have some kind of utility to them >> other than they're they're not really going to bother with you. Would that be a fair assessment or would there be a difference in how they how they choose their targets?

[00:08:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. And and I use the term resource. So if you've got a resource they want, um if you've got an office they want, if you've got a job they want, if you've got a partner they want, they'll target people that have something that they want or something they want to take away from somebody else. Um so they they do seek out people who have resources they're looking for.

[00:09:02]>> Um they also seek out opportunities to seek vengeance. So when someone doesn't behave the way they'd like them to or >> in um interjects in their in their trajectory, they will find a way to take them down because they want vengeance.

[00:09:24]Vengeance is a big trait that that I see in them. Um and it's something I've sort of included in my list of traits of the psychopath.

[00:09:32]Um the other >> Sorry, I was just going to say it's something I've talked about um quite a few times as well. I would I would refer to it as a very vindictive streak. It's a vindictive nature that would be there.

[00:09:44]And it's not even you have to do or say something against them. It's just that you won't comply. M so the good a good example is I've been doing some work around false allegations um by women towards men and there's studies that show that when a woman is romantically rejected by a man she's way more persistent in pursuing him than men are when they're rejected by women and you wouldn't expect that. That's a I found that quite shocking but also when I realized it that was quite believable.

[00:10:15]You know women um will do things like claim they've been um sexually assaulted. They'll claim they're pregnant. Um, they'll claim all these things because they know that they can hurt the man when they're rejected. And they can do that quite easily because we believe all women. That's that's what we do. So, yeah, it's um it's an interesting Yeah. They they don't they don't leave it when you reject them. They they'll hang around and they'll make sure that you suffer.

[00:10:45]>> And that's that sadistic element.

[00:10:47]>> It's uh reputation savvaging. Yes. Yeah.

[00:10:51]Yeah. Repusation, savagery. Um, the other thing they target is people who are empathetic, people who are very much like a bit of virtue signaling and are constantly wanting to help the wounded animal. Um, and they use that to their advantage. I mean, there's there's serial killers like I think I was talking to my husband the other day about Ted Bundy, how he used to pretend he had a broken arm or some kind of injury >> um to lure women. Um and it's and the females do much the same thing. Oh, I'm the victim. This happened to me or that happened to me. And so people sympathize with them. And when you're sympathizing with someone, you're not looking at the bad behavior. You're so focused on them.

[00:11:31]And then you start sharing with them about your experiences and you create a common understanding and common victimhood and then suddenly they turn on you. So it's a that's a really common tactic as well. They they look for people who are um are going to warm to them and who are going to want to help them in some way.

[00:11:53]>> That's really interesting. I'm not sure if you're familiar with her. I was talking to girl called uh Sarah Kryson from her channel Cluster B Milkshake and she was saying she actually um she she has a diagnosis of narcissistic personality, antisocial personality among other things and she would describe herself as a predator and she said that in in a workplace um if there was a guy that she would like and I thought this this was curious that there would be a guy that she was like and it's not that she particularly wants him but she would want to see how far he would go. The way I would phrase it is, would he be prepared to betray himself and she laid out pretty much what you've just described there. Um, she becomes very friendly. She becomes a little bit flirtatious. She uh starts to share little things about herself, about her life, about her own relationship.

[00:12:47]And she says as she's doing this, you know, he's thinking to himself, you know, oh, I'm going to be the white knight here. You're such a lovely person. and you don't deserve to be treated like that. And on and on it goes. He starts to talk about the things that are wrong in his relationship.

[00:13:02]>> Mhm.

[00:13:03]>> She said if she w if she was to go that far, she would be looking for what is missing in his relationship and that would be the thing that she would offer him.

[00:13:13]>> Yeah.

[00:13:13]>> And at that point, if he's prepared to betray himself, she knows right now I know you're a piece of crap. And then she just leaves it and off she goes. And so she describes the predatory behavior, but I think it's curious. She just gets to a point and it's no, you've just proved me right. You or crap and then just leave. And that's wow. It just blew me away to hear it firsthand from someone with the condition.

[00:13:37]>> And it is highly predatory. Um it's a game to them often. You know, it's a game. Um you know, there's always a means to an end, but quite often it's a game of the win at all cost game. and they'll do whatever it takes to win. Um they'll do whatever it takes to show their power and control over others. Um which is, you know, a bit bit scary really, you know, um when you're not someone that's willing to attack people in that way and to hurt people to that extent, but to do it and then walk away and not care. Um >> that's that's the the the the callous remorseless Yeah, >> I think that's what most people struggle with. People who've been on the wrong end of people like that. The fact that someone can act without conscience.

[00:14:29]>> And yet public publicly they can perform a conscience if you know what I mean.

[00:14:34]>> But no, that's >> Yeah. Um and they do they don't have a conscience at all. They they just that said though and I need to highlight this is that that psychopathic traits and even the dark tetra all these dark traits they are on a spectrum. So people can be lower level and be bullies and narcissists but not to the extreme where they do some of the the behaviors that are someone who might score 100 out of 100 on a on a psychopathic um checklist.

[00:15:02]So there is a continuum. So that's why some psychopaths are worse than others um simply because some of them score much higher and have a lot more of the traits um than others. I wonder as well would um how would you say things like their their level of impulse control come into that because you might have someone who are very very reactive >> and they act out in the moment but then you get the more machavelian type that can think long term.

[00:15:30]>> Yeah.

[00:15:31]>> Yeah. that. Yeah, that's that's really common. Um, so there's two types of psychopaths. There's primary and secondary. So the primary psychopath, excuse me. So the primary psychopath is the psychopath that you often um see in in the workplace. People that aren't behind bars, they're a lot more controlled and they're a lot more able to and I call them sleeper cells sometimes cuz they can be nice and get along in a workplace for years and then suddenly they turn. Um but the secondary psychopath are criminal psychopaths. So they often commit crimes but they have less control over their impulses. So they're bit more reactive than the um primary psychopath. Whereas a a primary psychopath I think can be a little bit more patient um and wait for their time.

[00:16:20]I think the the secondary psychopath are often a lot more reactive to what's happening >> given that just like with male psychopaths they can be charming. I I I like uh I can't remember who it was phrased this but uh they can be very good at becoming the very thing just like I mentioned that lady I mentioned um they can become the very thing you feel is missing in your life as you mentioned earlier a lot of data mining. I know this is not an easy question to answer because some people are generally maybe really nice by nature. Some people some might just have a bad day so it's not necessarily a reflection.

[00:17:01]What would you say would be the common signs that people would often overlook?

[00:17:07]>> Um I think it's the small stuff initially. So I think cuz cuz initially these people are very likable. When they start to behave badly, when they start making little comments and doing little things um being sarcastic or a little critical of you, people overlook that. They think, "Oh yeah, they're just having a bad day." Um so I think that's the hardest thing. It's not like it's not one thing that they do that you can go, "Okay, they're a psychopath." It's a combination of behavior that's witnessed over time.

[00:17:38]>> So this is the hard thing. It's not like you can interact with someone and go, "Oh my gosh, they're a psychopath."

[00:17:43]>> Um, you can. I mean, you can sometimes if they're high on the spectrum, you usually can. Um, but it's it's because they set themselves up to be the hero. They set themselves up to be likable um that it's really hard to identify the traits until it's too late.

[00:18:02]So, things to look for are their inability to self-reflect. Mhm.

[00:18:07]>> So if um something happens and they're blaming other people, okay, that's a that's a a massive problem. Um if they in relationships, how they talk about their previous partner, so if it's all her if it's all his fault, um if it's all her fault, those kind of things. Um that's something to look out for. If they move around a lot, have a lot of different jobs, and there's no real reason for that, or they make a lot of excuses about that, again, that's something that you need to be a little bit mindful of. Okay, something's going on there. Um, if they appear to bigote themselves, so I've done this and I've done that. Um, often they'll exaggerate their qualifications and experience.

[00:18:55]Um, >> grandiosity.

[00:18:57]>> Yep. the grandiosity element. So those kind of things are important to look out for.

[00:19:02]>> Um their willingness to commit small amounts of small fraud um but also lure other people into that behavior. So I'll give you an example. Um there was a case that I worked on where the female psychopath in the workplace and I did quite an extensive amount of work on this woman. So she was definitely was a psychopath. she would um buy lunch on the work credit card and whoever else was in the office, she would say to them, "Oh, but we're working during lunch. Let's let's all get lunch. Let's get pizza or something." Um so what she would do is she would include others in her fraudulent behavior.

[00:19:42]>> Um because then it meant that not only could they not say anything because they were complicit in what had happened, they were also would get themselves in trouble. So, she would make sure that other people were involved in her behavior as well, um, which was really key to her continuing to get away with things.

[00:20:00]>> That's a really good example. I I put it back to that. This is something I've been thinking about recently when I look at um behaviors and how how these things manifest. We're not going to say it at first. You're right. Because they are really nice. They've been doing a lot of data mining and they're doing a lot of mirroring and things like that.

[00:20:19]They're finding out >> if it's in a workplace for instance, they're finding out um you know is there any any disharmony anywhere you know something that they can become involved in and so on.

[00:20:34]>> But whether it's in a a workplace, whether it's in a little group, whether it's in a onetoone relationship, I think it starts very very subtly in in ways that are normal to all of us. And it might be something like just a little minor adjustment.

[00:20:53]>> Um, >> don't use this tone of voice or that kind of language around me, you know, cuz I'm sensitive or, you know, I'm deeply traumatized or whatever it happens to be.

[00:21:04]>> Um, you might even hear things like, you know, I'm I I I love to be I'm always on time. I like to be punctual, you know. So, you're going to hear things like that.

[00:21:15]But as things go on and you're doing these little minor adjustments, let's imagine you arrange to meet at say 7:00, but they arrive at maybe 5 or quarter past or something like that and it's kind of been implanted in you. You've already had this seed planted. They like to be punctual. So when they tell you, "Sorry, the traffic was later better or or whatever," you're accepting that as a normal reason because they told you the light to be punctual. And it is not unreasonable for the traffic to be bad.

[00:21:46]So we don't see these little boundaries, these little promises being broken, these little things. We we don't see that because they are often so small.

[00:21:55]It's almost like you couldn't measure them. And if you if you were to if you were to mention them to anybody, you look, I think there's something up here.

[00:22:02]You know, they'd think you were crazy.

[00:22:06]>> So these little things continually happen, but what you often find is they start to escalate. Would that be fair to say?

[00:22:16]>> Yes, that's correct.

[00:22:17]>> They continue to escalate to the point where um it's not just a minor accommodation.

[00:22:24]>> Sometimes it's like a whole lifestyle shift >> or whatever just just to accommodate them, but by then it's been normalized.

[00:22:32]>> The little things you had been doing might have been appreciated at first, but now they're just accepted as the this is the bare minimum. This is what you're supposed to do.

[00:22:42]>> Yeah. and any hesitation on your part after that any question it's it's seen it's almost like a personal attack >> and they've already got their little army around them as you say so it's not the one that you're facing it's it's all of their little minions too so you're feeling as if you're you're outnumbered there's a term that um I was talking to not sure if you're familiar with him guy uh Richard Granon I was talking to him recently And I was talking about these small little things along the way. While they're doing this, you're also getting little minor abandonments, little minor rejections along the way. So, you're kind of being conditioned to keep on trying to get the good stuff back.

[00:23:28]>> Yeah, I think so. I hadn't heard that before, to be honest. But that actually is a really good point because um yeah, because you've they've been kind to you before, so you're kind of expecting it from them. Um and I I do actually have an example of that. So um there was a case where um this psychopath and this was before she was identified as one was was very kind to a staff member. She had seen this woman as someone that she was close friends with and her her daughter had selfharmed and not the psychopath, the the friend. and she went to the psychopath to to try and look for sympathy and she just had this blank look on her face and said, "Well, what do you want me to do about it?" And she was really shocked and and and I said, >> I was actually shocked hearing it, but >> yeah, but she wasn't she wasn't shocked at all. She was like, "Well, what do you want me to do about it?" And because she was a senior manager, I think um the mother was hoping that she could, you know, she just wanted to talk to someone about it, but also maybe take some leave. And the psychopath's reaction really threw her, she said, because that was the first time she saw her lack of care and empathy. Um, and it really threw her big time. Um, but yeah, that's it's those little things and you think, "Oh, maybe she was just having a bad day or she was just uh maybe it was too much for her to hear that." So, you make excuses for them um because it's um you feel like maybe you've stepped over the line. So you you you take it personally rather than seeing them as being uncaring.

[00:25:05]>> Yeah. There's there's something there's there's something not quite right here.

[00:25:08]So it's either there's there's something uh that's up with them or it's something I've done badly. Something I've done wrong. I'm going to hazard a guess that interaction was in private. It was just the two of them.

[00:25:20]>> Yeah.

[00:25:21]>> Had there been an audience would have probably been a very different reaction.

[00:25:25]>> I think so. I suspect so.

[00:25:28]But I I I think these little things continue, those those little abandonments and and and rejections as much as the rewards and so on. You mentioned about using the credit card, taking other people out uh for their lunch and so on. In in little ways, these things escalate to they get to the point where they have someone the way I phrased it was this um they actually end up betraying themselves >> somehow. You know, they've compromised.

[00:25:58]so far that that they end up betraying themselves. When I was talking to um Richard Granny, the way he phrased it was I thought it was a really good term.

[00:26:06]Um what we're struggling with in the aftermath of that then is maybe like a self betrayal trauma. The betrayal trauma is bad enough, but maybe the the self betrayal.

[00:26:16]>> Yeah.

[00:26:17]>> I believe so I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Once somebody with those traits gets us to betray themselves, I think that's when maybe they have us or at least they have us.

[00:26:29]>> What would be?

[00:26:31]>> Yeah. And um and because you're someone that's not a psychopath, you start to feel quite violated because you're like, "Shit, now I can't do I can't do anything about this person because now they're holding something over me.

[00:26:43]They've gotten me to be part of their world and part of their problem." Um and yeah, they do have you. They and often it's hard to come back from that because especially in a workplace where you know you're trying to hold your position and role and and you've portrayed that by siding with a psychopath um who has now just turned on you and and I've worked on cases where the psychopath has been best friends with someone and then suddenly been their worst enemy. Um and in this this same case there was one of this woman's targets. She bullied her so badly she had to take extensive leave and when she came back they actually became buddy buddy and became really good friends and she actually joined in on bullying other staff. Um which I it was a really bizarre case um of going from being the victim to being the um part of the problem. Um but this is what they do. They convince people and they bring them along with them um and they make them part of the problem as well.

[00:27:48]I' I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[00:27:50]What do you think is that happens there when someone betrays themsself to that point where they actually become part of the problem?

[00:27:57]>> It's a spot to be.

[00:27:59]>> Sorry, I I I have my theory on it, but I'd be interested in hearing what you think.

[00:28:04]>> Um I think it's cuz it's a safer spot to be. Um it's a bit like the Yeah, the eye of the the eye of the tornado in that it's very calm. So, the closer you are to the psychopath, and there's studies been done on this, that is the safest spot to be. The trouble is, it's a bit like walking a tight rope in that as long as you remain friends with the psychopath, you're in a safe space and you probably get rewards from that. But, it's it's if that relationship changes, that's when things that's when you're way too close because they know way too much about you. So although initially it is a good spot to be um during that time they're learning a lot about you and if they turn on you they know way too much and they can take you down very easily.

[00:28:47]>> No I think the safest place to be that's that's pretty much what I was thinking and question that comes up in my channel quite a lot. People are talking about I don't like this term but it's the one that's used. People talk about you know the flying monkeys. I prefer to use enablers or agents you know but it's it's a colloquialism that's used.

[00:29:05]There are some people who are probably have the same kind of traits, maybe not to the same degree. So, they're just every bit as dark and they're getting the kick out of it. They love the chaos.

[00:29:16]>> Mhm.

[00:29:16]>> And they're they're enjoying seeing some per victim being being tormented.

[00:29:21]>> There are some who might be naive. They don't have all the information. They only have a certain version of stuff.

[00:29:28]But then there are those that as you mentioned I believe there are those who are terrified because they know what that person's capable of.

[00:29:37]>> Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And especially if they've seen it before, you know, people who have been around these behaviors before and have seen how they there's a real pattern that they go through. And I I talk about the six phases of the the female psychopath, which was something that identified through my research and work, and how there's this real pattern they go through. And it's the same every time.

[00:29:59]Um and how they start as um I call it the um the false narrative initially. So you know making sure that they create a narrative that's not correct but that big notes them in some way. And then there's that that performative stage, the debut performance where they perform in a way that is in line with their false narrative. So people really like them. They're really friends with them.

[00:30:24]Um, and then they start to change their behavior.

[00:30:28]So, they start to go through this what I call a Trojan horse phase where they seem like they're the gift and they're >> they're really in in they've been handed to um the organization or in a relationship and they're like >> it's like an infiltration.

[00:30:42]>> Yeah. And then as you know the the the story of the Trojan horse that the horse opens up and there's a big army in there and it's much the same as the psychopath is that they come in as this this gift um and this amazing person but but underneath they're just waiting to strike. Um I I then also talk about that jackal and hide phase where there's this real confusion stage um where hang on a minute but they're really nice but now they're not. And some people think they're still nice, some people don't.

[00:31:09]And there's this mass confusion around what they're actually really like because they do have two faces. They have the nasty and the nice.

[00:31:17]>> Um, and there's this real confusion.

[00:31:20]>> The last one is um the bad apple phase.

[00:31:22]So that's where they the workplace is just absolutely in disarray and there is absolutely nothing anybody can do because everyone's behaving badly. there's complaints, there's absenteeism, there's high turnover, and it's absolutely in disarray. Um, and that's the the real the time when things get quite hectic and organizations really do throw their hands in the air and say, "What are we going to do? What's what's the how do we fix this problem?"

[00:31:52]>> Um, and that's a a really really massive issue.

[00:31:57]No, that's that's that's really really well laid out. And and this is this is the thing. I've said this so many time so many times about uh narcissism, psychopathy, and things like that. By its by its very nature, it's destructive.

[00:32:12]>> It tends to destroy, it'll destroy everything that it touches. It destroys individuals. It destroys organizations.

[00:32:18]It destroys movements. It destroys little groups, >> even families and and so on. It and it tends to destroy from the inside.

[00:32:28]>> Yes. Yes, it does.

[00:32:29]>> If it can't or if it can no longer then it will try and destroy it from the outside.

[00:32:36]>> Yeah.

[00:32:36]>> Again, going back to that vindictive >> Yeah. So the the phase that I missed, I just realized I just looked it up. Um was the fight and flight stage. So that's where um it's part of that kind of chaos phase as well where people are um either staying and trying to complain or they're going and and um just running away and and just going no I can't do this anymore. So >> I wonder wonder you mentioned the jackal and hide aspect as well. So you don't know what version of them you're going to get on a given day.

[00:33:12]>> Yes. And and going back to the example of the mother who approached the staff member about her daughter, um that was a good example of the hang on a minute, this person's previously been really quite empathetic and it was just a completely different interaction for the mother. It was like Yeah. So I remember talking to her about it and she was really confused by it and walked away feeling, hang on a minute, what have I just witnessed? And that's what often happens. Yeah.

[00:33:39]>> Yeah. And that's what often happens. I wonder how much of that is is is conscious cuz give you I'll tell you what tell you what I think and let me know if I'm I'm on the right track here.

[00:33:51]Um sometimes that is there's no audience here so I don't have to perform and I don't have the energy for this. I can't be bothered.

[00:33:59]>> Mhm.

[00:34:00]>> And I really don't care. But then I wonder as well if you look at the sadistic element there's um the memory serves there are four different kinds of sadism there's spineless sadism tyrannical sadism there's enforcing sadism and there's explosive sadism >> and the explosive sadism I wonder is that what you're saying there cuz the thing about explosive sadism we think it's just someone flies off the handle very very quickly they just go into a rage But there's a more kind of manipulative structured um deliberate part of explosive sadism where you never know and a lot of the time it's deliberate. You could tell a joke and they're fine. They'll think it's funny. Half an hour later they turn on you and they start they they'll go through you like a great white tear strips off you.

[00:34:57]>> So it's ve it's very unpredictable.

[00:34:59]>> Yeah. So, I'm just wondering how how how much of that that jackal and hide might be uh might be a deliberate tactic which would suggest explosive sadism to me anyway.

[00:35:12]>> Yeah, definitely. I I wasn't aware of the the four phases of sadism to be honest, but that makes a lot of sense in that yes, I think it is that that unsettling and and it's a control thing.

[00:35:23]It's like having you on a string and pulling you in and throwing you out and um and and completely controlling you like puppeteering you in many ways. But yeah, I think it's definitely something that that makes sense in the context of the psychopath.

[00:35:38]>> I think it's uh I think it's very common in abusive relationships, the explosive side to the sadism.

[00:35:44]>> Um >> y relationships you would be maybe hooked on the good. You're trying to get the good so you're always trying to please. But where there is that that level of cruelty, >> I believe that it's not that you're trying to get the good, you're trying to avoid the bad >> and it just becomes a completely different dynamic. Now, in a workplace, I imagine that having a whole different level to it.

[00:36:06]>> Um, >> unless you get another job and you move away, but then you're you're dependent on a reference or something.

[00:36:14]>> Yeah. And that's the biggest problem I find a lot of my clients are going through. I know I've got a few at the moment in that similar situation where it's like I have to leave. I can't deal with this anymore, but who do I get as my reference? And most workplaces will say you we need your prior manager. We need your prior workplace. Um so trying to work through how to tackle that and and how to find someone else in the workplace that can be a reference because yeah, they they've got you over a barrel and especially somewhere like where I live in Tasmania and I don't have clients in Tasmania. I specifically don't. Um because it is such a small community, everybody knows everybody and it's a it's a problem because I know I have had when I was doing my research in Tasmania, um you know, the amount of people that said to me, I will never work in this sector again. I'm moving into state. I I can't work with these people anymore because everyone knew everyone and if you did try and leave, they would spread the psychopaths would spread information about you and nobody would employ you. Um, so it's a it's a massive problem and it is certainly a bigger problem where there's there's a small community or it's a small industry.

[00:37:23]>> Um, it's hard to get away from that >> and if they have something on you.

[00:37:28]>> Yeah.

[00:37:29]>> Yeah. If they've lured you into some of that bad behavior.

[00:37:33]>> Um, definitely. narcissistic psychopathic types. I I often believe they they will utilize, manipulate, and even weaponize things, leverage things that are very important to you.

[00:37:50]>> Oh, yes, definitely. Definitely.

[00:37:53]>> Because they couldn't threaten you with, I don't know, your lunch or something.

[00:37:57]They couldn't do that cuz, you know, you'll just go and get a sandwich somewhere else.

[00:38:01]>> It's things that are really important to you in the workplace. that's going to be your career in in a in relationships that's going to be your friends and family.

[00:38:10]>> Um it it could even be your property. It could be whatever it is they will utilize anything. And in a again in a workplace you're dependent on that reference >> and it's you know comply or you're of no value >> and they only need to threaten it. And it's that sometimes it's the idea of it they might do it that is enough to cause fear.

[00:38:33]um fear and concern. Definitely.

[00:38:35]>> Yeah. And even if it's outside of the workplace, it wouldn't be the first time I've heard, I'm sure you've heard things like this, too.

[00:38:42]>> Uh people have been threatened by things like, "I'm going to ring your work and tell them what you really like." And then you start panicking. And and what they're really saying is, "I'm going to ring your work and just tell them a lot of things I blame you for >> or I accuse you of." But even just the threat of that, the threat of your reputation being salaged >> and and certainly in relationships, we see that the threats of harming or damaging property, harming a pet that you love, those kind of things um are really common.

[00:39:10]>> Um especially when it comes to to loved pets um or or you know, if you leave, you can't take your dog with you. You you know, those kind of behaviors >> um that that just trap people. Um both in workplaces and in relationships.

[00:39:27]>> There are a lot of misconceptions around and I think it's maybe um some of the misconceptions we see around things like psychopathy I think largely come from like the movies we watch and so on. And the big the biggest example I could think of would be like the Hannibal Lecter character who starts out very well written but by the time you get to the fifth sequel he's more he's more like a super villain if if you know what I mean. Um, >> well, if you've watched the movies, you know what I'm talking about.

[00:39:54]>> Um, when it comes to the the the female predators, the female psychopaths, what would you what would you believe would be the biggest misconceptions about the the female psychopath?

[00:40:07]um that there's there's something else going on that it's um it's not their fault that you know their husband just left them or um you know she's just trying to break the glass ceiling. Um you know women have to fight harder because men have gotten everything. So I think that's sometimes a real misconception when it comes to women. I think we find it we always look for excuses when women behave badly but we don't do that for men. Um, and there's always an excuse.

[00:40:37]And you see that in domestic violence cases where women commit domestic violence. We're always looking for an excuse. We always have an excuse. And you only need to look at news headlines where a woman commits domestic violence or kills her partner. It always says um she had mental health issues or um she had a, you know, psychotic break. But when a man does it, he's an evil villain and there's no excuse whatsoever. So I think for women we make a lot of excuses and that's one of the biggest problems and that's how they continue with their behavior for so long because the excuses are there. Um there's no we don't hold women to account as much as we do men. So I think women use that and psychopaths use that to their advantage. Um and especially when it comes to false claims about men, there's that that believe all women narrative.

[00:41:24]And as a psychopath, you know, you'd be rubbing your hands together because that's the the biggest weapon you've got against men. Definitely.

[00:41:33]>> Get out of jail free card.

[00:41:34]>> It it is. And um and you'll automatically believed. And it's a shame because what happens is you have too many women lying about something happening to them, real victims start not being believed. So, they're actually doing a disservice to real victims, but not that they care about that. But, um, yeah, I mean, it's a it is it is a get get out of jail free card. It's the it's the perfect weapon against men. Um, and you see it way too often.

[00:42:06]>> I would I would put it to as well that maybe, you know, uh, different reasons why they target different people, uh, if they're of utility, if they're a threat or whatever. I think it would be fair to say that uh female psychopaths are every bit as capable of targeting female victims just like males can target male victims.

[00:42:25]>> In fact, females are more likely to target other women.

[00:42:28]>> Oh, >> okay. Tell me a bit more about that. I wasn't aware of that.

[00:42:33]>> Yeah. So, um women women target other women a lot more than they target men.

[00:42:39]uh unless it's in rel so relationships it's yes they target men but in the workplace um there's studies that go as high as 90% of women are being targeted by the women in the workplace um and that's why I found it really interesting when I did my study in a in a sector that was 80% women um women are just um can be quite feral um I I it's a terrible word to use I know but um you know you think about high school bitchiness and high school girls and how they they tear each other down and oh you're fat, you're ugly, boys don't like you, you know, all those kind of behaviors. That doesn't change when they leave school. That continues and that continues in the workplace. Women competing for resources, women wanting to drag other women down. Um that >> what would be the motivation behind that? Is it competition as you >> Yeah, it is competition, but I think we've also convinced women that they have to compete with other women to um succeed. Um, I think we've convinced women that for so long men have gotten everything. So now to be a woman who's succeeding, I've got to keep other women out of the way. And you'll see a lot of highlevel women in like CEO roles and that will often employ men around them rather than other women because they don't want the female competition. Um, and that's a really common tactic as well. But women are very competitive and that's that's how it comes into it is um, women fighting against women is a is a big problem. um certainly in the workplace as well. But yeah, it's a massive issue.

[00:44:10]>> Well, I' I've definitely learned something new this evening. That's for sure. I wasn't aware of that.

[00:44:16]>> Oh, I was just going to say that. Yeah, some of the most toxic workplaces are the feminist workplaces that are completely women. 100% women.

[00:44:22]>> Um they're some of the worst workplaces to be in. How would they in in those uh female dominated um workplaces and so on? How would they how would they see men?

[00:44:36]>> Um they're usually services that support women. So they're usually not very positive when it comes to uh to men. Um, >> and usually it's because they're dealing with a lot of female victims from male abuse and and and that's understandable, but >> they they are also quite nasty to each other. The other thing that I'll point out when we're talking about things like domestic violence, and I've done a bit of work in this area as well, is that when you're looking at violence between partners, the highest level of domestic violence is between two female partners.

[00:45:10]>> Oh. And the lowest level is two male partners. Um, so lesbians are the highest when it comes to domestic violence.

[00:45:19]>> Is there a reason for that?

[00:45:21]>> Well, because women are are volatile towards each other, >> the men would be lower.

[00:45:27]>> Yeah. Yeah. So So if men are the problem when it comes to domestic violence, why is it gay men that have the least amount of issues with domestic violence and that it's it's two women together that have the most? So yeah, >> definitely learning a lot tonight considered a lot of this, but >> what would you think that um organizations uh companies even courts and things?

[00:45:52]What sort of things do you think they need to be looking at to to take better account to to take into account uh things like female predatory behavior if it's not really being fully addressed? What sort of things do they need to be looking at? Look, they need to they need to better understand the impact of this behavior and they need to better understand identifying it. Um, you know, this is not and I I don't come from the point of a clinical diagnosis.

[00:46:19]My my role, what I see as my role is to look at what are the behaviors that are being witnessed and being displayed >> and the impact of those. So, I only work with victims and I work with victims and how they're being impacted. The reason I look at the psychopathic behavior is to understand how bad that impact's going to be or is. And I think courts need to understand that. I think workplaces need to understand that. You know, I was speaking to someone the other day that that had just put in a complaint about someone and they'd found out that there'd been a number of complaints about this person. No one had ever done anything cuz they didn't know what to do with them. Um, and I think these people often, these female psychopaths put such fear in managers that they're too afraid to act because they're the kind of people that will go for unfair dismissal or go for bullying will will suddenly go on workers comp when they know they're going to be disciplined so that they can then be the victim.

[00:47:14]>> I think it's understanding those tactics are really key. um being willing to go what are some of the key behaviors that have are happening and what are some of the key outcomes and joining the dots between the two in that okay this person is manipulating the system rather than just looking at things at face value what's happening underneath um and what's really going and we see a lot of that with things like parental alienation. There's a lot of moms that that alienate fathers from their children. Um, and they're not looking at some of those behaviors and some of those manipulative lying behaviors to to get what they want.

[00:47:50]But I think we've got a long way to go.

[00:47:52]Um, both in in things like family court, in relationships, but and in the workplace, organizations are often not willing to deal with these issues because they're so problematic. when it comes to the psychopath.

[00:48:06]I said a few years ago I was asked I can't even remember who it was asked me the question but um I was asked about the difference between men and women when it comes to abusive behavior and they were trying to make the point that most cases it's usually the men that are aggressive and so on and all I was trying to do was to make the point abusive people abuse people and if you're only going to focus if you're only going to focus on on one area of people that are being affected then you're you're ignoring the bigger Yeah, you only need to look at um the domestic violence um programs where men are accused of um being abusive. So, they go to these behavior change programs. Now, studies show that what happens is you send the man to the behavior change programs. He makes changes and realizes the error of his ways. He goes home and because it's not a one-sided situation, she baits him into committing violence again. and that really these programs should be for both parties, for for both both people in the relationship because it's how they deal with conflict. It's not one-sided. It's a two-sided problem and we're not dealing with it as two-sided problem. I know in Australia that's one of our big issues because um it's how people interact. But you're right, it's abusive people, abuse people. And you know, women use different tactics in a relationship. And you know, a woman would scream in in a man's face and say, "I slept with your best friend." And of course, he's going to react to that, isn't he? Um, so I think we need to look at the bigger picture when it comes to those kind of behaviors, and we don't.

[00:49:42]It's Yeah, relationships are two-sided.

[00:49:45]Um, I mean, there's rare cases where that's not the case, but I'd suspect that in most cases it's it's two-sided.

[00:49:52]>> Okay. Fiona, where can people find you?

[00:49:56]Um, so they can find me at um drfionagerkin.com.

[00:50:01]Um, I'm also on YouTube under dren um x and um Instagram as well. Um, my podcast is on YouTube but also on YouTube channels and it's called shenanigans.

[00:50:12]And on the podcast I talk about some leadership stuff, but I've done a couple of recent series. I did one about um dark beauty, so bad women who have behaved badly. And I'm currently just started a series called Bad Mama, all about moms who harm their children. So yeah, that's where you find me. I >> just going to say shenanigans. It's a very Irish word.

[00:50:36]>> Is it?

[00:50:36]>> I used to call it leadership shenanigans, but then I stopped doing leadership stuff and just focusing on women, so I've just changed the the lead title to shenanigans.

[00:50:46]>> I will put your contact details, your your channels and stuff. I will put them in the description of the video. I would encourage everybody watching or listening do check out Fiona's channel.

[00:50:57]There is some really good information. I I found you. I think it was about about 2 weeks ago. I think I've uh binged watched at least a dozen or so of your videos. There's a really amazing content out there. Uh you really know what you're talking about and it's it's it's really really uh I think it's important that people do uh learn learn the differences even just the subtle differences as well as recognizing the similarities. So, thanks Darren.

[00:51:22]>> I don't know about you, but this is something I might like to pick up and continue at some point.

[00:51:28]>> Yeah.

[00:51:29]>> Yep. Definitely.

[00:51:31]>> Sounds good. Until next time, everyone.

[00:51:34]Thanks for watching. Thanks for having