How to Be a Dissident

Added: 2026-04-30

[00:00:00]Hi, I'm Yakov Katz and welcome to another episode of the Jewish People's Podcast by JPI. In a world that often feels like it's tilting toward authoritarianism and where there's pressure to fall online, whether by a decree by some government or a digital algorithm that's always there on our phone or computer. What does it actually take for somebody to stand his or her ground? What does it look like to maintain an internal compass when the landscape around you is shifting? How does someone become a dissonant? How does someone find the courage to resist power? What happens to them? Where does this come from? And our guest today is someone who's qualified to explore those questions. G Beckerman is a staff writer for The Atlantic and also the former editor of its book section. He's also the author of the acclaimed book, The Quiet Before, and his previous book, When They Come for Us Will Be Gone, which looks at the movement to free Soviet jewelry, won the Sammy Roar Prize back in 2010. His latest work, How to Be a Dissident, arrives at a pivotal moment. We're currently watching the fallout of a political earthquake in Hungary where the government of Victor Orban has been hit with a stinging defeat. And at the same time, the whole world is watching and looking at Iran, waiting to see if the brave and courageous Iranian people, that spirit of resistance that they had back in January, will be found once again and they will rise up and overcome their fears to maybe take down the oppressive, violent regime. And for us here in Israel, as we think about elections that are coming later this year in the fall, these shifts that we're talking about, they're not just news. They're they're actually mirrors to some extent. Because as we navigate our own internal divisions and debates about the future of our country, of our democracy. We have to ask, and I ask Gal, what does or what can the opposition here in Israel learn from his book and from the stories of those resistors and those dissidents that he chronicles? What can they learn potentially in their attempt to change the government here in Israel? These are real questions that have real impact.

[00:02:09]And Gal's book, How to be a dissident, is an important read. You won't agree with everything. I can tell you that. I didn't. But you will come away smarter because at a time of great political unease and instability, it's a book that gets people thinking because it makes us think about our role. What can we do?

[00:02:27]What should we do with everything that's happening around us? Stay with me.

[00:02:33]Gal Beckerman, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me.

[00:02:37]>> It's a pleasure.

[00:02:38]>> So, we're talking on the occasion of the publication of your new book, How to Be a Dissonant, which I think comes at a obviously a very interesting time. Mhm.

[00:02:49]>> Um, definitely for myself and I guess a lot of people who live here in Israel and watching what's been happening obviously in in the ongoing current former I don't know how to look at this war. Is it ever ending? Right.

[00:03:03]>> But as we look obviously to Iran, it's something that to put into perspective started with a great protest back in January. And that's what kind of brought us to this point of this uh Israel US military offensive against the Iranian regime, which we'll have to wait to see kind of how that plays out. We'll get back to Iran because I kind of want to hear from you about how that that works and what we could potentially see. But but I do want to start just from the top and I want to ask two questions. Number one is why now do we need this book and why did you feel compelled to come out with this book? Now, >> um, is it the rise of authoritarianism?

[00:03:43]Is it what we're seeing just populist politicians around the world ripping societies apart?

[00:03:51]>> And if you could kind of explain to us because you open the book with a very vivid kind of experience of a dream that you had and and what would I do? You kind of positioned or you know what would I G Beckerman do if I was put into a place that I had to make a tough decision, >> right? So kind of if you could just lay lay out for us um what is what is this all about and and why now? Right. So well the dream is actually quite connected to to the moment that I sort of found myself in out of which this book emerged which is that you know in the first I'd say six months of Trump's second term uh there were just a number of moments where we were made aware of people who were uh sort of acquiescing to power uh people at very high levels you know uh very prestigious law firms academia Um and you know people high up in the federal government who just uh were told to do something that they maybe didn't agree with and just said let me keep my head down. Uh and whether or not you actually agree with the politics of you know the of of Trump there was something that felt sort of new and unprecedented certainly in my lifetime of seeing such a wide range of people just conforming in such a quick way. I mean, we had a moment I remember I'll never forget this in an interview with Lisa Marowski, Republican US senator who said, "I'm scared to speak out, you know, against the president," which was just a kind of a shocking thing to to hear. Um, so there so there was this sort of overwhelming sense that something was shifting. you know, people much more authoritative than me did begin to call this a kind of a light authoritarianism in the way that Trump was exercising executive power. Uh, I mean, I think that that is something a lot of people can can agree on that there was something new about his use of the levers that he had at his um at his control. Um, and the way that people were responding to it is not the kind of with the rugged individualism that I sort of always imagined Americans responding to being told what to do.

[00:06:04]There was a lot of bending the knee uh media executives. I mean, you know, I think we've all been inundated with these with these stories over the last year and a half. So, >> I mean, it was it was actually very interesting right at the at the inauguration in January, you saw all those top tech mogul showed up and just stood there.

[00:06:21]>> Exactly. Exactly. I mean, you know, Trump himself, you know, was sort of like almost taken aback at the degree of acquiescence, right? Um, and he he understood and I think it emboldened him, you know, that that power can certainly make people conform. Um, so this threw me into a weird loop, you know, where I was like, oh, you know, I've been thinking about dissident in much more extreme situations and environments for most of my, you know, writing career. Um, I wrote a book about Jews in the Soviet Union. My last book was about sort of how movements kind of incubate in small spaces, especially when they're being repressed in some way. So, um, I I kind of felt like it was a moment to draw on some of that, uh, history. Um, but also to look geographically outside the United States. Um, and not, you know, just to be clear, not because I think or I'm living in Stalinist Russia or, you know, Hitler's Germany or something, but because there is something about, uh, the human spirit in those situations. uh the way that it responds among dissident that I wanted to see if I could sort of try and capture um because you know to come back to the dream you know this fear about sort of or I don't know if it's a fear but kind of an anxiety about like what I would do faced with a choice uh began to sort of trickle even into my subconscious you know so the book starts with a dream where I'm being as actual dream I had where I was around this time you know uh where I was being kind of interrogated about something that I had done, you know, a protest I had been to or sort of a joke I had laughed at. I wasn't supposed to laugh at. I wasn't sure exactly what it was, but something politically um sort of that that got me in trouble. And I was be being given a choice. I could either um you know, confess, turn in my collaborators, whatever it was, or I was going to face real consequences to myself, to my family, to my life even um and the dream ends before I'm able to to give a response. So clearly this anxiety about you know how do we respond in these moments of political pressure where we're forced to do something that is against our our conscience uh troubled me and I wanted to sort of investigate this question. So you you suggest in the book that a dissident is not someone who's born being a dissident, but it's kind of thrown into it, right? It's a it's a matter of circumstances and then this it's this kind of personal sense of responsibility, right? Uh it's like you I think at some point you you um you argue that the resistance often comes from people who prioritize the question, can I live with myself, right, over Hannah Hannah Wrench is actually the one who who I sort of stole that from um because it's such a brilliant way of drilling down to something essential I think about you know that that I think a dissident sort of is asking themselves constantly and Arent was you know it's interesting because that question came out of her trying to understand the Germans who resisted the Nazis right um and so our you know our inclination would be to think like these are people who had like strict moral precepts that they were following maybe you know religious people or you know and she says no actually those people quickly shifted from one set of precepts or rules to live by to another set of rules to live by. You know they went from thou shalt not kill to thou shalt kill. You know as long as they were given a new framework for understanding what they were doing. The people who resisted were people who sort of met every circumstance that they were sort of found themselves in with that question.

[00:10:01]Can I live with myself? Um, and if the answer to that question is, I don't want to live with a murderer myself, you know, they didn't do the thing that they were asked to do. Now, this sounds very sort of simple. Um, and there is a I feel like there is actually a tension in my book between this idea that some people I think do have this kind of natural inclination to to resist to they they don't feel comfortable in big crowds. you know, they immediately, you know, when they're asked to do something, their first inclination is to think, well, why? Tell me why I should do it. And so, um, you know, maybe those people are sort of naturalb born dissident. And some of the examples in my book are certainly sort of extremes of this sort. Um, but >> I do wonder and I this is sort of why otherwise the book would have been pointless. You know, if there is something about recognizing sort of what makes those people tick that we can, you know, begin to emulate if not completely, then at least in part and at least for the purpose of if we find ourselves in a situation, um there's a kind of I feel like a a training a kind of way you can focus your mind so that you are attuned to a question like can I live with myself?

[00:11:18]So, I mean, that's kind of what I was getting at, like for the average person, >> Yeah.

[00:11:22]>> who kind of reads through the book and sees some of these stories of different dissident from the Soviet era and and and others, >> is it is it like what lessons are they supposed to take away, right? Like h what what because it's not it's not a manual, but it almost is kind of a manual, right? And you set up the chapters of, you know, uh what is it?

[00:11:45]be, you know, be be pessimistic or be funny or be that like all these different like kind of bees of of how someone should be >> if they want to be a diss dissident or someone who resists that power, >> right?

[00:11:59]>> I think at the most elemental level and I can speak for myself because this book is was a personal book in the sense that you know a lot of authors say like I wrote a book to answer a question for myself but I genuinely wrote this book to answer a question for myself. Um and at the end of it I didn't you know emerge with like you know these are the six steps that I'm going to take in my life you know to become more like a dissident. Um rather it was a confrontation with moral choice. Um I think that um what we don't often understand about ourselves about our lives what we often try to kind of look away from is the idea that we have moral agency. Um, and it's it's very hard for a number of reasons. One is that, you know, conformity, first of all, just kind of going along with everybody else is quite hardwired into the human being.

[00:12:52]Uh, for good reason. I mean, I think our species has survived as long as it has because we're social animals who want to sort of within our tribes get along and keep our heads down and not be the squeaky wheels. Um, so it's it's hard to embrace the idea that you actually have a lot of agency. agency that might turn you against the crowd, right? Um, but also because it's just it's hard. I mean, this is there's I talk about these >> It's obviously hard because like most people aren't don't do it, right? I mean, that's kind of like, >> right, most people don't most people don't do it, but they also don't and this is maybe getting more to answer your question. Most people don't understand it as a choice. And I guess, you know, not to be too pedantic about it, but that's really where it came down to is, you know, even the choice not to do something is a choice.

[00:13:39]>> It's a choice, >> right? And so I think that, you know, like most people, I open the newspaper every day and I see things that bother me. You know, I see a picture of a dead child that I feel somehow like implicated in, you know, um through my tax dollars or whatever it might be. Um and uh and I think most people just, you know, h that's terrible. they feel this sort of moral nausea that begins to climb up, you know, and they kind of push it away. They swallow it down. Um, I got to a place, I think, by the end of this book where I said, um, no, I I actually have a choice. Like, I can do something. I can choose not to do something also, but all of it is under the under the umbrella of a moral choice that I have as an individual. And that's a kind of power. Um, it's not only a kind of power, it's a kind of, you know, I I I borrow from Jean Paul Sartra here.

[00:14:29]He talks about moral choice being a creative act, you know, that we're making our lives. Um, and I realize this kind of gets to like an kind of the existential level of where this book lives, but but but that really I found compelling is that there is a burden and responsibility involved with these choices, but there is also a kind of a creative act. You're you're you're producing your own life. Um, and this this is true whether or not the things that you do, the stands you take, the moral choices that you choose to embrace actually have a real impact in the world, right? Um because that's and we can talk about that a little bit too because that's another thing I had to sort of like contend with, you know, it's it's we live in a moment where we're really primed to just like what are the metrics, you know, like like what are the what are the concrete effects that this is that what I'm doing has and the dissident acts not with that in mind but with a sense of I need to do this, you know, whether or not anybody else is going to um see or be impacted by what I do. So, I'm I'm I'm curious how you chose the central historical figures in the book. Um, some of them I didn't know, you know, and I'm not a historian, but I'm guessing some of them, you know, a lot of people might not know, right? Noni people know from headlines recently. I don't know that people would know Osip Mandel, right?

[00:15:46]The Soviet poet poet or the Kenyan uh environmental and political activist Mati, I'm not sure how you pronounce his name. Um, I mean, how what made you choose some of these characters? There's maybe, you know, 10 of them or so. Like what and and >> like how did you get to each to them?

[00:16:07]You don't have to go to each one, but kind of like what were you looking for?

[00:16:09]Because there's probably, you know, a lot that you could go through throughout history. And is there something that then you look at in the stories because you you know you you you you you give a very compelling depiction and description story of who these you know what they did and what was their moment and what was the >> what got them to to to come alive >> um and stand up and resist. So what is there something that then when you look back now at all of them >> that you see this is the takeaway?

[00:16:36]>> Um I mean I I I drew on them for different reasons, right? So, but they were each, you know, I and this is maybe more to the craft question of writing a book, but I didn't want it to be just like a series of profiles of dissident because that seemed less interesting to me. I wanted the the the people that I was looking at to be sort of to instrumentalize them, to use to if I could use that phrase, um to think about what actually uh makes them tick. Um and and then to sort of place them within these qualities, right? So the book, as you said, is written in as a series of 10 qualities. And so what was interesting to me about each of them in the particular chapters that I used them was how they manifested those qualities.

[00:17:21]Um and and uh and the and the range was also important, you know. Um it wasn't that I always like, oh, I want a book that touches on all kinds of different people in all kinds of different places.

[00:17:32]I mean, I I'm glad that that is sort of how it feels, but it was really about stress testing the universality of these choices, you know, of of these qualities, you know. So um so you know so for example uh you know I have a chapter called be watchful about a dissident's sort of need to witness right and how that can sort of make you a dissident you know and I have a I have you know a in that chapter is the is the ringloom uh circle in the wars ghetto who you know in the middle of the war you know in the middle of these horrible situations and increasingly horrible situations because they most of these people actually survived the initial um deportations to Trebinka and continued on through the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Um they decided to create an archive uh that captured everything that was happening to them in real time. Uh this was an act of witness and an act of resistance, you know, that they did secretly. Um it's it's an extraordinary story which I can talk about probably for an hour. But you know that same chapter has like them but also um a woman named Aha Ming who's a Chinese documentary filmmaker who went to this uh you know concentration camp essentially the mouse set up in the ' 50s in the Gobi Desert um that had been really forgotten about but that there was still there were bones scattered around because many many people had had died there in the ' 50s and and it had been sort of suppressed by the current communist government because they didn't, you know, they wanted to suppress anything bad about about Mao and that history. Uh, and she took her fil her camera and she began to film the stories of survivors and actually physically look through the in the ground, you know, for the for the bones.

[00:19:18]Uh, that chapter also has a, you know, Iranian filmmaker Jafar Panahi, uh, who was just nominated for an Oscar. um who uh you know who was who's making films about Iranian reality um and got really you know thrown into prison a few times by the Iranian regime. Anyways, just to give you a sense that you know what mattered to me was could I extract out of each of these stories these qualities that actually felt like they tracked over time and that that had a kind of universality to them.

[00:19:48]>> Yeah.

[00:19:49]>> Please. So, I want I want to ask you um I mean, you know, as you're talking, I'm kind of thinking and this this is controversial obviously in Israel, but I'll say it anyhow. Um >> there's a woman, Shikma Breastler. I don't know if that name means.

[00:20:01]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do know who she is.

[00:20:02]Yeah.

[00:20:03]>> And you know, Shikma was uh I think still is like a chemistry or physics professor over at the Whitesman Institute, you know, one of Israel's leading scientific uhmies in in Raovot and was kind of no just no one of political nature ambition at all. comes the judicial reform of 2023 and she takes the streets and becomes like the leader just walking with the flag and becomes this leader and today an icon and and and the target of so much on the right of the of the pro-judicial reform pro Netanyahu camp she's like the evil you know reincarnation of the devil to some extent of but it's it's like as you're talking I'm thinking you know it's just a random woman >> who's a scientist who you know >> a physicist or whatever has nothing to do with this Right.

[00:20:48]>> And and and something happens that that that she feels that urge to uh to change her life completely, right? And become now this uh this target for for so many, you know, I don't know if she knew that going into it, but it must have been in her mind. I mean, it's just it's an interesting cuz I think we've probably all been in these positions where we've had to think about, you know, do I you see a something an injustice, do you stand up or do you do you stay silent as you write often in the book? So, but but so I'm curious though, >> you know, if I let's move into politics just for a moment and Hungary, right?

[00:21:21]So, we just saw a dramatic election there and you you've been writing about this in your day job at the Atlantic.

[00:21:27]Um, Victor Orban is out and you know I do do you see what happened in in Hungary? Is that an act of of dissidence? Is that you know that political upheaval? I mean he has really been um something of an authoritarian uh leader has led the country for 16 years has really taken control of everything from the courts to the media to to just everything. I mean >> uh a very close friend to Netanyahu has to be said Donald Trump actively lobbyed in campaign form Sier D Vance right >> to Budapest to to to be at one of his last uh Orban's last rallies. How do you look at what's happened there and and is there a lesson there maybe for other countries that are going through similar uh I mean like Israel has an election we have a prime minister who's been around for also 16 17 years it's interesting to think about >> yeah no absolutely and I have been thinking about it a lot and um I do think there's a connection even a connection to wrestler too which is that you know and and I'll get to hungry in just a second because I I I really I've come to see it even in the last week or two I I I discovered something reporting that I feel like opened up a whole new understanding for me about what happened there and very much connects to my book.

[00:22:39]Um you know I think Vaklav Havl who I who I you know is a big touchstone in the book a Czech dissident playwright um >> he talks about you know a dissident being born out of uh something pre-political right um it is it is a response to an injustice that they're experiencing something that triggers um to use a a word that the kids love um that triggers their sense of of um of of of some some essential part of sort of human dignity being violated, right? Um I realize this sounds vague. Um but to me, I think if we drill down to what this means, it could be, you know, you're not allowed to being not allowed to say the things that you want to say, seeing your neighbor treated in a way that you think is wrong. Um, you know, for Vaklav Havl, you know, in in in in the Czech, you know, Czechoslovakia was the whole movement in the 70s was started because of a rock band called the Plastic People of the Universe who had been, you know, who sang about beer, you know, but they had been targeted by the regime because they were doing illegal concerts, right? So, so it could be a love of music or wearing your hair a certain way, you know? So these are all sort of pre-political uh you know concepts in the world that that I think somebody and I don't know what ultimately motivated Shikma Brler but I think for a lot of people who suddenly find themselves thrust into this role I think about the people in Minneapolis you know who were resisting heist you know I don't think that it comes from an ideological place um you know of course I'm not gonna you know pretend that they don't have feelings about say a Trump or or a BB but They they but I think it comes from something a lot more elemental. Um it comes from from a feeling of of something that is deeply part of what they consider the conditions of what they would probably call or Iranian dissident often spoke to me of a normal life, right? Um and when you see that being undermined and maybe a normal life means living in a democratic country, a country that has democratic institutions, right? So um I think that something in a dissident rises up and and and they and they want to defend that line. So to take it to to Hungary, something interesting that I discovered because I I had a question which was you know I think what happened there is something that I see happening here definitely in the United States which is people's political identity being pro- Orban or here being you know MAGA or I guess you could talk about it in in the Israeli context as well that political identity becomes so solidified >> um that it's hard for people even if they're dissatisfied >> to think of themselves as citizens who have a choice who can even think in terms of the pre-political, you know, what are the things that they would respond to that that whole part of their identity is sort of overridden by this tribal identity of being I am an Orbon person. I am a BB person. I'm a Trump person and therefore anything the other side says or anything that is critical is is is de facto wrong. Right? So how do you break out of that? How did Hungarians break out of that? Because the remarkable thing that happened in Hungary is for 15 years um you know the rural areas had been the strongholds of of the stronghold of Orban's support. Um and you know as long as he had that he was able to sort of ramp up uh you know get get the kind of majorities that he needed to to remain in power. And what I discovered talking to Hungarian political analysts was that this sort of quiet thing began happening two years ago um which is that in rural areas these small civic groups popped up. Um these are Orban supporters but maybe Orban supporters who were not you know they could see that the economy wasn't great. You know they they they didn't they were beginning to be dissatisfied with the direction of the country but they were not willing to go against Orban. Um but they also had seen a complete depletion of civil society over the last 15 years. You know actually ways to activate themselves as citizens and these little civic groups which were called islands um and were actually I should say they were supported by the opposition party who ended up winning.

[00:27:02]Um they weren't they weren't connected to them. They were independent but there was a there was some kind of lines of affiliation.

[00:27:09]>> Right. I mean he was in the Orban government at some point. Yeah, he he himself had left which is another interesting aspect to this because you see somebody who was also a true believer who then leaves it gives you kind of a role model. But I think much more significant were these little islands where people would and it and I I started asking you know what do people do in these islands and they would like organize trash pickup days or you know in their in their villages and towns they were you know or painting the you know bus benches or often they were like debate societies you know so there was like a um you know like a town like a factory near the town that was polluting and people would get together and talk about it or an issue at the school like their muscle their civic muscle began to be activated again. Um, and this took place over, you know, a year and a half, two years. As the election got closer, a lot of these groups went from being like trash pickup to registering people to vote. Um, or helping to pick candidates for this Tissa party, which is the party that that won. Um, and so the kind of the civic it seems almost >> Yeah. that there's just like I mean you're talking and I'm thinking Netanyahu I'm thinking Israel I'm thinking as you're speaking rur rural areas I'm saying to myself okay Kerachimona is a perfect you know example of just a neglected part of the country suffering from rockets suffering from neglect lost I mean 8,000 of its people >> from when they pre-occtober 7th and when they came back at the ceasefire they've gone from 24 to 16,000 >> um and or 18,000 sorry and now more people to leave and yet we have yet to see that shift in those in the periphery when we call I'm like thinking if if laid Bennett Eisen call you up and say hey you have an Israeli name you know you should come work for us >> I would I would I look I think actually you know I saw this you know we I think we all we all saw this sort of post October 7th in a big way I mean the immediate post October 7th which was a return to these pre-political feelings things, you know, because um I think what people people and and by when I say an example of pre-political and I'm just thinking out loud here is like we deserve to be safe as citizens like that is the contract that we make with our government that you know we give our we send our children into the army you know we pay our taxes we're loyal you know we're citizens of Israel like the at the very basic level we deserve to be safe right we deserve to have our country our government worry about our safety. Um and and I and I remember you know when all of the news came out about all the missed intelligence and you know the way that Hamas had been sort of pampered you know over time you know that all these things that people began to respond to at a sort of a deep and that's I think why there was so much solidarity in Israel right at a basic level. Um and then you know BB as most leaders of his sort are capable of doing they begin to polarize and they begin to strip people away from that common pre-political feeling and move them towards uh their political tribes and they say don't listen to that don't listen to that moral nausea don't listen to that gut instinct like listen to me because the other side they're going to you know they're going to kill you you know or worse you know so um I think if I was advising uh an opposition uh and I think about this in our context here too. Um in America that is it is finding a way to speak underneath politics. Um finding a way to speak to uh those basic human um desires, needs, expectations of what it means to live a normal human life. Um, and uh, that might not sound um, so groundbreaking, but you know, I think what happens in the spiral of our politics in America and Israel is that we we get so far removed from that that actually, you know, when we do have politicians who find a way to speak to those uh, to those sort of human interests, uh, it's the most refreshing thing in the world because we're so used to uh, this kind of back and forth forth of blaming and of and of just a purely sort of ideological uh layer of of discourse.

[00:31:40]So you end the book and it's kind of like uh it kind of goes back to almost the way you began which is you know what do I do right and and and one of those I if if I want to read just a short bit.

[00:31:56]>> Yeah. um where you talk about there was another crisis 2023 militants perpetrated a horrific massacre in Israel the country where my parents were born in Israel responded with appalling disproportion unrelenting gruesome war that took little little care for the lives of civilians leveled Gaza killed tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians 20,000 children I dreaded the daily scroll through the war crimes that tore me apart since Israel is a country whose people and future I care about but whose government is violating so many values that matter to me and How should I respond is what you ask. And then you mention >> how you have a young cousin who's a soldier. So, can you disavow family, but I have a young cousin who's a soldier?

[00:32:34]And do I join a protest even if it means standing next to someone who calls for Israel to end? And and and it seems like your debate, right, which I totally understand. And we're not going to get, you know, we're not going to prosecute now who's right or wrong here, Israel.

[00:32:50]It doesn't make a difference >> necessarily. But I just think to me it's like okay people have those debates but then they have to get into okay but the impact on my family and the and and I'm going to be seen next to this person you know like you saw in some of the protests in in Israel go back again to to what I know like you know even against the judicial reform protest back in 2023 suddenly Palestinian flag showed up.

[00:33:09]>> Yeah.

[00:33:10]>> So people like well that's not my issue.

[00:33:12]I don't want to be at that protest. I'm against the way judicial reform. Like these are real personal quandries that we have to deal you know dilemmas to deal with.

[00:33:22]>> Yeah. I mean the last suggestion that I have for myself that you didn't read but it's the last question is um should I move to Israel to be part of the solution you know if I see uh that that's the best way to sort of fulfill what I feel is this moral choice that I need to make right um I mean I have to say that as as somebody who you know has felt as you you know can tell from what you read deeply um conflicted and and pained over the last you know two years.

[00:33:53]Um, I have felt the best being in Israel with with with Israeli protesters because it's sort of I'm like, okay, everyone who's here is on the same page with me in terms of these questions that are being debated here, you know, horrifyingly about Israel's very existence. You know, I'm not that is not a open question for me. um you know but they are deeply conflicted and hurt about what you know whether it be the care or not care that was taken about getting the hostages back about the prosecution of the war about corruption about any number of things that that they want to have changed in their country. So, um I've always felt good there in that in that setting. Um where it becomes harder is is here uh in America. Um because you are and increasingly this is the case. And I think this is, you know, I really I really hope that, you know, more intelligent and far-sighted leaders than the ones that Israel has right now are thinking about these questions of what is going to happen to Israel when when they when it loses um America. Um polls show we're losing.

[00:35:04]>> Oh, I mean it's we're we're far along that way. And I can tell you as somebody who is standing at this crossroads, who's sort of like holding both sides apart, um, who's trying to hold on to this idea of, you know, there's a way to kind of contain these two thoughts in your mind at the same time, which is, you know, I believe in Jewish self-determination. I believe, you know, in the Zionist idea, but I'm not happy with what I see every day. And I feel like it is a violation. Um, and to me, it's not hard to hold those two things, you know, at the same time. But I don't see that happening around me at all. I see people thrust into one corner or another. Um, so I do think that that often puts me in a position as as as you you know as you read in those questions of saying what are the trade-offs like if I if I need to make a moral choice here because I could say as honestly I feel like I did at certain moments you know over the last two years of like you know I'm just going to I have to sit this out like I don't know how to engage here like you know if I say something critical about Israel I'm giving fodder to this people that I don't actually fundamentally agree with or think are acting in good faith. Um but if I say nothing then I am implicitly you know allowing something to happen that I feel is deeply morally wrong you know. So um so I I I have I I I think you know on the question of Israel with this book I've sort of found myself having to step off the sidelines. I mean I think that that is the big thing that I forced myself to do. um think about issues, politicians, causes within Israel like those, like that protest movement that I feel like I can support from a distance.

[00:36:48]Um ways that I can engage with people around me, uh who I feel like are saying things and acting in ways that are detrimental to a bigger idea that I feel like I I I I have about Israel and what it means. And so so I I you know I but you know it's it is it is where the rubber hits the road for me.

[00:37:09]>> No and it's it's also it's the complexity that I think you know which is raw in what you write.

[00:37:15]>> Yeah.

[00:37:15]>> And is is what we often miss in today's world. And you even write about this in the book G of how technology and you know social media and digital transformation all that just makes this all so much more difficult because >> the the influence and and and you know whether it's fake news but also people people lack that ability to hold both ends or try to keep them you know keep a have a leg in both or a foot in both places at the same time. And I think that's >> that's why, you know, I always say I we could disagree on an issue, you know, on any issue, but I I'd rather have somebody who's got skin in the game and cares about it and somebody who doesn't give a and and could couldn't care less, right?

[00:37:54]>> Couldn't agree more. And I think that that's often what this has descended into the discourse here around Israel is like a lot of people for whom the reality in Israel and the and among the Palestinians, you know, is isn't is an abstraction is a is a is a story that is being played out. Um and I I that's where I you know it makes me upset that you know I mean in some ways look it has always been that you know there's always been this dimension for we can you know for great you know grand historical reasons and religious reasons that what happens in that part of the world um is not just about what actually happens in that part of the world but there's an enormous amount of projection onto it um but but I and I and and my reaction is always to say, well, I I know the people like there are people there, you know, there and I know people on every side of the conflict, you know, like um and and to me that's what I need to keep my focus on. So I I I I want to let you go, but I got to ask you one question before um kind of what we opened with Iran because >> the way this whole war began was this idea at least here in Israel was also pushed by Trump in his initial statement on February 28th when the war broke out or the war was initiated that the Iranian people will have this moment a unique opportunity I don't remember the exact language historic moment for generations won't repeat itself Trump said to go out to Nano throughout the the the kinetic part of the war spoke spoke about how the mo he spoke to the Iranian people, your moment's coming. Be ready, right? You're going to have to take to the streets. And we've yet to see that. Uh it did start with these hundreds of thousands of people who took to the streets in January and how many exactly were killed. You know, >> anywhere from 7 to 30,000 depending on who's counting and whose number you believe, but a significant number.

[00:39:43]>> When you look at Iran, right, I is there I I mean, I hope they take to the streets. I think, you know, we would love to see the Iranian regime fall. I think everyone wants to see that happen, but I think it's also not it's a lot to ask of people. It's not a simple thing >> and it's generally not the way it happens that you know people there's bombs from another country against your country falling all over the place and you think you know now I'm going to take the opportunity to you know to take power. Um I think those they they would feel co-opted in some way. Um I mean now I'm just like speculating because I don't actually know but I do and but it is you know I I think that we have seen so much protest and resistance among the Iranian people you know over the last 15 20 years that um that it there is a great will and a desire and a capability to actually rise up um and and I and I feel that when I talk to Iranian people too. um when I talk to Iranian people in exile and I've talked to Iranians in Iran. Uh but I think that it it is it is a fraught moment for them when when bombs are falling on their country and it's like there's another natural human instinct which is to sort of circle the wagon, you know, and um and so so I think I think it's >> easier said than done basically.

[00:41:08]>> Yeah, it's easier said than done. I mean I hope like you do that that they will um because I do think you know unlike a lot of other you know like say Iraq you know when when the Iraq war happened and um that was just there was no indication whatsoever that there were Iraqi people who were you know looking for that kind of change uh you know we we sort of people a lot of people imagine that they did because they were living under also equally authoritarian circumstances but in Iran there's an abundant amount of evidence um you know people often and talk about this kind of 70% number of people who would you know embrace the fall of the Islamic regime. Um so I I don't know but I I do feel like there are so many brave dissidents in that you know so many you know who who come out of that out of that population. Um, and there's a lot of there's a lot of pride um in and a and a and an attunement to these some of these things we've been talking about to human dignity and what it means to live. I mean, just the women the women who throw off their hijabs, you know, um it is it is to me always been like an incredible symbol of you know what it actually means to be a true dissident.

[00:42:26]>> Wow. Um, Gal Beckererman uh the staff writer at the Atlantic, formerly editor of their book section and author of the newly published really great read uh how to be a dissident. Um really recommend everybody read this book because even if you're not a dissident and you're you're not going to it can it it just gives you insight into into what what h how these movements happen and where these people where these really these heroes come from. So thank you so much for joining me. Really appreciate it. Yeah, I really I really enjoyed the conversation.

[00:43:00]Thanks for joining me on today's episode. As always, you can find us where podcasts can be found on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and the website of The Times of Israel. We'll be back next week with another episode of the Jewish People's Podcast. In the meantime, share widely with your friends. Give us a fivestar ranking. Send it out to your family and we look forward to hearing from you soon. And always feel free to reach out [email protected].

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