Cliffe Knechtle Will be Studied FOR CENTURIES After This Moment🤯

Ajouté : 2026-05-27

[00:00:00]I grew up in a Christian household, but I was always an atheist. Uh then I became agnostic. Uh and I've always struggled with believing in God. Um but I I I just struggle with Christianity.

[00:00:08]And so I My question is why why Christianity and maybe why not some other Abrahamic religion?

[00:00:14]Reject Christianity. Christianity has been used to justify the Crusades, the Inquisition, Salem witch trials.

[00:00:20]Christianity is a uh rather hypocritical religion often. So, don't believe in Christianity. Jesus Christ is totally different.

[00:00:29]The reason that you should believe in Jesus Christ is he taught the highest ethical standard possible. Robert Coles, professor emeritus at from Harvard University, said, "All the writings on ethics over the past 2,000 years are simply footnotes to the Sermon on the Mount."

[00:00:43]Whoever put that Sermon on the Mount together, Matthew 5, 6, and 7, was an ethical genius.

[00:00:50]Second point, not only did Jesus teach ethical genius brilliance, but he lived up to it.

[00:00:58]His lifestyle was impeccable. I have tried to live like Jesus. I have miserably failed. I am a dirty, rotten sinner.

[00:01:08]Christ didn't.

[00:01:10]I put my faith in Christ not because he was racist and condoned slavery.

[00:01:16]I put my faith in Christ because he taught this incredibly high ethical standard and then lived up to it.

[00:01:22]Thirdly, I believe in Jesus because as he's bleeding and dying on a cross, he prays, "Father, forgive these people who nail me to the cross."

[00:01:30]That demands respect.

[00:01:33]When Barbie and Marie Fischer looked into the hand face of Mr. Roberts in that Amish schoolhouse in 2006 in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, and when Marie and Barbie Fischer said, "Shoot us and let the little girls go."

[00:01:53]They were communicating a biblical worldview of loving others and putting their interest before my own.

[00:02:01]And when Charles Roberts is just about to kill all the girls in that little one room schoolhouse, he looks at Barbie and Marie Fischer and he says, "I want what you've got."

[00:02:13]And then he blew them all away.

[00:02:16]The Amish in the way they forgive were incredible.

[00:02:20]And when you see that kind of reality, you begin to realize, "Whoa, this flows right from what Jesus taught. It flows right from an understanding that that the heart of the universe is not a cold, empty hollowness. At the heart of the universe is a god who loves you and who wants to forgive you and who wants to draw you to himself."

[00:02:40]And then the fourth reason you believe in Jesus is because 3 days after he died, he physically, bodily rose from the dead and over a period of 40 days, he appeared to over 500 people who saw him risen from the dead. I have to believe in Jesus cuz when I look at all the religions, all the philosophies of life, there is not one that comes close to Christ in terms of credibility, in terms of trustworthiness. I'm an agnostic and there's many reasons that I don't believe in God and religion and one of those is metaphysical. So, to set basis, what do you think is the relationship between objective morality and God? I am convinced that if there is no God, morality is totally relative.

[00:03:22]What does that mean?

[00:03:25]Obviously, you have to have a mind in order to be able to distinguish between good and evil, justice and injustice. If there's no mind, this wall has no ability to distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong.

[00:03:38]So, if there is no mind prior to the human mind, then obviously, it's the human mind that defines right and wrong.

[00:03:45]I've got my definitions of that. The hedonist has his or her definitions of that.

[00:03:50]Stalin has his definitions. Hitler his definitions.

[00:03:54]It's all relative. Nobody's right in any absolute objective sense. Everybody's equally true.

[00:04:01]See, Kai, if there is no God, what is is.

[00:04:06]It's not good, it's not evil.

[00:04:07]It's not right, it's not wrong. Those are totally subjective categories. If there is no God, what is is.

[00:04:16]So, maybe you get upset about Hamas, Israel, Hezbollah, Ukraine, Russia bombing each other.

[00:04:25]Chill out, Kai.

[00:04:26]If there is no God, what is is.

[00:04:30]And yet, Kai, notice that all of my atheist friends could not live that out.

[00:04:34]All of my agnostic friends could not live that out.

[00:04:37]Because we have consciences that convict us that certain things are right and other things are wrong.

[00:04:43]See, Kai, if I believe something and I can't live it out, if I believe something and my experience contradicts what I believe, then I better go back and examine what I believe.

[00:04:54]God sets objective objective morals like justice, forgiveness. Yes, those are values that flow from the character of God. Remember, God's eternal, no beginning, no end. And so, throughout eternity, the qualities of his character define what is right, what is wrong.

[00:05:16]Complete hypothetical, if God's nature and objective morality that projected from God was to say that murder was good, would you then believe that murder is therefore good? I would argue that picture is totally out of touch with reality.

[00:05:30]Because God's character is good, murder is never right, but killing could possibly be right.

[00:05:37]If you and I walk into a situation where little children are being slaughtered, and if you and I use physical force to end the murderer's life, I would argue that is not murder on our part, that is killing motivated by a drive to protect the innocent from being slaughtered.

[00:05:54]God is just defining whatever he is as good.

[00:05:58]So, then if there was theoretically murder and that was characterized by God being good, then that would also be good because God's character is fundamentally good. So, then would murder be good?

[00:06:12]You know something, Kai? There are possibly invisible silent monkeys dancing through the air of this room right now.

[00:06:20]I can't live as if that's seriously a possibility because the overwhelming evidence is there are not invisible silent monkeys dancing through the air of this very nice room.

[00:06:32]Sure, we could say, "What if God was racist?" Would that make racism good?

[00:06:37]The fact is God is anti-racism and Jesus Christ revealed that very clearly.

[00:06:42]And when I observe my atheist lifestyle, the majority of my atheist friends are anti-racism.

[00:06:49]But when you when it comes to answering the question, "Why is racism wrong?" my atheist friends are up a creek without a paddle cuz there is no basis for racism being wrong. Because if a human being is simply an accidental collection of atoms, then who are you or who am I to place this intrinsic value on a hunk of primordial slime evolved to a higher order.

[00:07:12]So, I have to live in the practical world.

[00:07:15]And my practical world does not allow me to believe, based on evidence, that there are invisible monkeys dancing through the air in this room right now.

[00:07:22]Although it is possible.

[00:07:24]And I'm well aware of the fact that I might be a bad dream you're having.

[00:07:27]That's a possibility.

[00:07:28]But I appreciate the way you don't live as if I am a bad dream. Instead, you respond thoughtfully to me. All right.

[00:07:35]Thank you. Human beings inherently are limited. Their actions are limited.

[00:07:41]And because of this, I fundamentally disagree with the fact that somebody can deserve eternal damnation.

[00:07:49]I get like I get the definition of hell being they chose not to be with God. And I and so then they're in hell and I agree with this, but I don't think this I don't think it's fair that they're stuck with that decision for eternity. I don't think there's anything that bad somebody can do that for eternity they deserve to stay in hell.

[00:08:11]So how can God be fair?

[00:08:13]Give me a better option.

[00:08:15]What would you like to see happen? Maybe like they can do their time and then have have some kind of other way to like get back to have another to have some other chance. Why do you believe in reincarnation? What's the evidence that reincarnation is true? Well, that's not necessarily like part of the fact like I feel like there's there could be other like systems. I just don't agree with like somebody being in hell forever.

[00:08:38]Like why can't they serve their time in hell? Like there's still an afterlife in that hell. Like can they not serve that time, realize their mistake and then be judged again? And then like if the whole point of punishment is to better somebody, to help them realize what they did was wrong and then to better them.

[00:08:53]Like that's how we like, you know, that's how we would I guess punish people in today's today's society. We don't We punish them, they serve their time and then eventually they they get better and that's the whole point of punishment in my in my view, to help people get better so that they can be good.

[00:09:12]So why why can't somebody who served their time in hell then be rehabilitated and then go back to heaven?

[00:09:20]I know obviously I'm going to try and press you.

[00:09:22]All right, and don't worry I'll get around to answering your question.

[00:09:25]What's the evidence that your option to the judgment of God which is reincarnation, that's the option you've chosen.

[00:09:34]Why do you believe that? What's the evidence that reincarnation is true?

[00:09:39]I'm I'm not entirely sure of the evidence. I Like you said earlier, there's a truth and we have rational minds in order to try to understand that truth, but if something seems irrational to me, I would I would believe that the real truth of God would be rational. And then and according to like if if I were to take God and his system of you're either going to go to hell or heaven as the truth, I don't think that makes sense. That's that's my evidence that I would say like it doesn't make it doesn't logically make sense to me. I don't think that's fair. What is illogical about an eternal judgment?

[00:10:14]I think like I said, somebody can't I don't think there's anything somebody can do that is so bad that forever they're going to be punished. If God is truly an all all fair God, there's nothing that somebody can do in a finite life with finite scope of their actions that should necess- necessitate them to be punished for eternity.

[00:10:34]But your whole argument with me is based on I can't believe that, which is not rational.

[00:10:39]And yet you're believing in something called reincarnation that you cannot give me any rational basis is true.

[00:10:46]That's a problem.

[00:10:47]If if you're going to be consistent and depend on reason.

[00:10:52]There is absolutely nothing irrational for a creator God to say, I'm giving you a gift of life.

[00:11:00]And if you choose to live your gift of life separate from me, I respect your dignity. I respect your free will. I respect that you have chosen to live your life separate from me, which means you don't want to spend eternity together with me.

[00:11:17]And that's one of C.S. Lewis's points in his book The Great Divorce. A people A people group get on a bus and go to heaven from hell.

[00:11:26]They get out of the bus in heaven. They walk around and they don't want to stay cuz it's eternity in the presence of God.

[00:11:33]I resent God. I don't want to live together with God. I proved it by how I live my life.

[00:11:37]And they go straight back to hell.

[00:11:39]And Lewis's point is, hell is God's ultimate compliment in respecting your free will. And if you don't want to live together with God, he's not going to force you into his presence against your will. And you'll spend eternity separate from him.

[00:11:56]If somebody were to truly understand God, I don't see how anybody could reject him because God by definition should be perfect, should give pure happiness to every single anybody who truly witnesses him. So then why would they ever reject him? If they if they I would That doesn't make sense to me either. But once again, I think that the answer of Jesus is very rational and very understandable, which is I want to do what I want to do. I want to do what I want to do. And I don't want you, and I don't want God, and I don't want the government telling me how to live my life. I want to do what I want to do.

[00:12:40]In other words, I think I know the theme song of hell.

[00:12:43]I did it my way.

[00:12:46]And God says that will be hell. You will do it your way for eternity. That's your decision.

[00:12:52]And that's very attractive in many ways.

[00:12:55]And I've proven the attractiveness of it by rebelling against God and living according to the philosophy of life that says, I want to do it my way. Period.

[00:13:06]End of story. Bug off. Stay away.

[00:13:09]Why can't they choose afterwards my old perception of God was false and I actually do want to be with him? I understand you don't like it. You've made that very clear.

[00:13:20]God says that life is the time that you and I have to determine where we want to spend eternity, either together with God or separate from him.

[00:13:28]It's not irrational. It's not unreasonable.

[00:13:31]You don't like it, I understand that.

[00:13:33]Many people don't like it.

[00:13:36]I don't like the law of gravity when I trip over a stair.

[00:13:40]The law of gravity sucks me to the ground and I hurt myself.

[00:13:43]But I'm sorry, I better grow up and learn that the law of gravity is real and I better pick up my feet and not stumble down the stairs.

[00:13:52]So, Jesus in the Bible insists God is just, he's loving, he proved that by sending his son Christ to bleed and die on a cross, which means the way to afterlife is not through working off your bad karma.

[00:14:06]It means heaven is a gift that God gives you by his grace when you trust in his son Jesus Christ. So, that's the big difference between reincarnation and eternal life in heaven. Reincarnation, you work off your bad karma through a cycle of rebirth, reincarnation, and eventually you obtain nirvana.

[00:14:25]Jesus says no, you can never work your way to heaven because God is holy and you're a sinful human being.

[00:14:32]But God loves you and offers you the gift of forgiveness and eternal life when you put your faith and trust in him. So, it's either works, work off your karma, you can do it, or grace.

[00:14:44]It's a free gift that God gives us because he loves us. Then, when you receive that grace, your heart changes and you begin to live a new life, a new life under the leadership, the commands of Christ, of God. The laws are like the laws, right? Like you can like them, we can dis- we can agree with them or not agree with them, sorry. We can dislike them, but they're still there, right?

[00:15:08]But if some I don't think there's again, I don't think there's anybody who if they knew the real truth would ever not choose God. If I think that might I can I don't know if I can say that with certainty, but I feel like I could like if anybody knew the real truth of God and they knew that God for sure is literally happiness, they would never not choose to be with him. Okay.

[00:15:33]And I think that you have a very naive view of human beings.

[00:15:36]I know of human beings who know very well what's wrong and they still do it.

[00:15:41]Well, they do it because their wrongdoings still bring them some type of happiness. Whatever misconstrued wrong way that might be. Somebody Somebody who's crazy might find happiness in killing somebody. But at the end of the day, we're still after that happiness. So, if God is pure like like just like a pure happiness factor, then nobody would never not choose him.

[00:16:00]Okay, good. So, I agree with you. People who commit suicide do so cuz they think they're going to be happier dead than alive.

[00:16:08]So, I agree with you.

[00:16:09]A big motive in our lives is happiness.

[00:16:12]So, now the question is am I smart enough, good enough to be able to define what will bring me real happiness? Or is God all-knowing and all-loving, therefore I should trust him to lead me into real joy?

[00:16:27]That is a fundamental question. You've got to answer it.

[00:16:31]And what is human arrogance? I am the center of the universe.

[00:16:35]What is human arrogance? I'm all-knowing.

[00:16:38]What is human arrogance?

[00:16:40]God is inferior, Cliff is superior.

[00:16:43]I want what I want.

[00:16:46]And humility is God, you are the center, you're the creator, and I want to do it your way. Stuart, what do you think?

[00:16:53]I just think the caste system is something that has really hurt your case.

[00:17:02]Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:17:05]Has really hurt the case of of Hinduism.

[00:17:07]I I went with some Hindu friends once to a Hindu temple and everything about what was going on in the Hindu temple was to celebrate the New Year that was coming. And for 24 hours straight, they had to bang a tambourine in the exact same way. If anybody missed a single note as they were rotating through banging this tambourine, they would have >> [music] >> bad luck for the whole year.

[00:17:27]Okay, that's focusing on ritual.

[00:17:31]That's focusing on religiosity. That's focusing on you have to get everything right in order to move on to the next phase, in order to reincarnate, [music] in order to work out karma. Okay, the Christian faith is the exact opposite of that. It's we can't ultimately fulfill what we really want to fulfill. In most cases, to be a good husband, to be a good wife, to be a good parent, big one in our society, to make X amount of dollars, but especially to be a good person, we'll never be able to get there.

[00:18:05]And so I don't believe the answer is somehow, oh, you got to work this off and you'll never ultimately be able to work it off unless you're a really, really good person.

[00:18:15]But then you have this caste system issue. We went to tea afterwards, me and a couple of women, and we sat down for tea.

[00:18:21]And we're drinking tea and that's when I brought up the caste system. I said, "Are you guys all in the same caste system?" And they started giggling awkwardly. And I thought, "Oh, man, I'm a maybe I've stirred the pot here a little bit."

[00:18:32]And sure enough, one of the ladies turns to me and says, "No, she's in a higher caste system than I am.

[00:18:38]But we look at each other the same."

[00:18:40]They sort of imply.

[00:18:42]But the awkwardness right there, and I know a lot of Hindus say, "No, we've done away with the caste system." Well, that's not fully true for one, but then two, oh, it's that sting is still there.

[00:18:51]I think the fundamental difference, one of the fundamental differences between Hinduism and Christianity is grace cuz we're never going to be able to be perfect.

[00:18:59]And the second one is all are created in God's image. So it doesn't matter how you were born, what family you were born into, everyone has equal value and dignity, no matter what. And that, my friend, is tremendously crucial right now over in certain Scandinavian countries where certain reports are coming out saying, "Hey, guess what? We've done away with Down syndrome."

[00:19:23]Finally, Down syndrome kids, we can eradicate them completely. How awesome is that?

[00:19:29]And you think, "Wow, okay, so there's some type of medical way of of healing Down syndrome?" No, no, no. We're going to kill them all.

[00:19:35]We're going to abort those babies.

[00:19:38]Hey, well, that's dignity, value, making subjective value judgments on somebody's life.

[00:19:45]And what changed the entire known world not too long ago, according to Luke Free, prolific athe- agnostic author who's who's written many New York Times best sellers, I think a Pulitzer Prize winner as well, he said, as an agnostic, it was what God said through Jesus Christ that everyone has equal dignity, no matter what. That changed the whole known world at the time. Cuz never before then did anybody ever look at people of other faiths or other civilizations or their own, if you had a girl instead of a boy, for example, you'd leave that girl on a trash heap.

[00:20:23]That all shifted and changed when Jesus Christ came. So, my boyfriend and I are both Christians and he's [music] about to graduate and commission into the Air Force as a pilot. Uh specifically, he wants to be a fighter pilot, which is a combat role.

[00:20:37]And I saw that you previously answered a question about the general morality of the military before and you referenced Luke or Luke 3:14 where soldiers asked John the Baptist, "And what should we do?" And then John the Baptist replied, [music] "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely. Be content with your pay."

[00:20:57]Uh which shows that God does not outright rebuke military service. Uh and then you go on to say that wars fought over preventing the slaughtering of innocent people or otherwise protecting lives, are morally just, um but ones fought over money are not. And I think most of us in this room would agree with that sentiment, regardless of our religious beliefs.

[00:21:17]Um but the issue is though that soldiers have to commit a certain time period of service without knowing in advance what they will have to do.

[00:21:26]And oftentimes they aren't told the purpose of the mission or given a real understanding of what they have to do due to security reasons.

[00:21:34]Uh and we can't sit here and pretend that the United States government serves and honors God always.

[00:21:40]>> [music] >> And these soldiers commit 10, 20, 30 years of their lives to just blindly obeying their higher-ups. And disobeying, especially in the time of war when this really matters, um means going AWOL and facing severe legal consequences such as up to life in prison.

[00:21:57]And then my question is, after all of that, how do we ensure that he, or soldiers in general, follow the commandments and will of God first above that of the government?

[00:22:08]Whenever we get this question, it does always feel like it's not a complete answer because you're right, with the gas pump, am I am I fighting just to keep gas prices down, or is this for real good reason? Well, unfortunately, yeah, if you go AWOL, you you don't really know at the end of the day which one you're going to be fighting for at times. It gets a little ambiguous, even if you do.

[00:22:35]Exactly. You you have you have to serve a certain amount of time.

[00:22:38]So, in that ambiguity, I I think you want to look at the timing of when you are registering.

[00:22:48]I Secondly, I would think under which administration, along with that timing.

[00:22:53]Thirdly, you have to go in prayerfully saying, "God, I could be directed in a way that's not exactly godly, but I'm going to be stuck in that situation. And then you have to start asking the really tough questions.

[00:23:06]Can I get out of this? Must I get out of this?

[00:23:09]>> [music] >> And it's like someone who's willing to die for the gospel at that point in many ways.

[00:23:15]Next would be what are what are the legalities look like? But then lastly, it would be >> [music] >> know that Paul is making these commands in Romans 13 under Nero. I mean, that's a pretty that's a pretty tough government right there.

[00:23:30]And yet he's saying to submit.

[00:23:33]All right. Well, what does that look like? I think scripture is silent on what does it look like to submit to Nero. So, the submission piece is obviously he's not saying go out and kill fellow believers and put them light their gardens that we get to what Josephus says. That's what Nero did with Christians. Like light their gardens with the bodies of Christians that are burning.

[00:23:55]He's not calling us to do so. So, we get silence there with Paul.

[00:23:59]But yet again, just like in the Old Testament, I think within a theocracy, submitting to God's law over the law of the land at the time is what's so important.

[00:24:11]But that's not going to always be clear-cut. And I think if anybody gives you a really clear-cut answer on all the details, I don't know if I'd listen to them. Uh would you relent that God is simultaneously all good, all-knowing, and all-powerful?

[00:24:24]Yes. If he's all-powerful, he would have the ability to prevent evil.

[00:24:28]If he's omnibenevolent, meaning that he's all good, uh he would have the inclination to like quell the evil. He'd want to prevent the evil. Or not even the inclination, it wouldn't the evil would be so incompatible Sorry, keep going. The evil would be so Yeah, let's just speed it up because we have 5 minutes left. The evil would be so incompatible with his nature >> Okay, so because he limited his his his own power he limited when he created us. Okay. And he gave us a free will. And by giving us a free will, >> Right. that was his ability to share his love, to have that type of connection.

[00:25:00]If he didn't let limit his power then Yes, but free will free will only explains man-made evil. Free will does not explain meaningless suffering. So, if you had a baby that was born the day that the volcano erupted and destroyed the city of Pompeii, that baby is seemingly just a casualty of God, right? Because there's nothing that we did in that situation to to cause the death of the suffering and the death and suffering of that innocent baby. And yet and I would just I agree with that.

[00:25:26]I would say 90% there's a direct correlation between our actions and the suffering itself. A lot of people would agree with that.

[00:25:33]That 10% where it's not connected to our direct actions, okay, the claim Genesis chapter 3 though is we cracked the door wide open. There doesn't have to be a direct connection.

[00:25:43]By us cracking the door wide open, it's from a cosmic level, total breakdown.

[00:25:48]From a sociological level, total breakdown. From a psychological level, total breakdown. And it just goes on and on and on. So, when you have something like animal suffering, yes, it's nothing that the animal did in and of itself, but it's the consequences of us cracking that door wide open and all hell broke loose. I I This is my question as a rebuttal to that. Um are there because it seems like that answer opens the door up for people possibly being casualties or like collateral damage, if that makes sense. I wrote over here um Just sadly like war. In just about every single war, there's been collateral damage.

[00:26:20]Right, but I I I wrote over here like if it is for a purpose, then does God does God love some people more than other people if he's willing to allow certain people to die or meaningless die as a sort of collateral damage? Because as you said, evil was opened up as a door.

[00:26:35]However many >> According to Luke chapter 13, when the Pharisees come and say, "Hey, why why is this man born blind here, Jesus? Explain it. Do you love him less? Is he less than?" No, Jesus says there's no direct correlation. He didn't do anything, his parents didn't do anything, but this was simply to show the glory of God through him, through his very suffering. Or in Luke chapter 13, why did this wall fall down on people and kill them? Was it something that were they less than in some kind of way? No, Christ says. There was not a direct correlation in somehow them being less than in their value or being loved less. It shows the entropy and the breakdown of this very world, the second law of thermodynamics.

[00:27:14]In that situation, like he you could say his purpose Sorry. You could say that his purpose would be to like be redeemed by God and therefore like his suffering would no longer be meaningless if that makes sense because there is a purpose to it.

[00:27:29]But sure. There's a ripple effect from any suffering. How do you know that there's no purpose to a certain form of suffering?

[00:27:35]How do I know that there's no purpose to a certain form of suffering?

[00:27:36]>> Yeah, you're saying that there could be a purpose. There are there are certain cases of suffering where there is truly no purpose. But look, I don't know for a fact either way. I'm not omniscient. But you would say that like the death of of a baby born the day of the Japanese tsunami, right? That that had a purpose behind it.

[00:27:56]And that's the specific death that individual. There was a purpose behind >> There could be suffering. There could be the suffering of that child made parents or adults or somebody who saw it happen start to think, "Hm, suffering in this world. Hm, this bomb.

[00:28:12]Maybe I should start asking deeper questions." Is the justification for the suffering worth the crime? So like it it the death of a baby is obviously this like existentially bad thing. It's this really really like I I would put that on the scale of over here. This is about as bad as it gets. And I would put the recognition of suffering as you just said from other people, that's a good thing, but that's not nearly as good as the death of that baby is bad, right? So at least in my mind and at least in the mind of many people, right? So I just don't understand I I I can't bridge that gap with you because to me it seems like there's still some left over if it was an equation, there's still some leftover that meaningless suffering in the situation in which like you know what I mean? It still seems unjust cuz you talk all the time about God and What's the better alternative? Cuz you're putting inestimable amount of value on this baby's life. Right.

[00:29:03]>> So why is that baby so valuable if there is no God? If he's not created in God's image, he has no objective value. So why is it a problem to begin with? Secondly, the Bible clearly describes that that baby is going to be in heaven. That baby will be in heaven. Yes, but I'm operating within the parameters of Christianity. So you're saying why is it so bad? Like the alternative is like well, if suffering But it's like if there is no God, then meaningless suffering and meaningful it doesn't matter. It's not a problem for the atheist as it is a problem for the Christian. It's a problem for the Christian. No, it's a problem that bothers the atheist. It is a problem for the atheist. This is why C.S. Lewis became a Christian. It pushed him to objectivity. It's an objective thing.

[00:29:40]It's a subjective experience, but he knew intellectually it was objective. I think but that's just the conclusion that he came to. I I don't see how I can bring that >> Well, that that was bred out of the death of his wife.

[00:29:52]Yeah. That wasn't him just like spinning ideas in his little ivory tower.

[00:29:57]Like that that came out of his experience. It's pretty powerful. It's a pretty powerful argument.

[00:30:01]>> Right, that's correct. And I don't want to take too much time but we've got people who've been asking questions that are long-winded but I appreciate No, thank you, man. Thank you so much, Justin.