South Africa doesn't look like you think it does

Hinzugefügt: 2026-06-02

[00:00:11]Hello. Hello ladies and gentlemen and welcome to another episode of the Daily Friends Show. I'm your host Nicholas Lurmer. Today joined by Mr. Michael Morris.

[00:00:20]Today we're going to be starting off with a look at the actual state of service delivery in South Africa. What are the underlying facts of what South Africa actually looks like? I think a lot of South Africans don't really have a great idea of how South Africa looks under the hood. So, we're going to be referring to the general household survey which was released yesterday by Stats SA. This is a survey that tracks the progress of development and is supposed to identify persistent service delivery gaps in South Africa. And I'm going to be quoting a bit from the summary um just to get some insight into various aspects of South Africa's society. And this is maybe more interesting than you'd expect. You may learn things about the country that you didn't know before. Let's start off with this one. The state of families in South Africa. Almost one in five children, 18.5% lived with neither biological parent.

[00:01:13]Uh and only a third or just under a third lived with both of their parents.

[00:01:18]Almost half of all children in South Africa were growing up in a in uh with a single parent, their mother looking after them in most cases. uh and a small percentage with with only a father.

[00:01:30]Orphanhood affected 11.2% of children, which to me seems a kind of a staggeringly high number. This suggests that many South African families are broken. Uh you have single mothers struggling to raise kids, which is extremely difficult because there's a just not enough hours in the day um to work or or to to to get money and to to raise kids. Um and also a shocking number of households that are headed by children possibly looking after their younger siblings.

[00:02:03]So um we also have uh uh some insight into the nature of education in South Africa. We've heard a lot in recent years about how early childhood development is really important. That's essentially school before school um between the ages of zero and four. But only about a third of children attend early childhood development facilities.

[00:02:25]Now, when it comes to um people attending school, the numbers are pretty high. It's pretty much universal. 97.1% of kids under the age of 15 are attending school. So that's, you know, between uh five and 15.

[00:02:41]But when you look deeper, things are more complicated. We know from other stories we've talked about on the show before that a huge number of students drop out after they reach grade after they finish grade nine. Um so those f those final three years of high school uh um where people actually are getting their metric uh sees an enormous number of dropouts and um I think this is an indicator of how bad the quality of education is for many students. 8.8% 8% of 21 year olds are still attending high school in South Africa um because they have failed and are trying to uh basically having to redo schooling.

[00:03:21]Um now in the overall numbers the the amount of educational achievement has improved significantly since the early 2000s. In 2002 over 10% of South Africans had no education. That has declined to 2.6% 6% in 2025 and the share with a national senior certificate which is metric has increased from 30% to 53% of South Africans. So majority of South Africans now have um a metric only or at least a metric or or or and and even more if you include uh people who have degrees.

[00:03:58]Let's look at medical aid. um only around I think it's 15% of the population has access to private medical aids but in contrast to I think many of the talking points by by politicians black Africans account for 52% of all medical aid beneficiaries um and if you include uh colored and Indian South Africans in that you'll see you can imagine that you know white South Africans actually make up a relatively small percentage of the total um number of medical aid beneficiaries.

[00:04:32]Uh now some of these figures are seem like things are okay um that things are kind of good. You look at the number of people living in formal dwellings. So this is people who are not living in shacks and that number is up to 84% about 12% of people continue to live in shacks. There's also of course been significant um a improvement of access to water and sanitation uh since the early 2000s uh with for example the Eastern Cape in terms of sanitation seeing a 54 percentage point increase in the in the availability of sanitation facilities.

[00:05:11]But uh we also see some downsides when it comes to where people get their money. Um, we of course know that the unemployment rate is extremely high on the expanded definition being around 42 43%.

[00:05:24]By 2025, 40% of individuals and 50% of households received grants. Um, and the grants were the main source of income for about 20 just under 25% of households nationally.

[00:05:41]So a quarter of people in South Africa are living primarily off of grants they receive from the state. Uh which is a kind of crazy number. Um just over half are living primarily off of salaries and wages with about 54% of households.

[00:05:56]But there's major disparities in that number between different provinces. The Western Cape for example, about 70% of people get their primary income from uh u being employed from a salary, but only 40% of people in the Eastern Cape get their income primarily from a salary. An interesting statistic that I noticed here um is that the number of people living in formal houses, as I said, was about 84%. is actually lower than the number of people who have achieved um access to the internet with about 85.6% of South Africans having access to the internet. Uh the amount number of people with electricity has increased from 76% in 2002 to 90% in 2025.

[00:06:44]The number of people using wood in their cooking and heating has declined from 20% to 8%. And paraffin has gone from 16% to about 2%.

[00:06:55]So a lot of interesting stuff then we're only scratching the surface of the general household survey. But Michael, what do you think these statistics tell us about what South Africa is actually like? Um it's a bit of a mixed bag. In some cases to me it seems like there have been actually some significant improvements. We I think a lot of people think of South poverty in South Africa as being a thing where vast numbers of people living in shacks and just you know never seeing the light of day and the small upper crust of white people basically living off of all of the private services. But then most people don't live in shacks and black Africans are the majority of medical aid. But at the same time, we have these huge problems with where people get their money, unemployment, um, uh, broken families. What's your take on all of this?

[00:07:46]>> Yes, you know, it's looking at the looking at the nitty-gritty. Well, looking at them both actually, I think it's very is very important. Um, and just before we we sort of get into into more more detail, just considering that I just wanted to to emphasize this point that Stats SA really is a vital state institution in South Africa. Um, it's it is we've heard over the years been kind of seriously underfunded in some senses.

[00:08:12]Um but all credit to statistician general Rena Maluc and his uh clearly very um very adept staff, very skillful staff who keep doing who keep doing this work. Um and as he puts it in in the introduction to this very detailed survey um which just to to to emphasize what what Nicholas said right at the beginning, it it's it's it's a household survey covering uh research from January to December 2025. So, full 12-month period. It's an omnibus household survey. And he says quite rightly it's designed to support evidence-based planning, moni monitoring, evaluation of socioeconomic development outcomes. And he wouldn't necessarily say, but we would certainly say, and to shape policy, to get policy makers to focus on a what's what's h really happening, what isn't happening, what's good, and what's bad. Um and this really is an absolutely vital resource for that purpose. We use it a lot at the IR the CRA our partners research ar of the IR they rely on all this data too. Um and it you know it really does present us with a pretty accurate picture uh of what's happening down in the at the household level of South Africa. So just to um I mean that you know the points you raised about the number of children um living with neither biological parent or you know fewer than a third living with both parents. These are all horrifying things. Um I know people you know lot of people get get a bit exasperated when people like me in my late 60s keep talking about the past but you know we can trace the so many of these patterns back to a very long history. Well, long in in a southern African, modern Southern African sense of certainly more than 100 years of you know massive migrant labor uh um practices which meant that you know men folk would go off for months at a time to work. Families were were put under huge strain uh the poverty that came with a lot of the policym and so on. So we can see, you know, in the some of these figures, um, I think we can certainly see the the lingering effects of that and it's going to take a while to um to to correct that. I think generally better off people tend to be uh more secure, more family oriented. Um certainly, you know, they have a different scale of of priorities perhaps. Uh they have the wherewithal to to exercise those sorts of choices. So, it's going to I think it's going to take time, but what what we see here is the reality. This is the reality. It's a it's a pretty um it's a pretty tough series of figures. Um female headed households 42.6%. That's that's quite astonishing. And in the countryside, 47.6%. So, almost half of of rural um households in South Africa are headed by women. You know, that's really quite a thing. So it emphasizes again also the importance to so many people millions of people of the the grants uh regime that we have in South Africa and the millions of people who are dependent on them and I just wanted to look at one um detail there which I thought was was was quite interesting um it's you you mentioned for instance that um that in 2025 uh 39.5 so 40% of of of people and and exactly half of households every that's those are the numbers I wanted to use you you spoke about um salaries and wages no it wasn't that one either it was um sorry I'm trying to find the the number of people who who depended on grants and I can't quite see it here can you see it Nicholas >> it's about 20 23.4% 4%.

[00:12:13]>> Okay, there we go. So, what is interesting is that 39 or 40% of individuals and exactly half of households benefited from grant. So, even if they were among the 54% who for whom salaries and wages remained the main source of income, nevertheless, half of them were still benefiting from grants. It's you can actually see um the main source of income for nearly a quarter. Yeah. 23.4% of households. So that that quarter they absolutely depend on the grants. But 50% half of South Africans are still getting grants and that's part of the income.

[00:12:54]It's part of the household income. It's part of how we live. And this this really does shape a great deal of the kinds of choices that people can make.

[00:13:02]You think of education. There was that little number um that I noted. I'm sorry. There there are so many numbers here that you have to kind of concentrate quite carefully but uh the very high number of people who of of kids who are still going to no fee schools um and I just need to find that because it is >> the it's the vast majority um of going to to no fee schools >> and and we can pretty much uh guess that these are people who are not doing that by choice. Um the there's a huge uh premium placed on education. Households know it, parents know it. Even in the poorest communities, we see the you know the the gradual improvement in um in the the sort of overall education metrics.

[00:13:52]The share of of people with at least a national senior certificate of grade 12 metric has increased from 30% to 53%.

[00:14:01]Uh between 2002 and 2025. So this is a steady improvement there. But but nevertheless, for many of them, for most of them, they are compelled uh to go to schools that are state schools where we know there is a great deal of of of dysfunction uh and and and and malfcence and so on. Very similar kind of circumstances that apply in hospitals and other services. But schools obviously critical thing. So this is the future of the country and um and and you know what what we really need to see is these figures these numbers being fed into the kind of thinking that we need to turn those schools around as well as turning the households around. I mean the economic growth, jobs, that's going to lift those people into positions where they can begin to make choices and not necessarily rely on uh on on a deficient uh state funded schooling, but state funed schooling doesn't need to be deficient. You know, it can it can actually be fixed. So this is really why these sorts of numbers I think are are terribly important. Um and then just finally on the on the medical aid um point it this also reflects something terribly important I think about South African society. One of the things that um Murka brings out in his in his summary is that the um the number of individuals covered by medical aid actually declined very slightly from 2002 to 2025 which a little bit worrying >> or the percentage >> not the overall number >> in percentage say so 15.9 to 15.5 so essentially it stayed pretty much the same but but what the reality beneath that is that the number of people the number of individuals of beneficiaries of that kind of service private medical aid have increased 3 million from 7.3 to 10 to 10 million. So that that's a I think a really significant thing. That's a choice that people are making. It's not something that they compelled to do.

[00:16:04]It's not something that other people are making them do. It this is a reflection of choice. And even though and here's the tragedy in a sense that you you know the the black African population accounts for 52.2% of total number of of of medical aid members but in fact only 9.9 10% of black people are medical aid members. Uh and we can be absolutely sure that that is not a question of choice but a question of options. So what we seeing here you know I think throughout that that very significant figure about the internet access that's again it's something that people are the figure represents a choice that private people are making this is something they want it's transformative for them the same applies to all the all these other things >> more people have access to the internet than live in formal houses which is kind of crazy when you think about it in some ways.

[00:16:59]>> Exactly. Exactly. Um and every day I'm it's borne home to me how transformative uh the cell phone is to people who uh are you know certainly not living middle class lives but I but have access to the whole range of things from banking to to to you know medical services to policing and so on and friends just and and family you know thousand miles away all these things have been enormously transformative for people in a very real sense.

[00:17:30]not in the fake sense that we we so often read about. Um so very very interesting figures I think um all credit as I say to Ringa Malule for uh for for all this work and his staff. I think it really is very fascinating. Um, and it does, as you say, bring out some of these uh seeming contradictions in a way, but it's they're not really what they're showing is the contradiction of our condition that we, you know, we we desperately need clever policy, clever regulatory arrangements that enable people to make more and more choices for themselves um and to um to to improve their own lives. Um, and in that way the state actually can do a great deal to help but not by pretending that it knows better um and uh and can step in and decide for people.

[00:18:21]>> Yeah. No, exactly. I think um it also complicates some of the sort of the the the the picture of South Africa in you know let's say 1990 with this where you know you can really see the racial stratification and how in some ways that has uh broken down um with you know you've got lots of uh black South Africans taking part in the private sector and and you know benefiting from medical aids and people getting access to electricity and housing all that but then also as you say these kind of extreme disparity is the fact that only 10% of black South Africans have access to medical aid. Um, showing that, you know, we've we've essentially created a a much more multi-racial middle class.

[00:19:06]Um but then there's still this huge chunk of South Africans who are kind of just struggling to get along and they have access to a state that provides them with important resources and services but also pretty low quality resources and services. And you can see that for example in the in the education statistics right most people are getting schooling but then you know huge numbers of kids are having to repeat or drop out because it's all just you know that kind of difficult or hopeless or the schools are not very good. Um and that's I think exactly uh or a place that a lot of politicians particularly on the sort of ANC EFF side don't really want to talk about because when you start talking about quality of services and things it really I think complicates the picture and moves the conversation away from this sort of straightforward redistributionist arguments uh or we must take from here. No, no, we must actually fix the things we do have. We have actually this expansive state. It just doesn't work very well.

[00:20:03]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. With all that in mind, let's briefly talk about uh uh President Ramapor's court challenge to the Palopala impeachment inquiry.

[00:20:17]So, um it was ruled relatively recently uh that parliament had to consider um the uh NOBO report into uh Impala Pala and basically that a impeachment hearing had to go ahead. Not that the president had to be impeached, but essentially that the trial had to be held um regarding his potential impeachment in reviewing um the activities that happened at with Pala Pala and the theft of money from that couch and why it wasn't reported to the police etc etc. So Roma is challenging this in court. Um he's uh said that his legal papers say that I submit that the panel misconceived its mandate, misjudged the information placed before it and misinterpreted the four charges advanced against me. Um the first uh challenge that Rap's legal team has brought is that um uh a stringent enough test uh was not applied to to the evidence um and to the information uh that uh the panel interpreted the rules as requiring to weigh in on whether there was a Prima Fakia case for the president to answer and concluded that there was. But they say that it should rather have been a um test as to whether he was guilty um rather than whether he just had a case to answer. Um they they also argue that um the the panel included evidence that shouldn't have been included such as some of the testimony by uh Arthur Frraasier um as to what exactly happened in this case and also shouldn't have included for example like Namibian police report and such. So quite a legal technical argument here and I think it sort of misses the point in a way which is that ultimately impeachments are much more of a political process than a legal process. Now you know sometimes I think maybe our courts will decide differently but the way impeachment when you go back to its historical roots was first conceived because it's a it's something inherited from from the British system um is that when a uh when the legislature this this case parliament holds that um a senior political leader has committed some sort of gross crime that they must be sort of punished for it and removed from office and lose benefits of that office etc etc. That process is ultimately a political judgment and you know if Ramapora survives this impeachment inquiry it's not going to be because the facts lined up in such a way that they were forced by the law to vote one way. No, it'll be because the ANC um remained entirely united behind him and no one broke ranks. Conversely, uh if he gets impeached, it's going to be because the political forces have changed in such a way as the president uh as as the sub members of the ANC to vote along with all the other parties in impeaching the president. So, I think this there's also something in this uh in his legal challenge that essentially kind of says that no, I can't be impeached unless a panel finds me guilty of things that I need to be impeached for beforehand.

[00:23:39]Well, then what's the point of an impeachment process or an impeachment trial? It just seems kind of silly. I don't know. Michael, what do you make of all this? And do you think the president might be able to kind of, you know, I don't know, slide past this whole impeachment matter?

[00:23:53]I I'm not really sure, you know, it's becoming more and more complex by by the day almost. Um but if I if I just sort of step back for a moment you know for a long time I think there was a fear almost an assumption um in among among the general populace um that to I can't resist mixing it terrible that the sofa was going to be swept under the carpet.

[00:24:17]Um but yeah forgive me I'll I'll I'll wash my mouth out with soap later. Um but there was there was that sense you know and and there were jokes about it and you know cartoons and all the rest of it and then suddenly it kind of became very serious because of two sort of upstartish parties having gone to the constitutional court to say hang on you know we we're not satisfied. Um and there might have been even you know some uh ridiculing of that exercise when it began but by the time it ended um you know the president of the country was was in a bit of a pickle and everybody had to sit up and think carefully about what they were going to do next. So to me, you know, um, and I absolutely agree with you that, you know, it's it's it's it's I mean, clearly it's it is a political process and we need it to be also. It's I think it's quite a good thing to preserve that. But I suspect it's it'll be that anyway, won't it? To me, in a way, the virtue of relying on the law is that you you do then have to at least present arguments, have to do it quite publicly. you have to um not sort of think in terms of resorting to executive force or whatever political chain in the background it might might work in your favor. You have to somehow present uh rational position. Um and you know I think back to our last discussion we were chatting about Jordan Hill and and his his response to this and he's saying well you know we need to see what the evidence is. we need to go into this process, see what is is revealed um and you know make a decision on on that basis and so to me there's so many things going wrong in in in so many ways in our country but one of the things that that we managed to sustain I think quite effectively is basically this idea of process rule of law um and not always not always I mean but this is quite a signal instance of it um and if we can make this the uh more of the convention or the tradition of our quite young democracy.

[00:26:29]I mean I suppose all democracies inevitably have these difficulties um and we look around the world today and we see so many countries that are with seemingly you know fairly established institutional systems um fraying a little bit at the seams. So it it there always are under pressure. Um and um but I I still think my my sense is a generally positive one about this. I I'm I'm almost not quite as interested in the outcome as as in the fact that it is playing out like this quite >> I think I agree with that too. If we if we were sliding into a kind of authoritarianism, right, this process wouldn't happen. But because the political dynamics are changing in our country and we're getting the sort of new life of political competition uh this process will go ahead and you know razor may survive it.

[00:27:18]>> But the fact that it's playing out a little bit like the fact that the Matlunga commission is playing out uh means that there's there's there's more life in this democracy than one might imagine. H and the risk of course I mean and I think that's partly what your your argument is is undermining is is that we we kind of outsource our responsibility to this fairly abstract thing when in fact what we've got to confront is a real political issue it's in our hands you know and that um and that everybody's got to be subjected to it and we've got to make sure that people are subjected to it and we can't you know we can't just applaud when there are these um these darling uh instances of um this this wonderful democracy, our constitutional democracy.

[00:28:05]>> South Africa is very good at >> at finding out the wrongdoing and the mistakes and the problems, but then actually doing something about it.

[00:28:13]That's the bit where we fall down.

[00:28:15]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um so it is Yeah. It's get be very interesting to watch. Um and uh Yeah.

[00:28:26]All right, let's move on to our last story. Uh, and this is a story about the Refugee Appeals Authority of South Africa, which apparently has more than 161,000 asylum appeals on its books. Um, these are people from other countries who have come here to seek political asylum, essentially running away from violence or or something like that. But uh there's a huge backlog 161,000 um and 90,000 of those applicants who are appealing you know an initial decision as to to not allow them in have uh disappeared. Their whereabouts is not known. Could be in South Africa they might not be uh essentially making them um illegal immigrants. Now in the broader picture of immigration in South Africa, this is uh I would say um moderately significant but not the not the majority of the picture. So according to stats they say there's about around about 3 million immigrants in South Africa which I think is much less than many people think. It's about 5% of South Africa's population. Of those about 15 to 33%ish, so 500,000 to a million are estimated to be illegal.

[00:29:42]Um the majority of immigrants in South Africa are from the Saddak countries. So that's Zimbabwe, South A Zimbabwe, Lutu, Mozambique, uh Zambia, um Namibia, Angola, this whole sort of southern chunk of Africa. Uh and another interesting thing has been the increasing number of deportations of people who are here illegally. So in financial year 2022 2023 there were about 40,000 deportations of illegal immigrants. Um in the most recent financial year that had increased to 110,000 uh under DA minister of home affairs Leon Shriber. But my sense from all of this, Michael, is I think it is an interesting example of how a lot of the the discourse currently going on about immigration and xenophobia and all these sort of things um is really hypercharged by the perceived failures of government just to be able to do simple things like manage a backlog of applicants. uh and that contributes to this feeling that the government just really doesn't care and that this issue is completely out of control. What's your take on all this?

[00:30:53]>> Indeed, I'm I'm briefly distracted by my Scottish dog appearing to express an opinion on on this subject. Um but >> Scottish dog, you know, he has a lot of opinions on immigration, I suppose.

[00:31:05]>> Exactly. Exactly.

[00:31:07]And which he expresses quite forcefully usually. Um and uh yeah um for me though I mean the whole issue of asylum seekers, refugees, foreigners, quer xenophobia and so on breaks down for me into two two parts. The one is kind the kind of basic humanity that you know we we we are basically humane to whoever the person happens to be. Um and one must proceed steal oneself to proceed on that. just try to be kind to whoever the person is, stranger, alien, whatever the case might be. But on the other hand is the recognizing the extreme importance of any sort of administrative justice coming down to a good policy that's properly implemented properly sort of uh uh researched and based on you know we've just been talking about the stats essay and all those all that research based on you know what can we cope with in the country.

[00:32:09]Can we can we just be be kind to whoever comes along and let them stay or whatever? But if we can't and if we've got to set limits and if we've got to guide this process towards a more rational sort of outcome, it then has to be really really well managed set out made very plain. um just only today in fact I've I've heard anecdotally of people I know um who are planning already to leave the country because they don't have papers um and they beginning to feel even here in the western Cape although you know I think the the protests have spread down here but we we've so far it hasn't really been as prominent here but uh just feeling vulnerable feeling too vulnerable and and needing to go and you know so the question is is that a good thing or a bad thing? Well, unfortunately the xenophobes and the people who who you know use illegal immigration as the thing that they don't don't like. And even perhaps the people who just quite rationally and sensibly think, you know, we we can't just keep adding to our population. Maybe they will applaud this. Um but I don't think it's it represents a solution. I don't think chasing people away is going to be the solution there. Somehow these two things have to be brought closer together. Um, and I realize that, you know, mine is is a bit of a wishy-washy um old-fashioned hippie sort of approach to to this thing, but not entirely. I mean, I recognize, you know, you got to have a good policy. And when we talk about immigrants, you know, we're talking about people who have nil skills and people who have very very high skills.

[00:33:43]Um, and it's the combination of the two.

[00:33:46]We have to deal with this. We're living in a in a world that's more mobile than has ever been in the past. and and you know human mobility is this is really one of the things that defines us as as people. We we we make choices. Free people make choices. Um and they will strive to do what they really want to do. Um and sometimes that is a good thing. You know, you actually want maybe you want those kinds of people who will go to all that trouble to get to you to come and live with you. Maybe those are the people you really want. Yeah, >> in general, immigrants are a self- selecting group, right? They're people with more kind of energy, action, and motivation because moving countries, even if you don't have anything to move because you, you know, you're very destitute, >> it's a hell of a thing. It's really difficult. And, you know, even if you get enscconced in a in an immigrant community in the place you've moved to, it's still a very alien and difficult experience for for many people.

[00:34:43]>> Yeah. So, you know, I think that's also one of the reasons why we do see um immigrants quite often uh succeeding when they move is is because essentially the most motivated, hardest working people in another country are the ones who who usually move. I think one of the things that kind of contributes as well here is that some of these, you know, the whole process of refugees and asylums is specifically meant to be for people who are fearing like civil war, political persecution, stuff like that.

[00:35:12]And you know in Africa there's plenty of that to go around. So unfortunately there are a lot of people who are very legitimately want those things.

[00:35:19]Unfortunately I think the process is quite clearly in many countries around the world being abused essentially by people who are economic migrants.

[00:35:27]>> Um who very understandably want to go to a place where there are more economic opportunities and jobs and that sort of thing.

[00:35:34]>> And so they you know uh will leave apply uh for for asylum in another country.

[00:35:40]highlight the, you know, bad political state of their country even though it may not necessarily have actually in their own personal lives be sufficient to justify um their their flight on those grounds because the real reason they're coming is for economics and that contributes I think to the problem because then uh you know as so often happens in these immigration debates is distinctions which are very important illegal legal uh here for economic reasons here for political reasons uh here who are contributing to society here who are you know a member of a criminal gang all of these >> uh get kind of mashed together and it it creates more cynicism and hostility to the whole process.

[00:36:24]>> Yeah.

[00:36:26]>> Any final thoughts from you Michael before we close up? I was just thinking I mean you know uh years ago when I was working working the weekend August here in Cape Town I went off to um to interview this terrifically urbane artisan who settled in Cape Town and had a good business in the central city and um and the first thing he'd come from Dhau and the and I thought to myself well the thing that I'd perhaps most really want to hear about is this this amazing journey that he must have had getting from Dar to to South Africa, you know, it's a vast continent and and you you conjure up all these um all these absurdly sort of almost romanticized notions of what it takes to get from there to here. And I thought, well, you know, I'll begin with that and we that'll take we'll chat for, you know, five, six, seven minutes and we get used to each other and stuff. And so I asked him this question and he said, I flew to Johannesburg.

[00:37:23]So he took and you see you know you realize u you know he was somebody who had wherewithal he he to bought a ticket he must have had all the adequate paperwork and so on um but he you know he and he was coming here because there was an economic opportunity that that he felt uh he didn't have in Dhaka um so you know this is somebody who's an asset to our societ society. But if we get two million of him, perhaps that does become an issue.

[00:37:58]You know, as a society, we need >> Well, that's the thing is is is is I think, you know, people do instinctively when you kind of lay it all out understand that, you know, someone from the UK who's a doctor or like a scientist or a you know, extremely skilled craftsman from from Sagal or uh, you know, an Indian neurosurgeon or something. it's definitely someone you want. This is unambiguously a sort of a good thing.

[00:38:26]>> And then there's people in the middle who provide sort of you know who maybe start a business or do something or you know are a very good worker and then >> people get a little bit less accepting but they generally sort of see the point and then there's always this fear that there's going to be people who are just completely destitute who are just going to come and live off of government services and get grants and that sort of thing. you know, undoubtedly that does happen to a certain degree. But, uh, I think part of the problem in not making these distinctions very clearly is that people uh exaggerate the the the size of their particular depending on their view on immigration of of of what immigrants actually are. they're all super positive contributors or they're all terrible drains and criminals and all that. But obviously the answer is very complicated because it's a it's a complicated mixture of both. Um and that's, you know, something I think really should be more considered in our in our public discussions these things. It's just there's sort of nuance and complexity to these things. And it requires a nuanced and complex response. Not vigilante gangs running around chasing people with sticks into buses and beating them in the streets, which you know, unfortunately seems to be what's happening currently.

[00:39:38]>> Anyway, we shall be back tomorrow on the Daily Friend Show. Cheers everyone. Hope you have a wonderful day and uh we'll see you. Bye-bye.

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