This video provides a visceral case study on how systemic neglect and early trauma institutionalize individuals long before they ever step foot in a cell. It powerfully demonstrates that breaking the cycle of recidivism requires addressing deep-seated psychological scars rather than merely punishing their symptoms.
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A Vicious Cycle Of Drugs And Prison | MonsterAdded:
We go inside this house. I'm like looking around. It's shady. It's dark.
It's all filled with smoke. It smells in there, you know. He gives the guy $20 and he gets two dimes from him and he and he cooks him up. Is all freebase back and there was no hard back. And he's got this big glass ball and I see the smoke going through and he smokes it and then he's just standing there. I'm like, "What the hell was the matter with him?" So, like, "All right, give it to me." Like, nothing happens. I'm like, "Man, give him my $10 back." He's like, "No, no, no. Do another one." So, I did that second one and instantly I felt like Superman. I thought no, you know, I felt like I was invincible. Nothing could happen. When I did that, that second one, I remember in my mind going, "You're in trouble, man. You're in big trouble." And I >> So, Chris, me and you, we knew each other when we were in the street. You end up, you know, going to state prison.
You end up going to federal prison. I get a 40-year sentence. Tell me about you and what your life was like growing up in Rochester.
Well, I was born on the east side of uh Parcels and Culver uh Hazlewood Terrace and um we we were we were real poor. Um my mom and my father got together in 1969 and my dad was 24 and my mom was only 15. It's funny because I joke to my dad and I tell him I said, "Man, if you were uh you were on a yard that I was on, I'd have to stab you up for what you did with my mom." You know what I mean?
But uh they got married when she was 16, had my brother, had me when when I was or she had me when she was 18. And then by the time she was 20, my dad was gone.
So we didn't have nothing in the house, you know what I mean? And uh it was so bad that my mom used to have to put padlocks on the cupboards so that me and my brother wouldn't eat all the food. So we grew up pretty rough. And uh my mom met this dude and uh you know he had money and he moved us out of the hood but he always resented me and my brother because we weren't his kids. So he was real physically abusive to me and uh I stayed with him till I was about 10 years old. And uh then he didn't want me around no more. And basically they got rid of me at that point. And uh I went to stay with a teacher and uh I ended up getting sexually molested by this teacher when I was 10 years old. And uh as a result of that, I started starting fires and uh I got arrested and the school signed a pins petition on me. My mother signed a pins petition on me and I got charges for arson and some other stuff. I ended up going to the DFY, the division for youth at 11 years old and I did about five years in there. So let me let me ask you this. You so you say at 10 years old you end up moving out of your house and you go live with a school teacher.
>> Yeah.
>> How did it feel to have to leave your house at 10? like separated from your mother.
>> Um, it was it it was hard, but you know what? I didn't want to be there because it he was so physically abusive to me. I mean I mean like he would beat me so bad when I was a kid that I couldn't go to school cuz I was covered in bruises, you know? So I thought at the time when they were letting me go that I was going into a better situation, but really I was getting into a worse situation that I wasn't prepared for. You know what I mean? And uh like I said, I got sent away and uh I was at the East F Street Detention Center at 11 years old. You know, I was the only white kid in there and uh you know, I grew up around a racist families and they were always dropping the n-word and I didn't know that it wasn't okay to say that. So, man, I was I was getting my ass whooped every day at 11 and 12 years old by these black kids in the in the in the system. But, uh it was pretty wild.
>> Let's talk a little bit about that.
Right. You're 11 years old. You're going into was it a secure detention?
>> Oh yeah, razor wire and everything.
Locked in my cell.
>> Where was it at Industry? Where was it at?
>> Well, I was at East Ferry Street detention center and then I went to industry and then from industry I went to Lincoln Hall down in Westchester County and from Lincoln Hall I went to St. Joseph's Villa.
>> That's crazy, man. Lincoln Hall, St. I mean I remember, man, I ain't heard Lincoln Hall in probably 30 years.
Right. You're 11 years old. You're in there. Are you fighting? I mean, are they hitting you? You said because you're using the N-word.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know any better.
You know what I mean? I didn't know that. I didn't know anything about racism. I had just come up around that, you know what I mean? I wasn't really exposed to any black kids or anything like that as I was growing up. So, I I didn't know, you know what I mean? So, I I I got my learn on real quick, though.
>> And that's where I learned to fight, too.
>> So, you're you're fighting back back then.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Man, I just It's hard to imagine being 11 years old, locked in a secure detention center. You're in a cell, single cells back then, right?
>> Yeah.
>> The low beds like this high off the ground, the little >> Everything was concrete. Yeah. And there was like big metal wire screen on the windows and stuff like that. And then every morning they would crack us out and we would go take showers and they just have a stack of underwear in the in the hallway and you have to just take underwear. You don't know who had them on yesterday. You know what I mean? They have one bar of deodorant for every kid to use. It was crazy.
>> I remember them days at Westfall Road.
>> Yeah. Yeah. West.
>> Same same thing. They come out with the underwear, all of that stuff. You want to change, you're like, and you're you know, you're a young kid. 11. How does an 11-year-old kid get through that? I mean, are there times when you're at that metal window and you're depressed like, man, look where I'm at, man.
>> Yeah. I remember crying out out that window, wishing my dad or my mom would come get me. But wasn't happening.
>> Not happening at all.
>> Yeah.
>> Mom never comes back. Mom never says, "Hey, I'm getting rid of this dude. I want my kids back."
>> No.
>> Are you serious?
>> Yeah.
>> A matter of fact, she never even visited me once during the during the whole time I was locked up. I think my father came to see me one time when I was at Lincoln Hall. So, it was pretty rough.
11-year-old kid. Mom doesn't come. No one's there.
>> Nobody.
>> You know, when you look at the kids in the street now, like I say, you know, it's it's a character problem. It's it's a it's a cultural problem where, you know, the kids are acting this way because look, mom ain't there. Single family households, there is no father.
There is no example, >> right, >> dude? It it's hard to even fathom that your mom's not coming for an 11-year-old kid. Where are your brothers at at the time? Um, well, my older brother had gotten kicked out of the house before even I did. And he went to stay with a friend of his at another house and he actually, you know, he had it better than I did. So, >> so your brother's stay whose house is he staying at?
>> A friend of his from from school. He's a little bit older than me, so he was in high school at that time.
>> Are you ever thinking like wish my brother could come get me?
>> Um, well, for me, you know, I used to take a lot of the a lot of the abuse for my brother. So like if my brother did something, I would get the blame for it and I would take the beating so he wouldn't have to. So and you know even now my brother I think he has a lot of guilt over that he feels bad that he wasn't able to help me or or or protect me. You know what I mean? Older brothers are supposed to look out for their little brothers but I didn't see it that way and I don't hold no grudges against them for that. We're and we're and we're close now. So >> So you know there's people like you going to be watching the the channel and watching this interview and they're going to wonder I know you talked about setting fires. What do you actually go there for? Because you do four or five years. Is it for arson?
>> Yeah, it was for arson and pins petition.
>> Pins person in need of supervision back there.
>> Yeah.
>> So the arson, what are you burning?
You're burning buildings, you're burning houses, you're burning paper, you're burning animals. What are you doing? So, I set a a laundry me and a buddy of mine were out and uh it was winter time and we went into a laundry mat and I thought it'd be a good idea to put a bunch of newspapers in the dryer, light them on fire and you know we were going to get warm but you know the the vents behind the dryer is all full of lint and the whole place went up. Man, >> where was this at?
>> Uh Alden, New York.
>> Alden, New York.
>> Yeah. So, I it ended up doing like back then it would had I think it was 1981 and did like $60,000 worth of damage to this laundromat. So, it was pretty serious. You talked about your mom met this dude. He had money.
>> Was your mom because you know you said your mom was single. Your dad left.
Tough. So she meets this dude with money. Does that change her as a person?
>> Yeah. So before when my father left and before this dude came into the picture, I remember there was different dude. My it was my mom, my mom's two sisters and this other lady that all we they all lived in the house and me, my brother, my cousin and that other lady's daughter. We all lived in the house. And every day there was different dudes, you know, they were doing what they had to do to survive, you know, different dudes in my house every night. And everybody was always partying and doing drugs and [ __ ] like that. And uh, you know, when this dude came around, that all changed, you know.
>> Yeah. So, I know you're not that much old, a little older than me, but I remember back then, you know, in our neighborhood, it was a lot of bikers back then. Biker chicks. They're, you know, listening to Bob Seager and drinking them Millers in a in a bottle.
You remember all that?
>> Oh, yeah. My dad was a biker. So, you know, some of my some of my, you know, me two or three years old, I got pictures sitting on choppers in the front yard and stuff like that. They thought that stuff was cool, you know.
>> So, that's So, that's not where I'm going with that, right? Was your mom like a biker chick back then?
>> She was a hippie. Yeah.
>> So, then does she transform from being that to getting with this guy that's got money to more of a we changed our life?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> So, she changes her life, but she forgets about you.
>> Yeah. I think what it came down to was uh you know she had to choose between did she want to be with this guy who kept her nice and comfortable or did she want to keep her kids and go back to living in poverty with locks on the cabinets and she chose you know that bougie life you know. So >> this dude had money. What did he do? I'm just curious.
>> He was a salesman for a refrigeration company.
>> And you talked about him abusing you, punching you, kicking you. Like >> tell me a little bit about it.
>> So like uh one time um trying to think of what I did. I don't even remember what I did. But, you know, he came home and he grabbed me by my chest and sunk his fingernails deep in and he picked me right up off the ground and threw me across and I had these marks in my chest and he would beat me with a belt. So, I was black and blue from my shoulder blades to my knees, you know, and then I wouldn't be able to go to school for a week because the first time I did go to school, they, you know, used to change into gym shorts and uh the gym teacher seen all the bruises and they reported it to the school. So anytime after that that I was all messed up, they wouldn't let me go to school.
>> And this is when you're 10, 11 years old.
>> Yeah. Even a little younger than that.
>> Does mom ever do any type of intervention like, "Hey, that's my son."
>> Not one time.
>> No.
>> You are you ever thinking like, "Man, I want to get out of this house. I just don't want to be here no more."
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, when drugs and alcohol started for me was about 10 years old because I was looking for an escape. You know, >> at 10 years old, you're drinking, smoking weed.
>> Yeah.
>> Don't really know about it. you're just like, "Hey." And how do you get introduced to that?
>> Uh, you know, hanging out with older kids. I was always hanging around with the older kids because the kids my age were, you know, still still young and soft. And then, you know, I was looking for the for the the more harder kids, you know, the older ones that were getting into trouble because that's what I was doing, you know.
>> And then you just progress.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you go, we talked about this, you go in there for the arson, right?
>> So, while you're in there for arson, >> you're using the nword. Dudes are fighting you. You stop using the N word probably eventually, right? Pretty quick.
>> You learn you learn to stop that. But are there kids in there like abusing kids? Are I mean, is does the staff care?
>> Uh, at East Street Detention Center, no, not at all. I mean, they I I they used to let us go in the gym and fight. They they thought that was cool, you know, but at Lincoln Hall, it was a little more strict, you know. There was a lot of fighting and stuff like that, but staff would intervene. Um, but there was a lot of a lot of stuff behind the scenes that staff wasn't aware of. You know what I mean? Like there there were kids doing to each other, you know what I mean? Sexually and stuff like that, >> but you know, I I didn't have nothing to do with that stuff then.
>> Was it that was not at Lincoln Hall?
>> Yeah, that was at Lincoln Hall.
>> I heard a lot of stuff about Lincoln Hall when I was a kid. That's what they used to threaten us with. You're going to go to Lincoln Hall. I'm like, I better behave. I don't want to go to Lincoln Hall.
>> Lincolny Land.
>> And the reason I didn't want to go to Lincoln Hall is because of the assaults.
You know what I mean? Like and I I we heard that stuff like kids are getting, >> you know, ar whatever. Certain things we can't say on YouTube, but you know, >> it was happening. So now you're there four or five years and not in Lincoln Hall but just the whole your whole little >> the whole the whole time was about four and a half years.
>> One of the worst things you've seen in there >> in Lincoln in any of them >> all together whether it's the villa, whether it's Lincoln Hall.
>> I I think the the the S assaults were probably the worst thing I saw there.
You know, other than that it was fist fight, you know, kids stabbing each other with pencils and stuff like that, but nothing real serious.
>> So but you're young. Are you a big kid at 11?
>> Oh, yeah. So at at they would they would separate kids by age like you know 10 to to 12 13 and then 13 to 16 or 17 but at 11 I was already as big as the 16 year olds. So I was in I was in Cherry Cottage at Lincoln Hall which was the older kids cottage.
>> Oh so you were a big kid which kind of kept you maybe a little bit safe from the assaults the assaults.
>> Yeah. That and I was a little crazy >> and not the best looking dude either. So I'm joking with you. I'm messing around, bro.
>> Yeah, I had gotten some pretty serious beatings even as a young kid. So, you know, to be in a fight wasn't really a big thing for me. You know what I mean?
I wasn't afraid to get punched in the face or or punch somebody else. You know, >> you got to take some to give some, right?
>> That's right.
>> So, eventually you end up working your way through this thing and you're you're going to go home now, right? Mom hasn't seen you in four or five years.
>> Yeah. Still didn't want me. She was, you know, still with her husband at that time. And uh my father said that he was going to give it a shot and he was going to let me come stay with him in Rochester.
>> Yeah.
So, I went to St. Joseph's Villa and uh I uh would you know go on the weekends I would go home to my dad and uh I lived in this group home out in Williamson and then I went then they moved me to Nester Street off of Hudson Avenue. I lived in a group home there >> and uh they started letting me go to public high school. I was going to East Ridge High School.
>> Oh, you're going to Eastidge? Yeah, that was all right school back then.
>> Yeah.
>> You had to go to school there at the same time as my brother, man. Brother was a My brother's a quarterback there.
Charles Marx. Chucky.
>> Yeah, >> he committed suicide.
>> Yeah, that's your brother.
>> Yeah. And I think I might know who she is now, too.
>> Holy man.
>> Yeah. Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Ch Chucky was my brother.
>> He used to go out with Terara Shales.
>> I I found him when he shot himself.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. He one of my best friends, Keith Shales.
>> Yeah.
>> His little sister was going out with Chucky.
>> So you Yeah.
>> Yeah. I I know him. I know him, man. I remember when all that happened. Holy, >> that's crazy.
>> I never put it together. The last name.
>> There it is. Right. Um he's got a son and everything now. And well, he had a son back then.
>> Yeah.
>> But anyway. Yeah. That's crazy. But now you got me like now I'm like I got to get my myself together. But so you go to East Ridge, you're living you're going to public school, but you're still in the villa.
>> I'm still in the villa for a little while. Actually, my girlfriend at the time, who's my wife now, would come to the the group home and pick me up and take me to school. You know what I mean?
So, did she go to East Ridge, too?
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, okay. Crazy, huh? Crazy crazy crazy life. It's small world like you said earlier.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you get So, you and her hookup. Do you find like, hey, this is my security with your >> with with your wife? Like, is this the only thing that you got? This is And you guys been together for what, 40 years now?
>> Almost.
>> I mean, >> since 1988.
>> And we'll get into us meeting and all that, but she was your girl back then.
And then you go to state, I think, state prison, federal prison, and she sticks by. So she's been with you since you were going through all the things that you I mean you went through some I didn't even wouldn't even thought you went through.
>> Yeah.
>> So now you're out of you're out of East I mean you're out of the villa. You're going to Eastridge. What are you doing with your life? Are you like man I'm out of here. I want to have a good life. I want to see my mom. I mean what's going through your mind?
>> So uh when uh when I get out of the villa and I'm living with my father in this apartment complex uh it only lasted about six months and uh my dad couldn't hack it. He didn't he didn't want nothing to do with me. So after about six months, I go home one day and the doors are locked. The I can't get in. My key won't work.
>> Yeah.
>> So I'm like, "What the hell?" You know, and I had to live in my truck. So my wife's father finds out that I'm living in my truck on the side of the road and he's like, "Oh, hell no. Tell him to come stay here." And they had like this uh breezeway on their house. And he said I could stay there, but I wasn't allowed to sleep in the house, obviously. So he let me stay on the porch. So I ended up staying with them for a while, but I didn't like not having nothing. So, I started uh you know um can I say it?
>> Yeah.
>> I started selling drugs.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh ended up getting my own apartment uh in the corner of East Ran Culver above a coin shop and I was selling weed at the time.
>> So, you're just selling weed back then.
>> Making a little bit of money.
>> Yeah.
>> Are you dibbling and dabbling in any type of like robberies, crime? That that comes maybe later.
>> Yeah. Later. At that point, the only crime I was doing was I was dealing with boosters. You know what I mean? They would bring me stuff. You know the deal.
They would bring me stuff and I would buy it. And uh but selling weed is what got me into harder drugs.
>> So you're selling weed, you're making a couple dollars. You probably think you're that dude, right? You're at East Ridge like, "Yo, I'm that dude. I got that weed." Right. Yeah.
>> You probably didn't know this about I don't know, maybe you knew this about Chucky, but his dad who's my father.
>> Yeah.
>> Was probably when you were selling weed back then, he was probably the biggest weed dealer in Rochester.
>> Yeah.
>> We were getting they were bring hundreds and hundreds of pounds to our house.
>> I think my guy probably was dealing with your dad.
Johnny >> Danny >> Mexico I don't know maybe there's some guys I mean it's been 40 years I don't Johnny Standardo all of those guys from Rochester we'll talk >> I'll say their names after yeah we'll talk later um so anyway I mean you're dibbling and dabbling in the weed but you escalate right as it always does >> you escalate to what are you selling powder you >> No I didn't even start doing any of that so I'm driving a 64 Chevy at the time >> and uh this kid he's dead now so I can say his name is Jamie he's uh he's at my house one night on a Friday night and uh he's like, "Hey man, you want to you want to go to the club?" I'm like, "Yeah, let's take my car." So, we get in my my 64 Chevy and we're driving down Goodman Street and we're on our way to heaven. This nightclub back there.
>> I remember heaven.
>> Yeah.
>> You could put the Velcro on and jump on the wall and get stuck to the wall. Do you remember that?
>> Yeah. So, he says, "Uh, he says, "Oh man, pull over right here. Let's let's do a bump before we go to the club." I'm like, "What's a bump?" He's like, "Come on, I'll show you. I'll show you." So, I park the car and uh we go inside this house and I'm like looking around and it's shady, it's dark, it's all filled with smoke, it smells in there, you know, and uh he gives the guy $20 and he gets two dimes from him and he and he cooks them up is all freebase back then.
There was no hard yet. And uh he cooks him up and and I and he puts it in this thing and he's got this big glass ball and I see the smoke going through and he smokes it and then he's just standing there and I'm like, "What the hell's the matter with him?" So, I'm like, "All right, give it to me." And I hit it.
Nothing happens. I'm like, "Man, give him my $10 back." He's like, "No, no, no. Do another one." Man, it was the worst decision of my life. I wish I had never done that. You know what I mean?
So, I did that second one and instantly I felt like Superman. I thought, you know, I felt like I was invincible. Like nothing could happen to me. You know what I mean? And that very when I did that very that that second one, I remember in my mind going, "You're in trouble, man. You're in big trouble."
And I end up spending $800 that very first night.
You're you're I mean back then it was freebase.
>> Yeah, it was all freebase.
>> And you're like, "Yo, I like this."
>> Yeah.
>> And you guys are stuck there in this dirty apartment.
>> Yeah.
>> Whose apartment was it? I mean, you don't I don't remember.
>> There's a dude named Levi.
>> White dude, black dude.
>> Black dude named Levi.
>> And you're you're in the hood, though.
Like, this is the hood back then.
>> Yeah, we're in the hood. Yeah.
>> Not nervous at all.
>> No.
>> Not I mean, $800 you're you're spending money. They could have robbed you. They could have killed you. Back then was dangerous, bro.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> I mean, this is a dangerous city we live in, but it's been dangerous forever.
>> Yeah. So now you're off to the races.
>> Yeah, off to the races.
>> She's still your girlfriend at that time.
>> She's my girl at the time, but she doesn't know nothing about what I'm doing. She has no idea.
>> That's where I'm going. I know she don't know because if she knows back then, she's probably like, >> I'm cool on this, right?
>> Was it frowned upon back then for people to be basing?
>> Hide it, man. You You didn't want anybody to know what you were doing with that. So, you know, I was very very very secretive about it.
>> Go ahead. I'm sorry.
>> No, go ahead. I'm sorry. So, I I I would just, you know, I would tell people, "Oh, you know, I'm getting some powder or I'm doing this or I'm doing that." I would never admit to anybody that I was a free free base head or whatever you want to say. I don't really like that word, but >> yeah.
>> So now that night, you do you do you go home and and get yourself and like, "Oh my god, I just spent 800 bucks. I lost all my I'm making money now. My money's because $800 back then is a lot of money."
>> Yeah.
>> And now it's gone.
>> Yeah.
>> So, what are you thinking now that your money is gone? You think like, "I better never do that again." Or you thinking like, "I need to go back to Levi's house." Yeah, exactly what I did. I I started going to Levi's house on the regular to the point where I ended up losing my apartment. I sold my 64 Chevy.
I got rid of all and uh at the time I had a friend named Craig and um he was also on the stuff and uh he wanted to get off it and he couldn't get off it and he ended up eating a shotgun too. He killed himself. So uh I'm like, man, I don't want to end up like that. So I said, man, you know, what am I going to do? So I joined the army. You know what I mean? I'm going to get out of town.
I'm going to clean myself up and uh I would be good. So, I join the army. I go away and and I'm good while I'm gone.
But when I came back home, every once in a while, I would do it and do it. But I wasn't doing it like I was before I went in. But >> So, you go to the army. What's your girl thinking when you go to the army? Does she want you to go? Does she support this? Does she find out anything about the drug use at this time?
>> She still didn't know about the drugs, but she was supportive of the army thing, you know what I mean? But her she had her parents were much older. So um when uh when it when it came time to make a decision whether to do active duty or not um we really couldn't because she needed to be by her parents.
So we ended up staying home staying home and I did the reserves for eight years.
>> I didn't know all that stuff about you, man. So now you're back home and you're dibbling and you're dabbling here and there.
>> When does your wife find out? I mean she's your girlfriend at the time.
Eventually you guys get married, right?
Yeah, we get married in 93 and uh I think she found out right about the time we got married.
>> Yeah. So, she finds out. What's it like the first time when she finds out that you're involved in this stuff that you're trying to hide because it's frowned upon people like, "Hey, I don't want to, you know, be known as a you know what you said earlier."
>> Um what does she do? Does she flip out?
>> No, because she didn't really know. So, I I did a horrible thing and I got her to try it and uh so for a little while we were doing it together. We both we're holding our jobs down. We were, you know, just doing it here and there, you know, hundred bucks or whatever. No big deal. So, after a few months of that, one night we're out and we're we're doing it. And uh back then you could go to Wegman's and buy a candy bar and write a check for $40 over.
>> So, we went in there, we bought pack of cigarettes, whatever it was, and she writes a check for $40 over.
>> Well, because we're partying, she forgot to move the money from one account to the other to cover it. So, like two days later, we're driving to work. She's taking me to work and she gets a letter.
So, she's opening the letter while we're driving and she's like, "Man, they charge me $40 for that check and the bank charger." She goes, "Man, I'm never doing that again." I was like, "Yeah, right." Like, it's that easy to quit.
And she never touched it again for 25 years, man.
>> Thank God.
>> But she was on me to get off of it and I I couldn't at the time. So, but shortly after that, we moved to Buffalo for a while. I tried that and I stayed clean from it for, you know, a year here, a year there, but it always had a hold on me, you know what I mean? always had that grip and put the hooks in you.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you're working your job. Are you back involved? When do you get back involved in crime?
>> In probably about 1998.
>> 98. I'm trying to think back when I met you. So, in 1998, you're working your job, still getting high here and there, or is it progressed to every day again?
>> No, just here and there.
>> Okay.
>> And then, uh, you know, it was here and there and then like I think it was 99 or 2000.
Yeah. Um, I had this bright idea that uh I was going to be able to supply my my my habit or I was going to get some help by going to prison and I started robbing banks.
What's that? 99. So in 99 I started robbing banks and uh eventually I got caught for that. But also while I was uh now this is when we met about 99 2000 I think it was. And uh while I was out on uh pre-trial for that one. I ended up doing uh You remember Johnny Blades?
>> Of course.
>> So, me and Johnny Blades ended up doing this a robbery out at the Aloha Motel.
>> Mhm.
>> And uh >> can Daga?
>> No. On Monroe Avenue. Monroe.
>> Monroe Avenue in Pittsburgh there. And uh I'm not going to get into the whole story, but Johnny and I do we do this robbery and um I'm sitting at your house at 93 Saratoga and uh Bod's on the on the crapper and he's got the window open and all of a sudden the cop pokes his head in the window and he's like, "Hey, Woody, what's going on?" And Woody's like, "What the heck?" And uh he says, "Man, if and we know Chris Moffett's in there. If you guys don't send him out, nothing's happening here. We're going to stay surrounded around this house all night long." And I remember I called you on the phone and I was like, "Hey man, you know, these guys are out here." And you were like, "Man, just go ahead, go out there. I'll come bail you out." And I didn't know how serious it was at the time. So I ended up I had a Anyway, we put everything away because we weren't sure if they were going to come in or not.
>> Listen, there's a statute of limitations. We're good. You can say whatever you want. They can't arrest you.
>> Yeah. So, I had a shotgun and stuff and we broke everything down and separated separated the bullets from the shotgun and you know uh Wodi and I think uh I think it was uh Junior or somebody was there and they put all their up and so I went outside the house they arrested me and we left and uh when I got to jail I found out my bail was like some crazy amount. So, you know, you you had offered to come get me but it was going to be way too much trouble. So, >> we're going to back it up a little bit, right? Do you remember when we met?
>> Oh, yeah.
So, you were with a dude that they were in a truck like a week earlier.
>> Yeah.
>> And he tried to drive away. He grabbed my necklace off my neck and drove and popped my necklace.
>> Um, and then you come back with So, that was Prince and Wizard.
>> Yeah.
>> Wizard grabbed my necklace. I think Prince was driving and Wizard grabbed my necklace and they started to drive away and and they got my necklace. They snatched my necklace. They popped it and drove away. And Prince comes back, you know, a week later with you.
>> Yeah. And I don't know nothing about this. He's in the passenger seat of my truck and we're at Burger King and I think we had a chick with us or something and uh they went over to your house.
>> No, I'm joking.
>> The the girl got out of the truck and went over to the house and I think when she got to the house, you guys were like, "Hey, is that Prince in that truck?"
>> Yeah.
>> And next thing I know, I got two cars surrounding me in the parking lot and you walked up to my window. Can I say >> Yeah.
>> And you had that thing in your hand and you were like, "Hey, man. Who are you?
What are you?" And I was just like, "What's going on, man?" Like you were like, "Oh, I can see you don't have nothing to do with this. We got beef with this guy. And uh basically after that moment, you were like, you know, you're you're all right, man. I like you. You can come to the house anytime you want.
>> Did I get didn't I did I pull Prince out of the truck?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Wasn't I did I hit him?
>> Uh yeah, >> I remember I remember grabbing him. I got him out of the truck.
>> Yeah, you guys got him out of the truck >> and he was screaming and he was trying he was running. He was He was running to get away >> like he always did.
>> Yeah. Crazy. Yeah, that dude, man. I seen that dude, man, when I got out of prison like I probably seen him about a year and a half, maybe two years ago on Lyall. I think he's doing good now, right?
>> He is doing good now. Yeah.
>> But he was still back. I mean, he was that black dude with the kind of when I knew him, he had a Jerry curl and >> he was, you know, he was peeing all them white chicks out there on LA and >> Oh, yeah.
>> And he wouldn't fight a man, but he definitely put his hands on them.
>> Do you remember that?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Yeah. He was just not the best.
>> Not the best dude. You remember Wizard?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Just a really bad dude, man. That dude was a bad dude.
>> Yeah.
>> So, yeah. So, we meet after that and I'm like, "Yeah, you're all right." Really, I'm looking at like this is a big ass white dude, man. You know what I mean?
Like, you can come over here and, you know, in my young mind, I'm probably plotting like, "Yeah, this dude could, you know, work this work the house and he could do security."
>> So, eventually you end up coming around.
>> I came up to the house and uh there was this dude in the house and we were sitting at the table, me and this dude.
I didn't even know who he was, but he had all his [ __ ] on the table and he started talking smack to you and uh you started getting loud with him and I was like, "Oh, here's my chance." So, I scooped the dude up. You remember?
>> Throw him down the stairs.
>> I threw him down the stairs and I chased him down the stairs and shoved him out the door and I came back upstairs. You were like, "Man, you can have all this that's on the table." And all a sudden he heard the window blow out of my truck and the dude had ran over to my truck and smashed the window out. You ended up giving me You got me a new window for the truck.
>> Do you remember that?
Crazy, right? Crazy life. What was that on L? Was it on Ly?
>> That was at the house on Lyle. The house that's gone now.
>> They used to be above the old bar.
>> 541 next door to the auto parts store.
And that's one of the houses I went to prison for that house. 4451 and 168 Massith. Do you remember the house on Massive?
>> I do. Yeah.
>> I remember Lyall Avenue when you did go to jail. She came around and you were trying to sell your motorcycle to get your bail money up or something.
>> Do you remember that? You had a fuel.
I'll never for ain't it crazy I got a memory like that to remember that.
>> So yeah, so you you know you end up getting rid of that dude now you're pretty much you're in there but what you know what's going on in your mind? Are you like you know I'm going to be selling drugs for this dude. I'm going to be working for this dude. Like you thinking like hey I got this life with my wife over there but I'm hanging out with these you know these white you know dealers.
>> Yeah. I mean >> well I seen you know all the guys that worked for you at the time. I seen they were all doing good. You know what I mean? I was like man I you know I I can I can get high and do good too. You know what I mean? And so I that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to work, but I had already been wrapped up in all the other things that I had done that they were just catching up with me. You know what I mean?
>> So all these things eventually catch up to you. Do you ever get out on bail on that?
>> Um if you remember, >> I think I got out after after I took the plea bargain. They gave me like 60 days before I got sentenced. And that's when I came to the house on Monroe Avenue, but everybody was telling on you at the time. And they had you convinced that I was telling on you, but I didn't know nothing. You know what I mean? And uh Jan and Jr. came out and they were like, "Oh, Chad said you can't come in." This and that. I'm like, "What?" And I had her with me. I was on the motorcycle.
You remember that White House on Monro Avenue?
>> Yeah, of course.
>> I don't even know if you were in there or not, but so I was just like, "Whatever." And I left.
>> Wy lights the Muslim kid on fire over there.
>> Oh, is that where that happened?
>> Yeah. Then they use that in my detention hearing to keep me in jail. Wy died too.
He overdosed on >> Fetty. So I heard that.
>> Lost his life.
>> D's dead too, right?
>> D got Yeah. D got killed.
>> Yeah.
>> You remember E? That was my boy. Boy Evan. You don't remember Evan? M not so much.
>> So D gets killed. Evan gets killed.
>> D is the Paul bearer at his funeral.
Then D gets killed a week later.
>> Is that crazy? I'm going to show you a picture of Evan when we're done and you're you'll remember him. That was like my best best friend back then. Me, him, and DJ.
>> So yeah. I mean, look, everyone got everyone dies. I go to prison pretty much for a life sentence.
>> At the end of the day, it all it's all for nothing.
>> And that's what people don't realize when they're caught up in the streets.
You don't realize that, hey, you're building you really, you're just you're building up for a life sentence. I was building up for a life sentence. Thought I was that dude, you know what I mean? I I was the man. Had the Eclipse back then with the TVs when they first came out.
I'm riding around with all kinds of money talking of cash all the time >> and it and it all meant nothing, man. It was all I mean, I spent 20 years of my life in prison for >> for really petty ass money. I made more money now than I ever made when I was, you know, selling drugs.
>> So, you don't come around no more over there at the house, right? Do we see each? because I don't remember this. Do we see each other again or no? Before I get knocked?
>> No. No. The next time I saw you or the next time I spoke to you was when you first came home from the feds.
>> Yeah.
>> I I had heard that you had beat your sentence and come home and you we contacted each other on messenger or whatever. Yeah.
>> So, you go to prison now. Now, you're on your way to New York State. You take the cop out. You get out for a little bit of time. How much time do you end up getting in New York State prison?
>> Uh, they gave me five flat plus five postrelease. So, um, in December of 2002, I went in, got sentenced. So, that probably would have been like September, October was the last time that I went to the house over there on Monro Avenue.
And then in December, uh, I had to turn myself in for sentencing. And I mean, it was so bad. I I was getting high in the bathroom at the courthouse and the baiff came in. He was like, "Come on, you got to go. You got to go." And I'm flushing down the toilet. and uh I went into the courtroom and they sentenced me and off I went.
>> What was New York State prison like for you?
>> Uh New York State was it was pretty easy at first. Uh I didn't go to Elmyra. I got an R number 03r0569.
I went to Olter and uh that's a medium.
So it's it's different than going to Elmyra when you go to the big cell block. So I didn't have any exposure to to the cells in in the state prison yet.
But I went to Olter. And then from Olster, I went to a place called Gwanda outside of Buffalo. I wasn't there for 6 months. And uh I was already in the mix, you know what I mean? I got I got a shot, a class three shot for uh extortion, drug possession, uh unauthorized organization, gang activity, and my very first ticket in state prison, they gave me three and a half years in the shoe. So I remember I was like, "Three and a half years in the shoe? What are you crazy? You're joking, right?" Right. And they were like, "Not at all." And I remember when you went to the to the hearing from the shoe, they they put this leash around you and they had you on a leash and they walked you to the hearing and the ladies yanking the leash like I'm a dog dragging me back to the cell and put me in the cell and I'm like, man, >> they end up sending me to a thing called an S block. I went to the Collins S block and I spent >> I want to I want to back you up for a second though. Extortion, gang activity.
What happens? Because I was in Guanda, too. This is crazy, but go ahead. I was in Guanda in 96 when I was 17 years old.
I was on a South 3.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh uh they didn't really have like a Aryan thing or whatever. They just they they had different crews, you know, back then. And um I was, you know, hanging around with all the white guys. And because I'm because of the tattoos I have and and who I hang around with, they think that I'm trying to start this Aryan Brotherhood, you know what I mean?
But really, I wasn't. I was just hanging around with other white dudes, you know?
>> Yeah. And um I remember we were sitting around in a circle out on the big yard one day and everyone's throwing up and I'm like, "Why is everybody throwing up?" And they're like, "Oh, there on the yard." And I'm like, "Oh, really? Let me get some." They're like, "No, nobody would give me my It was my first bag, you know." Yeah. Nobody would give it to me. They're like, "You got to go get it yourself." So, there was this Latin King on my on my unit I was pretty tight with. His name was Playboy.
>> So, I went over to seeing Playboy. And I was like, "Yo, what the And he's like, "Oh, you want a jail bag or a street bag?" I'm like, "I don't know." He's like, "Well, you can get a you know, this for this or this for that." I'm like, "Well, give me the street bag." So give him $50. I had his street to street the money. But yeah, he gives me the bag. I go back over and I sniff it and now I'm puking with the guys and you know.
>> But anyway, that led me up to the point where now Playboy's giving me giving me and I'm selling it to other people on my unit. Well, there was this uh Nieta Neta kid. Uh Panacei was his name, I think.
But anyway, so he he buy he end up buys like $500 worth of off me and he doesn't want to pay for it. So I walk him over to the pay phone and I'm like, "Hey, call your people and get that money sent street to street or there's going to be a problem." So he makes the phone call.
I hear the lady say she's going to send the money. I go in the bathroom. I'm smoking a cigarette and and then all of a sudden the we call them the turtles back then. They all they come all geared up. They raid the bathroom, drag me out of there. They put me in the elevator.
They're, you know, giving me shots. Take me to the shoe and they sat and then they went to my locker and they found a half a gram of dope in my locker. So that was the drug possession. The extortion was they said that I was extorting other gang members into sending me money because the the kid signed in under my name and said that I, you know, nothing about drugs, just that I was extorting him for money, but really he owed money. So, uh, that's what all the tickets were for.
>> So, what's it like when they say, "Hey, you're going to be in the hole. You're going to be in the box." Back, you know, in the state they called the box. You're going to the box for three and a half years. What's going through your mind now? You've been through all this [ __ ] as a kid at 11 years old. Now you're going back into a self for a long time.
>> What's going through your mind?
>> I think all that stuff as a kid prep prepared me to be to be able to handle that later because I had I I saw a lot of guys in the shoe older that that couldn't, you know, three, four weeks in the shoe and they're falling apart, you know what I mean? And I was in that shoe for about a year and a half before they gave me a time cut and then they sent me to Kaki. So, my classification got upped and I and I go to a max and uh they had me on key block over there for a while.
But, no, I I did fine be I think because of my childhood, you know what I mean?
Like you said, I mean, it's sad, but it's true. It prepares you. I mean, I've been to Westfall Road. I was in detention centers as a kid, and it did it prepared me for what would later be a 40-year sentence, which is absolutely ridiculous.
>> Yeah.
>> You So, you end up in Kasaki. That's one of the most craziest prisons you could be in as a kid. Yeah. And you also end up in the S block, right?
>> Yeah.
>> So, do you go to Kasaki first and then >> No, I went to the S block first.
>> Okay.
>> They up my classification and then when I got out of the shoe, they sent me to to the cat.
>> Let's talk about the S block. What's S block like for you?
>> Slock is uh about half the size of this room.
>> It's a bunk bed and a shower and a little desk with two tables at it. And um for me, because of how I look, they wouldn't put anybody but white dudes in my cell with me. Um so every once in a while, I would have a SY if if they they had like a skin head or or another tattooed white dude, but they never put any any blacks or Spanish dudes in my cell with me. So a lot of times I was just in there by myself.
>> I mean, is it destroying you mentally and emotionally like it did when you were a kid?
>> It was pretty rough because, you know, my wife would come to visit me on Saturday night. They would have visits for from like five to eight and uh they they would bring me down there all chained and shackled in with the black box and you'd have to sit behind glass and that that was pretty rough for my wife to see. When they first brought me down there, I remember she just fell apart seeing me like that. But after a few weeks of being in there, they change your class and then they start to let you have regular contact visits >> walking you around like you're Hannibal Lectar in there.
>> Yeah, >> it's wild, ain't it?
>> It's crazy.
>> You getting any trouble in ES block? You getting any fights in there with sies?
You just you're like, I'm going to do it and >> I'm going to get out. Do you do the whole three and a half years?
>> No, I ended up doing about a year and a half.
>> You do a year and a half.
>> Yeah.
>> Now they send you to the cat.
>> Yeah.
>> Casaki, New York.
>> Yeah.
>> What's the cat like for a white dude walking into the cat?
>> The cat's pretty rough, man. You know, I got there and uh I think that's where I seen my first prison stabbing and that's where I put in my first work was when I got to the cat. So, >> first prison stabbing. What happens >> for me?
>> No. For for you to see. Oh, for me to see. Uh, it it was a different race and uh, you know, I don't know what happened, but these rat hunters got this dude and they they they jammed him up in the yard pretty good. It was the first time I ever been in a yard where they fire shots out of the tower, too. And that that was pretty wild experience.
But these two rat hunters got this guy and they stabbed him up and then they started firing bullets, you know, just not o not at us, over our heads at a big target on the other wall and everybody dropped to the ground at that point. You know, the craziest thing that I've said, I've said this in the past, like when they start firing it, it excited me for some reason to hear the gunshots like boom boom. And I'm like, your adrenaline's pumping and I'm I'm like, it's crazy to even think that.
>> Like in the feds, they first they drop their concussion grenades and you feel that go through you.
>> You feel it.
>> Yeah.
>> Watch you. You're inside. You're like, but you got to rush from that.
>> Yeah.
>> Isn't Isn't that crazy that violence >> to see that extreme violence and the gunshots and the stabbings and it excites you? you're tuned in like it just it's like something that breaks up the monotony of the day sadly. Right.
>> You almost looked forward to it and you could you always knew when it was happening even if it wasn't your guys you knew. I mean the yard is just different when someone's about to get it.
>> So this is the first stabbing that you see.
>> Yeah.
>> If you can think back to that moment, right? What did it do to you to to see that to experience that?
>> Did it bother you? Did it hurt you? Did it make you afraid of prison? Did was it just oh just another >> Well, I think it it put me on my best behavior. You know what I mean? Like, you know, whatever that dude did, you know, you definitely don't want to owe a gambling debt or you don't want to mess with no no gays or or you know, what do they call the three G's? Gambling, gays, and uh and I forget. Anyway, dope bills.
This is the big one. Not paying your dope bill.
>> Yeah. So, it affects you to thinking like, hey, I don't want to be involved in any nonsense, >> right?
>> I'm I'm going to I'm going to do the right thing here at Kasaki. Well, I don't know if I'm going to do the right thing. No, >> I'm going somewhere. I'm going somewhere. But you're thinking, I'm But in the moment, you're like, "Hey, I want to just I don't want no trouble." Right.
>> Definitely don't want trouble.
>> But that don't last long.
>> No, >> it's just for the moment.
>> Yeah.
>> You end up stabbing or you end up putting in work yourself.
>> Yeah. So, um it it comes up to my unit that we got a child molester on our unit and uh the guy who was like the head white dude at the cat, his name was Gypsy.
>> Yeah.
>> And he says, "Uh, you know, you got to handle that. you and so and so got to go handle that. And uh I'm like, "How am I going to do that?" You know what I mean?
And he's like, "Don't worry about it."
So, I'm sitting in my cell and uh all of a sudden the CEO comes by and and she's like, "Uh, I'm going to break. Uh I'll be back in 30 minutes and all all of a sudden I hear and three doors open and I open my door and I look down there and it's this other dude that's going with me." And then we see the little little blonde guy poke his head out and he's like, "Hey, what's going on?" And so I knew what time it was, you know. I got my thing and we went down there and got that dude and dragged him in in the cat. They got the the blocks are real long and there's like these little things in the middle that separate the blocks and we got him in there and we just put working on him and he was he was screaming for his life.
>> You're stabbing him.
>> Oh yeah.
>> And and and what was his violation? What he did?
>> He had raped a 2-year-old little girl and split her from her.
>> Okay. Yeah.
>> Split her open.
>> A 2-year-old just I didn't have a problem with that at all.
>> Yeah. Did it ever go through your mind that, hey, I might kill this dude?
>> Yeah, I didn't I I wanted to hurt him. I didn't want to kill him because I didn't want to, you know what I mean? I didn't want to end up, you know, going with a fiveyear sentence and doing life. But, you know, I knew I needed to to also stab him up good enough to get him off the yard.
>> Do you think ever in your mind that, you know, like these dudes are sending you on missions, like maybe they should just go do it themselves?
>> Yeah, I've definitely thought that, but I also know that, you know, at some point they had to put their work in, too. Yeah.
>> You know what I mean? in it. It was the only time I was ever told that I had to do it. So, >> and you willingly did it.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> What What's the consequences?
>> Especially with what happened to me as a kid and then finding out what kind of person this dude was, I was more than happy to take care of it.
>> What are the consequences?
>> There was no consequences.
>> You don't get caught. Dude, don't tell on you.
>> The CEO actually cracked us out and let us do our thing. And then when we were done, we just closed the gates. and somebody eventually heard him screaming down there in the little foyer way and they came and collected him and that was the last we saw him.
>> So this is what people, you know, there's a lot of scrutiny now on like New York State where they just killed that dude and they killed two dudes actually. Oh yeah.
>> Right. Right across the street from each other.
>> Um but back then that's how it worked.
The cops would, you know, they'd crack the gate, let you do what you got to do.
Um and and use you kind of right.
>> Oh yeah.
>> I mean the cop wasn't going to come out of the the booth and go do it himself, right?
>> Absolutely not.
>> But he's going to use you to do it. I remember they would they would give them uh old paint crew uniforms. So when the Chomos would come in, they would get a uniform covered in paint drops. So they were like everybody on the unit knew what that was, you know.
>> Well, you knew he wasn't the painter.
>> Yeah, we knew he wasn't the painter.
>> Unbel It's unbelievable, man. So you commit this violence and know what you went through as a kid. So it's like, hey, it's easy to commit this violence, >> but after you commit this violence, right, this is your first time putting in work.
>> What does it feel like for you to do that? Are you excited? Are you happy? Is there a point where you're like that, man? I could be messing up my whole life, man.
>> Later on. Yeah. But after that one, I I kind of I kind of almost volunteered for a couple more.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, like like it made me feel better, you know, about what had happened to me when I was a kid and I I wanted to I wanted to get retribution on those people, you know what I mean?
>> Yeah.
>> But later on it did change for me. Yeah.
>> Is there ever a time where you felt bad for some of the things that you you know did like the violence that you committed?
>> Yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes I I you know, >> you can be straight up. It doesn't have to all be all the time.
>> Oh, I know.
>> I've done things I don't regret.
>> Yeah. Uh, you know, I don't know if I regret doing what I did to that dude, but sometimes I I have I'll have a bad dream and I'll hear that dude screaming.
He was calling for his mother while it was happening and and I hear that in my dream. You know what I mean? So, it does come back to me sometimes.
>> It affects you.
>> Yeah. like it really wasn't my place to do that to anybody, but I I I was so angry back then and and and so messed up inside because of my drug use and just being a failure at life, not making the right choices that it's easy to take that out on somebody else. You know what I mean?
>> Well, you know, that's where I'm going with it. Like, you know, prison politics and, you know, prison I call it prison nonsense, right?
>> Prison nonsense dictates and it says, "Hey, look, you got to go do something to this dude."
>> Yeah.
>> Because he did this. So, it is your job.
You You got to go do this. But in normal society, that's not really how it works.
Not that I'm saying, "Hey, you know, these dudes should be able to, you know, live or breathe." But I'm just like, you know, like these these are horrible people, man. I got kids. You know what I mean?
>> Yeah.
>> And and it's just the prison thing where some dude will be like, "Yo, go put that work in." And I'm going to give you an example that happened in the feds. This kid went in, and I did a video about this, a documentary. He went in like seven or eight years, right? And he's a I think he was a skin. And they're like, "Yo, bro, you got to do, you know, go put this work in." The Jewish dude shows up. He's not a SO or nothing. He's just Jewish, bro.
>> Right.
>> And he kills him, dude. Beats him in the head with a rock and just I got the pictures and everything.
>> I had a former warden send me all that stuff. And I did a documentary on it, but he threw his whole life away.
>> The dude, one of the dudes that was part of like the shot caller group to send him, he ends up, you know, telling him like, >> "What's that dude that put that word in?"
>> I got to find a video and I'll send it to you. Um, I think he was out of Arizona.
>> I met a dude uh in in Oklahoma City that >> got another 35 years.
>> His story sounds similar to that.
>> Might be might be the same dude.
>> Yeah.
>> Got 35 more years.
>> Did his dad end up being Jewish or something >> while he was Did he go to Lewisburg?
>> I don't remember.
>> All right.
>> I did a documentary on him. It's on the channel though.
>> So, you know, like the the whole prison politics thing. Hey man, go out there.
You could have you could have ended up with a life sentence.
>> Oh, very easily.
>> And then you would have been sitting in there thinking replaying in your mind. I think you'd have been 11 years old again, scratching the window, looking out there crying like, "My life's over."
>> Yeah.
>> This is what This is This is what it is.
You know, dudes send dudes on missions that are never getting out of prison and those dudes are out right now.
>> Yeah.
>> Sent you on a mission and those dudes are out. It could be something small.
>> Yeah.
>> And we can justify and say, "Oh, well, dude was a so you know, but at the end of the day, you're the one sitting in the cell for the rest of your life because someone sent you on a mission."
>> So, you put in work at Kasaki. You end up going home from the cat or you go somewhere else?
>> No. From from the cat, I went to uh uh Napanak Eastern.
>> Yeah.
>> And from Eastern I went to Watertown and then I went home.
>> Did you like Eastern?
>> Eastern was beautiful. It was a It was a what do you call it? An honor jail or whatever. They had movie theaters and you know, you go to the yard, they had bake sales on the yard. It It was crazy.
It was the strangest prison I've ever been to.
>> Eastern's always been known for, you know, being being all right. Right. Was there some serious people there though?
Some high >> profile? There was there were some mobsters there. There was there was actually a couple cops there that you know, >> but like I said, it was an honor jail so I I I saw little to no violence there.
>> Yeah. David Burkowitz wasn't there in >> No, no, no.
>> The dude that killed John Lennon.
>> No.
>> Was Arthur Shaw cross there when you were there?
>> No. Shross was at Sullivan.
>> Oh, he was in Sullivan. That's right.
>> I remember when he got in a fight in Comtock and little dude Dave hit him, his little buddy he hung out with and split his eye open. He hit the hit the gate and split his eye open. Really?
>> Yeah. For people that don't know, SH Cross was a >> a mountain >> a serial killer and big dude and just straight straight killer, man.
>> They said if that dude grabbed you, you were not getting out of his grip.
>> Is that crazy?
>> Yeah.
>> One of them stronghold.
>> He was running around when you were on the avenue.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Bad dude. So, you end up going there, then you go to Watertown, you come home.
>> Yeah.
>> What's going on in your mind when you're getting out? You're going home. You're married. Are you like, I'm going to get my life together this time?
>> Yeah. it's over. I got to do the right thing.
>> I ended up doing four years, three months, and 10 days. And uh I got out on April 1st, 2007.
And uh man, I was so happy. It was weird. Uh my wife was there to pick me up. And I remember we went to a store and I freaked out in the store. I had to go sit in the car. It was just so wild for me to be out, you know, and there's all these people walking around. I had a real hard time adapting back again. But uh we got home and the next day we were at Sprint out in Henrietta getting a phone and this dude I know from this infamous motorcycle club walks in and he sees me and he's my old old crimey from when I was a kid, you know, and he's like, "Oh, hey man, you know, you got your life together. I got all this stuff going on. Come see me. Come see me." And I'm like, "Listen, man. I'm on parole trying to do the right thing. I don't want nothing to do with it."
>> Yeah.
>> So, I just brushed him off, you know.
>> Six or eight months later, you know, I'm doing good. But I think I got everything under control. I'm going to be all right. I can go hang around with these guys. And uh I ended up calling this dude up and hanging out with him. But unfortunately for me in 2005, while I was inside, he ended up making a bad deal with the feds and they flipped him.
And uh so while he was doing his dirt for them, for the feds, he was setting me up. And uh we had did some things and uh and the feds got us.
>> So that thing's over with. It's been a statute of limitations again. But what type of things were you doing? People are like, "Well, he's not telling us."
>> So, uh, I I, uh, I was doing two things at the time. I, I had a big marijuana growhouse in Rando. Had over 500 plants in it.
>> And, uh, we were doing a a scrap metal business. I had a grapple truck and, uh, we would go down in the subway at nighttime underneath the city. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> And we were ripping out all the rails and loading them onto these trucks and driving them to the scrapyard and getting paid. And uh we used that that grapple truck to do a lot of things. But one of the things we did was we went out to Buffalo to this rail yard and we were unloading one ton cubes out of rail cars that were sitting there waiting to go to Pennsylvania. So the feds called that theft from interstate commerce. and uh we were loading them into the truck and taking them to the scrapard, but the guy at the scrapyard ended up getting nabbed and turned us in. But I didn't even know that the guy that was working with me was already working for the feds. So it was like we were double whammy. And uh I pulled out of the railard in this big old scrap truck and then the next thing I know there's all kinds of state police blocking the roads and they got machine guns pointed at us. And >> I mean how much money were you getting?
Was this big money stuff?
>> About 12,000 a load. And we were doing three, four loads a night.
>> What were you doing with all this money?
>> Partying. Mirage Palace. We were all, you know, doing crank and, you know, I was back up to my old tricks, too. I was, you know, back smoking again and partying all the time. Just blowing money like it didn't mean nothing.
>> And what's your wife doing at this time?
Is she like, "You got to get your life together. What are you doing?"
>> She actually, the night that we got popped, it was her birthday and she begged me not to go. Was crying, begging me. She said, "I got a bad feeling.
Please don't go." And I'm like, "I know.
I need the money. I want to get you something nice for your birthday. I'm going. I'm going." And and I didn't listen. And I got in that truck and I went and ended up doing a bunch of time.
>> It's crazy that you get a federal sentence for something like that, right?
>> Yeah.
>> How much time do you get in the feds?
>> 78 months. My My guideline was 63 to 78.
Uh but Judge Saragusa didn't like me very much, so he gave me the full 78.
>> Not surprising, right?
>> Not at all. The goose.
>> The goose.
>> They called him the goose. So he didn't play no games. He would definitely put your lights out.
>> Yes, he will.
>> Had no problem giving out life sentences.
>> He's no joke.
>> In fact, he was the prosecutor for Arthur Shaw Cross.
>> Yeah, he was.
>> He's the district attorney for Arthur Shaw Cross.
>> Yeah.
>> So, you get 78 months. You think, "Hey, man. I'm going to go to a nice place.
I'm going to the feds. It's nothing like the state." What do What do you think?
>> Club Fed, man. I'm thinking I'm going to a camp somewhere. Little do I know that on my federal jacket, I got this thing called an STG, a security threat group.
So, I can't go to a camp even though I have I only had like 11 points, but I had to go to a medium.
>> Yeah.
>> So, um I went to Youngsttown, Ohio first, which I hated, but then I ended up going to Cumberland, Maryland. I ended up going to Cumberland, Maryland.
>> But, uh >> let me stop you. What's I mean, I was in Youngstown, right?
>> Probably one of the wildest prisons I ever been in. You could really get hurt there. Staff members were like dudes on the street.
>> Yeah. They're they're behind a mirrored bubble. They don't want nothing to do with what's going on out there in that pod.
>> Dude, when I was there, like dudes were banging the chicks that worked there. It was like I was there when it first started. Yeah.
>> It was like vicious. What year were you there? You remember?
>> Uh 2012, 11, 12.
>> So So you were in CCA, Youngstown, Ohio.
>> Oh yeah.
>> Unprofessional.
>> Rice and beans >> every day. As much rice as you could eat.
>> I think it was like 17 meals a week they gave us rice and beans.
>> It's It's crazy. Yeah, >> I used to like the rice and beans, man, because I could get filled up and buy me a bottle of hot sauce for 90 cents or whatever, and I was tearing this [ __ ] up. I ain't gonna lie to you.
>> So, you're in Youngstown for a short period of time. You end up going to Cumberland.
>> Yeah.
>> What happens in Cumberland?
>> So, I get to Cumberland and uh you know, first thing they want to know is where's your paperwork? You know what I mean?
Because they think they're in this medium and they think that they're running it like a penitentiary, but it was really a joke. You know what I mean?
>> Yeah. Anyway, when I first get there, I remember, you know, uh, all these white guys were trying to pretend like they were something and this and that. It was really just a bunch of joke joke dudes, you know.
>> So, when when you say it's a joke, like these dudes are they're pretending to do prison. These these are dudes that are actually pretending that they got their heads tattooed and all this crazy stuff and they're there for >> crimes, you know what I mean?
So I I I I hooked up with a guy named Nick from Tennessee and he was my boy and we sold together and all this and that and uh we used to party together and we back then they give us these clear radios and we keep our inside the radio. Anyway, that comes back later.
But um everybody in the in the in the in the medium is telling on everybody to stay in the medium or to get to a camp.
So one day I get called up to the lieutenant's office for SIS and they're like uh you know we need you to pick a cup. And I knew there, you know, so I gave them the urine. It was dirty. And they're like, "Oh, are you going to tell us where you got the from?" Yeah.
>> And I was like, "Absolutely not." You know what I mean? So they sent me to the shoe and they're like, "If you don't tell us where that came from, you're going to the pen." I'm like, "You can't send me to the pen. I only got 11 points." And they're like, "Have you ever heard of a management variable?"
I'm like, "What the heck is that?" And they're like, "Well, that's what's going to send you to the pen." And I thought they were joking. You know what I mean?
I was like, "Whatever. Do what you got to do."
So one day they they pulled me out of the cell to pack me up and uh he's got my paperwork sitting there and I'm like where am I going? He goes you're going to USP McCraary. I'm like what? And uh at the time you know from the shoe we go out into these like wreck pens. They were like dog kennels you know what I mean? And uh I'm in the kennel and we're talking to these uh senos and they they had all done penitentiary time and they're like oh you're going to mccra man. I'm like oh no. So I knew it was bad. So, I pack up. I'm on the I'm on the Con Air for the first time. I'm like, "Holy." And we, you know, we got on the at Harrisburg and we fly out to Oklahoma City. We went to Atlanta first, then to Oklahoma City. When I get to Oklahoma City, I meet this this skin head dude and he's ABT. And uh he's like, "Where are you going?" I said, "Creary." He goes, "Oh, me too, man.
We'll we'll sit together on the plane and whatever." So, uh you know, I'm kicking it with this dude. I can't even remember his name, but you know, he never once said anything about not being able to go to that yard. You know what I and he took it like a man. So, I'm on the plane with him. We're shooting the [ __ ] you know. We get we get to McCra and when I get there, I I knew it was serious. You know what I mean? They strip you naked, take pictures of all your tattoos, interview you, can you be on this yard? Do you have any gang affiliations? This and that.
>> And uh you know, some people went to the wayside. They had to go, you know, check in into protective custody. And everybody else was over here. So, they were like, "All right, everybody, grab your your stuff and head down that hallway." And so we're all walking down the hallway, the door opens, the sunlight comes in, and there's the yard and we walk and everybody's on the fence watching all the new guys come in, you know, and we step out onto onto this walkway, which is actually, you know, there's a concrete walkway and then there's a fence and everybody's in the yard, but there are some people on the walkway. And as we step out onto the walkway, three guys jump on this dude that I have been riding with all day and they butchered they killed him. They butchered him right next to me. You know, within less than a minute of being in the penitentiary, I see my first person get killed right in front of me.
And uh the concussion grenades are going off, the the the sirens going off, but I don't know. I've never been to the penitentiary. You got to get You're supposed to get down on the ground, but I didn't know it. And all of a sudden, I just get clipped. The CO came running full speed and just like an NFL tackler, you know, I mean, just labeled me onto the ground. And uh all the guys in the New York and Boston car on the other side of the fence laughing and they already knew my name and everything. I don't you know.
>> Yeah.
>> They're like, "Oh man, you gotta get on the ground, you."
>> I'm like, "Oh my god." So they're all out on the yard. So I walk over to my unit and uh I walk into the unit and these Spanish guys come over to me. They're like, "Yo, you you and Nortananiel, you and Nort." I'm like, "What? What are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about." And I'm I'm trying to figure out what cell I'm supposed to go to. And uh the co tells me, "Yeah, you're in that cell right over there."
And I walk over to the cell and there's a black dude inside the cell. And I'm like, "No, this ain't right. I'm not falling for that." You know what I mean?
So I go find a white dude. And I'm like, "Hey, man. They're trying to put me in that cell." He goes, "Oh, don't go in there, man. You crazy. You You go in there. You You ain't going to be able to come back out on this yard." So when they come back in off the yard, I'm sitting at the table and they're like, "Uh they're like, "What happened?" I said, "They're trying to put me in this cell." He's like, "No, man. You're going to this cell with this guy." And I'm like, "What do you mean? You're telling me where I'm going?" He's like, "Oh, yeah. We do our own cell assignments here." I I mean, I couldn't even believe it. They actually ran the yard. They So, they go to the cop and they're like, "Hey, man. What are you trying to do?
Get this dude jammed up?" And he's like, "Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know." He's like, "No, put him in this cell." So, I I go into the cell and uh they come over and they got this big bag of stuff. It's like $200 worth of crap in there. And they're like, "Here's a bag if you're not good." There was three of them. They had me in the cell and I'm like on point. You know what I mean? I don't know what's going to happen. And they're like, "If your paperwork's no good, don't take this bag." And I'm like, "I'm all right." And they're like, "Well, listen. This is all we ask. If you can afford to put it back, we ask you to put it back. If you don't have it, it's yours. Don't worry about it." So, I was like, "All right." I took the stuff and eventually my paperwork came and I was fine and all that. But it was it was I mean, it was scary, you know, my first time walking into a penitentiary, especially seeing this guy get killed right next to me.
>> And I mean, you're a big white dude. How tall are you?
>> 63.
>> You're 6'3. How much you weigh?
>> 280.
>> You're 6'3. 280. You walk on the yard, you're blasted out. I mean, you got some political tattoos.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Do they I mean, the white dude's on you right away like, "Yo, what's up? Are you one of one of the homies? You one of our dudes?"
>> Yeah.
>> What's What's that like?
>> Um, it's intimidating, you know what I mean? Because you don't know, you know, you have to make a decision right away.
You know what I mean? And whatever decision you make, you got to stick with that. So, you know, if if you got doubts in your mind about who you are or what you want to be, you better get that figured out quick.
>> So, you're not really gang affiliated, but you're an Odinist.
>> Yeah.
>> Not gang affiliated on on Federal Penitentiary.
>> No.
>> No.
>> Are there dudes that are ganged up over there? They're like, "Hey, man. This is a big" Because they see opportunity, right? Big white dude.
>> You know, we could use this dude. He he could be. And they they treat people accordingly. You know, a lot of times you're a big ass white dude, they're like, "Yeah, bro. He's going to rock with us." They're probably thinking you're a gang member as soon as they seen you.
>> So, are dudes pressing you? Sack dudes like, "Yo, bro, you want to, you know?"
>> Yeah. I mean, not really. You know what I mean? I told everybody I'm an Odinist and and that's kind of just where it stayed right there. You know what I mean? But I rode in the New York car at McCreary >> and uh and and and I I was just an Odinist, you know what I mean?
>> Yeah.
>> So, >> So, when you say New York car, I mean there's New York and Boston. Is it the white New York car?
>> Yeah. It's all white. It's a white New York Boston car. Well, they call it like the New England car or something like that, but New York, Connecticut, New Hampshire. Yeah.
>> And then, you know, we all sit together at the same table.
>> You're not over there with Adam Olive at that time, right?
>> I know the name, but I don't know if he was there. You know what I mean? I I do know the name.
>> If you were there when he was there, he's he's about your size. You would know exactly who he is. He probably wasn't there when you were there. He stabbed the CEO in Big Sandy.
>> So, now you're on McCra yard. What's McCra like for you? I mean, are you involved in violence there or >> what are you seeing? What's going on there? It's It was a dangerous yard back then. very dangerous yard.
>> A lot of dudes came there from Big Sandy. A lot of dudes came there from Bulmont. It was a dangerous place.
>> They had uh there was a lot of Mexican trouble on that yard when I got there.
The Serenos and the Nortenos and and all these other different Spanish groups were, you know, they were they were on it because they were at war at the time.
So whenever a new Spanish guy would come on the yard, man, they were all over that guy. I felt bad for him, you know what I mean? Because they would press him hard and a lot of them just wanted to be Pisa or whatever, you know what I mean? They just wanted to ride out. They didn't want to be in no gangs, but they had they did have a blackhand dude over there that was running the [ __ ] for the Serenials when I was there.
>> So, do you have any violence for yourself or No, at McCra.
>> Not at McCra. No.
>> Don't have to put no work in. Nothing.
>> No work. No.
>> You're walking around. How long are you in McCra?
>> Uh, I was there about a year.
>> Just to rewind for a second, you you go there with that dude, you're kicking it with him and he gets he gets slaughtered when you get there.
>> Yeah.
>> They they demo this dude. It's over with.
>> Yeah. So, when they demo him, being that you were on that bus with him talking and kicking it with him, what were you thinking when you just seen the dude that you were kicking at? Does it matter to you? Like, bro, the dude seemed like he was an all right dude.
>> Yeah, but that was his problem. You know, at that point for me, it was just survival. So, you know what I mean? I felt bad for the dude because he seemed like a good dude, but you know, really, I just respected him because, you know, he didn't check in. Yeah.
>> He didn't he didn't try to get out of going to the yard. He he just went and took it like a man. He knew he couldn't be on that yard. He didn't, you know, he didn't try to tell, you know, and SIS knew he wasn't supposed to be there either.
>> Yeah.
>> And they let him go out there and they knew that was going to happen to him.
>> So prison politics dictate, hey, I'm going to go out here and whatever's going to happen is going to happen. But really for him, I mean, he's dead now.
The wisest decision for him would have been like, yo, I'm out of here. Because they could always be like, man, >> you know, Chris was out there. No, but hold on. Chris was out there fighting like a mother until they killed him.
Chad was out there doing his thing until they killed him.
>> Yeah. But these are prison decisions.
These aren't real world decisions.
>> These are prison decisions. Like your pride got in the way or whoever you ran.
Maybe maybe it was just he had a beef with other gangs and they're like, "Yo, oh, he's a so- and so. He's a or you know, he's he's a AB or whatever. He's a SAG dude or he's an Aryan Nation dude."
And they're like, "Yo, we're slaughtering this dude." So for the sake of his gang and his pride, he went out there because if he didn't go out there, then if he went to a different prison, they would have did him, >> then it's over with. Yeah. So, what I'm saying is these younger dudes and these dudes commit to these gangs and commit to these organizations and really, man, at the end of the day, it could get you slaughtered, right?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> So, you're in McCra for a year, you leave McCra. Where do you go?
>> USP Kanan.
>> What's Kanan? Oh, you're you're in Kanan when uh what's Kanan like?
>> Kanan's uh I I thought it was going to be a nicer spot. They had it divided into like a north side southside situation and it was an AB yard. So, there was one AB dude there from California and uh I didn't this is where I really saw politics in this yard before Officer Williams got killed.
>> You would go to the messaul and the whole you know the superintendent, the dep of security, the dep of this, dep of that. They'd all be in the messaul.
>> You know what I mean? And you have access to them to be able to talk to them. And uh that was just really strange for me. I'm like, "Wow." And uh you you weren't allowed you couldn't talk to a CO or a DEP by yourself.
Anytime you they wanted to talk to you, you had to have Sorry, I'm getting a Charlie horse in my leg. You you had to have another inmate with you or another inmate, another convict with you.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh so uh I remember there was a guy from Florida there and they had he was supposed to be getting some special trade like he was uh uh what do you call that? Uh kosher kosher trade. and uh he couldn't get it, so he kept going up to the depth, talking to him, talking to him, talking to him. And then one day he blasted the depth, you know, and he he hit him right in the face. And uh they they you know, the dry the gates dropped. They they started shooting in the mess. Oh, they locked us down for that one. And uh and then after that lockdown, I remember they called all the reps of from all the different races up to we're on lockdown and they out this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy and they all go up to the messaul and they make a deal with the with the dep of security and the warden that you know this so and so is going to happen.
We're going to be good and nothing and you can let us back out and then all the cells open and they let you back out. So it it was just crazy. You know what I mean? like the inmates were actually running the yard and uh I remember the uh whoever was in charge of that kid's car that that kid that had done that they they shipped him off the yard because the guy that was in charge should have known that was going to happen. So out out of punishment they sent that guy somewhere else. I think he went to Hazelton or something.
>> What do you think when you see that?
Someone's like, "Man, I don't even care if it's a cop."
>> That's pretty wild.
>> Shocking.
>> Yeah, that's shocking. You know what I mean? You know, like when in the state prison, everybody's, you know, you know, the cops are, you could talk a little, give them a little lip, you know, bust a flat on them, whatever, but you know, to put your hands on one of them, you don't really see that every day. You know what I mean? A >> little bit different.
>> Yeah.
>> Is there ever a time when you're in prison in Kanan or any of these places where you're afraid for your own life where you're like, "Wow, man. I'm I'm in danger here."
>> No, no, >> no. I never felt like I was in danger because, you know, I mean, I never owed a bill. I I had I had an old lady that took care of me really well while I was in there. You know what I mean?
>> So I I never would put myself in a position where where something bad was going to happen.
>> No, but you could be in a bad position based on other people's decisions, too, right?
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. If you know, because they have the hands-off policy in the feds, you know, white guy can't put his hands on a black guy and a black guy can't put his hands on a white dude. But if somebody does, you have to get in.
You know, if you see a white dude and a black dude fighting and you don't jump in, they're going to stab you off the yard. So, you know, that's why that's they have that hands-off policy because if that happens, the whole yard's going to go at it and it's going to shut down and nobody's going to be able to go to commissary. No one's going to be able to get drugs. So, they they don't want that happening. You know, when you think about it though, right, you ever think because I thought about this, you ever think that people create problems just to make sure that the day goes by? Like, it's a hands-off policy.
>> Um, and you know, when I said that to you, like I was in USP Lee and we had a situation with this white dude from Ohio. black dude took his stuff, stole his his drugs, whatever. And he's like, "Yo, Chad, I'm about to I'm about to pop on this dude when we go in." This was the at 3:30. Yard's closed. Everyone's going in four o'clock count. I'm like, "Bro, wait till tonight. Come on yard.
We're going to kick it. We're going to figure it out. His people will handle it. We'll take care of it." And I'm like, "Yo, bro. Everything's good." He's like, "Man, everything's pretty much."
He's like, "Yeah, everything's cool.
Everything's good." Well, he pops on the dude as soon as they get in the unit.
So, right after the count, we all go out to the yard. We already know, you know, this happened. We're on the yard and the whole yard's quiet.
>> And that was the one time where I thought, man, I might really lose my life in federal prison.
>> Yeah.
>> Um but we ended up politicking it out.
And uh really we had this dude, this this goofball, Kirby. He was a former armed dude. And my one of my right-hand dudes, Gibby, and Gibby was like, you know, you had the poker table. We got along with a lot of dudes. He's from Jersey. My first interview on my channel. And really, man, I think Gibby is the one that was really able to seal the deal there to make sure that it didn't happen.
>> But that was the one time where there was probably 15 white dudes on the yard and 200 other people out there, 200 black dudes. And it was it was serious.
>> And I'm like, damn, bro.
>> And I could tell that the white dudes, man, were in the white section where the white tables are by the volleyball court. And I knew that the white dudes were scared, right? I was scared, too. I ain't going to lie. I was I was scared.
And I'm like, "Look, man. We got to get away from here and get over here because this is the only place we got weapons at like in the dirt, whatever. We got to get there. And really, man, I walked them dudes through the through the middle of the yard. And I was, man, I was I was really nervous, really scared.
>> And I can't believe that we made it to where we made it and then we were able to pile the ticket out and and and it saved us. And that's why I asked you, was there ever a time when you felt like, hey, I'm in danger?
>> No. No. I was never in a situation like that where it was going to go. You know what I mean? Not on us anyway. So, you're in Kanan.
>> Any no trouble for you there?
>> No. No. I had it pretty I had it pretty easy at Kanan. Um, you know, uh, I I seen some bad stuff happen there. Yeah.
>> Again, that like, you know, I seen a Mexican dude get get killed on the yard.
I've seen a couple dudes get butchered up. Uh, you know, I was there when Officer Williams got killed. Uh, he got killed by a Mexican dude who uh, what was his deal? He was getting shipped back to Mexico for a life sentence and he didn't want to go back.
Yeah.
>> So, I don't remember what his affiliation was, but it was one of the Latin gangs that and uh they were they told him, "Yo, you got to take care of so and so because he's [ __ ] up anyway."
>> Yeah.
>> So, he I guess he went to do it, but the dude had checked in or got shipped off the yard or something. He didn't make it in time. So, >> now this dude's, you know, coming he needs to come up with a reason to stay in in the feds before he gets shipped back to Mexico. And officer Williams had done a a cell search on his cell and he claimed I I I don't know the facts. He claimed that officer Williams disrespected his cell, stepped on pictures of his kids and all that kind of stuff, but uh yeah, he he uh he stabbed that cop up I don't know how many times, but 60 or 70 times. And uh then he's walking around the unit. He went into the office, got the cop's lunch bag, and he's walking around.
Anybody want this? Anybody want that?
Everybody had put themselves in them in theirelves because they were just waiting for the team to come in.
>> Well, apparently what happened was the officer watching the cameras that day >> fell asleep at the bubble. He ended up killing himself the next day. He came to work, pulled in the in into the into the prison parking lot and offed himself because he felt so bad about what had happened to Williams. But um you know, they were they were so mad at everybody for not nobody pressed the button in their cell or or did anything to help Williams, you know what I mean? But >> what can you do? You can't help the cop.
>> You know what I mean? As much as you may want to, that's going to happen to you if you if you >> Yeah. Let me ask you about that. As much as you may want to, prison politics says you better never help the cop, >> right?
>> You know, but at the end of the day, we're all human beings, right? There are some people that have compassion. Even in prison, not everybody's a heartless, you know, felon and has no compassion.
Your human side might be like, I wish I could, you know, help this dude from not getting killed.
>> But if you do that, you end up getting killed. That's prison politics again, right?
>> Yeah. Prison politics. They were crazy.
>> Was this in your unit or a separate unit where he >> Yeah, it was in my unit.
>> You were in the unit when it happened?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Wow. What's it like? What's it like at USP Kanan after he gets butchered? They treat you like >> We were on lockdown for six months.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh we ate bologna sandwiches, breakfast, lunch, and dinner six days a week. On Sunday night, we would get a warm dinner and then we go back to bologna sandwiches. We get two showers a week and then you go to the shower handcuffed. You know what I mean? They take you out of your cell. You got five minutes in the shower, right back to your cell and you're taking a cold shower and you're going right back to your cell. There's no commissary. They they searched every cell in the prison and shook us down for everything. We didn't have no commissary. We didn't we didn't have nothing. We have baloney sandwiches.
>> Let me ask you this, right?
When that happens, like I heard rumors that the cops were really off with the white dudes, thinking that the white dudes were supposed to help him because they were white. You're a white prisoner. He's a white cop, but you were supposed to help him simply because you're white. Was that the sentiment at the time?
>> Oh, it definitely was. Definitely was like, how could you not help him? This and that. And you know how you help him, you kill yourself. You know what I mean?
That's the only way to look at it. So, >> so I know they did interviews, right?
After he gets merckked, do they pull you guys in the back? do interviews.
>> I never got interviewed. They did interview all the guys who were in charge like the guy that was in charge of the unit, the guy that was in charge of this side of the yard, the guys in char, you know what I mean? All the all the all the shot callers or the guys who had the keys to the cars. Those guys got >> cops. I mean, you're in that unit. Cops ever say something to you about it?
>> No, but you know, they on us pretty good. You know, when they searched our cells, they were spitting all over our stuff and you know, they took all of our clothes. We had nothing, man. It was It was pretty bad. Was there ever a point where you felt like that dude kills the cop there, you know, they're mad at the white dudes like, yo, they might try to kill your ass in here now. Like you you could become a victim.
>> Yeah, you know, we we we worried about it, but it never happened. They, you know, I'm sure that there was probably some guys that were getting cheap shots from the from the cops when they were getting cuffed up and stuff like that or getting cuffed extra hard and pushed around, but nothing nothing serious.
>> I'm going to ask you a question that other YouTube channels don't ask. You're white. You're in Kanan. They're pretty bad on the R stuff. Like they're I've been there so I know. And I was there after that stuff happened through transit and I was stuck there for like 60 days. Do you ever feel like they treat you a little bit different?
Because before Williams gets merked like because you're a white big, they might look at you, they don't know where you're from, but they might think you're a country boy too like them. You just got jammed up. You ever feel like they treat you a little bit better?
>> Oh yeah. You definitely had an advantage when it came to like, you know, getting a guard to bring you cigarettes or a bottle of booze, you know what I mean?
>> Or a job.
>> Yeah. Even a job. Yeah. Like we had uh the white guys had a lot of the best jobs. Like we had the the laundry room job. So when guys were on the I don't know, I can't remember they call it. It was a draft and state prison, but when you're on transit in the feds, >> they they would get the role. You know what I mean? They'd have everybody's name, everybody's number, where they're coming from. So, you know, and I had uh what do you call it? What's that app you had on the computer, honey?
>> For the for the court documents.
>> Pacer.
>> Pacer. Okay. She had Pacer. So, they would give me the names and I would have her run through Pacer to check out everybody's [ __ ] So, before they even got there, two weeks before they get there, we already knew who was good and who was bad.
>> So, you're all the way involved in the prison politics.
>> Oh, yeah. At the time it was.
>> So, you're you're that dude. You're you're the paperwork guy. Yeah. You're checking these >> and I was the deuce guy.
>> You're the deuce guy.
>> Yeah. You're getting the birthday cards done in deuce every week.
Unbelievable. So, you were getting some money.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> That's one thing I'm going to say about you, bro. Since the day I known you, you're always hustling. You're I mean, like, dude, who else is going to be stealing $12,000 worth of >> metal? You know what I mean? Yeah.
>> Like, how do you even figure that out?
Like, I really I always feel like you always end up in something good. Well, something bad, but something good in the moment, >> right?
>> You You always got something going on.
Yeah.
>> So, if you're the deuce, man, you're that dude.
>> I definitely was.
>> You were that dude.
>> Yeah. And I I you know, so I never I never had to come out of pocket for anything over there at Kanan, you know what I mean? I always I had a cell full of good stuff, you know what I mean? And uh like, you know, I I always had a tattoo guy in myself so I could get tattooed during lockdowns and stuff like that.
>> Are they ever plotting on you, you think? Like, man, we want to get this dude.
>> I don't know because we didn't we didn't put it out there where it was coming from. Like I never took it out to the yard and sold it. I would give it to my guy Travis and he would take it out to the yard and and >> so no one knew that you were the man, >> right? They didn't know who it was to cuz you know we don't want nobody to rat on us whose mail it was.
>> So no one ever knew.
>> No.
>> Unbelievable, bro.
>> Yeah.
>> Crazy, man. Crazy life. Crazy story. So you're in Canaan. You end up getting shipped from Canaan, right?
>> Or do you go home from there?
>> I came home from Kanan.
>> Oh, you go home from Kanan.
>> Yeah.
>> So now you do.
>> So what happened was in 2016 they had that uh what do you call that law where they changed people's sentence. You could get that downward departure. uh uh >> Save Act or something maybe >> something like that. So my my original guideline >> fair sentencing act >> fair sentencing act my original guideline was 63 to 78 months >> and I had the marijuana charges on there because they had raided my my potro house >> and uh so I write the Sarrausa and Brett Harvey I had one of the guys one of the library guys write it up for me. I send it in and I'm like you know if you give me the the thing it's only 15 months. If you gave me the 15 months off, it only gets me down to the beginning of my guideline where you should have sentenced me anyway.
>> Yeah.
>> Brett Harvey and Sarah send me like a fivepage letter back telling me what a guy I am. I've been in prison getting all these shots and I haven't learned my lesson and I'm probably going to spend the rest of my life in prison anyway. So why should we give you those 15 months off? And I ended up doing the whole 78 months.
>> So you didn't even So you file really a 3582 letter and they're like, nah, everyone thought that was automatic. I tell people now, it's not automatic.
>> It's not automatic. Everybody I know that filed for it got it. But me, because I had started off in in in the in the medium and ended up in the pen, they were like, "No, you haven't learned your lesson. We're not giving you nothing. I got no play at all."
>> I see the cut on your face, right? That you didn't have that when I knew you.
>> No. What happens?
>> I remember, you know, but when I went to prison in in 2002, you know, my biggest worry was I'm going to get caught on my face or I'm going to get stabbed up. And I just wanted to come home in one piece, you know what I mean? So, I ended up doing almost 17 years, you know, and uh never got a mark on me. But when I came home from prison, uh I ended up relapsing and going back out in the street and uh these dudes, uh they oded me and while I was unconscious on a couch, they hit me in the head with a with a steel pipe and stabbed me in the face and they did a number on me. So, ended up getting all this this after I had gone through all the prison stuff.
But >> you were in Rochester, they do this to you?
>> Yeah, in Rochester. dudes you were hanging out with or >> Oh, yeah. Dudes I was partying with on the regular. They just wanted to rob me.
>> But you were unconscious.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> And they do this while you're sleeping, while you're >> I was I was OD.
>> Yeah. You know what I mean?
>> But I remember I remember the the the hit on the head >> kind of brought me out of it, you know, and then I felt the in my face and I knew better than to touch my face because I remember all the dude saying, "Oh yeah, if he grabs his face it'll open up and this and that." So, I knew better and I knew I had been stabbed.
And I sat up and put my feet on the ground and all I see is these two idiots that just did this to me running out the door of their own house to get away from me. I'm like, "Man, you guys are cowards."
So, I went home out to Webster where we live and uh I let people think what they wanted to think and everybody was telling the story that I was dead.
>> Yeah.
>> It it made the rounds through the hood, you know, oh, monster's dead. Monster's dead. And really what it was was I wanted these people to think that because I was plotting on these dudes that did that to me. You know what I mean? But uh the dude ended up going to federal prison for kidnapping somebody.
So didn't even matter.
>> Do I know the dude? Do I know who it was? Do I know them from the neighborhood or no?
>> You know one of them? Yeah, >> I do.
>> Yes.
>> Unbelievable.
>> Yeah.
>> You'll tell me after we get off cuz I want to know who it is.
>> Yeah.
>> So anyway, I mean you're finally when when do you finally decide, hey man, it's over. How long How long you been sober?
>> Uh two and a half years. So, what makes you say, "Hey, I got to get sober today."
>> Almost three. Uh, so there was a lot of times when I was out there using I wanted to get clean.
>> Yeah.
>> But I didn't know how. Like I would tell myself, man, I'm not going to use for just one or two days just to show myself that I still can. And I couldn't, man. I would wake up in the and I would just be sick. I couldn't function. I couldn't do anything. You know, my last my last year and a half that I was out there, I o I overdosed. uh eight times. And I don't mean like someone had to narcam me. I mean like hospitalization, ambulance ride, overdoses, you know, like life-saving efforts to bring me back.
>> And uh I just I didn't want to die out in the street and you know, my girl had started using again. Um she just got to the point where she was like, you know, you can't beat them. Join them. You know what I mean? So she started partying with me again and I had felt bad about that. So, uh, I get arrested for something. I'm in jail and I'm on the veterans unit and, uh, they get me into drug court and, uh, I go to drug court and the judge, you know, he evaluates me and he says, "Yeah, we're going to release you." And, uh, they release me that day and two hours later I was in the hospital overdosed again, almost dead.
So, a couple weeks later, I get bagged in a stolen car. I go back and they bring me back into drug court and uh I can't think of his name. What's the judge's name? H Judge Denovo. Great man.
You know, I give him a lot of credit, man. He him and and the people in his drug court really did a lot for me. They helped me out. He gives me another chance. He's about to release me again.
And my lady worker there, Jessica Fox, they're about to release me again. And I was like, you know, you can't release me, man. If you release me, it's going to happen again. I'm going to go out and use it and I'm going to die. So, I ended up staying in jail for about two more months.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh till they found a bed for me and they sent me out to Conifer Park out in uh >> Clifton Springs.
>> Clifton Springs or No, no, no. Albany, Skenctity.
>> So, I went out there for 28 days. And while I while I was in jail waiting in my bed, I I called her and I says, you know, I'm gonna get my life together.
And she's like, "Yeah, right." And I'm like, "Listen, this is where the last of my [ __ ] is. Throw it away. Do it. do whatever you want, but I'm really going to get my life together. I'm I'm going to rehab. I'm going to stay in jail till they get me a bed. And I guess she believed me because she stopped uh a few days after I did. Well, I was incarcerated. She was out in the street.
She did it on her own. I had to go to programs and stuff, but so I went to uh 28 day program. And then when I got out of there, uh I wanted to go to a halfway house in order to give her time to take care of herself and me time to take care of myself. So we weren't at each other's throats while we're going through all this.
>> So I stayed at the Richard's house in Rochester for about six months >> and then I went home and you know ever since then we've we've you know we work a program you know what I mean? We we do meetings every every every week sometimes multiple. We uh we go to con uh Norris Clinic, Helio, uh U of we go to a lot of different places every month and you know we go in there and share our story with people and you know try to help other other addicts and people that want to change their lives, you know what I mean?
>> And you own your own little construction company now, making good money, living your best life, beautiful truck. How's it feel to just be normal?
>> It's pretty wild.
>> It's nice, right?
>> Yeah. to go from that 11-year-old kid in a secure detention, mother kind of turns her back on you to, you know, going through all the things you've been through, the violence, the things that you witnessed, things that you've experienced, getting hit in the head, stabbed in the face. You finally bring it full full circle when you're almost 50 probably at that time, right?
>> Yeah. Well, I'm 54 now, so >> So 51. Yeah. You >> took me a long time to learn my lesson, you know, but you know, for the first time in my life, I'm happy, man. And and that's that's something. And it's not because I got money now or because I have a business or, >> you know, my my wife stood by me all those years and we're still together now. I think we're happier now than we ever have been, you know, and it feels good to be able to, you know, go try to help other people. Whether it helps them or not, I don't know. You know what I mean? I don't know if if they're going to get it like me. It took me a long time to get it, but you know, you know, I I give my phone number out. I get phone calls at two in the morning.
People are like, "Hey, can you come pick me up?" I go go pick him up at a craft house off of Lyle Avenue and I'll take them out to Helio and Henriette or to Norris or wherever it is. We can get them in, you know.
>> So, you're doing good things. Yeah, that's what's up.
>> I'm trying.
>> So, you're working the program Suboxin, methodone, any of that stuff or no?
>> Uh, I was on Suboxin and then uh I was on um sublicate injection, but uh I only got like two more shots left. So, I'm I'm actually weaning myself off of the subclicate injection now.
>> So, so when I first started uh trying to get clean on suboxin obviously I started hustling I started selling the suboxin and so this time when I got clean I says I I don't want just give me the injection so that you know there's no temptation there to do anything you know what I mean so once a month I get a 100 milligram injection of supplicate >> before we go I'm sure a lot of people want to know this right because I want to know too >> your mother was distant from your life all that time is there ever a reconnection >> yes my mother passed and that was I believe that was the thing that that sent me back out this last time that that that you know four, five, six years ago. Um but yeah, uh we we were very close uh at the end and you know her last words on this earth were her begging me for forgiveness. So >> So you guys reconnect and you're close.
You're like, "Man's my mom. I love her."
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I forgave her. I know, you know, what she went through was hard and it wasn't easy. You know what I mean? you know, being an 18-year-old woman with two little kids, you know, in the hood, you know, on welfare with nothing, having to do whatever she had to do to survive, you know, I mean, I know she made some some some choices that weren't great for me, but I I forgave her for that. You know what I mean? I believe, you know, we all go through what we go through for a reason, you know what I mean?
>> Sure.
>> You know, so I'm not mad at anybody and and I definitely don't use all the things that happened to me as an excuse to to throw my life away anymore. You know what I mean? I try to use my story to to help people that maybe that can relate to what I went through to what they went through. You know what I mean?
>> So, you sharing your story before we go.
We're going to get ready to close. But what would you tell your younger self, man, about your life and what direction to go?
>> I think I would tell myself that, you know, just because you know you nobody was there for you doesn't mean that you have to, you know, do that. cuz like I have I I've met other people that have been through worse than me and have, you know, turned their life into something positive. I think I was so angry and I felt like nobody loved me that, you know, I I just I rejected everything. But, you know, I think um I would just tell tell myself to, you know, find find the people out there that that will care about you because there are people out there that do care and there there people out there who who want to be there for you.
>> Yeah.
>> You know what I mean? You just have to find them. Don't make bad decisions because someone made a bad decision that affected you because all you're doing is throwing your life away. You know what I mean?
>> Don't let that be an excuse to ruin your own life.
>> Yeah, >> pretty much.
>> Yeah. Which is what I did. I used all that stuff as a crutch for many, many years. Like, oh, I'm going to, you know, get high because this happened to me.
But had I not done that, I could have been where I am now back then.
>> Kind of like mullification, looking for an excuse.
>> Yeah.
>> But anyway, man, definitely appreciate you coming on. I'm going to tell people if you like what we're doing, hit that like button, hit that subscribe button, check us out on Spotify. We got the Patreon coming up. We got a bunch of different things. Website being put together. Blow on the Razor Wire TV with respect. until tomorrow.
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