Streeting’s Lack Of Defence Background Not A Problem | Alice Thomson

[00:00:00]Now we're going to be unpacking the politics of the day. From why the new government may discover that ending rough sleeping is much harder than it sounds to the latest shift in number 10's political communication strategy.

[00:00:09]And aboard the Burnham bus, can he really bring buses back? There may also be some talk about good solid muscular bottoms. And speaking of nice hunks of beef you always want behind you, Robert Crampton's here.

[00:00:21]>> Hi, Hugo.

[00:00:21]>> How are you?

[00:00:22]>> Yeah, I'm good. I'm all right.

[00:00:23]>> Even after that. That's >> Yeah, even after that.

[00:00:25]>> And apologies in advance. Also, Alice Thomson. Hello, Alice.

[00:00:28]>> Hi. Well, Robert can he just squeeze into the chair now? He's got such good glutes.

[00:00:31]>> Yeah.

[00:00:31]>> Do you reckon? Oh, thank you. So kind, Alice. You're you're flattering you're flattering me every week.

[00:00:35]>> We should see if we can get the camera on there to uh No, maybe not.

[00:00:38]>> No.

[00:00:39]>> How are you both? You both well?

[00:00:41]You having an exciting week?

[00:00:43]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:00:43]>> Yeah.

[00:00:44]>> Well, you have a new Labour new brand, sort of.

[00:00:46]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:00:47]>> You're kind of getting used to it, aren't we?

[00:00:49]>> Yeah.

[00:00:49]>> Yeah, I mean, it's not got it's not quite got the buzz it used to have, has it, a new prime minister? It's like, yeah, yeah.

[00:00:54]>> No, I'm feeling very, very buzzy. Uh look, at his first cabinet meeting yesterday morning, Andy Burnham told ministers to take a hard look at their budgets. He appeared to be rolling the pitch for an effective income tax cut on Monday, but then he seems to have backtracked from that already. That plan seems to have been scrapped. Alice, do you get a sense he's already sort of feeling a sense of how tight the fiscal shackles are when you're in office?

[00:01:16]>> Yeah, I think he now knows what it was like for Keir Starmer. So, he has belittled Keir quite a lot and even recently. And he's you know, he's made it sound like Keir just wasn't up to the job. And actually now he's beginning to understand how tricky it's going to be.

[00:01:26]And he's already given away quite a lot.

[00:01:27]You know, he wants to end rough sleeping. He wants the two-pound buses.

[00:01:31]Social social yeah, social care is going to be the big one. And so, he's got to work out what he's going to do. And it's just I mean, it's almost like simple maths. You know, if you're going to give out money, you've got to find out what where it's coming from.

[00:01:41]>> There were various headlines this morning about him sort of sitting at the cabinet table imploring people to find cuts in their in their department budgets. And it's like, surely I don't know. It's like surely someone's tried that before. Surely someone said, "Hey guys, just try."

[00:01:53]>> Yeah, I mean, take a long hard look is is really leadership, is it? It's sort of saying it would be nice if you had a look at your budget over the summer and came back with but it's not really cracking the whip and saying to people you must find 5% or or whatever.

[00:02:06]>> Well, see he doesn't want to take the responsibility, does he? So, what he's saying is you you're going to have to announce this. It's not going to be me.

[00:02:11]I'm not going to say I'm cutting back on anything. You're the ones you've got to be the bad guys. I'm going to be the good guy.

[00:02:16]>> That is kind of how cabinet responsibility is meant to work, I suppose, sort of, isn't it?

[00:02:19]>> No, I think you take the flight if you're the leader, you're the one that says we're going to have to make hard choices, aren't you?

[00:02:24]>> Okay, well, let's have a listen >> listen to Andy Burnham speaking to reporters this morning.

[00:02:27]>> I will always be honest with the public.

[00:02:29]It's my style.

[00:02:31]This week the three of policies I've announced ending rough sleeping, the cap the bus cap we're announcing today and the removal of VAT off electricity bills are all fully funded and that's the way I will go and people will say well, how I've re-prioritized the public's priority is reducing cost of living pressures and that's what I'm doing.

[00:02:56]>> Yeah, I don't that doesn't sound fully funded to me.

[00:02:59]>> Yeah, he says he'll always be honest and so then says they're fully funded, but we've heard that one of them isn't fully funded.

[00:03:04]>> Well, we've heard that the the the the cut on electricity VAT which is I think he's going to be cost about close on a billion 800 million million 850 million it's funded by the by the fact that digital IDs are being scrapped, but apparently that money had not already been allotted anyway. So, that's not really a saving and the other two I mean you hear three measures and they all cost money rather than raise money.

[00:03:31]So, all cut or cut money. So, all cut spending. So, that doesn't sound fully funded to me.

[00:03:37]>> Also, he's made so many enemies with Kier Starmer's lot that you know Darren Jones is just going to keep saying if money isn't going to come and and they're not going to help him. They're not going to say, you know what actually when we were in office we realized that we could have saved this money here and here. We just didn't get round to it or didn't have time. They're going to do absolutely nothing to help, are they?

[00:03:52]>> I sort of wonder if the the more striking thing already I look it's early days. We don't know what the situation will be in a week and one doesn't want to be like oh he's a disaster after you know sort of barely barely 48 hours. But like he must have seen this coming. He must have thought I've been talking a good game and very quickly I'm going to have to say how I pay for stuff. He must have done.

[00:04:10]>> Yeah, but he also I mean his priority is to keep the Labour MPs on side, isn't it? So that that's hence the sort of soft language on you know look hard at your budgets rather than saying you must cut. Uh what worried me as I mean they would get onto rough sleeping later but just that the sort of kind of institutional point him saying I have issued an instruction to end rough sleeping. That to me I mean obviously it's a it's a it's a headline grabber and it's relatively cheap. I mean it's hard to do.

[00:04:37]But it's also betraying a sort of certain naivety about you know you I put I'm the big man now I pull this lever and something happens. I mean wouldn't it was that simple.

[00:04:45]>> Mhm.

[00:04:45]>> Yeah, it's not going to be that cheap. I mean it's it's an almost impossible thing to achieve so to say I'm going to be honest when he says I'm going to end rough sleeping he's not. He didn't end it in Manchester. He's not going to end it in Britain. It's impossible to end so it was an odd one to start with because it's something that he's never going to find possible to achieve, is it?

[00:05:01]>> I did think as well in his speech that pledge it sort of slightly seemed to come out of nowhere. I guess it's the perils of speaking without notes that maybe there'd been some kind of preamble leading up to it.

[00:05:09]>> I think he always wanted to do it because I remember I saw him 10 years ago and doing an interview and it was the first thing he said he wanted to do when he was mayor of Manchester. And we went up there and I spent a day with him looking at rough sleeping so he does care passionately about this issue and he really really wants to do it. Oddly Jeremy Corbyn said it was the first thing that he would do if he became Prime >> I think Boris and Theresa did as well, didn't they?

[00:05:26]>> Theresa May's done it and so the Lib Dems had it in their manifesto. So >> I mean Prince William Prince William said it. Didn't they?

[00:05:34]It's uh >> Well Prince William says he's got a five-year plan but he's also got the housing so I mean he's actually doing something because he's trying to change the system by you know using some of his housing.

[00:05:43]>> It can be done. We went some distance towards eradicating rough sleeping during COVID for example but you've got I guess you need the cooperation of them cooperation of the rough sleepers, otherwise it becomes a bit authoritarian.

[00:05:52]>> was 90% of them were put in hotels, but that was also quite temporary cuz it came back again in 2023. So, you know, you can say you'll do that and people do it if they're fearful. They will go into a hotel, but there's it's so much more complex.

[00:06:03]>> Yeah, and yeah, and it needs some really serious joined-up government because it's a lot of it is a problem of mental health and substance abuse.

[00:06:08]>> And it's also it's a hostage to fortune.

[00:06:10]Cuz all it takes is one person sleeping on sleeping on Whitehall and the photo of him driving past and it's like bang, there you go.

[00:06:15]>> Yeah. I guess he's trying to set some sort of mood music and and you know, it's in the way that uh Keir Starmer didn't do the opposite of hitting the ground running. He's trying to He's trying to say, you know, this is my agenda. Here I am.

[00:06:26]>> Yeah, and it does come up in polls the whole time. So, when people are asked what they want, they say they want to end the rough sleeping in their towns cuz it just looks bad. And they feel guilty and you know, no one benefits.

[00:06:35]It's So, actually it's a great thing to try and achieve. It's just they're not going to do it unless they, you know, they pull the levers on all sorts of different areas. Every single department's going to have to pull their weight if they want to achieve this.

[00:06:45]>> Yeah, you you you do I mean, just stick on rough sleeping for a moment longer. You don't deal You don't solve rough sleeping by promising to solve rough sleeping. You solve rough sleeping by promising to solve all the problems that feed into it.

[00:06:55]>> Yes. Well, like prisons. I mean, prisons is going to be a disaster cuz they you know, they're letting out 5,000 people.

[00:06:59]Those people haven't got places to go and live. They've been let out early.

[00:07:02]You know, they've got a third of them haven't got a home. So, they're going to be on the streets. Then you've got the mental health issues which they haven't sorted out. And then you've got the asylum seekers and not all of them have places to go. So, you've got a whole load of people who are all on the streets for different reasons.

[00:07:15]>> Veterans. You've got a lot Veterans are on the streets.

[00:07:17]>> Startling number of veterans.

[00:07:18]>> Yeah. Domestic abuse. There's so many things like that that you're just going to have to address before you are going to clear up the problem.

[00:07:24]>> Yeah, indeed. Well, look, it didn't take long yesterday for Burnham to move onto his favorite topic of conversation, which is apparently buses. And today we have a £2 cap on bus fares outside London, which is costing the taxpayer £400 million. So, it's yeah, yet another sum. But, buses are always the most unloved sort of joke form of public policy. I think kind of people outside cities and outside major cities do see them a bit differently. I remember that there's that remarkable quote from Margaret Thatcher saying it was any man over the age of 25 who finds himself on a bus must consider himself a failure.

[00:07:53]>> Did she actually say that?

[00:07:54]>> Uh let's assume she did. She was Do you think she didn't? Is that a possibility?

[00:07:57]>> worried cuz he takes the bus every day.

[00:07:59]>> I get the bus every day. I get the >> I wonder if she was saying it specifically about you, Robert.

[00:08:02]>> No, I mean I don't I I mean I don't consider myself a failure. I don't consider the other people on the bus a failure. Uh buses in in in London are uh great. They're not a joke at all. Uh they take rather longer than they should do, but you can sit and read and you get there eventually.

[00:08:18]Uh so but I'm surprised It's the fact is the opposite cuz when I talk to people outside of London and and my they're surprised at my familiarity with the bus.

[00:08:26]>> Mhm.

[00:08:27]>> Partly because uh rural bus services or suburban bus services are more or less nonexistent in this country. I mean they're they're a disgrace. I remember doing a story up in Essex a year or two ago. And if you people there wanted to get to Saffron Walden, I think it was, which is sort of 8 9 mi away, there was one bus a a day.

[00:08:44]>> Mhm.

[00:08:44]>> So if you were old or or disabled or I didn't have a car for any reason, you were stuck.

[00:08:50]>> Yeah, well if you're going to school, I mean the school buses there like in in Devon, the bus system now is just impossible to get anywhere at all. And if also they don't link with the train.

[00:08:57]So a train may come in. So if you're a child trying to get to school, the train comes in and the bus comes in, you know, 45 minutes before or 45 minutes after.

[00:09:04]That's just never going to work. That You need to have And that's if you go to places like I mean Germany's dire, too, but go to Italy and Switzerland. They've now linked everything up. And so they've got an incredible bus system that's linked into their train system. And then they've got the bikes.

[00:09:17]>> Yeah.

[00:09:17]>> I mean I think the £2 cap is I'm not sure people are not getting buses because they're they're they're too expensive.

[00:09:22]>> Yeah, they're not getting buses cuz there aren't the buses.

[00:09:24]>> Correct.

[00:09:24]>> Yeah. That's probably true. How did I mean So I know in Scotland they they made bus travel free for teenagers, which had this sort of remarkable effect that all teenagers in their holidays would just be traveling all round Scotland by bus, which is Everybody loved it, although it was kind of bankrupting. I'm not quite I'm not quite sure what's happening there. Alice, how do we re-glamorize the bus? How do we make it so it's sort of a nation that's that's proud and delighted about having a much more sort of extensive bus network that we no longer think that anyone who finds themselves on a bus, anyone who finds themselves on a bus is a failure. Everyone wants a good bus network.

[00:09:53]>> think the buses are quite iconic still in London. I take a bus sometimes. I'm not a huge person.

[00:09:57]>> I I live in the real world.

[00:09:58]>> world, they just have to have more. I mean, there just are none. And it's it's kind of extraordinary. It's the number one bus. If you get off at Tiverton, there is I mean, and that always just makes your heart sink cuz you think, "Where are the other buses if it's just number one?" And and that's that and it just goes round and round and and and I think what they need to do is just have a much better, probably smaller fleet of buses in the countryside that are, you know, that are and also I quite like the idea of just color, you know, the the fact that they we just they just look grim, don't they now?

[00:10:24]>> I want I want mini buses rather than big buses. I mean, even in London, I would have more of those. I mean, the problem with it in London, you've got a bus which is twice a day is too small and for the rest of the time is way too big.

[00:10:37]>> Mhm.

[00:10:37]>> Uh and I'd enforce bus lanes properly.

[00:10:42]Uh uh I mean, the people get away with just blocking up bus lanes.

[00:10:46]Uh I have Yeah, more of them and you know, like 12, 18-seater mini buses rather than great uh big unwieldy things that are not good in any good on country lanes and >> Mhm.

[00:10:58]>> They just just Yeah.

[00:11:00]>> I I once took a bus from Stornoway on the Western Isles to London and some small part of me emotionally is kind of still on it even though this was in the mid-1990s. Look, coming up, we're going to be talking about defense spending as well and the cabinet overall and plenty more beside. Before, as promised, we do get to bottoms. You are Griffin here on Times Radio currently unpacking the politics of the day with Alice Thompson and Robert Crampton. We've been talking a bit about the cabinet and the dilemmas they have over spending. Let's talk about defense spending. When he was defense secretary, John Healey hounded the Treasury to increase military spending to up to 3% of GDP before he resigned over the funding route. But Andy Burnham is so far refusing to commit to this target. This was echoed by Wes Streeting, the new Defense Secretary, as he refused to call for the 3% target wanted even by the new Chancellor. This is going to be quite the bun fight, isn't it, Alice, because um defense is one of the key areas where we assume spending will have to go up.

[00:11:52]John Healey resigned over it not going up, and yet now he's the guy, you know, pulling the lever, as it were, and it still might not go up.

[00:11:58]>> Yeah, I mean, that's outrageous in a way. You can't resign because you say there's enough money, and then when you've actually able to give it, no. I think Wes will be quite good there. Wes was always good at getting money for health. I think it's a pity he's left health because I think he was great, and it it was he was just beginning to, you know, get to grips with it. And I don't think it matters that he's got, you know, no defense background. I think we've got this new, and it's only in the last few years when we've had to have somebody that's, you know, dressed in fatigues and kind of loves getting on a tank and diving into icy water. I don't think we need that. I think we need someone who is going to get the cash, but he doesn't need to get it.

[00:12:28]>> Mhm. Maybe maybe he wants to get on a tank and dive into icy water, as well.

[00:12:32]>> Well, he not not the first Defense Secretary who didn't who wasn't who didn't serve in the forces. That was uh >> weren't they?

[00:12:37]>> That was a certain a certain Mr. Rifkind who was the first Defense Secretary who didn't serve. But I mean, >> Yeah, I mean, it is weird that John Healey is now at least theoretically in a position to make good on the promise that he resigned over, uh and yet might not be able to.

[00:12:50]Very strange. Uh I don't know I don't know I think I I think one of the the problems with British politics is that I think the average cabinet minister is in the job for about 11 months or something. I mean, I know I'm okay, so Streeting did well to get 2 years at health. I mean, that was his that's his thing. That's his passion.

[00:13:06]So, I think the more people can stay where their expertise is, the better.

[00:13:10]I'm glad that Shabana Mahmood has stayed at the >> And Yvette Cooper should have stayed at Foreign Office because actually she's very good at it, and Ed Miliband obviously has zero interest in the Foreign Office and doesn't even like getting on a plane.

[00:13:20]It's not going to work.

[00:13:21]>> And that is how things get done. I mean, I think successful ministers over time of both parties are people who who have a good crack at it.

[00:13:29]So, yeah, I mean I I don't think I mean having said that, I think he's Wes Streeting is a good thing. I think he's a he's a bright guy. He'll he'll he'll get on top of his brief. It's I mean it's fairly straightforward. We just need to we need to spend a lot more and we need to spend it on different kind of systems rather than great big prestige projects that like aircraft carriers that don't work.

[00:13:50]>> Unless I'm wrong, I think the Times reports today that Rachel Reeves was offered the defense job before it went to Wes Streeting.

[00:13:55]>> Well, I think she may have been >> have been offered the education job.

[00:13:57]>> I think she was offered both.

[00:13:58]>> So, I mean that what's weird is he didn't want it. What I think is kind of there's some thing that doesn't sit quite right with me is the fact that Jon Healey, if if he didn't want more for defense, why was he resigning? And then you get this sense now that a lot of them it was almost orchestrated this resignation list that they all did it cuz they wanted to get rid of Kier. And it feels, you know, if that's what they were doing, if there was this much of a plot and a plan and that they were all offered various things if they left. Um it doesn't really bode well for the new government cuz you're all thinking, you know, you actually really wanted to get rid of your >> Somebody wrote a column about this. I think it might have been Juliet Samuel.

[00:14:28]I might be giving her undue credit cuz it might have been Paddy Maguire, but I think it was Juliet saying when Healey went and everyone was saying what a great guy he is, she said, "Hold on a minute.

[00:14:38]There might be there might be a deal here. Look out for look out for Jon Healey as Andy Burnham's Chancellor."

[00:14:45]>> Yeah.

[00:14:45]>> it was her and she's all over the defense stuff. So, whatever happens.

[00:14:49]>> cuz you've got the Labour's Scottish guy who's now coming down and he's going to be in the House of Lords having said he didn't like the House of Lords. He's also going to get a job and he was the first to resign. So, >> But that's standard, isn't it?

[00:14:58]>> They always they always do that. Look, let's have a look at the cabinet overall and who's in it cuz it's it's pretty diverse. It's it's very northern. There are a lot of women, but on the other hand, it may well be the most Oxbridge education educated cabinet of the modern era. What do we think about that, Robert?

[00:15:12]>> I think it's 15 out of 28 attending cabinet.

[00:15:15]>> Mhm.

[00:15:15]>> 53% went to Oxbridge. Uh I'm I'd be surprised if that was the higher than some of the maybe >> The olden days.

[00:15:22]>> the olden days. Uh Harold Wilson famously had eight Oxford first in one of his one of his cabinets.

[00:15:29]Uh but then I guess that would have been balanced out by working class trade unionists. So Yeah, it's a lot it's the way on I speak as somebody who has benefited from the uh Oxbridge uh stamp. Uh but yeah, it's the way this it's not it's obviously an an example of a complete lack of diversity in this country. I would say in which is defense that uh it's it's a they're meritocratic in a in a sense that you have to get into them unless you're King Charles who went there with two Ds I think to Cambridge.

[00:16:02]Uh so it's not the same as public school. They're often they're often bracketed together oh public school and Oxbridge. But one is about money and the other is uh at least uh an imperfect meritocracy.

[00:16:14]>> What?

[00:16:14]>> So therefore it wouldn't be a surprise that that those people do do well and get into the cabinet.

[00:16:18]>> Do I say just a note to the diversity in the room right now?

[00:16:21]I I see went to Oxbridge but unlike you Robert, I went to Cambridge. And Andy Burnham is the first Cambridge PM since Stanley Baldwin in 1937. So Alice, it's nice to see it's nice to see the little guys finally getting a go, isn't it?

[00:16:32]>> Yeah, and honestly the diversity is amazing here. I think what's strange is this Labour cabinet have very much said that they were brought up under Thatcher and education was appalling and they had it really tough and it was awful. And yet they got to Oxbridge. So something's working in Britain if the talented are getting into the top universities. And in some ways you could say it's great that we have this incredibly diverse cabinet where you know over half of them 54% is that who went to Oxbridge you know got there and they got there on merit and they didn't get there with any family connections or having gone to private school. And they've got I think is it six of them went to private school. And you know that's probably about what what the percentage in the country is.

[00:17:11]And they've got two who were born abroad. I mean it's >> No, the percentage in the country is much lower than that Alice cuz that's nearly quarter.

[00:17:16]>> yeah.

[00:17:16]>> Yeah, but that's nearly a quarter six out of 28.

[00:17:18]>> Six out of 28 is more, yeah. But they're they're kind of, you know, it's it's a much more balanced cabinet than it would have been before. I mean, when you had grammar schools, it was different again.

[00:17:28]That was a thing that it just because we lost those and you went back to >> But because it's so balanced, as you say, you'd think they'd be a bit more forgiving of the world that allowed that to happen, rather than seeing it as the point where everything started to go wrong.

[00:17:39]>> Possibly, yeah, or they might say this, you know, they had this opportunity, so they like it cuz they I mean, I know coming from I don't sound like too much like Andy Burnham with his Manchester stick, but coming from a northern comprehensive, I got to Oxford and I realized that the people there the you know, the top 10 people in my stack class at school, none of whom other went to Oxbridge apart from me, were as clever as those people.

[00:18:03]>> Right.

[00:18:03]>> So, you think, well, why didn't they have this opportunity as well?

[00:18:06]>> Mhm. See, that's funny cuz I went to a sort of, you know, minor public school in Scotland and I got to Cambridge and realized that nobody from my school, including me, was even remotely as clever as any of the people I was meeting that >> Right.

[00:18:15]>> Yeah, okay.

[00:18:16]>> Yeah, but uh >> Yeah, well.

[00:18:18]>> Maybe that's Cambridge versus Oxford.

[00:18:19]>> Maybe maybe it's me versus Robert, you >> The stats on the northern thing were interesting. I mean, it's funny, isn't it, that everybody makes a fuss because a majority of them were born in the north. Oh, no, not a majority even, but a lot of them were born in the north.

[00:18:31]I looked at those figures and I saw that 7% of Thatcher's first cabinet were born in the north, 7%.

[00:18:36]>> Mhm.

[00:18:36]>> Uh I don't know whether anybody made a fuss about that at the time, but that's It makes you think that's maybe why she was able to do what she did to manufacturing industry in the north of England.

[00:18:45]>> But I guess it was a Yeah, no, that's probably true. But I guess it was it was sort of a less big deal then because until that happened, we had a we had a more balanced nation. You know what I mean? Like you weren't you weren't the underdog just cuz you came from Manchester back in the 1970s. You know, you were you were from you were from another proud hub of Britain.

[00:19:01]>> I guess so, although it was obviously a big barrier to get into a conservative cabinet, wasn't it?

[00:19:04]>> Well, yeah, that's true. That's true.

[00:19:06]Although there there's a long tradition of of Tories from Birmingham, for example.

[00:19:10]>> Yeah, but there's yeah, Birmingham isn't included in this in this definition of the north. It's northeast, northwest, and Yorkshire and Humber.

[00:19:15]>> didn't have any. They're just You have to go back to sort of pit. I mean, it's like I think they're all just you know, having a good time on the beaches.

[00:19:22]>> You know, man Baldwin was a Cambridge boy, wasn't he? From Birmingham, I think.

[00:19:24]>> yeah, I think he was.

[00:19:25]>> same you're Chamberlain.

[00:19:26]>> So so southwest, no no cabinet ministers, no bosses. What a nightmare.

[00:19:30]>> Yeah.

[00:19:31]>> Uh let's move on.

[00:19:32]>> Oh, sorry. That's what I wanted to know.

[00:19:33]Did you do philosophy?

[00:19:34]>> Oh, you did philosophy? Oh.

[00:19:34]>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I did philosophy.

[00:19:36]>> Yes, so do you think Burnham's inferior to you then?

[00:19:38]>> I don't know. How hard is it to get in for English? But let's be honest, the books are easier.

[00:19:41]>> Uh >> let's move on. I want to talk about Well, let's talk about early release.

[00:19:44]The the mother of Andrew Harper, the police officer who was dragged behind a speeding car, has told has been told that two of his killers may be eligible to leave prison from September under Labour's early release prison scheme.

[00:19:54]Under this scheme, serious offenders, including killers, rapists, child groomers, etc., will qualify for automatic release after serving half their sentences rather than two-thirds, provided they've not seriously breached prison rules while serving time. The home secretary, Shabana Mahmood, and the defense secretary, Wes Streeting, have have both apologized after being caught on a hot mic joking about this. Have a listen to this. If you listen closely, you can hear Wes Streeting say, "You know, he's the enemy now," referring to the new justice secretary, Alex Norris, adding that he wants to let them all out, and then they both laugh.

[00:20:24]>> How are you?

[00:20:25]>> You know he's You know he's the enemy now. He's the justice secretary.

[00:20:27]>> No, he's not.

[00:20:30]NO, HE'S NOT.

[00:20:38]>> IT WAS QUITE HARD TO HEAR EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, BUT IN IN POSTS on X, both both Wes Streeting and Shabana Mahmood have said have have have apologized, and they they've said they hoped it's clear that there was no ill intent. Andy Burnham was asked whether whether he thought any of it was acceptable. Here's what he said.

[00:20:52]>> No, it's not. And certainly, that's been acknowledged, and apologies have been made. On the broader issue, I I feel for the family. It's an appalling crime that was uh committed. The main perpetrator uh will not be uh subject to any uh early release.

[00:21:13]>> Robert, um a hot mic is a big deal, but early release is a bigger deal.

[00:21:17]>> Yeah, I mean, I feel for the family as well, especially when you see that the the uh the note that that they got that the mother got from the Ministry of Justice saying that how this event may have impacted your life or some some some in really kind of measly like your son getting murdered.

[00:21:35]>> Yeah, according to yeah, to write impacted her life.

[00:21:37]>> 7 years is uh convicted 1919, they get out in September. Most of us I think would think 7 years is not enough >> No.

[00:21:45]>> for that for that crime uh especially uh being a serving police officer.

[00:21:50]You've got it that has to be uh deterred in the most uh severe way. Obviously, you've got a problem with overcrowding in prisons, and I was just looking at some of the stats. The problem is that about you say get the white-collar people out, but there there are hardly any white-collar uh criminals in prison anymore. I don't think there's about 500 people are in prison for fraud.

[00:22:09]Uh most of them are sex offenses, violence, drugs, robbery, and theft, and that is about that that's the the lion's share of it.

[00:22:20]And and obviously, in a perfect world, you don't want any of those people coming out after half their sentence.

[00:22:25]Uh The other interesting information I saw was that some that Leeds is the most overcrowded prison in Britain at 172% capacity. But then you've got other prisons which are only 60 or 70% capacity. So somewhere and then obviously, there's different bands of security and so forth, but somewhere it looks like somebody's not being massively intelligent in terms of use the the current use of resources they have got.

[00:22:47]The other point is that 10,000 87,000 prisoners in Britain at the moment.

[00:22:51]10,000 nearly 8 11,000 I think foreign nationals.

[00:22:54]>> Mhm.

[00:22:55]>> And I don't think it's all sort of reformatory to say why can't they be go and serve their sentence where they come from.

[00:23:02]>> Well, cuz there's always the danger if they get to go to serve the sentence where they come from, they get let out where they come from.

[00:23:05]>> Yeah.

[00:23:06]>> And they just they just they just sent them home for free despite having committed a >> Is that the Is that Is that the reason?

[00:23:10]Because a lot Because a lot of people >> reasons then those reciprocal agreements. So, when you go to these prisons, you know, I've been I spent a lot of time in places like Wandsworth and Wormwood Scrubs. And when you go there, you know, they have got them but they It's incredibly difficult to send somebody back as we know. And also they don't quite often that they don't even have their passport anymore.

[00:23:25]>> Right. Is it that we just don't trust their justice system? I mean, like 11% of those of that of those 10,000 are from Albania. Now, is it that we just don't trust the Albanian justice system?

[00:23:33]We think that they'll go back there and they'll be a bit of a money will change hands and they'll get and they'll be they'll >> Very possibly. Honestly, honestly, I don't know. I mean, that that that does that that does seem plausible that you want people to be cuz I mean, you you you see this argument working in both directions. When people when British people are jailed in the United States, for example, there's a clamor to bring them home.

[00:23:50]>> Yeah.

[00:23:50]>> Yeah.

[00:23:50]>> Um so, um yeah, I mean, but early release generally, Alice, it's a it's a headache for the government that's not going to go away. There there will be numerous scandals again and again like there always >> are with schemes like this.

[00:24:01]>> Yeah, I mean, I think that all the sex abuse um offenders that that that's very tricky. When I was in Wandsworth, I remember going round and there were people who'd been there uh for a very long time and they get no education.

[00:24:09]They're locked up for 23 hours a day and they didn't have anywhere to go and they left and most of them had very few skills. But I was thinking, you know, you know, we need to do more for them.

[00:24:17]You you were sort of very empathetic.

[00:24:19]And then I we went into the sex offenders unit. And and they were talking about early release. And as a woman, I was thinking, you've got to be joking. And and it's That's it's so it's very personal to you, isn't it? You know, you just think, I don't want these people on the streets. I want I want them locked up in here.

[00:24:32]>> Yeah.

[00:24:32]>> And if they're out early, you just feel um they've also probably, you know, you know, they haven't been uh given any rehabilitation.

[00:24:39]Uh they I don't really feel that that they'd probably change that much most of them. It's not like it was I mean, in Germany, they cut the number from 80,000. They we had 60,000 in Britain 60,000 in Germany in the 1980s and they went down to 40,000 and we went up to 80,000. And that was because we thought prison worked. And actually, it's worked better in Germany. And I think, you know, we we should do much more not to get people into prison, but once they're there, they've got to actually serve most of it.

[00:25:02]>> I agree, and it's not as if people I cuz I I approach this thinking, "Oh, it's all You get the white-collar people out, get the people on short sentences out."

[00:25:09]But most of those hardly anybody in there who's serving under a year or so, and there's hardly anybody in there for white-collar. I think maybe the one we've got to look at is drugs. Because if you want to you want to keep the sex offenders in, obviously. You want to keep the violent people in. You want to keep the robbers in.

[00:25:21]>> But even >> But 25% of people are in prison for drugs offenses, not necess- not because they've been >> But even >> even then, they're they're not they're not in because they're addicts. They're not in they're in because they were they were picked up for possession. They were in cuz they're involved in in the drugs trade, which is which is organized crime, >> Yeah.

[00:25:36]>> is and quite often you'll have you'll >> And county lines then involve quite a lot of children and you know, but you're getting people hooked. It's >> maybe not all of them. But maybe not But maybe not all of them, yeah.

[00:25:45]>> Yeah, and also women's prisons, we never look at those, but actually they have fewer offenders than they're only like 1 and 1/2% of of of prisoners who are locked up, but they're But I do think we have to look at that because most of those are easier to see through the system and to release, and some of them are still there for, you know, issues like shoplifting.

[00:26:02]>> Oh, and also, you know, keep them inside, and then you get to deal with rough sleeping as well, as as previously discussed. Let's swivel on a sixpence and talk about something very, very different, cuz I want to talk about number 10's TikTok tone shift. The official number 10 account posted this on Andy Burnham's first day.

[00:26:19]>> This week, a hot new bombshell enters the villa.

[00:26:26]>> Oh. I mean, it goes on and on and on and on. To paint a picture, that was Andy Burnham walking into number 10 to the same voiceover they used to play when a bombshell enters the villa in Love Island. Alice, is this weird? This is weird.

[00:26:37]>> You know what actually I thought was extraordinary was today on the front pages we've got this picture of Prince George age 13, and he's really grown up.

[00:26:44]He's in a suit with a shirt, and he looks like he's about 60.

[00:26:47]>> I see where you're going.

[00:26:48]>> you get the Prime Minister doing a TikTok that kind of would be a 13-year-old's Tik Tok? I mean it's kind of extraordinary. And actually I don't really like it. I don't want to own it.

[00:26:56]That's what's being projected. That's what people are seeing around the world.

[00:26:59]That's not really what we want from our Prime Minister, is it?

[00:27:02]>> Robert?

[00:27:03]>> Yeah, I don't like it. It's I mean you've got to be very careful if you're trading I mean Kemmy Badenoch said he was wearing a pair of eyelashes and a black and a black t-shirt and he said "Oh no, no, no, I'm much more I'm a man of substance." So I But if you're saying you're kind of saying "Hey, I'm a I'm a I'm a sexy sexy dad." Which is hot new bombshell.

[00:27:22]Partly It's immodest.

[00:27:27]And it's also just not very serious, is it? It's not very serious at all.

[00:27:30]>> Well, he's got this woman called Abby Tomlinson who's doing his Tik Toks and she's great. I mean she started off with Ed Miliband. She was a complete fan of his and she helped him.

[00:27:38]>> So people forget but back in the Ed Miliband leading the opposition day, although he was electorally something of a disaster, didn't win an election arguably he should have won. Among young people there was this whole Ed Miliband cult which sounds like an old sort of like a like a joke even to say it but he was he was massive online, wasn't he Alice?

[00:27:56]>> And Abby was the one that kind of led that and then that's why she then got into politics. She is now doing it for the Prime Minister and she's great.

[00:28:02]Although I actually thought Keir Starmer did a Tik Tok yesterday and it was probably the best one he's ever done.

[00:28:07]It's It's kind of extraordinary. It's him sort of driving off into the distance. I reckon one of his kids did it actually. It's not so on him. Once you've left >> It's sort of Thelma and Louise style isn't it?

[00:28:16]>> style.

[00:28:16]>> Oh that I thought that was a joke.

[00:28:17]>> Uh no, it's not.

[00:28:18]>> You mean with his with his face in a super imposed on the right?

[00:28:21]>> with the and it's And actually in a funny way I kind of think once you've left office you can do what you want but when you're at number 10 you need to take it seriously.

[00:28:28]>> And it's hard for me cuz I'm not on Tik Tok and I think I mean obviously this woman is Abby and she's 28. I think she started the Miliband thing when she was 17.

[00:28:37]And that's what you need. It's like the woman the White House woman what's her name Caroline Levitt.

[00:28:42]>> Yeah, she's very similar, isn't she?

[00:28:44]>> She's similar. She's like she was 24 I think whatever. I mean that's what you need to get to young voters, then I sort of say I acknowledge my age and I shrug my shoulders and I say, "Well, I don't really approve of it, but yeah."

[00:28:55]>> I mean, we've we've we've got used to over the last few years. Like so, Nigel Farage sort of rampages across social media. He spreads He spreads everywhere.

[00:29:01]>> And he he has all He does cameos. He apparently does 20 cameos a day.

[00:29:04]>> Do what still, really? Yeah.

[00:29:06]>> So, they're paid for.

[00:29:07]>> No, that's good money.

[00:29:08]>> Yeah, she's good money.

[00:29:08]>> generation are going to want Love Island That is kind of creeping in.

[00:29:13]>> something else amusing but on the TikTok on the I don't necessarily think it makes any difference. They just say, "Oh, yeah, look at that." And then on the on they go.

[00:29:18]>> I guess it's the difference between whether you've just It's bluntly whether you've heard of whoever it is or whether you haven't heard of whoever it is. And so, if you've got, you know, Kier Starmer was just a sort of faceless nobody, whereas at least they know who Andy Burnham is. They recognize him.

[00:29:29]>> Selling a 56-year-old on his looks to a bunch of bunch of kids >> It's kind of weird. It's a bit creepy, isn't >> Yeah, she's a bit creepy, Dad.

[00:29:36]>> Mhm.

[00:29:36]>> Yes.

[00:29:37]>> But you got I mean, these things these sort of these these cultures, they also they also they they develop in ways that no one can quite understand or plan.

[00:29:44]Remember Jeremy Corbyn? Jeremy Corbyn was huge across social media. You could tell he himself had no grasp at all of what his image was like.

[00:29:51]>> But he was a stock character. He was magic grandpa, wasn't he? I think somebody called him that. And so, he was a sort of uh He was a stock Yeah, he was a recognizable. What Andy Burnham is, I'm not entirely sure.

[00:30:02]>> Yeah, maybe the problem is that he is trying to be in in control of it and he's not letting it develop organically.

[00:30:06]Cuz if you if you you can imagine if he developed if there was this culture of hot old man that spread across TikTok and he wasn't himself pushing it, then that would work extremely well, you know.

[00:30:14]>> Yeah. When you doing it yourself >> When you're doing it yourself >> You try and give yourself a nickname.

[00:30:18]It's No, everyone's got everyone Everyone's got to call me Hawk.

[00:30:21]>> Ace. Ace. You may call me Ace. Yeah.

[00:30:23]>> Uh you know, go go go >> happy, though. Maybe she's doing it on her own.

[00:30:26]>> In an early job, my first job, in fact, that So, there's a joke in Red Dwarf, the sitcom, about people trying to give themselves their own nickname. And I think it's Rimmer. He pretends his nickname was Ace. We're having this conversation in the office about what our nicknames had been at school. And I said, referencing that joke, "My nickname was Ace." And to this day, I have a colleague who I worked with there who I'm still good friends with who still calls me Ace in a non-ironic fashion.

[00:30:46]>> Your nickname at school was Ace?

[00:30:47]>> No, it wasn't. That was the joke.

[00:30:50]Of course it wasn't. Should have been.

[00:30:52]Wasn't.

[00:30:53]>> I was going to say that would be cool.

[00:30:54]>> All right, let's get to it. Uh Robert, you've been writing about men's bottoms.

[00:30:57]>> Yeah, this Yeah.

[00:30:57]>> Explain yourself.

[00:30:58]>> Well, apparently bottoms are >> big.

[00:31:01]>> big. It used to be with a guy, if you want to get in shape, you got the six-pack, you got the biceps. And in as much as you thought about your bottom at all, you it had to be sort of as probably as small as possible.

[00:31:11]>> This is This is certainly my my bottom agenda, I'd say. Yes.

[00:31:14]>> I mean, I've been going to the gym for a long time, and that was it. I mean, that was what you, you know, you do maybe >> never really given my bottom much thought in the gym context.

[00:31:20]>> and you certainly didn't think of it as trying to enlarge it.

[00:31:23]>> Mhm.

[00:31:24]>> But now, yeah, bottoms are all the rage. I was talking to one one of the guys I interviewed for that piece was a a personal trainer who works in the Cotswolds with a lot of >> small-bottomed men.

[00:31:34]>> No, big-bottomed men.

[00:31:35]>> Well, big bottom now.

[00:31:37]>> High-net-worth individuals is which is what we now call rich people in the Cotswolds, and they are all in tremendous competition with each other to have a bigger bottom.

[00:31:44]>> Yeah.

[00:31:45]>> Apparently, the the good the thing about having >> High-net-worth, high-butt girth.

[00:31:48]>> High-butt girth. Very good Well, wordsmith.

[00:31:51]That's fantastic. Get you a column tomorrow, and I'll buy you dinner.

[00:31:55]Uh You apparently with a six-pack with a six-pack, you can cheat because with a six-pack, you can We've all got a six-pack lurking there. It's just hidden. So, all you do is diet and dehydrate, and uh there it is.

[00:32:06]>> Mhm.

[00:32:07]>> But and so, people who into this kind of thing know that. But with a You can't cheat on a big bum.

[00:32:12]>> Yeah, and also, English men famously just didn't have good bums, did they? I mean, they just don't have high bums.

[00:32:16]It's like they >> You say that like this is something I'd been aware of. What Go on.

[00:32:19]>> Well, they just don't. I mean, they just Yeah, they just anatomically, they just sag more, don't they, actually?

[00:32:23]>> When you go for a nice bum, then >> Kim Kardashian. And what's weird to me is you're all trying to copy her.

[00:32:27]>> Am I?

[00:32:27]>> It's quite a feminine thing.

[00:32:28]>> Well, it's another example, as I say in the thing and in the piece, it's another example of sort of the feminization of this space.

[00:32:33]>> is.

[00:32:34]>> Because there one your >> maxing and all that stuff, and you're putting on your the makeup. I mean, you can see obviously you're fully made up now, and And this is this is all this is all natural me.

[00:32:46]Men used when men Men used to own the Men used to own the sort of strength and conditioning space.

[00:32:51]>> Yeah.

[00:32:51]>> And they thought that bums was a was a was a girly thing, didn't bother. But since it's all been digital, women, you know, people can vote with their feet, and and and the the the female idea of having a >> Yeah.

[00:33:04]>> a bottom, you know, a decent bottom, has now has >> Mhm.

[00:33:07]>> kicked over into men as well.

[00:33:09]>> We just wanted you to work hard, but >> Do you know what? I'm going to sit this one out. Um Robert, in in in fur- further body envy, you've also you've also got serious arm envy >> No, I don't have arm envy.

[00:33:18]>> No, that's exaggerating a bit, but I saw the Odyssey last week. Matt Damon's got I just thought well done, Matt. I mean, Matt's only I mean, Matt's 56. I think pushing 56. And yeah, he looked good in Bourne, and he looked good in Invictus, but he was in his 30s then, and now he's 56, and he's he's got himself in really good shape for uh I mean, being an actor on these days, a lot of it is about going to the gym, isn't it?

[00:33:37]>> His diet is insane, as well. So, he's he cuts out absolutely everything in his diet, and then he's just And he doesn't eat any wheat. I don't know why I know all this. It's like >> And again, it's the one of those things where >> It's kind of fascinating how much effort he's put into this.

[00:33:47]>> And women used to be just you know, actresses who had to were there for their looks, and now, you know, guys have prolonged their career by serious gym work.

[00:33:57]>> Yeah, but I'm sure the Greeks probably did, too. I mean, kind of weirdly, it's not >> They're all dead by the time they're 56.

[00:34:02]>> Yeah, I mean >> But you do think they were putting in the work, weren't they? And we know that's where it came from. That actually the Greek men were really into their bodies.

[00:34:08]>> Well, not if you're in the sea and you're on a boat for eight years flapping around in the Aegean, you're going to lose serious weight. Is there a Matt Damon the only man whose arms you're slightly jealous of, Robert?

[00:34:17]>> Statham as well. I mean, Statham is the goat. Jason Statham is a obviously a fine actor.

[00:34:21]>> Anyone closer to home? Closer in the room right now?

[00:34:23]>> Oh, no, we got back on that again. We can need to put that to bed, Hugo, cuz since that happened, I've I've really >> This is what Robert This is what Robert is bringing up on his own account, it seems, the time that I bit him in an arm wrestle.

[00:34:33]>> Yeah, but that was that was you know you're living on past glories there Hugo.

[00:34:36]>> and and will for will forever until we go again.

[00:34:38]>> Bit like Odysseus mucking around you know pulling out Troy.

[00:34:41]>> Alice, I'm going to I'm sorry I'm going to ask this question but bums or arms which are more important?

[00:34:45]>> Oh arms definitely.

[00:34:46]>> Right.

[00:34:47]>> Yeah cuz you can't I mean I bums I do think it's a bit of a bummer.

[00:34:49]I just think >> To have a big bum.

[00:34:51]>> learn how to do a press up for the times cuz I still can't do press ups which is pretty bad.

[00:34:56]>> be I'll teach you next next next week right here in the studio.

[00:34:59]>> Maybe I'm off next >> week. We will we will have you both doing press ups. We'll have the Robert Crampton press up school. What I just where this conversation has gone where it always gone where it always goes. Uh Robert Crampton Alice Thompson thank you very much indeed. This is Hugo Rifkind here on Times Radio.