The Glory of Losing Your Head

Added: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]In our latest Q&A, someone asked me a question about decapitation and the symbolism of decapitation. And it made me go back into my memory to some very old conversations that I had with my brother Matio Pjo a long time ago where we looked into and were interpreting the uh text about Joseph in the book of Genesis where he interprets the dreams of these two prisoners. It's a very strange text with some very powerful and and subtle symbolism in it and it is definitely related to the symbolism of decapitation. And so I want to start with that text. We're going to look into it. We're going to read it and see, you know, how relevant and how it shows beautiful subtle biblical symbolism. And then we're going to show you how this symbolism carries through appears in other places in scripture. And then ultimately, as often gets resolved in Christ. Uh and in the end, we're also going to see one of the strangest saint stories you've ever heard, which is the story of Saint Deni of Paris, who carried his own head while he was preaching. And so, uh, here we go.

[00:01:10]This is Jonathan Pio. Welcome to the symbolic world.

[00:01:24]Hello everyone. There is about only one week left until the symbolic world summit. I am definitely getting super excited about this to see all my friends, to see all the people uh that I admire. Uh Father Josiah is going to be there, Mary Harrington, of course, Deacon Sarapim, Heather Pington. We're also going to have Kel Zeldon, Annie Crawford, Deacon Nicholas Kotar is going to do some wonderful things for us. I mean, it's just going to be amazing. And there will be all these people that aren't on the roster, but that you've seen on the channel that you'll be exciting to see. And we're even going to have this strange Did you know? Do you if you're my age, you remember the Hansen brothers? Uh they had that famous song in the 90s. Well, two of them are going to be coming and even playing music for us. And so this going to be such a fun time. And because so many people have asked us, we decided again to do an online version. So if you cannot come to the summit, uh go to the symbolicworld.com or symbolicworldsummit.com and you will be able to find online tickets. It's $100 and you'll be able to participate to ask questions in the Q&A and also be there will be ways to exchange with the other people that are watching online. And so I cannot wait to see you whether in person or virtually at the symbolic world summit next week.

[00:02:33]So we start I think at Genesis 40 where we read this story. As you know the situation is that Joseph has been arrested because the Podifar's wife has accused him of abusing her which of course he is innocent of. But when he finds himself in prison, he immediately uh becomes like the star of the prison.

[00:02:50]He helps out. He becomes the the head of the of the prison itself. Uh and there's this very strange moment when two prisoners are sent to prison. And so we're going to read this right now. And so it says, "Sometime later, the king's cup bearer and baker offended their master, the king of Egypt. Pharaoh was angry with his two officers, the chief cupbearer and the chief baker, and imprisoned them in the house of the captain of the guard, the same prison where Joseph was confined. The captain of the guard, assigned them to Joseph, and he became their personal attendant.

[00:03:25]After they had been in custody for some time, both of these men, the Egyptian king's cupbearer and baker, who were being held in prison, had a dream on the same night. And each dream had its own meaning. When Joseph came to them in the morning, he saw that they were distraught. So he asked the officials of Pharaoh who were in custody with him in his master's house, why are your faces so downcast today?

[00:03:50]We both had dreams, they replied, but there is no one to interpret them. Then Joseph said to them, don't interpretations belong to God? Tell me your dreams. So the chief coper told Joseph his dream. In my dream there was a vine before me, and on the vine there were three branches. As it budded, it blossomed, its blossoms opened, and its clustered ripened into grapes. Pharaoh's cup was in my hand, and I took the grapes, squeezed them into his cup, and placed the cup in his hand. Joseph replied, "This is the interpretation.

[00:04:22]The three branches are three days.

[00:04:24]Within 3 days, Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore your position. You will put Pharaoh's cup in his hand, just as you did when you were his cup bearer.

[00:04:32]But when it goes well for you, please remember me and show me kindness by mentioning me to Pharaoh that he might bring me out of this prison. For I was kidnapped from the land of the Hebrews, and even here I have done nothing for which they should have put me in this dungeon. When the chief baker saw that the interpretation was favorable, he said to Joseph, I too had a dream. There were three baskets of white bread on my head. In the top basket were all sorts of baked goods for Pharaoh, but the birds were eating them out of the basket on my head. Joseph replied, "This is the interpretation. The three baskets are three days. Within 3 days, Pharaoh will lift off your head and hang you on a tree."

[00:05:13]I hope you're paying attention, everyone.

[00:05:16]Then the birds will eat the flesh of your body. On the third day, which was Pharaoh's birthday, he held up a feast for all his officials. And in their presence he lifted up the heads of the chief cup bearer and the chief baker.

[00:05:29]Pharaoh restored the chief cup bearer to his position, but that he once again placed the cup in Pharaoh's hands, but Pharaoh hanged the chief baker just as Joseph had described to them in his interpretation.

[00:05:42]The chief coar, however, did not remember Joseph. He forgot all about him.

[00:05:48]All right. And so what is going on here?

[00:05:52]Now, there's a lot of things to pay attention to in order to get the uh the fullness of this story. Now, the first thing to pay attention to is the image of the chief cup bearer and the chief um the chief baker. Now, you have to remember that the chief in this context is the head, right? So, you have the head cup bearer and the head um baker who find themselves into prison. They have a dream, right? And in this dream, they see two things. The first one sees that he is uh restored to the pharaoh.

[00:06:32]And it's described as if the pharaoh lifts up his head and brings him back into the into his service. And the second one, the baker, it also says that the pharaoh lifts up his head uh but hangs him on a tree. And if you look at the imagery of the baker, you'll see that he has the basket on his head and then you see that the birds come and they eat the ba the bread that is on his head. And so you can see there's an interesting play in words which is that in both cases you have the head two heads the head of the the the wine and the head of the bread and both of them are lifted up by the pharaoh one to their salvation and one to their destruction. One a return to service and one to being uh you know broken. And so what's going on? What's happening? Now, of course, you've also noticed that this is there's a strange eucharistic symbolism going on here. Why is it bread and wine? You know, why why is it uh the the imagery of the Eucharist? And this is of course related to how all of this symbolism is going to be resolved in Christ.

[00:07:43]But in ca in this case, what's important to notice is I've often mentioned in the past how the symbolism of heaven can be double. That is sometimes heaven can appear as that which you could say uh connects the hierarchy right and makes everything in line with what it comes from above. But sometimes heaven appears as a raptor as you know the principle of heaven coming down and picking up what has been is there and pulling it back up into heaven. And uh and you see that in in several images here of course is the idea of the birds. So the birds come down and they take what the person has done and and lift them up in the negative sense. And so now what's interesting is that in the the symbolism you see that the baker is hung on a tree, right? That he is hanging but which this is of course the imagery of the crucifixion. That is we we usually don't realize that when the Old Testament talks about someone being hung on a tree. This is a symbolism that will go into the symbolism of Christ and we will interpret uh Christ symbolism in this in disguise. And so, but because this idea of the birds that come and kind of eat the bread that's on the top of its head, you also have this weird idea of the decapitation. And the decapitation comes in the imagery of the dream itself. And so, of course, one of the aspects of the dream, this is something that of course my brother Matsu talks about both in his new book uh that he's that he's coming out, he's mentioned it several times in podcast. I know he's he's already mentioned it in his first book, which is that sleep and dream are in some ways an image of decapitation. Uh and that is also what death is. That is death is the separation of the of the head and the body. And so the lifting up of the head can be the separation of the head and the body. And but the lifting up of the head can also be a kind of glorification. Uh this is not completely brought together yet in this imagery.

[00:09:43]But you see that in the case of the of the of the cup bearer that the lifting up of his head is to his glory. Whereas in the sense of the uh the baker, the lifting up of his head is to his destruction. That is it's the separation of head and body in a manner that will uh right that will lead to his destruction. Just like when you go into a dream and you're separated, the dream can be two things. Like in some ways, the dream can be a place where you receive a vision from God, but it can also be a place where, you know, you lose yourself. It's just chaos. Nothing makes sense. It's just it just things that don't that don't make any sense.

[00:10:20]And most of the time that's what it is.

[00:10:21]That's why the fathers warn us about being careful about interpreting dreams.

[00:10:25]But even in the fathers, they know that that sometimes God can use this kind of separation of head and body to reveal something very very uh powerful, right?

[00:10:34]Something very clear, something like an image that is even stronger than the type of image that you can get just by paying attention to life in in the everyday. And so you get this very strange image of these this relationship between these two aspects of the raising up of the head, right? So it's like the head gets raised up and then the body gets abandoned or the get the the the head gets raised up and then the body is glorified. Right? Because this is of course also these two aspects you could say of the body which is this this aspect of the bread which is one aspect of the body that is the you know the fleshy aspect and then the wine which is another aspect of the body which is the uh the blood aspect or the liquid aspect of the body. And so these are these two kind of these two kind of elements that are that are being shown. Now, there would be a lot more to say about this specific story. There is a lot going on that we could talk about, but I just wanted to leave it at that for there.

[00:11:28]And I want you to think of that pattern.

[00:11:29]Now, now the first question you want to ask yourself is, do I see this pattern in other places? Are there other places in scripture where I see a similar pattern?

[00:11:40]And there are several other places. I will mention one in particular, and this is in the book of Esther. In the book of Esther you have very much this symbolism which is on the one hand you have Mori and Haman right and Mori is to be hung on the tree right he's to be cast on the tree and Haman is you know that to be glorified by the king for for finding who is betraying him and in the story of Haman and Morai what happens is that they switch right they flip which is because of the revelation of Esther Mori is lifted up and then Haman is also lifted up onto the tree uh hung on the tree and and and dies in that way.

[00:12:21]Right? So you have these two kind of images of the of the hung on the tree as a negative and then the this like h let's say lifted up in glory and so there are many other versions maybe you can try to think of them yourself in terms of where in the bible you have this uh symbolism but what's important to notice is the manner in which Christ smashes it together. Christ always smashes this symbolism together. And so you could ask yourself the question, which one is Christ? Is Christ the baker who is who is who is lifted up and hung on the tree and crucified, you know, or is he the cup bearer who is lifted up in glory, right? In service of the of the high king. And the answer of course in Christianity is that he is both. He's both at the same time. And this is one of this is the greatest mystery of Christianity is that Christianity in some ways it is a transformation of the possibility of death. Right? It is the possibility of death becoming a form of glory. Now we see this of course in the story of Christ himself and this is also related to why Christ gives the bread and the wine. There are other examples in reasons in in in the Old Testament why Christ gives the bread and the wine.

[00:13:46]Uh if you think a little bit about um the way the fact that it's bread and wine and also that it's his flesh and blood. I've talked about how this joins the symbolism of Abel with the symbolism of Cain. But it also does join these two aspects of the story of Joseph which is the head cup bearer and the head baker where now both are offered together and uh they're both to the death and they are both to the glory right they're both to the the the flesh and the blood that sacrifice and brings to death but then also the bread and the wine which is eaten and nourishes you right so I talked about how in the two cases of the two sides You have one aspect of the elevation which leads to separation of head and body in the negative way and in the other way it actually leads to a kind of ele like a glorification of the body right or a participation of the body in that in that elevation. And the surprise of Christ is of course he shows the paradox of how the way in which you encounter death can transform uh one into the other or can let's say join them together in their symbolism. And so what this leads to is of course uh interesting images.

[00:15:01]Now the first image that will come to mind is of course the image of the ascension. Now in the image of the ascension what we see is we see the head of the body going up into heaven and the body remaining below. Right? Just in the the idea of a kind of decapitation or lifting up of the head. But of course in the in the case of the ascension the lifting up of the body and the body lifting up of the head and the body remaining below actually in some way stretches the body. Think about it that way is that it it actually makes for a bigger body. It means that the the body is now fully kind of connected to the head. There's a kind of glorification that happens in that lifting up. We already had intimations of this powerful symbolism in the story of John the Baptist of St. John the foreigner. And so I kept the image of the ascension next to it. So you can kind of think about this. Now, one of the things Christ says about St. John the Baptist, he says that he is Elijah. And what's you know what's interesting about Elijah is of course Elijah goes up into heaven.

[00:16:08]But you know, St. John the Baptist doesn't at least at the outset doesn't look like he goes up into heaven. But I think that really in the story of St. John the Baptist, he does ultimately follow that pattern. But it is his head.

[00:16:22]That is in that story the decapitation of St. John is his glorification. That is the losing of his head is in some ways an image of his head going up into heaven. Very similar to the to the notion of how Elijah went up into heaven. And you know one of my favorite versions of these images is of course images of the head of St. John the Baptist where St. John the Baptist both appears with his head and without his head. And I think that this is really the paradox that is that is being shown in Christianity, which is the idea of the possibility of purposefully sacrificing yourself of of purposefully, you could say, losing your head in a manner that will actually make it more real or make it or glorify the whole thing and uh will in some ways connect things together in a way that um that weren't connected before. And this is stories of course in all the stories of the martyrs you see these crazy stories where you know and this is the what the person in the Q&A asked is like why is it in the stories of the martyrs you always have them being tortured being tortured being tortured and then finally the only way in which they're able to be killed is for their head to be cut off and uh and I think that this is what's going on is that when the person cuts the head off of the saint what they don't realize that they're doing is that they're lifting up their head. They think that they're separating their head in the way that the baker was killed and that the birds destroyed and that they're the authority. They think they can remove the head of the saint by being the authority because it's always like a king or someone who's in authority who does it. But what they're actually doing is ultimately they're kind of stretching the person out, you could say, so that their glory becomes bigger and their the authority of the person being decapitated actually becomes bigger than what it was before, you know, and the power of that person becomes bigger than what it was before.

[00:18:22]And so you see this weird really joining of the symbolism of the positive and the negative. And the very strangest version of this is in the story of Sanden of Paris. The story of Sandin of Paris is is wild, right? So the story is that of course he is an early French saint for the early French martyr. And the story is that he was brought onto the hill this hill known as Mak in Paris where now there's a giant church there that was built. He was brought he was brought which it mak seems to suggest that it's the mount of martyrs and they brought sand up on the hill and they cut his head off on the top of the hill and then the miracle is that he picked up his head and then walked down the mountain preaching until he reached the site that would become his barrel which is now Sandin of Paris the cathed the basilica of Sanden in Paris. And so this is actually in this version you actually see some of the deepest symbolism being brought together in a way to help you understand what it is that the Christians are suggesting. And so this saint by going to his own martyrdom, he without the king that's killing him doesn't realize what he's doing. He's bringing him to the top of the hill.

[00:19:38]He's bringing him to the place of ascension, to the place of revelation of God. He cuts this person's head off and then you could say that he becomes like a Moses, right? That his elevation is both his death, but it's also the revelation of God in the world. It's like he receives the law in that moment where his head is cut off and his head goes into heaven, you could say, but it doesn't disconnect. And this is of course the paradox. I'm going to keep repeating it, but this is the paradox of sacrifice, right? And so he picks up his head and then he preaches the law. You could say as Moses did coming down the mountain in his glory. Coming down the mountain with the pattern of heaven even though his head was cut off or because his head was cut off to his glory and he comes down and he preaches uh to the people. I imagine people believing as he's walking down becoming a Christian.

[00:20:31]And if you don't believe that this is what's going on, you know, sometimes you can look at accidents of history and uh they can kind of reveal this to you in even more powerful ways is that Saint Deni of Paris is a particular saint. But in the 9th century he starts to be conflated with another Deni with another Dianisis who is of course Dianisis the Aropagite. So in French tradition Deni of Paris and Dianis the Aropagite are the same person. They are the same saint. And isn't it interesting that Dianisis the Aropagite in his text in his tradition is of course the one that talks about divine hierarchy that talks about the proper ordering of things of how the divine hierarchy lays itself out and how it reflects itself in the ecclesial hierarchy of the bishop and the the clerics that that manifests itself in the world. that he in some ways laid out an entire ontology that shows how heaven and earth connect in this beautiful fractal hierarchy. And isn't it very interesting that the character that in France that would kind of be fused with Dianisis would be this character that had his head cut off. So despite the fact that he had his head cut off, it is actually in kind of separating the head and the body that revealed the connection between the head and the body that showed the relationship of heaven and earth and and made it possible for him to come down the mountain to uh preach the gospel.

[00:21:57]And so this is you know all of this is difficult to understand because it represents the deepest you could say mystery of Christianity which is how Christianity doesn't come here to completely make us avoid bodily suffering to make us avoid you know the fact that this body will die and decompose. Um, but in many ways it also shows us how to die and how to be how to sacrifice ourselves in a way that although to the outside looks like you are letting go that you're actually connecting things together. And so this was just a small little meditation on on the the notion of sand of decapitation of hanging on a tree all of this and there would be so much more to say.

[00:22:42]Hopefully it will provoke some meditations in you and uh you can you can even share some of that with the people down in the comments. Thanks for your attention everyone. Don't forget you can always go to the symbolic world.com and you can join us. There are free ways to join. There are also ways you can support us and for those who support us you get a free uh you get free access to our community, a free extra video, a chance to ask questions in advance and all kinds of other perks that you can look into. And so thanks everyone for your attention and I will talk to you very soon. Bye-bye.