THE ONE WORD FROM MASHABA THAT MADE THE JUDGE SLAP HIM

[00:00:00]things that you don't waste you don't end up wasting your time um in conducting an operation that that in fact is um is a negative. I think that's the language that you've used. It's a negative. Surely you would have requested more than the registration number of the truck. You would have wanted confirmation from him that there are drugs in that container.

[00:00:30]Otherwise, your earlier statement that you did not want to waste your time would not make sense. It only makes sense um if one if you say, "Yes, I did ask for confirmation that there [clears throat] are drugs in that vehicle in that container."

[00:00:51]Surely.

[00:00:54]You would have asked him to confirm there are drugs in there.

[00:00:59]>> But, chair and commissioners, here here is the information.

[00:01:07]Mashaba, there is a truck >> [clears throat] >> from Durban.

[00:01:19]The truck is loaded with drugs.

[00:01:26]>> Yes.

[00:01:27]>> He he wouldn't just say such an information. I don't know how he confirms that. I don't know.

[00:01:37]It's the information he is now giving to me.

[00:01:40]Here is the I mean, there's a truck coming from Durban to Joburg.

[00:01:45]>> Yeah.

[00:01:46]>> Transporting drugs.

[00:01:48]>> Yes.

[00:01:49]>> I said, "Okay."

[00:01:54]It's possibility that be on standby for this thing tomorrow.

[00:02:06]Then I said to him, "No problem, if you say so."

[00:02:10]Please confirm that it is positive.

[00:02:14]>> Positive as in there are drugs in the container or the truck is coming up.

[00:02:20]>> The truck is coming up. Remember I'm waiting for the confirmation to say it will land on Friday.

[00:02:30]>> Okay.

[00:02:31]>> So, if he says sharp, no problem.

[00:02:37]Then on Friday he calls in the morning and say, "The truck has landed. Please come."

[00:02:45]To me it's it's enough. That's all I know. The truck he was talking about yesterday is drugs.

[00:02:56]>> You know You know that it has drugs in it because that's what he told >> According Yes.

[00:03:00]>> Okay.

[00:03:01]>> So, it has landed.

[00:03:04]Please come.

[00:03:05]>> Okay.

[00:03:06]>> I say, "Sharp, where are you?"

[00:03:08]I'm in Yellow Jersey. "Kuja, where is Yellow Jersey?"

[00:03:11]No, let me send you location.

[00:03:14]>> Okay.

[00:03:15]>> I get the location.

[00:03:19]When I get to him he gives me the details of the truck.

[00:03:25]The number plate Was it the number plate or Yeah, the number plate. Here is the truck.

[00:03:32]I said, "Oh, okay."

[00:03:35]On my way there, I'm already calling to say it is positive.

[00:03:42]If If If you If you are available, please come. I'm calling a person in Albert.

[00:03:52]So >> Yes.

[00:03:55]thank you chief. Thank you for answering the question that I was asking. Thank you.

[00:03:59]>> I'm just uh Your response about what you considered positive confuses me.

[00:04:08]>> [snorts] >> Can you explain the circumstances under which you could possibly have wasted your time that is leaving the things that you were doing. Under what circumstances could that possibly have happened then?

[00:04:28]In the context of what you've just explained to Commissioner Baloyi.

[00:04:36]I'm basing this on your on the answers you gave yesterday.

[00:04:44]>> [clears throat] >> What is the exact question?

[00:04:46]>> Confirm confirm that this is positive.

[00:04:53]Because I do not want to leave the things that I'm doing and therefore waste my time.

[00:05:02]Now, I want to have an idea of the possible circumstances under which you could have wasted your time for you to insist on a positive confirmation.

[00:05:19]What what did you have in mind? How could that have arisen?

[00:05:27]>> Uh chief Number one, I'm going to mobilize resources.

[00:05:39]>> No no no no no no no.

[00:05:41]That's not about the resources or or or whatever else you would have had to do once there was positive confirmation because mobilizing is when you are satisfied that there's positive contact.

[00:05:57]That's not what I'm asking you.

[00:06:00]I'm asking you are saying you wanted to be assured that this was positive.

[00:06:10]Correct? Yes. Yes.

[00:06:12]And that was for a reason. You did not want to waste your time and leave the things that you were doing. You said so yesterday. Correct?

[00:06:24]Yes. Yes, chair.

[00:06:26]Now you say it it was enough if you were just told that the truck is now in Gauteng. That was enough.

[00:06:35]Now what I want to understand from you is what could possibly have given rise to a waste of your time?

[00:06:47]That I come there and there's nothing like that.

[00:06:51]You come where you go to where he said the truck was on Friday.

[00:06:58]And then then how could you possibly go there without him having said come the truck is here? That's [clears throat] all I needed to to That's all I needed.

[00:07:08]How could you have gone there without him first having told you that the truck is here?

[00:07:16]You mean you You would never You would never have had to go there without being told that the truck is here.

[00:07:22]That was That was one you didn't even know where exactly the truck would have to go. So you would have had to be told by him that the truck is now here. Yes.

[00:07:32]You get me? Yes. So what I'm saying is what I'm saying is your insistence that you should be told that the truck or rather, this This is all positive.

[00:07:45]Your insistence that you should be told that does not make sense because you would have been You would have had to be told anyway because you would not tell you would not have been able to just up and go without him first having told you that the truck is here.

[00:08:02]So, the positive confirmation that you are telling us about would have had to happen as a matter of course anyway. So, it doesn't make sense that you insisted on positive information or positive confirmation. The positive confirmation you are telling us about would have had to happen as a matter of course.

[00:08:26]Positive confirmation that would make sense is positive confirmation that this is indeed drugs.

[00:08:35]And that's what we say he must have told you the previous day on the 8th already.

[00:08:41]Otherwise, positive confirmation that the truck has arrived does not make sense.

[00:08:47]He would have had to tell you that as a matter of course.

[00:08:51]Because how else or why else would you just up and go? And where on earth would you go to?

[00:09:01]I can see from your face that you you understand nothing of what I'm saying.

[00:09:06]>> I Maybe you I say Is that what I was supposed to have?

[00:09:12]>> I didn't say I'm getting lost.

[00:09:17]No, I I will leave it at that. I'm going to hear uh the DD bedroom is deputy president Mabuza, the late deputy president.

[00:09:29]Do you accept that?

[00:09:32]>> The person I I was referring >> Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:09:39]Well, I >> to accept.

[00:09:43]Because I was talking about what he used to call We can say for instance like now here when you say Doggy Mashaba.

[00:09:58]Doggy hugs.

[00:10:01]Is it me?

[00:10:03]We are not We are not We are >> not forcing you to accept because you say you will now you will now accept but you go on to suggest that you are referring to something else. So, please answer the way you feel you should answer it. You are not being pushed or forced to answer it in any particular way.

[00:10:26]>> My apologies, sir. I accept.

[00:10:28]>> You accept now.

[00:10:30]Thank you. And you you also accept that the late Deputy President um used to be referred to by some as DD.

[00:10:40]You accept that as well.

[00:10:44]Don't don't don't nod. Please speak. It must be captured.

[00:10:48]>> Oh, yes, sir. Yes.

[00:10:50]>> Thank [clears throat] you.

[00:10:51]>> Thank you. You are making it difficult to confirm yes.

[00:10:56]>> You just confirm.

[00:10:58]>> [clears throat] >> How do you feel? Should we continue or do you feel like we should take a short short recess?

[00:11:06]>> No, can continue.

[00:11:08]>> All right, all right. Thank you.

[00:11:13]>> You press the light as if you do need to take a break, Chief.

[00:11:18]Okay.

[00:11:19]>> I'll [clears throat] indicate.

[00:11:20]>> Yes.

[00:11:21]Commissioners, we had stopped at page 107.

[00:11:25]Uh unless there are any further questions on that, I'd like to move to the next WhatsApp.

[00:11:32]Oh, the third one yes, I would The third one that I want to refer you to is C J C 276.3 the last loose set of pages there.

[00:11:48]Ready?

[00:11:49]>> Yes.

[00:11:50]>> Okay, thank you.

[00:11:53]Now, on 107 you had indicated that I'm not sure if I should still go through because of what you've just accepted now with the chair. So, I don't think I just for the record to show that the ANC caucus member the note that we've handed up to you references >> Let's maybe just put it on record.

[00:12:17]>> Yes, on record yes.

[00:12:19]>> It's always dangerous to go there because you might get an answer that you don't want.

[00:12:23]>> I agree chair, that's So, the parliamentary caucus document ANC caucus welcomes new members of parliament and if you go to the second page of that document you'll see the date 15 June 2019 and it says the African National Congress in Parliament will be welcoming five new members to fill vacancies in the National Assembly and then if you go to the next sentence it says the five comrades will who will take up seats in the National Assembly are as follows the second bullet point comrade Kebby Maphatsoe will replace comrade Jeff Radebe and that's on the 15th of June 2019.

[00:13:04]Now, in fairness to you you did not suggest that your reference to DD Mabuza being Kebby Maphatsoe and him returning being back was a reference to him being a member of parliament being appointed as a member of parliament. You said it was a reference to him being back in the country.

[00:13:23]Do you recall that?

[00:13:24]>> Yes.

[00:13:25]>> Okay, so but we just want to place this on record equal.

[00:13:28]Thank you, Chief.

[00:13:30]>> Thank you, Commissioner.

[00:13:31]>> Sorry, maybe maybe finally Mr. Gcaleka on there to also note for the record that the swearing in would would or was going to be on the 18th of June, 2019.

[00:13:44]>> Just for the sake of it.

[00:13:44]>> Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Baloyi.

[00:13:50]Now, Chief, just to get back to the WhatsApps. I want to take you to page 264, which is the WhatsApp conversation between EB Boss and Mr. Nkosi.

[00:14:05]264.

[00:14:08]Um my understanding is that that will be dealt with when Mr. Nkosi comes to confirm it. I don't have the confirmation at this stage. It's just what we are putting to him is these are the conversations until they confirm it here.

[00:14:22]>> Because he confirmed Mr. Nkosi's phone number and his phone number. Now, he's being told that this is a conversation between Mr. Nkosi and EB Boss.

[00:14:32]>> Yes. That is Remember, we dealt with it yesterday when we showed messages that EB brought that Mr. Nkosi was sending to EB Boss were also being sent to him. So, I did previously refer to this and indicate that it was a conversation between EB Boss and Mr. Nkosi.

[00:14:50]Whether the number for EB Boss is in which relates to that will be dealt with. Yes. Yes. Okay.

[00:15:02]So, if you if you go to 263, you will see the conversation on the 7th The first message on the 7th of April is a message sent by Mr. Nkosi to EB Boss and say salaam boss our guy just called us. He said those guys said >> You should please always direct us >> My apologies to you. It's the first one that starts on the 7th of 4/7/2021.

[00:15:36]All the others are six and the first one is 4/7.

[00:15:39]>> Thank you. Thank you.

[00:15:40]>> So it's one of the last two, the first one of the last two.

[00:15:44]>> Yes, I'm referring to the green box.

[00:15:46]>> Green or >> Salaam boss.

[00:15:48]>> All right. All right.

[00:15:48]>> My apologies to you.

[00:15:50]Salaam boss our guy just called us. He said those guys said they will need to give the immigration people their part before the shift starts around 4:00 p.m.

[00:16:00]Now I'm not asking you to comment on what this was cuz you're not part of the conversation. Um then EB Boss says call me at 10:00. There's a call. The next page is what I want to show you.

[00:16:12]Is Do you see at 2:64 at 7:30 a.m. is EB Boss's boss. They did not let him on the flight from Amsterdam.

[00:16:24]Tell everyone he's not coming. Do you see that?

[00:16:28]>> I see that.

[00:16:28]>> Okay.

[00:16:29]Then can I take you to page 120 of that same bundle which is now uh con- the conversations between you and Mr. Nkuku.

[00:16:45]And it is on the same day.

[00:16:50]120.

[00:16:57]Do you have it?

[00:16:58]>> Yes.

[00:17:00]>> Okay.

[00:17:07]>> Is that everything?

[00:17:08]>> The third green block um which which from Mr. Nkuku to you. Boss, they did not let him on the flight from Amsterdam. So it's at 7:41. The one that we looked at at 264 was at 7:30.

[00:17:26]And then it says, "Tell everyone he's not coming." at 7:41.

[00:17:32]And then the next message, "Hola, please postpone trips for today. Our guy is still busy with paperwork."

[00:17:39]>> [snorts] >> Now, you can see that whatever message is being exchanged between Mr. Mkhize and E.B. Boss on the on page 264 on the 7th of April is being sent to you by Mr. Mkhize in the conversation that you're having.

[00:17:57]So I want to know what was this um in relation to. And it is very specific.

[00:18:04]They did not let him on the flight from Amsterdam.

[00:18:07]Can you tell us what this was about?

[00:18:12]>> No, I I've got no recollection of this.

[00:18:18]>> Okay, it's a very specific incident. I mean, how often would you and Mr. Mkhize talk about somebody not being let onto a plane on a flight from Amsterdam?

[00:18:31]>> I can't remember what we what we were talking about there.

[00:18:37]I can't remember.