The Braadcast with Nico Louw (Episode 6): "I Owned 5 Properties by Matric"

Added: 2026-05-07

[00:00:00]Every building begins as an idea, a sketch on a page, a vision in someone's mind. But turning that vision into reality requires something far more complex. Engineering, logistics, people, and the relentless discipline of construction. The construction industry is one of those great engines of economic development. It builds our cities, our infrastructure, and the spaces where businesses and communities grow. Yet it is also one of the most demanding industries in the world. Today on broadcast we speak to someone who has spent decades navigating that world.

[00:00:35]Nicolo, the driving force behind Reno Construction, has built a company that has played a significant role in shaping South Africa's built environment through large-scale projects across multiple sectors. This is a conversation about entrepreneurship, resilience, and what it really takes to build the physical foundations of an economy.

[00:00:56]Nico, welcome to broadcast. It is my obviously honor and privilege to have you here. Thank you for saying yes when I I called you and asked you to join us and I look forward and we look forward to hearing your story. Um and how and where it all started and how it all went. So So again, thank you for being here.

[00:01:15]>> Thanks Norman. It's great being here.

[00:01:17]Thanks for the invitation. A bit of a hesitant yes. um not being a bit camera shy I think from the west of Joberg but we here we are let's give it a go.

[00:01:28]>> Yeah. So when when I first called you you said to me what would anyone want to know from a duchy from Kersto >> 100%.

[00:01:36]>> Well I can tell you you're one of the first names that came to my mind when it was dealing with entrepreneurship and property and a story. I mean we discussed it and it wasn't even a doubt.

[00:01:48]But I said I have to get Nikico on the show and and here you are. So thank you.

[00:01:53]>> Appreciate. Thanks for the invitation.

[00:01:55]>> So yes, we've mentioned started in in in Dean >> and uh you were a scholar and and and and you were at home and you were ambitious and you were you you were looking forward to to making money. I don't know. I'm sure those days as all though everyone in those days I think we were relatively the same age. Our parents were very hard on us >> and we needed to make our our own way.

[00:02:20]>> Yes.

[00:02:20]>> So tell us the very first time that you knew that you wanted to be in business and and and how originally started.

[00:02:28]>> Norman I think being in business is something that I was fortunate to be born with. I think I had acumen for doing business from a young age. I played a lot of tennis and play at school and my dad bought me a stringing racket from Teddler and Pledger then Joberg as he was a Netbank banker and I use a racket and while I play tennis tournaments here at Wanderers and everybody else I was stringing tennis rackets and earning a a buck on the side with that. That evolved we had friends down the road that had a rental property out in Ritter and I heard the conversation and the tenant issues that they had and I thought at very young age I'll I'll take that. I'll collect the rent and I started a rental property business collecting one old lady's rental in Ripwart and it grew from that and >> how how old were you then?

[00:03:12]>> I was instead at six I think I was 15 years old.

[00:03:15]>> No ways.

[00:03:16]>> Yeah. So it evolved fairly quickly from there. My mom was in she was with a western homeinder a property paper on the west end and I quickly got involved in real estate. She got me a a weekend job sitting showous and the property the the the the interesting things of property fascinated me immediately.

[00:03:35]Something that you can collect rent, you can buy a property, you can leverage it, you can hedge it, you can do all kinds of things with it. Um, >> but someone must have taught you that or did you just learn that?

[00:03:46]>> I was I was at a real estate company sitting in showouses on the weekend and I started reading up and I I did my estate agents course when I was I think 16 or 17. I enjoyed the law of that. I enjoyed the economics of that. And at that course, somebody taught us how to use a financial calculator, Cashio 733 financial calculator and present values and payments and things I could calculate while I was batting the trick mathematics and accountancy. And that was something that I learned quickly how how interest works and how capital appreciations works and the mortalization worked. And it was just out of doing a real estate course to become a real estate agent to be able to sit in a showhouse and earn 50 bucks for a Sunday. And that evolved fairly quickly. I then went on and I I bought a property and at those days there was a thing that I came across alienation of land act. So >> but it still exists today.

[00:04:37]>> It still exists today. They used it on farming in those days where interest rates were high or low. I don't even know what time of in the property cycle and farmers >> pay to buy or something.

[00:04:46]>> Yes. And I bought a first property for I think it was 100,000 rand and I paid a,000 rand deposit and I paid 1,000 rand a month and painted the property and neaten it up and rented it at 1,200 rand a month and that went on for a year or three or four. Um and it was also a a nice avenue because you didn't take transfer of the property but you got your endorsement on the title deed and I was before and I was 16 years old. So I bought my first property in Discovery at 16 years old on alienation of land act paying a,000 rand a month. Probably 2 years later the owner of the property phoned up or actually his father phoned me up and said but this is actually working so well um they've got another property in Elder Crane. would I be interested in in looking at that on the same basis and I bought my second property and held a crane and then it accumulated and I bought the third property of rental flat for 30,000 rand or whatever it was and I paid cash for that and by the time I was in metric 18 years old I own earned three four five six properties and that evolved from there and I was renting all of them all along and um when I got to 21 my first property I I was able to get a bond on it and I got 150,000 rand bond on the property that I paid 100,000 rand for and I still kept the property and the rental income was still forthcoming and it evolved from there and um that's when I started but focusing all my effort in property.

[00:06:07]>> So did you didn't you go study after school? No, I did. I I went to RA. I was in RA for 6 months. But while I was in RA, I was actually running a business. I had a real estate company on the Westland. We employed 180 agents. We had six branches. So I it was to go and study was a bit of a waste of time in my eyes at that point. Although hindsight, I should have stickked and did finish my BCOM degree, but I never did.

[00:06:30]>> And it was your company.

[00:06:32]>> It was my company. And it had I had eventually got a partner in that to help me assist it called News Property Brokers. It was one of the biggest real estate companies on the west end that I that I ran and um and then I was a youngster 24 25 years old. I mean I can tell you not know whoever's listening and going to watch us is going to be saying wow because I mean this is really uh for such a young entrepreneur to have a business at that age and those many people employed and and starting with literally nothing has seen an opportunity taking a gap >> not going to university.

[00:07:09]>> It's not everything that you want to be preaching to your kids but not at all >> but but it worked for you. It worked. It worked very well. But I think we were in the fortunate time that the economy was on up. That was 89, 94, 95. You could go to the bank and I remember going to the bank manager of Perm Bank and Goldman Street with three or four offers. And he says, "Which one of the which one would you like a bond on?" I said, "But can I have two bonds?" I said, "You can have four bonds." And and you get four bonds approved for 100% 110%. Um, and the property values are always on the increase. and I simply just adapted the methodology of accumulating property and renting it out revenue stream on that and that's how I grew it then let's talk about that period because I mean 94 95 93 94 was a challenging difficult and it's a multist time in South Africa there were a lot of people >> that didn't have the confidence and the belief and the vision to buy I mean there were a lot of people that were selling they thought this was the end of the world. It was Armageddon was about around the corner and the lights were going to get turned off. They only got turned off like 25 years later, but they thought it was the end then and you were you saw the opposite.

[00:08:22]>> Ignorance is bliss, I suppose, at it some at a time in your life. Um, yeah, I was acquiring property and getting finance on the property and and and building forth in that. And it then it got into a point about 1996 1997. I thought but maybe I should get into the developments because now in the real estate business we had secondhand sales.

[00:08:41]We had 140 agents selling there out of six branches and we thought let's venture into the new development phase that was doing quite well. I headed up the new development phase and then the property rental business and we were selling developers properties buying stock launching a sectional title scheme and sell 40 units on the weekend. You must have had someone to help you or learn from someone how to do a new development.

[00:09:02]>> Not really. We we we learned or I spent a lot of time studying the sectional title act because it was quite an interesting thing that you can build multiple amounts of homes and then have a body corporate that manages it. And I I had the financial backing of bankers that trusted in us and suppliers that we built a good relationship with at the time. We got involved in developments and I started another business Renico Construction in 1998 and we started building homes single buy a stand build a house but mostly sectional title schemes on the on the west at that time you had real estate firms essay land less fatherly that you phoned him up and you said I want to buy a piece of stand and he sends you a price list of 10 pages of resi resi 1 resi 2 resi 3 resi four commercial industrial it's like a price list a stock sheet >> and you picked and everything the services were there, the sites were there, they were tow our capacity was available and you you nitpicked whatever you want and you bought it and you put a product formulation together and you launched it and you sold it out and you had to build it as as economically as possible and it's there where I saw that and the frustrations of materials taking longer to site and you wait for a guy with a TLB that you hire to dig foundations that rocks up a month later and he come and delivers his old machine to site that's leaking oil. That's where we took the step into Renico plant. We bought our own machines and the the machines started building from there that we started building developments.

[00:10:29]Um we did mostly sectional title developments. We understood it well. We weren't scared of it.

[00:10:34]>> So your first sectional title development when was that?

[00:10:36]>> That was 1998. We built 16 units 60 square meter 32 bathrooms. We built it in 6 weeks and we sold it on the day of the launch.

[00:10:45]>> All of them.

[00:10:45]>> All of them. 828,000 rand development box in the west. in the West 828,000 rand development bond from ABSA and ended up doing the development I think at 800,000 rand and we still had 28,000 rand left out of the development bond sold the units all 16 of them for I think we sold them for 108,000 rand a unit sold it and made a great money >> made great profit made great profit and it evolved from there we >> you say we were you did you have a partner or >> no I didn't have I say we as I see our friends our supply chain our suppliers as our bankers as as my partners in everything that we do. But I'm a sold business. I'm 100% capitalized myself.

[00:11:25]I've always been along. Um here and there we get involved with partnerships and bigger things and shopping centers that we've developed that we've had a partner or two involved. But everything is mostly Niko at the end of the day.

[00:11:36]>> But Nico, I mean there was still early stages. You were not even 30 years old.

[00:11:41]Yes. Um, and you were doing these 16 or units. Uh, and started like now you built your you bought your own TLB and it started like growing. You had a few people in your construction team >> and um you went no one knew Renica construction. I mean we everyone knew a lot of other big developers. I mean I remember those days there was there was summer and there was Sable all in the northern suburbs but in the west end not many people ventured out there from from they call it the Van it's a bit there >> I can tell you but then you you started doing some some bigger developments and and and that landscape on the west end basically was changed by yourself and a number of other >> developers >> developers that were there at the which I know some of them but >> those are the blooming years. Those are the great years that services were available. there was a market available that if you did cash housing, typical affordable or sectional title schemes, you didn't have to get much wrong to to do a great development. And those were the the blooming years that we did very very well on the west end. But so that did the rest of the country, the north of Joberg, the summer cons, our peers have done exceptionally well in building sectional title and the sectional title um was a way to get lots of homes built quickly and effectively functioning well thereafter. Um we then decided to branch out not just in residential but also in commercial and industrial. I started getting very involved in that and still today we enjoy industrial a lot. We've we've got because we've got the machine and the plant and the equipment, we can go to site and we can go and demolish something and we can crush something and we can recycle things and we can build platforms.

[00:13:33]You're talking about uh construction company. I mean, let's not go back 10 years. Marian Roberts.

[00:13:41]>> Yeah.

[00:13:41]>> Bang.

[00:13:42]>> Yeah.

[00:13:43]>> Group five, >> bang. Basel Reed, >> bang. Leo, >> yeah.

[00:13:47]>> Bang. I'm just saying that must be daunting in itself owning a construction company if you haven't got work.

[00:13:54]>> 100%. I think we what makes us different from a construction company is we don't look for work. We don't we don't tender the open market. We don't go and chase work like the names you've just called.

[00:14:06]We we sell we create our own stock. We see the opportunity in land. It be residential development or commercial industrial. We identify it. My team that's got an acquisitions manager and a town planner. We've got accountants and all kinds of people around us. We investigate the opportunity. We've done a lot of marketing. We've got a lot of clients that's come a long way with us.

[00:14:30]Investors that started buying a unit for 100,000 rand and they bought one or two or 10 of those and 20 years later those are all worth a million rand each and they're getting proper rent on them. So they've regeared them over the years. So we've we've become their heroes in their eyes because we've created wealth for a lot of people and they it's in this astute following. So and some of those clients have become good friends and you can ask them or they come to us and say I see this piece of land or I see this derelic building along a main arterial maybe you guys should investigate this and we investigate it and we get involved and look at auctions and we get involved with people like yourselves and others to buy opportunities because we always hunt opportunities land opportunities. We don't hunt a tender or don't we don't sit in the open market and wait for somebody to give us a tender for us to put a competitive price in, get to work, and then struggle through that process of trying to make a buck out of out of building. We we're more property developers. But I think what's the big difference for us or for Reno is that we own a lot of property.

[00:15:28]We've also we've invested a lot. In the old days, we had this methodology. I had this methodology say 70% of everything I develop we sell and 30% I keep and that that just builds up a rental portfolio.

[00:15:42]So in that I've got got a residential rental.

[00:15:44]>> You still have that philosophy.

[00:15:45]>> We still we still have that philosophy and at one stage uh before co we were building 20,000 square meters of buildings a month that we were handing over. So it was a big machine. It's drive. It was driving and then CO came for instance and when CO really sunk its teeth in, we realized we've got 580 built completed units that's not sold and all of a sudden that changes the dynamics because now you've got a situation like CO that we had that that then really pinches you because >> So before we get to CO because I think that was one of Yeah. Yeah. Because that happened now before we get to CO. So I mean I remember I mean the early '9s and then there was Rams golf course was developed I mean but there there wasn't much no >> I mean the little developed by JCI >> shopping centers there were certain waterfall center that what's it called waterfall clear water at develop >> um that place has gone through the and I and I think you had a material effect on that on the residential side of that >> when did you I mean how many people part of that residential company or they still employed today?

[00:16:58]>> We've got a very small team that makes us different as well. My office team is 36 people that we that we have. Um our our extended operator fleet is is substantially bigger than that because each one drives a machine. the the decision makers are still me and the EXCO team that I have and a CFO and a COO and our head of town planning or head of property acquisitions and we've got a marketing division that's headed up by my brother and he sits into that and that's our forum for a Friday. Every Friday we have acquisitions meetings and we look at opportunities that's come across our table that we look at or that we're busy pursuing. Um, and the key to to all of that is because it's a long game that we're in property, we need to identify the next big thing. If everybody's buying residential land now, you should be selling residential land.

[00:17:47]If everybody's buying commercial, you should be in res. And if everybody's in resi, you should be in commercial. And that we've got, we we had a bit of luck in that, if I want to say it like that.

[00:17:56]Um we've bought the old hall long site on in Kruger on Fracker Road on an auction on a rail lever I think on auction >> alliance auction alliance auction we bought it from them I think from right um for a song I think it paid 100 rand square meter we had big factories on it that we all demolished we crushed it we sold the scrap metal we built platforms we built an industrial park 20 years ago and we still own that park today um >> so was that your first commercial uh involvement uh >> we actually built industrial estate in in um Robertville before that. So we my my first house I bought was in Discovery and about 20 years after I bought it I then sold it because I was disinvesting from Discovery because I thought you should buy north of on Deckas Road towards Ramuff Little Falls up to Sunning Hill going towards Santon and let me rather disinvest in the south of On Deckas Road and the first industrial property we bought was in Leader Road in Stormall and we built 16 factories there that we actually enjoyed the process a lot bought it developed 16 factories of 500 square meters each and we're renting that and we're still renting that.

[00:19:03]>> It's still part of your portfolio. It's >> still part of the portfolio and that's the thing we build properly you know when we look at a project and we identify a project we ring fence it and we say this is going to be for residential for for keeping and we keep it we design it in that fashion. If it's a sectional title scheme we do certain things in it that because we're keeping it there a bit different from a sectional title. We'll build a resident or a groundsman flat with it and we build certain things with it. It's not always what you'll do if you sell the site, but if you're keeping the residential stock, then you build it to specific requirements.

[00:19:34]>> Then you started your construction company and you started getting into some serious industrial properties. I mean, you went north.

[00:19:42]>> We went north and south and everywhere.

[00:19:45]We built a lot of industrial >> in Syria. I think you started that road there and was massive development and a lot of that I think was on risk >> 100%. at um at at one stage we had close on 90,000 square meters of industrial space being built on spec and uh at that time Investic financed it for us. We had a very good rapport with investig and um they they backed the jockey ultimately and we built Rand's industrial estate at 38,000 squares. We bought land from Irop from Rick Bennett in amalgam. We bought amalgam a 40,000 m industrial park and they were all at the time big risk items but the market forgave us and they and we let those and we we still still own them. We built the reputation though that we could create activity on site fairly quickly because we own the machines we own the supply chain we own we can we built for ourselves. So when Lancier corporate estate was launched, John V and the developer from Lancier corporate estate, Lancer Trust One um approached us and they asked us would we be interested in in looking at buying land here and developing and we ended up developing a lot of buildings in Lier Corporate Estate. But I mean, I remember clearly the the stuff that you built there at the time, the the the the look, the the way you built it was better than anything around Joe Boo. I mean, it was like ahead of the game.

[00:21:14]>> It was ahead of the game. I think we spent a lot of time in understanding the,500 square factory, the business owner that typically goes into it. What does he require in terms of an office?

[00:21:24]What does he require in terms of a warehouse? But by that time we we were doing a lot of land manufacturing as we call it where we actually buy farmland.

[00:21:32]We go through the township processes. We add the valley to it. We then put the civil services into the townships and for that we we developed legal extension 2 in in Stormall um where we the roads called Reno Crescent for our sins and DIY the little orange screw people that they came on and they and we built I think 40,000 square meters of buildings for them on that park. We then went and we built um Mustain Park just next to between Cosmo City and Kaya Sand. We did the whole industrial township of 15 20 30 stand or 30 acres of land that we actually did the services for. Then took one or two of the stands, built the buildings on it, created that momentum and then other people bought stands and built their businesses and we've been fortunate to have great operators on the west end that's that's bought buildings from us and have bought land from us and built buildings in that area. Do you still um Lancer is still part of your portfolio?

[00:22:26]>> Some of some of Lanceria is still part of our portfolio. Yes, we do own land there still buildings.

[00:22:32]>> And your construction team still going?

[00:22:34]>> Construction team is still going. It's a much smaller team than what it was postco was probably and one of the prequests that you sent me is you know what was the hardest thing that you've experienced in construction? And I think the hardest things we experienced was actually quite recently. We've had a very very good run in Johannesburg.

[00:22:54]We've had a good run in life. We've had a good run in a lot of places. But co was a real step back for us. We've had a lot of issues with tenants not paying rent. And there we once we saw that the commercial industrial space is maybe not the great greatest place to be if you're a property owner or a landlord. Um we saw there that residential is probably a better investment. It spreads the risk if it does nothing else because >> 100 tenants is not going to stop you paying stop paying your rent. They might have >> maybe 10 stop pay >> out of a out of a building of 100 maybe 10 stop paying completely. But if you ask them why they stop they've got a reason and if you manage that reason because hard times happens to people in life things happen. They lose jobs. They lose they fall in love. They fall out of love and everything else in between. And if you manage that that residential tenants always stand up and they and they do well with a commercial tenant.

[00:23:48]If a commercial tenant like a gym doesn't pay you rent for a year because they haven't been able to be open for a year that hurts. That really hurts.

[00:23:56]>> But you obviously had good financial partners that that could weather the storm with you.

[00:24:00]>> Not really financial partners but bankers because our portfolio is with Net Bank and I meant >> bankers. They end up being your partner.

[00:24:08]They be your silent partner like a like a lot of other government institutions that your silent partner like a councils local councils are our silent partners.

[00:24:17]>> So would you say that's the most difficult period for you in the development?

[00:24:20]>> Yeah that I think since co is definitely a change in the property market. It's a change in the end users the property owners property ownership as such has come under a lot of pressure. You've even have the work from home thing and people or the new new generation coming through that we sometimes wonder the new generation actually are they pro buying property are they still are they pro- owning property we are sometime of opinion that maybe that's not and today in Reno I believe that our biggest drive is to build more rental stock because the demands for rental stock residential rental is probably the next big thing in my mind in South Africa going forward um we know that the the the risk is spread.

[00:25:04]Um >> well, it's shown across the world. I mean, I think we in South Africa are lagging behind with regards to residential um investments and and funds and things like that, but it's it's more robust than any other investment. And in the world, they're traded much lower, much better yield. I mean, they're much more valued >> than they are in South Africa. And like you said, if one tenant or two tenants can't pay, the rest still are still paying it. But the young generation, the the millennium generation, let me just tell you, they don't want to be tied down.

[00:25:35]>> 100%.

[00:25:36]>> They want to be flexible. They want to move. They want to get in and out and >> instant gratification. They come and go.

[00:25:43]But we we we see that they've got this aspirations of going, but they end up not going anywhere and want all of a sudden they become a tenant for for a long periods of time. We've seen that the rental the residential rental portfolios postco have has has quieted down. It's buttoned down. We We now find that residential tenants asking us, "Can we sign five year leases with you? Can we sign a three-year lease?" Because post pre-COVID, we used to do a 6 months lease or a year lease and after 6 months, you can put the rent up for 3% or 2%. But today, it's a different story. You find a a residential tenant that's he's made up his mind. He's a long-term residential tenant. He wants shity. He wants to know where he's going to be. he wants to be in a property that's maintained and well looked after.

[00:26:29]Um, and they're aspirational and they they they're great tenants and but that's their choice. They want to be there because there's this or this idea that they want to be agile. They want to be able to move quite easily, but at the end of the day, they don't really move.

[00:26:42]They might move to a bigger home or a smaller home in life, but in general, they they they want to know that they're going to be a tenant in the same property for the next five or 10 years.

[00:26:52]and and that we see with schools being important, where you stay being important, traffic is a major consideration, availability of services and is all of these things available at all times.

[00:27:03]>> You're very involved now with I mean I think you're advising even some of the government and and the councils of how to and what to do and time planning and everything that goes along with it especially in your areas. I mean what kind of role have they played? I mean has it been always challenging or is it just now most recently or >> councils?

[00:27:24]>> Yeah, >> unfortunately they're not playing half the role that I believe they should be playing. I think our biggest challenge in in Keng and Johannesburg and probably in in all the councils around Johannesburg is services. availability of services. Services that's not being maintained and not being expanded is a huge huge issue and that's probably our biggest constraint going forward in development and that will ultimately drive pricing that will ultimately to be to the consumer's detriment and the cost of owning property and the cost of renting properties, the nonavailability of services and the lack of services or the bad condition that the services are in. Um, so it's a it's a real challenge.

[00:28:04]There's a lot that can be >> Has it always been that way?

[00:28:07]Since ' 89, I haven't seen it go better.

[00:28:09]You know, in the old days, the old Rderiput town council, they they they serviced little falls, they built roads, they put things on auction and made land available. And people went on a Saturday and you bought five stands from the Rud Council auction, the old parks or things that's that they've identified that's that's not avail not suited right and it was sold to developers and they built property and they created jobs and they created property ownership. That's hasn't happened unfortunately. We we see the Cape doing that now and they come under a lot of pressure for doing it from some some um people. Um but ultimately I believe that's what needs to be done. I mean they they they we've got this philosophy in Reno. Build it and they'll come.

[00:28:53]>> Um you see this in Dubai, you see this in a lot of other places in the world where they've they rolled out the infrastructure and the people are coming. They build it and the people come.

[00:29:03]>> Yeah. Most certainly. I mean you you've that whole area where you have been developing and all those you know the more and the quicker you build the more jobs you create the more >> income money flows into that area the the just money rolls >> yeah it's contagion and it just carries on going and going and going so you know if they can get their time planning done quicker >> if they can get the services there >> and if they can help and so just I I mean just to support the developers, it'll it'll change. You know, you always want to look at how many cranes can you see to see if the economy is doing well.

[00:29:40]The same as in construction, how many >> how many cranes do you see? That's for a property eye, that's what you do. If you're flying to a foreign country, you sit in the plane and you've inbound in short finals, that's what you look at.

[00:29:50]That's what you look for as a Norman.

[00:29:52]That's what Niko and everybody that will probably join you. That's what that's like the the the burger economy with the McDonald, the indicator they've got for us in the property industry is how many cranes you see. And we don't see far enough grand in Johannesburg at all.

[00:30:05]>> But I I think if they can get that right and I think uh >> if they can learn from what's happening in in the Cape I mean because as recently then there's there's a lot of good things that are working there and the developers are are licking their lips because they they they just can't build enough. They can't build fast enough and and everything that they build is getting sold out. I mean there's some unbelievable beautiful iconic buildings going up in the Cape and hopefully that'll set the example for the rest of the rest of South Africa and maybe some will flow to >> we really hope so. I there there's even a a forum that's that believe that is poised to be the next big thing where that's we've we've been sucking the tit for a long time in Johannesburg. We've had a lot of people move to the Western Cape. Um you see the property prices in the western Cape butting is still the economic hot throb of of South Africa.

[00:30:58]This is where it should be going well but it's not. Um but we we starting to see green shoots. I I honestly believe that the great ideas that's not always executed properly and the great ideas that's not actually followed through will get rectified by the management as it changes as politic politics change.

[00:31:19]And you don't have to do a lot right.

[00:31:20]you just do some basic things right and it'll change the playing field immensely and and now in Johannesburg being in a in a negative growth in the past 10 years probably it's we're coming off a very very low base you know if you've if you're a speculative buyer >> we're in the auction business we know >> we're auctioning property some of the residentials but let me just tell you >> uh it's changing I can tell you there's what I the indicator there's been 8,000 in the northern suburbs 8,000 less homes for sale >> in the northern suburbs in the residential property 24 than there have been uh four or five months ago and that's a good indicator >> 100% you know I think anybody that that works in a corporate environment and ventures to the Western Cape sees that property values and then realizes the Jober is actually a hub I mean it's it's cheap Johannesburg property prices if you sit on a plane going somewhere or you sit in property 12 property 24 and you look at anything in the Cape Wlands or the Cape, the bigger Cape cost and what it costs in Jober and Ptoria. I mean, it's become a it's become a joke really what you can buy for three or four million rand in Johannesburg and what do you get for 3 or 4 million rand in the Cape? It's literally a a mansion versus a bachelor flat.

[00:32:35]>> Yeah. I mean, you you're paying maybe 10,000 rand a square meter here and to build it'll cost you 30 or 25, you know, so >> there's real value. But now tell me about I mean you've you've almost achieved everything that you possibly could have achieved in your short I mean you you're still young 54.

[00:32:57]>> Yeah. You've had a hard life >> but you're still young through the bush backwards.

[00:33:02]>> It was we age 20 years in the past five.

[00:33:05]>> But uh tell us about uh what your plans are now. I mean, you got your construction company, you got your TLB company, >> you got your >> But our our biggest game is property ownership in Reno real estate. We own property there. We we'll we've got a land holding that was a a big noose around our neck during co we rolling that out. We're developing that. And today we see that with rentals in the affordable space because ultimately where do you go in when the times get tough? You go right to the bottom of the property property triangle and that's an affordable space. So bonded homes where a three-bedroom, two bathroom 60 m sectional title house today is costing 800,000 rand. That's it's expensive by all terms. But you're getting 8,200 rand rent for those and they rent 100 a day if you can manufacture 100 a day. So we at in the economy we're now at the point where people are paying more for rent what that same property will cost on a bond and that that's an indicative >> it's changed dramatically because it used to be the other way around.

[00:34:10]>> It used to be the other way around be a four 5% return and now you're looking at 11 12% >> return and that is now becoming the norm and is it going to change? I'm not sure because the point of entry to buy properties is become very difficult because inflation at 3% and building inflation at 20%. They've gone apart so far that I don't know if the individuals or young people can actually afford to buy property anymore. But if you look at world economies, property is not bought by young people. It's it's it's a luxury. If you own property in Europe, if you own property anywhere in the world, you are a very very wealthy person.

[00:34:48]>> So I I mean I was having coffee with a developer that predominantly focus in town recently and he said to me now happened to sell a lot of properties to him in the early 2000s and he said to me he feels like it's 2003 2004 all over again like deja vu.

[00:35:05]>> Yes.

[00:35:06]>> And he's going to have another go.

[00:35:07]>> He's going to have another run and he's probably going to have a successful run at 100%. I I I I share the I share the thoughts. I we're seeing it like us. And today we're excited. We're seeing green shoots coming out. We see a a market that's changed. We see a market that wants security. They want they want to be in town. They have to be in town because to move around to to have transport costs a lot of money. So there must be a life for Jober CBD.

[00:35:34]Although it's in such a state it'll take a lot to get it right. There's there's a second life for for Ferndale. There's a second life for a lot of in these places with older buildings that you can rekit them and repurpose them. I think you had Mike Fleck here or you've had uh >> Mike Flex was here, Johnny Robbie. We've been >> uh from the rental guys.

[00:35:54]>> Yeah, Justin Blend.

[00:35:55]>> Justin was here and that's what they do.

[00:35:57]That's the whole business principle running just on rekitting old office parks for rental for rental space. And it's a brilliant model that works well and it sorts out a lot of problems because somebody can come and rent on the west end and have a 30 30 km trip every day that takes them 3 hours and cost them 100 rand each way or they can come and rent a property in Joberg or in Ferndale or in Ranburg or in Sunning Hill be 5 minutes from from the office and the rent is a bit more than what it is but they've rekitted a building.

[00:36:26]>> So you seem to have had the vision of where to be. I mean you've said the upside low base lots of potential huge upside against what's happening around the country in the Western Cape and the Eastern Cape Southern Cape.

[00:36:40]>> I mean the West I know that's where you play but where where else do you think there's some potential? I mean Benoni Box we've seen a lot of stuff happening out that side is very big.

[00:36:52]>> Are you playing in that space?

[00:36:54]>> We we do logistics. We're not busy on the east end. Although we did a building now for an international company that we've the old pick and pay DC on the N12 oil storage facility that they bought.

[00:37:04]We demolished it. We rebuilt it. We built them a new 12,000 square fitment center for for the the business. It's called the Landia, the company that does tail lifts on trucks. So all these cold refrigerator trucks that you see driving around taking consumer goods, the lift at the back that they use to offload and unload, they they manufacture those in Belgium and they import them to South Africa and they fit them here. We built a big building for them now on a repurposed site that we rebuilt. Um but the logistics is big. You know, the consumers is is is always the consumer drive is there. We see the logistics being a big hub. We see it along R21 and a lot of other places. Unfortunately, the west of Joberg is not that good in logistics for some unknown reason. Um, it's maybe just the the closeness to our Tombbo airport. Although you mentioned Lanceria, I see there's now new tender civil works coming out on Lanceria that's being extended. There's a import export for freight coming to Lanceria, I gather. So, Lanceria is poised for massive development and you see the land there, but what's lacking is the planning and the execution and >> and the services. Are they there yet?

[00:38:12]They're not there. They're not there.

[00:38:13]They're not there. Um you know when they developed Blair Ethl 20 years ago, I think Blel falls under TW council and this the water line comes from Ptoria.

[00:38:22]The sewer line is probably some packaging plant or something. And 20 years after Blair Ethel was developed, there's still no municipal services brought from Ptoria or from Joberg or from Mali to to the area. And that's the biggest st biggest stumbling block because local councils would like to charge bulk contributions but they're not actually putting in any bulk services and not developing infrastructure and that's a that's a makes a huge lag factor and makes it very very difficult to roll out developments and that's why the developments if they come on board they are very very expensive because the cost of park services and the availability of services and is expensive and if you have to go and fetch your water 80ks away that's an expensive item. We've noticed a lot of old industrial areas being like you saying re rebuilt knocked down redone because the power of life >> water's there power is there and they're getting redone espec and in residential I mean what some of these guys are doing conversing repurposing >> but I mean >> those are those are those are those centers of excellence that you need to hone in on you need to identify it and um and then work in that space >> but tell me this is more more about you how do you manage all these businesses?

[00:39:36]I mean, you've got a residential development company, you've got an industrial team, you've got a a a plant hire team. I mean, you've got a a sales team.

[00:39:45]>> Good teams.

[00:39:46]>> Give us some of those. You've obviously created a great culture within the company >> because I know I know some of your staff that have been there as long as I've been dealing with you over 20 years, they're still there.

[00:39:56]>> Yes.

[00:39:56]>> But how do you manage all these businesses as one person?

[00:40:01]my management team. It's it's a small team, but we do well. We manage hard.

[00:40:05]We're there. I'm involved.

[00:40:07]Ultimately, I take the decisions to the good or to the bad or that I need to to be involved. But our we we're blessed with a very good team. We ultimately still a very young team. You know, we I'm probably one of the older ones in the office. Um the team is my age and younger than what I am. And that's that's exciting. It's it's a youngster.

[00:40:28]A lot of youngsters. Have you invested anything offshore? Have you tried to play in in the space ac overseas or not really just >> focus? We always look at it and and uh and sit in awe and read what people have done in Spain and Portugal and America and Western Europe and all these places.

[00:40:46]But being a a small business, if you take your eye off a ball, you'll probably get bold middle P. So, so we we we don't get out much um into the the rest of Africa although I think there's a lot of opportunity in Namibia. There's a lot of opportunities in Botswana and I think there's a lot of opportunities in Zimbabwe and the places like that.

[00:41:07]>> Yeah. And there is and uh but I'm glad you're world. Listen, I'm a patriot. I think South Africa's got a lot to offer.

[00:41:15]Yes. Traveled a lot. Been very fortunate. But I I think what we've got here and the the the property people, the entrepreneurs and it seems like we're just always doing something better than our neighbors all the you know you go they're bringing all the ideas here and they're making them better.

[00:41:29]>> Yes.

[00:41:30]>> I think the property our peers in the property game and you interviewing probably a lot of them in the next month or two but it's a special breed. It's a special breed. I think you'll go far in the world to find such a lot of interesting people that sees opportunities and things. But I think we were also in the environment that it's possible if you in the in a different environment where you weren't didn't have the opportunity. You didn't have in like other parts of the world with political and economical climate where they are. South Africa is blessed. We've got great weather. We've got a great economy. Um >> that's why it was so important to get you because you're kind of under the radar. You're not running a big listed fund. You're not you you you're kind of doing your own thing. You're an entrepreneur. You you're a developer.

[00:42:12]you're a businessman and you've created something that you know it's it's it's massive. It's huge. And yes, you only got so many people in your team, but if you see what you've done over 200 developments, I mean uh it's something that I think in South Africa you can get right. I don't know if it allows you in any other place in the world.

[00:42:34]>> Yeah, 100%. like Australia. I think to do what we do in Australia is because of it being so governed and so so hard ruled, it's probably not possible. And it's not possible in probably in England where it's old old rules, old people.

[00:42:48]>> And it's easier to make 20 rand than to make a pound >> 100%. Yeah.

[00:42:54]So tell tell me I mean as a as a youngster coming through as a graduate I mean what kind of advice or firstly do you have any regrets >> looking back now anything look back or wish you'd have done something different or better >> I think you can always do something better but in general no I I think I'm very fortunate that we enjoy property immensely and we enjoy the the the rental income and we enjoy the ownership of property and we understand the ownership of property and we embrace it and it's a longevity thing at the end of the day. What what it's taught us is is your horizon needs to be far and wide.

[00:43:32]Um 30 years ago, 20 years ago, I met an old investor on the West End and he asked me what what is your 30-year plan for property? What are you buying for 30 years?

[00:43:41]>> 30 years.

[00:43:42]>> And I thought 30 years I get a bond over 20 that's a long time. Now 30 years and all of a sudden in the blink of an eye you are 30 years down the road, you know. So it's to have a long view to to to be patient, you know. So the the vulture is a patient bird. Same thing in property. You need to sit, you need to be conservative, focus.

[00:44:01]>> Property is always your friend. And even when there's like inflation, it's even more of a friend of yours because it just grows and it becomes more valuable.

[00:44:10]Yeah.

[00:44:11]>> Tell me as a youngster coming out of like studies any advice and before cuz I always ask this question like as as they graduates what should they be doing >> should buy property >> buy property >> property buy property I think that's the biggest thing and we in Renico as well we we try and encourage that as far as possible and I've always said that you need to buy property >> I think in the past 2 three years we probably got to a point where the average person cannot afford to buy property anymore but I think if it's your if it's a task that you need to do as a as a property entrepreneur, as a business person, as a graduate, as as as anybody. You need to own the property that you live in. You know, it's a and it's a simple thing. You get to age where you are old and frail. If you don't own the property and you are left to the devices of others and then it becomes hard and life becomes very very hard if you don't at least own the the roof over your head.

[00:45:04]>> It is the biggest investment that you'll make, but it's it's a very important investment. You need to sacrifice McDonald's twice a week and all the other luxuries that you enjoy and and button down and own a at least your your primary. You >> mentioned something there retirement and fra have you got involved in that space at all?

[00:45:22]>> Not really. We did a bit of it in Pocha Strum where we spent a bit of time as well um identifying that as a niche on the old western transvol um and we did it's a co-development with 's group that developed retirement or they de developed an estate within retirement component we looked at it we have not done retirement formally as as our own developments um and we we we have this discussions frequently shouldn't we get involved in it >> but it's it's a complex thing property life rights sectional title, frail care, assisted living. There's a lot of rules around it. There's that's a specialized game. Um there's a lot of people that that specialize in that and they do it.

[00:46:01]I don't think we'll be involved in it soon, although we see that the pressures on it and we see there's opportunity in it, but it's not in our our short-term plan.

[00:46:10]>> So, I asked the same I asked the questions, what do you do as a graduate?

[00:46:13]And then I say, what do you do when you're 30? But you already said, let's start buying property at 23. So, if you're at 30, >> you must have 10. You know, it's a simp it's it's a simple thing. If you from the age of 30 to 50, you acquire a property a year. From 50 to 70, you keep it. And from 70 for the next 20 years, you you sell one a year, you'll live comfortably. And naughty kers is the most property is probably the place where the most stupid people can make money as well. And that's true. You know, it's a simple thing. Buy a property, acquire another one, another two, another three. If you acquire five or 10 or 20 in your lifespan and you sell them when you go to retirement age one a year, you'll probably look after yourself better than what your pension fund or your whatever you have planned for your retirement looks after you.

[00:46:58]>> Well, you've certainly started at a young age and the king of the vest run.

[00:47:04]I mean from buying your own property to developing to getting involved in implant tire and then industrial and now bigger and future developments and and setting the standard for a lot of other developers some of which are listed or being listed or backed by big financial instit institutions. You've done it with the support of some of your bankers >> and you've done an incredible job about it and you've done an amazing thing. You have certainly changed the landscape of the West End and it's been an absolute pleasure and wonderful to hear the story and I just want to thank you. I don't know if I've missed anything because it's been so exciting. You went through so quickly. I mean it's like a Yeah. But but it's been amazing and I'm just so happy that you've come and told your story and it's it's like given a lot of other young entrepreneurs, you know, when they listen to this to say, you know, this we can do it too. And and I think that's the beauty about South Africa and about business people and about ambitious >> property. I think to leave you with a thought someone said to me a long time ago, you must remember property population growth and cement sales have never been on a negative curve.

[00:48:17]>> 100%.

[00:48:18]>> And if you think about that population growth and cement sales have never been on a negative curve. In that where you are in the curve might differ. You might be in up or down, but over a 10 or 20 or 30 year period, cement sales go up and population growth goes up. The world population is ever expanding. So the property is probably the right place to be if you're a youngster and you understand a bit of math and you understand leveraging and all these great things that we've got available to us fairly easily. Um it's an exciting place to be.

[00:48:50]>> Yeah. And like I think the next show I'm going to try to get a bit the the head of town planning from Chber City in here and let's ask him some hard questions.

[00:48:59]Yeah. But I mean you uh exemplify what it is to be a businessman in property and an entrepreneur >> and it's it's wonderful to and I say you are one of those bur that made a plan and you've done it in an exceptional way. So thank you.

[00:49:14]>> Thanks for the invitation. Appreciate it for being here and sharing it with us.

[00:49:18]>> Thank you very much. Thank you. Byebye.

[00:49:19]I'm Norman Rod and see you on the next one. And please don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe to our channel.

[00:49:26]Cheers for now.