#Borderlines: The Escalating Crisis of Xenophobia In South Africa

追加: 2026-05-10

[00:00:06]And it's a good afternoon Lagos, Nigeria, the diaspora, South Africa, wherever you are joining us from. Welcome to Border Lines, the only show that takes you beyond borders.

[00:00:21]Today, firstly, actually, let me apologize for last week. Last week we had to cancel the show last minute because I had a bereavement. I lost a friend and I just heard just before we were coming to the show. So apologies to everybody to our regular listeners and indeed to our guest who was supposed to be with us last week who is now back this week. So what are we talking about right now? My first guest is going to be talking to me about something, an issue that is critical to all of us. It's an issue that continues to haunt one of Africa's most advanced economies.

[00:01:03]It is an issue that a nation once celebrated for its transition from apathite to democracy is now once again grappling with a disturbing resurgence of what many people call xenophobia which in actual fact is afrophobia because indeed they are not attacking any white person. They are only attacking Africans. Without much ado, we have a lot to cover. My guest, he's been here before, so he's a brother to the house, is Luazi Somia. Loazi, welcome.

[00:01:43]Welcome, welcome. Let me tell them who you are. You are an international relations analyst. Your work focuses on migration, regional stability, and political economy of conflict in Africa.

[00:01:58]Welcome to Border Lines again.

[00:02:02]>> Thank you so much and thank you for wcoming me and condolences to you and and the family of your friend. Uh I deeply sympathize uh with you uh and I hope uh they rest in peace and find their ease in the next realm.

[00:02:14]>> Amen. Thank you so much.

[00:02:16]>> Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. I had to put out that apology. So let's talk about this. So the the the nation the nation which was celebrated in fact before celebration the nation that all of Africa especially Nigeria fought to ensure they would be free of apathide the nation that till today there are generations my generation and I don't know how old you are of Nigerians who were here at the time who actually remember sending their pocket money, their pocket money, not their parents' money, their pocket money to South Africa. The nation known as the rainbow nation suddenly decides it might take all the other colors in the rainbow, but it's not taking black.

[00:03:10]Why? What's going on?

[00:03:14]Well, it it is a very difficult uh situation that STO faces itself in 30 years into its democracy. Um what has happened over the last 5 years is that there's been an increase in anti-African immigrant sentiment. Uh firstly it started off just ahead of co with the drafts crisis within South Africa. uh and then then COVID 19 pandemic hit and then what happened in the interim was uh rhetoric coming from the United States around illegal immigration and therefore people uh started looking at each other in their communities within South Africa and and within South Africa and due to the crisis of poverty, unemployment and equality with South Africa, people resorted to an increase of crime and therefore once that has happened both South African and immigrant were clubbered in together and therefore since the immigrant is the other within those communities. A lot of people got blamed. However, what we also see is that a lot of people within South Africa are pushing back against against these individuals because when you see the mobilization on TV, it is selected grouping of individuals that are mobilizing around this issue. It is essentially a grouping of um um hostels and even tribal affiliations that are mobilizing around this issue. So the the major crisis that South Africa face is that the crisis of the economy, the crisis of crime and the crisis of a forgotten history uh between ourselves and and and a newer generation who are utilizing the language of the day to justify the lack of dividends within the democratic framework. And therefore now the violence that we've seen um or or the anti- immigrant sentiments are means of not of communicating a broader problem within South Africa of a young people who does not feel that they can have upward mobility because they lack jobs and career prospects. So having the other person's flourish in front of your eyes obviously creates a situation where when there are scarce resources, the people fight amongst themselves for those scarce resources.

[00:05:26]>> Indeed, that's often what happens. But here's the thing. Scarce resources, but you have a white South African population that still holds 70 80% of those resources, whereas the blacks still own the minority even though black South Africans are the majority. Why then is that anger?

[00:05:49]Why is that pain? Why is that frustration not being meted on the white South Africans whom we must actually at this point it is worth saying that before apathide people often focus on apathide but before apathide there was colonization and slavery in South Africa which is often rarely well which is actually not often rarely rarely ever spoken about which most people I'm sure our listeners do not even connect with or remember and these people a vast majority of them are descendants of those people. So why is that why is that anger? Why is that frustration not being meed on them?

[00:06:33]Especially most especially as we know land is about power. Land is about richness. Land is about healing to Africans. Land is about resources and it's about your, you know, your indigenous heritage. So why is that not happening? Why are they meing it and applying it and pummeling black people?

[00:07:01]>> So two things have happened post a party South Africa. The spatial apartate meaning how cities, towns, rural areas are designed are still largely still structured in a similar manner where black people live in the outskirts and white people live in industrialized and the and the leafy suburban areas of obviously over a time a more black middle class started seeping into the suburbs and the CBDs but a large concentration of the black working class still live in these upper swallers and ghettos. So a decision was made at the dawn of our democracy that we do not want to put people into refugee camps uh similar to to to what what was what happened uh with with some of the combatants in in Zambia. Um and and what what was decided by the ANC the Afghan National Congress government at the time was people should integrate into communities and have try to earn a living within those communities. Now since uh system was designed to concentrate black people into these particular areas what happens is that then the violence of these people who are in power which is obviously met out against the nearest neighbor in these instances it's our African brothers and peers who who who brothers and sisters who are there and therefore what what what happens now is that it's it's it's similar to a crab in a barrel scenario where people instead of seeking out greater pastures is they often fight amongst themselves for the limited resources that they have at the time. The seventh aspect of of this is that whilst this is happening in terms of um um um um um um people being uh in in in in living within communities, a lot of South Africans believe that um the border within South Africa um is is insecure and therefore the rise of drugs and cartels being rising within South Africa more recently and a number of shipments in terms of law enforcement being weak within South Africa. um that happens. But the third aspect is that the white white communities are highly protected within South Africa, especially considering the private security space where they live up in high walls and they be it's very difficult to target and therefore our African brothers and peers are are the easiest targets for these people to meet up their frustrations. But instead of addressing their problems with the government, they address the problems with their fellow uh inhabitants of South Africa. And therefore that's creating the social crisis. But I should I should also also like to highlight that in some communities um like the there were Somali um T shop owners that were protected by the community opportunists. So there are efforts by everyday people depending on community to community but in the vast majority uh these sentiments are derived from a very difficult economic situation and a very difficult crime and criminal justice situation as we have seen within South Africa. Our police services are currently under a commission of inquiry concerning their involvements in cartels uh etc etc. So there is a lot of mistrust within law enforcement and therefore people operate within these v vigilante means to getting their messages across and therefore law enforcement needs needs to take take action against such people from agitating any further because these are similar individuals that caused the July unrest back in 2021 uh when president Jacob Zuma was arrested. So we should be conscious of that there are similar trends and patterns that are that are that are enabling this kind of violence uh that we should be conscious of.

[00:10:35]>> Now I'm glad you mentioned about you know the criminal justice and the lack of trust and indeed the corruption within the South African you know um security operator structure if you like.

[00:10:48]One of the things that we've heard is that there's also a a high corruption in South African immigration and widely believed that a lot of the immigrants, undocumented immigrants, um I tend to take exception and stare away from the word illegal immigrants. Um, so undocumented migrants, one of the things we've heard is that a lot of them may have gotten their papers or falsify the papers or whatever via corrupt immigration officials. Do you believe that is that thing? Can you tell us if that's if there's some sort of veracity to that?

[00:11:32]There >> is major veracity towards that. So there have been a number of arrests being carried out over the last 6 to 7 months at the department of home affairs over officials either taking bribes to print uh new identity documents uh to facilitate illegal transactions and and that's why a number of countries that South Africa used to share visa free access to um um now have created visa uh provisions on the basis that people who come into South Africa the home affairs official and then make their way into into those countries visa-free and this has created a major problem concerning South Africa's ability to trade internationally. Um and and and what you see now is >> in way in what way if I may just interrupt you. You said it's created problems for for South Africa to trade internationally. In what way? Tell us.

[00:12:22]>> So historically what used to happen is that South Africa used to have visa-free access into the UK economy um at and and and in Ireland. Um due due to now our passport being utilized in multinational crime syndicates involving South Africans and other other actors. um um the transport was in its trust rating fell down the ladder of EU member states including the United Kingdom and therefore a number of business actors who used to travel frequently up and down in South Africa UK um um that has created a further hurdles for them. Um and on the second on on the secondary aspect of it is the issue of trust deficit between uh what we have um in terms of our systems within the country.

[00:13:10]Um because what has ultimately happened is that South Africans simply do not trust the home affairs official uh currently. They don't trust that their IDs will not be stolen to register someone to commit fraud or crime. And these are this is done by everyday criminals um um um whether or not they they're South African or not. Um and therefore what what is what what has been happening more recently is there's been a mass arrest of South Africans who've been facilitating these uh creation of these documents at the Department of Home Affairs. uh and now beefing up of the immigration system uh within South Africa including uh the the more greater capacitation of the border management authority which is now regarded as a step above the department of affairs itself um which will deal now with issues around technology immigration and the uh boosting of South Africa's immigration systems um South African government now reports that they deported around 500,000 people um over the last two years um and and and uh they they have making means towards uh strengthening up the immigration system.

[00:14:14]But fundamentally this is an issue of um criminality that exists within some some state departments and within South Africa that South African law enforcement needs to sort out and which shouldn't result in this vigilante movement of people trying to take the law into their own hands.

[00:14:29]>> Indeed. And and here's the thing, this is what we haven't heard from and and and when I say heard in a very strong and you know condemnable manner from President Ramosa and indeed the the majority of South African reps. They haven't been very upfront about demanding, not just demanding an end, but demanding that those perpetrating this really violent crimes not only be arrested, but be prosecuted. They have not been demanding for an example to be made of them. And and I think that in itself is what concerns a lot of Africans you know who other countries who are looking at this and thinking why is the normally sort of you know the fearless ramen fosa why is he being so I don't know skirting around this issue I mean is it because they support it >> I have highly doubted because presidenta is is is a panafricanist and has been a panafricanist.

[00:15:40]>> Well, he's not showing it, is he?

[00:15:43]>> Well, he's not showing it.

[00:15:46]>> Some of the messaging that we that has been happening has been happening from megaphone politics. So over the last three days uh uh minister Ronald Lamola has has has been doing a to force within media condemning uh these people of taking the law into their own hands and articulating government stance and what what government is doing in terms of addressing the concerns of the South Africans but at the same time telling South Africans that they'll be held accountable for their actions especially now it has be began to impact medium to small businesses around city CBDs is where this small grouping of people are shutting down shops whether people have have a proper registration or not all the businesses are being impacted and impacting various South African and non South African livelihoods. So the ministers and various other ministers have been have been there. There's also been a clash um within uh between the minister of the presidency and some of the protesters uh them um um um singing highly tribalistic songs against uh the minister um um and and othering them. So when we talk about this form of afrophobia then you have to understand there's an element of undone tribalism that has been manifesting and bubbing up underneath our within this. So from a government and the leading parties perspective that has been however there are some loudmouth parties such as actions sa the patriotic alliance um um including um uh the DA being mum on this issue the democratic alliance being mum on this issue uh but the EFF and the ANC and and and and and others um standing firmly on the side of the protection of migrants within South Africa was they contribute a lot in terms of our economic growth grow uh tax base um uh in terms of research capabilities, our economy uh in terms of even the the media the the the the small jobs within South Africa. So um it it is very important. So from a government and some of the the leading parties within the GNU and outside the GNU there have been comments the however there is an young member of parliament within South Africa called Balominojama who has been persecuted on social media for standing up against theophobia um um um within South African and and this was articulated on behalf of the majority party within South Africa uh and in the parliamentary session. So there have been instances of uh fighting and pushing back against this narrative.

[00:18:18]However, you still have those people mobilizing on the ground um and and their sentiments uh due to the economic situation and still continue to deteriorate um and and until all those matters are addressed uh especially the issue around how do we deal with the South African economy and how to redistribute the wealth within South Africa. um these sentiments and misinformation and and the transporting of US rightwing um fascist propaganda talking points will continue to manifest not only within South Africa and you'll also see it being manifesting within other regions within our continent and you'll now undermine what we clearly want to see of a united Africa. So these are these tensions might be boiling up in South Africa but but they are symptomatic of a broader issue of what are the dividends of African democracy and the way forward concerning that.

[00:19:09]Indeed. Has there been any arrest? As far as you know, >> there have been a number of arrest of of of people who have been inciting violence. Uh but um as you know with these things, they're trying to catch the leading figures of of the matters if in the instances of violence um on on the matter. Um so the the problem is that a lot a lot of times police have rushed towards making arrest and not creating a s tight case and the person just ends up winning it on techicality.

[00:19:42]So in this instance uh public order policing has been on the scene more recently working with the South African police services uh trying to manage the situation. Um however you still see them protesting um though now peace more peacefully but it's still a very frightening um messaging that they're taking out there and you hear young people uh regurgitating such messaging around uh our fellow African brothers and sisters um which also speaks to the type of political consciousness that's that's emerging within the younger generation that's more transactional rather than uh principled and morally based.

[00:20:22]Indeed, let's talk about that, you know, that consciousness, that political consciousness. And I'm glad you come to it, especially because it's it seems to be sort of permeating amongst the younger South Africans, which makes it even more frightening. But then what I don't understand, and I think what a lot of us don't understand is you mentioned the FF Julius MMA. He's not exactly an old man. He speaks to the young. He has a lot of young followers. Why is his message not getting through?

[00:20:56]>> I mean, he's he's one arguably is he speaks more panafricanism during the immediately during this whole, you know, sort of uh uh awful season of of violence than than you know, Sri Mosa did.

[00:21:15]There's there's a saying that's going around that says that uh rhetoric and ideology do not put food on the table in that situation situation when people are facing around a 3% youth unemployment rate uh and around 2 26 depending who which statistics you're taking 26 to 35% uh general population unemployment rate um people around 3.7 million South Africans or young people are not neither in higher education or schooling or even in jobs or just lounging on the streets.

[00:21:47]Those people do not even though he speaks nicely about issues around land on this issue the person that they see and as the immediate threat to their jobs is the person who comes from another country was come in. So those sentiments keep continue brewing and they've been perpetuated by the media when every single time a crime happens they have to attach the nationality of the individual rather than an ABC person committing the crime. uh so they attach their nationality which overconflates uh the the proportion of South Africans to foreign nationals who are actually conducting crime within this country therefore creates an internalized identity and memory within South African society of these are individuals creating and perpetuating crime and therefore we should root them out. So those kinds of narratives are now being become more embedded on how the narratives are generated by both the media but also general society itself.

[00:22:42]So messages such as from MMA, from SRO and from the other political elites do not hit at the heart of the day-to-day struggles of the people. So we need to now fundamentally address what the people are concerned about which is a major issues around jobs and being able to put food on the table at the end of the day and within a context of a rising economic uh uh cost globally. So so it it it is th those material conditions that are fostering this animosity.

[00:23:09]However, it will take all hands on decks both society, business, government u um um whether you're a foreign national, as long as you're a resident of the Republic of South Africa, we need to put all hands on deck into ensuring that we create uh the prosperity that can serve all.

[00:23:26]>> Let me read something out to you. It's from a friend of mine who lived in South Africa for seven, eight years and had a business there. So he was working there and everything and he he wrote he wrote it to me actually a couple of weeks ago and he said here he's going to share two experiences he had as a Nigerian living in Santon Johannesburg like he wrote for those who do not know Santon is the equi of Johannesburg and this is the part I want to bring to you and I want you to comment on he goes on to say the best compliment I ever received from a South African came from someone I was fairly acquainted with. While introducing me to his wife, he said with a smile and his hand on my shoulder, quote, "Meet K.

[00:24:15]He's all right even though he's not from here."

[00:24:22]>> Well, that's the point.

[00:24:24]>> And and this is the thing. He actually believes and he's not the only one >> that you know afrophobia is endemic in the South African society.

[00:24:38]>> I think it's derived from traditional tribalist uh inclinations that we used to have Janelle created by the appetite system. What used to happen is that this level of segregation that the appetite system created within the psych psyche is that you still had this is us and this is them. So I could go there there stereotypes generated around myself as a closer person living in Guazu or a closer person living in in in zoo person or vendor person. Those generated stereotypes often uh resulted in violence. In the early 90s, uh, the upper tier government leveraged upon those divisions and actually created many civil war and the rad towards our democracy in order for them to collapse our own negotiated sentiment. And those stereotypes still continue to this day when you look at um um um um how we do not do the same for white people, it it is then becomes a self-hating blackness and an issue around the type of identity and around the blackness that we created in the post up. So the notion of however what you also see is that there's also greater integration within a African music especially afrop and a younger generation being accustomed to studying with colleagues from across the continent and therefore being immersed. So these attitudes are all derived from one's level of exposure to the continent, one one's level of integration to society in the community, but also one's level of desperation because we we see this common violence uh often being met up in in in very working-class community uh areas. Uh so you never see this type of violence and action in affluent or even middle-class black suburbia. It is largely in the working-class area and even in the CBD.

[00:26:28]It's largely where people are congregating in in in places that were designed for black people to live within the within the the CBD such as the host which which are closer to their minds.

[00:26:38]And that's why it was so easy to mobilize against those impoverished communities because now those those agitators have now created an enemy >> instead of resolving the problem South Africa faces. They've created an enemy out of fellow Africans. And what was the end result of what will happen as soon as we chase out fellow Africans from the township? It will not be South Africans that will be opening up any more tax shops. It will be these multinational white companies that will be further entering into our townships and further reaping resources from our impoverished people. So it is a situation where we're we're facing where the interests of capital are aligning with some of the interests of these individuals within the Syrian political economy and and facilitating and assisting uh in further um um resourcing these individuals because these people are really well resourced for people who to ship up and down between the country using flights mobilizing those many taxis food etc etc to mobilize against our people. So we need to be very conscious of the there is a this is not an organic protest that we've seen um but it is leveraging upon the economic crisis that's that has emerged post pandemic uh and the lack of jobs and the frustrations of the people and the lack of dem democratic dividends are used on the young people and blaming that on uh African nationals. But this is the second time you mentioned postpandemic, but this is not the second time. This, you know, it's not new. This afrophobia is not new. Yes, this time it has a different character. And I'd like to talk to you about that character a little bit later. I've written it down so I don't forget. But here's the thing though. Tell us is there so the ANC have something of a coalition government with the sort of farright whites or hard rights whatever you want to call them white um party in South Africa. What impact if any does that play in what we are seeing and indeed in this you know economic issues that is said to be causing this afrophobia.

[00:28:51]Well, the ANC is in a very uncomfortable relationship. So, with everyone pointing lives at each other over various pieces of legislation, the result of the land billation act disagrees with it to continue with it on the basis that the ANC wants these policies to be pushed through and they align the interests of the people. What what we're seeing is not necessarily the AC's alignment with these parties in terms of creating a coalition government that is the problem. It is how the people now have failed to hold the government even its new formation accountable even in its old formation accountable in terms of the issues around jobs and unemployment within South Africa rather than meeting up their violence against foreign nationals >> and and part and possible is is how how the ANC at time has remained silent in on these issues and does not has not provided political leadership resulting in people making their own assumption and creating their own narratives and then people pushing forward with their own agenda making Saka very susceptible towards capturing or or creating instability on its own. So when you engage now with with the common person so we see the new sensationalized news was these these protest was specifically targeted at high population density low-income areas and and and and in centers such as Ken and Kaden and no nowhere else in the country and on the basis that that is where the mobilization has happened due to the the resources these people have allocated.

[00:30:26]So this isn't that's what I'm saying in this instance it is unlike the 2008 xenophobic attacks um that happened but in this instance they're taking advantage of the current situation and and now blaming uh African migrants.

[00:30:41]So those are the two difference the major differences that I want to point out. The other aspect is is that there's a crisis of a new generation that that has forgotten about the liberation uh movements and the liberation struggle and what the African continent has done for us. Um instead the new generation wants to understand um what is the divididence of uh the the solidarity that we've got what are the dividends of our democracy and therefore now you get new rhetoric emerging uh even within the when South Africa was being sanctioned by who was being brutalized by the United States in terms of Trump's rhetoric against South Africa on considering a white genocide >> and people are even asking why why doesn't Africa come to us when we've sacrificed so much for So such sentiments are now being to fester on the basis of what is the return on investment that we're getting from the African continent itself.

[00:31:36]>> Indeed. So s such rhetoric so it's manifesting on on multiple layers >> and and and and however there has been a push back um um by the state at a state level but there needs to be a general conversation within South Africa including change of the curriculum for the public education about the role of the African continental liberation the potential of African unity.

[00:31:58]>> Let me interrupt you. Let me interrupt you because of time and I because my I was going to come to the education and indeed I was going to join that with the Panaffricans in future for Panaffricanism. Before this show started I was having lunch and I happened to be on um on Instagram and I saw literally it just you know how the algorithm behaves must have read my mind. Um, and there there's a clip that comes on where the these young people are saying Mandela does not speak for us. Mandela did not speak for us.

[00:32:38]The education and I have been to South Africa many times. So, it's not even like I'm not um it's not like I'm not familiar. And and one of the things that was clear to me, I'm trying to remember where I was. It wasn't Ptoria. I'm trying to remember where I was which was a South African provinces and I it was a university town and we were in the university space you know it was a festival and one thing that was very clear to me in that university was the segregation the way segregation is still so very prevalent in South African society amongst the young people the the young black people did not mix with the young white people even though they were all in the same university. So education why is it that education has been so neglected in South Africa given that part of the fight to ban apathide was because education was being denied to the black majority South Africans.

[00:33:47]>> It's it's not >> I'm going to give you two minutes but time is going. Yeah. I need to open up the lines. Yes.

[00:33:54]>> Political and historic education in the high school. In the high schools, all you taught about is the western world, the white people went to war in Europe and then this happened and then we happened and then we went into democracy and that's the story. So there's now currently a review of our history education syllabus to make it more paffricanis and stories around African history that are true and more nuanced towards us. So there is a process in in in that manner. But what has happened within South Africa's post democracy, especially with young people, is that they have not received any dividends.

[00:34:23]They feel that they have not received any dividends of our democracy. Meaning that they have since no form of upward mobility at all. And therefore, they believe our struggle heroes, they sold I don't know because they were supposed to be the beneficiaries instead of portraying themselves as the next level of leadership or we will take the country forward and take the baton towards uh the South Africa that they want. So it's an issue of not only the misinformation and sitting on on on the on on Tik Tok etc etc and and getting that misinformation. It's an issue of agency and them not willing to take up the baton uh similar to the likes of Nasel when they did when they were younger. And therefore when we engaging on issues around economic transformation within South Africa, we have to happen with open ar open eyes with a panaffrican outlook with an with an outlook of developing our our country with an outlook of it being integrated for the rest of region and continent.

[00:35:16]However, that message needs to go down to the grassroots and I'm afraid it has not happened that thus far >> because somebody decided to give a curriculum or to pass a curriculum that doesn't actually adequately, you know, robustly represent the history of South Africa in relation to pan-Africanism.

[00:35:35]Right, you can call now. I can answer your calls. 0201277 09930201-465719 or send a WhatsApp. You should have been doing that already to 089-597-5805 as long as you're not driving. Um I can't see the lines. The lines are open so you can call. Is there one? Okay. Not yet. Lines are open. So and and this is the thing. Let's talk about the future of panafricanism. You said sir Ramon Fosa whom by the way it's not even like I I I have anything against the man. Um indeed Africa was very proud the way he dealt with Donald Trump and you know what he's done since then and the way he's responded to the bullying of America since then. We love the fact that, you know, South Africa has been the hero for all of the global south in relation to um what's going on in Palestine, you know, Israel and Palestine and the genocide in Gaza. we you know and but here's the thing though this was also the year in fact it was only what last month that we had the UN finally got the UN declaration that slavery was the most and I I I'm not quoting precisely but the most horrific you know genocidal act in history and then we get this what is the future and and that was also you know my my my South African sister worked on that. So it was it was you know it was all there.

[00:37:12]South Africa was there. South Africa was that hero that was leading. Indeed there was even talk that South Africa could be taking over is doing better in foreign policy you know global foreign policy than Nigeria with regards to standing.

[00:37:26]But here we are. What is the future for pan-Africanism? Now whilst you do that let me answer that call. Think keep um just keep that question in your mind and let me try and answer. Hello.

[00:37:39]Can you turn off your radio, please?

[00:37:41]>> Okay. I'm sorry.

[00:37:42]>> Thank you. Go ahead. What's your name?

[00:37:44]Where are you calling from and your question?

[00:37:46]>> Yeah, my name is Dan P from Gondu.

[00:37:48]>> Dan P. Go ahead.

[00:37:50]>> Yeah. The question I want to ask this problem I have seen videos. It is not only their citizen assaulting other Africans. Their policemen are involved with the way they treat other African people.

[00:38:05]Why do their policemen don't do their lawful act and they engage in xenophobic attack attacking other Africans treating us bad as if we are we are prisoners.

[00:38:16]>> Thank you.

[00:38:17]>> Number one.

[00:38:18]>> Number two.

[00:38:19]>> Quickly quickly.

[00:38:19]>> Why is it that >> any little thing they say we come to take their job but they not ready to go and do this job?

[00:38:26]>> That's a generalization but I'm going to ask. Thank you very much Dampy. Hello very quickly 30 seconds ask your question. Hello.

[00:38:35]>> Hello. Good afternoon. How are you?

[00:38:36]>> I'm very well taken.

[00:38:39]>> Thank you very much. My question is I'm I want to first of all disagree with our guest that is the young generation that are doing the xenobic attack. It is not true. In 2015, the last Zulu king that died before the present one, his son was at a local festival where he openly promoted xenophobia attack on other people. 2015 it happened against Nigeria and the government of Nigeria then took an action. So it the older generation from among people who are even over 60 all of them.

[00:39:15]>> That is your question. I don't have time. Sorry to tell >> my problem my problem is that he should talk to that. What about the former Mizulu king who died?

[00:39:23]>> Okay.

[00:39:24]>> After some years back now who was promoting this xenophobia in the open place.

[00:39:31]>> Thank you.

[00:39:31]>> Thank you.

[00:39:32]>> Thank you very much. Right. Okay. We're in that fastpaced time lazi and we just don't have time. So I'm going to give you what can you do all of that in two minutes very quickly so I can squeeze in more >> including my panaffrican. No problem.

[00:39:49]So there is a a future within for Panaffricanism and it's enshrined within the African Union and the Afghan continental uh agreement uh and agenda 2063. That is the Panafan future that I want. But how if our governors could get their act together that then then we'll be in a in a correct space. Um oh damn shooting.

[00:40:12]>> Don't worry, keep talking. As long as you can keep talking, we get fire cuts in I mean power cuts in Nigeria. It's nice to see it happening in South Africa. It's never happened live before.

[00:40:23]And my studio assistant, you need to look here and see. This is great. As long as you can keep talking, keep talking.

[00:40:31]>> Apologies.

[00:40:32]>> It's no problem. Um >> uh uh so so in in >> the question about the police about the police that they see the police being part of it and Tit's question is to speak to that king who openly you know >> promoted xenophobia >> king the previous king has unfortunately died and his son has taken africanist uh posture um and That's why you see people from his tribe who are mobilizing on these protests. Um those are the ones who are mobilizing rather than the rest of the other eight to nine or potentially 15 other national nations who are actively mobilizing on this issue. So we have to be we have to be very pinpoint the actors on this issue.

[00:41:22]Um um and yes I do >> and and and the second second part is the police not doing the job but you the videos you probably saw were in Durban where it was the metro police who are basically the people who are doing the policing and not the professional national police under the public order policing they were doing the policing there.

[00:41:42]>> Um so that that is the investigation.

[00:41:45]>> Okay. I'm going to answer that call and I'm going to add this question.

[00:41:48]Currently we see a different character who um can you please answer that call but give me a second let me just ask this question we see a character remember I mentioned to you earlier >> okay hold on let me let this person speak hello >> evening >> evening Emanuel you have 30 seconds >> ask your question >> what I I agree with Mr. weather is not just the young people >> then what should we do about the uneducated South Africans who seems to be in majority unenlightening what should be the government be doing >> okay >> to to to stop this you know from happening in the future thank you >> thank you very much that's a very good question again um is about you know how do you how do you feed the ignorance of those who are actually perpetrating these crimes based on ignorance. But here's the other question I want to add to that is I said earlier that the one thing we're seeing in this in this this time is a different character. The character is changed because it's never it never goes on this long. I think this is now the third week and you know arguably it is being fueled or at least being given oxygen. Do you agree with me? And if so, who or which group do you think is giving it the oxygen? Could it be an international group, a an international or or a foreign country given South Africa's, you know, very strong stance against genocide, you know, at the ICJ? Or could it be anything else? Yes, they're telling me I have three minutes. I'm going to give you a minute and so you can do those and um you know I'll try and fit in any well there's no calls at the moment actually so I'll give you two two minutes.

[00:43:38]So funny thing is that we once met with a Syrian diplomat um um in in the human rights council and the number one issue around Africa has been xenophobia um and the number of countries including Israel utilizing the xenophobia issue against Africa um and those multilateral forum so >> behind this >> I'm not saying that but there are a number of parties that that the have support of Israel such as the patriotic alliance the action essay or very fairly and and and truly anti-immigrant um within South Africa's polit party political space and then we have the evolution of various uh groupings that various popup it first started off uh with oper operation doula uh now has manifested into um march for march uh and now there's another grouping of >> yeah march for march by the center yes >> yes which is which is now manifesting as another grouping um So those people are are now actively mobilizing um at a political level. So we have to be very conscious of the certain actors that are that are actually mobilizing and not the whole of society on the same matter.

[00:44:50]>> Okay. Thank you. I have a I have a post here which says please ask our guest what actions President Ramon Fosa has taken on this issue that represents quote unquote panaffricanism. asking me if Ramfosa is simply obeying table manners. If you're eating, you don't talk to remain in power. Africa is ashamed of the present traumosa we are seeing as opposed to the apathide version. That's chok from ikuru. We have less than a minute left. Would you like to respond to that?

[00:45:26]Um, President has issued out a number of statements opposing this matter. The ANC, the ruling party along with a number of members of parliament have spoken out out against this matter. The police are on the ground um are trying to monitor the situation. There will be arrest once the cases have been shut and uh we'll see progress over the next few weeks.

[00:45:50]>> Thank you very much. That's Lazi Sonia Sonia, forgive me, who is uh is focused on migration and regional stability and the political economy of conflict in Africa. Thank you so much for being on Border Lines.

[00:46:06]>> 9.3 Nigeria info. We'll be right back.

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