Speaker's Corner: THE BIG BANG OR A CREATOR? Physics Students With Smile2jaanah "unexpected ending"

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]You been to Speakers' Corner before?

[00:00:02]So, Speakers' Corner very similar to what you've said.

[00:00:05]People come of different beliefs, different, you know, political leanings or whatnot, and they come and they debate. Some can have a rational conversation like us without shouting.

[00:00:16]Or some you will see they will shout and I'm warning you in advance, yeah?

[00:00:21]There will be people that you will say this is this is not normal behavior.

[00:00:25]But um yeah, I'm sure you'll be able to tell the difference. But just out of interest, so when you look at the universe, I'm sure just like you think about everything else, you've probably thought about yourself and the universe.

[00:00:38]How do you believe that it has come to be? Chance? From nothing? Or do you believe that there is a creator?

[00:00:46]So, we have a scientific idea. But I think it there are always theories. We cannot be sure about something that we don't see.

[00:00:57]Even if we see, we are not sure about that because it's like a version of the reality.

[00:01:03]So, I mean I respect all the forms, but I think it everyone can have a free thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the basic.

[00:01:12]It's good to have like many ideas, different ideas. Because if everyone have the same idea, I think that's a problem. You're you're you're studying physics at uni? Yes. Okay. How many years you got left?

[00:01:25]2 years. 2 years. My friend he did physics A level.

[00:01:31]That he found difficult.

[00:01:33]So, the fact that you guys are doing this, I mean I don't envy you guys.

[00:01:37]But one thing I will say about physics though is that physics and science in general explains the how.

[00:01:45]Doesn't explain the why.

[00:01:48]And that's why even Georges Lemaître, he came up with the Big Bang theory. He's regarded as one of the earliest. He was a Christian.

[00:01:57]Isaac Newton, he was a Christian.

[00:02:01]Uh the one who came up with the scientific method, Ibn al-Haytham, he was a Muslim.

[00:02:06]Uh then when you look at even Charles Darwin, he said in his book, he said in my wildest fluctuations, I have never become an atheist.

[00:02:16]Yeah? So, even though Charles Darwin came up with obviously the theory of evolution, Georges Lemaître Big Bang theory, uh Isaac Newton gravity, but yet their scientific discoveries never warranted atheism.

[00:02:32]Which means that science definitely has its part to play in terms of how to explain the physical, but there is a metaphysical.

[00:02:42]For example, morality. We accept that there is morality, without which of course there will be chaos.

[00:02:48]And we accept that we believe in purpose. We believe in some level of consciousness.

[00:02:54]In science, they call it the hard problem of consciousness because I mean both of you guys can be watching a horror movie, but you'll be smiling, you'll be crying.

[00:03:02]And maybe you'll be smiling, you'll be crying, yeah? Why? Because your brain, or rather your mind, interprets that information differently.

[00:03:13]Now, how and what that means, you've got even scholars like Rupert Sheldrake, who'd be who was a scholar. I mean he graduated from Cambridge and I think he's done work with Harvard as well.

[00:03:24]And he gave a recent address in Cambridge talking about telepathy and things like that. So, there is a great discussion of things that are not physical.

[00:03:34]Yeah, and even science, it doesn't negate it completely, right? For example, dreams. Can't put dreams under a microscope. You can't check can't prove dreams like that. It's purely testimonial and experiment experiential.

[00:03:49]So, so bearing that kind of context in mind that, you know, we've got science and science informs us about the world, what would you say is the inference to the best explanation about how the universe came from what you know so far?

[00:04:09]We studied about the Big Bang, so I guess that's the truth, but we are so young, so I guess it's a little bit early to take a position about this deep question. I mean, it's a difficult thing.

[00:04:33]Well, here's the thing though. There are many theories about even the physical reality, right?

[00:04:40]You've got the theory of matter and form.

[00:04:43]Then you've got string theory.

[00:04:46]Then of course you've got, you know, the theory propounded by Stephen Hawking, the M theory. So, you've got all of these theories. Now, as human beings, what do we do when we're presented many theories? We falsify them.

[00:05:01]Right? We see which one is the inference to the best explanation. Which one makes the most sense to us and we hold that position, right? So, I would say we can do the same thing even when it comes to the universe.

[00:05:13]If we look at what the some people say universe came by chance.

[00:05:17]Yeah? Now, chance is ignorance of the variables.

[00:05:24]For example, if I roll a dice, you guys have done mechanics. In mechanics, they they tell you that look, this is a probability. Why? Why is it probability? Because we don't know all of the variables when we roll a dice. If we were to do in a controlled environment and we knew about the surface tension in our hand, we knew about gravity, we knew about upthrust, we knew about surface tension, we would be able to predict the dice, right?

[00:05:53]Similar with if an acorn is falling from the tree. We'd be able if we knew all the variables, we'd be able to predict it. So, chance is a ignorance of the variables.

[00:06:04]So, chance doesn't necessarily explain everything because it falls into a fallacy called the fallacy of reification, which means giving something intangible tangible characteristics.

[00:06:18]Like uh how how did the you know that that can end up on the grass? Oh, mother nature.

[00:06:27]What you saying mother nature came along and did this and not Mother nature doesn't do things.

[00:06:32]Mother nature's a a label that we've given something that we don't really understand, right?

[00:06:38]>> [clears throat] >> Or something that's abstract to us. An abstract thing has been given physical properties.

[00:06:45]Similarly, they do the same with chance.

[00:06:47]They say, "Oh, chance created."

[00:06:49]How can chance create things? It can't.

[00:06:52]Yeah? Chance is just our uh our explanation of ignorance of the variables.

[00:06:57]So, would you say I've given a good case that doesn't make sense that chance created everything? Do you think it's reasonable?

[00:07:07]I think it's a very difficult to think about it because if we study like the modern physics, there's still a lot of questions that we can't answer.

[00:07:16]And I think that the base of every like a religion or thought is to be open-minded.

[00:07:22]Because like you said, every theory needs to be I mean, it can change during the time.

[00:07:29]And then I think everyone should like have an open mind and be informed and keep thinking about it. It's a difficult question. That is that's that's true as a way of living.

[00:07:42]Yeah?

[00:07:43]You can follow a certain, for example, you will buy one shampoo.

[00:07:49]But it doesn't mean if someone buys another shampoo, you have to insult the person or you do this. You can respect the fact that there's choice.

[00:07:58]And you can respect, you know, you want you got extra dandruff. You can use the anti-dandruff one. You, you know, you need silk and shine, you know, you.

[00:08:06]You're very into, you know, the herbal stuff and you need organic things and that sort of stuff.

[00:08:12]But you will still buy a shampoo, right? So, similarly with truth, there is one truth, right?

[00:08:19]We can't have multiple truths. You can't say this if someone says this is a microphone.

[00:08:24]Someone say it's an elephant. Someone say it's an acorn. Someone say this is chips with extra vinegar.

[00:08:30]Now, you can say, "Look, we can have our opinions. I can respect your opinions, but the inference to the best explanation for me that I've come across is that it's a microphone.

[00:08:42]I will give you my evidence. I will hear you. I will respect your thing and we can agree to disagree."

[00:08:47]So, you can have and know the truth, but be respectful as well.

[00:08:52]So, so similarly, the same with these sorts of things as well.

[00:08:57]Now, if if I take your thing forward.

[00:09:01]If someone says there is no God and you say, "I respect you you're right."

[00:09:06]Someone says there is a God. You say, "I respect you there is right." Now, there's a contradiction.

[00:09:11]Yeah? There's a contradiction now. You can't say both are right.

[00:09:14]You have to accept that there's one.

[00:09:17]One of the options is correct. Either there's a God or there's no God.

[00:09:21]Yeah? But you can still say, "I respect your belief."

[00:09:25]Yeah?

[00:09:26]And reli- even Islam definitely, I don't know about the other faiths, but Islam definitely there's copious evidences in scripture and practically that Islam amicably is and lives and survives with other faiths as well.

[00:09:43]Yeah?

[00:09:44]Now, if we come back to this point, we can through the process of elimination say which one makes the most sense. That's why I said inference to the best Was the universe created by chance?

[00:09:56]Nothing? or created by something.

[00:09:59]Now, you guys maybe know a bit of logic, so you know live in it says principle of sufficient reason, which is every cause has an effect, right?

[00:10:09]Cause and effect. Things don't come without a cause.

[00:10:13]Yeah? If we start accepting that, then life becomes incoherent, science breaks down, geography breaks down, math breaks down, everything breaks down, right? So, every cause has an effect. For us to say that there is an exception to this, then an exception requires exceptional evidence, right?

[00:10:33]So, similarly when we say that surely the universe had a cause, somebody goes, "No."

[00:10:40]Okay, what do you think is a cause?

[00:10:41]Chance.

[00:10:43]But does chance create things? Can you give me an example? No.

[00:10:47]Because there's no example of chance creating something functional.

[00:10:53]You're free to give me a counter example.

[00:10:58]I have a vase. I smash it. It's not going to turn into a you know, a glass swan.

[00:11:04]There's an explosion. Whenever there's an explosion, people run away, and they call emergency services. They don't say, "Yay! It's probably a new building that's been made by chance."

[00:11:16]No, what do you mean created by chance?

[00:11:18]Oh, there's one in a billion chance that it could have turned into, you know, the Eiffel Tower.

[00:11:24]What's the inference to the best explanation? Okay, the inference is no.

[00:11:28]Inference is run.

[00:11:30]So, when it comes to everything else, we say, "You know what? It doesn't make sense.

[00:11:34]The world cannot come by itself. It doesn't make sense. Look at the objective design that we see.

[00:11:42]Butterflies.

[00:11:44]Even when you look at the arrangement of seeds within the sunflower.

[00:11:48]Even when you look at the leaves on a stem, they follow either Fibonacci sequence or the golden ratio, which is objective design, not design that we conjure up in our heads.

[00:12:00]Now, objective design requires a designer. I would have thought that that's a logical conclusion. If somebody goes, "No."

[00:12:09]What do you think makes more sense?

[00:12:11]Design requires a designer, or design happens with a one in a billion chance of by itself over billions of which makes the most sense to you?

[00:12:21]I mean, it's a very difficult question because like we are saying that if I mean, we we see we can see the patterns, but there's no physical evidence that it actually a fact.

[00:12:35]But I gave you the physical evidence, right?

[00:12:37]But I mean, it's a interpretation of the same.

[00:12:41]No, because So, here you No, no, I I follow what you're saying. Let's Let's roll with that.

[00:13:26]So, you might make the argument that one particular thing came by chance.

[00:13:31]Yeah?

[00:13:32]But then, the sunflower is part of a greater ecosystem.

[00:13:37]There are animals that only eat the sunflower, that require the sunflower for their existence, and they have the bacteria in their stomach to digest that. Right? Then they've got the teeth, for example, a lion is designed to eat meat. He's got canines, right? He's got incisors.

[00:13:55]But when you look at, for example, sheep, they've got flat teeth. Their teeth are not designed, nor do they have the bacteria within their stomach to digest the meat. So, when you start now compounding the chances, so the sunflower, then it's a relation with the animals around them, then the carnivores related to the herbivores linked to the sunflower, also linked to the conditions of planet Earth, that the level of oxygen and nitrogen because the nitrogen is higher than the oxygen, right?

[00:14:26]And then you've got because the oxygen, do you know where the oxygen majority of the oxygen comes from on planet Earth?

[00:14:33]No?

[00:14:34]No, no, no. It actually comes from these micro uh micro beings that are actually on the surface of uh the water.

[00:14:44]Yeah. So, that's where it comes from.

[00:14:46]Now, those small tiny tiny little things, now, how is it that they are enough that they are producing the oxygen enough for the sunflower to survive, that it's enough for the creatures that eat it, that are then eaten by the others, and it's all an all intricate system, and they then in turn have the organs.

[00:15:05]They have the organ systems. Then they have the org They have the cells, which have the organelles, which then have the uh the the DNA, that then have the genes, then have the the atom, yeah?

[00:15:20]That then have the protons, that then have the neutrons, that then have the quarks, that then have the neutrinos. Do you see? Like, maybe a person might think, you know what, maybe one thing came by chance. But when you compound this chance, then you've got the likes of physicist I think he's a physicist, Paul Davies. He says that the probability of even our planet being the way it is, to come the way it is is like one in 10 to the power 30.

[00:15:49]Many others have said many Many others have said more more than that. Yeah? But the point is that it's so infinitesimal, yeah? That we do not live our life like this. For example, there is a chance that we can be standing in the park, and, you know, five pigeons can you know, come together and do a giant duke on us, yeah? A nuke.

[00:16:16]But we don't live our life like that.

[00:16:18]There is a possibility that when you cross the road, that even if the green man is there, that a a car can still run into But you don't live your life like that. But when it comes to religion, I say we clutch to the infinitesimal over the bigger body of evidence, and I'm saying if we follow the same criteria of evidence, we would be more fair, and we would say if the chance of a creator is more because of our general thinking when it comes to everything else. And even if I was to take your point of evolution, we have no issue with that.

[00:16:54]Evolution and Big Bang, they are mechanisms.

[00:16:58]God is a creator of mechanisms, so we don't believe that they contradict each other.

[00:17:04]You can have Big Bang, you can have gravity, you can have evolution. They are mechanisms, but that still asks the question, where did the mechanism come from?

[00:17:12]Why was the mechanism enough that the sunflowers were able to grow and turn to the sunlight like you've said, that they are in the right places at the right time for the right creatures, the creatures that require that level of nutrients, etc.?

[00:17:28]And that's why I would say that the question of God still remains.

[00:17:35]Go ahead. Yeah, yeah, be honest.

[00:18:11]Yeah.

[00:18:13]Would you Would you say that we exist, and would you accept that there are two types of existence, dependent and independent?

[00:18:27]So, everything can be classified into two forms of existences, either dependent or independent.

[00:18:34]Or do you think that there's another form of creation?

[00:18:39]Do you think if there's an exception to this?

[00:18:52]No problem. But just like there are too many programs on Netflix, it doesn't mean that we are paralyzed in fear, right? We still go through them. There's so many choices in life, especially now.

[00:19:03]I mean, Dave Chappelle said that the children nowadays, they can go home and watch any movie ever made like that.

[00:19:11]Yeah, it's literally at your fingertips, but that doesn't mean that we're at home paralyzed with choice. We still make choice. Yeah, we still go through them.

[00:19:25]Do you think you will never have a favorite film?

[00:19:38]Absolutely. We We'll come to that example. It's a good example, yeah? But you said I think you misunderstood what I was saying, yeah? So, if there is existence, and there are two forms of existence, either dependent and independent, and us and the universe are dependent, then the question would arise, by definition, if we are dependent, the universe is dependent, dependent upon what?

[00:20:08]It has to be, by definition, dependent on something, right? Fantastic. And that thing we're dealing now with a deductively.

[00:20:19]Deductively, purely deductively.

[00:20:21]Then that thing is dep- is that thing dep- dependent on something? Dependent or independent?

[00:20:32]Now there's two options now.

[00:20:34]Either it goes on forever, dependent, dependent, dependent, dependent, or there has to be an end to that chain, which would mean that there is an independent end to that chain.

[00:20:46]Which do you think is coherent?

[00:21:08]But think about what you're saying, though. Let's deep this, yeah? So you're saying we're dependent, universe is dependent.

[00:21:14]Now dependent on dependent on dependent on dependent.

[00:21:20]How can something dependent exist by itself without an independent thing?

[00:21:31]But surely there has to be an end to that chain, because by the firstly, by definition, a dependent thing, for its survival, needs to rely on something, right?

[00:21:50]So you're confusing two things. You you're confusing inductive with deductive, yeah? Inductively, you're right that we're we're going by our observation. That's why I made the clarification of deductive, cuz we don't know, like you said, universe is dependent on this, we've gone down the line, and we can't observe that. So that's why it's a deductive argument.

[00:22:11]But now deductively, we're saying surely something which is dependent has to rely on something independent to exist, otherwise it becomes incoherent and illogical. It doesn't make sense.

[00:22:26]Because something, by definition, let me give you an example.

[00:22:30]If you see a mobile if I if I threw the mobile phone on the floor, and you asked me, "Why did you throw on the floor?" I said, "Because I asked him."

[00:22:40]And then he asked him.

[00:22:42]Then he asked him.

[00:22:44]Then he asked him.

[00:22:45]Then he asked him. We can keep going, going, going, going, going, and you become tired.

[00:22:51]You have to conclude the end of that chain, there was somebody that said, "Throw the phone."

[00:22:58]Otherwise, the fact that the phone has been thrown doesn't make sense. Why was it thrown if the condition was that I will throw it if somebody tells me to throw it? So for something to be dependent and survive, they have to get that from an independent thing, otherwise the chain can't start. You can't start the chain off from a dependent thing, sorry. From from a dependent thing. Yeah? Let's just say the first thing was dependent. By definition, dependent on what?

[00:23:37]Yeah.

[00:23:40]Yes.

[00:23:46]Yeah.

[00:24:11]But both are physical, right?

[00:24:16]That's physical. The example.

[00:24:19]Yes.

[00:24:21]And the universe is also physical.

[00:24:23]Yes. Dependent on physical.

[00:24:28]Which one?

[00:24:32]Yes.

[00:24:38]Okay. So so that means that you are restricted to So you're saying that the only thing is the law that works on this planet, right?

[00:24:50]Is that Is that the point that you're saying?

[00:24:53]But then we Because an independent thing in the universe would make it dependent.

[00:25:23]Because the universe is dependent, right?

[00:25:37]No problem.

[00:25:38]I'm I'm patient. No worries.

[00:25:46]What language is this?

[00:25:48]Italian.

[00:25:53]It's a bellissimo argument, you know?

[00:25:56]Yeah.

[00:26:01]Shall I just add one more thing in while you're thinking of the word, yeah?

[00:26:05]So let's just say, for argument's sake, you say that there is infinity. It goes on for infinity.

[00:26:10]That's been refuted again by the fact that there is movement.

[00:26:15]Let's just say that there is a planet that has been rotating for infinity.

[00:26:23]Yeah?

[00:26:26]If it continues rotating, that would mean you are adding to infinity.

[00:26:35]So a planet that's been rotating for infinity, each time it rotates further, you are adding to infinity because a new rotation has happened, right?

[00:26:49]Yeah?

[00:26:49]But that means now there's a problem.

[00:26:53]Let let Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. I'll tell you, and then you can jump in. Because the more rotations it's doing, you're adding to infinity, and by definition, infinity cannot be added to.

[00:27:04]You're trying to exhaust an inexhaustible.

[00:27:08]Yeah? You're trying to add to something that simply cannot be added to. Infinity is infinity. If you're adding to infinity, it's no longer infinity. If you're taking away from infinity, it is no longer infinity. Go ahead.

[00:27:29]Exactly.

[00:27:45]So surely, let's just say today it's reached it you can still you will see it spinning, yeah? And then it's about to complete the rotation. Now when it starts the new rotation, is that part of the previous one, or is it a new one?

[00:28:02]Has that rotation happened before, that particular one that's about to happen?

[00:28:07]Or is it a new one?

[00:28:13]Here we're talking about movement, and remember time is movement.

[00:28:17]You know you guys know physics? Distance equals Yeah. DST, right?

[00:28:24]Uh what was it?

[00:28:25]Movement. Speed is distance over time.

[00:28:29]So if there's movement, there is time.

[00:28:30]If there's no movement, there's no time.

[00:28:36]Right.

[00:28:41]So in other words, a bend in time and space, that's gravity, right? Now theoretically, though, if everything stood still, everything, would there be time?

[00:28:52]No. If everything stood still, not talking about mass at the moment.

[00:29:02]Look into this when you get a chance, yeah? Look into this. If everything stood still, there's no time.

[00:29:08]Check check this. Check this. So coming back to the point, yeah?

[00:29:12]So Wa alaykumu salam. If there is movement, then there is time. So here, the new movement that's taking place is adding to infinity, which again doesn't make sense. If you don't like that example, us moving over here.

[00:29:26]We're adding, right? Adding to something which is supposed to be infinite, which again doesn't make sense.

[00:29:41]Right.

[00:29:43]Even though we're living in the infinite, the fact that we are doing things that didn't exist before means by definition things are being added to. For example, there's a box and there are 10 apples in there. If I'm putting things in there that were not in there before, I am adding to it.

[00:30:07]No problem. Give me another one.

[00:30:23]Okay, yeah, yeah.

[00:30:27]For example, yeah.

[00:30:43]I don't understand what you're saying.

[00:30:48]Right.

[00:30:49]Yeah.

[00:30:51]We Okay, brother, let me just finish this here. Okay.

[00:31:08]Even if you maybe use other examples, there's a theory that says that if the universe had been around forever, then there would be there would have to be an infinite amount of stars.

[00:31:21]So, when we look up at the night sky, there would be so many stars that technically speaking we wouldn't even have a night time.

[00:31:29]Just think about it. You've been around for infinite.

[00:31:32]Now, the amount of stars, they can't be any black space because it's infinite, right?

[00:31:37]So, that that maybe is an example that you can maybe vibe with.

[00:32:08]The first universe.

[00:32:12]Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. The preceding universe. But but you're still now having You've just pushed the problem back now, right? You're saying that this universe is one of millions of other universes, but the question still arises.

[00:32:26]Yeah, what caused those universes?

[00:32:29]And where did those universes come from?

[00:32:31]Okay, they came from a black hole. Is that black hole dependent or independent? Okay, that's dependent.

[00:32:36]Dependent on what? Something else dependent. Okay, is there an infinite regress or is there an end to that chain?

[00:32:43]Right. So, if you have an infinite regress, then what you're now saying is that that infinite regress is number one things are being added to.

[00:32:55]Yeah, like I talked about movement.

[00:32:57]And we can even say well, movement {slash} time. Because things are being added to, it's incoherent with an actual infinity.

[00:33:06]Because I'm sure you accept that an actual infinity doesn't exist, right?

[00:33:17]Like what?

[00:33:50]But nothing created a changing form only started at the Big Bang.

[00:33:55]Right?

[00:33:57]Exactly. But what we can say axiomatically is whatever is before the Big Bang by definition has to be dependent.

[00:34:14]No problem.

[00:34:15]But there would be two options though, right? Either what preceded the Big Bang is dependent or independent.

[00:34:21]There is no other option.

[00:34:31]But then again, there are many ways to think about physics.

[00:34:34]You guys don't say when you're learning about speed or time, oh, there's many ways to talk about time, therefore we won't talk about time or we won't have we won't hold a position on time.

[00:34:44]Oh, there's many definitions of mass, there's many different definitions of species, there's many different understandings and definitions.

[00:34:55]Yeah.

[00:35:03]Right.

[00:35:14]Right. I got your point. So, there are some points that we gather experientially, right? There are some that we get axiomatically. So, what I'm referring to, these are axiomatic truths or necessary truths.

[00:35:29]For example, there being dependency and independency, that's a necessary truth.

[00:35:36]The definition of species or the definition of time, that's not a necessary truth. That's inductive and you're absolutely right, that can change tomorrow. Yeah? So, there is something which is a priori which we can gain without our five senses and there is a posteriori which we get through the senses. I think maybe that's why we're talking past each other cuz you guys are referring to the physical, I'm referring to the immaterial, the axiomatic. Yeah?

[00:36:06]Uh so so, that's the difference and dependency and independency is a priori.

[00:36:13]It's not going to change tomorrow.

[00:36:14]Something dependent will not become independent tomorrow because by definition something is dependent if it can cease to exist even if you can consider its non-existence.

[00:36:29]If you can consider its non-existence, then it must be dependent.

[00:36:34]By definition.

[00:36:40]Yeah. So, So, cause and effect.

[00:36:50]Cause and effect, we would argue is a priori. Yeah?

[00:36:55]Actually, that's not a good example.

[00:36:57]Huh?

[00:37:03]What sort of example?

[00:37:06]Of a a priori thing?

[00:37:17]And and with regards to the physical, Yes.

[00:37:28]Yes, yes. So, for example, when when you're talking about the definition of time, yeah, when you're talking about the definition of species, when you're talking about the Big Bang theory, these are all physical these are all based on our inductive faculties, it's based on induction, right? That we we look at our observations, if there's enough observations to match our hypothesis, it will be passed as a theory.

[00:37:52]However, there being existence, yeah, that's something that's axiomatic.

[00:37:58]For us to do anything, we have to accept that there's existence.

[00:38:03]Even though it can't be put under a microscope, even though it's not physical, we have to accept there's existence.

[00:38:14]>> [laughter] >> But then, are you saying that there's that you might not exist?

[00:38:24]Or or that Sorry, that there is no existence.

[00:38:29]I I sorry, I just want to hear this answer. Remember your point though.

[00:38:33]Do you believe that it's possible for there not to be existence?

[00:38:49]Okay, now listen to what you said.

[00:38:51]It's something that we thought.

[00:38:55]That's pre That's presupposing a we and that's presupposing a thought.

[00:39:01]So, there is existence.

[00:39:04]Yes.

[00:39:25]Created or labeled?

[00:39:38]You think you exist, therefore you exist. Not like that.

[00:39:42]Not like that. Okay. But I I am human, so I think I exist. I don't think a wolf would think that's the same thing.

[00:39:53]Because you saying I think presupposes a mind, right?

[00:39:56]Yeah, but like a wolf would never think about something.

[00:40:03]I think a wolf would be purely um objective.

[00:40:15]Who won't be objective? A wolf?

[00:40:17]An animal. Animal. How do you know? How do you know?

[00:40:22]I I don't think an animal would think um I exist.

[00:40:28]Thomas Kuhn, he's written a paper, peer-reviewed, right? He says, and he gives the examples of bats, we as human beings will never know how a bat views reality.

[00:40:39]We can superimpose our understanding on it. If we see an animal maybe rising to what it seems to us rising in pain, we will label it as pain.

[00:40:51]But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's in pain.

[00:40:55]But science can know when an animal is in pain.

[00:41:00]Also But pain itself is not a physical thing, right?

[00:41:04]Pain is not a physical thing. It is physical.

[00:41:09]Is that the Is it objective sense of the pain?

[00:41:12]So if I was to open up a human being, I'd be able to see pain?

[00:41:15]Yeah.

[00:41:16]Also I'd be able to see I'd be able to see flashes of electricity, but that is not pain, right? Even if I'm elated, that will be electricity. Even if I'm angry, like then you know what I mean. Sorry, I just went like this, but you were looking that way.

[00:41:34]So that might That's not pain, though.

[00:41:37]That flash of electricity is not pain, right?

[00:41:40]It's It's an interpretation of the electricity, correct?

[00:41:45]So again, it's our understanding of the electricity that we are interpreting as pain.

[00:41:52]But still it's physical. So if But just because it's physical doesn't mean it's pain. I've I've met certain warriors. You go like that to them, and they're like They feel nothing.

[00:42:07]Yeah.

[00:42:10]When you do that, the nerves but both that slap are a signal in the brain, and the brain felt something. The brain felt something, or the brain interpreted it?

[00:42:24]That's it. Brain doesn't feel things.

[00:42:27]Ah.

[00:42:31]It's like a reading a pattern.

[00:42:33]Yeah. A pattern. Reading a pattern and concluding.

[00:42:37]If I read a pattern, doesn't mean I'm feeling that thing that from which the pattern is coming, right? Reading a pattern is different to feeling it. So because the brain is interpreting something, doesn't mean the brain is feeling it. The brain is interpreting it as pain. You might go to certain cultures in which they don't regard that as pain. Go to certain bros, they go like this, "Hey!" They don't interpret that as pain. They interpret that as love.

[00:43:04]Yeah? You go to somebody else, like I saw one guy, he won a fight, and his sensei, you know, punched him in the face. He interpreted that as respect and go, "Ah."

[00:43:15]Yeah? Why and you go, "Ah."

[00:43:17]He went like that. Why? Because it was a source of honor for him. He didn't go like Do you see? But still the signal of of the punch went into the brain, and it felt um pain.

[00:43:34]But then maybe that punch was never regarded Yeah, you must have also happiness.

[00:43:44]So you have also the pain and also the happiness.

[00:43:48]How do you know if it's happiness or if it's sadness? Um molecules Molecules don't have anything to do with uh uh Um Electric signal? Electric signal. Uh a molecule.

[00:44:05]The molecules?

[00:44:06]>> Yeah.

[00:44:07]How?

[00:44:10]Serotonin.

[00:44:12]Yeah.

[00:44:13]Our hormones. Yeah, hormones, yes. The molecules. Okay, but not to be inappropriate, but there are certain practices that people do in which they get pain, but they feel elated.

[00:44:29]Yeah? You know what I'm saying, yeah?

[00:44:32]So they are going to release a different type of hormone. Does that mean that that thing that they are getting But they said that you said hormones.

[00:44:41]They are getting a happy hormone, like dopamine release. But you still feel pain.

[00:44:47]But You can't say that it wasn't pain, but you can say it also brings happiness.

[00:44:54]Okay, let's take one step back.

[00:44:57]So how do you interpret if something is painful or not? The electrical signal or the hormones? Because in this example I've said there's dopamine that's been released.

[00:45:06]Not Yeah, dopamine. Not cortisol.

[00:45:09]Yeah?

[00:45:10]Based on the body's physical chemistry, a scientist or a chemist would be able to conclude that that person felt happy, not pain. If you're saying, "No, no, no, we have to look at the electrical signals," then we have to look at how the brain has interpreted electrical signals. And we know very little about which part of the brain is an indication of what type of emotion.

[00:45:37]Sometimes we're able to say, "Oh, that part of the brain indicates happiness."

[00:45:41]But if the person becomes brain damaged, then it moves to a different part of the brain. So we have very little understanding on brain physiology and where emotions, feelings, and memories are localized. That's why I'm trying to pin down where you believe it's coming from.

[00:46:09]Give me 1 minute, please. Uh can we speak after this, inshallah? But the gentleman, he need the help. He was prophet prophet and Brother, this brother is fitna. I spoke to him last time, and he just shouted. Too much shouting. He doesn't want to listen. He doesn't want to listen.

[00:46:26]I asked him last time very simple question. How many gods died on the cross? And he couldn't answer.

[00:46:35]No problem. No problem.

[00:46:38]So uh how did we even get to this point?

[00:46:43]Yeah, okay. So So if we then um So now, so you were saying in terms of experience, things that are learned experientially, and things that are learned non-experientially, yeah? A priori, or a posteriori, yeah? So I'm saying, and we talked about existence, and you talking about how you believe that you exist, your mind, etc. etc., yeah? So I'm saying that if a person casts aspersions on whether there is existence, then everything falls apart.

[00:47:15]Then your physics degree falls apart.

[00:47:17]You even speaking to each other falls apart. If there is no existence, there's nothing. There's a question mark on everything. Then there is no morality.

[00:47:24]There's no I would say experiential certainty, not epistemic certainty. Experiential certainty. So what I'm saying is, according to the principle of sufficient reason, according to our understanding of design and things that are either created by chance order as opposed to chaos, all evidences point towards a creator as opposed to a non-creator.

[00:47:57]Then when you look at the definition of an independent, could there be many independent beings?

[00:48:04]No, they can't be because an independent everything relies on it, and it relies on no one. So if there are two independent beings, that means one of the independent beings does not rely on the other independent beings, therefore by definition not everything relies upon this. So it can't be independent.

[00:48:24]Becomes logically incoherent. So as Muslims, we believe that there is a God, there is a creator.

[00:48:33]The creator, like we were doing, can be rationalized, philosophized, and even when you're looking at certain empirical things, you can reach the inference to the best explanation that there is a creator, logically, rationally, philosophically.

[00:48:52]Then it makes sense that that creator, being the all-wise, and us being limited, has not just let us be because we believe him to be all-wise. So he has tried to communicate to us. And lo and behold, ah, this is the translation of the scripture that he has sent us. Yeah? It's a translation, and you guys are welcome to have a read in your spare time.

[00:49:18]See what your creator has said to you.

[00:49:20]It's a translation, though.

[00:49:22]And if something comes from the creator, we believe that there have to be certain criteria.

[00:49:29]If a book comes from God, surely we have to have it in the same form that it was when it was revealed, otherwise it's no longer there.

[00:49:38]And as Muslims we argue and we debate and we discuss and we reason. When you look at the Bible, Old and New Testament, it has been changed. When you look at the Vedas, it has been changed.

[00:49:51]Even when you look at modern religions like Sikhism and the Guru Granth Sahib, the original manuscripts, there is there is inconsistencies and there is a lack of evidence for us to verify the original Guru Granth Sahib. The Quran, however, is the only holy book that we have chains of narration and manuscripts dating to the time of the Prophet, peace be upon him.

[00:50:16]We read it in the original Arabic and we memorize it also.

[00:50:22]And Arabic is a living language. It's the fourth or fifth most spoken language in the world.

[00:50:28]Jesus spoke Aramaic.

[00:50:30]New Testament was in Greek.

[00:50:32]Christians do not speak Aramaic. It's UNESCO said it's uh it's fast becoming extinct.

[00:50:41]Hebrew, the language of the Old Testament, only, you know, Palestinians in Palestine speaks it. Yeah, I mean they claim that they Israel but Palestine, yeah.

[00:50:52]So then even when we're looking at, for example, the evidence within the Quran, the Quran has a falsification test.

[00:50:59]Yeah, the science has a falsification test as well. That typically speaking, if you present a theory, best practices that that theory attempts to be falsified.

[00:51:12]And then if it's not falsifiable, then we can put it forward. That's best practice, yeah.

[00:51:18]So same with the Quran. The Quran has a challenge in there that if you believe it was sent by anyone other than God, produce a verse like it if you are truthful.

[00:51:29]And you have non-Muslim scholars like Angelika Neuwirth, not even Muslims, non-Muslim scholars, yeah. That say that this challenge was not met by the original, the Arabs at the time of the Prophet, because their level of Arabic was unparalleled. But there are other challenges. For example, if it was revealed by anyone other than God, in it you would find a lot of contradictions.

[00:51:53]In it you would find inconsistencies.

[00:51:55]Even when it comes to the concept of God, Christians, as you go through the park, they will tell you, if you ask them honestly, they believe uh that Jesus is a fully God and fully man, which is, of course, a contradiction. It doesn't it doesn't make sense. How can you be fully God and fully man? Yeah, Jesus was limited in knowledge, but he but God is unlimited in knowledge.

[00:52:22]So how I'm not Christian.

[00:52:25]I'm not Christian. Yeah.

[00:52:28]I don't think it's like that because I'm I've gone to many Christian schools.

[00:52:33]And God is Christian God.

[00:52:37]And Jesus was uh he's human more.

[00:52:44]Can't say that.

[00:52:45]That's the heresy of modalism.

[00:52:48]I studied like that.

[00:52:50]It it was Okay.

[00:52:51]No, go ahead. Go ahead.

[00:52:54]So so yeah, so Italians are are Catholics, right? Generally speaking. So the Catholics accept the seven ecumenical councils. And the seven ecumenical councils are clear, unambiguous in their depiction of Jesus. Uh in fact, it's in the Council of Ephesus that it says that Jesus is fully divine and fully God, undivided, unconfused, unchanged. And those are you can check this yourself. Anyone who denies this, they are like 12 12 or 12 plus anathemas, i.e. heresies that you become uh a heretic. So for you to be a Christian, you have to accept that there's Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All three are co-equal, co-eternal, but three individual beings. Jesus himself was fully God and fully man.

[00:53:48]He is independent, yet he is begotten, or rather he is eternally begotten by the Father. I'm choosing my words very carefully cuz I don't want to upset the Christians, yeah. So they believe he's fully begotten from sorry, eternally begotten from the Father and the Holy Spirit is eternally generated from the Father, yet they are both independent, which again is another contradiction. It doesn't make sense.

[00:54:16]But that in itself, because think about it, if Jesus was only man, then Jesus dying on the cross holds no significance for the Christians cuz they have to believe God died for their sins.

[00:54:27]Again, emphasized in the Council of Ephesus, which is something accepted by the the Catholic Church. So based upon that, their belief in God doesn't make sense.

[00:54:37]Yeah, that if if Jesus is God and the Father is God, according to the law of identity, the Father has to equal the Son.

[00:54:48]Yeah? I'll say that again. If Father is God, Jesus is God, therefore the Father equals the Son, which goes against the law of identity, which is a very important principle of uh of logic. So what I'm saying is that comparatively speaking, because you mentioned that there are so many theories and you mentioned as well, I just wanted to come full circle. I I appreciate you guys being patient, so I'll I'll wrap up.

[00:55:13]That when you look and you compare the logical consistencies, you will notice that evidentially Islam is more coherent. Practically, Islam is more coherent. Philosophically, Islam is more coherent. Logically, Islam is I can go on.

[00:55:33]So like that, then then you ask yourself, if something truly comes from God, should it be coherent or should it be incoherent?

[00:55:42]And that's where my argument would be, something that comes from God has to be coherent cuz God himself says that had it come from anything other than God, in it you'd find loads of contradictions.

[00:55:53]Like it says, "Qul hu Allahu Ahad." Say he is God, the one, independent, pre- and post-eternal, and there is nothing like it. Very simple definition of God. Ask a Christian this, "What's your definition of God?"

[00:56:06]Uh God is all kind, all merciful, and you know, he's the all powerful. Okay, was Jesus all powerful?

[00:56:13]No, no, no, he needs human form.

[00:56:16]In his in his human identity Okay, so but was that human identity God?

[00:56:21]But wasn't wasn't both the human and the divine in one person?

[00:56:28]Becomes very technical. I don't want to bore you with the details.

[00:56:31]But that's in a nutshell. Do you have any questions about what I said about the Islamic aspect? I know we discussed about the other aspects. Anything about Islam that you guys want to get clarified?

[00:56:44]Sorry? I know very little about So you have the Quran now?

[00:56:50]You you have the Quran now.

[00:56:53]Uh sorry, I'm just he's a heckler, yeah, yeah.

[00:56:55]So when it comes to the Quran, you can read that and I would say and we as Muslims will welcome this as well. At Speakers' Corner, if you see, when you're walking down the street, be someone with a table that says Quran on there, uh come ask me questions.

[00:57:10]Have have questions. Yeah, because as Muslims we don't mind because something that comes from God, not everyone's going to understand it straight away, but as Muslims it's our responsibility to inform people, to help people.

[00:57:25]And yes, we can be accepting and respectful of other people and their beliefs, but we can have our own belief and you guys can have your own belief and believe, you know what, this is the most rational.

[00:57:37]Yeah, and this is the most logical. And then you guys can, you know, you know, then progress beyond that.

[00:57:45]Yeah.

[00:57:47]So yeah, thank you for your time, guys.

[00:57:49]And uh hope you enjoy your time here.

[00:57:51]Any other questions? I'll be here. Come back to me, yeah.

[00:57:55]Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, you smelt.

[00:57:58]Yeah, yeah, yeah, you smelt.

[00:58:04]What was your question?

[00:58:06]Get lost, mate. Get lost.

[00:58:12]I don't believe in your prophet.

[00:58:22]Sorry, guys. Yeah, I just leave it here.

[00:58:25]Uh we don't we don't We should defend him.