Conversation with Eldridge Ind. CEO Todd Boehly & MassMutual CEO Roger Crandall | Global Conference

Added: 2026-05-23

[00:00:00]Thank you for joining me on stage. I feel like we should first just take a moment to acknowledge that you both have a long history together. I'm fortunate that I'm moderating almost a reunion. I mean, you guys have been working together what, since the since the late 90s in in some shape or form.

[00:00:14]>> Yeah, I was the analyst that put together a CBO that Roger did while he was a high yield portfolio manager at Mass Mutual. He teamed up with uh Nick Brady and we did a $500 million CBO uh back >> with with emerging market >> a big a big >> Russ including the Russia dollar bond that never defaulted but traded in single digits which helped change the OC rules for CBOS going forward.

[00:00:39]>> Do you think if I could have timeraveled to tell you both back then that you'd become kind of titans of the industry to become at the helm of Mass Mutual would that have surprised you or did you see greatness within each other this >> No, I had no idea what I was feeling.

[00:00:51]I was happy to stay employed after that bond trade to nine.

[00:00:54]>> I say I think you guys knew something about what you were doing because you've you've made it here and look this is such an interesting time because again you know both Eldridge and Mass Mutual have won a company that has a storied history and Eldridge which is newer but has been pioneering with a model when it comes to insurance. Roger if I can start with you because you've been doing the company has been doing private placements you know since 1870s.

[00:01:19]How much has the playbook changed? I know we can't have time for a whole history, but people coming around to private capital like it's just emerged out of nowhere. Like this is a new this is a young industry. H how do you sort of view that?

[00:01:30]>> Yeah. So look, Mass is about to have its 175th anniversary and we're still owned by our policy holders. So any policy holders here, thank you for being a member of the company. And if you go back to 1851, there was no public debt to buy, right? So, we were always buying illlquid assets uh to match against longer duration liability. So, that's just kind of what we did. Uh and I think that's a key is you've got to make sure that you're lined up with uh with what your liability structure looks like. And then what we do is monetize illquidity and complexity for the benefit of our policy holders. And that's what private assets let you do and create a more diversified portfolio than you can do in what can become very concentrated uh indexes. So, it's been part of the company for literally 175 years. And when it comes to Eldridge again, the insurance model came about with security benefit first in Guggenheim and and you spin that out. How do you kind of compare your model to a traditional insurance one?

[00:02:24]>> Well, if you look at what most traditional insurance companies have done over long periods of time, most of their exposure is to, you know, fixed rate investment grade debt. And I think when you go back and you look at like 2014 to 2024 and you look at how the high yield bond index did on Bloomberg, you'll see that cumulatively that 10-year period, if you owned investment grade, US investment grade fixed rate debt, you generated roughly 28% cumulative. So we're always looking for how do we increase the rates of return?

[00:02:58]How do we move up the capital structure?

[00:03:00]How do we have more control over the outcomes? And you know if our model has always been about you having more control through investing in things that we know really well and rather than outsource the investment activity, our plan has always been to to to grow our businesses uh you know and finance them.

[00:03:20]And then you know the concern that people raise is okay well are you stuffing your balance sheet with things that are bad? And we're like, well, we own nine billion of equity, right? It's kind of like, you know, when you go through uh a security and you're flying private and you're the only one on the plane. Yeah, I guess I have to go through security. I'm not going to blow myself up. Uh but the the reality of it is is that our model has always been about how do we find capital structure that we can build and how do we get, you know, in a position because even like a DraftKings, right? We did a $100 million loan to DraftKings and it was convertible so we were affiliates but we were the first hundred million out on the capital structure. So as long as DraftKings was worth $100 million, you know, we were going to be fine. So our job is to figure out how do we use structure uh in order to control outcomes and change the profile because if we can take the negative zero scenarios off the table and only be playing for zero and up, you know, we think that risk profile is fantastic.

[00:04:23]>> And a lot of people have found this model to be a really attractive one.

[00:04:26]Roger, I'd love to get your thoughts on what you make of the private capital industry as a whole, adding on insurers, acquiring them, doing deals. What do you think of this trend? Yeah, I mean look it's it's it's well it's well established. I mean it what started in my mind is trades which were driven really because of low interest rates and valuations of publicly traded insurers being very low uh and releasing kind of capital to allow them to return capital to shareholders started as trades has turned into an understanding that you can't really think about asset origination without think about liability origination. And so we think about a flywheel kind of connecting those two. And kind of to Todd's point, you know, I had an old boss and he kind of hammered into me, it's like if you take care of the downside, the upside upside takes care of itself, right? So if I can earn premium spreads to where public like credits trade and I can structurally protect myself against downside. That's just going to create, you know, better outcomes. But the real beneficiary here is our millions of policy holders, right? It's every day somebody is getting an extra half a point return on a on a FIA, an extra, you know, 30 basis points on a three-year MA. And that helps Americans be prepared for retirement. And that's really, really, really important. So people say like, who's going to finance all this? And the answer is my mom.

[00:05:38]>> Right.

[00:05:39]>> Right. And everybody else in America who wants to be prepared for their own retirements. Um, so I think we really do something that's important and and you have to think about these two pieces together. So it's not a surprise to me that asset managers ended up here. Uh and it's not a surprise to me that frankly traditional incumbents are a little nervous about that. But but we're very deep in right now if you take a look in the annuity space uh you know you know quote unquote private equity owned which I'm not even quite sure what that means anymore uh insurers are a significant percentage of of new sales.

[00:06:10]So uh I think I think capital coming into markets is good. I think it ends up providing Americans retirement security but critically it also provides the raw material to let America grow. We can't build data centers and finance office buildings uh and uh and and finance uh the reindustrialization of the country without capital and that capital comes from people and the insurance industry is a critical part of of of that connection.

[00:06:33]>> But just on on kind of a a point you noted this idea that what's backing you are the policy holders. I mean Todd was basically saying he's very incentivized to make sure that everything is secure.

[00:06:42]He's not going to blow up his own plane.

[00:06:44]How do you sort of how do you sort of look at that model when I mean obviously you have skin in the game if you're you know parents or policy holders but how do you look at that model differently to make sure that financial incentives are as aligned as they are in sort of an elder model.

[00:06:59]>> Yeah. Look, I'm not I'm not sure how what could be more aligned than the company being owned by the policy holders. Right. Our our whole industry was effectively mutual up until uh the early 1990s with the the real estate collapse that kind of started the restructuring of the whole insurance industry. Um and and of course regulation changes along those ways as well. I mean the current regulatory system we have kind of came out of all that. So there's a regulatory side.

[00:07:22]Incentives matter. Obviously people who own equity don't get to get don't want to get wiped out. And those of us who are are stewards of of companies not as owners but as policy owners. We're just we think about things in a multigenerational way. Uh and and if you kind of keep that in mind it sometimes really just helps clarify you know kind of how to focus on things. I think Todd, there is sort of this this viewpoint out there of private capital that is taking on insurers. You know, I I once talked to someone of one of your big peers who's publicly traded that was like, "We have unlimited money because of the insure. We literally have unlimited money." And there's this viewpoint that they're basically just taking this on because they want cheap capital and it allows them to, you know, do everything they want to and maybe skirt some not completely skirt fiduciary responsibility, but that's very much so the lens that it's looked through. How do you kind of push back to some of that sort of negative narrative around this model?

[00:08:13]>> Listen, I think the insurance industry is a perfect place to be financing the development of the country, right? I think if you look at the liability profile, you have very long-term liabilities that allow for compounding from point to point and you know the banking system when you look at what you know whether or not it's a adequate place to be funding the development of the country you know you've got money that can disappear overnight. You've got short-term funding you know with a a view that you have long-term uh you know assets and ultimately those two things are going to diverge. And anytime you've seen uh that model break down really it's because the the the short-term funding disappears, right? And the assets have to be sold. And I think if you've got long-term horizon and you're thinking about pointto-point and how do you keep compounding, you know, because the whole idea that, you know, private credit is bad or public credit is good.

[00:09:09]Ultimately, these are derivatives on enterprise value, right? So when you're sitting in a capital stack and you're looking at what's going to make my loan good or bad, it has nothing to do with whether it's private or public. It has everything to do with how much risk is there relative to the value of the underlying business. So when you start to think about how important capital structure is to derisk the downside, right, from my point of view, you know, the more that you can kind of move into the secured land and have really good collateral, which is why we're in the equipment leasing business. and you know because ultimately we've had 35 defaults over the last 10 years but we've had 104 cents of recovery. So we're constantly looking for ways that you know we can be compounding from point to point without having to worry that you're you know you you the the the rug gets pulled out from under you because of the fact that you know kind of people change their opinions on you know whether they want to be funding you know a bank or not.

[00:10:05]Couldn't I though make that argument then for retail products for private capital for private credit specifically that you're running into the problem that you're describing that you solve by having an insure? Does that rapidly not make sense?

[00:10:16]>> No. I I I mean I think ultimately if you look at the BDC's and you look at the wealth products, right, and you think about like what is the risk profile? An average wealth product in the wealth channel is probably 50 cents debt, 50 cents equity. So, if you have a billion dollar fund, you've got 500 million of of funding for it, and you got 500 million of equity, that 500 million equity is probably looking to get paid 10, 11, 12% cash on cash. And let's just say that there's a 10% writeoff, which would be historical, right? So, let's just say there's a 10% writeoff. You basically give up two years of income, you know, in order to to to basically generate the 10 or 12. And if you have the liquidity restraint and you need to return 5% per quarter, right, you basically are paying 20% back per year, you have five years to amortize off with a loan book that's on average going to mature, you know, kind of five to sevenyear maturity. But the reality of it is is that these things mature or pay off well before their maturity. So the average life of the average loan is something like three or four years. So if you can't manage the liquidity in that context, right? And of course, if you're not willing to be gated to the 5%. Then you shouldn't be looking to get paid the 10%. Right? So ultimately, this is all just risk and return. And when people run for the the the uh the exits at the same time, that's usually a good time to be buying just like it was in ' 0809 when the crisis hit and the high yield bond market and the loan market.

[00:11:43]You could buy the low market at 55 cents on the dollar. Well, the reality is is that's, you know, you know, people see risk at 55 cents, but what you're really doing is buying something with so much cushion relative to what the underlying worth. The real risk is when you buy it for 100 cents, right? So, you just have to figure out how to ride these waves.

[00:12:03]And there's no better funding vehicle than an insurance company than to take advantage of that, right? And it's like Buffett did it, right? He was the one who figured it out, right? Right. and and you know he was figuring out a long time ago you know how to get long equities and you know be short on the on the funding side to the to the insurance and he made a great margin and he did that for a long period of time. Uh so I think the the reality of the is that the the the rest of the world's just woken up to what he knew a long time ago.

[00:12:31]>> Roger how do you feel or see these sorts of potential duration liquidity mismatches? I mean, look, you didn't you had to go back and look what happened with the the the private REIT explosion to get a preview of what was likely to happen here. Tons of capital comes in.

[00:12:47]Um, you had fiduciary distributors who decide that an asset allocation to private assets helps improve their their clients. They put people on the shelf.

[00:12:57]Money pours in. Hard for an asset manager to say, "Don't give me the money." Right? Um, and so we saw what happened with with all the big private REITs. Frankly, the same thing has now happened with the the private credit interval funds. There was an actual issue in real estate, right? There was this little thing called COVID that kind of completely changed the interest rate environment which for long duration assets was a disaster and we had a structural change in demand for office and we're still working our way through that. What's interesting here, there really has not been a systemic credit issue, right? There have been a couple of idiosyncratic uh fraud issues for sure and there's the worry about what AI might do to software and that's a a legitimate worry but it's kind of interesting. You kind of take a look and you know basically the credit has worked out. So again, all you needed to see was what happened with the real estate side to know it could happen. And I think frankly, it's healthy, right? The products will evolve, but at the end of the day, for people who have the capacity to to hold through, you're going to earn higher returns through a cycle with with these assets. So, um, not fun. Uh, can it certainly impact a public markets valuation view of the value of the management company? Yes, indeed. Right? We've seen what's happened there. Um but uh in terms of the actual kind of underlying product, I think when we talk about what happens in this period of of of financial market history 10, 20, 30 years from now, we're not going to be talking about what happened with a couple of private credit BDCs. We're going to be talking about the impact of technology and how it changed the whole economy.

[00:14:28]>> That's an interesting point that that's not the lasting impact of this current this current environment. It's not the BDC outflows, it's technology. But Todd, if that is the case, is it something that could lead to significant widening of spreads? Do you think we've fully priced in the technological disruption that we're likely to get? Is there more pain to come in this market? Could we see a credit cycle? Listen, I think we have we've been through a lot of cycles over a long period of time and it's just natural to have cycles and you have things that get built up and then you have a cleansing and then you have a picking up of the of the the yard sale and then things tighten again and it's just you're you're riding a wave and what you're really trying to do is to figure out how do I eliminate the downside? How do I derisk myself?

[00:15:17]Because ultimately we're all in the riskmanagement business and by you know being using a capital structure using covenants using documentation you know these are all things that you can use for your advantage uh you know and in the broadly syndicated world right you got a world where the documents see what happens is the banks go from competing on pricing to competing on documents and you know if you end up in a world where spreads are very tight and documents are getting very bad right that's a good time to be kind of exiting the scene and going looking for something else to be doing. So to me, one of the things that we're always focused on is how broad of a funnel do we have so we don't get lost in a single product that goes through, you know, one of these cycles because if you look at defaults in the corporate bond market, right, they happen by industry, right? And as long as you avoid the industries that get sick at that moment in time, right, you're going to materially outperform. So if you go back and you look historically right it's all industry spikes or default rates spike within industry right right now the big debate is what's going to happen with the software business right and there's so many different types of software businesses right there's software businesses that are attached to infrastructure that infrastructure is going to keep that business safe there's software businesses that are attached to system of records right so uh ultimately you really have to understand what's the risk profile of the underlying business, right? In order to understand how do you feel about the the credit? And ultimately, you know, I think one of the things that people are nervous about right now is that some of these software businesses aren't going to have real enterprise value and they're just melting ice cubes. Uh so, you know, but again, so far it's really been a handful of frauds or or uh you know, one or two outliers. It hasn't been a theme where we've seen real sickness come over the industry causing the defaults.

[00:17:13]>> And what what do you think, Roger?

[00:17:16]>> I think it's much more likely that we have a situation where spreads widen at some point then they tighten significantly further. We're sitting at very long-term, you know, cyclical tight levels. Um there will be industry issues. I I think what will be different here um is there's a lot of discussion about the asset side of the balance sheet and there is less discussion about the liability side of the balance sheet and I think the new entrance um in the industry have have have learned a lot about liability management but um you know that's changing too um what we do as an industry is we sell options to individual investors and we may or may not sell them at a price they can be hedged in the capital markets And the exercise of those options is changing with the implications of technology. Good distribution folks are helping their clients exercise options embedded in their insurance contract against insurers and that's an evolving thing, right? So, you know, you can try to do all the hedging of all the Greeks and that's all great and you can do a lot of things, but at the end of the day, policyholder behavior is a tough one to hedge. M >> so I think as we roll through the next asset cycle how the liability side impacts will be important. Todd made a a really great point. You know we think about the banking system as being safe.

[00:18:34]Well the banking system is safe because we all support it as taxpayers, right?

[00:18:38]We just had significant bank failures just in 2023 from the big rise in short-term rates. And in fact it was almost comical when you went and looked at what the so-called stress analysis were done in terms of policyholder behavior. We had the first run. I've got my phone with me that was driven by a couple of tweets, >> right? Yeah.

[00:18:56]>> So, you know, now the good news is is our our products are much much much harder to run on, but but but understanding liabilities is a key kind of part of all this. So, I think what you know, the next quote unquote crisis will be kicked off by something. Who knows what it'll be? There should be some spread widening at some point. I don't know if we're going to see another 55 cents on the dollar senior stuff again. I hope not. That was a little too tough. I'll just take 70 cents maybe. Uh you know, you got to pick a line. Um but I do think I think understanding the liability side is important. Uh and uh and I and I think the investments are getting made and we understand them better. But I think as the technology works its way through there. That's something to watch for sure.

[00:19:38]>> But typically when you have a cycle, regulation follows that.

[00:19:40]>> Y >> and is that something that you would be preparing for now too that if we get a cycle, regulation will change over your industry? Absolutely right. I mean, so first regulators historically regulate the last crisis.

[00:19:51]>> Yeah.

[00:19:51]>> Generals fight the last war and and and regulators fight the last crisis. I do think the global system is is in a much much much stronger position today than it was going into the last big crisis 08 and09. But look, we've got different regulatory regimes around the world.

[00:20:06]Frankly, we have different tax regimes around the world as well. And capital is mobile, right? And it's really really really hard to work your way through and think about every contingency because all the smart people here are in the business of figuring out all that. I do think the the the the trend that we've seen of consolidation both of asset originators and asset managers as well as liability generators and originators ultimately creates a safer system and the and the diversity of ownership is a really really really powerful thing.

[00:20:38]Right? So, I remember the world where every bank in Texas went under when oil went to eight bucks because all they did was invest in Texas, right? We're now in a world where if there's a loss, it's distributed across the whole world.

[00:20:51]That's actually a safer world. So, um it's incumbent upon us as as participants in the system to work with regulators to make sure that we're thinking ahead because none of us want a scenario where the equity loses money or heaven forbid our policy holders lose money, right? that is a break of trust that we don't want and and that that's what we're doing I know as as as companies in our industry.

[00:21:14]>> It does seem though that there has been more noise from regulators and maybe it's driven by the media um you know be it the BOE or ECB having governing members there talk about private credit uh whether it be you know our own reporting suggests that the Treasury reached out to individual firms asking them about their exposure. Todd, does it feel like we're getting closer to a moment where regulators have some sort of say in this industry and what what could that even look like?

[00:21:39]>> Well, I think they've had some sort of say for a very long time. True.

[00:21:42]>> Right. So, and and I think you've you we've seen it, you know, spike up uh and and people are focused on like you know, Roger was saying kind of the last you know, crisis. uh and I think ultimately right what's going to happen you know to to me I think the insurance industry is is uh headed towards a you know a big change I think if you look at the technology there's more hundred-y old insurance companies than any other industry in America and that's a testament to the quality of the business model but I also think it's also uh resulting uh in uh you know tech systems within the industry that are you know antiquated and so I think we're going to start seeing the the the tech evolution uh you know of the industry and costs are going to come out of the industry because the reality is you know we're just moving digits around right we're making promises we're backing them with both assets you know as well as equity and those promises are based on you know people's expected uh you know needs over a long period of time as they're looking for retirement income and we've got more people turning 65 in the US than any other industry we have hundreds of billions of this product ultimately and people are thinking about I don't want the ROE or the return on the asset. I want to know what the cash flow is and ultimately it's uh you know our job to be able to manage those cash flows over long periods of time uh and to be able to figure out how do we compound at the top uh in order to make sure that we deliver those rates of return. and the regulators are going to continue to be part and parcel of the story. Uh because of course they're there to protect the individual and the consumer. Uh you know, but I also think that you know protecting the consumer uh you know is also the capital markets are doing it left and right. And one of the great things about you know the US you know is our capital markets are are so clear uh you know on who's winning and who's losing. Uh and that's going to be one of the the the great um uh equalizers here.

[00:23:48]But I think the insurance industry, the technology that we're seeing, you know, the evolution of that is going to change dramatically. And I think you're going to see the Robin Hoods and the SoFi and the JP Morgans are really going to drive, you know, the insurance industry, uh, to be much more consumer friendly because historically it hasn't been.

[00:24:05]>> Well, at Eldridge, you're, you know, more of a slim machine that can make decisions, that can change, that can implement technology. How do you do that sort of thing, Roger, at the big ship that is mass mutual? How do you implement technology when you have maybe a little bit less of that agil agility than an Elderidge would?

[00:24:24]>> Yeah. You know, it's interesting because, you know, Todd just mentioned all these companies and one of the mentioned is JP Morgan, >> right? So, not exactly a young slim startup. I'm not sure if they're slim or not slim, but they're a big company.

[00:24:35]They've been around a long time. They've been regulated a long time. I think one of the fascinating things that's happened in financial services is in fact how much the incumbents have changed. Right? So I I don't see that there's any big issue with a a large company. Now will it take us time because of different uh um you know the number of platforms and and again it's it's you got to really think about it. A checking account is a checking account is a checking account. FDIC comes in on a Friday and says congratulations your checking account is moved over to the new bank when a bank fails. I've got 150,000 policy holders that have been with us 50 years or more. My oldest policy holder is 104 and she's been with us 91 years, right? I don't know what system she's on. I mean, in all honesty, it's old, right? And guess what? I don't really have to worry about moving it in a minute, right? So, what I need to do is is frankly manage it safely, right?

[00:25:27]Because let's not forget we got cyber issues rolling in the background and everything else. And that's probably the biggest challenge with these older systems and Mythos has made it even maybe scarier. Um, so I want to make sure number one I keep things safe.

[00:25:39]Number two, people aren't moving around a lot because you haven't thought about it, but your mortality costs go up every day, right? So if you bought a policy from us after three or four years, if you haven't moved already, you're probably going to be with us till the end. And that's great because I don't have to worry about kind of but I do need to make sure that I'm responsive to consumer needs in terms of how easy it is to to to bring new business on board.

[00:26:01]And that's really important for our distribution partners. So we're investing a lot in that. We're investing in AI but frankly I'm going to do it carefully um because the risk of messing it up is not particularly exciting compared to the >> are you partnering with any foundational models or anything like that? We we're we're we are we're working with we're using multiple models because frankly we are worried about getting locked into one ecosystem and them having us raise the price like crazy which we've seen happen in the SAS world right so we're loving working with anthropic and claude and we're loving working with open AI and working with Microsoft and my guess is some of the open LLM's models could end up being maybe the right answer for really big institutions we'll see what happens there but the key thing is is I'm connecting subject matter experts with the technology ologist because it's not technology per se. It's the how do you use it and kind of how do you play it but it look it should drive efficiency and the vast majority of that efficiency is going to get passed along to our policyh holders. I mean, it's a enduring business model as Todd's mentioned, but this is not exactly a high return business, right? It's like if you can, you know, write long-term liabilities and have your equity earn low double digits over a period of time, that's about where this business is. So, it's the reason it doesn't trade at six times book >> in the capital intensive kind of parts of the capital market. So, we're doing that, but we're doing with this kind of view of better customer experience, better agent experience. Because at the end of the day, no one wakes up in the morning and buys our products. They have to talk to a financial professional. I think some of the things you've done in particular kind of connecting into that ecosystem have been been really helpful for everybody.

[00:27:38]>> Yeah. How do you want to push forward with that Todd and some of the changes that you've made especially as it comes to incorporating technology?

[00:27:43]Well, you know, we've started this company, Zenia, that I've been on a long journey with and um you know, it's uh been uh something that um you know, was now we can manage a policy from basically the time that it's ordered to the time that it's resolved. And you know, that's been a a journey to be able to get there. But the uh uh the the quality of the experience keeps getting better and better. you know, the standardization of the the rails. Uh we think we're well situated to to be in that conversation with the the JP Morgans of the world who are looking for a really good customer experience, right? That's what they don't want. They don't want to outsource the customer experience and then find out that their client who ended up buying a policy is frustrated because they can't get the the data they need. I mean, I have a a policy from John Hancock and it still gets written in my Mel account every year. So it's amazing to me that we're still in that, you know, point where, you know, these things aren't integrated at all. But the business model of insurance has been so robust that it's never really focused that much on customer service because once you've had someone for 3 years, their odds of leaving you are very low. But I think that's the the that's that's going to change with the new consumers who are going to be used to different experiences and the insurance industry is going to have to meet them there. It sounds though that it might be a slow movement towards that just because of what you were describing. Listen, everything moves slow in insurance, right? So that's the reality of it. Um, you know, and the decisions get made and then things get prosecuted and ultimately you have a year to do this, you have two years to do that, you have three years to do that, you know, kind of underwriting standards have on the on the on the how whether or not it was AG43 or AG33, those things have evolved.

[00:29:33]So, you know, but then over time because the model is so strong, you can get from point to point as you continue to evolve with the regulatory regime.

[00:29:42]>> What about using it internally? I mean, Roger, do you think your talent needs change? Do you can you work with a slimmer staff?

[00:29:49]>> You know, look, I think there's there's no question. And when people talk about what happens with jobs and AI, things like the insurance industry which have a large number of relatively lower pay white collar type workers are are frankly most at risk and I think this is going to be something uh for everybody everybody to watch. Uh and just like we saw what happened to bluecollar workers as the US economy opened up to the globe. you know, remember uh uh you know, the whole process going back to the early 1990s. I think that is frankly a risk and our industry is one of the places um frankly along with healthcare where it's going to be the tip of the spear of that playing through.

[00:30:32]>> I I feel horrible I've ended on this note because we could do a whole other 30 minutes on on just that alone. But unfortunately, we are out of time. This out of time has been so fascinating.

[00:30:40]Thank you both. Everyone, please join me in thanking Todd and Roger.

[00:30:43]>> Thank you. Thank you.