Why should young Kiwis stay in NZ when Australia pays more? | The Front Page

Added: 2026-06-03

[00:00:03][music] Koda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the front page, a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald.

[00:00:16]Australia has just handed its lowest paid workers a 4.75% pay rise, lifting the minimum wage to just over $25 Australian an hour, which is about $32 New Zealand an hour. That means a full-time worker across the Tasman will now earn at least 1,04 Aussie dollars before tax or $1,216 Kiwi dollars. Here, the minimum wage went up just 2% this year to $23.95 an hour. Even our voluntary living wage at $29.90 falls short of Australia's legal minimum. At a time when rent, groceries, petrol, and power bills keep climbing, the comparison is stark. So, what does this say about how New Zealand values its workers? And why on earth would any young person want to live and build a life here? Today on the front page, New Zealand Council of Trade Unions President Sandra Gray is with us to talk about the growing wage gap, what it means for workers here, and whether New Zealand is in danger of pricing itself out of its own future.

[00:01:30]>> [music] >> So Sandra, we've heard that about 100,000 of Australia's lowest paid workers are getting a pay rise [music] of 6% from July and 2.7 million workers on award wages are going to get a 4.75% increase. So that's the minimum wage.

[00:01:46]What was your first reaction to this?

[00:01:49]>> Well, the first reaction uh is go the Australian unions. Isn't that incredible? that that hard work of the Australian unions is paying off and benefiting workers across the country in every industry. But also um they've worked really hard to get in place the Fair Work Commission which is the body that does this work uh on raising the minimum wage and raising uh wages overall as a result. So um it is a really nice thing to see in a time when what we've seen in New Zealand is just a squeeze on people's incomes. Does New Zealand not have a fair work commission?

[00:02:25]>> So our minimum wage is set by the government of the day. They are supposed to take advice, but it's not independent like the Fair Work Commission. It doesn't have uh the level of expertise and it doesn't bring in the unions and employers to talk about what is needed.

[00:02:43]So, um, ours is set very differently and I think the biggest difference is that you've got unions and employers at the table in Australia with the Fair Work Commission experts looking at this and going what actually is needed for workers to continue to have decent lives.

[00:03:00]>> Yeah. And it's clearly working. Hey, cuz I saw that New Zealand's living wage is sitting at 29.90. That's been increased this year. That's now below Australia's minimum wage. Does this suggest that our minimum wage is just no longer remotely uh keeping up with the pace of the rise of cost of living?

[00:03:20]>> The the minimum wage uh in New Zealand has actually gone backwards uh since this government came in over the last three years. The increases that have been given to the minimum wage have been well below inflation. That means uh that everyone who's on a minimum wage is $3,000 worse off. Now, these are people who already are struggling to pay the bills, struggling to cope with the cost of living, and the government's made them $3,000 worse off. This is just not the approach we need. And we kind of have this little bit of a lie in New Zealand, uh, which is that we need low wages to keep the economy going. The economy is not going well. Wages are low. People are fleeing to go to Australia because of good wages. This is not a recipe for success for New Zealand.

[00:04:04]>> Yeah. How is it even possible that Australia is increasing the minimum wage by this much? Uh well, I s saw the post actually Henry Cook there reported that our own ministry even pondered a 0% so nothing at all but they ended up with the 2% increase for the minimum wage. So if Australia can deliver uh a bigger increase and better wages, why can't New Zealand?

[00:04:27]>> We can afford to do better wages. We can do better by employees. Of course, it does mean for some companies slightly smaller profits. It does mean that the government has got to ensure the tax takes allows for them to pay public servants. Well, we can afford to do it.

[00:04:43]We just have to make the choice. And what it means if we actually had a decent uh minimum wage and then of course all other wages uh were also keeping pace with say Australia. Um you would see better productivity. You would see people digging in more at work. Low wages uh also cost New Zealand really dearly because there's about 130,000 New Zealanders on the minimum wage or below it because there are a couple of rates below that. Um and those people are you know having to use food banks so they're using charity or they need uh tax credits like the family tax benefits they get or accommodation supplement. So we're having to top up all the time people's wages just so they can afford to live. that's costing us lots and lots of money. Whereas, if we actually tackled the primary problem, which is our wages are set too low, uh we would all be so much better off.

[00:05:38]>> Who is the most likely to be on the minimum wage? What kind of jobs?

[00:05:42]>> Well, the the jobs are usually in um people who are in casual work and retail and hospitality. Women more likely to be on minimum wage. Moldi and Pacifica more likely to be on minimum wage. and the big one which is young people. Now often people say well that's because they're just starting out but you know we're not giving them a great start uh to life if we're constraining their income so much they can't save for a house they can't look after themselves and they've got to seek additional state support. So we you know we need to do better for all of those groups of people. But it doesn't just affect the 130,000 workers who are at or below the minimum wage. It affects their families and their communities.

[00:06:24]So, we're not seeing people spending money in their local communities on local business um you know, buys the things that they need. We're also seeing people going into huge debt to cope with the cost of living and that's really costly for them and their family. So, you know, it's it's a really poor situation in New Zealand.

[00:06:43]>> Yeah, this is just a complete random aside and that's only because um my producer decided to wear a coat this morning that he hasn't um been able to fit in for for a few years. He found a receipt, a countdown receipt in his pocket from April 2018. He was obviously having uh a burrito night. And so we were able to go through the receipt and see and compare how much each thing cost now. And just to give you an example, a a 1.5 L Coke Zero vanilla in 2018 cost $2.50. Now it's $4.99.

[00:07:18]Uh and that's just one example. Given how expensive it is to to live here, to eat, to keep a roof over your head, uh to put petrol in your car, or basically do anything in this country. Are you surprised when young people do go across the ditch for greener pastures? I suppose >> we should never be surprised that people are making the choice to leave what is is a poor wage, you know, a low wage economy, but also actually where working conditions aren't great because, you know, when you look at other working conditions, we have a worth worse health and safety record than Australia as well. So, the conditions of work aren't as good. So, it is a real pity for many many families that basically they're seeing the next generation say the only option is to go overseas. We do need to turn that around and we can turn that around. What we need is a government that actually has an economic plan and you know we haven't seen much planning from this government that seems to make sense. Small business and medium-siz businesses are saying it. You know community and voluntary sector are saying it. We need to talk about what we want as a country in terms of wages, in terms of equality, in terms of the good life. What is it to be a New Zealander and to have a good life? And it's not just the money uh but it is certainly the money plus good working conditions you know the ability to spend time with your family have time off all of that needs to be protected. Australia has had a much greater respect for unions and the role of unions in ensuring strong working conditions that look after people and make sure that you have a good life. In New Zealand we've seen a wholesale attack by this government on the place of unions in addressing those issues. So we've we've got to not just work on the money side, we've got to work on the respect side that workers are valued, that them standing together in collectives called unions is a really good thing because it lifts the whole country.

[00:09:19]>> Yeah. And those working conditions as well, I mean it may come as a shock to you, but I am Australian. Um, and in South Australia, it's actually compulsory to have long service leave after 10 years at a company. So, here I am planning my, you know, four month cruise or something. You know, I was looking up, you know, things to do. I might go to Europe or something. Um, and then somebody, you know, mid, you know, me talking about this actually said to me, "No, it's not compulsory here.

[00:09:47]You've got to check your contract. It's got it's in your contract. It's not in my contract." Uh, so my travel plans were immediately halted. So even things even small things like that that you would expect you know um in Australia my my brother works hospital for instance and and after a certain time of night you get an extra you know whatever um on weekends you get weekend rates like things like that we don't even have here I mean where do you even start?

[00:10:14]>> Well we start with uh looking at the employment relations act and saying it is no longer protecting workers uh in the way that it should. We start by saying the whole country has to agree a system which values workers and um values them working together to get good working conditions is a great thing. Uh but this means that we have to have a government uh that agrees that inequality rising rapidly rising inequality rapidly rising uh child poverty 30% of food bank use is people who have jobs. So these are people who have a wage and still need to use food banks that that is not what they want for Altereroa and they have to say well how do we address this? One thing is you make sure workers can work together to get good conditions, but that they can engage with employers on making sure we have great places to work and high productivity because we know when workers feel valued and are able to contribute to their workplace fully, you actually do better as a company. So we just need a change of attitude in New Zealand and to realize that we can learn a lot from countries who have valued unions, who valued workers, but also look at the minimum wage, not as a um well, we'll just keep them just just above the poverty line. The minimum wage should allow families to do things like go and visit Nana and Papa on the weekend, you know, have the occasional meal out. And I don't mean the extravagant uh kind of flash restaurants, but just be able to go um and maybe buy some fish and chips and take them to the beach and sit and eat them. These things are out of reach now for ordinary working families. And uh we've got to address that really rapidly. Australia's been able to do it.

[00:11:57]I mean, even their budget, they gave some relief because of the fuel crisis.

[00:12:01]New Zealand budget, nothing nothing about the fuel crisis. uh instead we're just going to invest in, you know, building more prisons and building more roads and putting money into the military, hardly addressing the needs of New Zealanders. And when we see the Minister of Finance actually interviewed about it, she seems to brush off the growing inequality, the growing poverty, and just say, "Oh, well, it's just a choice." Well, it's not a choice New Zealanders want.

[00:12:28]>> Yeah. And it's kind of hard to, you know, be all in this together and get the country back to a surplus by 2029.

[00:12:34]and let's all do this together. The team of 5 million when you can't afford to eat that week or you can't afford to uh send your kids to a soccer practice because it costs too much or something.

[00:12:46]In terms of who where the buck stops, is it the fault of businesses, government or like a little bit of both, do you think?

[00:12:55]>> Well, the the regulation and the legislation has to be set right to allow workers to have some protection. So we do have to have that set right and that's the government's job uh to work with business to work with workers um because we know there's a difference in what workers can ask for on their own and what they can ask for under good legislative frameworks that allow unions to operate. But we do need New Zealand businesses and many of them do to really value workers rather than seeing them as a cost on the books and only a cost to see them as the people who actually create the profits, create the goods and services, create the wealth in New Zealand and value them for that and give them over what is their share of that amazing work that we do as workers in New Zealand. Um so we've got to actually change that attitude with all employers now and in particular um you know we need to make sure that the big multinationals coming into New Zealand aren't actually exploiting young workers aren't exploiting uh people who have nowhere else to go for work and when unemployment is so high it's it's rising to 5.5%.

[00:14:07]uh you know it makes finding jobs really really hard. It also means that workers are less sure of tackling those issues like what's my my you know wage, can I have leave? Can I turn down a shift and not come on that weekend cuz I've got a family wedding. All those things become harder. And I do think we need to change the idea that somehow raising wages uh will um lead to um more jobs being created because that's one of the myths we have out there. Actually, at the moment, the minimum wage is going down in real terms and unemployment is going up. So, there's no correlation between low wages. Low wages don't create [music] uh job growth. They they just create poverty.

[00:14:56]Westpak Bank and A&Z came out says it won't have any inflationary impact. Um but also, you can just look at the evidence. Every year there's an increase for these workers because they're the lowest paid Australians. [music] Their wages overall aren't very large.

[00:15:10]So when they get an increase, [music] it doesn't have any knock-on effect to anyone else. Um but of course for them, right, that they're not going backwards and that's really important because their rents have gone up. Um their fuel's gone up, everything else has gone up. So it makes a huge difference for them and their [music] families.

[00:15:26]>> We're always worrying about obviously this brain drain. Australia is taking all of our young people from us. And at this point, I'm not surprised in the slightest, but I suppose we should talk about the benefits of maybe starting your career in New Zealand. Are there any benefits?

[00:15:40]>> New Zealand is a great place to live. We know, you know, those of us who live here know all that it is. Um, you know, but I think what we're wanting to see is a government that actually starts to bring forward our vision of a New Zealand where everyone thrives, where, like you say, kids can play net on the weekends or rugby on the weekends and everybody can be engaged. Um, I think, you know, there are benefits to being uh a long way from the instability of the world. In some ways, we feel quite uh protected because of our distance. Um we also have something amazingly unique in that New Zealand has a very strong of course titi bringing making New Zealand feel different than other parts of the world of course because it is such a distinctive uh set of values tikka copapa so there are some great things about being here the trouble is at the moment as voters we aren't able to clearly articulate and we need to keep talking about this what we want from government. We need to say we want an altera where people thrive. We need to say it often and we need to stop accepting their excuses that they have to balance the books and they couldn't change the tax system. If we think we want to invest more in our young people and we want to do that through a change in the tax system, why shouldn't we do it? Uh if we want to be a country that really cares, that really has strong communities and very little poverty, we can do it. We just have to make that economic decision.

[00:17:15]>> Yeah. And and the fact of the matter is after doing the numbers and crunching the numbers, you know what, like a 21-year-old uh barista, right, on a minimum wage uh will immediately getting the same job in Australia if they want to move to Melbourne or somewhere cool like that. They will immediately get $300 New Zealand dollars a week extra for doing the exact same thing. They will likely be spending less on food.

[00:17:40]they will likely be spending perhaps a little less on rent uh and you know still have you be be in a cool city and enjoy everything and and make friends etc. So, I mean, what would you if if if that 21-year-old barista came to you or a retail worker and asked you whether they'd be better off moving to Australia perhaps tomorrow, what would your what would your answer be to them?

[00:18:04]>> Right. At the moment with youth unemployment so high in New Zealand, with the wages so low, if they were people close to me, I would do the obvious thing which is yeah, if you've got a secure job over there and you've got somewhere to go, go and get your, you know, get your working life kicked off with proper money. But also the other thing I'd say, you know, being around a lot of young people over the last few weeks with um student associations and young workers at a fair number of forums, um I would also say to them, speak up, stand up. It's your altera that we're building. Um and they are they are standing up in New Zealand and saying, hey, we don't like the way the country is going. We want something better and we're prepared to fight for it. And I, you know, would caution any government that ignores the voice of young workers, young climate activists, and and the students of New Zealand.

[00:18:54]They really do know that they they want to stay here. They just want a reason to stay here, and they want a country that they're proud of. So, you know, I'd say go and join join your union, join your student association, join the local climate action group. You can make New Zealand the way you want. You've just got to put your boots on the ground.

[00:19:12]>> Thanks for joining us, Sandra. My pleasure.

[00:19:18][music] >> That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You can read more about today's stories [music] and extensive news coverage at nherald.co.nz.

[00:19:28]The front page is hosted [music] and produced by me, Chelsea Daniels. Kane Dicki is our studio operator. Richard Martin, our producer and editor, [music] and our executive producer is Jane Ye.

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