This dialogue offers a sophisticated breakdown of Kay’s narrative architecture, illustrating how the interplay between perspective and contingency shapes our understanding of history. It is a masterclass in treating genre fiction with the analytical depth usually reserved for the classics.
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Guy Gavriel Kay's Lord of Emperors (Sarantine Mosaic 2) with Evan and Kyle
Added:All right. Hello everyone and welcome back to the G G >> R. Yeah, we did it. Yeah, that was our best one yet, right? Yeah, >> we pract We practiced that.
>> We're pretty coordinated there. Um I feel like we should have been cheerleaders now or something, right?
>> I mean, eight eight videos in, I think we should know. We should [laughter] know.
>> We are halfway through the GGGKR. This is our halfway point. Uh, Lord of Emperors, book two of the Serentine Mosaic. This is what we're going to be talking about today. We did previously discuss the first book, Sailing to Serantium. And for that discussion, we had the wonderful Allan from the library of Alexandria with us. Kyle was supposed to be with us for that, but he fell ill.
Allan has no good excuse for not being here, but [laughter] he's not here.
>> He didn't He didn't get what Kyle got.
>> No. No. Well, I he actually has an excuse and and and we love Allan and we miss him. Uh but he could not be here for this today. Uh unfortunately, so uh unfortunately uh because he'll miss the chariot racing discussion that we're going to have.
Sorry, Alan. Um you know, but say Levie, but I'm sure I'm sure that uh he will appreciate whatever we have to say once he has finished the book himself. Um but yeah, thank you both for being here. Uh, Kyle, it is wonderful to have you here finally. I've been looking forward to you joining us in the GGGKR. I'm so glad you're better, too.
>> Yeah, thank you for having me and I was I was really bummed I couldn't make sailing Sarantium, but um I I went back and listened and saw Allan arguing about all the history stuff and everything and and we have actually a um a virtual restraining order. I don't know. It's like really on the down low, so we can't appear on videos together. Um so that's why he's not here. [laughter] >> It's it's destiny or fate or something.
I've never seen them in the same place at the same time.
>> Ah, I don't know what that >> you're on to something. [laughter] >> And Evan, my friend, it is so good to see you. Uh, I look forward to this as much as I look forward to reading the books, which I love. So, uh, this is this is such a great journey and I'm excited to hear what you guys have to say about Lord of Emperors. We're going to start non-spoiler for a while and we will warn you when we get to the spoilers. So, uh, Kyle, why don't you start us off? Tell us your non-spoiler thoughts on Lord of Emperors, and you can go into the Sarantine Mosaic as a whole if you wish as well.
>> Sure. Sure. So, um, Lord of Emperors is my favorite guy book. Um, I've read most of them now. I haven't read uh the last two of Fionar, Yeel, and All the Seas of the World. So, I've read most of his books.
>> Um, Lord of Emperors was my favorite upon finishing. It stayed my favorite the whole time. Um, never wavered. And then when you were doing this, I uh you know, I threatened to toilet paper your house if you didn't let me onto this one. And you were like, "Okay, okay, please don't." Um, and so I did a reread and I So the thing is is that Lord of Emperors got better for me in hindsight as I like every time I thought about it, I was like, "Oh, I like that book more."
And so there's always a hesitation going into a reread because it's not like I knew I wouldn't love it, but I'm like, "Would it not meet those like expectations?" And it's only been three years since I've read it. And Sailing to Serant was pretty much like a pretty similar experience. Like I really liked it. like it's a really good book. Um I I tend to think with Sailing Serantium it's more of a complete story than people give it credit for, but it is obviously still like a half of a of a story, but like I feel like there's a the journey in of itself kind of comes to a um fruition for a lot of the characters. Um, and they like do a lot of changes during that. And then some of like the narrative like Zoticus and stuff like that kind of. So I think it's a little bit more of like its own book than people tend to kind of say it is, but it just really suffers a little from like you just start getting invested and they get to the city and then you got to wait for the next book. Um, but going into Lord of Emperors, I was a little nervous like 30% of the way in because I was really liking it. Everything was great, but I didn't feel that like this is one of my favorite books of all time energy. And I was like, "Oh no, are we losing the plot?" And then we got to the chariot race. And ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm proud to tell you this book is absolutely incredible. I love it so much. Like so chapters 10 and 11 of this book um like next to each other.
And we'll obviously go into them in spoilers. It took me so long. Like I was staying up in bed reading like I have a baby laying next to me and I I'm trying to read on my Kindle and I just keep rereading passages of chapters 10 and 11 because they're just so good. But it took me like an hour to read chapter 11 cuz I just kept going back and then I would just like stare off into space, think about other things in the book and I was like this book is so good. And then like yeah, the whole second half of this book just >> just moves me. I just I'm just so touched by a lot of it. Um I find there's a lot to say about art and the human condition and um where we place power and what we find meaningful and the idea of legacy. Um I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, it was Alexander Hamilton who said um what is a legacy but planting seeds in a garden you'll never see. I do believe that was Alexander Hamilton. Don't fact check me.
And um yeah, so in the last three years, I've had a little bit of life changes that I think brought a little bit more perspective to this. Um one, I am now a dad. So I related to Crispen a little bit differently. Like I was just able to place myself in like, oh, how how horrible it would be to lose your kid to the plague. Like obviously I knew before, but like it it hits a little different when you actually are a dad.
Mhm.
>> Um, and I also, um, at Dragon or at World Con last year, I went into like the art exhibit, and I've never been like a big fan of art. Like I don't like dislike art, but I've never been like moved by like aesthetic art. And I was there with, you know, my friends and everything. And I just was like, "Wow, this art is incredible." Like there was so much good art there. Like I just realized I had never like looked at good art. And that like really opened me up to how like like I remember looking at a like a Children of Time painting.
Actually, hold on. I know this is not super relevant, but it's relevant to what I'm saying. I saw this painting there, >> uh, which is the Children of Time, like special edition painting. It's kind of hard to see on here, but it was like a $25,000 painting by Donado. I don't know how to say his name. I'm so sorry.
>> Uh, and it just like moved me like I was just like staring at and that's why I got that so I could remember that.
>> And so rereading the Santine Mosaic hit me different in terms of everything talking about art because I really feel like now I I get that a little bit more.
Um, and then the third thing is I started working uh I do like suicide helpline now and so I I talked to a lot of people who are like really at the um their lowest point in life.
>> Wow.
>> Um and so I related more not related more but understood more of some of the things going on with Crisen. Not that I didn't understand before but just like the depth of how he felt dulled by the loss of his family. And you know, he's this artist like art is how he he's moved and all of all of these things and then he's obviously so depressed and still in his grief and then as he goes through this journey that changes and how that changes kind of echoes to some degree how I I've talked to some of the callers and stuff about how they've like gotten through things and all that. And so like I just felt like that brought a new perspective to Crisen's emotional journey that I felt was really moving.
So that was really longwinded, but I wasn't here for the last discussion. Oh yeah. And um all to say is that yeah, I still this is still my favorite Doug Gabri book. I love it. Um, if I have a criticism of it, it's what Evans was last time. Uh, which is just that like every every lady's like Crispen. But, you know, [laughter] that's small that's that's small potatoes to me, but I do like I do notice it. I'm just like, "Oh, man. Come on." But yeah, so Besmer >> makes you almost want to be a mosaicist, right? [laughter] I do actually um I had a discussion one time with uh a friend Sarah Reeds and Jake Bishop about this series and we were talking about how some people say that about Crispen and Sarah said this line that was just kind of an off-handed thing but it I thought about it while I was reading this one. She's like, "Has anybody just considered that Crispen is really bangable?"
And uh while reading this, it was actually that kept coming, [laughter] >> it actually kept coming back to me because I was like, I actually think like Guy Gabriel K has a whole thing where he um his protagonists, everybody, there's just always people are enamored with his protagonist. But I do think in Sarantine Mosaic it is a little bit more I do feel like he Chrisen is specifically meant to be attractive versus just like the main character which is funny because I I mean I still think it's like it doesn't change my criticism but it is funny that like he just walks into a room and all the girls are like >> Yeah.
>> And I'm like okay I think he's specifically supposed to be like an attractive man. So that's funny.
>> Yeah. Or it's more like they show up in his room. [laughter] >> Yeah. Exactly.
>> All right. Cool. Uh that was wonderful.
Thank you very much Kyle. Uh Evan, your non-spoiler thoughts on >> Yeah, that that was absolutely wonderful. Uh Kyle, all that and I particularly relate to the being a father and it a new father and that changing so I mean it's amazing how much >> art that changes um for you in in in a way that deepens so much.
>> So I loved what you said there. Um, it must be because Philillip is a doctor or maybe because he's got a soothing personality, which we can all agree on, that I have repeatedly enlisted him as uh my therapist after I've been critical of one of [laughter] K's books. I always feel bad and the good, you know, Dr. Chase reassures me, says, "No, no, it's it's good to be honest." And then I, you know, I pay him 80 bucks. Philip is really really patient, understanding, wise, considerate, uh, loves everything except Dandelion Dynasty and Kimly U. He just like he just hates him. Just won't read.
>> I treasure I treasure when Philip dislikes something. I I treasure it and I can't wait for him to rather die than read five pages of The Veil Throne with me. Like he's just out. So, but anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just had to get that one dig in about Dandelion Dynasty. Go on, Evan.
>> Um, I love that Dandelion Dynasty review from Philip. It's I treasure that.
>> Sorry. Um, yeah, >> I don't like to criticize and mostly because as I've mentioned many times before, I have a I have low confidence in my own opinion and it's it's more likely that I'm missing something than the book is or that I'm mistaking a matter of taste for a flaw in the writing. Uh, so after not loving Sailing to Serantium and feeling bad about it, I I read Lord of Emperors with extra attention and I'm happy to say that I think it's a better book, a great book even. Um, many of the techniques that Philip and Allan and I flagged uh in our first chat as odd or seemingly out of left field reveal their purpose in Lord of Emperors and are deployed, I think, with greater precision. Um, in fact, I think this is the book where Kay's rhetorical strategies are best calibrated to his subject. The form of the novel itself reinforces its themes.
It's something that that Kay's been striving for since Fionavar. We've seen it. And if sometimes we've located a gap between his enormous ambitions and his execution in this book, I think he grasps what he's reaching for.
>> Wow.
>> Um, Lord of Emperors is very different uh from Sailing to Serantium. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that this book has a lot of viewpoint characters.
Um, 29 by my count. Um, it almost goes without saying that this book is a mosaic and when you stand back and look at it, what you see is a detailed picture of Byzantine or Sarantine life in late antiquity. Um, and it draws from all levels of the social hierarchy. Now, have I grown to love Crispen?
Not exactly. but no longer dominating the narrative. I like where he fits in the balance of this larger cast. And I think I think that love is the wrong word. Anyway, um this book is simply not as interested as so many fantasy novels in forging deep emotional bonds with the characters for the reader. It's it's certainly possible to do that and and I'm sure many readers have, but it's not the end- all beall here. And Kay does a number of things intentionally that complicate those identifications, even hinder them at times. One reviewer um described the book in a complimentary way as as hierratic. um which I take to mean that the characters have at times an iconic quality and events are at times imbued with the kind of ceremonial symbolism which encourages the reader to take one foot out of the story and contemplate rather than uh identify. So if you're a reader who likes to stay with the immediate and the personal, you might find that an obstacle to your enjoyment here. But to me, these risks, and they are risks, um are the most thrilling parts of Lord of Emperors. Um it's not without flaws. Um and there are times when Kay leans away from my personal taste, which we can get into later. It's not my favorite book of his, but I think it's possible to make the argument that it's his best. Um so far, >> very easy to make that.
>> Wow. Wow. High praise. Uh, and I find it so serendipitous that we're having this discussion shortly after Evan, you released your latest video on your channel, The Nerd Writer, which is a video about William Blake. And in particular, what you're talking about is his vision being one where it's a combination of poetry and art. And that there is, you know, if you separate those things, you lose something, right?
there. The the totality of the vision depends upon these things being on the page together. Um, and I feel like that's an appropriate uh observation in a sense uh for what guy Gabriel Kay is doing as well in this story because he is there he's I love one of the things I love about his book so far is that he's so brilliant at incorporating other forms of art besides writing and into his just appreciation of beauty and life and and the the human experience. Uh and in here it's it's mosaic. Um but it doesn't matter you know it could be music like in a song for arbone you know it could be uh any number of different ways in which we express ourselves. Um but here it's mosaics and uh it's just so beautifully done. Uh the thing that I always think of and I've said this before I think but the word I the first word I think of when I think of his books is beauty. Um, and I really feel that he um has a way of helping me to appreciate so many other things, not just art, but also history and other things. I mean, he's a writer who gets us to go look up, okay, um, who exactly was this historical figure? You know, you you always feel like you have to bone up on your history when you're reading a guy Gabriel K book. And I appreciate that as well. So, there's just this totality to his vision uh, and what he does for me as a reader that I deeply appreciate. And that was certainly very true of the Sarantine mosaic. Um it's just uh beautifully done as always. Uh I that all that said, I I mean I don't I don't like ranking things and all of that as you may have may have heard before. I don't [laughter] ranking things. Um I I I think at this point, this one has to sit with me for a while.
I love the way you put it, Evan. Um it may not be my favorite. Um, but maybe he what he achieved, you know, in terms of his vision here, you could you could rank it uh among the the the eight books we've read so far as as as the best. But for me, I think it's still going to be either a song for Arbon or um perhaps the Lions of Alasan. If I have to pick a favorite, you know, it's probably going to be one of those two.
>> I can't believe we even got you to say that much about >> I know, right? Yeah. Those are far and away my three favorites of the ones you've read. So, in fact, those are three of my four favorite GK books. So, >> okay, >> you're in good company.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean, Tigana, Arban, and Alasan are kind of the leading the pack for me.
Um, and uh >> and uh I just I really love Tagana, and I can't really get it get it out of my head. I I I recognize like I was saying before that I think this is probably a more accomplished book, but just terms of how the book speaks with you. Yeah, for sure.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Go ahead, Kyle.
>> Sorry. I was just going to say one thing that I love about Gabro. Okay. And I didn't like necessarily think about this reread in that terms that it's just like a a through line of him is like I feel like he brings out what I the idealized version of humanity that like make like it always really inspires me and it's through art but it's also just through like um there's lots of like little things in especially Lord of Emperors where it's like all these great things are happening but that doesn't matter to the the shepherd whose sheep is stolen.
Like it's like we everybody's lives are equally important and like we he has all these like things that you could say and it could like you could write it a little differently and it could feel like it was in like a like a fortune cookie and you're just like you like roll your eyes at it but then like the way he writes it is just like a little bit more refined, a little bit more deep and introspective and then you're like yeah you know life is precious or like you know whatever like almost basic thing he says but he makes it not basic.
And I I was reading uh the last one that I read before Sar Sarantine Mosaic Reread was children of Earth and Sky. It was my first time reading it and I was just like so like at the end of that book just like I just felt like I was like oh man being a human is such a treasure like I like I just that's the he's the only author that makes me feel like like when he's talking about like art and humanity and like what's worthwhile and all this stuff and like what you stand for. I'm just like man like I could be a better person. Like I don't know. Like it's just it's just like so inspiring. of just like not even like I could be a better person, but like we could be better like as people and I just like I always find that and it's the way he writes like like you said like culture and art and um the human spirit and stuff I just think always like really speaks to me and and makes me want to um think about what it means to be a human on this earth and I think that's really special.
>> Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, I mean you get to the end of a guy Gabriel K book and for me anyway, I just feel this overwhelming sense of melancholy and transcendence and connection and just appreciation for life, you know. Uh, and that's something I really think he does maybe like no other author I know. And I I love getting to the end of one of his books uh because it just you can just feel that starting to well up in you as you're getting toward the end and you're you're seeing it coming and and he still manages to surprise me at the end of every book. He loves doing that. I think is is to give you a little bit of a surprise at the end and I always find I'm initially like wait no I don't like that and then I'm I'm like wait okay maybe he's got something going here. You know, he does that to me almost every book. Like he'll he'll give me a twist that I wasn't expecting. So now I'm expecting a twist. [laughter] But >> starts starts and finishes are incredible at starts and finishes.
>> Yep. Yep. Yep. He really is. Yeah.
Sorry, Kyle. Go ahead.
>> Oh, I just was making it like the next GGK book you read will have no twist.
You'll be expecting a twist and you'll just twist the whole time.
>> That's the twist.
>> There is no twist.
Gotcha. Um, so yeah. All right.
>> What's What's after Lord of Emperors? Is it Last Light of the Sun?
>> Yeah, it's the Anglican Norse inspired one.
>> You're gonna you're gonna love that one.
>> That's right.
>> Me, I would rather just watch The Last Kingdom, you know.
>> Yeah, [laughter] >> it's brilliant. All right. Well, I think uh any other non-spoiler thoughts before we jump into the spoiler part of our discussion?
>> Uh the chariot race in this book is transcendent. Oh, I actually I have a a little bit of a funny story. Uh so when I first read Lord of Emperors, I was going to meet Guy Gabriok in in uh the city like near me and so I had to drive two hours to get there and I wasn't quite done. So I I finished the book on audio and I was like you know in tears while driving and I was like oh my god.
>> So then I I I go there and you know uh guy okay very nice he's like if you have more than like just the newest book that's fine just go to the end and I'll sign them all. I had like six or seven books, whatever. I went to the end and so then he's signing stuff and so he's signing like for a little bit so I I have a little bit longer to talk with him and uh I was like, you know, I finished Sword of Empress today and like it might be my favorite of your books.
Um that chariot race was just like transcend I just I couldn't believe how much I love that chariot race. And then he looks at me and he goes he's like, "That's really good to hear because I thought the the chariot race and sailing to Sarantium was pretty damn good and I knew I had to top it for Lord of Emperors." So I put a lot of effort into the chariot race and so it's really nice to hear that that really resonated with you and I thought it was funny that he was like already too. He's like he's like I did pretty good in Sailing Serangium. So um yeah, the chariot race is like one of my favorite chapters.
>> It's worth the price of admission for sure.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh yeah. Great stuff. Too bad Allan is missing this discussion. Uh, >> too bad, Alan. So sad. [laughter] If >> only he had someone else to blame.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. Well, we're going to jump into spoilers. That's This is your warning. So, if you have not yet read Lord of Emperors, we are We have to do the Kyle, you got to do the >> spoiler robot.
>> The spoiler bot dance. So, [laughter] and now we are doing spoilers. We're gonna start actually with a slide. You got it. Uh, a slide. This is what they come for. This is what they come for.
>> This is what brings >> Thank um thank you for um mentioning the the Blake video because and thank you for watching it uh because I'm very proud of that one first of all and um >> brilliant. Yeah.
>> Also, it just I was so deep in the research for that for that project while I was reading Lord of Emperors and so it it's not it's impossible for it not to have some kind of influence on me. And I found that, you know, I love when unexpected things um uh spark and have an interaction that you don't expect. So I always try to read very random things next to each other because you never you never know. Oh, sorry.
Sorry. Okay. So let's um let's I I feel the spirit of of of AP Canavan. So let's talk some narrative perspective. Um, [laughter] um, let me just share my poltergeist.
>> Um, it could be.
>> Uh, okay. Do we do we see that?
>> We do.
>> So, I want to talk about do a little bit of a close reading of just a couple paragraphs here because I think and and Kyle mentioned chapter 10, chapter 11 are just outstanding. This is from chapter 10. It is, I think, maybe the most important uh part of the book in terms of explaining what what uh what K is doing here.
>> I have this highlighted to talk about.
So, I'm glad that you can you can take over. You've thought about it, Martha.
But I think it's funny that we both highlighted it. Yeah, >> it's impossible not to highlight. I think it's so it's such a great part.
So, let's just take it little by little here. Um the race that followed was remembered for a very long time, right?
So the first uh the first sentence, we have an omnisient narrator in the building. I mean that that that is something we need to we need to notice right away there. This is what a third person omnisient narrator, this god-like figure that stands outside the story and has unrestricted access to time and space and character might tell us something like this. What's also really important to note is that is the temporal cross pressure. Here we have the race that followed pointing to the future um what and was remembered pointing to the past um with the word time here as as a nice button on the sentence um for emphasis.
>> I do love how he does as a nar have a narrator who takes you out of the immediate story quite quite frequently.
That's a technique that he >> and that's and that that is ex that is exactly what I I want to highlight here.
Um, even with the events that ensued that day and immediately after it, the first afternoon race of the second Hippodrome session that year was to become legendary. In both sentences, this and the first one, the narrator's freedom to move in time, his omnimporality is used to create tension.
We want to see this this legendary race that we're hearing about. and also the events that ensued that day and immediately after, which the narrator suggests is a big deal, too. An emissary from Moscow, who had accompanied the Grand Prince's entourage and remained behind through the winter in slow negotiations over tariffs, was in attendance and would and would chronicle the race in his diary, a record that would be preserved miraculously through three fires in three cities 150 years apart. Now, this narrator is starting to feel less like a god and more like a historian.
>> He's backing up his claim that the race was legendary by providing a source, the emissary's diary. That's something that that historians do. Omnicient narrators don't need sources. But as we know from for example Tolken's prologue in the Lord of the Rings, this kind of pseudo historioggraphy like the the trivial detail about tariff negotiations that's never mentioned again can create a sense of authenticity that facilitates immersion. But I think Kay's intention is deeper than this. He is purposely comparing and in some ways likening the role of the historian to the role of the fictional narrator. His great subject in this book is history itself. How it's constructed, how it feels to the people who are living through it, how we shape it and it shapes us. And Kay is careful to show us just how contingent our understanding of history is. Um this diary that he's talking about, it almost burned up three times. What about all the sources that did burn up, the ones that didn't make it? What about the writings of the people who were not so close to power like this emissary? What about the people who couldn't read or write at all? With all that's necessarily, you know, left out, how accurate can our idea of the past be?
>> There were those in Hibidrome that day for whom the racing held more importance than mighty events of war and succession and holy faith. It is always so. Okay, so now we're dispensing the sources again. The omnisient narrator is back or else the historian is taking liberties.
Something that Kay wants us to think about, a possibility he wants us to think about. But it's this last short sentence, it is always so >> uh that is a momentous shift. The narrator isn't just telling a story here. He's commenting on the story. And let's see what he has to say about that.
The apprentice decades after might recall an announcement of war as having taken place the day the chambermaid finally went up to the loft with him.
The long-awaited birth of a healthy child will resonate more for parents than the report of an invading army on the border or the consecrate uh consecrating of a sanctuary. The need to finish the harvest before frost overwhelms any response to the death of kings. A flux in the bowels obliterates the weightiest pronouncements of holy patriarchs. The great events of an age to those living through them appear as backdrops only to the vastly more compelling dramas of their own lives. And how could it be otherwise?
>> Now in content here, this is the statement of a major theme of the Sarantine Mosaic.
>> Yeah.
>> But what's even more important here is the form. Um, and we're let's go a little bit into the weeds here. Third person perspective is it can be a maddeningly tricky subject. We think of it as as divided into two neat boxes.
Third person omnisient and third person limited, but it's really more like a musical mixing board with a number of different sliders. And a writer can tweak the variables to achieve different effects. Um, that said, I think it's safe to say that the godlike omnisient narrator has been declining in popularity for a long time. Third person limited is much more common and that's definitely so in modern fantasy especially close third person limited in which the consciousness of several focalized characters drive the story and the narrator is almost invisible. If you look down a list of the most prominent fantasy novels today you'll find that mode dominating. You know, I I have Martin here, George R. Martin. I have Brandon Sanderson. Uh uh Robin Hob and the Live Ship Traders.
>> Joe Abberrombie is a great example.
>> Joe Abocrombi. And here's one that might be even better than them all. Can you see it?
>> Uh it's the wavy Dan. It's the Wavy Dan by Philip Chase. This book is told in close third person limited. Um all >> we have the author here >> with Yes. with maybe one section from the POV of a seagull, but besides that, it's all people. Um, >> uh, the next most common choice of course is first person, but this close third choice, it makes sense because close third approaches the intimacy of first person without the restriction of being confined to one consciousness. And the intimacy is useful because empathetic connection with a character can facilitate immersion in the strange uh magical worlds of fantasy. And it's also something readers crave to inhabit the consciousness of a character and feel the story from the inside. That level of intimacy is reduced when the story is told by an omnisient narrator.
By their very nature, omnisient narrators tend to remind us that we are being told a story. That is especially true when the narrator starts commenting on the story. Here is the famous last line from George Elliot's Middle March, which you might know. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive. For the growing good of the world is partly depended on unhistoric acts and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life and rest in unvisited tombs.
>> This kind of comment >> this kind of comment is almost almost essistic in nature. The kind we see in the L in Lord of in the Lord of Emperor's passage is extremely rare in today's fiction. It was much more popular in the 19th century among writers like Elliot Toltoy and others.
But that kind of authority is something modern readers are generally skeptical of and and resistant to these comments.
They they temporarily halt the momentum of the story for a moment of contemplation and in the process they create distance between the reader and the character. Only a very deaf writer can zoom out to this bird's eyee view and then zoom back in again without losing the reader. Kade does that more than once in the serentine mosaic shifting from close third to this authoral amnition and back and each time is a risk. The question is what does he stand to gain? And there's another quote about George Elliot that I think is totally relevant to to this the story.
There is an inherent there is inherent in the contemplative attitude a certain detachment. But this detachment is of that ironic and yet sympathetic observer who is seeking to understand what he observes by placing it in a larger context. Elliot challenges the reader to bring this fictional microcosm into the widest possible context he can offer his own deepest sense of the macrocosmic world. Now let's go back to the final part of this passage.
In this same way, many of the men and women there in the Hippodromeome, and some who were not, but later claimed to have been, would cling to one private image or another of what transpired.
They might be entirely different things, varying moments, for each of us has strings within the soul and we are played upon in different ways like instruments and how could it be otherwise. So we have each of us >> we are played. The narrator is addressing the reader directly like Elliot's narrator does as an equal prompting an identification with the narrator and inviting us to see the story from the wider perspective of a fictional narrator or a historian to see how the larger forces shape these characters' lives and choices. And ultimately going back to that quote to bring this fictional microcosm into the widest possible context he can offer the reader sense of of how these dynamics operate in the real world. At the same time this sentence reminds us to see things from an individual's perspective.
It reminds us that we all respond in unique ways like instruments being played to events that may or may not later be thought of as historically significant. It's those unique responses and the choices that follow that ultimately drive the history that shapes the individuals who make future choices and on and on and on. It's a feedback loop or as Yates visualized it as a gy and we know that uh the epigraph of this book is turning and turning in a widening gy from Yates's poem uh the second coming. Um, in its telling, history can't possibly include all the variety, all the music of the human experience. But maybe fiction can supplement what's lost. Or maybe history and fiction are compliments that need each other to tell the whole human story. Maybe we need some combination of the omnisient and close third person perspectives, which of course is what we get in this book.
>> Brilliant.
Yeah.
>> Um, so yeah, there's a lot going on here.
>> You know, you have a lot of like uh like nerdy like nerdy thoughts about writing.
Like I wonder I wonder if you could do something with that. Like if you had like nerdy [laughter] thoughts about writing.
>> So that was wonderful.
>> Thank you.
>> It really was. Philip mentioned in the weeks that were that he sort of um suspected that my basic most basic interest is in how storytelling functions and >> come on I was laughing when you said that [laughter] >> it's funny um so like I also not to that depth because you're better at this but I also think about like storytelling is done and stuff and um I back in my youth wanted to be an actor um and so like I you know I see a lot of things through like the the the idea of like seeing a scene in a movie or or a TV show or whatever And so one like random thing I was doing while reading this was trying to visualize how you would adapt this into a TV show which I didn't do the first time because the first time I was like in the story. I'm not really doing that. But then this time I was really like I was like okay like what what is the intention of the overall goal? And it really like helps um even just thinking about that as a process of what the goal of the story is because for instance I'm not going to get too far into my like adapting it into television thoughts but when you're trying to do something like that you have to think what is a story trying to get across and I think an adaptation of Sarantine Mosaic would be very very difficult to achieve what Kay is trying to do because it is trying to do a lot of what Evan just said. of like how history and people are like moved individually and all all this stuff and you know with um the idea that the big events happen but then there's all the little people around dealing with their own lives and their dramas are just compelling. Um and I think the thing you'd have to do is like have some sort of narration like you'd have like you'd have to use it sparingly but there would have to be something to like set the legendary mythic tone of like what's going on. Um, and I actually thought of that exact scene a little a little bit tiny later because I was thinking the narrator if I was to do this would be Cleander because Cleander later they were like, "Oh, he got older. When he became a man, he he did the records and that's when he became a man." So I was like, "Oh, you'd have like an old man Cleander being like when I was a kid, you know, Sarantium was crazy, you know, like obviously, but like poetic and then it would kind of go back." And I was like thinking about how that moment in the Hippodrome, all of the people there, they're going to define a portion of their lives that way. And like it's like it's going to go off in different directions for everybody. Um, obviously with everything happening with the emperor, like it's such a momentous day in the history of that city. Every single person there is affected. They're all going to remember that.
a flashb memory for all of them and it's going to redefine their lives in one way or another. Um and so it is this this idea that these big events happen like sure like you know um Valarius loses his life uh Leantes becomes emperor all these big things happen but also you know um Cleander is a quote unquote nobody. I know he's the son of a senator but in terms of the story he's a nobody and that like is a life-changing event for him. like that sets him on a path to be an entirely different type of person.
And through Cleander, we can see that the other thousands of people in there or the other thousands of people in the city that um aren't in the hippodromeome but are affected by these. And then the people in the other cities that are now going to be at war or aren't going to be at war, they're all affected by these events and how it ripples out and it creates um this whole tapestry or mosaic if you will of humanity and how these little changes, all these little ripples effects. Um you know, you think about like um Valyrias came clo so close to turning those guards. Yeah.
>> Um, well, I mean, he did turn them, but like first of all, well, reading that scene, it's so excellent because like first of all, if you know history, you're playing against the idea that this doesn't happen, >> right?
>> So, you're already you're already working on that. Um, but even just with like just within the book, you're like, "This is the emperor. Like, he's not going to die here." And like Guy Gabriel K does such a great job at um making the tension so high because you get the chapter beforehand with the crazy brother just being like [laughter] and then Alexiana just like basically just like hight tail running out of there and then you know everything with the race being like all the events that happened after. So now as he's having this conversation you are so tense but you're like well first of all if you know history he doesn't die here and second of all um he's the emperor. This is clearly not going to happen. And we're halfway through the book. This is not the climax of the book. So, he does all these things to make you think he's going to live. So, like the idea of him turning the guards, the nameless guards is so important to me for the scene because like first of all, it gives him an out. You're like, "Okay, this is how he's going to get out of this. He's going to turn these guards and then he's going to get the upper hand." Second of all, I do love how Guy Gabri never forgets the nameless people. Those guards are characters. They might not have names. We don't know anything about them, but they are characters in that scene. They are not setting. He never for a second forgets. Every character in a scene is a character.
They have their own thoughts, motivations. We not might not be spending a lot of time on them. We don't know what turned those two guards. We don't know what exactly it was that Valarius said to turn them back is probably that they were going to burn to death. But we don't know what's going on in their head. We just know how it's impactful for the scene. But he gives you just the tiniest bit of enough to understand that these are human beings that are living their whole lives. And same with like um when um Alexiana was leaving uh and there's the head of the guards >> and we've never seen this character. We don't know his name. And then he kills the other guard and he's like, I couldn't be sure of him, but I can be sure of him.
>> Uh and then now now you just see how like this guy's a dude. He's like lived a lot. He knows all of his his comrades.
He he trusts the one guy that's left super well. he was a little like it tells you so much and so little and you never have to think about that character again but it just makes you feel like everybody's real and so in that moment to bring it back to uh in the hippodrome if he had turned those guards 30 seconds earlier and or the the guards instead of being hesitant were firmly on his side and they had stopped uh Laspidius or what the the freaky pyromaniac guy um if they had stopped him from getting a hold of that thing the entire history of the continent would be different >> because Valyius wouldn't have died. He would have went to a whole different like it would have changed everything and that's such a small thing but that's how the ripple effects of humanity works is you never know that tiny little moment that shifts your life that shifts the people's lives around you that shifts the life or the the world history and obviously those two guards know that >> who's the one who's the one who actually kills uh the emperor the historian.
Yeah, the historian, which is [laughter] crazy. And he's like, he's like, I shouldn't have gotten involved in that.
>> In case you in case, you didn't, you know, you needed a fine point on the on that.
>> Yeah. I love how this, you guys have said it really beautifully, and I I love how the ripples from all these events just keep playing out. uh even relatively minor characters like Thaeus uh Clander's stepmother uh how her story plays out from these events and and how she unfortunately uh takes her own life and how that changes as you said earlier Cleander as as a person. Uh that that's a part of that as well. There just so many ripples from this and it's so brilliant how we go from the scene in the tunnel to the chariot race back and forth with all the that every time we switch the tension just goes up each time. And I did feel though that when Scordius seemed like he was going to make it, I thought to myself, wait, no, he can't do that. He's gonna kill He's gonna kill the emperor. He can't because one of them I felt like one of them has to go in in this situation. You can't both can't have a miraculous, you know, last minute save.
Uh and I thought to myself when Scoria seemed like he was going to make it, I thought, "Oh no."
>> Uh [laughter] you know um and uh and that didn't make it less compelling.
That didn't make it less compelling. I was still upset like and like you said, Kyle, I was like, "Wait, you can't do that. That's not how it went in history, but that's the point here too, isn't it?
So, >> totally. And that moment and that Cleander moment that you mentioned is another one another example of of the of the narrator coming out into the four to >> to be more authoral and it's it it it it's happening all throughout the book.
And the thing that we talked about last time, the thing that that bothered me and Allan to a little to extent was this this this construction he always uses of afterwards he would think or later when thinking about that and now as I'm reading this one, you know, it's not that it's it's that I think it's that I don't think there aren't still problems with using it so many times, but it is a it is a moment for within the close third uh uh sections of this book, we get that moment of a narrator saying, "Actually, no. I I I'm I'm here too. Don't forget me because I can see the future and the past and and I have this omnimporality." So, obviously, if you're if you're only doing a close third perspective from what the person can see, what they can, you know, what they can think about, they don't know what's in their future.
I mean, that's not typically in a close third perspective. And so we have these inflections of a narrator coming in and I found I found that very interesting reading this book after >> tonally though there's a slight difference I think between the two books where where he uses that technique in the first book it's often played as a comic uh it has a comic effect whereas in this book like with the passage you read Kyle and I both got chills when you were reading that. I mean there he's going for something a little more >> well that that one is way more elevated but that's like that's like the that's like the showstoppping moment >> that's the showstopping moment of the third of the um of the authoral narrator but he's he but he still has to I I think because it is such a big shift from that to close third person that he had he had to find ways to kind of uh uh sprinkle it throughout and that's one of the ways he does it And there are other ways he does it too, like he has um he has the cleander moment which is a little more pronounced and he and and he'll have um you know sections where where this is one section where he's talking about the um you know the uh what happens in the in the winter months when the when the chariot raisin's not going on. They do these they do shows instead. and he goes like through four or five paragraphs of of something that is clearly not focalized but and and it's just details about the world that you would never that you don't necessarily need for the story except for it adds depth and it reminds you that there is a narratorial voice here that is in control of everything. And there are lots of other moments too. There's the moment where at the end of the chapter it's uh like you said uh after he does this little big showstopping moment at the end of this chapter or the next one there's just a little moment of and the farmer's cattle died or something and it was a devastating calamity and and and you're like oh okay now I see >> it was a worker died a worker died on the farm a laborer >> and I I that's such a I I I just imagine an editor an editor that's not editing guy, okay? But like a newer author and you and you put that down and they're like, "You have to cut this line." Like you can't you can't end that chapter.
Like it's such a bold thing to do to just be like, "Oh yeah, and these other guys over here, these uh don't worry about them, but they're having some stuff." Like it just shows what his intentions are so well. And that's what I mean when I say that like he he writes such simple things, but in a way that is so poant and thoughtful because really that line is nothing. It's just like, oh yeah, >> a worker died and then it was a big deal. Like that's really if you're summing it up, but it's like the way where it is, why it's there, how it's written >> elevates the entire story. And like you have all these little moments and it builds this whole idea of like we're all in this um giant mosaic or tapestry or whatever you want to say of humanity and it's all important to us. Um, and in regards to like the the I didn't get to finish the sailing video. I had like 20 minutes left, so I didn't hear that specific part you guys were talking about with the like >> that's the part where we were talking about you, Kyle, so that's okay.
>> Oh, okay. I'm going to go back and yell it out. Um, but what I would say to that is it really depends on the moments because sometimes I agree. And out of curiosity, Evan, do you read Stephen King at all?
>> I've read uh I've read two.
>> Okay.
>> So, I I want to read more. So, I've read every Stephen King book and his like second favorite thing on earth besides like blue corduroy jeans is um he'll just be like, "So, Bob was going to the store. It was his last day on Earth."
Like, he does that stuff all the time.
And I'm like, and I'm like, "I don't need to know that it was Bob's last day on Earth." And a lot of times he does it effectively. Like, sometimes I'm like, "Okay, like that kind of ruined the scene for me." But a lot of times it builds tension. Um, >> but does he do it but does he but but in those situations does do we is do we see the end of Bob's life?
And yeah, in that you will. So that's because because what we mentioned in the last video was that >> and it's all throughout this that we've almost every time he uses that that construction, we never it's not for foreshadowing. It's something that is going to happen past the >> story time of the of the main narrative.
>> Yeah. So I think it really would depend on like each line. Like the one that I en visualize you guys talking about more and maybe it wasn't is when the the like um oh my god I'm blanking on the the messenger guy like leaves the guy who caused all the the assassins and then he's like he went into the desert >> and became a prophet >> and stuff. Um to me that I think was first of all kind of tying a little bit into lions of I think that was just a nod to that but then also I think it was his name.
>> Yeah or something. I think it ti it it's supposed to be a signal to the reader like you said first of all that there's an omnisient narrator and also that this character's leaving the story and you can forget about them. Like to me it's like saying um this character's exiting the stage and here's what they did. And I do think like in that specific scene it's also doing this whole thing of like his life still had meaning and like >> it's he still affected things and made you like consider that. But um sometimes I like that and sometimes I don't. do think in Lord of Emperors I like pretty much all of the lions like that because I just think this book is incredible.
But this is not the last time the guy employs that kind of stuff. And there are times in like other books where I'm like, "Okay, this is a little too precious." So like I I understand where you're coming from with being taken out.
>> I I I I had problems with it a little bit, but but I it was recontextualized reading this book and I think that's that's that's kind of part of it. Um there's a uh here's a one really short one from a partardos section which is really interesting where partardos sat he was he was it's on his way to serant and partardos was sitting huddled in his cloak uh uh leaning his pack against the rough shelter of the wall and looking up at the far stars and the one white moon and thought about where he was in Jad's creation which is another whole thing K is K's characters are always thinking about where they are physically but also where they are in the hierarchy of things uh where the small breathing unimportant thing that partardos of the anti was uh was passing this cold night in the world. The stars were hard and bright as diamonds in the dark. Later he was to decide that the long night had given him a new appreciation of the god if that wasn't a thought too laden with presumption. For how dare a man such as he speak of appreciating a god. And this sentence is so incredible because we have the the later construction which is the the inflection or the imposition of the um of the omnisient narrator in a in a close third section of the book. But then in the same sentence it starts with later he was to decide and then when we get here for how dare a man such as he this construction how dare a man such as he that's free and direct style that is free indirect discourse where the narrator literally takes on the like the person who's saying how dare a man is partardardos you know it the the the narration is is literally taking on his language so within one sentence we have a fully bird's eye view and then a full dive into the the the the nar the narration actually taking on Parardos's own language and that that to me is is is just brilliant.
>> Well, another thing that GGK is not afraid to do is introduce a major brand new character in the second book of a duogy and that is of course Rustm. Uh and >> what a great character.
>> What a character. And of course, I think he takes a lot of the the time away from, let's say, Crispen. Chrisen was the major POV in the first book, and now it's more divided between the two of them, plus the 20some other characters that Evan counted who have POV moments.
Um, >> that's another thing that I think makes it harder um like for the traditional modern fantasy fan is that like they get attached to Crisen and then the second book, Krisen's still a major character, but I I would not call Chrisen the main character of the second book. I I I would say it's >> like kind of split between a couple people like pretty evenly whereas like he's unequivocally the main character of the first one.
>> Agreed. Agreed. Uh but I loved the introduction of Rustm by the who was mentioned by Zodacus in the first book.
Uh yes. The Crispen, hey, you should meet this uh Rustm guy and here's his address, you know, at this house. Uh so >> can we agree that uh can we agree that the first chapter is just extraordinary?
>> I mean I love the first chapter. saving the king of kings and and the we we get a another religion in this this world this subcreated world of it's basically modeled after Zoroastrianism um so uh you know I I love that as well and and it's before the spread of um Asherite the Asherite religion but we get hints at the origins of the Asherite faith as well in the meantime >> um but the whole scene I mean Kay is so brilliant at putting a several characters in a room together and having just such tension in this in these moment these key moments that change lives. Um, and of course, yes, the the King of Kings, he he's been shot by an arrow and he thinks it's one son turns out to be the son who's in the room with him praying for him. Uh, just so much brilliance in this scene. And of course, we know that if Rustm doesn't succeed here, it's and we he's already got us attached to this guy. Uh he's a family man. He has a very special son who who said, "Hey, daddy, you're gonna need this." Right. That was such a brilliant.
>> Talk about talk about butterfly effects on the story.
>> Yeah, >> that's a huge moment.
>> Yep. Huge moment. So, yeah. Your thoughts on on the opening with with Rustom, guys. Go for it. Whatever you want to say about that. Uh go ahead, Evans.
>> I was just going to say that I I love the scene so much. It reminded me because I do think that for me in Sailing to Serantium, what Philip's talking about of these people in rooms being uh creating these moments of great tension, that was a little bit missing for me.
>> Um, in Sailing to Serantium, even though that does happen in the court of Sarantium, I thought that the dialogue was somewhat lackluster in points and didn't really grab me. Whereas in specific scenes in Tagana, like the scene in the lodge um and lots of scenes in um in Arban with the whole cast um uh were so, you know, were so tense and so uh uh so good. Um this first chapter had that quality to me.
>> Um and it was like its own little short story. And I and I was in on this world that I've I had never seen before within just a few pages. And I wanted to like I wanted more of that. I wanted to stay in with that. Um I I I was I was fine with us just getting Rustm, you know, um and a little more of of the rest of the family, but I was so invested and it was a great start to this book. And also I think um it it it highlights another theme that Kay is trying to to talk about in this book which is the the the interaction between the the center and the periphery or different centers and different um different parts of the world. You have the the the Bassinids on the east. You have the uh uh the old Romans, the Rodians, is it Rodian?
Batiara on the on the in the west and you have Bzantium in the center. And so now we have uh the movement in the first book was was was Crispen going from west to east. Now we have Rustm going from east to west all meeting up in this one area. And of course Rustm eventually goes >> further west um when he moves on to to Espirana. And I think there's a I think there's a suggestion I read that there was a suggestion that he is related to Rodrigo Belmont in uh in our son.
>> I mean I thought the same thought. Yeah.
That >> this actually didn't even occur to me but I I want to like did you see why people think that or is it just hope?
>> No, I just saw it and I was like I don't know. But um but I do like the idea of of of them going to of of him going to Espirana or this kind of Spain area which is going to become this like tolerant beautiful space uh for a brief period. Uh anyway, loved the first chapter. Absolutely loved it.
>> Gorgeous. Yeah. Kylin, do you have any thoughts on the introduction introduction?
>> I I mean I don't I don't feel like I have much to add. I remember the first time I read it um like just natural resistance to like no bring me back to the story that I wanted to be like I'm like no and so it took me a couple pages but like I was just blown away at how good it was and then the second time through like where I was just like excited to reexperience it as opposed to like kicking and screaming at first I just think the whole chapter like I agree it's like a great short story like if um if you were to just do like a short story collection of like samples of people's work or something like you could just like lift that chapter out for like guy okay and just be experience how good of a writer he is. Um I like Rustm way more than I like Crisen. Um although I do think I've grown to like Crisen more on my second read and it's not like I dislike him at any point, but um just Rustin is just like immediately likable. Um very principled and I think >> I think I like principled characters um especially in the face of something that could really backfire on them. Like they're doing the right thing regardless of the cost of what it might mean to them. And um just to you know put a pin in this when you guys read Children of Earth and Sky I want you to think back to this chapter when you get to it. Um I I I felt when I read that book especially because that's the last guy Got okay book I read I there's an echo of that chapter in that book like not not in like a direct like it's not like Rustin shows up or but just in terms of thematically that I really really liked.
>> Um and so yeah I really appreciated that. um his son is such a good character and like yeah, just those like little touches of the fantastical really elevate. He like knows when to put them in and when to just like let things be just kind of like straight historical fiction almost.
>> Um and yeah, the King of Kings like I I was actually really shocked the first time when it was the error. Like I didn't see that coming. I just thought that the king was going to die and then somehow they were going to I thought the scene was going to go that like they were going to exile Rustm to Serantium instead of killing him because he wasn't one of his court or something. So I like that he ended up doing that and stuff.
Um and also just as an aside it's a crazy practice to kill all your doctors if they can't >> Yeah. Nobody's going to be one of the doctor >> like absolutely insane. Like, you know, I live in Canada and there's a doctor crisis and I'm just like thinking I'm like, imagine if they just killed whenever like the the the premiere or something couldn't be saved. They're just like kill all these doctors. Like that's crazy.
>> And I don't want to make too much of it really, but this is the second time we've seen a really compelling doctor character.
>> Um, and I believe that guy Gabriel K's father was a doctor. Is that am I right in in that, Kyle? You >> I don't know.
>> I don't think I've heard him talk about his dad. Okay.
>> Doctors and artists and artists, his characters.
>> Yeah.
>> His uh so when I lived in the city that uh like in Winnipeg where guy grew up, um I lived like a couple blocks from McN Robinson uh which is where he always goes. And when I saw him there, he was like, "Oh yeah, my mom was the first customer here. Like we lived down the block and when they opened on on the day, she was like there like 5 minutes after it opened or something." So, as far as like the owner ever knew, Gabriel K's mom was like the first customer at this bookstore. And so, he always goes back there when he goes to Winnipeg, but I've never I don't know anything about his dad.
>> Okay, I'll have to look that up. But, and someone in the comments will probably correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's the case. uh and and these doctors like I won't say too much because it would be a spoiler but in in um lines of Al Rasan obviously the the a doctor plays an important role in that and there's a paternal doctor figure as well and and one of the things about Rustin to me is that this is a man who is trying because of his culture you know the certain notions about what it means to be a man uh he's trying to be out of touch with his emotions and he's not entirely successful at that uh which makes me kind of love him more in a way.
He tries to be, you know, very principled and and and very um you know, like, oh well, you know, my son, he's a little bit too affectionate, you know, um and and I I shouldn't, you know, Shaski is the name of the son, I think, right? That's his nickname. Um and you can tell that he's melting a little bit there when he's leaving his son as well, and he's trying to be very stoic about it and very proper and and all of that.
Um, so that's that's that's an aspect of his character that I appreciated as well is that he tries to be very professional and and um unattached. Um, and yet you can feel the emotions inside him as well. The way he responds to people like when >> he's the the the the one a really brilliant scene is when Stramosus the chef is begging him to help save >> um the the hisy.
Yeah.
>> Oh my goodness. Chyros. Yeah. That that was such a beautiful scene. Uh, I felt and you can see again Rustm the professional versus Rustm the the human the the the person with emotions um in and a bit of conflict there. We knew he was going to go back in and and and help save him. But uh yeah, >> same as Scorius too, like when he's like he's like I'm not like you you're done, Bucko. Like you're out of here. Like you did this to yourself. You did this to your own damn self.
>> After and after [laughter] he's like all right you did just do like some transcended old sports magic. like I guess >> he's he's a pushover. [laughter] >> Yeah.
>> But on on Rustin, I love seeing the culture of Serantium through the perspective of from an outsider like him. I mean, that was a highlight of this book. And I love him.
You know, the book is essentially it's organized around uh two sort of major events. There's like a mini one at the beginning which is the wedding of Kaja and and Carolus. We have a lot of buildup to that. Then that happens and then the second one of course is the is the hippodrome race and the assassination and all that stuff. That's all happening as one big event. And the book orbits around those two things where the whole end of the book is essentially just the kind of extended denim or the the the the effects of what happens there which I'm I'm totally fine with. Um, but the way the way the role Rustin plays in the wedding, it's great because first of all, he has this this clash with Cleander. Um, who's a great character, even if we, you know, get annoyed by him.
>> Um, and then that one of the the best moments in the book is when when Rustm stomps over to to Bosanos at the wedding. Is is it Bosnos? Bonosis.
Bonosis at the wedding.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. And and you're like, "Oh now things are going to pop off." Um and I love I love the tension there. Um, and uh, throughout the book, just getting the perspective of somebody who's not from this culture puts a nice uh, puts a nice gloss on uh, on what life is actually like in Serantium as opposed to, you know, somebody who's, you know, Chrisen is not from Serantium, but he's from a a related culture. Um, or a culture maybe that you could say came before the culture of Serantium, but they're related nonetheless. Whereas Russ's perspective is much different.
>> Also love interweb. Sorry, go ahead.
>> Oh, just I'll go quick and then you you take over. But I was just going to say I also love how he dyes his beard because everyone knows that some white in your beard makes you more distinguished, right? So [laughter] he even he even has a a fake like staff that he he walks around.
>> Are you doing that? Is that what you're doing?
>> Maybe >> Philip is actually like 26 years [laughter] old.
This is all for the clicks. He's not even a professor. He's just a guy reading One Piece putting on a tweet jacket.
>> That's it. You I'm found I've been found out.
>> That's all it takes. That's all it takes.
>> Yeah. Sorry, Kyle. You go ahead.
>> Um I totally forgot what I was going to say. It wasn't It was just a follow-up comment. It's okay. No.
>> All right. We'll we'll come back to it.
No doubt. But yes, that wedding scene was ab another great example of >> Yeah. a bunch of people in a room and the tension and and there's a lot of wisfulness to it as well because you know there were hints that Crispen and Caseia were going to be a thing you know in the first book.
>> Yeah.
>> And and this is another thing that guy Gabriel K does is like he keeps you guessing about okay you think it's going to be Jack and Jill but it ends up being Jack and and and Hilda or whatever you know. Kas Casia has still has feelings for >> very much and that scene at the end where she kisses him uh that was just >> beautiful >> and she's ambivalent for certainly ambivalent about marrying Carolus.
>> Um >> at the beginning I do think she's she's coming around by the end.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It definitely it definitely um I did remember what I was going to say which was that I think that it helps um the POV like to what Evan was saying about we have a complete outsider. It's a foreign culture. We have somebody who is seeing the culture through the eyes of the old culture that like this is he's almost like while Serrantium is the great city. Um there's a certain amount of like um just arrogance a little to how Crisen would view them because he thinks his like his culture should be the older culture but they're not. It's Sarantium and so he's like oh we're similar but we're a little strange like uh and how you guys do things. So he's still seeing it from an outsers's perspective but informed. And then you have all of the characters in Sarantium and how much they place on it like how Valarius and um like even like Carolas um just all these like other characters see the idea of Sarantium or like living in the city and stuff like that. And I think that that altogether kind of really helps paint the picture of Sarantium and I was actually thinking about that while reading because the city feels so more the alive feels so alive and bigger than life. Um, and that's like a a recurring thing throughout his books.
Um, there's no other books set in Serantium, but a lot of these books are interconnected. And so they talk about Sarantium. They It's a It's a giant city. And some of them take place after that city would no longer exist, and some of them don't, but no matter what, it's this giant important city in the culture around them. And so it gets brought up in small or important ways throughout like all of his books. Not all, but like a lot of them. And so you over time you just get this like vast appreciation for the city. And so rereading it I was like I I do think the perspectives taken the variety of different types of people that you see and how they experience the dayto-day of the city really makes it feel alive and and bigger than life. And so I I thought that was excellent as well. This this brings up a really important point I think when you're talking about uh Serantium as the city because one kind of uh uh one curious thing about K and and and we often talk about K's pros as being something um beautiful um but we should talk about what kind of pros he's actually writing and what kind of pros he doesn't write because reading this book and I like I said I I I try to read it with attention. It is remarkable how little visual noticing he does in his writing.
>> Um like and I I've been I was reading other books uh after this uh I I I read um one of I wanted to sort of get a sense of some how someone might uh uh deal with the same sort of material. So, I read Mary Renault's Fire from Heaven.
Um, and I know that Mary Renault is that Kay is a huge fan of Renault. And that's the the trilogy, the Alexander trilogy, the trilogy of Alexander the Great. and her her evocation of of Macedonia in that period is just so alive with little details, physical details, sight details, details of how things smell and everything feels very lived in and and you you get, you know, transported there. I I do feel like what Kyle's saying is you do get a sense that there's something bigger happening in Serantium, but it's not a visual sensation. There's one quote where uh where Jiselle is where she wakes up and she and there's a quote that says even though she had known Serantium could overall and had been preparing for it, Jazelle learned when the sun rose that morning behind the imperial city that sometimes there was no real way to prepare oneself. And that's it. We don't get anything about what overroought her. We don't get like a few paragraphs of this is the way the sun glinted off the domes. I'm reading Zola right now. I'm reading the um the masterpiece about the impression. I'm doing a project on the impressionists and I'm reading about it's it's about an artist who's who's walking through Paris and all we get is the way the artist sees Paris in these beautiful paragraphs of description. Kay just is not interested in that and that it's worth saying that his interests and what the characters think about and talk about it's not phenomen phenomenological.
He's interested in social structures.
>> The characters are always more preoccupied when they're thinking about institutions and social and political structures and the way people behave.
That's what they're thinking about. And it's so fascinating to me because um there are times when I wish I saw Serantium, this beautiful big city. I wish I saw it more than what he he gives me. And I and and I and and and and I I can't impose this style on him. He's clearly got different interests, but it's worth talking about because I think that's true in all his books to a certain extent. There's not a lot of physical texture, not a lot of visual noticing in his pros.
>> And yet, he does.
>> I have never realized that.
>> He does give you a feel for the place.
And and and you you mentioned Jazelle's impression. And then he also has these little flames or will the wisps or whatever going around in the city and there's this sense of magic about the place.
>> Uh so yeah, that's that's a a great observation.
>> Maybe this is why Sorry, go ahead. Just one quick thing and then you go maybe this is why I like them so much because uh I don't care about descriptions of cities because I don't [laughter] really picture them like I'll picture them how I want to anyway. Like I don't like you can sit there and tell me about a Dan and I'm like I'm not picturing any of that stuff. Um, yeah, but it does remind me, I had forgotten about this until you said it, that the first time I was reading Sailing to Serantium in my head, >> like because he doesn't include these details, I was picturing like Crisen and like uh Jazelle and all all of these people uh in like not Rome, but Rome um like living in like just like the forest like not like like just like not huts, but like just like very univil and like I didn't really consider what it was like clearly invoking until like I got further into the story. I'm like, "Oh, this is what like they live in a city."
Like, it's not they don't live in like tents and stuff, but like in my head because he doesn't describe anything and they're like the old civilization. I was just like kind of naturally imagining like barely civilization. And I'm like, "No, they clearly still like live in a city. It's just not as great as Serantium." And I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I guess it makes sense because he's not describing anything that you can just fill in those details however your brain felt." So, >> I do want to get back to um some of these unlikely couples that we meet or ill- fated couples or whatever because there are some really important events that as you said earlier, Evan, swirl around the wedding scene and one of them is Crispen and Stylanne uh and their relationship and what eventually happens with her. a very tragic character obviously whose life has basically basically been dictated by the event that uh ended in her father being burned alive horrifically. Uh that was the defining event of her life. Uh and and and of course uh she and her her brother have this plot going on and she says to Crispen in that moment, whatever else happens, don't forget this what you saw in me tonight. You know, essenti I'm misquing it, but you know what I mean. I think that's what she meant. Um, so yeah, let's let's talk about Stylanne a bit too because there the women characters in this that are are really important. Uh you have um Stylanne and uh you have uh Jazelle who turns out to be a pretty clever uh in in her minations and and her decision kind of not not thought out but it turns out to be a stroke of genius because she ends up uh with Leantes in this same evening and of course uh we have the empress we need to talk about her more but perhaps later especially when we talk about the repercussions of the emperor's assassination but yeah your thoughts guys on on Stylanne perhaps we could go to and talk about her and and and the the relationship with Crispen uh which uh you know I think we got to see her humanity through him like she's not just a simple twisted villain uh we we got a different glimpse of her because of Crispen that we wouldn't have had otherwise but I don't know what are your thoughts on on all of this >> well we get a we get a sex scene with her and Crisen that is >> remarkably similar to a [laughter] lot of the sex scenes we've read so far GGK.
I mean, it is it is you got to have one in every GGK book. Um, there is >> some rough stuff there. Um, but before he even meets uh Silianne, he's with he's with Pertennius or the Procopius character, then he goes to meet >> Stillianne. Um, >> Right. Right. She is a very interesting character because in the in in the historical version of this the the wife of Bellisarius who is ba who who is Leantes is based on character >> is also a lowerass woman like Theodor Theodora you know and and Kay felt that he didn't want two of that same sort of um kind of character so he made her into this patrician-like character and I think it elevates the story so much because she has a clear kind of um >> she has a yeah she has she has a class hatred for for what the uh uh uh Alex is and how and Justinian because Justin not just I'm sorry real >> polaris >> but their Justinian and Justin before him were low uh lowborn people before they rose up through the ranks to become emperor. So to have this um this woman who is from the patrician classes felt that her her father uh you know deserved to be the emperor because of his lineage. Um and obviously that's what her brothers felt too. I love what that puts into motion the perspective it gives gives us on um the other characters like Alexander.
Kyle, any thoughts on these characters?
>> Um, I love your thoughts on that. I I agree with a lot of it. Um, I I think my least favorite pairing in in this entire Maybe if I thought about it, there might be a different one, but I don't Chrisen and uh Stelliana like don't like I don't get it at all. Like when people criticize like, "Oh yeah, all these women like uh Crispen." I can steal man choice for each one of the other women.
Like I'm like, "Okay, he saved uh Cassia." Like, you know, um I think Alexiana is I mean that's that one's a little bit of a stretch, but I can at least see how they were like kindred spirits to a degree. Like I can I can actually buy the connection between them in terms of like a like a spiritual like intellectual connection. Um >> yeah, Jazelle is like her Well, I don't think that was really romantic so much as it was like her utilizing her sexuality on him. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
And then also like Shiron I just think was like just found him attractive more than anything. But stilliana I'm just like this is I I don't get it. Like on reread I thought that I would like maybe see more of it. But I'm just like I just think this is this is the main character syndrome for sure. That's the only one where I feel like that is where it is.
He's like oh what if everybody wanted Crispen? I'm like you could have pulled back with one character. But um I think she's a brilliant character otherwise.
Like I I don't like that has nothing to do with my feelings for them individually. Um, I just don't like even I agree with what you said, Philip, about how I think we saw her humanity through Crispen and like she's not like a one dimension. I just >> don't get why it's with Crisen. Like I don't see what attracted her to him.
Like why she showed up at his house or his room like >> ridiculous, but whatever.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so, but I will say that the relationship that really really intrigues me beyond the obvious one of Alexiana and Stilliana and their hatred there is Valarius and Stilliana. Because I think Valyrias's chief flaw here and like I would say it's a virtue um in life like this is a like is this mercy like like it's good that he has mercy but he had these three people live and I think most emperors would not let these kids live. Um and that is his downfall.
Um and it's interesting his arrogance and hubris with Stilliana. Um and I think it would be really easy. I was thinking about it this way um on my reread of like I think a lesser author would have made it be sexism a little where like they would have Valarius be like oh well she's a woman we'll be like she'll be tractable like we'll be um we'll be able to like plate her and actually it was that he respected her intelligence so much he was so convinced that he would be able to turn her and because he's like she's very smart she's one of the smartest people here so I think that I can turn her and get her into like my plans like he he was you banking on her intelligence triumphing over her um desire for vengeance and when she laughs at the idea of like him burning and uh she's like I'll burn with you when when he like grabs her and he's like I was wrong. Oh my god I I was completely wrong. This woman's chief thing is not that she's intelligent.
It's her revenge. Her desire for revenge is the thing that motivates her. the thing that drives her. And no matter what my plans were for her that would have never gotten past that revenge.
There was nothing I could have done to get her past this, this is what she her heart's desire was revenge. And just this like realization he had in that moment that he had like both overestimated and underestimated her.
Like he just completely misread her as as what drives her. And I think that was so interesting. Um I think a lot of worse authors would have made that a more cut and dry reasoning. And I thought that's a very complex reason for Valyrias to have been like met his downfall.
>> Yeah. Well said.
>> That's a great point.
>> Let's run through who let's let's run through who has sex after the wedding.
>> So I want to talk about [laughter] Gazelle and Leanti. So let's >> So there's there's Shireen and Scordius.
Jazelle and Leantes. Carolus and Kazia, you know, but that's marital.
>> Okay. Then they're getting married.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And Chris and Stellion. So, you want you want to do [laughter] >> I think Jazelle is one that really interests me because it's a spur-of the- moment decision in a way for her. Um, and I thought she had some great moments in this book, by the way. Like, for example, I loved when she climbs the scaffolding and uh and manipulates Crispen in that moment and and makes a scene on purpose uh to get people talking and how she is kind of shoved aside, but she won't have it. you know, she she and Crispen plays a role, of course, in bringing her before Leante's in the end and really twisting uh victory into defeat for uh Stylianne and and uh you know uh and her brother who's remaining he the the useless brother who really didn't do much anyway, the coward.
But yeah, Jazelle uh impressed me in this one uh because she succeeded in uh well, she's the winner in the end essentially. Um but it's not just, you know, she wants to be victorious for her own ambition. She's trying to save her homeland as well. She's trying to save Batierra from being invaded. Uh as and then Chrisen is much more impotent. He he also feels bad about it, but he's just kind of like, well, what can I do?
I'm just a mosaicist. I'm just an artist, you know. Um, and he's so impressed and and and overwhelmed by Valyriius and his genius. Uh, and and I buy into it, too. I think Valyri is I'm ruining I didn't want him to die. And yet, look at the stuff he does. He's he's proposing invading an entire country to fulfill his ambition. He burned a man alive. You know, in many ways, he's actually a terrible person.
Um but but I was rooting for him because he's he's >> everybody burns one person a lot. Come on. Everybody [laughter] does one.
>> So anyway, Jazelle really impressed me and I I thought she had some great moments in this book. Uh so I don't what your thoughts are and that she ends up with Leante's in the end the golden girl uh with uh with him with the golden boy in the end uh with Batiierra being spared the invasion which again guy Gabriel K is subverting history here or changing the story because as we we discussed last time the historical character that Jazelle is based on actually died in that assassination.
Yeah. Um and so she wouldn't have been in part two, right? But because she's there, the invasion of Rome, Batiierra doesn't happen, right? Um and and uh but that's because of her determination at the end uh along with getting some help from our boy Crispen. Uh so yeah, any thoughts on her or um and Leantis, their their eventual?
>> She she's admittedly a character that I don't think about as much in this book.
Like I I everything you say like I agree with. Like I think she's great. I just like when I think of my emotional reactions or intellectual engagements with the book both times, um she's usually on the lesser side of things. Um but I do love that like just her determination to save her people and like yeah, she does end up being the winner of this like game. Um because Leontes was already close enough like like Leanti's distance is is very small, but like she really had to work to get to where she was and she did it. Um, I think we could have maybe used a little bit more with her in the first book to make this a little bit more powerful for me. Um, because the second book is just so overcrowded with characters and I and I love that. Like I I I think it's a a boon, not a disservice to the book, but some characters get lost in that. And because Jacelle ends up being so important to the endgame, I think there should have just been more in the first book with her or just like this book could be slightly longer with more from her or something. I don't know. I it's not like I don't think it was welldeserved. It just like to me I was like, "Oh yeah, that's like how this should go." Like it was a really good victory for her, but I I never felt like um to me all the things at the end that are important are like um Crisp and the other characters saying bye to each other and like Rustm like going to Spain and like all these other characters endings feel more impactful to me.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, I like Jazelle. I mean I I liked the way she's kind of kept in the wings.
I mean, I think to a certain extent he's got to keep her in the wing so that the ending can be surprising enough because it is a surprise that that's how it works out. And obviously this Gazelle and Leonte scene earlier in the book makes it so that it's not completely inconceivable that they might be, you know, um a match later on. Um but I do like there's a there's a scene the scene before she goes up the scaffolding to to to manipulate Crisen. It's a very typical Guy Gabriel K scene where uh Jazelle is it's the same scene where she's waking up over by the um by the city and we don't get a description of that. But then what happens is the succession of people come to visit her at her at her home that she's been set up with. And one person by person she is dissecting how they fit into the hierarchy of uh of power in Serantium and that she she is a she is a power player and and that that is that is something that is that is shown so beautifully in the scene. you know, she's not if she does pick up on physical things, it's because they are somehow symbols of what that person uh means to the society or what that person is trying to get out of her. So, I think she is a um a shrewd character. Um and uh I I uh like to me it's to me her sections are not as poignant. for example, like of all these pairings in the um in the in the post-wedding Citus uh AON [laughter] people Randy. Okay. Like >> no, the one the one um the one that's my favorite is is the Crispen and Pretenius section. Um and Pretenius is a character >> uh there was nothing romantic about that though. Yeah, >> there was nothing romantic. [laughter] But I actually thought when Krisen went into his house like what what's happening here? All of a sudden Chris all of a sudden Kristen because that's where he ends a chapter with like the door closing and I thought wow Chrisman just became much more interesting. Um, I want to talk about Pretendius because he is the Procopius character, right?
And the the historian figure of the book >> who um the real Procopius writes the history of the wars of Belisarius and he writes about the building projects and he's the primary source of the reign of Justinian. But then in the 1600s they find in the Vatican this book called the secret history which is something he wrote that wasn't found till all this time later that is just a vicious vicious uh taking apart of Justinian and Theodora accusing them of all kind of like uh dark arts, magic uh like sacrifices, sex, all kinds of crazy stuff. And we we actually get this amazing scene in Lord of Emperors where uh uh Pretenius is just wasted. Uh uh Crisen is there. He falls asleep and he's like looking around on the table and we see a section of the um of the secret history. And you know that >> crazy I I did not know this. This is like >> oh it's it's it's >> makes that seem so much better to me.
Yeah.
>> The fact that it didn't get found until 1620. Um and and and Kay has written, you know, because we're talking about history as a big theme of this book.
>> Yeah.
>> And Kay has written like, you know, for characters like Justinian from all this time ago, we are so dependent on what a historian says um to know what actually happened or what they may have been like. And the fact that we have these two totally competing narratives of what the reign of Justinian was like, maybe behind the scenes or not, um is um it goes right to his theme of the historian is the one who essentially will will construct our understanding of what the past is. And like I said, it's extra poignant that the historian is the one that ends up stabbing um uh stabbing uh uh >> hilarious. And there's this great quote.
>> I think I'm about to Okay, you sent me a quote.
>> I have a quote lined up.
>> I want I want I want to show it because it's so good. Uh from right after he kills them. um where it's he was seldom he was so seldom noticed an historian a recorder of events hovering and gray I love that I love I mean that's a good that's a good uh adjective gray present everywhere but not ever someone who ever played any kind of role in events going up the stairs swiftly then hurrying through the palace toward an upper st staircase and an enclosed walkway that led to the rear of the cathema he was already casting his mind after phrase phrasings a way to begin the proper tone of detachment and reflection. So now we're back into this like omnisient narrator, you know, detached a reflection at the outset of a chronicle was it's so important how you start your chronicle of the history. Even the most prefuncter study of past events teaches that Jad's just retribution for the god godless and evil may be long in coming.
But you know, so [laughter] It's it's >> it's perfect. It's perfect. It >> really is. Yeah.
>> Uh that wasn't the line that I had. It's like right after this page, I think. Um which is very like relevant to the theme of this, which is uh the records can miss everything. Of course, so much depends on what else is preserved in writing, in art, in memory, false or true or blurred. And that's when he's going back and like they're in the the thing with Stelliana and Leantes and like Leontes kills Elizabeth and and stuff like that. and he's like, "I'm not ever going to write about this, but I need to know about it." And then he he says that and I I thought that was really putting a fine point on the the idea that he gets to choose what's in the histories and but there's so much more. And then that even just tying it into an art and memory is like bridging the gap for the reader of like the from history to art to memory which are kind of like three of the big themes here of like what you remember and obviously how art can make you move and then history.
So, I feel like that one sentence just like brings together all of the themes in one really compact statement.
>> And Partenius's passage from this from his little secret history is an echo of the hatred that Stellion harbors for uh Alexand. Um and so you have that same kind of feeling uh running through these these two characters and you see what a character like Alex is up against. And speaking >> while I was looking for that, I found the quote that I had highlighted about uh Valyrias earlier recognizing um Stilliana's intelligence not being the thing that motivates her. And I just think it's a really good quote. So I just want to read it real quick. Um he he had thought had always believed >> Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. I'm still here.
>> Oh, that's okay.
>> Um he had thought had always believed intelligence could overmaster hatred given time toutelage. It is not so. He sees now too late. Aliana was right.
Geis was right. Stilliana, brilliant as a diamond, might welcome power and wield it with Leantes, but it is not her need, not the key to the woman. The key beneath the ice of her was fire.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. And speaking of Alex, who becomes Aliana again at the end of this because of events. Uh let's let's talk about her for a while because I think uh her her thread in here becomes more poignant particularly in the moment when she knows because of the assassination attempt on her which was averted basically by Crispen. Um, and he's a little bit late, but he he does he does finally explain actually there was a magic bird that actually was was serving as this guy's eyes and he knew it was you the whole time. And uh and then there's the assassination attempt. Uh and which he helps to avert by pushing the one uh uh what were they the excubators.
>> The excubers. Yeah.
>> Yeah. He pushes the one who was trying to kill the the faithful one and helps save the faithful one's life uh who was then able to get her back to uh the city. But um but yeah, she knows in that moment when she's in the boat that uh that Valyrias is gone. Um that >> and her life is over. and her life is over and and she is in already making preparations like I mean she shows a stunning uh intelligence even in that moment in an overwhelming emotional devastating moment uh she's already making prep tearing up her dress scrubbing her face getting ready to be I mean I love the how she uses her acting skills uh throughout to be >> Yeah it's great >> and then to assume these different roles and then we learn that she was the one who visited um Rustm earlier to to find out about uh if she could become pregnant. I thought that was a great little touch. I I didn't see see that one coming at all.
>> No.
>> But but yes, uh and and she makes her way back to the city and uh the only thing keeping her alive there is is vengeance, but I she's powerless really to obtain it. And and then I think one of my favorite scenes is when she shows up at Rustam's place of all places.
>> That that is a great scene. ask for asylum, you know, basically. And of course, the soldiers show up and she's uses her acting skills. She's got enough spirit left to to summon her acting skills again and and even swear in Bassinian and and and play that role and and u to a shocking shockingly effective degree for poor Rustm. [laughter] and and Rustin Rustom slaps her and I could in that moment I was like oh at a moment I could just put myself in her shoes like >> are you serious right now you know [snorts] >> later she's like no you did well that was good yeah >> yeah yeah >> but it's interest it's interesting to think because we have that famous uh speech remembered in the first book which is taken right from the pages of history >> that she would rather you know it's during the Nika riots or the victory riots that it would be much better to die um uh in the purple of royalty than slink away in exile.
>> But this is a more human this is a human version and and Theodora actually historically she died of we think what cancer or something. Uh >> yeah, it was yeah, nothing nothing nefarious.
>> But Alex or Aliana lives on and uh I'm particularly interested what you thought of her the ending where she shows up in Batierra at the chapel and uh sees herself on the wall and and and ends up with Crisen at the end uh instead of Sharon because I was expecting Sharan to show up. Of course.
Yeah, >> of course. Kay does a little switcheroo there on me. And I was like, first I was like, wait, what?
But then I thought, >> did you ever feel Did you ever feel either of you, did you ever feel the Crispen, Aliana, Alex? Did you feel that that was set up, you know, or or or is it merely >> Was it earned? Are you asking was it earned?
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, earn is a weird word for it because um none of the the links that that that Crisen makes with any of the female characters are like uh some kind of big romantic story. Um in fact, his romance is over. I mean, he had a wife and he had kids and they're gone. And his grief is such a huge part of the first book in this one. Um, and he has diances with these characters. And in in the moment in the sex scene with Stillion, he even says that that was a big moment in terms of getting over uh the grief he had. He was able to sort of come back into himself a little bit. And there moments he has with Alex. Um, I don't think it it doesn't feel like the perfect like it doesn't feel like the perfect pairing, but also the book I think is also saying that there really is no perfect pairing for >> I think K says that a lot. He says that >> this one is >> and this one is good for both of them.
Um, and it works for both of them and we are led to believe that it's going to continue to work.
>> Yeah. And the the moment for me and I agree with what everything you just said that convinced me, okay, I think maybe this does work was when they're in the boat uh and she asks him, how did you >> how do you go on living?
>> How do you go on living when when you've lost your your spouse?
>> That was the moment where I thought, okay, yes, there is something very important they have in common here. Uh yeah, and he clearly >> I mean basically I mean he was almost worshipful of her uh prior to this but uh you can see there was definitely attraction. We never really got as much into her POV. So whether or not she felt any actual like attraction for him before then is not clear. Um but >> yeah, I also think she was like clearly very in love with Valarius. Um and so um that would have I I just think that at the time she wouldn't have thought of him that way. Uh, my first read, >> a year has passed, so >> yeah, my first read, I was a little I was way more like on Evan's spectrum of this. I'm like, I don't hate it, but I don't I don't really um on reread, I think it worked way better for me. Um, I I now that I knew that was the ending, I I do think that like it's it's set up like reasonably well. Like I I I don't think it's perfect. I I think he could have done some more stuff. Uh, but I I really think the key is that she asks him like, doesn't she ask also ask him in sailing to Serantium, how did you go on living or was that somebody else? I know that it's get asked twice, >> but I can't remember who asked the first time.
>> This one, but you might be wrong. I don't.
>> Um, but yeah. So, she says like, "How did you go on living?" And so, they have this shared connection of they're the only two people that have lost a spouse that like I mean that they love like the auntie loses a spouse, but nobody cares.
>> I don't think he loved her very much.
>> Yeah, exactly. Um, and they do have this like I do think they have like a a very deep connection in terms of what their interest was like. I mean, with the dolphins and stuff and what the dolphins mean to her and they're this like um uh heretical thing that like she's not really supposed to care about so much and she like confides that with Crisen.
And Crisen is also like for better or worse um around for like an extremely extremely like hard time for her and saves her life, which like I'm not saying that you should just fall overhead like like but like it's still like you're going to think back to that with like more fondness and like he helped save her and and she was already trusting him. Um, but I I really think the key of it is how did you go on living and like she didn't think she was going to live? Like the whole narrative of after he die after Petrus dies is that she's going to die. She's I'm going to die. I'm going to kill Siliana and I'm out of here like peace. And then she doesn't do that. And so we're missing that year of time with her. And I I don't think the narrative has time for it. like I I guess you could technically like give her a couple chapters in that interim or like a couple pages to bridge that gap, but I think it's doing that um to try to surprise the reader as well cuz like I think we all expect uh Siobhan and so the to keep the element of surprise and also just like the book is kind of wrapping up like you don't want to belabor the point maybe too much. Um but I I do think that like now she lives and she's no longer the empress. she's back to uh Aliana and she had this connection with somebody and they have this like shared grief that they've they're working through. Um and we don't know how long that journey took her or what the deal was there. But I I think it works a lot better when you when you're looking for it because the first time I was like this is God okay just being like wouldn't it be cool if we ended up with the empress like but I I do think there's a lot more going on than I think It's not a soulmate connection. It's not that type of >> for sure. Yeah.
>> You know, and so it doesn't have to be something where, okay, he laid all the seeds here. The the romantic tension is growing and growing and growing and growing and it feels that like feeling of closure for us at the end. It is it it is something that is possible and that works for both of them. And there is >> survivors. They're both survivors. Yeah.
>> There's a there's a line.
>> They could have just gone on being they could have just gone on being friends, too. I mean, but you know, it's it it it it works as it is. And there is a short story >> uh that Kay wrote that's set after this book in which >> Alex has two kids with Crisen and it's like about their I haven't read it, but it's like about their lives.
>> What? How about this? Where is this?
What did you just come in from? Some sort of bizarro alternate universe? I've never heard about this crazy. That's the first thing.
>> I think I I mean I could be completely wrong, but I'm almost positive that's the case. I think you can read about it on the on the Wikipedia for >> I have to read about it. Yeah, I have >> Yeah, I I >> I think he wrote I think he wrote the short story as like part of like some kind of you know charity thing or whatever. I don't know. But it does revisit those characters.
>> Um the quote that I had highlighted about this was you had to live Chrisen thought in order to have anything to say about living but you needed to find a way to withdraw to accomplish that saying. I think that that's doing a lot of uh narrative work in the background of the idea that like they they both just have to keep on living. They have to find ways to keep living and like um it's a it's a running joke amongst me really only myself that I can't go a live stream without mentioning The Wire, which is the greatest TV show of all time. But in that show um there is a scene where uh Bubbles has a monologue and I don't want to spoil for anybody who has not watched The Wire. Great show. Go watch it. Um but in that he's like talking about some grief that he has. like it's okay to um to hold on to grief as long as you make room for something else for other things too.
>> Um and I I really feel like that's what they're doing there too is like they the loss of his wife and his daughters and her loss of Petrus will never go away but they have to keep on living. Um and and um they find that connection in each other. So >> that's beautifully said, Kyle. Yeah.
Yeah. Well said. So, what about the um the mosaic under the dome that is no more?
>> Oh, man. Yes. Uh this is the most incredible thing about the book to me.
Not my favorite part. Um but especially the first time I read this book, remember we talked about now I appreciate art. I I saw the children of time thing. I was inspired. I was like, "Oh my god, art has value now." Um but the first time I read it, I was just like, "Yeah, I don't care about mosaics.
Like, I don't I do not care." Um and he's just going on and on about this.
And it's not like I didn't like appreciate what he was trying to do with it in terms of my investment in this mosaic or anything else. I I don't care about seeing the hagosphere. I'm uncultured swine. I don't care. Um and then and then I'm driving to see Guy Gabriel. Okay. And he's talking about this mosaic having to come down. And the the line is um uh I have work to do up there. His daughters today's task memory and craft and light. They will only bring it down.
The secretary's voice was uncomprehending. Crisen did turn then to look back over his shoulder. They were staring at him, the three of him. So were others in the sanctuary. He said, "I understand, but they will have to do that. Bring it down. I will make what I make in this civilized holy place.
Others will have to give the orders to destroy as barbarians destroyed Rodias since it could not defend herself." And then like like very briefly right after that, he says it wasn't a waste. there was meaning to this as much as he could bring to bear on any single action in his life but it was an ending another journey lay ahead home at the end of it.
Um just the idea that like he was memorializing his wife and kids in this and like other stuff too but like his whole all of his grief and you know he's a mosaicist but like the whole story he has been depressed and like he has hasn't really felt that joy for life and he starts to throughout this uh throughout this journey like the the books um and he puts it all into his art which is like like tying back to what I said at the very beginning where like now that I do 988 uh and like talk to people when they're like very depressed um that's that's very frequently what people give people through which I I think you don't need to do that kind of work to know that but hearing how people talk about it is really impactful and how like just like the idea of like being able to draw something that they really loved has gotten them through like the darkest time in their life or something like that and so then when he's doing all of this and they're going to bring it down anyway and it's a loss it's this crippling loss that this will not be there for all time that people will not know um sorry I I know that I'm going on but there was a a brief part up here Um, uh, dang, I can't find it. Okay. Anyway, but >> where was talking about >> how um, somebody will look up and know that an unnamed man loved this woman and kids like like they don't have to know, but that will be there for all time. So, he has to deal with this heartbreaking loss that that will not be there, that his art will not stand the test of time. And then he decides in that moment, I have to finish it anyway.
this isn't for you. You can do whatever you want to do. Barbarians destroyed Rome, all of their culture, all their history, all of their memory. They came through the gates and they destroyed.
That's all they knew how to do. They destroyed. But I am a mosaicist. And god damn it, I create. And he went up there and he had finished what he had to do.
And then he was done. And he got out all that grief and there was a new journey, the journey home. And I just even like rereading it the second time, I just reading it the second time, I was just like in tears. Like I just think it's so beautiful. Um, and it's not like my the chariot scene is my favorite scene, but in terms of what >> that does for me emotionally, is just >> so so strong.
>> And I think it's crucial, too, that his of the new mosaic in the chapel, which is not going to be seen by a lot of people like that one would have been, >> uh, his whole attitude toward it has changed. He has ch changed as a person.
He has almost transcended in a sense.
Uh, he's outgrown Leante's and the others. And boy, there are moments when I like Leonte's fine. Uh, and then the thing is I can't stand it when people destroy art. It just I have a it's it's physically painful for me particularly when the motivation is is sort of a a religious one. Uh, where and that is Leantes. I mean very principled guy I suppose but um he has no compunction whatsoever. He doesn't understand what he's destroying and and it makes me so like ah but but Crispen has actually I think transcended that and you can see it in his attitude toward the new mosaic that he's making. It's a private conversation between him and his understanding of the human experience.
Uh and and he's able to express what he was trying to express on that giant vault that that dome. uh he's able to do it in a more humble way, but in a way that digs just as deep, that is just as meaningful at the end. So, I thought that was >> yeah, it's it's it's a beautiful it's a beautiful summation to so many of the themes that he's been talking about up until this point. Um to bring first of all to bring in the real history the iconocclasm forward in time.
>> Yeah. um and and put it into Leante's um is a great move because we get this beautiful scene. What Philip and and and and Kyle are talking about about you know for for Crispen it's the act of doing it that is the important thing um as much as he wants something to live on and endure um the fact that he did it and this the line that that always gets to me is when he says they're going to take it down and he says they're going to have to do that that's an action too.
>> Yeah. So until they do that, I'm going to continue the work that I have to do.
But it also goes to this, you know, much much larger thing about what we leave behind and what doesn't get left behind.
Um, and about the role of the artist and the role of this story. And I mean, one interesting thing about this book is that there are lots of forms of art in this book that are not inherently built to last, like Stro Strombosis's cooking.
Yes, >> that's an art, you know, but it doesn't have the the staying power, if you will, of what a mosaic could potentially have or what a painting could potentially have. Um, >> also what Scordius and uh, Terrace do with the when like Esther Gorus is like looking at it, he's like this is art and it's more beautiful by the fact that it was done the minute it was finished.
There's no It reminds me actually more of like wrestling and stuff where it's like you have to like put a performance into it.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, but KK K even said that. K said that you know um we can hear about the exploits of um athletes but even athletes as far as 150 200 years ago we can't ever experience what they did. I mean we can experience the paintings of uh we can experience the mosaics of of stuff that's happened in Justinian's reign. In fact, the mosaics that Crisen makes back in Verena are, you know, for all intents and purposes, the mosaics uh that are in Revena now of Justinian and the people around him. So Kay was deliberately invoking those ones which you can go now and see. They lasted for 1500 years. Uh but there are so many forms of expression that by their nature can't last and they uh they are eaten up by the you know uh the lord of emperors which is which is uh which is time in this book and there's a great conversation in the scene with Rustm and Alexander where she says something like uh you know uh you know maybe it's the the the the artists and the historians maybe they're the ones who are the real Lord of Emperors because they're the ones who are going to define us >> um in future in future days. Um and so this idea of and and and it made me think of my dad because >> my dad loves to build sand castles and when I was a kid, you know, every time we went to the beach every summer, every day, he'd build a new sand castle and they're amazing, you know, like he he's so good at it. People would come and watch and take pictures and stuff and, you know, the next morning >> gone.
>> That's all gone. Uh and he never cared, you know. I mean while I'm trying to like, you know, [laughter] I'm obsessed with making art that lasts.
He's got this great quality of not really caring. But that is essentially what's going to happen to everything we make.
>> Y >> it's going to get washed away by time.
Um and so the similar to Kyle, it's it's a it's it's a very emotional part of this book and it's a very poignant part that wraps up all the major themes >> and it was set up early too. He was warned by Sianne.
>> Yes. Mhm.
>> This Don't get too attached here, buddy.
Yeah.
>> That was our plan.
>> Yeah.
>> I know we're like wrapping up soon, but I do have to get going.
>> Um just uh baby baby's up and and [clears throat] my wife needs some help.
>> Oh, yeah. We're about done, I think. Um so, final words.
>> So, yeah. Uh I just wanted to say thank you for inviting me on this. It was a really great pleasure to talk about this. Um, also like Evan and Philip come with like prepared thoughts and like you know uh essays and and and all this stuff about about they're channeling their AP cannon. Um, I go off what is dubbed vibes. Um, and so I find like talking about this stuff so good because as I'm talking I'm realizing what a scene means to me or why I interpret it that way or or I'm bouncing off Evan.
I'm bouncing off Philip or I'm like, "Oh, I never thought about it that way."
And that ties into this. And so like these discussions are always just so great, especially with something as deep and rich as Guy Gabriel K.
>> So we're creating our own art here, aren't we?
>> We're creating our own art. And you know what? It's recorded. We are the Lord of everything.
>> And it's going to last forever. It's [laughter] going to last forever.
>> Um before I go, I just want I just want to share my uh my favorite quote from the book. Um which is I feel like a good place to end, but like obviously Evan can talk, but I'll leave after this. So this will be my ending.
>> And this is after Valeris dies. It is not recorded by anyone, for it never is, nor ever can be, whether he hears as he dies, an implacable, vast, infinite voice saying to him and to him alone in that corridor under palaces and gardens and the city and the world, "Uncrown, the Lord of Emperors awaits you now."
Nor is it known if dolphins come for his soul when it leaves, as it does leave, then unhoused for its long journey. It is known, but only by one person in the gods world, that his last thought as a living man is of his wife, her name. And this is so because she hears it and hearing somehow hearing him understands that he is going going from her is gone that it is over ended done after all the brilliant dance that had begun long ago when he was Petrus and she was Elelliana of the blues and so young and the afternoon sun is bright above her and all of them in a cloudless springtime sky over Sarantium. Um, I just think that is incredibly beautiful and poant and uh with that I have to go uh rescue my wife from my crying baby. Thank you guys for having me.
>> Thank you, Kyle. Thank you so much for >> Thank you so much, Kyle. It's great to meet you and wonderful to talk to you.
>> Yeah. So, I love that quote that Kyle ended with because I I do think that uh it it shows to the power and the importance of the human connection. uh yeah >> that uh there are so many beautiful and wonderful things we can do with our lives but in the end uh what I think matters most is those those connections that we make with with people uh and >> and even talking about books is one way we can do that. So >> yeah, I mean it's a poignant it's a poignant book. Uh and it's an eligic book too similar to some of his other ones.
>> We never talked about the uh uh and we don't have to but the the there the rise of Islam is happening in the background of all this.
>> Yes.
>> Um and that is another thing that will put an end to the world as the people in this novel know it. Um it's never mentioned but it's hanging over everything. Um, and >> you know, that's that's another beautiful poignant uh uh dimension to what's going on here. And it's and I feel that it's echoed in the sentiments of the quote that Kyle just read. The ending of things um is is always sad, but um >> yeah.
>> Yeah. Come on, man. We did it, Philip.
It's just me and you.
>> I know we're >> eight books halfway through the GGKR.
the GGGKR, the GGGKR being another of these life journeys, you know, uh that >> I compare it to the mosaic that Crisen made on the top of the Haga Sophia dome.
>> That's fair. That's fair.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It will be remembered long after we're gone.
>> Yeah. [laughter] But thank you, my friend. This has been another great uh discussion, another great journey, and I'm very glad that uh we're we're on this together. So, >> me, too, man. I can't wait for the second half.
>> Yeah, second part two. We are going to be meeting in oh a month or so to talk about uh Last Light of the Sun. Uh that's the the next one I believe. There it is. And I am so excited because look at that's a Viking ship. Woo. Oh, [laughter] there's a >> this is what what I'm excited about is book two in this series. That's what I'm excited about.
>> Thank you so much.
Little shout out to Allan who couldn't make this discussion but uh did did I think you can say you can agree he did an amazing job as the audio book.
>> Fabulous job of uh at the audio book. I was I was blown away but I was blown away by the book too. So I mean you know it all goes together.
>> Well thank you so much my friend. Much much appreciated. But that is it for us for now. Until next time.
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