Dr. David Goldreich - Rotman Professor

Ajouté : 2026-05-27

[00:00:00]You just get to think about ideas.

[00:00:02]>> Is there one specific thing that's holding them back?

[00:00:04]>> I wish I knew.

[00:00:07]>> We are joined today by Professor David, sorry, with Professor Dr. David Goldreg.

[00:00:14]>> Oo, don't forget that.

[00:00:15]>> Thank you so much for having us today, sir.

[00:00:19]>> Glad you're here. Glad you could come.

[00:00:20]Glad to speak to you. So sir, you have a a huge resume with wonderful academics, education. You could probably make millions in the private sector.

[00:00:33]So I guess have you >> Why am I doing this? Yeah.

[00:00:36]>> Why am I doing this? I mean, I don't know if I can make millions in the private sector, but again, there was a time I I'll maybe should I sort of back up and and and and say where those crossroads were and and and why I'm doing this because I started out, you know, um you know, I start I've been in academia my entire life, right? I went from undergraduate, I went to an MBA program, went to PhD program, and then just stayed in academia my entire life.

[00:00:58]But the um the crossroads of my career was when I was finishing up my MBA, I had a job offer at a bank >> and I had an offer to stay in the PhD program which would lead me onto a um onto an academic career and that's where the cross was. I still very much remember the decision anxiety um the I I still very much remember the decision anxiety of trying to figure out what I should uh uh be doing then and I decided to go the academic route. So I stayed in academia and the wonderful thing about being in academia. Academia means research and means teaching. All right.

[00:01:35]But it's certainly among for young academics it's it's it's more about research is you just get to think about ideas and try to understand the world better. And that's as you know as as a as a financial economist that's trying to understand the world of finance. Why are prices the way they are? Why do markets do what they do? And you try to figure something out that nobody else has figured out before and just figure it out. I don't have a boss that tells me what research to do. I mean I have the dean is my boss, right? But but but overall it's it's on me to figure out what research to do, how to do the research, and and just figure figure things out and and the idea of being able to to do that is just is really wonderful.

[00:02:19]>> And so you've worked in the UK, you've uh spent a lot of time in the US and in Canada as well.

[00:02:27]>> Yes. out of these countries or any other country that you may have visited, which one do you think takes the best approach to the educational system in terms of postsecary?

[00:02:38]>> I mean, generally speaking, um, like saying like I went I went to I I grew up in Toronto. I I went to school in the States, worked in in the UK. Um, the US is really the leading country in post-secary education. There's a reason why so many foreign students come to the US. is a reason why the US is is is is leading that has become is the epicenter of academia is is the US. Look, Canada's doing wonderful things. We got wonderful things going on here in Canada. We've got there's a lot of wonderful things going on in the UK. Um and then of course the US has has has some problems. You know, the cost of education in the US is is absurdly expensive. Um but that is the epicenter of where new ideas are being created.

[00:03:26]The top people with the best ideas are in the US primarily. Um, you know, different fields are are are are in different places, but but overall and >> for idea generation and for coming up with with with new knowledge, it's really important that that people are surrounded by other people who are also working on the same idea. You know, you can't it's not like you go up into your attic and and and you think about deep ideas and come up with some wonderful insights. No, much much more likely is that you're talking to a colleague after a seminar and you're discussing the ideas and that's how ideas get uh generated and in the US if you're in like like like a university in the US right and I'm saying I said the US overall right for education uh but on the other hand with University of Toronto which is a fantastic place um you want to be you want to be surrounded uh by people like that. Having said that right in my field which is you know finance right when I was I was coming out the US was really where it's at since then right in the intervening decades um first of all Europe has become much better right there a lot of schools in Europe that have become very very very good Asia's become much much better right there a lot of schools in Asia that are doing really good things and again and and and while you want to be surrounded I will also add that nowadays distance doesn't matter as much as it used to be in the olden days, right? You want to work with somebody in in in in Australia. In the olden days, you had to get on a boat and spend a few weeks to go to Australia. Now, you get them on a Zoom call and and you can have a conversation as well about that. So, overall, academia in the US, it's kind of and I I I and and I will add, you know, and think about just education.

[00:05:13]you take a look at the educational the education that students get um the educa you know and again having worked in places where I have international students from all over um American students and again I'm going to this is please don't mistake this as anything other than a gross overgeneralization um American education tends to value creativity >> okay >> right so come up come up with your own ideas come up with creative new and interesting ideas. Uh the American system tends to encourage that whereas other systems around the world where it's more rope learning um and and and and that doesn't get you as far.

[00:05:52]>> Um you were one of those students not too long ago I imagine and uh you told a story of you parking in a certain professor's parking space when you were in the US.

[00:06:04]>> 100% 100% true story. First of all, it was a long time ago, right? It was a long time ago. Um, and the story the story that I told you especially the the short version of the story now the story that I told in class because this had this the reason why you're bringing this up is because in class we talked about financial markets and we talked about markets responses to to to to events happening. And we talked about the space shuttle blowing up, how the market reacted to the space shuttle blowing up up in um in 1986, January 1986. And there was the Rogers commission that was that was um that was put together in order to figure out why the space shuttle blew up. But anyways, at that time in 1986, right, I was an undergraduate at Caltech, right?

[00:06:53]Caltech's a tiny little tiny tiny little school. um but obviously very well known very very well known for science and um I was about you know your age at the at the uh time and the story was is that I had to go to the campus to get to fill out drop off a form at the administrative offices or something like that I don't remember what and I drove to campus in my in my old junky piece of piece of junk car that I had then my my student life uh car um and I drove to campus the problem they had then as they have now and every place have said it's impossible to find parking. So I circled around and circled around and circled around looking to find parking. And then I see one spot there, an open spot, and the professors had individual parking spots, their own parking spots. And one part on it, it said Fineman, Richard Fineman. And so those of you, I don't know who was listening in may or may not have heard of Richard Fineman. Richard Feineman was the um probably the second most famous physicist of the 20th century after Einstein uh won the Nobel Prize in 1965.

[00:08:01]Um and and at on the Caltech campus he was considered God, right? He was like he was >> he was the you know he was he was the the the the most famous person uh uh there and he was on the Rogers commission trying to figure out what happened to the space shuttle. And this is right at the time early 1986 when the Rogers Commission was going on in Washington. Fineman was on the Rogers Commission. Um, and I was looking for a parking spot and there was a parking spot that said Fineman on it. So, my thought was I think it's I don't think it was unreasonable to say, right, he's in Washington doing whatever, you know, his important stuff there. I need a parking spot for five or 10 minutes.

[00:08:46]So, I took the spot and I run into the the the administration sign, give whatever papers I need to give them or whatever that was. And I when I come out, as I'm walking down, walking towards my car, there I saw in front of the parking spot was Fineman in his famous Fineman van, right? Uh if anybody here watched the Big Bang Theory, they they actually um they actually talk about the Fineman van. Um, and there he was looking this way, looking that way, wondering, "Hey, who's in my parking spot?" Right? And so I was, you know, and again, I I was this, you know, young young, you know, 20-year-old kid. Uh, uh, uh, um, and here's the most famous person we know is is there. And, and so I come scampering over to, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You know, I didn't." And he just came like the stern, you know, like, "Okay, I've done that myself, but don't do it again." And I drove. Anyways, that was my that was my fineman story.

[00:09:42]>> And is that the reason the Rottman garage doesn't have any reserved parking spaces?

[00:09:46]>> And and here I don't get reserved spots here. I have to take the TTC like everybody else. Here I have to take the TTC like like everybody else. Um but anyways, that was that was my brush with with physics fame. Um he died uh in 1988. Um but um right before I graduated, but uh that was the story.

[00:10:06]The UAE recently left OPEC, sir. What's your reaction to that?

[00:10:11]>> Yeah. Um, the UAE left OPEC just a few days ago or they announced they were leaving leaving OPEC. Um, excuse me. I don't have, you know, deep insights on why they left OPEC, why they left now, or or exactly how big the UAE is in the oil market, but I got to tell you, as an economist, that's a good thing, right? Cartels, right? you would have learned in in in Eco101 or anybody taking economics, one of the first things you learn when you take take when you when you learn economics, one of the the key insights is is that that markets are very good things and when you have competitive markets, it's good for you know it's it's good all around to have competitive markets. Makes us a more prosperous place. Um and um but monopolies are not good. If you have one company owning the entire that that is the only supplier of a particular good, right? That's not a competitive market, right? It's a market, but it's not competitive. And you would learn in economics that when you have a monopolist, and I'm going somewhere with this.

[00:11:11]>> Yeah.

[00:11:11]>> When you have a monopolist, the monopolist reduces the supply that otherwise would have been produced. So, there's less stuff being produced, raises the prices, and then as consumers, we get hurt. We pay higher prices, and there's just not enough to go around uh what of what there is. So, the monopouist makes a ton of money. Um but then the rest of us in society gets hurt by monopoly. Um and um a cartel, OPEC is a cartel, right? A cartel is artificially artificially forming a monopoly. It's making something even worse. So if you have a a a u a an industry that should be competitive, you have a b whole bunch of suppliers, whether it's oil producers or anything else, you have a a whole bunch of suppliers, right? And there should be competition between the suppliers and everybody should be trying to give us the most for our money and everybody should try to charge as little as possible and everybody and everybody should should be um uh trying to charge us as little as possible and give us the best service that they possibly can. Right? Instead, they get together and they form a cartel. And a cartel says, "Hey, let's all treat ourselves like we're a monopoly, okay? We'll get all together.

[00:12:21]We'll split up the market. We'll charge the higher price as if we were a monopoly. That way we all make more profits, lower the lower the quantity of production, and that's and that's what OPEC is. OPEC artificially raises the price of oil. So if one major component of OPEC breaks away and says, "No, I'm doing this on my own, that could only be good, right? They make less money, but for the rest of the world, it's a positive. So I'm in favor." How many dollars will it affect oil prices?

[00:12:48]>> I don't know. That's that's a hard question that requires all sorts of estimation. I don't I don't know uh uh how much but it is um but directionally it's a good thing >> and there's also a lot of uh African countries that are moving into oil more recently. Do you think that them drilling or uh extracting that oil has a future? Well, I would think I don't I don't know specifically because I don't know I don't know what the facts are on the ground, but for us, for for the world, for the producer, right? More competition is a good thing. More people producing oil, right? And and I'm I'm completely, by the way, staying away from any questions about if oil is good for the environment. That's that's a separate question. Separate question that that that can be addressed is is about is is about the environmental impact of all. But but but if um you're talking about production of oil, the more the marrier, right? It is good for the African countries. I mean Africa is it is such a shame. Africa is sort of stuck in poverty, >> right? Africa, you take a look at so I'm just I just have to go on this tangent if you don't mind. Right? If you take a look at how the world has progressed over the past number of decades, >> the world has become a much much wealthier place. So many people have risen out of poverty primarily through opening of markets and and and and free trade and you know you know uh uh has has has has so many people have risen out of poverty and we take a look at the total number of of poor people in the world right it's just declined dramatically all over the world except Africa Africa seems to be something wrong that it gets stuck in poverty and I'm not sure if it has something to do with the nature of the governments there right or or you know something something's wrong that a Africa that's a problem that needs to be solved right how to bring prosperity to Africa right because Africa uh has not shared in China has grown tremendously right if you take a look India has grown tremendously if you take a look at at people moving out of poverty right China India are the two big E right South America's done done done done well um Africa hasn't so if to the extent that there's more industry in Africa more ways that Africa Africa can can can earn wealth, hopefully reinvest that wealth in a way that that can that can then make a Africa more conducive for value creation in the future. That would be a good thing. So I'm I'm >> yeah, >> it would be a good thing.

[00:15:20]>> So like just because we're on the topic of Africa, they have a lot of natural resources those nations. So do you think that there's and like whether it's gold or diamonds or oil or whatever it may be or even just natural beauty with tourism if you look at uh countries like Tanzania with Mount Kellanjaro what do you think I guess is there one specific thing that's holding them back >> I wish I knew I wish I knew the answer right the answer it's a fantastic question >> question that I wish I knew what the um uh what the answer is we're living here in Canada has lots of natural resources that we want to be able to then and that's part of what makes Canada wealthy, not part of it. And so so Africa has all of these resources and you think they should be wealthier.

[00:16:05]What's holding them back? I can speculate, right? I can speculate often it's an issue that that the institutions aren't good. The governments are are are you know the governments might be I don't again I don't want to I don't want to speak out of turn. I don't want to say the governments might be corrupt because I'm sure some you know we have corruption all over the world of different levels, right? But there's something that's stopping people from turning those resources into value for the for the uh company. And there also is this effect that sometimes when you have natural resources, it can actually be bad for the country because now there's something to fight over, right?

[00:16:36]So if you have a country that doesn't have strong rule of law, right? If you have a country that has strong rule of law and we discover, look, there's gold in the ground or something like that.

[00:16:43]Okay, so great, wonderful. let's hire some people to dig the gold out of the ground, sell the gold and and and use that money to buy other things and and then tax the take some tax money out of it and just sort of make make the country a better place. But on the other hand, if you don't have rule of law >> and then suddenly there's gold in the ground, there's something to fight over, right? There's something to fight over and that can so you can have that negative effect that that that that good natural resources can sometimes make problems worse. But >> but then the problem is the lack of rule of law, right? Right. It's not it's not really the resources that are the problem. It's the it's the resources and the lack of rule of law. But again, I I know that also has been all sorts of research on this, but men, if you if you ask me a pro a question, I'm someone who's push push say a little stronger.

[00:17:29]If you if you had to ask a question about where is the world not going in the direction that it should be going, >> yeah, poverty in Africa, right? The world had become a much more prosperous place over the decades and that's super valuable, super important, wonderful, wonderful thing. The world is a much better place than it was uh you know 100 years ago.

[00:17:52]>> Yeah.

[00:17:52]>> And that's the one place that you see this that that stuck that that that I think if if you know if you had to ask me what is the one thing that that we should try to figure out what sort of it would be that. And I guess as we look to the future with that, do you think it would be industries like natural resources like mining like u maybe oil maybe lithium whatever you may have it so essentially digging manufacturing or do you think AI would bring more profits? Like if you had to I guess pick a side which one do you think wins?

[00:18:24]>> Okay. Short answer is I don't know. What you what you need to do you know the the idea of of of world trade right? This is what makes what what makes what makes countries wealthy, what makes people wealthy is trade, right? Trade is this whole idea that everybody does their comparative advantage, right? I do what I'm good at, you do what you're good at, and then we trade in and and that makes us uh both better off. And the idea of comparative advantage was came up in the 1700s originally started by talking about different countries. You know, I think it was comparing England and Spain or Netherlands or something like that, right? That some countries are better at this, some countries are better at that.

[00:18:58]And you got to do with with your comparative advantage, right? The thing that you are better at, right, than than the thing that you're best at. And I think that's where one wants to go. So what is it? So if you if you if you're in an African country, what is it that your country can do that can provide something good for the rest of the world that other people can't do as well as you can do, right? I don't know what the answer I guess first of all it would be each country each country that would be a different answer. Uh um and and what do you have? So if you have natural resources great you have natural resources but again it has to be extracted prop properly. If you have you know if you have uh uh potential for tourism use that potential for for tourism if you can use it well but then again I think you know my my understanding is is again I'm no you know I don't want I'm afraid of going down this route because I am no expert on Africa at all. But you need infrastructure right? If you're going to if you're going to become wealthier, you need to have roads that can get that can bring stuff from here to there without much, you know, easily. You need to be able to build factories. You need to be you need to be able to you need to be able to expand the economy and you need to you need to you need to have a place where entrepreneurs can flourish that somebody with a good idea can start a business and and and and and uh turn into something valuable. So if you're asking me natural resources versus versus sort of some sort of new new technology, I'm kind of agnostic on that. I I really don't know. But but but you need an environment where people who have ideas can bring those ideas forward and create create wealth.

[00:20:37]>> Okay. Like I meant it more in terms of the industries themselves. Like even if we look at Canada, they're opening up the ring of fire. digging is set to start there in June, I believe. Um, and we also have a lot of developments in AI such as Open AI, the IPO that they're saying is around trillion dollars. So, I suppose what you're an expert on IPOs as well. So, what do you think about the trillion dollar estimate for their IPO?

[00:21:03]Yeah. I mean I mean we should all do in terms of of you know we as as a general rule we should we should use whatever >> resources we have available to be able to create and and and ideas that we have right resources everything from from minerals to the stuff in our heads where we can come up with ideas. We should do whatever we can in order to create goods and services that that that uh uh uh people want and so so but but but again you need specific expertise to do that.

[00:21:29]Now, in terms of IPOs, I mean an IPO is an IPO is a way of raising capital so that when you have an idea, right, and there's there's a number of steps before you get to the IPO, but when you have an idea, you can then bring in equity partners, equity ownership, right? Sell the shares to the public so that everybody else can become an equity owner in in your company, in your idea, and then and then and then go and produce whatever it is that uh you're producing.

[00:21:58]And then but and but when you have an IPO and again again you take an AI type of thing, right? And you do an IPO on an AI and the IPO valuations are so high.

[00:22:12]That's the marketplace telling you that the marketplace thinks that there's going to be a lot of value coming out of this, a lot of present value coming out of that's what the marketplace thinks.

[00:22:23]Now again market is not >> perfect. Market will sometimes say this appears to be good and then things change and and then and then and and you end up with a not as good an outcome as you think. You know you never know for sure right or or as I sometimes say you get the market price the market price tells you what the value is and then you roll the dice and sometimes the dice come out good sometimes dice come out come out bad. Um but um but if it appears that the prices are high right the share prices are high for the IPO that's the marketplace telling you that is that is people telling you that is the market telling you more important than people it's the market telling you that that yeah this thing this thing is going to be valuable.

[00:23:08]And another thing that we've talked about in class is uh like with the markets it's um like calls and puts and things like that. So do you think there would be a lot of I guess shorting of OpenAI stock because generally with IPOs the like when they first uh are announced the shares are trading at highs and then within the first few months they generally fall.

[00:23:34]So, do you think this now this might be a speculative question, but do you think chat GPT is or open AI is overhyped in terms of its value?

[00:23:43]>> It's hard to know. It's hard to know.

[00:23:44]Look, overall, my first my first my first go-to was always that the market knows what the market knows.

[00:23:51]Okay? And and and and we have to be very careful about second-guessing the market. Okay? We have to be very careful about second guessing the market. The market is a bunch of buyers and sellers, people putting the money where their mouth is. Having said that, having said that, the evidence seems to be that for reasons that I don't fully understand that when you have an IPO where the price goes really high, right, that there is a tendency for it to underperform for the next number of months, right, that the returns are not so great. So, personally, so I don't know why, but nonetheless, I trust the data enough to say that I don't want to buy shares the day after the IPO. And it could be something, right? Again, in the model that we use in class, in the model, in the basic model, everybody's perfectly rational. Everybody's everybody's based on making decisions based on on on on um their you know, unbiased estimates of of of value. Um and the value is is the value. But if you start but on the other hand, if you allow for some psychological effects in there and you say, wait, there's you know what, there's just a lot of demand just for people who are really hyped up, right? then you can then that would explain that potentially could explain why prices after an IPO are too high higher than fair value and that they'll tend to come down. But seriously, the numbers that we're talking about here, >> yeah, >> if it's overpriced by uh, you know, if it's overpriced by 10% or 20%. If it's overpriced, let me push you. If it's overpriced by 100%, the price is double what it should be.

[00:25:14]>> Yeah.

[00:25:15]>> It's still enormously valuable, right?

[00:25:17]It's still going to be a really really, you know, something, you know, something's going to be selling for for for $500 billion and you say, "No, no, it's only $250 billion or, you know, or a trillion dollars and no, it's not really worth a trillion dollars. It's only worth 800 billion."

[00:25:33]It's still, right? AI, again, I'm no expert on AI, but AI seems to AI here to stay and it seems to be something that has enormously valuable. I mean, you sort of see in some of the values in the stock market now. you see Nvidia's Nvidia's stock uh uh market cap, right?

[00:25:51]Right. We're only four four trillion dollars. Um is just ridiculously high.

[00:25:56]And I say ridiculously high, but again, maybe for may again my instincts are is to trust the market. But if I didn't trust the market, if I thought it was, you know, if I thought it would be coming down by 50%. Right? It's still crazy high. It's still $2 trillion. It's still, and I shouldn't say crazy, right?

[00:26:15]It's still it's still enormously high, right? It's still enormously high. There is definitely value there of some of of of of some sort, right? I'm not willing to say that it's all fake. And with the rise of AI and it's here to stay, you probably speak to a lot of executives, a lot of employers. Do you think that employers in let's say a field like investment banking or private equity are looking for more of the skills that they looked for maybe five or 10 years ago or do you think they're looking more for being able to use AI and innovate systems in their junior employees?

[00:26:50]>> Yeah, I think I think I mean AI has certainly changed the market for junior employees, right? Absolutely. has changed the market for junior employees.

[00:26:56]You certainly see that in the computer science world, the way that that code is now written, the first draft of code is written by um AI. And I think if I were to sort of think about if I were, you know, advise a a young person who's sort of getting out is that being able to use AI as a tool is really important, right?

[00:27:15]I don't think we should consider it to be the enemy in any way that's going to take away my job. Right? Always whenever there's new technology, right? Whenever there's new technology, new technology destroys old jobs and and creates new jobs, right? That term creative destruction, right? It was famously during the the industrial revolution, right? You have new machines that do things that people used to do by hand.

[00:27:35]Now, seriously, if you learned how to if you were somebody who who knew how to make thread by hand, using cotton to make thread, and now you got a, you know, a loom that does whatever or um then yeah, you might you might lose your job, and that's and that's a bad thing for you. But overall, but in in the in the larger picture is there's actually more people that are going to gain jobs than people who are going to lose jobs, right? You do have to worry about the people going to lose jobs and try to, you know, figure but right now we're talking about but I think what our conversation is you're a young person starting out where should you build your skills, right? And I think the necessary skills have changed >> recently. Okay. And the necessary skills are how to use AI as a tool, >> not to stop your brain from thinking, but to complement what your brain is doing. Right. Right. If you use AI saying, "Well, I don't need to think anymore. Let's let AI do everything for me," you're you're definitely not doing it right. But if you say, "Look, this is what I'm trying to do. AI is going to, you know, rough AI is going to do this.

[00:28:30]that if I can sort of ask it the right way to do things for me and I can try to think about where is it helpful where is it not helpful where it can expand what I'm trying to do where where it can improve what I'm trying to do then if you're if you're somebody who knows how to use AI well then you're going then your skills are going to be more valuable we are back with professor Dr. David Goldright. Sir, you designed the Rottman Commerce program in its present day essentially.

[00:29:00]>> Well, I I redesigned it, right? I I I took over Rottman Commerce back in 2015.

[00:29:06]I became the director of Rottman Commerce and we did a lot of work on the curriculum and the curriculum you see now, the courses that you were required to take.

[00:29:15]>> If you start pulling your hair out saying, "Why the heck do I have to take this? Why the heck why do I have to do that?"

[00:29:20]>> That's me. So math 133 entirely your >> no math math 13 no we used to have I mean math 133 was always there the eco courses um eco 101 eco 102 204 were all were all there but the Rothman courses the RSM courses >> okay >> right those have been um those have been wildly revamped uh since since back in the day >> and when you designed or redesigned Rottman Commerce what was going through your mind I don't want to name names like Western Ivy or Shoulick or maybe even Wharton. But were you thinking about Rottman Commerce's competition when you were >> to some extent? I I'll tell I'll tell you what was a thing because look, this is uft, right? UFT um um easily the the the best most renowned university in in Canada, right? It's it's a worldleading university. A lot of things that that U of does is that we're the best in Canada. Um, the MBA program is the best one in Canada. The medical school, the law school, and the undergraduate business program should be the best one in Canada. It should be the best one in Canada. But on the other hand, Ivy and Queens, I think, are excellent programs, right? Excellent programs. And in some respects, they're ahead of us, right?

[00:30:35]It's always we've always been ahead of them in terms of our students, if I can, if I can say so myself. Our students are the are have are the best students in terms of their analytical ability.

[00:30:44]They're the smartest students. And I don't care if I'm if I'm offending if anybody here's watching from from Western or or or or Queens, you know, if I offend you, too bad. Um, but you know, our students are are are the best students in, you know, their their their quantitative uh ability, their analytical ability. Um, and then when you take a look at what comes out of of our competitors, say um say say let's take take Western Ivy as as an example.

[00:31:12]um they have fantastic soft skills, interpersonal skills. And that's one of the things that we've been building on is trying to say that we want our students to have that as well because if we can maintain the the edge that we have on the analytics and if we can match them on the on the soft skills, right, that our students are ability to present well and write well and like that, then we then then then we win. Then we win. And that was sort of one of the things that was uh was uh driving. So I did I did keep an eye on the competition that brother because I think that I think that that that Rottman Commerce should should just be should just uh uh be there uh uh be there as as the number one uh undergraduate uh business program in Canada. It should be but we have we have some strong competitors and and and and I think I there's no shame at all in looking at your competitors and saying, "Hey, they do that well, right? They do that well. Let's steal that idea from them. Okay? let's let's try to imitate them on the things that they do well and let's continue doing the things that that that um we do well >> but I don't know if you want me to go down this path but in terms of of of the changes that we made in the program >> right um so so the changes we made in the program were were though so this idea about trying to build up what we have like the professional skills skills uh uh the set for professional skills has been an important development that's mostly kind of started when I was there but it's it's it's continued on very very well since I left uh no longer involved in the administration of Rottman Commerce. But in terms of the curriculum itself was very much prior to my time, let's back in the day, prior to my time, Rottman Commerce was known as as finance and accounting and we had lots of finance, we had lots of uh accounting. Um but that was kind of it was too heavily on that. And then I compared it to MBA programs, right? I spent most of my career at MBA, private MBA, but I spent most of my career teaching MBA programs. And if you take a look at MBA programs, what happens in an MBA program is you get these people coming in there. MBAs are usually two years. And in first year, you take one of everything.

[00:33:16]>> Okay?

[00:33:16]>> And then the second year is when you start specializing in what you have. And the idea is that when you take one of everything, you gives you a bigger picture of how an entire organization works. So if you're a finance person, you know what the marketing people are thinking about. you know the operations people in this strate you know a little bit about everything and and we felt I felt we felt that that's really important that our students if we want our students to become leaders in the future we want them we want every student to know at least something about finance something about accounting something about marketing something about operations something about organizational behavior something about strategy something about economics we've always been strong in economics >> um and it is that you take one of everything right and that's what we added into the program is basically one of everything. And we moved it down. It used to be that you wouldn't take most of any any any real Rottman courses until year two. We moved them down into year one. The course that I teach, RSM230, financial markets, is pretty much a newly developed course put into year one. Marketing is in year one.

[00:34:14]Accounting is in year one. Um they just move them into year one. And and then then there's more opportunities for them to to uh build up. And so those are those are some of the that was sort of one of the driving forces is to recognize that MBA programs do some really wonderful things with people.

[00:34:29]Let's try to use those ideas uh uh from MBA programs and and try to turn our students into them which I think also puts us much more in line with some of the best programs out there, right? It puts us in line certainly it's similar to the Wharton program. similar. It's, you know, it's similar to to I mean Ivy is is a little bit because they only start in year three and year four and they're kind of, you know, but that they have that same structure as well. Queens has that same structure. So, we moved into that structure as well. And again, I just thought that that we have the ability to do it. We have and and we just need it just needed the uh to get through, you know, get the courses redesigned and get get the curriculum redesigned. So, that's one of that's sort of an example of the types of things that uh we did. So if it is structured similarly to an MBA program in terms of >> in that respect in that respect >> do you think uh that means that it might be less important for rotten commerce students to get an MBA because they get that education in undergraduate >> I I don't think I don't think that's necessarily true. I don't think that's necessarily true. I you know obviously not everybody needs to get an MBA. Um but the idea of an MBA program is you first of all you start MBA programs almost always students come in with a number of years work experience you know at least two three probably t more typically five years of work experience and one of the good things about an MBA program is that students are coming from diverse backgrounds. Some of the students are coming with a commerce undergraduate some of them are coming with an engineering some of them are coming with a a humanities background. You have this you have this diversity in the classroom from people with all sorts of different industry experiences. People learn from each other. I'm a fan of MBAs, okay, as you can tell, right? People people learn from each other who from from their from their classmates who have have all these different experiences. Um, and then they come and then when they come to the classroom though, if I were to teach finance in an MBA classroom, as I did for many, many years, so some of the students have never seen it before, right? If you have a history background and you're in an MBA program, you haven't seen it before. But if you have a commerce background and you come into my finance classroom, right, those equations are going to look familiar.

[00:36:32]You're going to see net present value.

[00:36:34]You're going to see weighted average cost of capital.

[00:36:36]>> So that never goes away.

[00:36:37]>> So that never goes away, but it changes.

[00:36:40]>> It's different because the difference is that when you're an undergraduate, you can I try to have you understand these concepts and how to think about it. But when you have five years work experience and you understand something about how industry works and how whatever wherever you work each student is going to have work experience in a different area right but then it has it's a new context to think about it that's why a lot of business schools for example a lot of MBA programs they use the case method when they use the case method what they're doing is they're saying it's not just about the equations it's about applying the equations in unusual cases so yeah you've seen the equation before >> but now that you're somebody who's older, more mature with some experience.

[00:37:20]Now, let's think about how this applies to the real world. I mean, I mean, and one thing I have to say, you know, you're one of my undergraduate students, but one difference between undergraduate students and MBA students is that MBA students having had a number of years work experience. For them, it's much easier for them to understand that the models in the classroom are merely models. The real world is more complicated than the classroom, right?

[00:37:46]And I can tell you that as an undergraduate, but you don't see it. But if you were working for 5 years, you would actually feel it. You would say, "Oh, that's the equation." Yeah, but there are all these other real world complications out there. And how does this model how does this equation work in a world that this with with this imperfect world where things are not quite right? So the model gives you a framework to think about things and then older students MBAs are usually more more uh equipped to deal with the imperfections of the world and recognize that the that the how the understand how the models do and don't fit into uh real world situations. So if any of my undergraduates, yeah, graduate, graduate, get out there, work for a few years. You want to come back and get an MBA. It's a good thing. You'll know the equations, but it's it's it's a different experience. Taking finance when you're 28 years old is different than taking finance when you're 19 years old.

[00:38:43]So I'm not asking you to pick a side, sir, but if you had to, which one do you like teaching more? The undergraduates or the executive MBAs or the MBAs?

[00:38:54]>> You can ask me to pick a side. I love my undergraduates. I love my undergraduates. I'll tell you, there's pros and cons to it. There's pros and cons to it, right? The thing that I get from my MBAs, right? And like I spent most of my career teaching MBAs, right?

[00:39:07]The things that I get from my MBAs is is that I can learn. They're coming from different they have they have a uh number of years work experience they they're coming in with knowledge but each one has knowledge from their own particular industry their own particular role within that industry and and and I learn from them right because I don't have that work I've been an academic my whole life so by talking to my MBAs I hear what what goes on in their industries and I learn stuff about industry I learn things from them about how the real world works that again that is is is wonderful and and and and and That that was that's been great. That's been great. But for quite a few number of years now, not quite a decade, but almost a decade, I've been teaching undergraduates primarily.

[00:39:49]To me, the the the the um oh, what's the word that that I'm looking? It's it's a privilege for me to teach undergraduates. I love teaching my undergraduates, right? They don't have that aspect. But what I do get from my undergraduates is I get these smart kids, if I may say so, right? these smart kids that are coming there, enthusiastic kids coming into the classroom who want to do well, who have all sorts of ambitions and dreams about what they want to do and they want to learn and they're coming in with that with the with that intelligence but without preconceived notions about how the world works and the idea that I am the one to sort of teach them here's how you think about business, here's how you think about markets and I'm able to influence influence the way that they think about business and markets. There's no way I could do that with MBAs. Right here, I've got this generation of young people that think about markets the way that they should think about I was about to say the way that I the way that I think about markets. No, that's not important.

[00:40:53]The important thing is that they're thinking about markets in the correct way. They don't have they don't have like their old way of thinking stuck in them. Right. Right. Dealing with people with experience, the good thing is they're experienced. The bad thing about it is that they can be stuck in their ways and and not open to new ways of thinking about it. Right? My undergraduate is more of a blank slate.

[00:41:10]Smart kids and I can sort of explain to them, you know, and we have this whole discussion about how how business is about creating goods and services creates value that that creates prosperity and and and all tied into this net present value criterion that we talk so much about in class. Um um to me it's a privilege to be able to do that.

[00:41:30]and sir, it's been a privilege to have you on today. Thank you so much.

[00:41:34]>> Thank you very much for coming by and thank you very much.

[00:41:36]>> A few more questions.

[00:41:37]>> Happy to chat with you. Always wonderful to chat with you.

[00:41:39]>> Thank you. So,