Lionel Shriver - Author of "A Better Life" (THE SAAD TRUTH_2022)

Added: 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]I'm delighted to report that I have joined as a scholar the Declaration of Independence Center for the Study of American Freedom at the University of Mississippi. The center offers educational opportunities, speakers, internship, and reading groups for the University of Mississippi community. It is named in honor of the United States founding document which constitutes the nation as a political community and expresses fundamental principles of American freedom including in the recognition of the importance of Judeo-Christian values in shaping American exceptionalism. Dedicated to the academic and open-minded exploration of these principles, the center exists to encourage exploration into the many facets of freedom. It will sponsor a speaker series and an interdisciplinary faculty research team. If you'd like to learn more about the center, please visit Miss, that's oles.edu/independence/ Hi everybody, this is Gats. Today I've got a another a fellow Harper Collins author, Lionel Shrivever. How are you doing?

[00:01:15]>> I'm very well and I I always like to meet other writers uh with the same publisher >> in and not only same publisher, same publicist at the publisher. Correct.

[00:01:28]>> Perhaps even more important >> even more. So we really are >> especially this publish. So she she she is a a honey badger as I like to say.

[00:01:38]She she's assiduous in her uh you know in her mission. So uh I think we can all both agree to that. Let me before we get going uh discussing your latest book and other great stuff. I just want to mention uh to the people who may not know who you are. So you've published I think 17 novels. Is that the right number? Is it 16 or 17?

[00:01:57]>> I think it's 17.

[00:01:59]>> Okay. 17 novels. also a few uh collection of essays of other writings sort of like toms compendiums. Uh you've been a column col columnist with the spectator since 2017 and your journalistic work has been featured in you know many outlets including the Guardian, the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. I won't read all 17 novels, but I will mention that your most I guess your most sold the most. We need to talk about Kevin over 1 million sold. That is unbelievable. You're you're you're in a very rarified world.

[00:02:35]But today we're talking about your latest, which is this beauty right here.

[00:02:39]A Better Life came out earlier this year. Maybe we could start there. Tell us what the premise is here and we can take it from there.

[00:02:47]Uh it's a novel that's focused on contemporary immigration.

[00:02:52]It uh took its cue from uh an announcement by then mayor of New York City Eric Adams uh that he was going to start paying regular New Yorkers to put up migrants in their spare bedrooms. Uh this was during the u migration crisis of the Biden administration of 2023 to 24. And uh Adams was starting to get desperate, but he never followed through on that program. And when I first heard about it, I thought, well, that that is a great setup for a novel. And then when he didn't bring it to life, I knew I had to do so for him.

[00:03:40]So, it's a it's it's a story of uh a mother who is living with her adult uh son uh in uh Dipmas Park in Brooklyn.

[00:03:52]That's a very uh beautiful part of Brooklyn, really big house, and it's just the two of them. So she participates in this program and agrees to take in a single migrant, a female uh and this is over the dead body of her son who is much more conservative than his mother who's of of course you know like so many New Yorkers a good progressive >> course >> and and he doesn't especially welcome the intrusion of a stranger into his um his blissfully uneventful life.

[00:04:34]So >> it does not end up being uh uh it just the story does not stop there of course because the woman uh whom the mother has invited doesn't turn out to be the last migrant living in the house >> is the so when I write my books which are non-fictional and I I told you offline that one of the things I want to talk about is are the deferring processes of how you write fiction versus non-fiction. So I have sort of a a vision in mind what would be sort of the the key takeaway of my non-fictional book. So my earlier books would be how do you incorporate evolutionary psychology in studying human behavior in general and consumer behavior in particular. Later I got into you know cultural commentary looking at what what is affecting so negatively the west. In your case, you I mean, you're trying to make a point. So, you and I might might come at a criticism of open border policies, you know, and we're sympath.

[00:05:37]But you choose the fictional form. I choose the non-fictional form. Is it because that's the the mode that you're most comfortable in or is it a conscious decision? I think I can persuade people about some of the lunacy more so if I tell it through a storytelling mechanism.

[00:05:55]Well, first off, I've been a professional novelist my entire adult life. So, it's my job. And when I'm taking on a book-sized project, I more or less assume that it's going to be fiction. Partly because that's what I like to read. And I, you know, on the rare occasions that I have conceded to teach creative writing, I always urge students to to write what they would want to read. So I if you if you give me a choice uh with my free time am I going to pick up a novel or a non-fiction book I I will always reach for the novel. of I think not to do down the difficulty of of writing a an excellent non-fiction book and I have regard for that but I think that the novel is is a more difficult form is a more challenging form and it has a lot more leeway in it. I I enjoy uh the fact that it has virtually no rules and and the few rules that you can site you can break.

[00:07:03]>> Right. So I I like that. Uh it's actually it's it's actually what makes the form so intimidating is that it has no limits. Uh I I think storytelling is an ancient way of getting a point across. Even non-fiction uses storytelling all the time. Some of the best and most persuasive uh non-fiction uh is illustrative. You know, it has many in inset stories or maybe the author uh him or herself also has a personal story. But story is is what engages our imagination and and it's also what makes abstract arguments real. So that's that's actually a you know we both use narrative in in and You know, it's a it's the whole idea of fiction is a little weird when there's so many people out there already with their their real stories. Why do you have to make up things that never happened? But there is something about the process of making something up that in some ways becomes it becomes more real than stories of of of about about real people because you you start with from the point of absolutely nothing and therefore everything has to be created has to be summoned and I find that alchemy fascinating and I I I one of the things I like about it is that it is um it is a process that I have to undergo in the same way that the reader does. So I have to convince myself that these people exist and there's a point at which you actually buy your own lies.

[00:09:02]>> Yeah. Right now >> I like that I like I like I like the mystery of that process and and I honestly I never tire of it. I I'll I'll come back in a second to you know uh erect a bridge between fiction and actually my work and evolutionary psychology. But let's let's table that that discussion for a second. I I I liked what you were talking about in terms of the the creative process of how you start with nothing. You know, so I've often said that when I'm writing my non-fiction books, there is both the element that you speak of. there's the bottom up organic element which I would not have apprei thought that I'd be going down that alley and that that just arises during the process of of you know of my gathering the research and you know thinking through whatever it is I want to say but then there is a bottomdown a priori process right I mean I I have a general idea how the narrative of my book is going to unfold there are at least these you know eight chapters that I'm thinking of covering ing which of course might change a bit but it's a mixture of both bottom up processes and top down processes whereas what you're saying I think is it's almost exclusively driven by bottom up processes. So >> actually that's not true in my case.

[00:10:21]There are a lot of novelists who do work that way and they're just feeling their way in a fog and don't even know what's going to happen on the next page. That's not how I write. Uh, I do, uh, map out a book ahead of time. I know how the book ends >> without without, uh, so, and it sometimes surprises people that >> why would you do that? That just sounds so flat and and wouldn't you want to just be curious what happens in the same way that your reader is? And actually, that's it. The weird thing about having a game plan, which saves you a lot of trouble actually, um, is that it doesn't help that much. And I think that's one of the biggest differences. I mean, the writing is everything. And I can design a character in the abstract. I can design a plot in the abstract, but it doesn't make it happen on the page. So, it's it's always fascinating to me how little that outline really achieves, how little solace it is. It doesn't really get you that far because it's the actual writing that is everything is going to make or break the book.

[00:11:48]>> Got you. Uh as promised, I'm going to now try to link it link your world of fictional writing with my world in evolutionary psychology. So there is a field uh called Darwinian literary criticism. Are you at all familiar with that term?

[00:12:04]>> No, I'm not. I'm curious.

[00:12:05]>> Oh, great. So I'm always excited when I sort of introduce a new a new concept to a guest. So Darwinian literary criticism basically argues and I think it's going to resonate well with you. It basically argues that the reason why fictional literature uh titillates our senses engages our imagination is because ultimately it is a window to our evolved human nature. So if you look if you do a content analysis of all great literature whether it be some Japanese form 500 years ago or some Uru story from Pakistan or some Arabic story there is a few universal themes that we are absolutely sure are going to pull at our strings in exactly the same way irrespective of when you're reading it or where you're reading it which temporal period paternity uncertainty sexual longing sibling rivalry parent child, you know, parent offspring conflicts. And so there's a few of these templates, but then can be delivered in completely different ways. But underneath all that difference lays those lay those universals. So well, first, what do you what do you think of that? What do you think of that theory trying to link sort of the natural sciences to an art form like literature?

[00:13:25]>> I think there's something sound in that.

[00:13:26]Um I am probably best known as a novelist who takes on contemporary social issues which I have not done in every book and do not feel obligated to to do in every book. U but yes I my work tends to be a little more political than a lot of my contemporaries.

[00:13:52]Um that that means that of course I'm in danger of dating myself that you know history moves on the newspaper moves on uh and these issues may not any longer be that gerine but the the book will survive if I have tapped into a deeper and more eternal vein of human experience.

[00:14:26]>> Exactly. So that that speaks to what I'm saying.

[00:14:28]>> So you know even if I mean that we need to talk about Kevin you mentioned is the books that has sold the most copies. Um, even if school shootings, which that novel addresses, had completely ceased to be a social problem, I think that book would continue to resonate with with readers. And that's because what it really touches on, you mentioned parent child relationships in that list of and that's what this is about. And it's about it's about a mother's relationship to her child who is the the mass killer at his high school and the resolution of that relationship and her her anxiety that he turned out as he did because she didn't love him enough.

[00:15:28]And that problem is not going away. the bonding problem with your own children, the anxiety about whether you're cut out to be a mother or a parent, that's going to go that's forever. And if if a novel takes on a social issue but does not reach those groundwaters, the aquifers of human experience, then it will be a crap book and it will not last.

[00:16:01]>> Right? And I would say if you write a narrative in your fictional work that is inconsistent or in congruent with human nature, it will likely fail. And so let me let me just give you one or two examples off the top of my head. So I remember in my uh first book, it was an academic book where I was doing a content analysis of various cultural products, art, film, you know, u uh literature, poetry, song lyrics. Uh, I said, "Well, look, if you if you look at the types of things that male singers sing about versus female singers in wildly different time periods across wildly different linguistic, you know, heritage, you all, it's never the women that are more likely to be singing about the beauty of men. It's always the women who are going to be denigrating the social status of a man. That's how you denigrate a man. So there are certain again to our earlier point certain universal themes. So take for example I don't know if you remember the the the movie with uh Demi Moore and Robert Redford Indecent Proposal. Do you remember that movie?

[00:17:19]>> I don't I don't remember it, >> you know. Okay. So it was I think I I hope I'm not wrong.

[00:17:24]>> Remind me.

[00:17:25]>> Yeah. So I think it was 1993 maybe. It's a movie about a rich industrialist, a dashing guy, Robert Redford, uh, who, uh, meets this young sort of idealistic couple, our love will conquer everything, played by Woody Harelson and the Mi Moore. And as they're chatting while playing, you know, pool in some, you know, bar, uh, they intimate to him that there are some things that can't be bought. And so he decides to put this to the test by proposing an indecent proposal which is I'll give you a million dollars if I could have a night with your wife. Now, of course, that creates a huge tension and but the screenwriters who wrote that, while they may not call themselves evolutionary psychologists, are actually Darwinian beings that understand what resonates in their minds and in the minds of the audience, which is if it were the opposite. If it were Oprah Winfrey that meets the couple and we and she says to the wife, "Give me a million. I'll give you a million dollars if you can go with your husband." the wife is certainly more likely to say, "Here's the check.

[00:18:38]Here's the Zurich bank account, and don't let the door hit your asses on the way out." Right? Not not because women, you know, don't mind uh you know, infidelity, but the the psychic pain of sexual infidelity looms much larger in a man's psyche, if only because of paternity uncertainty. We know. So men have evolved the cognitive, behavioral, emotional system to thwart the greatest threat to them, which is we're a biparental species. I don't want to be investing 18 years in a baby that turns out to look like the really sexy gardener that used to come to our house.

[00:19:14]And so literature, film, what you write about, if you're doing a good job, I read that and I go, that resonates with exactly what I expect humans to act like. Does that make sense?

[00:19:27]Yes. And and and novelists are always uh also exploring uh the violation of of those rules and the you know Kevin famously the mother doesn't love her son. I mean that's against the rules. um that's against evolutionary rules, right?

[00:19:51]>> And and in fact, it tends to break standard narrative rules. That's is that the mother-son relationship is sacred and I violated that. So novels experiment with breaking the Darwinian rules, but of course by the end of the novel, they have reconciled. So you break the rule in order to verify the the rule.

[00:20:18]interesting. What's your typical um you know regiment when you're writing? So in my case for example I mean there are there are many sort of principles that I might use but certainly I'm very dogged and disciplined in that it becomes very easy for me you know I I lead a you know a busy life as I'm sure you do for me to say well maybe not today I don't have to write but no every single day I could be suffering from a nasty bronchitis I'm going to sit down and try to you know uh go through 200 300 400 words. Do you have such mechanisms that you sort of try to abide by so that you can get Harper Collins that book on time?

[00:21:02]>> Um, no.

[00:21:04]>> Really? You're free.

[00:21:06]>> If I have a book on, I try to get to it.

[00:21:09]If I can't for for whatever reason, I don't freak out. It's not going anywhere. Um, I tend, you know, I when I first started out, I was very rigid and I had rules and I had uh word counts that I had to meet. That's fundamentally fearful and expresses a lack of faith in yourself and after that many books uh I have faith in my ability to get the job done sooner or later. So no, no, it's not. I'm fairly relaxed about the whole thing.

[00:21:48]>> Do you like to work? Uh, and I mean I'm asking these questions because I know for a fact that there are, you know, everybody is an aspiring actor, aspiring author even if they've never written anything, right? So they are >> no more more importantly, everyone is an aspiring writer even if they never read anything.

[00:22:06]>> Fair enough. Uh so so it's in that spirit that you know I want the people who are listening to us and certainly the people who want to write fiction.

[00:22:14]I'm sitting and chatting with someone who's done it very well for many years.

[00:22:18]You know I I I'm speaking as you now I I like to work with music in the background or no it has to be completely quiet. I like to work in my cave in my study or no I need to get out and be in a cafe. give us a sense of, you know, where it is that you can paint your canvas in an optimal manner.

[00:22:37]>> I I do better it in in my study. I don't tend to write in hotel rooms.

[00:22:45]>> Fair enough. Uh what about we were talking earlier uh cuz you said hotel rooms, so it made me think of uh travel.

[00:22:53]Uh I know that you live partly in Portugal. A few years ago, my family and I for the first time ever went to the Algarve. Kind of covered almost all of it, the whole coast. Loved it. What made you decide to go to that enchanting country?

[00:23:11]>> Uh, we had friends who moved here in advance and scoped it out. Uh, so we already had a small readymade social circle. Um, and I was ready to leave the UK where I had lived for 36 years. So, some of it was negative. It was a sense that the UK was in a state of profound decay and I didn't have to go down with the ship.

[00:23:42]>> That explains, by the way, I I I think I hadn't coded that you lived in the UK.

[00:23:46]That explains why you you and I pronounce the word is SS u very differently. I noticed that you pronounce it in a more British manner and I was kind of confused.

[00:23:57]>> Yeah, that's right. It we I wouldn't say it this way. Right.

[00:24:00]>> My pronunciation is not nearly as screwed up as it really should be.

[00:24:06]>> But uh >> by screwed up it means more British.

[00:24:09]>> Um yes, it should be more British than it is. But we both know that Americans detest other Americans who adopt English accents. So, uh I don't know how conscious it was, but I I more or less resolved to resist uh putting on heirs as our compatriots would perceive them. and um and have kept my American accent. So um with with with some with some resolution and I think that was I think that ex is an expression of self-respect.

[00:24:54]>> Fair enough. Uh I know that >> by the way I would add that I I lived for 12 years in Northern Ireland and there and that is a very infectious accent.

[00:25:06]It did change the way I talk. It took me a long time to get over that, but I finally decided, and it was a conscious decision to to bring back my original accent. I thought that the the adoption of some of the local llt uh was was an expression of a desire to please.

[00:25:35]>> Gotcha. U that's not attractive.

[00:25:39]>> Authenticity is important. Yes.

[00:25:42]>> Uh tell me you I I I I was looking through some of the material and I think one of the topics that you were you were more than happy to talk about and I can understand why is sort of the wokeism you know parasitic stuff that's in the publishing industry. Uh I can imagine when you're writing a book that in one form or another is anti-open immigration policy. I can imagine how many, you know, publishers would huff and puff at at the audacity of saying that not everyone should be equally welcome and so on. But is this something that you've been experiencing, I mean, throughout your career where you may have a political bent that's somewhat to the right of the typical publisher and that you've had to deal with? And if yes, maybe you can tell us about how you navigated that. Um my orientation politically probably started splitting off uh from the more acceptable progressive path especially around 2010 or so. Um and I think you can see that in the work. Uh I was raised as a liberal democrat and my transformation uh into what I have finally resolved uh to call conservatism um was gradual. Although living in Northern Ireland uh was a big contribution because liberal Democrats at that time and this was during the troubles were big supporters of the IRA and as soon as I got to Belfast I found the IRA completely repulsive um morally and also personally. So uh that made that clasped me in the context of that conflict uh more conservative.

[00:27:41]Uh but it has been uh tricky to navigate uh publishing and literary circles as one of the only conservative fiction writers in the western world as far as I can tell. I mean, if you can name some others, I'd love to meet them, but it's it it >> try to meet a conservative professor, it's even less likely.

[00:28:09]>> Exactly. And I it's that has been a complicated situation. Um, in some ways, I have benefited from being one of the only conservative fiction writers in the Western world because that obviously gives me some prominence.

[00:28:29]um that uh and and very little competition. On the other hand, it also means that lots of people hate me and that would include uh some of the reviewers of my new book. And I would say that a better life probably takes more risks than any of the other previous books because I regard uh immigration as probably the ultimate litmus test as to whether you are on the left or right. I mean, there really is no such thing as a progressive Democrat in the United States that is a who who is uh has a restrictionist perspective on immigration.

[00:29:15]You wouldn't call yourself progressive if you did. And it it just seems like this is this issue is the dividing line.

[00:29:23]Now, I you know, because it is a book of fiction, it isn't a pmic. It isn't arguing a strike straight line um policy perspective. It isn't it isn't aiming to persuade you of a very specific thesis as one would in non-fiction. And there are many pitfalls to writing about this divisive a subject in fiction. Obviously, if you take it on with in non-fiction, you have a premise, you mostly put opposing arguments to knock them down. I can't do that. If I put opposing arguments in the book, and there are opposing arguments in the book, uh they have to be persuasive, which is a little tricky because I I am uh completely forthright in in non-fiction in my spectator columns that I am an immigration restrictionist. I don't believe in open borders. I would completely get rid of the asylum system, for example.

[00:30:38]Uh but in fiction I have to put all that aside and and I find that interesting. I mean I that is it's a good discipline. So it there are a lot of arguments about immigration in this book but both sides have to be wellargued.

[00:31:02]I can't stack the deck too much or, you know, I I show my hand and and therefore I come across as a propagandist, >> right?

[00:31:15]>> And in fact, that's one of the big differences again between non-fiction and and fiction because in non-fiction, you're expected to have a line that you're hawking. But in fiction, you're not really supposed to be having a non-fiction line that you're hawking. Um maybe in relation to those deep waters we were talking about, right? That would be okay that you have a perspective on romantic love or something and but not that you want to to eliminate the asylum system.

[00:31:58]you can't, you know, that's just not going to fly artistically.

[00:32:03]And and but it's also a little tricky when when I, you know, one of my ambitions is was to explore the immigration issue. I find it fascinating. I've been interested in immigration for at least 30 years.

[00:32:19]I was I was thinking as when when you started your answer, you're saying, you know, I'm one of the only, if not the I guess not the only, but one of the only conservative fiction writers. I was thinking in other genres where we would have a similar reality. And so I thought about when I first moved to Canada, we moved from Lebanon in the mid70s and one of the shows that I think shaped me very early on, which was very much of a political show where a sitcom, one of the characters was very conservative, although you may not want to claim him because he was somewhat spicy in some of his bigotry. Do you know do you know where I'm going with this? Do you know which show I'm thinking of? Let's see if we're sympath. There used to be a a comedy in the early to mid70s where really the underlying current was always about social issues. Any thoughts that come to mind?

[00:33:14]>> This is the second city.

[00:33:15]>> I was going to say all in the family. So >> Oh, all in the family. Yeah, I loved all in the family.

[00:33:20]>> Right. So, all in the family, I mean, when I was a kid, I mean, yes, I understood it, but at at a at a certain level, right? I was 11, 12, having recently come to the United States learning English when I've seen subsequently clips from it. You know, it deals with many issues that are eternal, right? Uh that that are as relevant today. Now, the way that they deliver the dialogue might be considered incredibly risque today, but it's still dealing with the same issues. So it seems as though really like in every possible artistic endeavor as is the case in academia you could count on one hand the number of conservatives so in journalism in film in television in fiction writing everywhere why do you think that is why do you think all the intelligencia I mean I've got of course my own answers but I'd like to hear yours why is it so astoundingly tilted to the I find it a little puzzling. I have some answers, but I don't think they're sufficient. Um, I think conservatives tend to be more practical in terms of just their choices of profession and the arts are a bad bet in general. I mean, my career has ended up being successful in the end, but it wasn't for a long time. And it and my parents' concerns about my choice of career were wellounded. I I was insulted by those concerns to begin with and now as a an older and more mature adult I am very sympathetic with with their worries for my future. Um, so and I think that the fact that especially in recent times, people in the arts have usually gone to university and that would not have previously been the case like in the 1800s.

[00:35:31]Um, that's an ingredient also because as we know the universities are infected with left-wing ideology and that has been the case for quite some time. So, so people in the arts would usually be uh products of a certain kind of indoctrin indoctrination.

[00:35:56]But why would why would creative people as a class be leftwing?

[00:36:06]I can propose I can propose something.

[00:36:09]Uh and I mean there are several possible mechanisms, but one of which to sort of build on what you just said, I think that leftist folks wake up every day with an existential angst about the current reality, the status quo, right?

[00:36:26]They live in an evil capitalist society that's Islamophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, living on stolen land, and so on. Around the corner lays unicornia.

[00:36:38]So if only we can, you know, get rid of >> I like that unicornia.

[00:36:43]>> You like that, huh? Uh so if we can get rid of the current status quo, then we can create that beautiful world that really we we are all deserving of. And one of the ways by which I can instantiate instantiate my journey to unicornia is through the arts where I'm not restricted. I'm I'm I could be fully decoupled from reality while I spin all of my ideological I think that might be one possible explanation. What do you think?

[00:37:16]>> H >> but it speaks to your point about practicality, right? That you said that.

[00:37:20]>> Yeah.

[00:37:20]>> And by the way, you see that be sorry I I interrupted before I gave you a chance to answer the previous comment. Uh you see it for example in the distribution of political orientations within medicine. So the the the orthopedic surgeon, the anesthesiologist, the uh urologist, if if memory serves me right, very practical. Just you you got to fix the Achilles tendon. You've got to administer the right amount of an anesthesia given this person's sex and weight. Uh it's very practical. It's very clear. There isn't the intrusion of ideology. the most leftist fields, infectious disease, pediatrics, and psychiatry have a much greater degrees of freedom for ideological to come in. And so I think that might explain what we're talking about.

[00:38:16]>> Um there it may also be an ingredient that conservatives tend to be more contented.

[00:38:24]>> Yeah, exactly. And actually the research supports what you're saying because in my previous book and my happiness book I I discuss you know the the the ubiquity of research that has found that conservatives score higher on happiness than do uh the progressives to your point.

[00:38:43]>> Yes. Much and it's a significant difference.

[00:38:46]>> Yeah indeed.

[00:38:48]>> And and there may be something about being drawn to the arts that suggests a an anst or a a desire to resolve something.

[00:39:00]>> Yeah, indeed.

[00:39:01]>> That uh that if you're truly contented, you're not tortured in that way and you don't you don't need to create something to sort something out because everything's fine >> or at least maybe not perfect, but I I mean I wake up every morning, I say, I've got a great family. I've got a great profession. I live in the freest society possible. It's not perfect, but I'm not, you know, painting my hair blue and going to free Palestine rallies, right? Because to your point, I am content. I live in a great society. I'm happy. I've got existential gratitude.

[00:39:37]Uh I want to go back to uh fiction uh quickly. Uh in your in this book, let me put it up again so that people could go get it.

[00:39:46]Better Life came out a few months ago.

[00:39:48]Go get it, people. Uh you said that Eric Adams had you know was trying to enact some policy. Hey invite people into your home because we want to be kind and empathetic. So that might have been the trigger for the eventual book. Is it always that mechanism for all your books? You see something that happens in society and then you say aha I think I just found the topic of my next book.

[00:40:14]And if if yes okay great. If not, how do you come up? What's what's your next book going to be about? Or do you not know it yet?

[00:40:23]>> Yeah, I know it.

[00:40:25]>> But you don't want to talk about it.

[00:40:27]>> No, not really. I'm struggling with it.

[00:40:30]Um, I'm, you know, I've wanted to write a novel about immigration for a long time, but having a topic is not having an idea for a book.

[00:40:42]So, it was only when I heard about Eric Adams and his announcement, and I'd been following what was happening in New York with increasing horror, um, that was an idea for a book. That was a a circumstance, a premise that had a lot in it. It would it would allow for uh a lot to happen. And it was it was that's just that's not a topic. When you have a topic, you don't have a book. Uh so it it takes some little trigger that gives you a a circumstance that that is going to produce story.

[00:41:26]>> Right. Makes sense. Okay. I was going to I was going to try usually when I end my conversations I say if you've got anything to plug like the next project, this is your time to do it. But you said you don't want to discuss your the the next book that's simmering in your mind.

[00:41:40]Is there anything else that you would like to uh share with us, plug, promote other than this guy right here?

[00:41:50]>> No, I'm promoting that book. That's my job right now. And I I would just say that um fiction writers have written about immigration for many many years, but they almost always tell the story from the perspective of the immigrant.

[00:42:10]And this is one of the only books I know of that takes account of the experience of the host population, what it's like to be in a place that is being inundated with strangers from somewhere else. And it is a novel that is sympathetic with that experience even if it sometimes rouses uh unattractive emotions like resentment and consternation.

[00:42:41]Um but I think that most of the United States falls into the category of the characters in my book.

[00:42:52]they are the host population who whose experience is often completely discounted both in politics and certainly in literature. So if you would like that perspective fairly represented, this is the book for you.

[00:43:12]>> Wonderful. Stay on the line so we could say goodbye one more time. A better life. Check it out. Thank you so much for coming on. Stay on the line and pleasure meeting you.

[00:43:22]>> Nice to meet you too.

[00:43:23]>> Cheers.